# Sticky  Gen 1 Tuning Comparision Thread



## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

THIS IS A COPY AND PASTE OF A MUCH LATER POST IN ORDER TO TRY AND GROUP SOME PERTINENT POSTS
This post is by @72chevman

Tim at ZZP did a great job on my 16 Limited. We went back and forth seven times before he was 100% happy with the tune.
It was so weak when I bought it. With my scangauge I never saw more than 13PSI. Now I've seen 20. The car was just plain lackluster, It's now actually fun to drive.
I added their Downpipe at the same time as the tune. I did one step colder plugs, AEM cold air and Magnaflow muffler prior to tune and ZZP mid-pipe afterwards.
The trans shifts so much quicker all the time, not just when driving hard. It will now bark the tires when it hits 2nd gear when you are really in the gas pedal.
I just got 35MPG average on a 1800mile trip (No A\C). I try and use ethanol free 91 when I can, which is found at Caseys in the midwest. Most of this trip was 65-75 MPG. I'll get over 40 if running 60-65 which we do in Rural WI where speed limits are 55 thru the hills, trees and around all the lake communities.
On our trips across Kansas to Colorado at 80MPG I get 32MPG, 30 if AC is on.
In the Flint Hills of KS and the Mountains of CO, this car never loses more than 1MPH going up steep grades, and thats without it downshifting. Boost is a wonderful thing

2016 Limited LT, ZZP Tune, ZZP DP, ZZP Mid Pipe, AEM Cold Air, Magnaflow muffler, 35% Ceramic tint, 215/55/17 W Rated Continental tires on DR-33 wheels, added OEM Driving lights
2013 Cruze LS 35% Ceramic Tint, 2016 16" 5 spoke Alloy Wheels

The original post: Gen 1 Tuning Comparision Thread


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

This is a tune review for *Vermont Tuning.*

Car Details:
2015 Chevrolet Cruze LT
1.4L RPO Code: LUJ
Automatic Transmission
I don't have any concrete power info yet.

Current Engine Modifications:
Vermont Tuning E85 Flex Fuel Tune
Injen Cold Air Intake
ZZP Intercooler Package
ZZP Throttle Body Spacer
460cc Deatschwerks Fuel Injectors
Ported Intake Manifold
Mishimoto Oil Catch Can
MSD Ignition Coil
ZZP Downpipe
ZZP Catted Mid Pipe
Magnaflow Stainless Catback Exhaust

I have been tuned by Vermont Tuning for 7 months. They are one of the lesser known options for tuning. I originally choose Vermont Tuning because they offered tuning/scanning from a handheld, called an Autocal, as I "traded in" my 12 year old laptop for a new desktop last spring.

In the beginning, things were a bit rocky. Mainly technical issues on my end involving my new PC. However this is how I discovered how great Vermont Tuning's customer service is. Brian, the owner/tuner, sat through countless troubleshooting conference calls with me on weekdays, evenings and even on the weekend!
He has always responded to my emails within hours. Even when a tune update is required.

As for power, there is no comparison versus the stock tune. Stock boost was around 15 psi. Right now I run 20 psi without a problem. I don't have any dyno numbers yet, but it will plant you in your seat and spin the tires through 1st and into second. (With traction control off of course)

As for fuel economy, before I switch to E85, my highway fuel economy actually increased by 6 MPG.

Cost for tune and Autocal: $550

I hope this review is helpful.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

I like this idea, I think we should also post cost as that can be a big determining factor.

I want to start this off by saying this is my opinion and an unbiased and honest review.


BNR Autocal Tune $600: BNRTUNE-CRUZE14-BNR Tune 2011-2016 Limited Chevrolet Cruze 1

2013 Cruze 1LT
1.4L
Automatic
195HP on auto cal, assumed 170WHP
ZZP downpipe | Forge wastegate actuator | Forge atmospheric bypass valve | MSD Coil | ZZP Big 3 kit

I have the older BNR EFILive BNR tune, they now offer HP Tuners. They are the same tune, but different technologies. To start off with, they send you a base tune. You flash this onto your vehicle and gather a log to send back to them. They will then analyze the log and make changes if needed. I didn’t need to have any done. The base tune makes a ridiculous amount of power over stock and your butt dyno will immediately know.

They offer retunes for no cost as well as for mods. My experience when requesting custom tunes has been about 50/50. I requested a higher PSI tune and it worked ok, but went into limp mode/overboost a lot. Enough to not be drivable enjoyable. The Eco tune I requested though is great! I noticed quite the increase in misfires on their tune versus stock, I assume this is due to timing and them advancing it to get more power, they assure me it is no issue. It’s usually under mid acceleration or after letting off the throttle from wide open.

I get better MPG on all of their tunes versus stock, even pushing 20PSI. I currently am running their normal canned base tune and it’s fine. If you floor it, it will spin the tires a bit in first and bark the tires when shifting to second (2nd gear scratch). Which to an automobile nut, is quite desirable 😃

Their response time on tunes is normally at least 2 weeks and all the way up to a month. To some this is an acceptable window, but to me it really isn’t. I love the power, but the tune replies are pretty much rushed and lacking. You can’t ask quesitons and just receive a new file and are told to load it up. I get it they’re busy, but a little more smoothness around the edges would be nice; as well as a faster response time. If you are marketing yourself as offering updates for free, they should be a bit more timely.

In the end they get the job done, and that is how some companies operate. I am not disappointed in any way.


