# Scared of a 15,000-25,000 mile oil change?



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

To shed some light on oil drain intervals and the marketing scam behind Jiffy Lube's "3000 miles for a well-oiled machine." (owned by Pennzoil, courtesy of Shell oil), I performed a quick search of some vehicles/engines used in the UK and their respective drain intervals through google.co.uk. 

Fiat Multijet 1.3L: 20,000KM (12,500 miles) or 1 year
Opel 1.3L: 30,000KM (18,000 miles) or 1 year
Fiat 500 1.4L: 30,000KM (18,000 miles) or 1 year
Alfa Romeo 147 1.6 TS: 20,000KM (12,500 miles) or 1 year
Vauxhall Astra 1.4L: 18,000 miles or 1 year
Vauxhall Corsa: 20,000 miles or 1 year
Vauxhall Vectra C: 20,000 miles or 1 year
Peugeot 206 CC: 20,000 miles or 2 years
BMW 325i: 15,000 miles or 1 year
Renault Clio: 18,000 miles or 1 year
Renault Modus: 12,000 miles or 1 year
Ford C-Max 1.6: 12,000 miles or 1 year
Audi Q5: 20,000 miles or 1 year
Mercedes-Benz Vito Taxi: 18,000 - 24,000 miles 
Toyota Corolla/Prius: 10,000 miles or 1 year
Nissan Juke 1.6: 18,000 miles or 1 year
Volkswagen Polo: 15,000km (9,300 miles) or 1 year
Ford Fiesta: 12,000 miles or 1 year
Citroen DS3 Cabrio: 20,000 miles or 1 year (check out the list at http://info.citroen.co.uk/.../caring.../service-intervals)
Dacia Logan: 30,000km (18,000 miles) or 1 year
Audi A1 (and all new audis): 9,000 miles fixed or 18,000 miles variable (oil life monitor) or 1 year. Most of the results I've seen have people changing at 14,000-18,000 miles or 2 years. 

Audi A1 (and all new audies): 9,000 miles fixed or 18,000 miles variable (oil life monitor) or 1 year. Most of the results I've seen have people changing at 14,000-18,000 miles or 2 years. I've been trying to tell people for a long time now that there is a massive oil quality problem in the US, and that a longer drain interval with a quality synthetic oil such as the ones commonly found in the UK and most of Europe are not only perfectly safe, but advised for engine longevity and are capable of saving you quite a bit of money, maintenance, and downtime. Europe uses brands such as ELF, MOTUL, and TOTAL QUARTZ to name a few. You will notice that those are curiously not readily available in the US. 

We do, however, have AMSOIL Signature Series as a true synthetic.
AMSOIL SAE 5W-30 Signature Series 100% Synthetic Motor Oil

We also have AMSOIL XL for those who don't want to push the car past 10,000 miles...
AMSOIL SAE 5W-30 XL Extended Life Synthetic Motor Oil

..and AMSOIL OE for those who want to stick to their manufacturer recommended oil drain intervals.
AMSOIL SAE 5W-30 OE Synthetic Motor Oil


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## socalcruze (Aug 4, 2012)

I just changed the oil in my Cruze last week, the first time since switching to a synthetic (Mobil 1, 5W-30). The first few oil changes I used Dexos 1- approved semi-synthetics, and changed the oil at ~50% oil life monitoring (OLM). At 50% OLM, the semi-synthetic was black and had some burned-oil smell. The synthetic I changed out last week was at about 30% OLM, and looked nearly as clean as new oil. Went with Castrol Syntec 5W-30 this time since it was on sale at Autozone. I'll probably go to 20% OLM this time since the oil looked so clean at 30%.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

socalcruze said:


> I just changed the oil in my Cruze last week, the first time since switching to a synthetic (Mobil 1, 5W-30). The first few oil changes I used Dexos 1- approved semi-synthetics, and changed the oil at ~50% oil life monitoring (OLM). At 50% OLM, the semi-synthetic was black and had some burned-oil smell. The synthetic I changed out last week was at about 30% OLM, and looked nearly as clean as new oil. Went with Castrol Syntec 5W-30 this time since it was on sale at Autozone. I'll probably go to 20% OLM this time since the oil looked so clean at 30%.


I've gone into details regarding this stuff in another thread, but I'll cut it short for this response. 

Mobil 1, Castrol Edge (with Syntec) are not true synthetics. In the mid to late 2000s, the big oil conglomerates sold us out to a petroleum based oil and slapped a "synthetic" label on it. For some companies, it happened as early as 2006, but some of them waited till as late as 2011. In either case, they sold out and the numbers prove it. Around 2011, you will notice that Royal Purple came out with a "new" HPS oil. The truth is that their original Royal Purple formulation was re-badge as Royal Purple HPS, and their standard Royal Purple bottle sold out to a group 3 petroleum oil that thins down to a 20-weight oil within 3,000-5,000 miles and doesn't have their synerlec additive package. 

These new "synthetics" are only called as such due to a legal loophole that allows them to bend the definition of the word. The base stocks are actually called group 3 hydrocracked base stocks, which are nothing more than heavily purified petroleum oils. Conventional oils contain lots of contaminants that are impossible to remove through the refining process, so what they do is put it under high pressure and heat so they can vaporize the oil and separate the lubricating hydrocarbons from the contaminants by molecular weight. They then blast it with ionized hydrogen and liquify it again into a pure oil. 

