# VW Emissions Scandal Impact on CTD



## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

The Environazis won't stop until ALL diesels are off the road...then they will find ways to take Gasoline vehicles off the roads too. I wouldn't put it past them to have blackmailed the VW execs to admit to anything they claimed or they would smear their name by dragging them through court incessantly....thats the sort of games they play.


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

I believe our CTD value will go up as no VW diesels will be on the roads soon 

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## cdb09007 (Aug 7, 2013)

I think due to this 'scandal' that the US will do its best to ban all diesels, just to cover their asses.


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## MOTO13 (Mar 26, 2014)

Or...it may open the market up to others to fill VW's place. Banning diesels in the US is not going to happen. GM has a golden opportunity here to do big things with the diesel market.


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## highmarker (Jul 27, 2015)

I think that the GM execs are thinking one of two things:

1. Let's jump on this and market our diesels as the path forward to a cleaner, efficient diesel vehicle.
2. Let's hope and pray that the EPA doesn't look at us now.

Do I think that GM "cheated" on their emission tests? Heavens no, but as with any test data, there is a lot of "gray" area on how the tests are run and on how the data is represented. Diesel powered vehicles are not dead because some foreign automaker cheated on their tests. I'm sure this is not the first time something like this has happened. Maybe not to this scale, but I'm sure this has happened before. But, GM has to be a bit nervous about what actions the EPA is going to take on the rest of the automakers of diesel vehicles. They might try and crack down on this "gray" area and find just how far the automakers are pushing the envelope on the tests.

They don't call it CTD (Clean Turbo Diesel) for nothing.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

highmarker said:


> They don't call it CTD (Clean Turbo Diesel) for nothing.


And here I thought that stood for "Cruze Turbo Diesel".

Ultimately, I think the fate of diesel is what advantage it brings to the table. Are the emissions safer for the environment? (seems debatable). And those interested in the environment are more likely to by a hybrid or a all-electric.

What about fuel costs? At one time diesel was much cheaper per mile than gas, but that advantage is a lot slimmer now.


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

highmarker said:


> I think that the GM execs are thinking one of two things:
> 
> 1. Let's jump on this and market our diesels as the path forward to a cleaner, efficient diesel vehicle.
> 2. Let's hope and pray that the EPA doesn't look at us now.
> ...


CTD stand for Cruze Turbo Diesel 

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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

cdb09007 said:


> I think due to this 'scandal' that the US will do its best to ban all diesels, just to cover their asses.


My answer to that would be an extreme vulgarity about performing a physiologically impossible act upon themselves....directed at anyone or any group that even made a step in that direction.


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## CruzeTech (Mar 23, 2012)

I find it funny that the VW CTD that GM toured the country with when they were showcasing their Cruze Diesel, will just have to sit in the parking lot because they can't harm the environment. Lol


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## highmarker (Jul 27, 2015)

pacolino said:


> CTD stand for Cruze Turbo Diesel
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


I'm pretty sure is stands for Clean Turbo Diesel

Diesel Vehicles: Diesel Cars and Diesel Trucks | Chevrolet


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

I think both of my family's Honda products (or maybe just the Acura) had emissions recalls because they didn't meet emissions standards out on the roads after a few years on the cars or something. Like the 1.4 Cruze emissions recall, it was "no big deal"...just bring the car in and we'll fix it. But at the same time, I doubt they were TRYING to cheat the emissions tests.

I wouldn't bet against Chevy doing some sort of recall/voluntary re-flash on the ECUs for the diesel Cruze in the future (especially if it helps save some of the emissions sensors they're replacing under warranty for lots of your guys), but like the 1.4, I expect it won't be a big deal at all - certainly nothing like the VW fiasco.


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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

And here all along I thought it was C (as in SEE) Turbo Diesel.

No not actually.


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## jalaner (Dec 28, 2013)

GM would not install an emissions cheater as obvious as the TDI system. TDIs sense emissions testing when 2 wheels are moving instead of 4 (non test, normal drive mode). There is also 0% chance that "regulators" will try to eliminate US diesels. I can't believe it took regulators so many years to ID the simple cheat mode. I'm just glad I banned myself from all VW products when my 1984 Audi fell apart after 26K highway miles. Many parts on that car were made from reinforced cardboard.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

*CTD = Cruze Turbo Diesel
*
This initialism was coined here on cruzetalk two years ago. 

At the time there was a particularly prolific member who came from a VW background and insisted on calling Cruze diesels TDIs. TDI of course being a trademark of VW. Another member here (I can't remember who) started popularizing the CTD term in reaction. 