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## cruze991 (Jan 4, 2020)

*Trifecta tune*
2012 eco 1.4L
Automatic

I was first just planning on getting their canned tune and not doing any upgrades. After the tune I wasn’t really satisfied and wanted more power. I paid the $180 to upgrade to their elite tune then got started on my mods. Downpipe, wastegate actuator, coil pack, and intake. Trifecta is great with their response times (usually a couple days). Don’t have dyno sheets but based off my MAF readings I peaked 185 whp or 220 at the crank. I asked for an aggressive tune but I’m not sure if that would change anything. My peak boost is 22 and it holds it all the way to redline.

Forgot to mention but I got a best 0-60 time of 6.7 seconds. Tested again yesterday but best I could get was 7.3 not sure what changed. Stock I’d get about 9.5 so it’s still a huge improvement.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> I like this idea, I think we should also post cost as that can be a big determining factor.


Good idea. I edited the original post to include cost.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

JLL said:


> I have been seeing a lot of questions lately among members about the various tuning options available for the Cruze. I'm creating this thread to aid those who are trying to make the decision of whether or not to tune their Cruze AND if they decide to tune it, which option they want to go with. *If you wish to post in this thread, please* *only post about YOUR OWN experience with a particular tuning service or personal tuning experience. *
> 
> In your post, please include the following information:
> 
> ...


Vehicle Year, Make, Model, Trim: 
2014 Chevy Cruze LT Fleet

Engine Size with RPO code:
Stock GM 1.4 Liter Turbo I4 Ecotec LUJ Engine

Transmission Type (automatic/manual)
Stock Automatic 

Vehicle Modifications (these are the relevant ones) 
93 octane fuel
Iridium plugs gapped to .024"
LTZ 18" rims (these are heavy)
Magnaflow Cat Back dual exhaust
TTR trans mount
DDMWorks Throttle Body Spacer
Cruze Kit V1.1
Trunk Junk

Name of Tuner/Tuning Software
Trifecta Performance* / Trifecta Elite*

Review of YOUR OWN experience with the Tuner/Tuning Software
Vince and Michael have provided me excellent customer service. I started corresponding with them fairly frequently in November of 2019. Aside from a weekend or holiday, the responses have been timely and they answered my odd questions as best as they could and they did not get frustrated with me as I tried to clarify what I was asking.

When I first drove the Cruze with the Trifecta Advantage (the "Stock" tune) I thought , this isn't bad, a little bit more according to the butt dyno. It was when I flipped the switch that things changed. I thought Wow!, I'm going to be getting more tickets I think. 

I did have them change my speedo by 1mph to match the GPS speed readout on my radar detector so I wouldn't be speeding more than I wanted to. I am glad to have spent the money on this even though 80% of the time I run the stock tune.  I purchased my tune 0n 01DEC2019 but did not install it until 29JUN20 and haven't looked back since. It took me so long as I wanted to also document the car at the track as I went along. Remember this also entailed waiting for three tankful's of premium to change the stock fuel tables.

Cost for Tuning:
$398.00 for a 2011--2015 Chevrolet Cruze / 2016 Cruze Limited - 1.4L Turbo Elite
_There is a cheaper tune for those who want to stay stock, it is $298.00 _


Dyno Sheet (If you have one) OR Screenshot of power numbers

Chevy Stock Tune on 87 Octane:
Iridium plugs gapped to .024"
LTZ 18" rims (these are heavy)










Chart on 87 octane fuel explained.








Stock Chevy Tune on 93 octane fuel:

Iridium plugs gapped to .024"
LTZ 18" rims (these are heavy)










Trifecta Advantage Tune on 93 octane:
Iridium plugs gapped to .024"
LTZ 18" rims (these are heavy)
TTR trans mount
ZZP Throttle Body Spacer
Cruze Kit V1.2

COMING SOON _ I HAVE TO REMEMBER WHER I STUCK IT!!


Trifecta Elite Tune on 93 octane:
Iridium plugs gapped to .024"
LTZ 18" rims (these are heavy)
TTR trans mount
ZZP Throttle Body Spacer
Cruze Kit V1.2











Trifecta Elite Tune on 93 octane:
Iridium plugs gapped to .024"
LTZ 18" rims (these are heavy)
Cat Back dual exhaust
TTR trans mount
ZZP Throttle Body Spacer
Cruze Kit V1.2
Trunk Junk

Coming this May...


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Blasirl said:


> Being re-edited


Thank you


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

cruze991 said:


> *Trifecta tune*
> 2012 eco 1.4L
> Automatic
> 
> I was first just planning on getting their canned tune and not doing any upgrades. After the tune I wasn’t really satisfied and wanted more power. I paid the $180 to upgrade to their elite tune then got started on my mods. Downpipe, wastegate actuator, coil pack, and intake. Trifecta is great with their response times (usually a couple days). Don’t have dyno sheets but based off my MAF readings I peaked 185 whp or 220 at the crank. I asked for an aggressive tune but I’m not sure if that would change anything. My peak boost is 22 and it holds it all the way to redline.


If you can, I would post the calculations you used to get those numbers.


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## cruze991 (Jan 4, 2020)

Blasirl said:


> If you can, I would post the calculations you used to get those numbers.


