# Plans to replace Factory audio



## MjC (Dec 23, 2012)

=S your choices are rather limiting lol

you can probably get more for less if you decide on shopping online

good luck on your venture!


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## Chevyderek72 (May 16, 2011)

You can install a amp or amps to power subwoofers and speakers while keeping the factory radio. Or you can swap out to an aftermarket unit for the radio. And it just depends on exaclty what you want if you only want spend 1000 dollars. Can you give us an idea or exactly what you were looking for?

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## tecollins1 (Nov 6, 2011)

click on the blue link in my signature to get some ideas

def talk to Xtremerevolution he is the Audio Guru around here. he also sells the best quality boxes and baffles i've seen anywhere. im sure he can get you a good system on that budget


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Is there any reason you're limiting yourself to expensive name-brand products at a local retail store? If I understand this correctly, you're on a budget. There are far more and far better options out there. 

That said, I'll need to know the following if you want help:

1. What kind of music do you listen to? I'm looking for genres, and dates. Before 1999? After 1999? If you could give me a percentage, what would it be?
2. What are your goals? Sound quality? Pure output/loudness? Smallest subwoofer box possible? 
3. What have you heard in the past that you liked?

For only $1000, I would not recommend replacing the factory radio, but instead grabbing the PAC AA-GM44 harness/LOC. 

You may know this, but I am strongly against per-fabricated subwoofer boxes. You'll never see me recommend one because they are built with very low structural integrity, overall quality, and because each box needs to be specifically designed around the sub being used and the music being played to achieve good results. I do sell custom built and designed subwoofer boxes, but I'm not just saying what I did to try to make a sale; I'm telling you this to help you make more informed purchasing decisions.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Is there any reason you're limiting yourself to expensive name-brand products at a local retail store? If I understand this correctly, you're on a budget. There are far more and far better options out there. *Because I wouldn't know how to install it, I have a fear of breaking something. But I suppose I could give it a shot with a DIY project.*That said, I'll need to know the following if you want help:1. What kind of music do you listen to? I'm looking for genres, and dates. Before 1999? After 1999? If you could give me a percentage, what would it be?*I will be listening to my Pandora Radio Stations: Dubstep(40%), ChillStep(10%), Dance Music(10%), Electronic(10%), Hip Hop(10%), R&B(10%), Modern Rock Music(10%) *2. What are your goals? Sound quality? Pure output/loudness? Smallest subwoofer box possible?
> 
> *Best Sound Quality at reasonably loud levels but not over the top loud.*
> *Strong Low Frequency Bass levels with some good boom for the Dubstep music.*
> ...


I would prefer to keep the factory radio unless there are any huge advantages in upgrading.Thanks guys!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

See, this is why I asked these questions. You'd be better served with a subwoofer that could produce heavy synthetic bass notes. The reason why I ask these questions is to determine what would suit your purposes best. Around 1999, recording artists began to change the bass notes in their music to make them longer and higher in amplitude. You'll notice this in a variety of music. It went from more natural bass to more synthetic bass, and not all subwoofers are good at producing both. I have an Image Dynamics IDQ12 V2 for sale, but I wouldn't sell it to you as it would not work well with the type of music you listen to. 

One thing to keep in mind is that you can't really have deep and powerful bass without a larger enclosure. What would you say is an acceptable enclosure size? If you can give me an idea of what you would consider to be an acceptable size, I could see what I can design around that constraint. To give you an example, my "SQL" 8" subwoofer kit uses 0.5 cubic feet of space (which is *very *small for the kind of low frequency extension it provides), coming in at 10" H x 22" W x 8" D. That's about as small as you can get, but if you could go larger, we would have more options. 

Hertz is not bad, but I generally try to look for other options in the home audio arena as the drivers are equally suitable for car audio use, but are a much better value due to not having a fancy name tagged on them. Dayton brand subwoofers are a great example of this, just to name one. I'm assuming you're looking to upgrade the stereo speakers as well as adding a subwoofer?

There won't be a huge advantage to upgrading the stock radio until you've done several other upgrades first.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I just want the best sound quality possible, with front speaker upgrades and a 10" Sub _that doesn't take up more than about 1/3rd of the available Cruze Eco trunk space._

I want this song to sound amazing in my driver seat


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> I just want the best sound quality possible, with front and rear speaker upgrades, and a 10" Sub that doesn't take up more than about 1/3rd of the available Cruze Eco trunk space.
> 
> I want this song to sound amazing in my driver seat


Here's my recommendation. 

This sub: TC Sounds Epic 10" DVC Subwoofer 293-656

I could build a ported box for it that would work excellently with the synthetic bass you listen to for $235 plus shipping. The box would be fairly small as this particular sub works very well in smaller enclosures. You're looking at a total box volume of 1.4 cubic feet, and box dimensions of 14" Height x 26.5" width x 10.5" depth. 

This amplifier would work excellently:

Boston Acoustics GT 2200 Reference Series 900W 2 Channel Car Amplifier Amp GT 690283474645 | eBay

This brings you at $600, leaving you $400 for wiring, front speakers, and a small 2-channel amp to power the front speakers.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I have the factory radio and one of my neighbors asked me yesterday if I had a sub in my car. I had all the windows down and my bass was that loud without distortion. This was through my Bluetooth audio interface.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Can't that 900w amp power all of the speakers? 

I'm in the process of buying those recommendations. I will also appreciate your suggestions on the rest of the system and I will buy your custom box as well. 
I need to fix my paypal though (limited access), I've been on hold for almost an hour.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> Can't that 900w amp power all of the speakers?
> 
> I'm in the process of buying those recommendations. I will also appreciate your suggestions on the rest of the system and I will buy your custom box as well.
> I need to fix my paypal though (limited access), I've been on hold for almost an hour.


Hold off on buying that amp for now. Let me see if I can find you a 5-channel that will have enough power for that sub and also power the front speakers. With ported subwoofer boxes, you generally want to over-power them to ensure that you are giving them clean power and not clipping them, which will fry a sub in short order.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Ok, I found you an amp that will power front speakers as well as the subwoofer. It was a bit difficult finding an amp with as much power as you'll need for that sub to power it cleanly, but here it is. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polk-Audio-...0846890?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item53f614d8aa

You can wire the sub down to 1 ohm with that amplifier, giving it 500W RMS.

For front speakers, I would recommend these:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_22330_Image-Dynamics-CTX-6.5cs.html


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Just wanted to make a re-cap post so you know what you need to get the entire system running. 

First, you need the PAC AA-GM44
PAC AA-GM44 Amplifier Integration Interface for Select 2010 and Up GM Vehicles : Amazon.com : Automotive

Then, you need the sub, which I listed earlier as the TC Sounds Epic 10. 
Then, you need an amplifier. I updated my recommendation to the 5-channel Polk amp instead of the 2-channel Boston Acoustics amp. The BA amp has more power, but the Polk amp will have enough and will significantly simplify your install. 

You will need a wiring kit, and it has to be all OFC (oxygen-free copper), no CCA (copper clad aluminum). 
4 Gauge Amplifier Installation Kit

Grab a pair of these as they're much better than the terminals included in the kit:
Knukonceptz product detail for SET SCREW RING TERMINALS - 4 GAUGE PAIR

I recommended the Image Dynamics CTX 6.5" component speakers in my previous post. You'll need to decide how you want to mount them. When you remove the factory speakers, you will need to get adapters to mount the new speakers. You have two options here. You can buy these plastic adapters for $10:

Scosche SAGMHR634B Chevrolet HHR/Impala 6-1/2" Speaker Adapter

Or I can make you a set of MDF adapters for $55, which you can see here:
http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/36-audio-electronics/12140-xr-co-mobile-audio-products.html



That should pretty much do it as far as parts to get your entire system up and running. You're probably asking yourself "but what about the back door speakers?" Well, I didn't include anything for those, and here's why. You will get far better results spending $170 on a set of front speakers than by spending $85 on a set of front speakers and another $85 on a set of rear speakers. That, and your rear speakers play into the floor at peoples' feet, so you won't get much sound quality out of them anyway. You can leave the stock ones in, you can disconnect them (if you rarely carry rear passengers), or you can upgrade them at a later date. My experience is that it's a poor value to upgrade them when you set up your system in initially. 