In time the CTD term stuck, but to the best of my knowledge is only used on this board. 

You can call it a clean turbo diesel too, but this is how CTD became part of our lexicon and parlance on cruzetalk.


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

That's what I thought too, thanks Tomko for clarifications 

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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

GM can't do anything right now. The last of the '15 CTD's rolled off the line a few months ago at the Lordatown meet. The next ones will not be out until the 2017 model year. 

I think the public has a short term memory on this kind of stuff. Toyota still sells cars despite the unintended acceleration. GM still sells cars despite the fact that the ignition switches killed 114 people. Jeep still sells cars even though Grand Cherokees engulfed into flames when hit from behind. And so on. This is just an emissions issue that can be fixed with some software.


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

For some context on car companies cheating at emissions testing... Carmaker Cheating on Emissions Almost as Old as Pollution Tests - Bloomberg Business


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

From 2015 Cruze: Compact Car - Clean Turbo Diesel | Chevrolet 









The Chevy web-site refers to the CTD as Cruze Clean Turbo Diesel.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

obermd said:


> The Chevy web-site refers to the CTD as Cruze Clean Turbo Diesel.


Honestly, who cares? Either/or we all know what it means. However, if a gun was forced to my head, I'd vote for Clean Turbo Diesel as there have been references to "Cruze CTD," in which case "Cruze Turbo Diesel" would just be redundant.

Without Googling it, how many of you actually know what TDI stands for? We all know it's VW's diesel lineup, and that's really all that matters.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

As for the OP, as long as Suburbans, F-150's and Duramax's with big wheels and bed covers line suburaban driveways, there will always be diesels on the road, although, the expense of putting them in small cars may reach a tipping point.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Turbo Diesel Injection or Turbo Direct Injection?


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## Su8pack1 (Apr 17, 2014)

I think this may have an impact on all diesels as those on the fence between diesel and gas may now just stay away.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I see Canada (not surprising) and Switzerland have also now issued nationwide stop sale orders on all VW Diesels.


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## TX CTD (Oct 24, 2014)

I hope the prices on VW's drop? I would love something a little bigger and it doesn't look like a diesel Malibu or Impala is on the way, so a Passat will have to do.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

GM is sitting on a new 2.0 litre diesel that it can easily bring into the North American market. The emissions engineering was already done for its little brother the 1.6 that's going out the next gen Cruze. 

It is designed for FWD applications and my guess is that this 2.0 will end up in a Malibu, Impala or CUV.


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

MOTO13 said:


> Or...it may open the market up to others to fill VW's place. Banning diesels in the US is not going to happen. GM has a golden opportunity here to do big things with the diesel market.


GM most likely thinking why did we stop producing the diesel.


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

obermd said:


> I see Canada (not surprising) and Switzerland have also now issued nationwide stop sale orders on all VW Diesels.


we Canadians just do what ever you guys do.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

Tomko said:


> GM is sitting on a new 2.0 litre diesel that it can easily bring into the North American market. The emissions engineering was already done for its little brother the 1.6 that's going out the next gen Cruze.
> 
> It is designed for FWD applications and my guess is that this 2.0 will end up in a Malibu, Impala or CUV.


It already has.

Holden Malibu Review | 2013 CD Diesel Automatic


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## TX CTD (Oct 24, 2014)

Aussie said:


> It already has.
> 
> Holden Malibu Review | 2013 CD Diesel Automatic


That would be interesting if they bring it the same way as the CTD, which is basically a Cruze body Verano that's about the price of a base Verano. So it would be about $32000 and probably average a little above 30mpg based on what I've seen from the mileage my CTD. I think that would be a winner especially if VW looses some MPG with their emissions fix.


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## jalaner (Dec 28, 2013)

The Passat sized Buick Regal is highly rated and would be a great candidate for the new 2.0 diesel. Buick's upscaled price structure might support the expensive diesel drivetrain better when compared to a very expensive Malibu diesel. The Impala is a nice car but may be too heavy for the new engine.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

I think it large part, the fate of small car diesel in the US is dependent on what happens in Europe. From what I'm reading, I think Europe is poised to do a lot of back pedaling. Paris in particular has a serious visible pollution problem. They may prioritize reducing NOx over CO2 - something best accomplished by shifting to gasoline. I think most of the advantage of diesel in Europe is based on the cost of the fuel - but much that is based on their taxes - meaning, given political will, it could turn around and gasoline could be cheaper.

At this point, I'm not sure any car maker is going to pour a lot of development effort into new diesel designs.


