# Question On DPF and DEF delete



## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

The OZ tune will reset stored code.

https://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/169...npipe-egr-delete-oz-tuning-flash-install.html


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Hah...oh NOx#2...I'm pretty sure ours is back to occasionally throwing a CEL. Glad I spent a couple days under a car, in the rain, a year and a half ago, on my birthday, replacing that stupid thing...

Can't tell for sure, my regular code reader can't see diesel codes, and my bluetooth reader isn't connecting to my phone.


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## mocorral217 (Sep 28, 2018)

I made the leap on my 2014 and bought the kit from Dale's super store, came with a tuner, egr delete and the down pipe. All the codes went away the the thing is a beast, I even picked up a few mpg's, money well spent.


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## sailurman (Sep 29, 2016)

So my questions are these. If you are out of warranty, which will end up costing more? The $1400. for the tune/delete/downpipe/EGR, or the occasional sensor? How long will you keep the car? Will you reinstall the emissions prior to selling it or sell it illegally? With the chance it comes back at you? I replaced my DEF heater a few months ago and it cost less than $200 + 1 hour. Haven't had an O2 sensor talk to me in over 50K Miles. I can't see doing it even if I were willing to defy the EPA. A tune just to make the car more fun to drive...maybe.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2017)

sailurman said:


> So my questions are these. If you are out of warranty, which will end up costing more? The $1400. for the tune/delete/downpipe/EGR, or the occasional sensor? How long will you keep the car? Will you reinstall the emissions prior to selling it or sell it illegally? With the chance it comes back at you? I replaced my DEF heater a few months ago and it cost less than $200 + 1 hour. Haven't had an O2 sensor talk to me in over 50K Miles. I can't see doing it even if I were willing to defy the EPA. A tune just to make the car more fun to drive...maybe.


I did the delete because I had the DEF sensor and line break after hitting a blown out tire from a semi. The parts to fix it would have been $351.69 and it took about three weeks for the two parts to arrive. I called OZ and was able to get the delete kit overnighted to me on Thursday so I could fix the car that Friday night. I knew I was paying more to fix the vehicle at that time but the countdown had already started and I needed my car. 

My plan now is to keep the vehicle for as long as possible. I know if I tried to sell it privately I would not get the money back for the delete kit or the spare tire setup I purchased. I also had the issue with the #2 sensor before doing the delete but I just kept clearing the code every time it came up.


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## sailurman (Sep 29, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> I did the delete because I had the DEF sensor and line break after hitting a blown out tire from a semi. The parts to fix it would have been $351.69 and it took about three weeks for the two parts to arrive. I called OZ and was able to get the delete kit overnighted to me on Thursday so I could fix the car that Friday night. I knew I was paying more to fix the vehicle at that time but the countdown had already started and I needed my car.
> 
> My plan now is to keep the vehicle for as long as possible.* I know if I tried to sell it privately I would not get the money back for the delete kit or the spare tire setup I purchased.* I also had the issue with the #2 sensor before doing the delete but I just kept clearing the code every time it came up.


"I know if I tried to sell it privately I would not get the money back for the delete kit or the spare tire setup I purchased. " Legally you can't even sell it without restoring it to emissions compliance. You are aware of that right? Just saying.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2017)

sailurman said:


> "I know if I tried to sell it privately I would not get the money back for the delete kit or the spare tire setup I purchased. " Legally you can't even sell it without restoring it to emissions compliance. You are aware of that right? Just saying.


Yes, I was just touching on the portion of doing any modifications to a vehicle and getting the cost back. Someone buying a used car off craigslist doesn't care if the vehicle has upgraded sway bars and Bilsteins they still see it as 2014 Chevy Cruze. A deleted vehicle will not sell for more than a stock one if you do sell it illegally. Most people don't know what a deleted emissions system even means. There are many people selling deleted vehicles online in multiple states so chances are someone from here will attempt to sell their own at a point. I have no plans on selling mine at any point.


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## Rebob0510 (Jun 16, 2019)

sailurman said:


> So my questions are these. If you are out of warranty, which will end up costing more? The $1400. for the tune/delete/downpipe/EGR, or the occasional sensor? How long will you keep the car? Will you reinstall the emissions prior to selling it or sell it illegally? With the chance it comes back at you? I replaced my DEF heater a few months ago and it cost less than $200 + 1 hour. Haven't had an O2 sensor talk to me in over 50K Miles. I can't see doing it even if I were willing to defy the EPA. A tune just to make the car more fun to drive...maybe.