It is a very pure oil, but it is still a petroleum oil from the ground, and its molecular structure is the same. This is what you now buy as a "synthetic" with a Mobil 1, Valvoline, Pennzoil, Quaker State, Royal Purple, Castrol, etc. badge. Some of these oils use a small percentage of true PAO synthetic base stocks as a blend, but none of them are true 100% synthetic base stocks. AMSOIL XL and AMSOIL OE are among the group 3/group 4 hybrids. AMSOIL Signature Series is a 100% group 4/group 5 PAO/Ester formulation. Redline is a 100% Ester formulation. The oils you are using are just purified petroleum oils sold as "synthetics." They are not true synthetics. It is the industry's biggest sellout, and the worst part of it all is that they didn't tell anyone. Everyone is still buying those overpriced bottles based on the reputation those companies had back when they were real synthetics. 

The oil drain intervals I mentioned in the original post are based on true synthetics, as they do not use petroleum oils in any significant quantities in the UK as it is far more expensive. This is also the reason you see so many Diesels out there. It is simply cheaper than petrol (gas). If you want to see the numbers that prove that all of these oils sold out, I can show them to you as well.


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## WhiteAndBright (Mar 4, 2013)

Love it!! Keep posting info like this or links to articles that you come across doing your T-1 certification testing with Amsoil or even fwd said articles to me I would love to read all of them!!


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## milehigh (Nov 24, 2012)

This is excellent information. Thanks!


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

One of my friends decided a few years ago with his then new chevy trail blazer to use amsoil and change once a year(less than 15,000 to an oil change). Motor was fine for 3 years, but ended up spinning a bearing at 70,000miles. He even swapped the filter at 6 months and did oil analysis. 

As cheap as oil is there is absoutly no good reason to risk thousands of dollars in engine damage with such a long drain interval. Heck even oil analysis cost is not worth it, cost 3/4 the price of just changing your oil. 

I change my oil every 6,000miles or 3 times a year with mobil 1. Total cost for oil changes is under $150 for the year and I don't even have to get my hands dirty as I have the dealer do the work. That also goes along way in building a relationship with the service department and getting a better level of service.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

First of all, I'm a chemist. I've only recently starting researching the oils and their composition, but I do find all of it quite interesting. Hydrocracked means there are chemical reactions taking place to change (shorten) the carbon chain lengths of the molecules. According to the definition of synthetic, the group 3 oils are synthetic in the sense that the molecules in the oil are not the same as the ones in the original crude oil.

Group 4 and 5 start with purer substances (such as PAO (polyalphaolefins), although these substances still come from crude oil). Because of this, the synthesis reactions could in principal (and probably do in real life) give a product with a more controlled composition.

Despite these facts, there is nothing in either synthesis method that guarantees the group 4/5 oils are better or longer lasting lubricants. I'm also not saying the group 3 oils are better either, only that the most basic facts about their synthesis aren't a predictor of quality. I can certainly see why the group 4/5 oils are more expensive. Group 3 would almost certainly be easier/cheaper to make. If the tests and UOA's say that groups 4/5 are better, than so be it, but group 3 oil most definitely are synthetic according to any chemist's definition. The synthesis process is quite different however.

This is my understanding of how synthetics are made based on what I've been able to find and read and my experience as a chemist. I'm not for or against any type of oil. My 02 Oldsmobile ran for 212000 trouble free (from an engine standpoint) miles on valvoline max-life synthetic blend. My 08 Odyssey is at 105k with no issues using mobil 1. My Cruze only has 1000 miles on it and I'm not sure what oil I'm going to run in it yet. That's why I've been reading these types of threads....


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

spacedout said:


> One of my friends decided a few years ago with his then new chevy trail blazer to use amsoil and change once a year(less than 15,000 to an oil change). Motor was fine for 3 years, but ended up spinning a bearing at 70,000miles. He even swapped the filter at 6 months and did oil analysis.
> 
> As cheap as oil is there is absoutly no good reason to risk thousands of dollars in engine damage with such a long drain interval. Heck even oil analysis cost is not worth it, cost 3/4 the price of just changing your oil.
> 
> I change my oil every 6,000miles or 3 times a year with mobil 1. Total cost for oil changes is under $150 for the year and I don't even have to get my hands dirty as I have the dealer do the work. That also goes along way in building a relationship with the service department and getting a better level of service.


I strongly resent the implication that AMSOIL or his extended drain interval caused him to spin a bearing. Why? Because AMSOIL has a warranty that protects him from an engine failure. The fact that you did not mention AMSOIL repairing the vehicle for him suggests that there were other factors involved that he either did not tell you or that you aren't telling us. The warranty statement is pretty clear. If at the time of failure, the oil is tested and is determined to be out of spec, AMSOIL will cover the repair. If the oil is found to be out of spec and the correct interval was followed, AMSOIL will repair the vehicle. 

There are millions of people across all of Europe that go a minimum of 10,000 miles on an oil change (as I very clearly outlined in the first post of this thread), and plenty of vehicles in the US that run well past 15,000 miles on an oil change using AMSOIL synthetic lubricants. There are in fact vehicles that run beyond 25,000 miles on a change of oil, although those are typically courier vehicles. Unless you have proof that the oil caused the failure, please refrain from suggesting that it did, especially when used oil analysis routinely proves that oil is suitable well past the 10,000 mile mark. I can't begin to tell you how many spun bearings I've personally seen with dino oil. A catastrophic oil-related failure is an extremely rare occurrence.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

pL2014 said:


> First of all, I'm a chemist. I've only recently starting researching the oils and their composition, but I do find all of it quite interesting. Hydrocracked means there are chemical reactions taking place to change (shorten) the carbon chain lengths of the molecules. According to the definition of synthetic, the group 3 oils are synthetic in the sense that the molecules in the oil are not the same as the ones in the original crude oil.
> 
> Group 4 and 5 start with purer substances (such as PAO (polyalphaolefins), although these substances still come from crude oil). Because of this, the synthesis reactions could in principal (and probably do in real life) give a product with a more controlled composition.
> 
> ...