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## UlyssesSG (Apr 5, 2011)

bigluke said:


> Do you think that eventually our diesels will be affected?


Affordable passenger diesel cars will disappear, including eventually the Cruze diesel. What we're likely see replace the Cruze CTD in the Chevrolet lineup is a light hybrid gasoline powered Cruze variant using technology developed for the 2016-2017 second-generation Volt.

I know no one wants to hear this, but I'm certain it will come to pass. The Cruze CTD is a placeholder vehicle which is why GM never heavily marketed the car in the USA.


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## UlyssesSG (Apr 5, 2011)

ChevyGuy said:


> At this point, I'm not sure any car maker is going to pour a lot of development effort into new diesel designs.


I totally agree with you ChevyGuy. Auto manufacturers won't be counting on diesel to deliver the fuel efficiency and low real-world tailpipe emissions they'll need to pass legally mandated and political muster. Even as we speak European political leaders are following the lead of their constituents who have grown weary of diesel smog in their major cities and are demanding change and clean air. It may take a while to get their act together but Brussels and individual EU member governments will sooner than later begin incentivising diesel's phaseout. The automobile industry's future serious R&D money will go into developing advanced battery technology, smaller and more thermally efficient ICE motors and into various types of electrified and hybrid vehicles.

If Volkswagen survives the mess they're in, and it will because the German government and its citizens will not allow VW to fail, then I look for Volkswagen to intensely focus on the technologies I cited above and perhaps explore other advanced propulsion alternatives of which I have no knowledge.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

UlyssesSG said:


> The serious R&D money will go developing advanced battery technology, smaller and more thermally efficient ICE motors and into various types of electrified and hybrid vehicles.


Now, it's _possible_, that the hybrid could be diesel powered. I do know that having control over the engine load (rather than subject to the driver's right foot) can bring out it's good qualities. However, I'm not sure how good a match there would be between diesel and "battery charging" duties.


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## grs1961 (Oct 23, 2012)

ChevyGuy said:


> Now, it's _possible_, that the hybrid could be diesel powered. I do know that having control over the engine load (rather than subject to the driver's right foot) can bring out it's good qualities. However, I'm not sure how good a match there would be between diesel and "battery charging" duties.


The torque of a diesel will allow you to spin some very high-gauss magnets through a field, which is why diesel-electric locomotives are such an economical choice, re-charging the batteries in a hybrid with a feedback-controlled diesel could be very effective.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Interesting recent article.

Mercedes to continue pushing diesel cars to Japanese motorists in wake of VW scandal | The Japan Times


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

diesel said:


> Interesting recent article.
> 
> Mercedes to continue pushing diesel cars to Japanese motorists in wake of VW scandal | The Japan Times


I have quite recently seen quite a few Mercedes Bluetec and BMW diesels around my area.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> I have quite recently seen quite a few Mercedes Bluetec and BMW diesels around my area.


Interesting - BMW has been implicated as not meeting EU 5 or 6 standards. EU 6 standards are very close to the EPA standards. The Mercedes test cars in the European study were the only ones that met EU 6 standards over most driving environments.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

obermd said:


> Interesting - BMW has been implicated as not meeting EU 5 or 6 standards. EU 6 standards are very close to the EPA standards. The Mercedes test cars in the European study were the only ones that met EU 6 standards over most driving environments.


Thought that was only the SUVs (we don't have those here). I have seen an uptick in the number of 328d and 335d's though. Mercedes has always been quietly in the diesel game, but I've seen more and more of the SUVs and E-class diesels lately.


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## Classy56 (Jul 16, 2014)

So I wonder where all those TDIs actually sit regarding tailpipe emissions. Yeah they got caught trying to dupe the EPA(big NoNo) BUT are they dirty polluters, I'd guess NO. Will they pass the Ca's SMOG test? I bet with flying colors! This is Just an extortion ploy by our dirty EPA to help pay for Colorado. GM got under the covers with BHO so they're safe. Carry On!


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

BHO?

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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Classy56 said:


> So I wonder where all those TDIs actually sit regarding tailpipe emissions. Yeah they got caught trying to dupe the EPA(big NoNo) BUT are they dirty polluters, I'd guess NO. Will they pass the Ca's SMOG test? I bet with flying colors! This is Just an extortion ploy by our dirty EPA to help pay for Colorado. GM got under the covers with BHO so they're safe. Carry On!