Not including shipping costs for the sub box, shipping for the wiring from KNU Konceptz, or the cost of the speaker adapters, you're up at $940 with the entire install. Compromising on front speaker quality for the sake of having something playing behind you will not give you good results. Believe me when I say that with a good set of front speakers, you will never miss rear speakers or even know they're missing. 

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

how do i cancel a buy it now bid? It says I have to pay for it.











Can i just delete the entire ebay account i just created today?

So there will be no rear speakers in the system? 
I really have no clue, I've only ever had factory speakers and my last car had a factory Bose System with a small Amp in the trunk.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> how do i cancel a buy it now bid? It says I have to pay for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just request a cancel of the order and the seller will be do it no problem. I've accidentally ordered things before and had that happen. They'll just close and re-list the item. You can contact the seller directly to ask them to cancel the order. Did you tie your paypal account to your ebay account? If not, you can just delete the ebay account and create another one.

No worries, you won't be forced to pay for it. That would be illegal.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I did not link my paypal, But I do like the name that was untaken- CruzingDave.

If they force me to buy it I can just pay for it and then ship it to you since you are the one that liked it, then you can resell it to someone who needs it lol.

So No rear speakers in the system?

I'll wait to buy anything this time, until we figure out exactly what I need and I understand what I will be doing. I have to get ready for work, 4pm-12:30 am nightshift Eastern time.

I really do appreciate your help. I can put XtremeRevolution decal on my rear window to help your business lol.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> I did not link my paypal, But I do like the name that was untaken- CruzingDave.
> 
> If they force me to buy it I can just pay for it and then ship it to you since you are the one that liked it, then you can resell it to someone who needs it lol.
> 
> ...


Dave, 

The seller will agree to cancel the transaction. It was an honest mistake, and it is far better for them to cancel it than to force you to buy it and to have you give them a negative feedback rating. Trust me, those can make or break it for a seller. Worst case, you can just not pay and let the account get suspended and never worry about it, but I'm 99% sure the seller will just cancel the transaction for you. 

That's not to say I wouldn't use the amp, but I had my eyes on the GT-2300; the next model up. I have a big project coming up with two 18" Pro audio subwoofers in my Cruze. Sssshhhh... 

No rear speakers. Trust me, you'll love it, and if by any chance you don't, it will be very easy to add something later as rear fill. I'm betting on you not wanting rear speakers after you hear what the front components can do. 

Good call taking your time. It took me 1 year to put together the system that's currently in my Cruze. No joke. I was stocking up parts long before I even bought the car. Had a lot of dust to wipe off when I finally got started. I've designed so many complete systems on this board that I know pretty much everything you'll need to hit the ground running, and others here will fill in the gaps with their install experience. 

A window decal? Now that would be cool. I may have to make some of those for myself to send out with my sub boxes. I just do this on the side; it's not my full time job or anything. I enjoy it and people get some kickass subwoofer enclosures and systems that they would otherwise pay a whole lot more for.


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

This thread was extremely informative, holy crap

Mind=Blown...


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Here are the numbers (for reference) so far.

Polk 1200w Amp 244.19 ordered
ID CTX 6.5 Fronts 169.99 ordered
10" TC Sounds Sub 188.57 ordered
PAC AA-GM44 36.56 ordered
4 Gauge Kit 57.49 ordered
Screw Ring Terminals 5.00 ordered
XR Enclosure & MDF adapters 290.00+shipping ordered



I might be getting my new Cruze Eco today or tomorrow, depending on how early I get my loan paperwork this morning.
After the down payment, I'll see if I still have enough in my checking account to buy everything this afternoon. I should still have enough from what I can tell.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I ordered everything except the speakers, I read the reviews and a lot of people are complaining about the tweeters. 
I'm willing to pay a little extra for better speakers that will provide excellent sound quality. 
The Amp was reduced from $280 to $244 for a savins of $36.

Whats the best $200 component speakers and tweeters?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I heard these in Terry's car and I can honestly say they didn't sound too hot. It really depends on the installer, their tuning ability, and the location. For example, our tweeters are in our pillars and play completely off-axis with your ears. Tweeters are designed to play on-axis. Some cars have tweeter pods that play on-axis, while others play off-axis, and some even have the tweeters located near the midbass drivers in the doors. That's why you can't just read reviews and expect to get an idea of what the parts you buy are going to sound like. Every car sounds different, and every install sounds different. 

The crossover box on these has a jumper you can see for a -3db change on the tweeters if they sound too hot to compensate for this, and I'd be willing to bet you the people complaining had no idea the adjustment was available. 

I'd grab the ID CTX components. You aren't likely to find a better sounding speaker for $200 or less.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I noticed you liked my post. I'll need a confirmation that you'll still be buying those speakers as I need to know what cutout to route for the speaker adapters. I make the adapters specific to the speakers, not generic for all speakers. Let me know as soon as you can.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I bought them:
Image Dynamics CTX-6.5cs: 1 set @ $169.99

I also noticed that my car has cut outs under rear window from the trunk under side that I could be able to add 6x9's as well.
I have 2 children ages 4 and 5 that love todays popular radio hits music.

Would the front component speakers sound good in the rear seats, or would adding 6x9s in the rear be a better option?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> I bought them:
> Image Dynamics CTX-6.5cs: 1 set @ $169.99
> 
> I also noticed that my car has cut outs under rear window from the trunk under side that I could be able to add 6x9's as well.
> ...


Adding rear 6x9s would be a bad idea. I would instead add a pair of cheap coaxials in the rear doors or just leave the factory ones in there.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I've changed my mind about designing a small enclosure for the 10" sub.
Please design the size to be as big as it needs to be that would give me the best quality sounding results.


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## j.thomson (Feb 15, 2013)

hey just jumping in here because i have a similar question, just wondering my buddy gave me two 8 inch subs in a box with an amp on the back that he pulled out of his car before an upgrade they sounded great in that but i was just wondering could i hook this up with the factory radio thats installed in my cruze. if so how hard is it? Thanks

Also if i have 2 jbl 6x9's handy would it hurt putting them in slash hard?


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## tecollins1 (Nov 6, 2011)

j.thomson said:


> hey just jumping in here because i have a similar question, just wondering my buddy gave me two 8 inch subs in a box with an amp on the back that he pulled out of his car before an upgrade they sounded great in that but i was just wondering could i hook this up with the factory radio thats installed in my cruze. if so how hard is it? Thanks
> 
> Also if i have 2 jbl 6x9's handy would it hurt putting them in slash hard?


Naw it's actually quite easy as long as you have the right parts. 
Post up a new thread so we dont thread jack this one, and ill let X know to expect it.
This will also help us, help you better.
Make sure to include what make and model subs you have and the amplifier.
Pics would be a big help also.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

The PA D1000.1 *polk*audio Amp, the TC Epic 10", and the 4 gauge wiring kit came in a couple days ago.

I'm trying to figure out how I am going to wire this. The instructions that came with the subwoofer doesn't explain anything.

I'm also confused about 1 Ohm /2 Ohm /4 Ohms, reading the Wikipedia article gave me a headache. I just need to know which setting is better for my setup.

My guess is that since the Subwoofer can take up to 2000w peak (500w continous long term) and the amp can produce up to [email protected] Ohm,
"*Dual Voice Coil over -Parallel* : 2Ω||2Ω=1Ω" would be the ideal setup.