I get a maf reading in grams, and multiply it by 1.25 which gives me the horsepower at the wheels. I get about 140-145 g/s depending on the run but it adds up to 175-180 whp. I even asked trifecta for how much power I’m making based on the data logs and I got the same numbers. Not sure how accurate this calculation is but I’ve read it should be pretty close to a dyno.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

cruze991 said:


> I get a maf reading in grams, and multiply it by 1.25 which gives me the horsepower at the wheels. I get about 140-145 g/s depending on the run but it adds up to 175-180 whp. I even asked trifecta for how much power I’m making based on the data logs and I got the same numbers. Not sure how accurate this calculation is but I’ve read it should be pretty close to a dyno.


How does that work? By that theory you would be making horsepower at the wheels by reving it in park...


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> How does that work? By that theory you would be making horsepower at the wheels by reving it in park...


Look at this wise guy here


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> Look at this wise guy here


I do have a BSMET. I've never practiced it, but I have it.


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## cruze991 (Jan 4, 2020)

JLL said:


> How does that work? By that theory you would be making horsepower at the wheels by reving it in park...


Not sure lol but you can look it up it’s a thing. It’s not always at 180 whp its the peak and the number changes at various rpms. Mine makes peak power at third and fourth gear then drops off.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

@Cruzin2011 

Would you be interested in sharing on ZZP tuning?


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## Cruzin2011 (Jul 5, 2020)

JLL said:


> @Cruzin2011
> 
> Would you be interested in sharing on ZZP tuning?


Right now I don’t have much time but in the future sue.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

JLL said:


> I do have a BSMET. I've never practiced it, but I have it.


I am 4 or 5 classes away from the same degree, but I will probably never finish it.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

cruze991 said:


> Not sure lol but you can look it up it’s a thing. It’s not always at 180 whp its the peak and the number changes at various rpms. Mine makes peak power at third and fourth gear then drops off.


These are a few posts from the internet:

*Easy way to calculate HP? My MAF G/S is 382*
So after a little bit of digging it turns out that G/S MAF measurement gives a relatively good HP Estimate
This is what I found on the net
_N/A and Turbo Engine HP= MAF (g/s) * 1.25
Supercharged Engine HP=MAF (g/s) *1.1
N/A and Turbo Dynojet WHP manual= MAF (g/s) * 1.1
Supercharged Dynojet WHP manual =MAF (g/s) *0.95_

Using the 1.1 ratio I get 420 hp flywheel hp or 362 at the wheels on Dynojet
wow just as my car stock hp rating

Please share your results!
*__*


*MAF vs engine HP*


> I did analysis from my dyno puls vs logs and I got very consistent results with this math (this is average from many cars):
> 
> N/A and Turbo Engine HP= MAF (g/s) * 1.25
> Supercharged Engine HP=MAF (g/s) *1.1
> ...


I have found that the #/min airflow is pretty telling. Take the value x 10 and its pretty close to what the flywheel HP would be. Not exact science, but it is in the ballpark.


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

JLL said:


> @Cruzin2011
> 
> Would you be interested in sharing on ZZP tuning?


I'd still like to hear back on this one myself.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Mr_Pat said:


> I'd still like to hear back on this one myself.


He's MIA....


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

and no one else with a ZZP tune.....


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

I added a video explaining my first dyno run in my first post above: Gen 1 Tuning Comparision Thread


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

Just to confirm, you only made 135 or so HP with trifecta tune? I have to be reading something wrong... On 8/31 graph.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Thebigzeus said:


> Just to confirm, you only made 135 or so HP with trifecta tune? I have to be reading something wrong... On 8/31 graph.


That's what I'm seeing, though it's also worth noting that is a Mustang dyno, which are notoriously pessimistic.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> Just to confirm, you only made 135 or so HP with trifecta tune? I have to be reading something wrong... On 8/31 graph.


To me that sounds like it could be correct. The stock LUJ only puts out 138 HP at most to the flywheel. Realistically, that translates to 110-115 HP to the wheels. And if what MP81 says is correct and the Mustang dyno reads 5-10 HP low, in my mind it's even more realistic.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Thebigzeus said:


> Just to confirm, you only made 135 or so HP with trifecta tune? I have to be reading something wrong... On 8/31 graph.


I started at 109 on 87 octane - stock, then went to 119 on 93 octane stock to 135 on 93 octane with the Trifecta elite tune. So 135 -109 = 21 HP gain is not bad.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Blasirl said:


> I started at 109 on 87 octane - stock, then went to 119 on 93 octane stock to 135 on 93 octane with the Trifecta elite tune. So 135 -109 = 21 HP gain is not bad.


Wait? A 10 HP gain from 87 to 93?


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

Blasirl said:


> I started at 109 on 87 octane - stock, then went to 119 on 93 octane stock to 135 on 93 octane with the Trifecta elite tune. So 135 -109 = 21 HP gain is not bad.


Sorry, that sounds terrible.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> Sorry, that sounds terrible.


To be fair, How many of us have actually dyno'ed our cars to verify our tuner's claims of 30+ HP from their calibrations are true?

I know I haven't.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> To be fair, How many of us have actually dyno'ed our cars to verify our tuner's claims of 30+ HP from their calibrations are true?
> 
> I know I haven't.


I can guarantee you my BNR tune makes more than that. No question. Butt dyno also confirms it.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> I can guarantee you my BNR tune makes more than that. No question. Butt dyno also confirms it.


You must have a sensitive butt.


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

JLL said:


> You must have a sensitive butt.


WOW!!!! I see things here have taken a turn


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> You must have a sensitive butt.


😏


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Thebigzeus said:


> I can guarantee you my BNR tune makes more than that. No question. Butt dyno also confirms it.