I have discussed the basics of hydrocracking. The purpose of hydrocracking is to separate contaminants from hydrocarbons. At the end of the day, you still have a petroleum base stock. The oil is heated and put under pressure so it can be vaporized, where the hydrocarbons can be separated from the contaminants by molecular weight, thus the term cracking. The hydro part refers to the "blasting" of the remaining hydrocarbons by ionized hydrogen to reduce the effects of oxidization. The end result is an oil that will still be limited by the chemical properties of petroleum oils because it is not truly synthetic. It is more accurately defined as _*purified*_. PAO/Ester synthetics are most accurately compared to plastics. Nothing you purify from the ground will take the form of plastic. Like PAO/Ester base stocks, plastics are truly synthetic.

There is in fact a testing method that guarantees the Group 4/5 oils will last longer, which is called NOACK volatility. The oil is heated to 250C for one hour and then measured for weight loss. A good synthetic like AMSOIL Signature Series will come back at 6.9% weight lost. A "hydrocracked" synthetic will come back at 10-15%. NOACK volatility is quite important. 

On top of that, you have a need for far more pour point depressants and viscosity index additives in group 3 base stocks than you do in Group 4/5 base stocks, which further affects volatility. 

These topics have been discussed in great detail in this thread:
http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/10-powertrain/41385-tiered-oils-list-understanding-synthetics.html


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I strongly resent the implication that AMSOIL or his extended drain interval caused him to spin a bearing. Why? Because AMSOIL has a warranty that protects him from an engine failure.


I did not get into the hastle he had to go though even with their warrenty to get things covered, as it would have look like I was trying to make amsoil look bad. Thats not the case. Sure thing were eventually covered but not until he got a third party oil anaysis involved and was considering getting an lawyer if that did not do the trick. 

Any oil on extended drain can be a problem, does not matter the brand. Some people can go 10,000-15,000 miles but to say it safe for everyones driving habbits is not the case. I too have done 10,000 mile oil changes in the past which is around one change a year with no ill effect, I drive 70% or more highway though. 

To each his own, but to me why risk $8,000-10,000 engine relacement and being out your car for a month just to save $50 and 30 minutes on an oil change? Sure some oil breaks down slower but there is no way amsoil or anything else at 10,000+ miles is as good as fresh full sythetic oil. Any suspended soilds not trapped by the filter, metals that are accumilating & acids that are building will start causing more wear. 

This can easily be shown, test fresh amsoil or anything else your running, then test the same oil at 10,000miles. Which one has better numbers? If you think driving around on oil that test ok is as good as changing with fresh oil your fooling yourself.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

spacedout said:


> I did not get into the hastle he had to go though even with their warrenty to get things covered, as it would have look like I was trying to make amsoil look bad. Thats not the case. Sure thing were eventually covered but not until he got a third party oil anaysis involved and was considering getting an lawyer if that did not do the trick.
> 
> Any oil on extended drain can be a problem, does not matter the brand. Some people can go 10,000-15,000 miles but to say it safe for everyones driving habbits is not the case. I too have done 10,000 mile oil changes in the past which is around one change a year with no ill effect, I drive 70% or more highway though.
> 
> ...


Getting a third party analysis done isn't what I would consider a big hassle, but without seeing the difference between the two testing results, I can't comment further so I won't. 

Brand certainly matters. Not all oils are created equal as I have pointed out here in the past. Also, not all _*cars *_are created equal, which is why we test oil to begin with. The notion that those intervals are not safe for everyone is exactly why AMSOIL clarifies the difference between normal service (25k miles) and severe service (15k miles). 

I disagree entirely. I do believe that AMSOIL at 10,000 miles with plenty of moly, boron, and a significant TBN remaining will be better than some other "synthetic" oils out there that lack the anti-wear and extreme pressure additives that the AMSOIL will still have by that point. Suspended solids are not a concern as it is the filter's job to trap any particles large enough to cause damage. That is the entire purpose of the filter to begin with. We are talking about particles that are mere microns in size. As for the acids, that is the entire purpose of testing for TBN. TBN (total base number) refers to the oil's remaining ability to neutralize acids. Some people opt to test TAN (total acidity number) as well. Acids will only begin to cause wear once the oil fails to neutralize them, which again is reflected by testing TBN. It is interesting that you bring this up, as TAN is exactly why I stay clear of Mobil 1. They use Mg-based detergents, which have been proven to be less effective at neutralizing acidity as Ca-based detergents. 

It is obvious that fresh AMSOIL will test better than used AMSOIL. There is no doubt about that, but the problem comes when you try to put a specific mileage on exactly when that oil should be changed. The purpose of this thread was to raise awareness of what the rest of the world is doing. Compared to our marketing-driven 3,000 mile drain interval with dino oil, we are wasting billions of dollars. Why is it that we can't go past 3k miles and they can go 10k-20k miles?