Especially since you said that it is better to overpower this Sub with a ported box earlier in this thread. Am i way off the mark?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> The PA D1000.1 *polk*audio Amp, the TC Epic 10", and the 4 gauge wiring kit came in a couple days ago.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how I am going to wire this. The instructions that came with the subwoofer doesn't explain anything.
> 
> ...


Dave, 

You're getting the concepts. You can wire the sub to either 4 ohms (and give it 500W) or wire it to 1 ohm (and give it 1000W). 

Here are some wiring diagrams that will help you visualize this:


















The differences aside from the power output are in efficiency. That amplifier will be far more efficient at 4 ohms than it will be at 1 ohm, and that applies to all amplifiers. You can expect ~50% efficiency at 1 ohm and ~75-80% efficiency at 4 ohm. A 50% efficiency means that if you provide 500W, you are drawing 1000W from your electrical. See how it runs at 1 ohm and if you get any light dimming at night on hard bass beats, and if you do, switch it to 4 ohm. 500W is still enough power for the sub, but more is always better to prevent clipping.

I will send you some extra wire so you can switch between the two wiring configurations.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Actually now that I looked more carefully at the owner's manuals for both the Amp and Sub, it looks like a match made in heaven;

TC Epic 10" Sub Long term power -500w
Amp RMS continuous power @ 4Ω - 500w


I think I'll just stick to 500w @ 4Ω , especially since the 1Ω setup picture comes with a Warning and like you said, is less efficient. ☺


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> Actually now that I looked more carefully at the owner's manuals for both the Amp and Sub, it looks like a match made in heaven;
> 
> TC Epic 10" Sub Long term power -500w
> Amp RMS continuous power @ 4Ω - 500w
> ...


Yeah, it will work well. You have a good amplifier that is CEA-2006 certified. The CEA certification is a standard by which amplifiers are rated to ensure that when they say you will get 500W continuous, you will actually deliver that power so long as you can sustain 14.4V from your car's electrical system. Be leery of other amplifiers that claim the same rating without a CEA certification. There are some small companies who don't certify due to the cost that even exceed their ratings, but they are expensive.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

I believe in audio specifications just as much as I believe in Santa coming down my real chimney bringing me toys. Only true rating is the RMS output terminated in fixed resistors. Then using a distortion meter to see how much power you actually can get before reaching distortion. No such thing as peak to peak power, what dirty rotten liar came up with this specification. Or 6.5 HP from a dinky little vacuum cleaner.

Most speakers will produce over 100 db sound output at one meter, at 1KHz with only one watt input, far above the OSHA requirements for of 85 db where above that, ear protection is required. Generally 20 watts RMS per channel is more than sufficient unless you want to go deaf.

Key advantage of external amplifiers is getting that heat out of that tiny little box in a stock radio, radio has to dissipate about the same amount of power delivered to the speakers. In terms of speakers, its not the power they can output without distortion, its the power that would fry up the voice coil. Its rare to find any automotive speaker that can even handle 15 watts RMS before going into severe distortion. Most go into distortion at about 6-9 watts, that is fine if you love distortion. 

And what in the **** is a subwoofer if any woofer worth it's salt will reproduce down to 20 Hertz. Nothing down there anyway. Here audiophiles brag about a flat response from 20 to 20,000 Hertz, could show them my best scope that is flat from 0 to 1 GHz.

Couldn't live with the sound system in my 04 Cavalier using 12 ohm speakers, so did add 20 W RMS per channel external amps capable of driving a more common 3.2 ohm speaker. One major problem I encountered was how to switch those external amplifiers off. So I pulled the radio, to find a point with a scope lead that gave a switched output. Added a buffer to that to drive the relay in the external amplifiers. Changing these radios is no longer a plug in job, part of the alarm system now plus using that radio to save on beeps, also a part of the data link. But not the problem anyway, all this stuff is jammed in ASIC's now and can well reproduce the full audio spectrum. The power amplifiers are the problem. These are also IC's and use the cheapest ones they can find. Only talking pennies here.

I suppose with the Cruze, can just take the power off those cigar lighter socket ports, fused at 25 amps, and when you pull the ignition switch, will turn off the external amps, but will have to hot wire that relay.

Yet another consideration with automotive is how much of that limited space do you want to sacrifice for a sound system? You may want to carry something in your car.

One old trick I used in older discrete type radios was to take the right channel, invert it and apply that to the left channel and the same with the left channel, By adding a dual ganged pot, and actually expand the virtual distance between the speakers for a more spacious sound. Can't do these with the new radios, all of those audio circuits are buried in an IC. As opposed to the old mechanical tuning radios, these new radios with phase locked digital tuning are extremely cheap to manufacture, but would never know that by the price they are asking.

What I hate about after market radios, can't even see that LCD screen in the daytime, have to give the Cruze credit for that. Plus still using an analog type volume and tuning knobs. Not a pot at all, but fires pulses to the microcontroller.

Can really get some decent sounds from my smart phone with head phones, but illegal to use headphones while driving. But okay to install a so-called 2,000 watt system in a car. But can't argue with the law.

Then your sound is what you get accustomed to, still meet audiophiles that love LP's and that are loaded distortion with a 12AX7 vacuum tube. Each to his own on this issue. I did decide to become accustomed to my Cruze sound system in that same manner, and just decided to leave it.

Did go a little overboard with my motorhome, but when camping are suppose to rough it. Watching TV on a 15" screen and listening to music on 6 by 9" speakers is my idea of roughing it. But sure can't do without the AC, LOL.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

View attachment 12173


This is how I dealt with those 4" speakers that came with my Supra, inverted the spare tire so I could drop in a 10" Blaupunkt overdrive speaker under that lid. Made a special bracket to hold down the spare tire. Just powering it with a 20 Watt True RMS amplifier, designed an inverter for it to combine the signals from the left and right speakers. Has a real power switch on the radio, just ran a wire back to power that amplifier. Hardly ever use full volume, still trying to protect my ears, but this bass with the four existing four speakers produces very well balanced sound.

Cruze could use more bass, could also try inverting the spare tire, if you have one, in the Cruze. But may have to drop one of the rear seats so you can hear it. Supra just has a window shade for a cover doesn't make that much difference if its opened or close. Did add extra padding under that lid to act as an infinite baffle type of enclosure. Guys that added a box back there can no longer use that space to carry a bag of groceries, I can. Made a huge difference when listening to Bach organ music.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NickD said:


> I believe in audio specifications just as much as I believe in Santa coming down my real chimney bringing me toys. Only true rating is the RMS output terminated in fixed resistors. Then using a distortion meter to see how much power you actually can get before reaching distortion. No such thing as peak to peak power, what dirty rotten liar came up with this specification. Or 6.5 HP from a dinky little vacuum cleaner.
> 
> Most speakers will produce over 100 db sound output at one meter, at 1KHz with only one watt input, far above the OSHA requirements for of 85 db where above that, ear protection is required. Generally 20 watts RMS per channel is more than sufficient unless you want to go deaf.
> 
> ...


The skepticism you expressed regarding power ratings is why the CEA certification came about. CEA-certified amplifiers are guaranteed to produce their rated power at 14.4V under the same tested conditions. It's a pretty decent way to ensure that you're getting the power you're paying for. That's not to say all amplifiers that aren't rated do not produce their claimed power, but those who are buying underrated amps generally know what they're dealing with. 

20W RMS per channel is indeed sufficient, if your power band is comprised entirely of content above 150hz. The farther down you go in frequency, the more air you have to move to produce the same level of output, which in turn requires more power. I can assure you that you will not power any decent subwoofer in car audio with 20W of power. 