You have valid points, i purchased this car brand new in 2014 and in that time it’s been to the dealer many times all for emissions related problems so I figure if I can remove all that stuff, save myself the hassle of bringing it to the dealer and gain some performance why not delete it. Not only to mention that I would be able to remove the DEF tank and put a actual spare tire where it’s suppesed to go. I’m not really worried about selling the car illegally because I don’t ever plan on selling it, I’ll drive it until I buy something new or give it to a family member. There is a reason that many trucking companies are buying glider kits and installing their own engines that have zero emissions stuff on them. I’ve been around diesel vehicles for awhile and when you are behind a school bus and it does a re gen and you breath some of that smell and it pulls the oxygen from your lungs I don’t see how that can be any better than diesel fumes. I’m just sick of all the emissions related problems that I’ve had over the past 5 years and am looking for a alternative solution for it


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## Rebob0510 (Jun 16, 2019)

mocorral217 said:


> I made the leap on my 2014 and bought the kit from Dale's super store, came with a tuner, egr delete and the down pipe. All the codes went away the the thing is a beast, I even picked up a few mpg's, money well spent.


Quick question, Did you go with the kory willlis version of the tune or the oz tuner version?


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## mocorral217 (Sep 28, 2018)

OZ tuner, used the race 2 tune


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## Paul107 (May 15, 2019)

Anybody else getting the run around from a dealership about replacing this heater, I think the dealership I went too is trying to finagle gmhq and are telling them something different than what the problem really is beacause gmhq called me saying the parts are not under warranty but when I call the dealership they agreed and acknowledged and stated the heater is bad actually said def heater 1 and my def pump is going has low flow but with all the papers I’m reading the reservoir has the heater in it which the heater is the problem
And should be under warranty


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## NHRA (Oct 12, 2014)

it is under a 10 year or 120,000 mile extended warranty.


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## Litlebos (May 3, 2014)

Paul107 said:


> Anybody else getting the run around from a dealership about replacing this heater, I think the dealership I went too is trying to finagle gmhq and are telling them something different than what the problem really is beacause gmhq called me saying the parts are not under warranty but when I call the dealership they agreed and acknowledged and stated the heater is bad actually said def heater 1 and my def pump is going has low flow but with all the papers I’m reading the reservoir has the heater in it which the heater is the problem
> And should be under warranty


I'm due for my second heater @145k miles, so this one would be on me. I have chosen the race ready route. I intend to drive the wheels off her anyway so not concerned with resale, but I would enjoy the potentially longer life and less hassles. Power is a minor side note, but fuel efficiency for me will be nice if I can behave.


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## Rebob0510 (Jun 16, 2019)

UPDATE, I never got around to ordering the Delete and today out of the blue I get code P20B9 and a service exhaust fluid system and a message stating 90 miles until speed is limited to 65 MPH... I guess today is the day I order the delete and get rid of all this emissions BS. Hopefully this will take care of all the problems I have been having. after 120k miles this car would be flawless if it weren't for all the emissions issues I have had. I will update when I get it installed


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## Rebob0510 (Jun 16, 2019)

Just ordered the Stage 2 Oz tuner Kit with EGR delete from Dales super store, Hopefully its the best $1,359 I ever spent LOL


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Rebob0510 said:


> Just ordered the Stage 2 Oz tuner Kit with EGR delete from Dales super store, Hopefully its the best $1,359 I ever spent LOL


Well, you'll never really know the full cost of what keeping the emissions stuff would have cost. However, I will say that I spent the $1400 on removing it when I was quoted $1200 to replace my failing def pump. The car is a LOT more fun to drive but I'm not super keen on the extra noise.I do however appreciate when I get under 4L/100 km consistently. I'd say on average I dropped 1L/100 km of consumption.

I've been wondering why the hell the EPA kept the requirement for EGR when SCR/DPF came into existence. Actually on that note, I'm pretty sure you could do away with DPF entirely if you got rid of EGR.

Why?
When you reintroduce cool oxygen deficient gas into the combustion chamber to reduce nox you reduce the efficiency of complete combustion and produce more soot. Remove EGR and add SCR to get rid of NOX and you're farther ahead. One less piece of crap system to deal with (DPF), no more regens, better fuel economy, less soot, and no nox...