If I gave you a sample of AMSOIL Signature Series at 10,000 miles, I guarantee you it would look better (assming there were no unusual external factors involved) than Mobil 1 at 6,000 miles. Sure, fresh oil will always test better, but *where do you draw the line and why?* Why 6,000 miles and not 7,000 miles or 8,000 miles or 9,000 miles. What data-driven metric do you use to follow that interval? Proximity to oil life monitor recommendations and previous experience with inferior designed vehicles using inferior oils? If all of Europe can go up to 20,000 miles normal service for an oil drain interval, why have you chosen 6,000 miles? One can respond the same way you have and say, "wouldn't the oil test better at 5,000 miles than it does at 6,000?"

We test for wear metals in oil testing analysis to see how well the oil protects that engine. Earlier in the week, I posted an oil testing analysis of an AMSOIL 0W-30 change of oil taken by a friend at 11,200 miles on his 1.4L Turbo Cruze ECO. Engine had ~100k miles on it. The oil had significant fuel contamination from his excessive idling (1-5 hours), which occurred at low (140 degrees) engine temperatures, and his liberal use of the throttle while being tuned by vtuner. Despite the oil thinning to a 20-weight and the anti-wear and extreme pressure additives showing signs of depletion, his wear metals were almost nonexistent, indicating that the oil was doing a perfectly good job at that mileage of protecting his engine. According to Blackstone, TBN becomes too low once it drops below 2.0. His TBN was at 5.6, which indicates that 15,000 miles would have been easily achievable had his conditions not subjected his oil to fuel dilution. 

Again, where do you draw the line and why? I draw the line at 15,000 miles maximum with the 1.4T Cruze no matter what conditions are present. Given that our oil testing analysis with inferior oils such as Mobil 1 have suggested we can go well beyond 10,000 miles, I would say the sky-high TBN of AMSOIL Signature Series will have no problem going another 5k miles. 

Since my vehicle is Trifecta tuned, I will get the analysis done at 10k miles.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> *where do you draw the line and why?* Why 6,000 miles and not 7,000 miles or 8,000 miles or 9,000 miles. What data-driven metric do you use to follow that interval?


This is a great question but the answer should differ slighlty for everyone. I did my own oil testing with the dealer fill dexos blend and it was showing around 7500 miles I could safely go. However I decided to use oil analysys I have seen on cruzetalk(most worse than mine) and averaged 6,000 miles I could go on the dexos blend safely. 

Most people forget the 3 month part of the 3,000 mile oil change and this is just as important. In the winter I idle a ton more and drive allot more short trips on a cold engine. december-april I will not typically drive 6,000 miles, but want to change once the weather warms. This how I chose the every 4 months(or 3 times a year) part of my oil change regiment. 

Since we all know any full synthetic is better than the dealer dexos blend, I switched to mobil 1. Even with mobil 1 I follow the 6,000mile/4 month change interval. This ensures my engine is always running with fresh clean oil and never has broken down or accumilated to much condensation.


EDIT: I should add my DIC oil life monitor has never seen below 40%, on my 2012 it always indicates around a 10,000 mile oil change.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

The engine oils generally available in the US are not of the same quality as the engine oils in Europe. Our gasoline is also lower quality. Unfortunately retraining Americans to pay more for gasoline or engine oil in order to have better fuel economy and vehicle life simply isn't going to happen. Thus the wonderful 3,000 mile oil change stickers even on cars that are designed for longer oil changes. Even with the best engine oil on the planet the Cruze's Oil Life Monitor is still going to trigger a oil change request somewhere around 10,000 miles so this is effective upper limit for oil change mileage, even when using AMSOil. My concern is that ignoring the OLM will cause GM to try to void the power train warranty even when the problem wasn't engine oil related.

The good part of this is that the 2011s and 2012s should be able to safely go to their full OLM change oil trigger, unlike with the AC Delco dexos 1 blend.

Poking around the AMSOil web-site I noticed AMSOil sells different engine oils in Europe from those they sell in the United States. I'm assuming this is due to differences in the gasoline and subsequent burn characteristics.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I have discussed the basics of hydrocracking. The purpose of hydrocracking is to separate contaminants from hydrocarbons. At the end of the day, you still have a petroleum base stock. The oil is heated and put under pressure so it can be vaporized, where the hydrocarbons can be separated from the contaminants by molecular weight, thus the term cracking. The hydro part refers to the "blasting" of the remaining hydrocarbons by ionized hydrogen to reduce the effects of oxidization. The end result is an oil that will still be limited by the chemical properties of petroleum oils because it is not truly synthetic. It is more accurately defined as _*purified*_. PAO/Ester synthetics are most accurately compared to plastics. Nothing you purify from the ground will take the form of plastic. Like PAO/Ester base stocks, plastics are truly synthetic.


I'm not disagreeing with anything else you've said (especially all the bit about volatility which is very good info), but defining hydrocracking as purifying is not correct. Hydrocracking is breaking apart the molecules from the feedstock into smaller ones. This is a chemical reaction, not a purification which is a physical process. This is why group 3 oils are labelled synthetic.

Also, you say nothing that you purify from the ground will take the form of a plastic, but that's exactly what plastics are (except again, not purified). They are made (again chemically) from crude oil via polymerization reactions. These plastics (in this case PAOs) are then chemically reacted into the group 4 synthetics. As I said in my earlier post, there is far more chemistry (synthesis) involved in making the group 4/5 synthetics vs the group 3. Perhaps a better or clearer way to say it is that group 3 oils are synthesized DIRECTLY from crude oil (and may contain some unchanged molecules from the crude, I'm assuming there are limits here as to what can be labeled synthetic), whereas groups 4/5 are synthesized from crude oil derivatives (at least 2 steps). In groups 4/5, I'm assuming none of the molecules are in the same state as they were in the crude (for this you used the term "truly synthetic").