Any woofer will produce a 20hz tone. However, not very many will produce that 20hz tone at a linear volume output. That's where the subwoofer comes in. Sure, 5.25" door speakers can produce 20hz, but how loud? If you were to play test tones at a given level from 20hz all the way up to 20khz, I can assure you that the output would be far lower between 20hz and 90hz than it will be from 90hz on up to 20khz. Again, bass is a function of how much air you can move and how much pressure you can create, and the lower you go in frequency with regard to bass, the less sensitive your ears are to those frequencies, and the more air you will have to move. For additional discussion on this topic, I'd refer you to Hoffman's Iron Law:

Sensitivity and Hoffman’s Iron Law, or “why you can’t have your cake and eat it too”
GlassWolf's Pages

The advantage behind my subwoofer box design and expertise on the matter is that I can look at a subwoofer and get a reasonable grasp of what it will sound like, and given a set of goals, I can also determine what box to use and how big to make it. I can make recommendations that fall within the design goals in question. For example, the subwoofer I just designed for EcoDave will hit down to 30hz linear in 1.4 cubic feet. That's at minimum impressive. Kick drum dynamics will produce output between about 30hz and 100hz, and much of today's modern synthetic bass does produce content as low as 30-35hz. The lowest note on a bass guitar is somewhere around 39-41hz. As far as musical instruments though, a pipe organ plays down to around 15hz. I don't design around those ranges, and I'd question the sanity of anyone who insisted on "listening" to pipe organ music in that range at high volumes. 

I have yet to meet an audiophile who proclaimed the superiority of LPs. I would refer to those types of people more as purist nostalgic eccentrics. I would compare it akin to insisting that the 1911 is the finest handgun one can buy even by today's standards. I own one, but not because it's the finest I can get.

I have a project in progress that will utilize two 18" subwoofers in my Cruze while maintaining 90% of my trunk space.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Easy enough to check using fixed resistors and knowledge of the input voltage. typically 1 VRMS, but can't seem to find that specification on that Polk mentioned.

Typical bridged output amplifier working from 13.5 volts can only have a peak output voltage of 12.5V that translates to a 8.8 V RMS signal. With a conventional 4 ohm load, output power is 19.36 watts, but can be up to 77 watts with only a 1 ohm load. But this is based on a class B design that is subject to cross over distortion. AB is far more better to eliminate this cross over distortion. But at 50% power output the amplifier dissipates just as much power as what the speakers do.

Class D amplifiers use a form of pulse width modulation where the power MOSFET transistors are switch hard on and off at varying widths to emulate a sine wave. This gets complicated, but can read about it here.

http://www.irf.com/product-info/audio/classdtutorial2.pdf

Would be interesting if the cross over distortion was specified, couldn't find that with this Polk. The only way to get this kind of power is to up the line voltage using some type of an up converter, granted, switchmode technology does help with the overall efficency compared to the older 60 Hertz types. But noise does become a problem. Thus a signal to noise ratio specification should be also added to that list.

To get 1,200 watts output into a 1 ohm load, the upped voltage would have to be at least 70 volts, and assuming 100% efficiency, the input current drawn from the vehicles battery would be in the order of 170 amps. Or put in other terms, a tad more than the output of the Cruze alternator is capable of producing. Probably why guys with these systems brag they will kill the engine if they turn up the volume. See that Polk recommends 4 AWG wire, a bit on the light side. Also a coupling capacitor that limits this current, so are you really getting 1,200 watts?

Just asking.

If you had access to a spectrum analyzer, will find very little frequencies below 150 Hertz using a wide variety of common music sources. Unless you like Bach music played on a 32' long pipe organ. But even those produce pulses in that 150 Hertz range.

Common vehicular alternators run at only about 50% efficiency that with other losses can put out over a 5 HP load on an engine, far more than that 1.4L is capable of at idle. Even at far lesser loads, idle speed control had to be added. More complications, and more things to go wrong.


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## samuelbjornestad (Feb 9, 2012)

I have just recently upgraded my audio. I started with 2 sundown audio E10D4 subs in a box tuned to 35.19hz running on a hifonics brutus 1200.1D amp. Then I replaced the door speakers and tweeters with JBL GTO608C's running off of a hifonics ZRX600.4. Ran 1/0 from the battery to a distro block in the trunk. Also did the big 3 upgrade under the hood with 1/0. I haven't had any problems and the it sounds great! My voltage runs between 13.8 and 14.7 depending on outside, air temps, humidity etc... Also the subs are wired down to 1 ohm and components are 2 ohm


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NickD said:


> Easy enough to check using fixed resistors and knowledge of the input voltage. typically 1 VRMS, but can't seem to find that specification on that Polk mentioned.
> 
> Typical bridged output amplifier working from 13.5 volts can only have a peak output voltage of 12.5V that translates to a 8.8 V RMS signal. With a conventional 4 ohm load, output power is 19.36 watts, but can be up to 77 watts with only a 1 ohm load. But this is based on a class B design that is subject to cross over distortion. AB is far more better to eliminate this cross over distortion. But at 50% power output the amplifier dissipates just as much power as what the speakers do.
> 
> ...


The way that high powered car audio systems get 1200W+ of power is by draining the battery during peaks. Most subwoofers can't actually dissipate a kilowatt of heat continuously for any extended period of time without cooking the voice coil as they will bottom out long before that. The reason we need such high power outputs is for dynamic peaks, which can often come in at 4000W. Those dynamic peaks is what causes our lights to dim. For a short period of time, the alternator is completely maxed out, the wiring is at nearly all its capacity, and the voltage drops as the power is pulled from the battery.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

A one farad capacitor could only prevent lamp dimming for about 10 msec with a 170 amp pulse. A far better solution would be to add a second isolated battery for the amplifier. Even a 240 amp alternator would be nice with isolated batteries, seem to have a Leece Neville laying around.

In a vehicle like my motorhome have a 100 AH battery for the engine, and two more like it for the cabin, both diode isolated from each other. Alternator has an external sense, have that connected to just the engine battery. Diode drops are very close, so no harm to the cabin batteries. With isolation, can drain down the cabin batteries while the engine battery remains full. Also have a dual output 35 amp regulated power supply set at 13.5 volts each connected to the two battery stacks. That always remains plugged in so all three batteries remain fully charged, acts like a maintainer. It's likewise diode isolated from the alternator so keeps all three batteries charged.

Some use switches for this same function, but that requires to remember. Also have generator that fires the power supply, does start with much lower current than the engine requires. A system like this could easily handle a 1,200 watt amplifier system and is done in higher end installations. Yeah, there are guys putting $30,000-40,000 audio systems in their cars.

Most I installed was a 700 buck system, but that can be a giveaway when you get rid of the vehicle, so did that installion to be 100% reversible. Probably a reason why I have a bunch of old stuff laying around. Radios, speakers, amplifiers. Think I got rid of all those 8-track players, should do the same with cassette players. 

If I have any recommendations, don't do anything to your vehicle to void the warranty, adding a system not done correctly can depreciate your vehicle or at best, would be a giveaway when you trade it off. Report this extra expense for your comprehension or collision insurance, or otherwise if some idiot hits you or steals it, it won't be covered.

Another factor with automotive is dynamic range, for previous recording with a 55-70DB ambient noise level, would use audio compression. Dynamic range translates to either you can't hear it or its blowing your ears off. Really love MP3's, can tell the difference in my home system, but not that noticeable in automotive. But sure like the convenience of it. Anyone want to buy a six CD changer that takes up half of your trunk. Ha, another waste of money, really don't have it anymore, pitched it.

Should learn to be quiet on my feelings toward these super powered audio systems, heck, it it turns you on, go for it. Only live once.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Just a tidbit with power, doubling the power only increases the sound level by 3 DB's. So going from a 500 watt amplifier to a 1,000 watt only gives a barely detectable increase in sound level. Bu sure gives you a lot of power requirement problems.

Going from a 250 watt to a 1000 watt does give a detectable 6 DB increase in sound level, but most vehicle electrical systems can handle a 250 watt amp. 

Sound level is the bottom line and the price of it along with the installation problems increase exponentially with more power.