Put your money where your mouth is! Let's see the sheets.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

Blasirl said:


> Put your money where your mouth is! Let's see the sheets.


it’s still dark out. When I wake up I’ll take a pic before I throw them in the washer.


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

LMAO


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Thebigzeus said:


> it’s still dark out. When I wake up I’ll take a pic before I throw them in the washer.


I'll hold you to it!


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

Blasirl said:


> I'll hold you to it!


As requested.


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)




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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Thebigzeus said:


> As requested.












Is that a bottom sheet?


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Blasirl said:


> View attachment 292379
> 
> 
> Is that a bottom sheet?


🤣🤣🤣


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

So looking at getting the ZZP BWv3 turbo. Thoughts on a ZZP tune vs BNR tune please. I'm BNR tuned atm but not sure if they'll deliver with the ZZP BWv3. BNR said I'll need the FPCM for more fuel pressure with the 42# injectors, ZZP don't need this mod to tune it. Also BNR said that they won't tune past 19 PSI because ZZP won't honour any warranty over 19 PSI and I have to agree to BNR not being liable in any damage over 19 PSI. ZZP said this isn't true and they had honoured every warranty to date (a few months ago). So yeah, not sure on how to proceed with tuning...


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Muz said:


> So looking at getting the ZZP BWv3 turbo. Thoughts on a ZZP tune vs BNR tune please. I'm BNR tuned atm but not sure if they'll deliver with the ZZP BWv3. BNR said I'll need the FPCM for more fuel pressure with the 42# injectors, ZZP don't need this mod to tune it. Also BNR said that they won't tune past 19 PSI because ZZP won't honour any warranty over 19 PSI and I have to agree to BNR not being liable in any damage over 19 PSI. ZZP said this isn't true and they had honoured every warranty to date (a few months ago). So yeah, not sure on how to proceed with tuning...


Oh really? @Thebigzeus might find this interesting.

As for warranties and customer service go, ZZP is top notch from my experiences. BNR probably just wants you to buy their products. Which is understandable, they are a business. Especially since apparently they don't charge for additional tuning or so I'm told.

My tuner charged me $350 to re-tune for my build.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

That sounds weird considering I run their 20psi tune on a stock turbo.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

JLL said:


> Oh really? @Thebigzeus might find this interesting.
> 
> As for warranties and customer service go, ZZP is top notch from my experiences. BNR probably just wants you to buy their products. Which is understandable, they are a business. Especially since apparently they don't charge for additional tuning or so I'm told.
> 
> My tuner charged me $350 to re-tune for my build.


Yeah they were selling their turbo over ZZP, but I couldn't find all the results that apparently show all the HP advantages...

I'm currently running 22-23ish PSI on the stock turbo too...


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

I would really like to stay with BNR for tuning, just uncertain given the circumstances. I want more than 19 PSI, lol...


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## SlyCruze (Sep 20, 2013)

i'm tuned with BNR, have the ZZP V3 turbo and tuned to 23-24 PSI. that said, i also have 60 LBS injectors (from BNR) it runs really rich at full throttle. 

it could be just me, but i have had nothing but good service from BNR.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

My 42# injectors are running about 60%, should be enough for much more power. I mean it's fair to buy a bit of product to contribute to the re-tune, but if I have to buy a FPCM to make it happen then so be it. If I can trust in the BNR re-tune then that'll be the best option. Need more than 19 PSI though, lol...


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

SlyCruze said:


> i'm tuned with BNR, have the ZZP V3 turbo and tuned to 23-24 PSI. that said, i also have 60 LBS injectors (from BNR) it runs really rich at full throttle.
> 
> it could be just me, but i have had nothing but good service from BNR.


Did you have to specify going over 19 PSI or not?


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## SlyCruze (Sep 20, 2013)

i never specified. i just sent logs and asked if there is room for more to bump it up a bit.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

SlyCruze said:


> i never specified. i just sent logs and asked if there is room for more to bump it up a bit.


How did you find the change to the ZZP BWv3?


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## SlyCruze (Sep 20, 2013)

its hard for me to compare, i'd say it is comparable to going from stock to tuned all over again.


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## SlyCruze (Sep 20, 2013)

it took a couple summers for me to get where the car is at now. if you drive a 2011, to go to higher than 19PSI boost you'll need to update you Map sensor.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

SlyCruze said:


> it took a couple summers for me to get where the car is at now. if you drive a 2011, to go to higher than 19PSI boost you'll need to update you Map sensor.


 Really? I haven't heard that before...


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## SlyCruze (Sep 20, 2013)

yup, i kept getting over boost all the time and BNR had me put in a different one, no issues since. mind you i was trying to get 22-23 PSI a the time.


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## 72chevman (Dec 28, 2018)

Tim at ZZP did a great job on my 16 Limited. We went back and forth seven times before he was 100% happy with the tune. 
It was so weak when I bought it. With my scangauge I never saw more than 13PSI. Now I've seen 20. The car was just plain lackluster, It's now actually fun to drive.
I added their Downpipe at the same time as the tune. I did one step colder plugs, AEM cold air and Magnaflow muffler prior to tune and ZZP mid-pipe afterwards.
The trans shifts so much quicker all the time, not just when driving hard. It will now bark the tires when it hits 2nd gear when you are really in the gas pedal.
I just got 35MPG average on a 1800mile trip (No A\C). I try and use ethanol free 91 when I can, which is found at Caseys in the midwest. Most of this trip was 65-75 MPG. I'll get over 40 if running 60-65 which we do in Rural WI where speed limits are 55 thru the hills, trees and around all the lake communities.
On our trips across Kansas to Colorado at 80MPG I get 32MPG, 30 if AC is on.
In the Flint Hills of KS and the Mountains of CO, this car never loses more than 1MPH going up steep grades, and thats without it downshifting. Boost is a wonderful thing