And not just the EPA, but also European emissions standards. Nitrous Oxides (NOx) have been implicated, I don't know if proved, in increasing rates of respiratory illnesses such as Bronchitis and Asthma. The West Virginia University team actually went in to show that the ICCT's theory that VW diesels were polluting more on the road was wrong. They were surprised to find that VWs were indeed dumping a lot more pollutants out the tailpipe while driving than on a dyno. What finally got VW to admit what they were doing was this team's discovery that VW diesels were cleaner when the engine was cold than when warmed up.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

pacolino said:


> BHO?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


the hnic


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Hockey night in Canada?


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Tomko said:


> Hockey night in Canada?


Isn't that every night during the winter?


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## Classy56 (Jul 16, 2014)

Barrack Hussein Obama


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Classy56 said:


> Barrack Hussein Obama


I don't think this has anything to do with it. VW has admitted to installing this cheat software on over 11 million vehicles world wide. Only 4.5% or so of them were sold in the US.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Tomko said:


> Hockey night in Canada?


thats what i always thought til i spent some time in the usa.


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## UlyssesSG (Apr 5, 2011)

`
Financial news source _The Street_ posed this question in today's edition:
*Want a Diesel, but Not a VW? Here Are 9 Fuel-Efficient Diesels Not Named Volkswagen*

No mention of our Cruze CTD. None, nada, zilch.
Boy, talk about a well-engineered value-priced diesel automobile that flies under the radar!

- -
Want a Diesel, but Not a VW? Here Are 9 Fuel-Efficient Diesels Not Named Volkswagen - TheStreet


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

UlyssesSG said:


> `No mention of our Cruze CTD. None, nada, zilch.
> Boy, talk about a well-engineered value-priced diesel automobile that flies under the radar!


Every one mentioned is a 2016. Which makes sense now that we're on the verge of October. As of right now, there is no 2016 Cruze TD.


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

Shame to them...those cars are not cheap at all.....

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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

UlyssesSG said:


> `
> Financial news source _The Street_ posed this question in today's edition:
> *Want a Diesel, but Not a VW? Here Are 9 Fuel-Efficient Diesels Not Named Volkswagen*
> 
> ...


it's a good article in the sense that it promotes diesels, but the Cruze diesel hasn't been produced for a few months and not again until 2017 so it makes sense to leave it out.


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## Classy56 (Jul 16, 2014)

So did GM get the heads-up from BHO about the V DUBB scandal? I wonder if the CDI WILL return at all


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## DrKlahn (Feb 10, 2014)

Assuming the Cruze CTD passes emissions without a cheat (and we don't have any reason to think it doesn't). I don't see any reason why they would cancel at this point. The engineering is done. It helps to raise the ever important fleet average. The VW thing may give them a marketing point to use.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Classy56 said:


> So did GM get the heads-up from BHO about the V DUBB scandal? I wonder if the CDI WILL return at all


I think if Chevy had had a heads-up they would have pushed to keep the current CDT as a Cruze CDT Limited, like they did with the LS, LT, and ECO trims.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

DrKlahn said:


> I don't see any reason why they would cancel at this point.


It depends on public demand. And I'm not sure as we know yet what's happening. But things do not look rosy.




DrKlahn said:


> The engineering is done.


Some of it, but if it was all done, why are they waiting until 2017? if nothing else, they still have to set up the production line. 

Take a look at this article: Volkswagen scandal: The rise and fall of diesel. Take a look at the last section. It looks like the political winds in Europe were shifting even before this scandal.


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## UlyssesSG (Apr 5, 2011)

obermd said:


> I think if Chevy had had a heads-up they would have pushed to keep the current CDT as a Cruze CDT Limited, like they did with the LS, LT, and ECO trims.


I agree, but only if the Cruze CDT is squeaky clean in all real-world driving conditions. If GM indeed had a heads up about what was about to go down with Volkwagen's TDi motors and at the same time knew the Cruze CTD is clean but not perfectly so, then I could easily understand GM management shutting down CTD production until further notice. After all, the 2nd-gen Volt in in the pipeline, the Bolt is reportedly not far behind and the Cruze CTD may just have been a placeholder vehicle until these more advanced technologies are fully online and mass-market ready.

BTW, when all's said and done across the pond, it looks more and more like every single diesel-powered automobile currently plying the roads of Europe will fall short.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

The US introduced the catalytic converter as a way of reducing CO and CO2 emissions. Europe went to diesel. As a result we actually cleaner air in the US because we don't have the particulate emissions. Gasses spread out throughout the atmosphere, but particulate emissions tend to stay relatively local.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I've read that gasoline engines using direct injection create a lot of particulate matter - but that it is not currently being regulated.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Tomko said:


> I've read that gasoline engines using direct injection create a lot of particulate matter - but that it is not currently being regulated.


