# Low Speed Pre Ignition (LSPI) Event



## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

With the LE2 Turbo so subjected to LSPI events.
I was wondering how to know if you've had or are having one?
Is there any noise associated with the event like way pack when unleaded gas 
first came out there was a distinctive pinging sound.
I would think that if there is ignition before the piston is at the top of it's stroke
that it may create a load bang? Or can you tell by the gas peddle that something
is not right?
It's kinda scary to think that there is nothing to let you know this has happened or is happening.


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## Cruzen18 (Jan 28, 2018)

Might have engine noise or rough idle.

You having symptoms even after tune?


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

Cruzen18 said:


> Might have engine noise or rough idle.
> 
> You having symptoms even after tune?


 No I am just wondering if It does happen will I know it or is it a silent engine killer?
The rough Idle part would be after the damage is done, I'm more concerned with at that moment.


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## Cruzen18 (Jan 28, 2018)

I know there were some changes made to pistons and such, after either the 2016 or 2017 model years. Have we seen any confirmed instances of LSPI in the 2018's yet? and better yet, AFTER a tune?


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## llbanks522 (Nov 23, 2017)

alanl11 said:


> No I am just wondering if It does happen will I know it or is it a silent engine killer?
> The rough Idle part would be after the damage is done, I'm more concerned with at that moment.


I too am wondering how to tell if your’re having an LSPI event. 80%+ of my driving is short around town errands and trips. There are times when going 30/35 and trying to pick up a little speed the engine just seams to lug along unless you punch in the accelerator. There’s no noise or anything just no get up. If these are true LSPI events then I think I’m doomed to crack a piston. I only have 3,400 miles on my 2017 LT since purchasing it in November last year. Any ideas? (Yes I’m using 93 Octane and can only assume the dealer put in the correct oil on the first free change).


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

llbanks522 said:


> I too am wondering how to tell if your’re having an LSPI event. 80%+ of my driving is short around town errands and trips. There are times when going 30/35 and trying to pick up a little speed the engine just seams to lug along unless you punch in the accelerator. There’s no noise or anything just no get up. If these are true LSPI events then I think I’m doomed to crack a piston. I only have 3,400 miles on my 2017 LT since purchasing it in November last year. Any ideas? (Yes I’m using 93 Octane and can only assume the dealer put in the correct oil on the first free change).


Exactly, dealer did my free oul change first of 2 but I think I will take care of it on my own from now on and use Amsoil.

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## llbanks522 (Nov 23, 2017)

alanl11 said:


> Exactly, dealer did my free oul change first of 2 but I think I will take care of it on my own from now on and use Amsoil.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Same here ! I do have one more freebie.


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

Cruzen18 said:


> I know there were some changes made to pistons and such, after either the 2016 or 2017 model years. Have we seen any confirmed instances of LSPI in the 2018's yet? and better yet, AFTER a tune?


 Yes it seemed limited to the 16.5 and 17's at some point during the 2017 production I heard GM went with a better piston. Supposedly all the 18's have them, this remains to be seen. But I have heard of not a single confirmed 18 piston failure due to LSPI, fingers crossed as it may still be to early to tell for the 18's.
If they started selling them lets say Late Sept early Oct that's about 9 months the failures seemed to happen starting at around 17K so we are probably just getting into the time frame that we may start to see them.


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## KillerDad (Jan 25, 2018)

This article has a few things you are looking for including the sounds it should make.
https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

AMSOIL really is your best defense against LSPI on these engines. If you're not running it now, even the OE or XL, you really ought to consider it. 

Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I can get you set up. We have the following that all have exceptional protection against LSPI: 

OE 5W-30, for OEM drain intervals: https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...synthetic-motor-oil/?code=OEFQT-EA&zo=5224266

XL 5W-30, for 12k mile/1 year drain intervals: https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...synthetic-motor-oil/?code=XLFQT-EA&zo=5224266

Signature Series: for 15k mile severe/25k mile normal/1 year service intervals, and the best protection in hard driving and tuned conditions: https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...synthetic-motor-oil/?code=ASLQT-EA&zo=5224266

We also have a 15k mile filter that fits the Gen2: https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...il-ea-oil-filters/?code=EA15K50-EA&zo=5224266


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

alanl11 said:


> Yes it seemed limited to the 16.5 and 17's at some point during the 2017 production I heard GM went with a better piston. Supposedly all the 18's have them, this remains to be seen. But I have heard of not a single confirmed 18 piston failure due to LSPI, fingers crossed as it may still be to early to tell for the 18's.
> If they started selling them lets say Late Sept early Oct that's about 9 months the failures seemed to happen starting at around 17K so we are probably just getting into the time frame that we may start to see them.


LSPI is not about pistons, but about tuning and engine oil. Improving pistons won't do anything in these instances. The forces are so violent that they will still cause damage.


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

KillerDad said:


> This article has a few things you are looking for including the sounds it should make.
> https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp


I also found this
https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-mobil-advantage/mobil-1-modern-engines/lspi-protection


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## nobog (Oct 25, 2011)

I had a '15 with the 6mt, now a '18 with the 6mt and I can tell you the '18 is geared way higher, whereas the 15 would be 2600 rpm @ 60 the 18 is like 2000 rpm @ 60. The 18 feels like it has LESS torque than the 15, which makes it easy to lug the motor where it is not happy. Exactly what you don't want to do - pre ignition. Heck, the upshift light might to go from 5-6 doesn't happen till about 60 mph. The 15 would say 45 mph. All I can say is that now on the 18, 6th gear really is an overdrive. Its like if the 15 had a 7 sp.

On a side note, one thing I did not know until I read the manual - shift away with the cruise control on! Don't know if that worked on the 15 but I never tried. And... this thing has some kind of hill assist where it will not roll backwards (for a second or 2) - no mention of this in the manual however.

jk

edit - 2K rpm on the 18 is actually closer to 65 mph, in any event about a 500 rpm difference between the 15 and 18 per gear.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

alanl11 said:


> I also found this
> https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-mobil-advantage/mobil-1-modern-engines/lspi-protection


Unfortunately, their efforts have proven to be lacking. I have a buddy with a 2016 Malibu 2.0T that just had the engine replaced due to a blown piston caused by LSPI running...you guessed it, Mobil 1.

There is a big difference between simply meeting dexos1 gen2 specs, which still allow 4 LSPI events to occur during the duration of the test, and outright claiming that your product allows ZERO LSPI events in the same test across 5 consecutive test runs. Mobil 1 doesn't make any such claims.


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Unfortunately, their efforts have proven to be lacking. I have a buddy with a 2016 Malibu 2.0T that just had the engine replaced due to a blown piston caused by LSPI running...you guessed it, Mobil 1.
> 
> There is a big difference between simply meeting dexos1 gen2 specs, which still allow 4 LSPI events to occur during the duration of the test, and outright claiming that your product allows ZERO LSPI events in the same test across 5 consecutive test runs. Mobil 1 doesn't make any such claims.


I agree 
The only oil that Claims Zero LSPI events
Is Amsoil, whether is OE, XL, or The Signature Series. 
One reason I suspect is Mobil 1 and all the "Full " synthetic oils have a much lower ignition point that the 100% Synthetic Amsoil product.
I never realized there was a differance by just looking at the label Full synthetic 100% synthetic what's the differance?
Full Synthetic oils are made from a lower grade of the crude oil that is not really synthetic were Amsoil ia made from the higher end that is truly synthetic and wont flash as easy see the Video

https://youtu.be/Y-qP9npp1gg
https://youtu.be/NCT24nozMYM

Mobile 1 actually test out as the worst in this video
https://youtu.be/g3y-1lxMTxE



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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

I have had the car cough, rattle, and then have absolutely zero power for a second. I think those have been LSPI events. The handful of times it's happened, I had tried 87/89 octane and was running the dealer Dexos 1 oil. 

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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Valvoline new modern engine synthetic addresses the lspi issues with proven testing in the GDI turbo engines . Marketed since May .