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

72chevman said:


> Tim at ZZP did a great job on my 16 Limited. We went back and forth seven times before he was 100% happy with the tune.
> It was so weak when I bought it. With my scangauge I never saw more than 13PSI. Now I've seen 20. The car was just plain lackluster, It's now actually fun to drive.
> I added their Downpipe at the same time as the tune. I did one step colder plugs, AEM cold air and Magnaflow muffler prior to tune and ZZP mid-pipe afterwards.
> The trans shifts so much quicker all the time, not just when driving hard. It will now bark the tires when it hits 2nd gear when you are really in the gas pedal.
> ...


This is the 1st ZZP tuning review we've had. Would you allow me to reformat it?

@Blasirl @jblackburn Can I move this further up in the thread with the other reviews?


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> This is the 1st ZZP tuning review we've had. Would you allow me to reformat it?
> 
> @Blasirl @jblackburn Can I move this further up in the thread with the other reviews?


Super moderator, you don’t need the other peasants approval…


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

JLL said:


> This is the 1st ZZP tuning review we've had. Would you allow me to reformat it?
> 
> @Blasirl @jblackburn Can I move this further up in the thread with the other reviews?


Honestly I don't know that you can unless you copy and paste it to one with an earlier timestamp.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> Super moderator, you don’t need the other peasants approval…


Do you want me editing your* non-vulgar* posts without permission? 

I guess I should have asked *how* to do it.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> Do you want me editing your* non-vulgar* posts without permission?
> 
> I guess I should have asked *how* to do it.


vulgar*


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> vulgar*


So I can't spell. But I fixed it.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

I'm hoping to see some direct comparisons of someone who has had both BNR and ZZP tunes. I'm actually quite tempted to get ZZP tuned just to compare to BNR. Just don't want to fork out for a different tune to find out it's not as good 🤷‍♂️


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Muz said:


> I'm hoping to see some direct comparisons of someone who has had both BNR and ZZP tunes. I'm actually quite tempted to get ZZP tuned just to compare to BNR. Just don't want to fork out for a different tune to find out it's not as good 🤷‍♂️


That's probably RARE. I don't see many people spending $800+ on tuning.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

JLL said:


> That's probably RARE. I don't see many people spending $800+ on tuning.


Yeah, ZZP results are few and far between. Not sure where all the BNR tuned dyno's are. BNR told me the BNR GTX250 will produce 230-250whp on 93 octane pump gas, with the ZZP turbo making 200WHP on E85. Is this accurate or just pushing their numbers for marketing? I have only seen one dyno recently with the GTX making 177.25 HP other than BNR's dyno's on their website. Comments on that were that it's not accurate 🤷‍♂️


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

Muz said:


> Yeah, ZZP results are few and far between. Not sure where all the BNR tuned dyno's are. BNR told me the BNR GTX250 will produce 230-250whp on 93 octane pump gas, with the ZZP turbo making 200WHP on E85. Is this accurate or just pushing their numbers for marketing? I have only seen one dyno recently with the GTX making 177.25 HP other than BNR's dyno's on their website. Comments on that were that it's not accurate 🤷‍♂️


Are you on the BNR performance closed group facebook? There are some posted there.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

Thebigzeus said:


> Are you on the BNR performance closed group facebook? There are some posted there.


Thanks for the info, I'll be checking them out. Lol, funny though that BNR said to look at non-ZZP owned threads for an accurate comparison, so yeah still unsure of any accuracies and what not...

But yeah been a member there for ages...


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Muz said:


> Yeah, ZZP results are few and far between. Not sure where all the BNR tuned dyno's are. BNR told me the BNR GTX250 will produce 230-250whp on 93 octane pump gas, with the ZZP turbo making 200WHP on E85. Is this accurate or just pushing their numbers for marketing? I have only seen one dyno recently with the GTX making 177.25 HP other than BNR's dyno's on their website. Comments on that were that it's not accurate 🤷‍♂️


This is from ZZP's website. According to this the car the had on their dyno made 232 HP and 229 FT-LB Torque on E85 (77% Ethanol) with a V3. The Max Boost was on 19.1 PSI according to the bottom. I don't know what all the other mods were though. I see 72# valve springs.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> This is from ZZP's website. According to this the car the had on their dyno made 232 HP and 229 FT-LB Torque on E85 with a V3.
> 
> View attachment 292392


That’s on E85 of course… Gotta remember that.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> That’s on E85 of course… Gotta remember that.


I know. He commented BNR told him the the V3 would only make 200 HP on E85.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> I know. He commented BNR told him the the V3 would only make 200 HP on E85.


Oh, ya that’s incorrect, 200 on pump gas for sure.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

Yeah I'm not confident on the BNR dyno's. The main reason I want the BWv3 is the increased flow through the turbo/exhaust housing. Doesn't look like I can increase this without having to re-cast the housing/exhaust manifold. Was thinking of getting a tool in there to port it out but it doesn't look possible. Looks like the biggest restriction in the little 1.4T. The exhaust can't keep up at all with the intake flow from what it looks like.
200HP on pump gas looks good to me, just wish there were many dyno results to support all the claims...