If we ever run out of crude oil from the ground, there will be no plastics or synthetic oils as we know them today as our raw material is gone in all cases.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative as I agree with everything you've said. It's just the chemistry teacher in me being particular about the terminology used to explain it.


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## cruze01 (Mar 25, 2011)

Go study the Oil Analysis reports on bobistheoilguy.com . You'll see that most of the name brand synthetic oils sold in the US today have no problem making it to 10k and beyond.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

cruze01 said:


> Go study the Oil Analysis reports on bobistheoilguy.com . You'll see that most of the name brand synthetic oils sold in the US today have no problem making it to 10k and beyond.


Thats the problem though everyones drive is different. One should base thier change interval on their own oil testing. Thats not even taking into consideration how the same oil behaves differently in each engine, because of that only oil analysis done on the 1.4T should be used as reference.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

spacedout said:


> Thats the problem though everyones drive is different. One should base thier change interval on their own oil testing. Thats not even taking into consideration how the same oil behaves differently in each engine, because of that only oil analysis done on the 1.4T should be used as reference.


Part of the OLM algorithm in the Cruze monitors engine speed, road speed, acceleration and decelerations. Basically it tracks how you drive.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

obermd said:


> Part of the OLM algorithm in the Cruze monitors engine speed, road speed, acceleration and decelerations. Basically it tracks how you drive.


On that same note though it does not know what you actually put in your car and dos not actually test the oil. One could change oil based on the DIC reading but not without actually sending oil in for analysis, otherwise one would just be guessing. 

Since we know none of the algorithum parameters I almost doubt its that complex. My drive is so different from my friend with a cruze, yet both our 2012 cars say around 10,000 miles on the oil life monitor. From this very small sample and what I have read on here it almost appear to be based soley on mileage. I can actually say I never heard of a 2012 cruze that did not indicate a 10,000 mile oil change.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

GM adjusted the algorithm for the 2013s to reduce the estimated oil life by about a third, but the underlying algorithm most likely hasn't changed in the past decade. My 2002 Montana had an OLM as well. Other than the oil itself, there simply aren't very many variables to monitor - engine temperatures, engine speed, vehicle speed, how hard you accelerate with regards to shift points, etc. 

As for the oil quality I believe we can safely assume the OLM assumes the base level of dexos 1 certification.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

spacedout said:


> From this very small sample and what I have read on here it almost appear to be based soley on mileage. I can actually say I never heard of a 2012 cruze that did not indicate a 10,000 mile oil change.


If that was true, everyone's car would report an oil change needed at exactly the same mileage which is not the case.

People who do long steady drives at highway speed will be easiest on oil per mile driven, and people who do many short trips without warming the oil properly will be hardest on their oil per mile driven. Mix that up with a variable based on time and you've probably got 90% of the info the DIC requires to estimate oil life.

My last oil change was done way before the OLM said it was necessary, but working it out the OLM would have gone to 0% somewhere above 18,000km (11,000+ miles) if my driving stayed consistent.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

spacedout said:


> This is a great question but the answer should differ slighlty for everyone. I did my own oil testing with the dealer fill dexos blend and it was showing around 7500 miles I could safely go. However I decided to use oil analysys I have seen on cruzetalk(most worse than mine) and averaged 6,000 miles I could go on the dexos blend safely.
> 
> Most people forget the 3 month part of the 3,000 mile oil change and this is just as important. In the winter I idle a ton more and drive allot more short trips on a cold engine. december-april I will not typically drive 6,000 miles, but want to change once the weather warms. This how I chose the every 4 months(or 3 times a year) part of my oil change regiment.
> 
> ...


We generally don't recommend past 6,000 miles for the dexos blend simply due to the quality of the oil. 

This is what sets apart oil quality pretty strongly; the time interval. The reason for the 3 month part is that the oil oxidizes. The reason why they blast the vaporized hydrocarbons in the hydrocracking process is so the positive polarity of the remaining molecules once the contaminants are removed will not react with the negative polarity of the oxygen in the air and cause it to sludge up. A hydrocracked synthetic will generally be guaranteed for 6 months, and a true synthetic will be guaranteed for 12 months. 



pL2014 said:


> I'm not disagreeing with anything else you've said (especially all the bit about volatility which is very good info), but defining hydrocracking as purifying is not correct. Hydrocracking is breaking apart the molecules from the feedstock into smaller ones. This is a chemical reaction, not a purification which is a physical process. This is why group 3 oils are labelled synthetic.
> 
> Also, you say nothing that you purify from the ground will take the form of a plastic, but that's exactly what plastics are (except again, not purified). They are made (again chemically) from crude oil via polymerization reactions. These plastics (in this case PAOs) are then chemically reacted into the group 4 synthetics. As I said in my earlier post, there is far more chemistry (synthesis) involved in making the group 4/5 synthetics vs the group 3. Perhaps a better or clearer way to say it is that group 3 oils are synthesized DIRECTLY from crude oil (and may contain some unchanged molecules from the crude, I'm assuming there are limits here as to what can be labeled synthetic), whereas groups 4/5 are synthesized from crude oil derivatives (at least 2 steps). In groups 4/5, I'm assuming none of the molecules are in the same state as they were in the crude (for this you used the term "truly synthetic").
> 
> ...


Hey, I'm not going to argue with a chemist lol. I am certainly no chemist, and seeing as you are one, it is probably me who could learn from you. What I do know is based on the research and reading I have done, so I fully acknowledge that some of my information can be either wrong, partially correct, or incomplete. I have no problem with that. 