If you goal is becoming hard of hearing, can practically guarantee a 250 watt amplifier will do that job practically as well as a 1,000 watt amp.


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## ScarletFever (May 9, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Is there any reason you're limiting yourself to expensive name-brand products at a local retail store? If I understand this correctly, you're on a budget. There are far more and far better options out there.
> 
> That said, I'll need to know the following if you want help:
> 
> ...


I will just throw this at you if you have a minute: I've got a '12 with stock sound system  I mainly listen to sxm Electronic area and Octane. My '01 Monte Carlo had 6x9's in the back with an amp between them. Which was basic but perfect for me. What do I need to do so the sound doesn't start to degrade past volume level 20?
Thanks for your time!
Must be the pointy ears.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ScarletFever said:


> I will just throw this at you if you have a minute: I've got a '12 with stock sound system  I mainly listen to sxm Electronic area and Octane. My '01 Monte Carlo had 6x9's in the back with an amp between them. Which was basic but perfect for me. What do I need to do so the sound doesn't start to degrade past volume level 20?
> Thanks for your time!
> Must be the pointy ears.


Disconnect the rear door speakers, gut the rear 6x9s, replace front speakers and amplify them, add a subwoofer that is consistent with how loud you want to go and the kind of music you listen to. For Electronic and Octane, you'd actually enjoy the same sub I recommended to EcoDave, but in a sealed box instead of a ported one. 

How far you want to go really depends on your budget, but you'll be gutting pretty much the entire system except for the factory deck if you want better sound quality at higher volumes.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I recommend applying your money to a subwoofer set up, then processor and then speakers. Your budget is possible but you get what you pay for. Typically home drivers are @ 8 ohms your average car audio driver is 4. I can build you a set up for that price but I would recommend doubling your budget and getting the results you are looking for. The best advice I can give you is to never cheap out on anything. Your system is only as good as its weakest link. Another important question that I dont believe was asked of you is what source are you using to listen to most of your music ie phone ,bt, cd or xm etc. Cd will give you the best quality based on what comes stock with the cuze.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

xtreme I was reading a post you made about installing a set of morels tweets in the cruze . Have you done this? If so I would like to see pics, I have a set of match pair et 338 in my 1/4 tls and love them.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I recommend applying your money to a subwoofer set up, then processor and then speakers. Your budget is possible but you get what you pay for. Typically home drivers are @ 8 ohms your average car audio driver is 4. I can build you a set up for that price but I would recommend doubling your budget and getting the results you are looking for. The best advice I can give you is to never cheap out on anything. Your system is only as good as its weakest link. Another important question that I dont believe was asked of you is what source are you using to listen to most of your music ie phone ,bt, cd or xm etc. Cd will give you the best quality based on what comes stock with the cuze.


It is not at all true that most home theater drivers at 8 ohm. In fact, most home theater drivers you can buy can be found in either 4 ohm or 8 ohm configurations, for those of us who want to design MTM speakers for use in old amplifiers that are not 4 ohm stable. In the last 10 years, almost all home theater receivers have been made 4 ohm capable, and the popularity of MTM or WMTMW configurations has resulted in a wide availability of 4 ohm drivers. It is harder to find good speakers that are only available in an 8-ohm impedance than it is to find drivers that are available in both a 4 ohm and an 8 ohm impedance. 



hificruzer226 said:


> xtreme I was reading a post you made about installing a set of morels tweets in the cruze . Have you done this? If so I would like to see pics, I have a set of match pair et 338 in my 1/4 tls and love them.


I replied to your post asking for pictures 2 hours ago. 

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/57-how-library/6056-car-audio-sq-how-thread-43.html#post183511


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> It is not at all true that most home theater drivers at 8 ohm.
> 
> parts express has 102 home audio midrange-midbass-full-range-speakers @8 ohms compared to 60 @4 ohms speakers just for reference that most home audio drivers are 8 ohm ..didnt say all.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I just bought my cruze last night. So sorry for the low post numbers but and nooby questions, but has anyone figured out the resonant frequency of a cruze?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> XtremeRevolution said:
> 
> 
> > It is not at all true that most home theater drivers at 8 ohm.
> ...


My post was intended was to point out in an indirect way that your statement served no real purpose. If we really have to go through and look at each one of those drivers and see which might be remotely suitable for car audio use, we can, but I can assure you that there won't be much benefit to it as the ones that we would actually consider using will almost always be available in a 4 ohm variant. What really then is the point of your statement? 

Furthermore, power is so cheap these days and you need so little of it on a front stage, that you can just as easily use an 8 ohm driver as you can a 4 ohm driver. You lose a total of 3db of SPL, gain some amplifier efficiency, and will still be far from the danger of clipping that driver with even a 60W x 2 (@ 4 ohm) amplifier.

Keep in mind that the 8 ohm driver count on the parts-express website includes the drivers that have 4 ohm variants.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

the post was not to state an argument but more so a suggestion. I am considering the vifa ne myself for my doors. Even though I have a ton 6.5 comp in my used collection.
[h=1][/h]


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> the post was not to state an argument but more so a suggestion. I am considering the vifa ne myself for my doors. Even though I have a ton 6.5 comp in my used collection.


I apologize if my tone was a bit too forward or harsh. It wasn't my intention. I was a bit rushed as I was typing it. 

The Vifa NE is a very nice driver, but in my honest opinion a tad overpriced and offers too little value for the price over the Silver Flute 6.5". That holds especially true given a similar cone composition and Qts. 

If you do use it, I'd love to hear your impressions.


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## ScarletFever (May 9, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Disconnect the rear door speakers, gut the rear 6x9s, replace front speakers and amplify them, add a subwoofer that is consistent with how loud you want to go and the kind of music you listen to. For Electronic and Octane, you'd actually enjoy the same sub I recommended to EcoDave, but in a sealed box instead of a ported one.
> 
> How far you want to go really depends on your budget, but you'll be gutting pretty much the entire system except for the factory deck if you want better sound quality at higher volumes.


[I don't have 6x9's, those were what I had in the monte] In my home I have had for about 6 years now a fully digital panasonic 6.1 receiver connected to KLH sub(50w),fronts(140w),center(100w),rear(100w) and polk satellite's(100w) for a 12x12' living room. I like quality sound on a budget, no need to be competitive. I didn't know sxm had worse sound quality, I just figured that was the stocker. I will be using iPod in future. I just find it annoying after volume 20 the sound quality really drops off for when I want to turn it up to 28or30 for a good song every now and again.
Is the sub for Ecodave on this thread? What brand model to put in the fronts? Maybe I'll just replace all the ones in the doors with higher than average speaks and be happy until I need to hook up an amp/sub in trunk.
Great Help, Spocks!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ScarletFever said:


> [I don't have 6x9's, those were what I had in the monte] In my home I have had for about 6 years now a fully digital panasonic 6.1 receiver connected to KLH sub(50w),fronts(140w),center(100w),rear(100w) and polk satellite's(100w) for a 12x12' living room. I like quality sound on a budget, no need to be competitive. I didn't know sxm had worse sound quality, I just figured that was the stocker. I will be using iPod in future. I just find it annoying after volume 20 the sound quality really drops off for when I want to turn it up to 28or30 for a good song every now and again. Is the sub for Ecodave on this thread? What brand model to put in the fronts? Maybe I'll just replace all the ones in the doors with higher than average speaks and be happy until I need to hook up an amp/sub in trunk. Great Help, Spocks!


You sure you're providing that much power to your home speakers? Home theater receivers are so deceptively overrated. 

XM does have worse sound quality than using your aux jack or a CD. Your sound quality drops for two reasons: 

1. Your speakers are crap 

2. Your head unit isn't powerful enough Replacing the speakers only solves half of the problem. You still need to amplify them. 

Don't waste your time with really cheap parts or you'll end up ripping them out anyway and doing it the right way. 