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Muz said:


> Yeah I'm not confident on the BNR dyno's. The main reason I want the BWv3 is the increased flow through the turbo/exhaust housing. Doesn't look like I can increase this without having to re-cast the housing/exhaust manifold. Was thinking of getting a tool in there to port it out but it doesn't look possible. Looks like the biggest restriction in the little 1.4T. The exhaust can't keep up at all with the intake flow from what it looks like.
> 200HP on pump gas looks good to me, just wish there were many dyno results to support all the claims...


To my knowledge, the increased volumetric efficiency through flow is how ZZP is making those numbers on their in house dyno. However, I do not know what other mods those cars have. I've done enough business with ZZP over the last 18 years that personally I trust their products.. Although, I believe that the point of the dyno I posted was to show that ZZP's V3 is better than their "defective" V2 design.


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## Muz (Apr 15, 2018)

Yep cool, that's what I got from it too...


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

I said there were no independent sheets showing over 200WHP from the V3, zzp's website does have a sheet showing it, but that same dyno also says a stock 1.4T with the stock tune will make 155WHP. So take that into consideration. I have no problem providing independent dyno sheets, I have several from several different customers across the US. These sheets are the best I can get for anyone as they are from the same dynojet dyno, which is located in Kentucky (BNR is in south Florida and has a dynocom dyno). 










That is stock vs. tuned on 93 octane.

Here is after he added a BNR wastegate actuator, still stock turbo, Still 93 Octane.










And here is the same car, same dyno, 93 octane, GTX250 @ 22psi of boost










Here is 25psi of boost, still 93 octane


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## cruze991 (Jan 4, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I said there were no independent sheets showing over 200WHP from the V3, zzp's website does have a sheet showing it, but that same dyno also says a stock 1.4T with the stock tune will make 155WHP. So take that into consideration. I have no problem providing independent dyno sheets, I have several from several different customers across the US. These sheets are the best I can get for anyone as they are from the same dynojet dyno, which is located in Kentucky (BNR is in south Florida and has a dynocom dyno).
> 
> View attachment 293714
> 
> ...


I have trifecta on a 2012 running E85 with a couple bolt ons and they said I should be at roughly 190-200 whp, shouldn’t It be higher since that dyno shows 187 whp on 93? Stock turbo btw


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Posting because it's relevant to what I said. This was JUST posted today.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Here's another one from facebook from March

ZZP coil
Iridium plugs
AEM CAI
ZZP V3 turbo
Forge Wastegate w/17lb spring
ZZP big intercooler and pipes
42lb injectors
ZZP midpipe
ZZP catback exhaust w/muffler
ZZP Tune 93 octane


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Here's another one from facebook-

"
Well this is pretty much it for zzp v3 maxed out
60lb injectors
E85
Mpfab CAI
Zzp Downpipe
Ported intake
Zzp cam
72 lb valve springs
Zzp wastegate
Racerx front intercooler

A bit disappointed considering they posted 230 hp and tq on their dyno run, not exactly sure what the difference would be from mine "


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

I found a Dynojet Dyno near me so hopefully I can get a day scheduled to get a dyno run or 2 on mine with the current setup.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

The posts that [email protected] posted got me thinking. So I checked out ZZP'S website where I found something interesting.....

This is the dyno that ZZP posts:









Take note that all of the other dyno graphs display TQ/HP vs. *Engine *speed. However, ZZP'S dyno graph displays TQ/HP vs. *Vehicle *speed (or so I assume.)

Which seems odd to me.

Anyway, I'll see what I think of the V3 once I get it installed when I put my engine back together. 

It seems like BNR probably makes a superior product, but personally I couldn't justify the cost.

@Mr_how do you like your new turbo?


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

I mean, as long as it stayed in the same gear (which it did), it doesn't really change, as long as it was adjusted correctly to the gear used.


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

I love mine .. though I gotta get my catch can together lmao.. I think the oil is pooling around the fitting in the bottom of the intake where the V1 Cruze kit is at and getting pulled in when I let off after a good throttle pull.. I posted on previous page that I had found a Dynojet Dyno near me that I'm going to go try and get some data mainly because I want to know where its at currently


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

JLL said:


> It seems like BNR probably makes a superior product, but personally I couldn't justify the cost.


Yep, I think so too without a doubt. If the cost was like $1200-1300 for the BNR I would be all over it. I'm not a cheap person, but I just can't justify the ROI of $1700+ injectors.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

ZZP's turbo is made in china by a company called dandong-geerin turbocharger, they sell OEM replacement turbochargers for the cruze/sonic on alibaba/aliexpress for $130-$200 depending on QTY. Assume zzp pays MAYBE double that cost for the v3? Either way, BNR is using genuine garret turbos from garret turbocharger at a cost of $500-600 per core, then we have to do the work of machining it and paying for the wheels, etc. It literally wouldn't be worth our time or effort to bother selling these turbos if we sold them for $1200-1300.

There was a 3rd stock turbo upgrade available from Vermont Tuning for a while that was called the Super GT14, and it was like $1000 with a cast compressor wheel, no turbine upgrade, and it was built from used junkyard turbos. It'd be next to impossible to sell a GTX250 using a brand new turbo base for $1200. Now if we did the same as zzp and went to china for cores, then we could sling GTX250s for $1200 or even $1000 all day, just like zzp does. But then we'd be dealing with the same thing they are dealing with right now, my current count of V3s that have destroyed themselves in the last 30 days is currently up to 6. And most of them were not BNR tuned, so it's not our tuning killing them.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

ZZPerformance said:


> This product is designed, machined, inspected and assembled in house at ZZPerformance in Wyoming, MI. Castings are made by ZZP China.