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

jblackburn said:


> I have had the car cough, rattle, and then have absolutely zero power for a second. I think those have been LSPI events. The handful of times it's happened, I had tried 87/89 octane and was running the dealer Dexos 1 oil.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I'd go to 91 octain and get rid of the dealer oil. That's what I did as precautionary action.

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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

alanl11 said:


> I'd go to 91 octain and get rid of the dealer oil. That's what I did as precautionary action.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Lol, done ~2 years ago. Been well behaved since. 

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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

Pennzoil Platinum:

https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/education/know-your-oil/what-you-need-to-know-about-api-sn-plus.html


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## Cruzen18 (Jan 28, 2018)

Taken from the above link...

Maintaining your vehicle’s performance means protecting turbocharged engines from Low-Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI). Automakers are the driving force behind API SN PLUS, a new supplemental motor oil specification that protects turbocharged engines. Pennzoil products with this designation protect against LSPI."

but to what standard?


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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

Cruzen18 said:


> Taken from the above link...
> 
> Maintaining your vehicle’s performance means protecting turbocharged engines from Low-Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI). Automakers are the driving force behind API SN PLUS, a new supplemental motor oil specification that protects turbocharged engines. Pennzoil products with this designation protect against LSPI."
> 
> bot to what standard?


To what standard? I have no idea....its Marketing, as all brands of oil with Dexos 1 rating state basically the same. One of the stated causes of LSPI is oil droplets in the combustion chamber, which BTW, fouls the intake valves. Heavier weight oil and a catch can may help offset both issues.


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

17Cruzer said:


> To what standard? I have no idea....its Maketing, as all brands of oil with Dexos 1 rating state basically the same. One of the stated causes of LSPI is oil droplets in the combustion chamber, which BTW, fouls the intake valves. Heavier weight oil and a catch can may help offset both issues.


1 could only presume that you are showing your years young man .

It is the formulation of the additive package that has had to be modified to eliminate the possibility of pre ignition . In theory now the testing has proven that calcium and or sodium particulates contributed to the knock events . The industries have been at work for the past few years testing and refining these additive packages to prevent this occurrence ..
If you have a GDI Tuboed engine you really should research this thuroughly .


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

17Cruzer said:


> To what standard? I have no idea....its Maketing, as all brands of oil with Dexos 1 rating state basically the same. One of the stated causes of LSPI is oil droplets in the combustion chamber, which BTW, fouls the intake valves. Heavier weight oil and a catch can may help offset both issues.


It's to the GM Dexos 1 standard,

"The Auto-Oil Advisory Panel, which is developing the standard, has commissioned a new testing method for LSPI. This test is based on a Ford engine and is designated the API Sequence IX test. LSPI performance is also tested in the General Motors-specific LSPI test that is part of their dexos1™ Gen 2 testing protocol."
from the penoil sight
​


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

brian v said:


> 1 could only presume that you are showing your years young man .
> 
> It is the formulation of the additive package that has had to be modified to eliminate the possibility of pre ignition . In theory now the testing has proven that calcium and or sodium particulates contributed to the knock events . The industries have been at work for the past few years testing and refining these additive packages to prevent this occurrence ..
> If you have a GDI Tuboed engine you really should research this thuroughly .


Maybe that's why AMSoil is the only one to claim ZERO LSPI events where Dexos 1 allows for up to 4 events. Full synthetic oils are not really synthetic they have a petroleum base, AMSoil is 100% synthetic, maybe having less sodium and calcium deposit in it?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

brian v said:


> 1 could only presume that you are showing your years young man .
> 
> It is the formulation of the additive package that has had to be modified to eliminate the possibility of pre ignition . In theory now the testing has proven that calcium and or sodium particulates contributed to the knock events . The industries have been at work for the past few years testing and refining these additive packages to prevent this occurrence ..
> If you have a GDI Tuboed engine you really should research this thuroughly .


The additive packages are a contributing factor to the primary root cause: oxidation stability. Don't lose sight of that. Their job also isn't to eliminate LSPI but to reduce frequency down to levels that allow them to pass minimum performance specifications. 