The EPA needs to hire some ******* engineers.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

kelaog said:


> Well, you'll never really know the full cost of what keeping the emissions stuff would have cost. However, I will say that I spent the $1400 on removing it when I was quoted $1200 to replace my failing def pump. The car is a LOT more fun to drive but I'm not super keen on the extra noise.I do however appreciate when I get under 4L/100 km consistently. I'd say on average I dropped 1L/100 km of consumption.
> 
> I've been wondering why the hell the EPA kept the requirement for EGR when SCR/DPF came into existence. Actually on that note, I'm pretty sure you could do away with DPF entirely if you got rid of EGR.
> 
> ...


does the EPA require EGR? or does the EPA just require specific emission levels and leaves it up to manufacturers to meet them?


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

boraz said:


> does the EPA require EGR? or does the EPA just require specific emission levels and leaves it up to manufacturers to meet them?


Good question. I was under the impression that the devices used must be validated by the EPA. I'm not all that familiar with their standards and in my 10 minute search couldn't find anything that specifically from the EPA that stated certain devices must be used, but many other referenced cited that specific devices shall be required for tier 3/4 etc.

Although I find it odd that just about every diesel manufacturer now has an EGR, DPF, and SCR. I'm thinking it might be more geared towards cost than longevity. SCR's are not cheap to build or fabricate so it would make sense for an OEM to include EGR and DPF rather than building a larger SCR?


Edit: On further search the EPA only sets emissions limits and does not specify how to meet them. This is an OEM problem. I do believe the limits especially for smaller engines could be met with good tuning and only an SCR for NOX reduction.I retract my comment.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

If anyone wants to have a good read of how injection timing and EGR impact NOX and particle sizes have a read through this:









Particulate emissions from diesel engines: correlation between engine technology and emissions


In the last 30 years, diesel engines have made rapid progress to increased efficiency, environmental protection and comfort for both light- and heavy-duty applications. The technical developments include all issues from fuel to combustion process to exhaust ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

kelaog said:


> Good question. I was under the impression that the devices used must be validated by the EPA. I'm not all that familiar with their standards and in my 10 minute search couldn't find anything that specifically from the EPA that stated certain devices must be used, but many other referenced cited that specific devices shall be required for tier 3/4 etc.
> 
> Although I find it odd that just about every diesel manufacturer now has an EGR, DPF, and SCR. I'm thinking it might be more geared towards cost than longevity. SCR's are not cheap to build or fabricate so it would make sense for an OEM to include EGR and DPF rather than building a larger SCR?
> 
> ...


yeah, cuz vw didnt use def and they met standards...or did they?

but was pretty sure EPA didnt care how an engine met levels, just that it did.

im not sure anyone has compared true environmental impact between:

current emissions engines-- less pm, less nox, but less mpg, plus the def, plus the replacement of all the parts every ~200,000 miles (dpfs, sensors,etc...) and the engine itself that now has a shorter lifespan

deleted emission engine- more pm, more nox, but more mpg and engine has longer life.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

boraz said:


> yeah, cuz vw didnt use def and they met standards...or did they?
> 
> deleted emission engine- more pm, more nox, but more mpg and engine has longer life.


VW had software that detected when the car was in testing mode which turned on all the emissions stuff and disabled the emissions when the car was driven in real world. Basically if the wheels were turning and there was load on the engine but the accelerometer showed 0, emissions on.

I've actually seen people test PM before and after deleting and the PM values were lower after the delete. NOX however was through the roof. It would really depend on the tune whether or not you get a good PM value. My tune is pretty clean aside from the odd time I stomp on it and the fuel enrichment is quicker than the turbo for a second. 

If you read through that report I sent you, you'll see quite clearly there is an inverse relationship between NOX and PM when using EGR. If you eliminate EGR and advance timing you can reduce PM significantly.


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

boraz said:


> ...im not sure anyone has compared true environmental impact...


...and THAT is the golden question...

Trucking millions of gallons of DEF around the world in the name of emissions reduction is by definition self-defeating to some degree or another.

Five US states make up approx 30% of the total US diesel consumption (California, Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas)...11 billion gallons annually.

Using Average DEF dosing rate @ 2% of diesel consumption that comes to 220,000,000 gallons of DEF.

Assuming ALL this DEF is shipped in bulk form...(it isn’t, some is packaged/shipped to retailers)...and a fuel tanker capacity of 11,000 gallons, it takes 20,000 fuel tankers to move DEF via tanker every year. 

And that’s just the top 5 US states...

Emissions control (EPA) has its place, but over the decades emissions reduction has become highly politicized and big busine$$.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Rivergoer said:


> ...and THAT is the golden question...
> 
> Trucking millions of gallons of DEF around the world in the name of emissions reduction is by definition self-defeating to some degree or another.
> 
> ...


