# Charge Fault Indicator... Alternator/Battery issue?



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Are you still on your original battery? An internal short in the battery can do this as well.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Yep, original battery. I should add that after shutting the car off, just turning the ignition on the battery was at 12.3V.

Alternator issues don't seem common based on a quick search of the forum, so I decided to post it up to see if anyone has gone through this before. Lots of threads regarding high output alternator options for car audio, lots of threads regarding random faults and DIC messages, but not much regarding just the charge indicator light.

It's been a while since I've monitored my cruising voltage in the daylight hours, but if I remember right voltage should be somewhere around 12.5V, jumping up over 14V at night with the headlights running.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

I'd suggest pulling the battery and having it load tested. It's possible that the PCM is commanding high idle speed for increased charging. 

However, doesn't the DIC display the charging voltage? I'd think that a bad battery would cause the alternator to go to 14.9-15 volts, and the interior lights to go very bright and hot while the car is operating. 

The three main fuseable links that are part of the positive battery cable connection are all tight, and appear to not be blown? 

If I recall correctly those links are all over 100 amp capacity. One was the starter. Would they fuse the alternator output where it joins up at that connection? 

Seems a bit odd to fuse the feed, vs. the draws, but who knows on the Cruze. I have that diagram packed away on another computer. If I can I'll pull it.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

carbon02 said:


> However, doesn't the DIC display the charging voltage? I'd think that a bad battery would cause the alternator to go to 14.9-15 volts, and the interior lights to go very bright and hot while the car is operating.


That's been my experience with bad batteries as well; the alternator compensates while running and when you shut the car off it won't start again. Boost it and it's fine once running, even with the battery disconnected (haven't tried that with a newer car yet, might not work).



carbon02 said:


> The three main fuseable links that are part of the positive battery cable connection are all tight, and appear to not be blown?


I'll double check that cable and all the other fuses/links on top of the battery. Probably a long shot, but you never know... thanks for the suggestion.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

*Charge Indicator Operation*
The instrument panel cluster illuminates the charge indicator and displays a
warning message in the driver information center if equipped, when the one or
more of the following occurs:

The engine control module (ECM) detects that the generator output is less
than 11 V or greater than 16 V. The instrument panel cluster receives a
GMLAN message from the ECM requesting illumination.

The instrument panel cluster determines that the system voltage is less than
11 V or greater than 16 V for more than 30 seconds. The instrument panel
cluster receives a GMLAN message from the body control module (BCM)
indicating there is a system voltage range concern.

The instrument panel cluster performs the displays test at the start of each
ignition cycle. The indicator illuminates for approximately 3 seconds.

*BATTERY NOT CHARGING SERVICE CHARGING SYSTEM*

The BCM and the ECM will send a GMLAN message to the driver information
center for the BATTERY NOT CHARGING SERVICE CHARGING SYSTEM
message to be displayed. 

It is commanded ON when a charging system DTC is a
current DTC. The message is turned OFF when the conditions for clearing the
DTC have been met.

*SERVICE BATTERY CHARGING SYSTEM*
The BCM and the ECM will send a GMLAN message to the driver information
center for the SERVICE BATTERY CHARGING SYSTEM message to be displayed.

It is commanded ON when a charging system DTC is a current DTC. The
message is turned OFF when the conditions for clearing the DTC have been met.

*Generator*
The generator is a serviceable component. If there is a diagnosed failure of the
generator it must be replaced as an assembly. The engine drive belt drives the
generator. When the rotor is spun it induces an alternating current (AC) into the
stator windings. The AC voltage is then sent through a series of diodes for
rectification. The rectified voltage has been converted into a direct current (DC) for
use by the vehicles electrical system to maintain electrical loads and the battery
charge. The voltage regulator integral to the generator controls the output of the
generator. It is not serviceable. The voltage regulator controls the amount of
current provided to the rotor. If the generator has field control circuit failure, the
generator defaults to an output voltage of 13.8 V.

If the generator defaults to an output voltage of 13.8 can low voltage only occur due to another situation such as grounding wiring ect?


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Great info, carbon! Thanks for posting.

Based on the conditions for the charge indicator, it would seem the only one applicable would be this:

_"The engine control module (ECM) detects that the generator output is less
than 11 V or greater than 16 V. The instrument panel cluster receives a
GMLAN message from the ECM requesting illumination."
_
The only issue with that is, the Cruze has a DIC and I'm not getting a message... only the charge indicator lights up, nothing else.



carbon02 said:


> If the generator defaults to an output voltage of 13.8 can low voltage only occur due to another situation such as grounding wiring ect?