The sub is a TC Sounds Epic 10 in 1.4 cubic feet in a custom ported box I'm building for him. Here's the driver: TC Sounds Epic 10" DVC Subwoofer 293-656 

The box is $235 plus shipping, but it will sound incredible. 

A good set of front components will run you $150-$175.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I am ok with the price considering its a wood fiber cone and a more expensive neo magnet. I like wood fiber cones the are more dynamic with the aggressive nature of a kevlar cone. I wish you were closer so I can audition your set up. Have you scored your set up yet?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

compared with the aggressive nature*


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I am ok with the price considering its a wood fiber cone and a more expensive neo magnet. I like wood fiber cones the are more dynamic with the aggressive nature of a kevlar cone. I wish you were closer so I can audition your set up. Have you scored your set up yet?


I am normally a huge fan of neo motors, but I don't like paying more for the same performance just because one driver has a neo motor and the other has a ferrite motor. When the prices went up, I stopped seeing them as respectable values. For the price of the Vifa Neo, you can get some very nice drivers made by Seas or Usher. Maybe even a Scanspeak for a few bucks more. I believe the Silver Flute is a wool/paper cone.

I haven't scored my system and haven't had a desire to. I'm actually dropping my current tweeters to finally put in a set that I was given for review as soon as I have the time to melt the hot glue that's holding the current ones in and glue these in their place:

Creative Sound - Product Details

To place emphasis on what this tweeter is capable of, you're looking at an XBL^2 motor with shorting rings and a 1.85mm xmax. I think that last bit is important enough to bear repeating: a 1.85mm xmax. Most tweeters sit at 0.25-0.50mm. Third order harmonic distortion is at -70db at 2khz, which makes this a world class tweeter capable of holding its own against tweeters 3x its price. This will cross at 1.5khz and beg for power. I dare you to find anything else like it. Oh, and it also has a removable faceplate. 

I also sold my IDQ15 V2 and MRP-M1000 and am currently working on a trunk baffle/IB install with two 18" Peavey "Black Widow" Low riders on a Boston Acoustics GT-2300. Maybe once it's all done and tuned, I might take it to some competitions.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Arc audio uses IB in most of their show cars. Im gonna do a 1/2 wave tl mmats 2.5 10" in the cruze


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Arc audio uses IB in most of their show cars. Im gonna do a 1/2 wave tl mmats 2.5 10" in the cruze


One of the greatest advantages of an IB setup is that you are producing sound directly into the cabin instead of using the trunk as a boundary loaded medium. The way Matt Borgardt explained it to me is that when you have a sub in the trunk, what you actually hear is the sub moving the mass of the air in the trunk, which then in turns moves the mass of the air in the cabin. The end result is a thicker bottom end and a slight delay. IB installs also allow you to use far more cone area. I don't even want to think about how big of a box I'd need for two 18" Peavey Low Riders.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Where can I begin? I'm thinking I can start with mounting the Amp first, Then try to install the PAC AA-GM44, and then replace the tweeters.
Here's everything I have on hand.


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## Shoelessjake (Sep 19, 2012)

Let me know how those creative tweets sound, I was looking at them hard! I love my Vifas but I may upgrade depending on your review! 


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Shoelessjake said:


> Let me know how those creative tweets sound, I was looking at them hard! I love my Vifas but I may upgrade depending on your review!
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


Given the waveguide is aluminum, they may be considerably more difficult to mount. I will let you know though.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I got your box design finalized yesterday. Took me almost 2 hours, but I think you'll be blown away by it. 

I had originally planned for a 3" aero port, but I changed that to a 4" aero port, which will be side firing. Final box dimensions will come out to 29" wide x 12" tall x 13.25" deep. Sub will face toward the back of the car, port will face toward the side. I increased the internal volume from 1.4 cubic feet to 1.9 cubic feet since you had said I could make it bigger. This will fit nicely against the back seats. 

I don't know if you've heard what a properly low tuned box sounds like, but this will be pretty incredible. The tuning peak is at around 30hz, so the lower your dubstep beats go, the harder they will hit. It will be quite a lot of fun hearing this sub.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I got your box design finalized yesterday. Took me almost 2 hours, but I think you'll be blown away by it.
> 
> I had originally planned for a 3" aero port, but I changed that to a 4" aero port, which will be side firing. Final box dimensions will come out to 29" wide x 12" tall x 13.25" deep. Sub will face toward the back of the car, port will face toward the side. I increased the internal volume from 1.4 cubic feet to 1.9 cubic feet since you had said I could make it bigger. This will fit nicely against the back seats.
> 
> I don't know if you've heard what a properly low tuned box sounds like, but this will be pretty incredible. The tuning peak is at around 30hz, so the lower your dubstep beats go, the harder they will hit. It will be quite a lot of fun hearing this sub.


Wow, Sweet stuff man. Yes I did say you could go as big as it needed to be in order to get best quality bass. I changed my mind because I began thinking of what if I regretted not having the best sounding enclosure possible later on. I read a thread around here, probably your "MPG" thread about how our trunks are not our closet and we shouldn't use it as such. It would serve better to have great sounding music to accompany me on long trips like the one coming up in May 

I hooked up the TC Epic 10" Sub to my home theater reciever (nothing fancy, just a Samsung system) and it blew me away even without being in a box. It really does play low frequency bass amazingly well! Can't wait to hear it in your design.

Many Thanks!


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

So I drove out to Advanced Auto Parts and Autozone, both of those places did not have the dash trim removal tools. 
The Pep Boys in Salem New Hampshire did have One 6-piece kit left for $20.
I just jumped right into it to see if I could remove a dash trim for the very 1st time in my life, and to figure out how the PAC AA-GM44 would fit.











My PAC AA-GM44 came with the spliced wiring piece attached. I had to disconnect that and then connect the T harness that is plug and play into the factory wiring. 
I am glad that was easy. I had read about how hard it was to put the radio back in so I had already inspected the 2 places where the adapter and extra wiring could fit.
It looked to me like it would be easier to route the RCA wires later on, down through driver side compartments (unless someone can tell me how they did it through the glove box side).













Was I supposed to disconnect the battery?
Because everything still worked fine, even like in the picture above, I turned on the car and listened to the radio (used steering wheel controls) and then drove the car home just like that.

So is it better to run the RCA wiring to the left or to the right? I'm thinking it's better to the right because the Power wire to the amp will be running back through the driver side.
I'll give it another shot on Sunday.

(and what are the appropriate settings on the Adapter input and output; wired/rca? )


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

It has been a while since I installed my AA-GM44, but I would start with the PAC at 3/4 gains. You have the switches correct. 

Run the RCAs on the passenger side. You're right; the power cable will be easier to run on the driver side.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

What switches? On the PAC?
It has 2 switches on it and 4 gain dials. Right now it is set as follows:

All gains max (clockwise0
Output: RCA 
Input: Wired
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2148/20130406182957883.jpg
I'll turn the gains down a bit then. Does the input and output settings need to be changed?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> What switches? On the PAC?
> It has 2 switches on it and 4 gain dials. Right now it is set as follows:
> 
> All gains max (clockwise0
> ...


Switches look good. Nothing else needs to be changed.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I have a few Questions.


The PAC AA-GM44 is in on the passenger side sitting on top of the glove box, everything is put back together. There was a thin black wire coming out of the PAC from between the RCA connectors on the output side, was I suppose to do anything with this?
All I have connected on the output side of the PAC is the four KnuKonceptz RCA connectors. Are *all four* of these RCA connectors going to connect to the polk amp for the subwoofer?







Also, just to make sure, are the thicker screw ring terminals for the Battery Power wire or for the amp's short Black ground wire?
How is the extra speaker amp going to connect in this setup?