I'm going to go ahead and say this is how the V3 is produced, given it is listed on the site. Chinese casting, but ZZP does all the rest of the work, so...

Given the *massive* quality increase in Chinese housings in recent years, and the fact all the critical processes are done at ZZP, I'd say it's a nonissue.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

MP81 said:


> I'm going to go ahead and say this is how the V3 is produced, given it is listed on the site. Chinese casting, but ZZP does all the rest of the work, so...
> 
> Given the *massive* quality increase in Chinese housings in recent years, and the fact all the critical processes are done at ZZP, I'd say it's a nonissue.


Certainly a possibility, failure ratio of course depends on how many they sell too. If we see 6 failures a month and they sell 1000 turbos, that of course not as bad as 6 a month where they sold 10 turbos.

And Jerry I get your points, you are a business and need to make a profit. Yours are of no doubt higher quality, but to me when I factor the price of the car, and how much I, personally, would spend on upgrades, it exceeds that. Obviously for some it doesn’t, I have the funds, if it were a $30k car I’d invest that in a heartbeat. Based upon what I’ve seen I won’t be buying a ZZP V3 either.


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> ZZP's turbo is made in china by a company called dandong-geerin turbocharger, they sell OEM replacement turbochargers for the cruze/sonic on alibaba/aliexpress for $130-$200 depending on QTY. Assume zzp pays MAYBE double that cost for the v3? Either way, BNR is using genuine garret turbos from garret turbocharger at a cost of $500-600 per core, then we have to do the work of machining it and paying for the wheels, etc. It literally wouldn't be worth our time or effort to bother selling these turbos if we sold them for $1200-1300.
> 
> There was a 3rd stock turbo upgrade available from Vermont Tuning for a while that was called the Super GT14, and it was like $1000 with a cast compressor wheel, no turbine upgrade, and it was built from used junkyard turbos. It'd be next to impossible to sell a GTX250 using a brand new turbo base for $1200. Now if we did the same as zzp and went to china for cores, then we could sling GTX250s for $1200 or even $1000 all day, just like zzp does. But then we'd be dealing with the same thing they are dealing with right now, my current count of V3s that have destroyed themselves in the last 30 days is currently up to 6. And most of them were not BNR tuned, so it's not our tuning killing them.


Any links to these failures your refering to ? I'd like some info.


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## Thebigzeus (Dec 2, 2018)

Mr_Pat said:


> Any links to these failures your refering to ? I'd like some info.











BNR Performance Discussion | Facebook


This group was created as a place for BNR customers to discuss mods they've done to their cars and BNR products. Members can add anyone they want but keep it to people that will contribute something...




www.facebook.com


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Thebigzeus said:


> BNR Performance Discussion | Facebook
> 
> 
> This group was created as a place for BNR customers to discuss mods they've done to their cars and BNR products. Members can add anyone they want but keep it to people that will contribute something...
> ...


Facebook!


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Cruzin2011 said:


> Right now I don’t have much time but in the future sue.


Have any time to do this yet?


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Mr_Pat said:


> I found a Dynojet Dyno near me so hopefully I can get a day scheduled to get a dyno run or 2 on mine with the current setup.


And the verdict is???


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Blasirl said:


> And the verdict is???


@Mr_Pat 's Cruze is DOA right now until he can resuscitate it.









Dohht Cruze can't Swim.....


Soooooo yeah Wednesday was a bad day.... On my way to work dodging flooded areas which equated to an hour and a half drive to work and I drowned her 200 yards from work.... Pushed it out by myself but couldn't get it up the incline to make the last 100 yards to get it in the parking lot... So...




www.cruzetalk.com


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

JLL said:


> @Mr_Pat 's Cruze is DOA right now until he can resuscitate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was two months ago!


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)




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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Glad you posted that video, it really highlights what kind of gains you can expect from their tunes. I'd like to follow it up with what you can expect from a BNR tune.

ZZP Tune: +17HP +39TQ
BNR Tune: +56HP +101TQ

Dyno sheet from an actual customer car from Kentucky (we're in Florida) attached


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Just to follow up, here are some more dynos from across the USA using BNR tunes. All stock turbo


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Wanted to add to this, had a Sonic 1.4T customer on the dyno with a GTX250, 93 octane, 23psi. GTX250 throwing down some great numbers on this mustang dyno!


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## Jayalpert (12 mo ago)

Trifecta tune

2013 Cruze LT 1.4. 6-speed manual

mods:
trifecta elite tune
aem CIA
ZZP intercooler kit
ZZP Catless down pipe
Straight pipe through ZZP resonator
custom ported throttle body
BNR throttle body spacer
BNR ported intake manifold
BNR intake manifold spacer
Forge atmospheric BOV
BNR billet wast gate actuator
ZZP igniton coil
OTTP Short throw shifter
Short throw shift lever
Soild shift cable bushings
Solid shifter mount bushings

Trifecta did a wonderful job tuning this car, I started with the advantage tune then moved up. after the advantage tune on a completely stock car it was like the difference between night and day. It took a few datat logs to get everything dialed in correctly but after all was said and done this cruze is faster then my Vette.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Jayalpert said:


> Trifecta tune
> 
> 2013 Cruze LT 1.4. 6-speed manual
> 
> ...


If that's accurate, I wonder what my car is faster than.