It would be an awful coincidence that an alternator fault happened at the same time as a wiring issue came up. Also, with a low operating voltage condition (11.9V) I would expect a default 13.8V output is not present. I'm leaning towards an internal alternator failure right now.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

I understood the charge indicator to be the red dash light, not the display. However, upon reading more carefully it also mentions a warning message on the DIC display. 

My understanding was that if the alternator fails it fails to a voltage of 13.8 volts. Which we're not seeing on the display with the car running. 

I still believe the GM batteries for early 2011's and 2012's were either undersized for weight fuel economy or questionable problems. The 2013's have a slightly different larger CCA battery. I'd start there. 

I'll be interested in how you hold the engine for alternator removal if you do it. Holding under the pan with a jack still scares me. With 42,000 miles hopefully I still have some time, but it seems every serviceable component requires removal of the engine mount. 

There's a really nice NORCO engine support bar, and a few on amazon that are cheaper. 

http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemD...&kw=NOR78099&gclid=CP_R-vfR-8YCFcESHwodgmQI0g

This puts the force on the strut mounts and not the top fender supports. I'm sure there's cheaper ways, all depends on how long you plan on keeping the Cruze, and how many times you may have to remove that engine mount! 
I guess this will become a necessary service component. With all the oil pans leaking due to sealant used for the gasket, yea I'm scared of support there.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Funny, the GM tech who replaced my water pump supported the engine from below... he had a contraption with two steel plates joined with an acme screw or something similar. I wonder if he managed to screw up my oil pan while he was in there.

Come to think of it, I wonder if there's anything he could have done to mess with the alternator? Obviously I'm stretching here, but the car was absolutely fine before going in and alternator problems are not common. I wonder if he removed the alternator to service the water pump, or perhaps dumped coolant all over the alternator when removing the rear heater hose from the pump.

Oh man, now my gears are turning. The pump was replaced just a couple weeks ago.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Amazing- 

The Factory Service Manual clearly states that the engine is to be supported via the front left engine hook with a engine hoist. As facing the engine. 

I wonder if all the electrical connectors are attached to the alternator? 

I've heard water is ok for alternators, but coolant? Most of the alternators that are mounted low have splash protection around them, so I don't "buy" the argument that alternators can get wet. 

Lifting engine from below at a GM dealership? If there's anyone out there that lives at dealerships that can confirm that there's a lifting location other than the oil pan, please chime in and correct me. 

As we're seeing more leaking at oil pans due to sealant issues, I wouldn't be surprised that force against the pan would cause leaks in this sealant.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

I went out at lunch to check it out. All fuses on the top battery panel are good, connections seem tight, battery ground is solid. I can't get to the fusibles with a white shirt on, but I'll check those out later.



carbon02 said:


> I wonder if all the electrical connectors are attached to the alternator?


I was thinking the same thing. I'll lift the car and check all that out tonight. Man, if he did have it out to replace the water pump and didn't remember to tighten the main charge cable or something, causing the alternator to over work and cook itself, that dealership will have an alternator to replace free of charge.

I can't see why the alternator would need to come out to replace the water pump, it seems far enough back and out of the way. You never know though... step one in the service manual is often to do a bunch of safety prep steps prior to commencing any work.

I'll check the alternator mounting bolts for signs of recent use.


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

Connections sound possible, if there is a fuse link wire the mechanic may have stretched the wire and damaged it, I had a intermittent that drove me nuts for at least 2 months on a sunfire that was worked on by the dealer, turns out the mechanic got lazy and did not unplug connectors to replace the valve cover gasket, he stretched the wires and broke a sensor wire which caused all the trouble, I mean the car would go into limp mode and acted like it was on its last limb, all caused by the mechanic stretching the wiring out-and the wire insulation was not even broke-just the wire inside--to test pull wires and see if they give inside, kinda suttle but you can see the insulation stretch at the break, if your problem just started after they worked on it I would highly suspect what I said or it's possible he spilled water into the alternator pulling the water pump


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Blue Angel, I've noticed that a lot of the warning messages we get in the US are not displayed in Canada. This may be why you're not getting the DIC text warning.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

Blue Angel said:


> Boost it and it's fine once running, even with the battery disconnected (haven't tried that with a newer car yet, might not work).


Running a car without a battery sounds like a good way to fry all the electronics. Not a good idea. (Yes, I've done that with my '67 - but "on board electronics" in that car was the AM radio. I wouldn't chance it on a Cruze.)