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I looked at the Polk Amp, It only has two inputs, and two Outputs.
So I am thinking that if the small speaker amp has 4 inputs, I can connect the RCA cable I have here to the small amp, and then buy an extra RCA cable and go small amp output to polk amp input.
Am I Right? But then what would I do with the stock wiring that's already in place to the stock speakers? 
So many questions, I am very sorry I am seriously confused... lol


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> I looked at the Polk Amp, It only has two inputs, and two Outputs.
> So I am thinking that if the small speaker amp has 4 inputs, I can connect the RCA cable I have here to the small amp, and then buy an extra RCA cable and go small amp output to polk amp input.
> Am I Right? But then what would I do with the stock wiring that's already in place to the stock speakers?
> So many questions, I am very sorry I am seriously confused... lol


There more ways to do it, but here's how I did it. 

The PAC AA-GM44 has 4 RCA outputs, two front, two rear, left and right channels individually. I wired the front channels to the amplifier that powers my front speakers, and wired the rear channels to the subwoofer. That way, I could use the fader adjustment to control my subwoofer level in-cab. 

The Massive Audio NX2 does indeed have a pair of inputs and a pair of outputs for the RCAs, so you can use just the front channels on the AA-GM44 to send a signal to the NX2, then use its outputs to send a signal to the Polk mono amp. 

There are two options for you regarding the front components.


Run new wires. I would recommend 18 gauge. 16 gauge will be more difficult to run and will provide no benefit at all. You will find some cracks or crevices through which to run the speaker wire. I ran mine underneath the harness block. You'll need to pull back the rubber boot to expose the wire. This ended up working well for me. I will note, the driver's side is a bit tricky.








Determine what color wires go to the tweeters, and door speakers, and use the existing wires to hook up your equipment. You will be able to find those wires by color, and will be able splice into or cut the wires in the harness coming into the car.

I would recommend option 1. Once you run new wires, you just leave the existing wire alone. I ziptied the wire inside the door to the new wire so it wouldn't bang around in there. This also makes it so that you can revert back to stock easily.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

look at what I get to play with pls the nox4b and a 360.3


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I can already feel that your all jealous


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I can already feel that your all jealous


Will it be nice? Sure, but I've discovered amplifiers are not the weakest link when it comes to car audio. An even bigger difference is noticed with the quality of speakers, and an even bigger difference is in their configuration, placement, and crossovers. 

Even bigger than all that, however, is the install and how well the car is treated, and even bigger than all of that, is...

The tuning. You can spend $20k on car audio "SQ" equipment, but if you don't know how to tune it correctly, my $1000 system will still beat it, every time. 

I'll be jealous when you show me the install and the tuning including specific crossover points and measurements for each driver used, as well as slopes and graphic EQ settings taken by precision microphone measurement, not "winged" by ear. When it's all installed and tuned well, I'll be impressed, but till then, it's just a bunch of expensive parts to me, and the biggest rule in expensive parts is that of diminishing returns. In other words, just because it costs 10x more doesn't mean it will sound 10x better. 

Let me see the install, and the tuning, and then I'll be jealous.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

15 years of experience, audio control sa-3052, avic z150, porsche boxster disagree with you.... ill post my rta analysis when Im done


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

extreme revolution never gives any love. This is top notch equipment its ok to salivate


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> 15 years of experience, audio control sa-3052, avic z150, porsche boxster disagree with you.... ill post my rta analysis when Im done





hificruzer226 said:


> extreme revolution never gives any love. This is top notch equipment its ok to salivate


I'm just not impressed by expensive equipment, that's all. To me, all expensive equipment means is that someone has more money than I do. Maybe it's the knowledge that I can (and have) achieved far better sound quality in home theater than anyone can hope to achieve in car audio. It just doesn't do anything for me anymore, so don't take it personally. My lack of enthusiasm is reinforced by the apathy I have toward boutique equipment. I see it way too much in the home theater arena. I've seen $200k speakers on $100k amplifiers in magazines, and I've seen $6000 boutique speakers for sale that use $30 drivers. I can beat them to the curb with $600 in parts, so given my experience there, high cost doesn't translate into high performance. It's not that I never give anyone any love, lol. 

An RTA analysis will be what gets me excited. Show me the frequency response from the driver's listening position, and let me see Revelator-like 3rd order harmonic distortion levels. You'll get 4 thumbs up then, from my hands and my feet. 

Don't take this the wrong way, but years of experiences only go so far. Just because you did something for 15 years, doesn't mean you did it _well_. That's not an insult or a jab, just an observation. 

I might come off as rude or uninterested, but believe me when I say I can't wait to see what you do with this stuff, and that nobody on this board will anticipate the results more than I will, possibly because nobody on this board may be able to appreciate the numbers as much.

BTW, you signed up to go to the Lordstown meet, but you haven't yet responded to my roll call to confirm your RSVP. Are you still planning on going?


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The PAC AA-GM44 has 4 RCA outputs, two front, two rear, left and right channels individually. I wired the front channels to the amplifier that powers my front speakers, and wired the rear channels to the subwoofer. That way, I could use the fader adjustment to control my subwoofer level in-cab.
> 
> The Massive Audio NX2 does indeed have a pair of inputs and a pair of outputs for the RCAs, so you can use just the front channels on the AA-GM44 to send a signal to the NX2, then use its outputs to send a signal to the Polk mono amp.
> 
> ...


Ok I see.
It seems like I will have to sell the current 4 channel RCA cable that I have and buy 2 new ones, one for the MA-NX2, and one for the Polk.









Which ones should I get for each amp?
RCA Cables

The KnuKonceptz installation kit came with 12 guage speaker wire, so this is no good as well?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

you are killing me Yes what you say is obvious and correct. However its not my equipment and not my car and not my money, just my customer. Given the chance you would be jealous if you got to install this and not keep it. I myself am jealous. I just wanted to share my fun at work.

As for as home audio I agree with you to a certain point. Any serious audiophile the can follow formulas can spend way less and get way better sq for the price . however you may match or beat something that is 10 times as much mula in imaging and staging but the dynamics cant be match when you get to companies like von schweikert etc given an open environment. 

This coming from someone who builds and design enclosures (real) all the time. I am just saying you should give me a little respect as a fellow Real audiophile that actually knows good sound and how to achieve it. I would be happy to go toe to toe with anytime with build off challenge just to see the crazy outcomes we would have but its not necessary since I have a respect for you based on the threads you have wrote and that I have read. As should you.

I am trying to go get final authorization to take off for the day since I work 6 days a week. Every week


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> Ok I see.
> It seems like I will have to sell the current 4 channel RCA cable that I have and buy 2 new ones, one for the MA-NX2, and one for the Polk.
> 
> 
> ...


Those wires will be fin to use. There's no need to replace them. Just cut a slit in the sleeve to spread them farther apart when you mount the amps. No big deal. 



hificruzer226 said:


> you are killing me Yes what you say is obvious and correct. However its not my equipment and not my car and not my money, just my customer. Given the chance you would be jealous if you got to install this and not keep it. I myself am jealous. I just wanted to share my fun at work.
> 
> As for as home audio I agree with you to a certain point. Any serious audiophile the can follow formulas can spend way less and get way better sq for the price . however you may match or beat something that is 10 times as much mula in imaging and staging but the dynamics cant be match when you get to companies like von schweikert etc given an open environment.
> 
> ...


Alright, I can see that somehow, I'm not being clear here. If you're looking for me to say that I'm jealous of you working with expensive equipment, then sure, I'm jealous. 

However, I am at a loss as to how my not being impressed or jealous earlier is offensive or disrespectful. I also don't know why you refer to "real" in multiple instances. One could speculate that you're implying that what I do isn't real, as if I design fake or inferior enclosures. I won't go that far because you weren't being very clear. 

I'm not putting you down, I'm just not impressed, and you're taking personal offense to that. Why is that that my inability to be jealous or impressed is automatically perceived as disrespect? My respect for you has absolutely nothing to do with the equipment you install, and I will go on to clarify that I do respect you, your knowledge, and your ability. 