This may be part of why DI gasoline engines haven't been widely adopted. The EPA does regulate particulate matter emissions from all ICE engines, regardless of fuel.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

obermd said:


> This may be part of why DI gasoline engines haven't been widely adopted. The EPA does regulate particulate matter emissions from all ICE engines, regardless of fuel.


I think every manufacturer has a DI design now, and the entire industry is going in that direction full-force. They have been slow to catch on due to intake valve deposits and other engineering challenges.


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## DrKlahn (Feb 10, 2014)

ChevyGuy said:


> It depends on public demand. And I'm not sure as we know yet what's happening. But things do not look rosy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While nothing is set in stone, I still would guess they won't be cancelling it. The gas variants are obviously the biggest seller so they'll come out first. That way production and potential profit isn't lost producing a model with less volume potential. With the lead times in the industry the R&D on the diesel is done or wrapping up at this point. I don't see them not using the new diesel engine they just developed and tossing all that's been done up to this point.

Regardless of the winds in the Europe, the CAFE fleet average here continues to climb at a steep rate. Hybrids are still an expensive answer and are even more challenging from a maintenance standpoint than the diesel (even with the convoluted emissions systems they are saddled with). Still anything is possible.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

DrKlahn said:


> I don't see them not using the new diesel engine they just developed and tossing all that's been done up to this point.


Again, it comes back to the market. Can they make it attractive to buyers? Sometimes it's cheaper to walk away rather than try to build and sell something the public doesn't want.

I can't say as I've heard any real problems with hybrids. A number of people (myself included) thought the Prius would be in trouble when the battery wore out. But they've been sold 18 years now - I've not heard a single report of a rash of them in the junk yards. It's expensive, but not as fatal as predicted. 

One thing that would really help diesel is if more biofuel became available. But even then, it's still got the image of the dio-burner and not the "green" image of electric power. (Never mind the reality, it's all about image.)

But, I think things will be clearer in about 3 months.


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## gulfcoastguy (Feb 21, 2013)

Tomko said:


> I've read that gasoline engines using direct injection create a lot of particulate matter - but that it is not currently being regulated.


And the particulate emissions that they produce are the more deadly smaller ones that lodge deep in the lungs.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I, for one, plan on buying a 2017 Cruze Diesel when I am able to.


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

Planning to trade in my 2015 Cruze diesel to the new 2017 Cruze diesel, it would be interesting 

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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I'm looking forward to the Colorado duramax.


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

I hope they'll throw a smaller engine, maybe a 1.6 L in the new 2017 CTD. 

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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Your hopes have been answered. That was already announced sometime ago. 

Now you have two wishes left. Use them wisely.


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## gulfcoastguy (Feb 21, 2013)

If the 2017 is a diesel hatchback or wagon with a stick I'll consider it.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

One thing not mentioned is the effect of the VW scandal on aftermarket tunes. You don't get something for nothing. The stock tune might be detuned to keep the EPA happy.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

ChevyGuy said:


> One thing not mentioned is the effect of the VW scandal on aftermarket tunes. You don't get something for nothing. The stock tune might be detuned to keep the EPA happy.


I'm pretty sure it is given that the same engine in Europe provides more HP, torque, and fuel efficiency.


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## DrKlahn (Feb 10, 2014)

ChevyGuy said:


> Again, it comes back to the market. Can they make it attractive to buyers? Sometimes it's cheaper to walk away rather than try to build and sell something the public doesn't want.
> 
> I can't say as I've heard any real problems with hybrids. A number of people (myself included) thought the Prius would be in trouble when the battery wore out. But they've been sold 18 years now - I've not heard a single report of a rash of them in the junk yards. It's expensive, but not as fatal as predicted.
> 
> ...


Thing is by this point it is essentially built. They'll be doing final tweaks to mules at this point. The hybrid issue isn't necessarily the battery costs, it's dealership time. I've talked with guys who are techs with both Ford and GM (one local and one a regional trainer) and hybrids can take up a ton of shop time if the issue is particularly tricky. Muxh more than a comparable ICE. Not fatal, but it does make a Diesel in the fleet an attractive way to boost the economy average.

I agree that they do have to work on the image. If they were smart they could make ads pointing out their solution does pass and is green. The current diesel is pretty much a niche product at GM and the lack of any real advertising points to them being content with that. I would imagine the customers in that niche are probably educated enough to be interested in spite of VW's problems. Heck they may even get some of VW's customers. But, like you said, we'll know for sure shortly.


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