I'd check belt tension. If the belt is slipping (even if the alt is still spinning), the amps won't be there to keep the voltage up.

Something else to consider: Do you have anything wired to the battery? Is it running though the current sensor (if you car has one)? Added wiring could cause the car's charge controller to get confused about how much power is going into the battery.

I'm not sure why you'd have to support the engine to change the alternator - unless you were also changing the belt.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

The AllData procedure for the water pump does not mention removal of the alternator. However there's a lot of bolts on that pump, and there's only two holding the alternator, so maybe it was pulled by a mechanic looking for more space?

ChevyGuy-

Maybe if you could get on the tensioner to loosen the belt off the alternator pulley the alternator may come out without removal of the top engine mount. 

There have been a few you-tube video's of people removing the old belt without pulling the engine mount, but he was not successful in reinstalling the factory belt. 

Alternator maybe you could do by just loosening the belt. Water pump is another story.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

carbon02 said:


> Water pump is another story.


I haven't looked at it, but how so? I know why you have to pull the mount to change the belt, and the manual probably calls for "remove belt" as SOP for anything to do with it, but I'd think you could slip the belt off and move it out of the way for most changes.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't believe there's enough clearance around the engine support bracket connecting to the timing chain cover directly on top of the water pump. 

There's only one person here on the forum that has done his own water pump, because he rebuilt a salvaged title car, and both times he had to remove the engine bracket/belt assembly. 

I haven't done it, so there maybe an alternative way, but I think dealerships that are supporting the engine when doing water pump changes, could be damaging oil pan seals. I would definitely support it from above using the engine support hook points.

Could it be done, maybe it would be a good challenge working the pulley and the pump away from the engine support. I'm a Cruze nerd, and have collected several engine pictures..


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

ChevyGuy said:


> Running a car without a battery sounds like a good way to fry all the electronics. Not a good idea. (Yes, I've done that with my '67 - but "on board electronics" in that car was the AM radio. I wouldn't chance it on a Cruze.)


I should have added "may fry electronics" to my "may not work" comment, agreed. 



ChevyGuy said:


> Do you have anything wired to the battery? Is it running though the current sensor (if you car has one)? Added wiring could cause the car's charge controller to get confused about how much power is going into the battery.


The electrical system in this car is 100% stock, I bought it new and haven't changed anything. I added the GM foglight kit, but that's all. 100% agreed on bypassing the battery's current sensor, I've been preaching that ever since people started doing the "big 3" mod and adding a second ground cable in parallel with the stock battery ground, and leaving it outside the sensor. If I was to do such a thing I would add a single larger cable that replaces the stock one, and be sure to pass it through the sensor.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

obermd said:


> Blue Angel, I've noticed that a lot of the warning messages we get in the US are not displayed in Canada. This may be why you're not getting the DIC text warning.


Interesting... I wonder if the manual says anything about that on exported vehicles. I have the service manual set at home, I'll check into it tonight.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

carbon02 said:


> There's only one person here on the forum that has done his own water pump...


Based on all the speculation I have surrounding this service visit, I wish I was the SECOND one to do his own water pump! It's covered under warranty, but I was SOOOO close to pulling the trigger on buying a new pump and just putting it in myself. If the car didn't need to go in for two recalls anyway I probably would have just done it myself.

For what it's worth, the two recalls performed were the airbag coil wiring and the engine shield cut/power steering wire clutch fluid insulation. I removed the shield before taking it in so they couldn't cut it.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

So I'm at the dealership. I drive by it on my way home every day, I figured I might as well stop in and get someone to take a whiff of my burning alternator, which stinks to high heaven any time I'm stopped... the stink blows right in through the vents.

Long story short, I decide to leave it with them even though it might cost me 1/3 hour to have them look at it. I guess I'm taking a chance to see if they'll "good will" the repair since the car is barely outside coverage.

So I'm waiting for the shuttle and I see a couple techs poking around under the hood. They're at it for a while. I walk out to share the history (there was no details on the work order), and one of them walks up with a booster pack just as the second comes up with a flashlight saying the alternator is fried. The car won't start, the battery is toast. Funny, it started perfectly a half hour before when I left work, I guess the alternator has an internal short and drained the battery after I shut it off. It went from properly charged (12.5V driving home) to dead in about 30 minutes. Yeah, this battery is now dead... and I bet it had nothing wrong with it until I shut the car off.