I had believed that the sole purpose of hydrocracking was to remove contaminants that are otherwise impossible to remove through the standard refining process. 

What is true is that in every test I have seen performed, the group 3 base stocks were inferior, all things kept equal. From what I have seen, the PAO/Ester blends will also maintain viscosity far better. They will thin a lot less in extreme hot temperatures and thicken a lot less in extreme cold temperatures. As a result, they will not require high levels of pour point depressants and viscosity index additives that will deplete over time. In fact, (I still have to verify this), it would appear that the AMSOIL signature series synthetics don't require those additives at all. 

Molecular uniformity is a big selling point for true synthetics. 



spacedout said:


> On that same note though it does not know what you actually put in your car and dos not actually test the oil. One could change oil based on the DIC reading but not without actually sending oil in for analysis, otherwise one would just be guessing.
> 
> Since we know none of the algorithum parameters I almost doubt its that complex. My drive is so different from my friend with a cruze, yet both our 2012 cars say around 10,000 miles on the oil life monitor. From this very small sample and what I have read on here it almost appear to be based soley on mileage. I can actually say I never heard of a 2012 cruze that did not indicate a 10,000 mile oil change.


It is that complex. We've had people join complaining that they have to change their oil in 4,000 miles. We later come to find out that they had a 2.5 mile drive to work every day.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> As a result, they will not require high levels of pour point depressants and viscosity index additives that will deplete over time. In fact, (I still have to verify this), it would appear that the AMSOIL signature series synthetics don't require those additives at all.


It wouldn't surprise me if Amsoil's Sig Series oils used much less VI Improvers than some other oils do. Amsoil's Viscosity Index specs for their oils are actually pretty low compared to most when you consider the premium base stock. The highest VI oil I can find on Amsoil's site is their 20W-50 Premium Protection oil at 172:

AMSOIL SAE 20W-50 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil

All of the Sig Series oils have a VI of 170 or less, and only the 0W oils have a VI of 170.

Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (TGMO) 0W-20 has a VI of 216, and the Idemitsu version of Mazda Genuine Motor Oil (MGMO) has a VI of 220. Both of these oils thicken FAR less with temperature than any of the conventional synthetic oil options, however fluidity at extremely low temperatures doesn't follow that same trend line and is additive dependant (as far as I know, Pour Point Depressants).

VI isn't everything and there's certainly more to a quality oil than just its viscosity, but it's still interesting that Amsoil isn't pushing their oils to higher VI's. Maybe the additives (VII's) required aren't durable enough to endure the extended OCI they recommend with the Sig Series oils... ?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if Amsoil's Sig Series oils used much less VI Improvers than some other oils do. Amsoil's Viscosity Index specs for their oils are actually pretty low compared to most when you consider the premium base stock. The highest VI oil I can find on Amsoil's site is their 20W-50 Premium Protection oil at 172:
> 
> AMSOIL SAE 20W-50 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil
> 
> ...


I don't remember where, but I do remember that the formulation of the base stock (particularly the ester part of it) allows the oil to flow excellently at low temperatures without the addition of a pour point depressant. The base stock formulation allows AMSOIL to achieve with base stocks alone what other companies require additives for. Since there is no additive to deplete, the oil can technically go as long as you can filter it and as long as the TBN will last. The anti-wear additives and extreme pressure additives will keep the wear metals down. Heck, did you see the UOA I posted of the AMSOIL SS 0W-30?

http://imageshack.com/a/img15/6433/98sz.png









Here we have a *11,236* mile *0W-30* oil with a *higher NOACK volatility *than the same 5W-30 oil, *thinning to a 20 weight* oil with *3.6% fuel dilution* and still protecting the engine well enough to result in nearly nonexistent wear metals. Had there not been any fuel dilution, the TBN was high enough to make this a 18,000-20,000 mile oil under those driving conditions.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

ive run my vehicles the last 15yrs on one oil/filter change per year

i use the cheapest 5w30 dino oil i can find whether it be brand name on sale or store brand

ditto with filter, 90% of the time im using a fram filter

anywhere from 5000 to 15000 miles per year

_magically, _​my motors are just fine.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

boraz said:


> ive run my vehicles the last 15yrs on one oil/filter change per year
> 
> i use the cheapest 5w30 dino oil i can find whether it be brand name on sale or store brand
> 
> ...


I'd say magically is the correct term for that. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Fram filter's plastic bypass valve break or the filter element tear from a high pressure cold start. But hey, it's your car. I'll bet your top end is full of more sludge than a gulf coast oil spill.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

With the Amsoil SS oil (Andrei, I will contact you to order this soon), what is the recommended change interval? 15K? Basically I'm starting to see that while I love Pennzoil Ultra, I'm changing my oil every ~7500 miles. But if I can stretch that mileage, I could see the value in paying the premium price for SS.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

boraz said:


> ive run my vehicles the last 15yrs on one oil/filter change per year
> 
> i use the cheapest 5w30 dino oil i can find whether it be brand name on sale or store brand
> 
> ...


When I first got my driver's license, I started driving my parents' '85 Cavalier. They weren't much on maintenance back then and I gave it it's first oil change in at least 10000 miles. I didn't know much about cars at the time but that oil was the sludgiest (if that's even a word) black mess I've ever seen. This was about 1993 and the car had about 100k by then. By 135k, it wouldn't go up hills anymore. I don't know how much of that was engine and how much was transmission, but that was an interesting vehicle in any case especially near the end. 