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## Jimster480 (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> Glad you posted that video, it really highlights what kind of gains you can expect from their tunes. I'd like to follow it up with what you can expect from a BNR tune.
> 
> ZZP Tune: +17HP +39TQ
> BNR Tune: +56HP +101TQ
> ...


Does this require 93 Octane though? 

I am looking for the best tune I can get that lets me still run regular if I need to or just by default use E15 (UNL88) or midgrade. I don't want to have a fuel requirement though. I underestand more power would be available with better gas but I just don't want to be restricted to it. I already have 4 cars that run premium only.... so this and my truck are the only ones that run regular.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jimster480 said:


> Does this require 93 Octane though?
> 
> I am looking for the best tune I can get that lets me still run regular if I need to or just by default use E15 (UNL88) or midgrade. I don't want to have a fuel requirement though. I underestand more power would be available with better gas but I just don't want to be restricted to it. I already have 4 cars that run premium only.... so this and my truck are the only ones that run regular.


BNR can tune for whatever fuel you want to use. Higher octane will obviously mean more power, but we can definitely tune for lower grade fuels.


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## Jimster480 (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> BNR can tune for whatever fuel you want to use. Higher octane will obviously mean more power, but we can definitely tune for lower grade fuels.


Sounds good!

Is the tune done remote or is it a map file that is sent to me? Since I am looking for gas mileage with slightly more power, I have go fast cars like a Chevy SS Sedan... this one is the vehicle we drive to save gas on regular trips across the state. I've gotten 33.5mpg with E15/UNL88, NGK Ruthenium HX, MSD Ignition coil pack, K&N Drop in filter.
I looked at your site as well as trifecta and both of you guys have similar little boxes to write in. Is that the only place or is there a number to call or email where I can send details?

Edit: Saw that you mentioned in another thread that you can do 2-3 mpg better than stock at part throttle with more power at WOT even without Premium?


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jimster480 said:


> Sounds good!
> 
> Is the tune done remote or is it a map file that is sent to me? Since I am looking for gas mileage with slightly more power, I have go fast cars like a Chevy SS Sedan... this one is the vehicle we drive to save gas on regular trips across the state. I've gotten 33.5mpg with E15/UNL88, NGK Ruthenium HX, MSD Ignition coil pack, K&N Drop in filter.
> I looked at your site as well as trifecta and both of you guys have similar little boxes to write in. Is that the only place or is there a number to call or email where I can send details?
> ...



It's done remotely via email. We can definitely do an eco focused tune for you that will get better MPG than stock while making more power at WOT. Hard to say how much power as that will depend on the fuel quality. But more than stock for sure.


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## Jimster480 (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> It's done remotely via email. We can definitely do an eco focused tune for you that will get better MPG than stock while making more power at WOT. Hard to say how much power as that will depend on the fuel quality. But more than stock for sure.


Cool so do I just order on the site to get started? I see you guys need to mail me a tuning device. I have a diablosport v3 that I used with my SS before and it has a open license, do you guys support that or only HPT + your own unit?


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jimster480 said:


> Cool so do I just order on the site to get started? I see you guys need to mail me a tuning device. I have a diablosport v3 that I used with my SS before and it has a open license, do you guys support that or only HPT + your own unit?


Yeah just order on the site. We can use the diablo i3, but they dont record boost and a few other parameters, so the tune will be a more mild tune


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## Jimster480 (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> Yeah just order on the site. We can use the diablo i3, but they dont record boost and a few other parameters, so the tune will be a more mild tune


Understood, I'll just go with whatever system you guys are using then.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jimster480 said:


> Understood, I'll just go with whatever system you guys are using then.


If you're manual trans we do have the new RTD bluetooth tuners, you use your phone to do all your tuning. Otherwise grab the autocal v3


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## Jimster480 (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> If you're manual trans we do have the new RTD bluetooth tuners, you use your phone to do all your tuning. Otherwise grab the autocal v3


Yep my car has a manual. Does the RTD only work on manual? Can it be used for data logging and stuff after tuning?


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jimster480 said:


> Yep my car has a manual. Does the RTD only work on manual? Can it be used for data logging and stuff after tuning?


You have to flash the auto trans using a laptop, the app doesnt support that controller. But the engine controller is supported with the bluetooth app. You can data log using the bluetooth app OR you can hook up your laptop to log. Either way.


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## Jimster480 (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> If you're manual trans we do have the new RTD bluetooth tuners, you use your phone to do all your tuning. Otherwise grab the autocal v3


Ah, that's awesome. Will definitely go for that then.
Going to order in an hour or two, I wanted to confirm the vin on the ecu before I ordered. Wife just got back yesterday.
How long does stuff you normally take to arrive? Do you think I'll have it for next Monday? Since this weekend I'm going to take a trip and then my wife will be taking a trip next week


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jimster480 said:


> Ah, that's awesome. Will definitely go for that then.
> Going to order in an hour or two, I wanted to confirm the vin on the ecu before I ordered. Wife just got back yesterday.
> How long does stuff you normally take to arrive? Do you think I'll have it for next Monday? Since this weekend I'm going to take a trip and then my wife will be taking a trip next week


If you order tonight it will ship tomorrow or the next day, usually takes 2-3 business days anywhere in the USA to get there.


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## Jimster480 (11 mo ago)

[email protected] said:


> If you order tonight it will ship tomorrow or the next day, usually takes 2-3 business days anywhere in the USA to get there.


Yep its ordered now. Look forward to it since I have so many trips coming up.


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