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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

alanl11 said:


> It's to the GM Dexos 1 standard,
> 
> "The Auto-Oil Advisory Panel, which is developing the standard, has commissioned a new testing method for LSPI. This test is based on a Ford engine and is designated the API Sequence IX test. LSPI performance is also tested in the General Motors-specific LSPI test that is part of their dexos1[emoji769] Gen 2 testing protocol."
> from the penoil sight
> ​


The sequence IX test will allow FIVE LSPI events to still pass. Remember, this is a bare minimum spec here. It will not guarantee absolute protection. 

GM dexos1 gen2 allows FOUR LSPI events. 

These are two different tests that effectively approach the same issue but both still allow LSPI events and have no limitation on the severity of those events, just the frequency. 

Furthermore, as oils improve to provide better protection against LSPI, auto makers will be adjusting their tuning again to re-introduce the conditions that produced LSPI events in the first place in the never ending search for better efficiency. Expect that to cause more problems down the road, especially with oils that barely pass the LSPI tests. 

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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The additive packages are a contributing factor to the primary root cause: oxidation stability. Don't lose sight of that. Their job also isn't to eliminate LSPI but to reduce frequency down to levels that allow them to pass minimum performance specifications.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


Exactly my point Amsoil does eliminate it completely 
I don't want ANY LSPI events.

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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Bottom line is all of the auto makers will talk about LSPI and will talk about protecting against it but will not explain to what degree or how effectively they protect against it. To date AMSOIL is the only company to advertise complete protection in GM's test on even one test run, let alone five consecutive runs.

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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Bottom line is all of the auto makers will talk about LSPI and will talk about protecting against it but will not explain to what degree or how effectively they protect against it. To date AMSOIL is the only company to advertise complete protection in GM's test on even one test run, let alone five consecutive runs.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


That's what I'm taking about.

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## crunch21 (Jul 16, 2018)

17Cruzer said:


> To what standard? I have no idea....its Maketing, as all brands of oil with Dexos 1 rating state basically the same. One of the stated causes of LSPI is oil droplets in the combustion chamber, which BTW, fouls the intake valves. Heavier weight oil and a catch can may help offset both issues.


not sure about the heavier weight oil, they switched to 0w-20 on the 18's, pretty sure most of the other mini-engine-turbo cars use the same.

does anyone know if the new civics are having these issues? i havent heard of any 18's cracking pistons so maybe it was the 5w-30 being used?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

crunch21 said:


> not sure about the heavier weight oil, they switched to 0w-20 on the 18's, pretty sure most of the other mini-engine-turbo cars use the same.
> 
> does anyone know if the new civics are having these issues? i havent heard of any 18's cracking pistons so maybe it was the 5w-30 being used?


Viscosity has nothing to do with this. The push for 0W-20 is exclusively for CAFE requirements. If anything, dropping viscosity will only make it worse as you're raising the volatility of the oil as a result.


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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

brian v said:


> 1 could only presume that you are showing your years young man .
> 
> It is the formulation of the additive package that has had to be modified to eliminate the possibility of pre ignition . In theory now the testing has proven that calcium and or sodium particulates contributed to the knock events . The industries have been at work for the past few years testing and refining these additive packages to prevent this occurrence ..
> If you have a GDI Tuboed engine you really should research this thuroughly .


Young man? LOL! I wish! The reformulation of oil is not the issue. Oil droplets in the combustion chamber is the issue. Oil will always be ingested; bypassing rings and/or valve guides. But in port injection the oil is thinned out by gasoline, therefore no oil droplets. Not so in direct injection.


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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

alanl11 said:


> Maybe that's why AMSoil is the only one to claim ZERO LSPI events where Dexos 1 allows for up to 4 events. Full synthetic oils are not really synthetic they have a petroleum base, AMSoil is 100% synthetic, maybe having less sodium and calcium deposit in it?


Maybe so, but Amsoil doesn't carry the Dexos 1 rating.


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## Cruzen18 (Jan 28, 2018)

17Cruzer said:


> Maybe so, but Amsoil doesn't carry the Dexos 1 rating.