Trucking is only half the cost. Ammonia, around here anyways, is created using natural gas and steam at very high pressures. It is incredibly energy intensive.


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## everett33 (Aug 1, 2018)

kelaog said:


> Well, you'll never really know the full cost of what keeping the emissions stuff would have cost. However, I will say that I spent the $1400 on removing it when I was quoted $1200 to replace my failing def pump. The car is a LOT more fun to drive but I'm not super keen on the extra noise.I do however appreciate when I get under 4L/100 km consistently. I'd say on average I dropped 1L/100 km of consumption.
> 
> I've been wondering why the hell the EPA kept the requirement for EGR when SCR/DPF came into existence. Actually on that note, I'm pretty sure you could do away with DPF entirely if you got rid of EGR.
> 
> ...


Did your exhaust note get louder after the delete? Is it louder at all speeds, or only when accelerating?


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

everett33 said:


> Did your exhaust note get louder after the delete? Is it louder at all speeds, or only when accelerating?


start up and idle, definately louder

driving, i dont notice it...i mostly listen to podcasts, not necessarily loud music to drown it out

im installing sound deadener in the trunk today, see if any change inside cabin, but yeah ppl will hear it more than non delete


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

everett33 said:


> Did your exhaust note get louder after the delete? Is it louder at all speeds, or only when accelerating?


If the SCR remains in place (with the injectors disabled obviously) then it's only a little louder at idle and not noticeable at all while driving, maybe under heavy load a little. It wasn't very noticeable when the SCR was still there (DPF removed). After the SCR was removed on mine it was much louder at idle, and more cabin noise while accelerating around town. It isn't that noticeable on the highway however upon cruising speeds. I would say it is quieter than a honda civic with a fart pipe especially at higher rpms.

I'm looking at adding a muffler to mine. I'll take a decibel reading when I start it up tomorrow morning for you (using an iphone) and you can compare that to stock. Right now I can hear it a block away and has a distinct grunt when it fires, after that all you hear is the VGT noise (like a turbo jet sound)


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## Rebob0510 (Jun 16, 2019)

Got my kit Delivered Tuesday and went straight to the project when I was done with work. Overall I would say it was a 6.5 out of 10 difficulty wise... only because there are bolts you have to remove that are almost impossible to see lol. I used the thread on here as a guide and it helped a bunch! Getting the DPF off was somewhat of a challenge, pretty much followed the instructions and it came off in about a hour, the turbo clamp from the NY Winters was tough to get free even with the nut loose, I ended up taking a long piece of round aluminum rod and whacked the end of the threads a few time to get it loose. The install of the new downpipe was super simple, sensors will only go where they are supposed to go. EGR delete seemed easy but turned out to be a little project. The top side was easy to get off, the bottoms side not so much... the bottom bolt was impossible, I ended up using a snap on scope camera pointed at the bolt and then was able to get the 5mm Allen on the bottom bolt. After thatvwas removed I unplugged the 2 connectors and installed the 2 block off plates. The throttle actuator plug was DIFFICULT, I ended up using the same scope camera because you cannot are the plug. I used a long pick to remove the clip and then struggled to unplug the plug, it was tough. Loading the tune was super simple, followed instructions and the nice thing when I started it all my errors and CEL was gone. Drove it home 45 miles and wow did it wake this car up, the throttle is so much more responsive and the torque it gained is very noticeable. When accelerating from a dead stop it no longer has that lag, it has instant throttle response. Noise at idle is slightly louder but when driving it wasn’t any more noticeable. Overall I am glad I did this, next is to remove the DEF tank and get a spare tire and put it where it’s supposed to go and free up trunk space lol

Rob


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

kelaog said:


> If the SCR remains in place (with the injectors disabled obviously) then it's only a little louder at idle and not noticeable at all while driving, maybe under heavy load a little. It wasn't very noticeable when the SCR was still there (DPF removed). After the SCR was removed on mine it was much louder at idle, and more cabin noise while accelerating around town. It isn't that noticeable on the highway however upon cruising speeds. I would say it is quieter than a honda civic with a fart pipe especially at higher rpms.
> 
> I'm looking at adding a muffler to mine. I'll take a decibel reading when I start it up tomorrow morning for you (using an iphone) and you can compare that to stock. Right now I can hear it a block away and has a distinct grunt when it fires, after that all you hear is the VGT noise (like a turbo jet sound)


I got a decibel reading this morning. It's about 50 dB from a half block away, and up to 76 dB as you approach the rear of the car. It's loud. This is with the DPF and SCR removed.


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