No need to read too far into what I said; I meant no offense.

It may be appropriate to create a new thread about this project. I'd love to see what goes into one of your installs just so I can appreciate the work you do and learn something as well. I don't want to take this thread too far off-topic.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks Andrei, I don't know why I didn't think of cutting the wire lol. Saves me the trouble of opening up the dash again, pheew..


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

yea I did totally thread jack


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Which sound dampening material should I get? I read about one that was recommended as the best for our cars but I can't remember the name.
Also how much should I put in each area of the car?


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## tecollins1 (Nov 6, 2011)

Sound deadener showdown's CLD tiles
you can send don a email with what you are trying to acheive and he will tell you how many you need.
i believe i used 12 per door 6 on the door and 6 on the pannel.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks Terry! 
Also, A previous question I had 2 pages back that I'm still not sure about is these extra set of higher quality screw ring terminals that Andrei recommended;
Do they both go on the positive power wire, the negative ground amp wire, or do they each connect to the battery- 1 on the positive and the other on the negative terminals?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> Thanks Terry!
> Also, A previous question I had 2 pages back that I'm still not sure about is these extra set of higher quality screw ring terminals that Andrei recommended;
> Do they both go on the positive power wire, the negative ground amp wire, or do they each connect to the battery- 1 on the positive and the other on the negative terminals?


The way the wiring kit goes, you ground your amplifier to the chassis, as it would be pointless to run a second wire all the way to the engine bay just for the negative. You use one of those for the battery, and the other for the chassis.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

By the way, did you buy all of the wiring already? If not, I'd like to make a recommendation for a bit of extra wiring.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Terrific! ccasion14:Now I can go out and get some wire cutting and crimping tools to start running power and ground wires. I ran the RCA cables last night from the Passenger side to the trunk, it was real easy, just tucked it under the paneling without having to remove anything.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> By the way, did you buy all of the wiring already? If not, I'd like to make a recommendation for a bit of extra wiring.


I only bought your recommendations on page 2 from KnuKoncepts. Since I am doing two amps now, I can cut the 4 channel RCA wire like you suggested. What else would I need?
an Extra Ground wire I would assume.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> I only bought your recommendations on page 2 from KnuKoncepts. Since I am doing two amps now, I can cut the 4 channel RCA wire like you suggested. What else would I need?
> an Extra Ground wire I would assume.


That's fine. I'll throw some extra wire in your box that I had laying around. Basically to power the 2 channel amp for the front stage.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

tecollins1 said:


> Sound deadener showdown's CLD tiles
> you can send don a email with what you are trying to acheive and he will tell you how many you need.
> i believe i used 12 per door 6 on the door and 6 on the pannel.



12 CLD tiles per Door? Seems like Overkill to me...

I would say 4 tiles per door should the trick, about 10 or 12 in the trunk with about 2 to 4 of those on the Trunk door. Where else should I put the tiles?
How many total should I get? He says 40 can fit in the flat rate box, but that would be $90 and a whole lot of weight that could potentially hit me for -1mpg average...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> 12 CLD tiles per Door? Seems like Overkill to me...
> 
> I would say 4 tiles per door should the trick, about 10 or 12 in the trunk with about 2 to 4 of those on the Trunk door. Where else should I put the tiles?
> How many total should I get? He says 40 can fit in the flat rate box, but that would be $90 and a whole lot of weight that could potentially hit me for -1mpg average...


The outer panel already has some vibration absorber tiles. You can add 2 moreon the outer, and 4 more on the inner. You will need another 4 for the plastic panel, which will buzz a lot and needs to be mass loaded. Figure 10 to be safe per door. 40 tiles sounds reasonable to do the trunk, trunklid, rear deck, and front doors. They aren't as heavy as you think. You definitely won't lose 1mpg over it. I'd grab the 40 tiles. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

I decided that I eventually want to replace the rear door speakers. I feel like the stock speakers will blow out because of how cheaply made they are (From what I saw in Ohio when Andrei and Terry pulled out the fronts).
The ID CTX 6.5cs can go up so high in volume that I believe the rear speakers won't be able to keep up in the high 30's and eventually burst.
(And setting the fader to front is not an option since My Epic 10" Sub is on the rear Channel)

I would have better peace of mind if I had something of superior quality in the rear doors. I know Terry put 6 inch subs in his rear doors, but I'm not sure that is what I want to do. 

Are there any speakers out there that will sound good with my setup and can run off the existing wiring and factory source unit?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> I decided that I eventually want to replace the rear door speakers. I feel like the stock speakers will blow out because of how cheaply made they are (From what I saw in Ohio when Andrei and Terry pulled them out).
> The ID CTX 6.5cs can go up so high in volume that I believe the rear speakers won't be able to keep up in the high 30's and eventually burst.
> 
> I would have better peace of mind if I had something of superior quality in the rear doors. I know Terry put 6 inch subs in his rear doors, but I'm not sure that is what I want to do.
> ...


JBL GTO638 6.5" / 6-3/4" 3-Way Grand Touring Coaxial Car Speakers


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

The specs on those JBL's say 2 ohms, is that the same as the stock rears, or will it just "work" ?

If I remember correctly, The front door stock speakers were 8 ohms when I inspected them.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> The specs on those JBL's say 2 ohms, is that the same as the stock rears, or will it just "work" ?
> 
> If I remember correctly, The front door stock speakers were 8 ohms when I inspected them.


Did you have the Pioneer system or the stock system? I recall either the fronts or the rears being 2 ohm on the Pioneer system. Maybe I got that confused. 

Here's what I would use instead:

Polk Audio db651 6-1/2" Coaxial Car Speakers (Marine Certified)


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Stock System, not pioneer.

I really do think I saw 8 ohms printed on the front stock speakers when I was looking at them right before I threw them in the dumpster behind the hotel.
I guess I can open up the door panel tomorrow and find out for sure, but I am really liking those Polks much better, THANKS!

And from the digging I just did on impedance, maybe the JBL speakers can be used down to 2ohms but it can also play just fine at 4ohms, 8ohms, etc. But you can not do 4ohm or 2ohm on an 8ohm speaker. 
Correct me if I am wrong. Which I probably am lol.


But How about these?
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_53970_JBL-GTO629.html

They are pricey, but I am willing to pay it if you approve (Cloth fabric tweeters?) Dude in the video explains why they are good for listening.
(My rear seat passengers are my 2 kids ages four and five, and My Mother in law on the weekends when we go out to dinner, and the music on those days is radio Pop: Rihanna, Katy Perry, Justin Timberlake, Calvin Harris etc..)

Those tweeters rotate and you can point them up towards the listeners!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> Stock System, not pioneer.
> 
> I really do think I saw 8 ohms printed on the front stock speakers when I was looking at them right before I threw them in the dumpster behind the hotel.
> I guess I can open up the door panel tomorrow and find out for sure, but I am really liking those Polks much better, THANKS!
> ...


Those are not bad, but more than I'd pay for a pair of coaxials just to keep my rear passengers happy. 

Impedance is determined by the speaker, not by the amplifier. Impedance is a measure of the resistance in a wire, or a coil of wire. Speakers use voice coils, which are wires wrapped around a cylinderical tube called a former. A 2 ohm speaker will present 2 ohms of resistance to the amplifier when the amplifier tries to drive a specific amount of power through it. The lower the impedance, the more difficult it is for the amplifier to drive. Some amplifiers are good down to 0.5 ohms if the electrical system is up for it.

I went to the garage and found my old stock speakers. They're 4 ohm, front and rear, for the stock system. That is, unless they changed something for 2013. I would use a 4 ohm speaker.


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## goinovr (May 6, 2013)

Is there enough room under the passenger seat for an amp? I'd prefer not to have it in the trunk.

(manual seats)


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## brendonk22 (Feb 26, 2018)

Thank you!


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