Not because they don't measure up to the standard, but because they won't PAY FOR IT!


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## llbanks522 (Nov 23, 2017)

17Cruzer said:


> Maybe so, but Amsoil doesn't carry the Dexos 1 rating.


Wonder if a dealership would try to have your engine warranty voided with GM if you came in with cracked pistons and showed documents that you performed required oil changes every 7.5k miles using only Amsoil?


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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

llbanks522 said:


> Wonder if a dealership would try to have your engine warranty voided with GM if you came in with cracked pistons and showed documents that you performed required oil changes every 7.5k miles using only Amsoil?


Technically, yes. Dexos 1 rated oil is required.


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

17Cruzer said:


> Technically, yes. Dexos 1 rated oil is required.


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

alanl11 said:


> They 11a
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Correction

IMO No it wont void your warranty the owners manual only says to "ASK" for and use Dexos 1. They can't put any stipulations on warrany coverage like tgat, due to the Magnos and Moss act. It would never hold up in court and they know it.









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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

The *required oil* can be any oil having the Dexos 1 rating.


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## llbanks522 (Nov 23, 2017)

17Cruzer said:


> The *required oil* can be any oil having the Dexos 1 rating.


My 2017 owners manual shows on page 272. “Failure to use the recommended engine oil or equivalent can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.” IMHO any dealership that tried to void your engine warranty for using Amsoil would have to have one big set of brass balls trying to prove in court that Amsoil is not the “equivalent” of the recommended oils, but who knows stranger things have happened.


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## crunch21 (Jul 16, 2018)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Viscosity has nothing to do with this. The push for 0W-20 is exclusively for CAFE requirements. If anything, dropping viscosity will only make it worse as you're raising the volatility of the oil as a result.


would you suggest ignoring the manufacturer suggested oil weight and using the 5w-30 synthetic used in prior models with the same engine? Or do you think the redesigned pistons in the 2018 need the 0w-20 due to different rings?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

crunch21 said:


> would you suggest ignoring the manufacturer suggested oil weight and using the 5w-30 synthetic used in prior models with the same engine? Or do you think the redesigned pistons in the 2018 need the 0w-20 due to different rings?


I think the viscosity was changed entirely for fuel efficiency reasons. I would just run the viscosity the manufacturer recommends. 

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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

llbanks522 said:


> My 2017 owners manual shows on page 272. “Failure to use the recommended engine oil or equivalent can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty.” IMHO any dealership that tried to void your engine warranty for using Amsoil would have to have one big set of brass balls trying to prove in court that Amsoil is not the “equivalent” of the recommended oils, but who knows stranger things have happened.



Without the DEXOS 1 designation, your engine warranty could be void. That's the chance one takes using a non-recommended oil. 
https://oilcanhenrys.com/blog/dexos-and-your-gm-vehicle/

However...…….
Dexos 1 AMSOIL’s got it.

https://www.amsoil.com/lookup/auto-and-light-truck/2017/chevrolet/cruze/1-4l-4-cyl-engine-code-m-le2-2-turbo/us-volume/​


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## 17Cruzer (Apr 18, 2017)

****​


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

17Cruzer said:


> Without the DEXOS 1 designation, your engine warranty could be void. That's the chance one takes using a non-recommended oil.
> https://oilcanhenrys.com/blog/dexos-and-your-gm-vehicle/
> 
> However...…….
> ...


To complete that thought, it could be voided, if the oil doesn't meet the specification *and *a mechanical failure exists.


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## nobog (Oct 25, 2011)

Note the date from the link provided by _17Cruzer_:
http://www.amsoil.lube-direct.com/2011/04/dexos-1-amsoil-has-it/

April 2011


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

nobog said:


> Note the date from the link provided by _17Cruzer_:
> http://www.amsoil.lube-direct.com/2011/04/dexos-1-amsoil-has-it/
> 
> April 2011


That doesn't really change anything.


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## alanl11 (Apr 8, 2018)

XtremeRevolution said:


> That doesn't really change anything.


No it doesnt so they cant really fight it. And I doubt if they would I'm going to ask my dealer about that next weekend.

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