Personally, I prefer to be pickier about what goes in my engine and I've seen the insides of a Fram filter. I'll stick to using higher quality fluids and filters and changing them slightly more often than admittedly is probably necessary. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure what oil I'm going to end up putting into the Cruze after my 4 free dealer oil changes are done, but I'm probably going to end up using Mobil 1 with Delco filters about every 6-8k. That's what I do with my Odyssey and it's running great so far at 100k.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> With the Amsoil SS oil (Andrei, I will contact you to order this soon), what is the recommended change interval? 15K? Basically I'm starting to see that while I love Pennzoil Ultra, I'm changing my oil every ~7500 miles. But if I can stretch that mileage, I could see the value in paying the premium price for SS.


Oil testing analysis has shown that as long as you don't drive in such a manner as to cause fuel dilution, light driving will take you to at least 12k miles. I drive somewhere between normal and severe so I will get the analysis done at 10k and will post it. It will be several more months however.

Sent from mobile.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

So bottom line is that with the AMSOil signature motor oil I should be able to actually trust the OLM in my 2012 ECO.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

obermd said:


> So bottom line is that with the AMSOil signature motor oil I should be able to actually trust the OLM in my 2012 ECO.


As a minimum, yes. I won't be offended if people don't want to exceed the OLM, but the oil is capable of going longer. 

Sent from mobile.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

10K mile oil change sounds good to me. It would work out annually to about the same price as Pennzoil Ultra. We'll be in touch next week.


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## cruze01 (Mar 25, 2011)

spacedout said:


> Thats the problem though everyones drive is different. One should base thier change interval on their own oil testing. Thats not even taking into consideration how the same oil behaves differently in each engine, because of that only oil analysis done on the 1.4T should be used as reference.


Good point and true, however, my first statement is still accurate in most cases. I've studied probably dozens of these reports from many different makes of cars and drivers. In most cases I saw the oil would have easily done the 10k.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

pL2014 said:


> I'm probably going to end up using Mobil 1 with Delco filters about every 6-8k. That's what I do with my Odyssey and it's running great so far at 100k.


I am really not a fan of Mobil 1's use of Mg-based detergents/dispersants in the oil. This gives a false sense sense of TBN effectiveness and life as the TBN retention will be better but the TAN will also end up higher as Mg-based detergents are less effective at neutralizing acidity. With the exception of Castrol Edge, the rest of the synthetic industry uses exclusively Ca-based detergents.


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## cruze01 (Mar 25, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I am really not a fan of Mobil 1's use of Mg-based detergents/dispersants in the oil. This gives a false sense sense of TBN effectiveness and life as the TBN retention will be better but the TAN will also end up higher as Mg-based detergents are less effective at neutralizing acidity. With the exception of Castrol Edge, the rest of the synthetic industry uses exclusively Ca-based detergents.


Not to mention that most M1 analysis reports I seen reveal high iron readings and excess oil consumption.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cruze01 said:


> Not to mention that most M1 analysis reports I seen reveal high iron readings and excess oil consumption.


I've noticed the same. 

Look for an oil with substantial Boron and Molybdenum (anti-wear and extreme pressure additives) as well as a TBN of at least 8 and a NOACK volatility of no higher than ~11.5%. Phosphorous and Zinc are API mandated below 800ppm.

Sent from mobile.


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## WhiteAndBright (Mar 4, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Look for an oil with substantial Boron and Molybdenum (anti-wear and extreme pressure additives) as well as a TBN of at least 8 and a NOACK volatility of no higher than ~11.5%. Phosphorous and Zinc are API mandated below 800ppm.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


This reminds me of the Charlie Brown episodes when the voice is talking to him and you cant understand it.. Wont wont wont wont wont.... 

I will just use SS Amsoil and know that I am good.. :biggrin:


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

pL2014 said:


> ...I'm not sure what oil I'm going to end up putting into the Cruze after my 4 free dealer oil changes are done...


Will your dealer change your oil more frequently than the OLM suggests? The GM Dexos oil seems to run out of steam before the OLM suggests it needs changing... from what I've seen 5-6000 miles is about as far as you'd want to go on that oil.



pl2014 said:


> ...but I'm probably going to end up using Mobil 1 with Delco filters about every 6-8k. That's what I do with my Odyssey and it's running great so far at 100k.


This is exactly what I did for my 2nd and third oil changes after dumping the factory fill at 4000 kms. I posted a UOA from my last oil change with about 7500 miles on Mobil 1 5W-30 and the experts over at BITOG had nothing bad to say about it:

Mobil 1 5W-30, 12,000km (~7500 mi), '12 Cruze 1.4T | Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline | Bob Is The Oil Guy

I'm generally easy on oil, but I'm hard on the engine as I'm stopping and starting it all the time to save fuel. This is "start-up" wear intensive, since for the first revolution or so the crank and rod bearings have no oil pressure to keep them separated. My UOA was mostly done out of curiosity to see if I was actually hurting the engine. Mobil 1 5W-30 is doing a good job (when changed out at 7500 miles).


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

cruze01 said:


> Not to mention that most M1 analysis reports I seen reveal high iron readings and excess oil consumption.


See my post above. M1 5W-30 SN, no make-up oil in 7500 miles (dipstick still showed FULL) and good wear readings.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> Will your dealer change your oil more frequently than the OLM suggests? The GM Dexos oil seems to run out of steam before the OLM suggests it needs changing... from what I've seen 5-6000 miles is about as far as you'd want to go on that oil.
> 
> This is exactly what I did for my 2nd and third oil changes after dumping the factory fill at 4000 kms. I posted a UOA from my last oil change with about 7500 miles on Mobil 1 5W-30 and the experts over at BITOG had nothing bad to say about it:
> 
> ...


I just got a message from my dealer saying that my 3000 mile oil change is coming up (even though I only have 1100 miles on the car), so I'm assuming they'll change it 4 times whenever I want. It's 2 years or 4 oil changes whichever comes first if I understand the language correctly.

In any case, I definitely won't go past 6000 miles. I'll probably do it around 5k. Based on this and a couple other threads (and going to BITOG, etc), I'm thinking I might switch from Mobil 1 to Pennzoil Ultra (both in my wife's van and for my cruze once my free oil changes are done) assuming I can find it for a reasonable price. Fortunately, the van just got it's 100k service (spark plugs, timing belt, water pump, etc) so I won't need to do anything for a while. 
On a slightly related note, this forum (again with the help of some outside reading) has also convinced me to not put a K&N drop-in in either vehicle. My Intrigue went 212k (and then I traded it, it wasn't dead yet) with a K&N drop-in, but the Delco air filters for the Cruze are only $10 on Rock Auto and the severe service schedule says I only need to change it every 45k. I'm not sure I'll wait that long, but I can replace it 4-5 times for the cost of a K&N (especially once you factor in the cleaning/oil kits). That's over 150k. My main reason for the K&N on my last car was to save me replacing filters all the time, but I used to replace that one (or clean the K&N as it ended up) every 15k. Apparently, I was doing that way too often. My intake was always spotless inside though......


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

How much are you paying for Mobil 1 now?

Sent from mobile.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

$24-25+tax for 5 qts usually.


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## mikestony (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow. All this talk about oil change intervals, oil hydrocracking, molecules, yadda, yadda, yadda makes my mind spin. I'm just a simpleton. 
Impressive as your knowledge is about oil XtremeRevolution, (and I've read your other thread on oil too--very nice!) I think I'll just stick to my 3000 mile or so oil changes  Mobil 1/Wix filter every 6 weeks (3000 miles). 
As long as I can afford to do so, I will.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

pL2014 said:


> $24-25+tax for 5 qts usually.


J E A L O U S

Even on sale we pay over $30/jug for synthetics up here. You all probably know that by now, this was supposed to be my inside voice...

BTW, Penzoil Ultra is a great oil, especially if you can get it for those prices. Penzoil Platinum 5W-30 is also a fantastic oil and has a very high Viscosity Index and great cold flow properties in anything but the absolute coldest weather. I would consider a 0W-30 though, since you're in Michigan where it's cold for several months of the year.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

mikestony said:


> I think I'll just stick to my 3000 mile or so oil changes  Mobil 1/Wix filter every 6 weeks (3000 miles).
> As long as I can afford to do so, I will.


You could afford to do more other things with the money saved! 

3000 mile changes could be done safely with just about any oil. If you're stuck on Mobil 1 you could at least DOUBLE your OCI mileage without a care in the world... then buy yourself a nice X-Mas present every year with the money you're saving!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> J E A L O U S
> 
> Even on sale we pay over $30/jug for synthetics up here. You all probably know that by now, this was supposed to be my inside voice...
> 
> BTW, Penzoil Ultra is a great oil, especially if you can get it for those prices. Penzoil Platinum 5W-30 is also a fantastic oil and has a very high Viscosity Index and great cold flow properties in anything but the absolute coldest weather. I would consider a 0W-30 though, since you're in Michigan where it's cold for several months of the year.


I can get it for $23 plus tax. My PU is $27 plus tax for 5 quarts. I am still trying to wrap my head around how they can produce a GTL base stock blend for that cheap. That's at Walmart however and if I really wanted a group 3 oil, I can get AMSOIL OE for $4.44 a quart by the case or $4.60 a quart individual bottles. No sense in using Mobil 1 and anyone can get AMSOIL's wholesale pricing. The only oil I can't compete with is PU at Walmart pricing. AMSOIL XL has a higher volatility and AMSOIL SS has a better additive package and warranty.

As much as I like saving money, I also proudly support my local family-owned businesses. I'll pay the extra $5 a gallon to buy my oil from my local NAPA store instead of Walmart. 

Sent from mobile.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

I used to only shop at Walmart when I needed oil. Fortunately, Meijers in Michigan has started selling 5 qt jugs and coming very close to Walmart's prices. I was just there this afternoon and forgot to check PU's price.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

mikestony said:


> Wow. All this talk about oil change intervals, oil hydrocracking, molecules, yadda, yadda, yadda makes my mind spin. I'm just a simpleton.
> Impressive as your knowledge is about oil XtremeRevolution, (and I've read your other thread on oil too--very nice!) I think I'll just stick to my 3000 mile or so oil changes  Mobil 1/Wix filter every 6 weeks (3000 miles).
> As long as I can afford to do so, I will.


Jiffy Lube must love you! I haven't used a 3,000 mile oil change in nearly 18 years. I switched to 5,000 mile intervals in 1996 and that was on the old Penzoil dino oil. You are wasting a lot of money changing this frequently.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

I changed my own oil in my 02 Intrigue every 3000 for 210000 miles using Valvoline Max-Life (blend, not the synpower). Engine still ran strong the day I traded it. I kinda wish I had done an UOA at some point in the last decade.... 

That said, I've finally come around to ~7000 mile OCI on my wife's Honda, and I'm still unsure about how long I'll go on the Cruze, but I'm thinking 5k for the dealer oil since I get 4 free oil changes. Then I might go more like 7-8k after that with better oil.


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