Let's see how this goes.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

I'll bet a diode fried. The diode rectifies the AC that comes out of the alternator, but it also keeps the battery from discharging though the windings. Yeah, that will drain a battery in short order. And all that energy doesn't just dissipate harmlessly. It ends up as heat.

(Oh, I guess I didn't mention the time I had a rented Mustang's alternator catch fire. I was almost to the airport at the time and just drove it back since I was leaving anyway.) 

And a open diode means the alternator only has 2/3 power and possibly excessive ripple. Not to mention putting a strain on the remaining diodes.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

BlueAngel-

Hopefully you have a reasonable dealership that won't charge a customer an arm and a leg for what could have been started by their attempted repair.

I started a new thread under the 1.4L engine category about the water pump. It appears that the original water pump kit is available at Rockauto for about $100 USD. 

The airbag clock spring, ( or whatever it was..) I guess I would have gone in for. I understand your reasoning for having them do it. Now sourcing for an alternator. 

I think you would be the first for that one. I know I've seen them from recycled cars for under $50 USD. Maybe a potential there given it's easy to replace.


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

ChevyGuy said:


> I'll bet a diode fried. The diode rectifies the AC that comes out of the alternator, but it also keeps the battery from discharging though the windings. Yeah, that will drain a battery in short order. And all that energy doesn't just dissipate harmlessly. It ends up as heat.
> 
> (Oh, I guess I didn't mention the time I had a rented Mustang's alternator catch fire. I was almost to the airport at the time and just drove it back since I was leaving anyway.)
> 
> And a open diode means the alternator only has 2/3 power and possibly excessive ripple. Not to mention putting a strain on the remaining diodes.


Yeah and a open diode can cause all sorts of havoc with the electronics, my motorhome 454 chevy alternator had a open diode and the speedo would go nuts from all the resulting noise put on the battery line and it had a almost gear drive blower sounding whine, it was a real common failure on certain ac alternators--especially if they got wet !!

I'm thinkin the battery should still be OK even if severely discharged it should charge back up--with a good alternator
I just hate taking my car in to have it screwed up by the "factory certified tech" it's almost a given they will leave off a bolt or not torque properly or leave wiring not secured properly, the dealers around me have the mechanics "bid" on jobs, so the way it works is if GM pays 10hr for a job and the mechanic bids 7hrs he obviously is going to round off all corners to get it done, so hence the sloppy workmanship, I'm of the opinion that your vehicle will only be serviced properly to factory specifications if you do the work yourself !!!


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

KENSTV123 said:


> I'm thinkin the battery should still be OK even if severely discharged it should charge back up--with a good alternator


Depends on the age of the battery. For a old battery, it can be the last straw. The early model Cruzes are coming of age for a new battery.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Update - I still don't have my car back. Good thing I've got my old reliable Corvette sitting around to drive while all this is going on.

So they kept it over night, called me the next morning to tell me that, yes, the alternator is cooked. They will order a new one, which will take 2-3 business days since GM canada doesn't have even one of them in stock, and it will cost me over $800 for the repair with taxes.

Yeah... no

I push back a little, asking g if there's anything they can do to "good will" it through a warranty claim since (a it's barely out of warranty and b) there's a good chance this is the fault of their tech filling it with coolant. He'll call be back.

Calls back, says they can good will half of the cost of the repair, but it will still cost me almost $600 with taxes.

Yeah... no.

I stop by on my way home to discuss in person. They are unwilling even to give me a break on the cost of purchasing the alternator and fixing it myself, unless you consider a $565 alternator at 10% discount a "break". The service counter guy says he will discuss with the manager the next day. Oh, and I casually point out that the alternator sells in the U.S. for about $250. Retail.

I get a call the next morning and, since I'm a "good customer" they're willing to fix the car for the same cost as me buying an alternator from the U.S. and fixing it myself, and they will attempt to pass the added cost through to GM Warranty at their risk if it doesn't work. Total cost to me will be $300 + tax.

As much as I would have liked to start screaming and shouting, I accept this offer. They could have denied everything and told me to go away, so at least they are doing something. This is probably the second best scenario, the first being them just giving me an alternator and sending me on my way.

Am I happy? No. Do I wish I had changed that water pump myself? Absolutely! At least that way I would know with 100% certainty that it was done right and there was no collateral damage (alternator OR oil pan sealing as mentioned above). When you do something yourself you have only yourself to blame if something goes wrong. When someone else is in there screwing around, and then something else happens down the road, you have no idea if it's their fault.

Now let's see if my battery is toast or not...


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry to hear that. I looked at the new parts to the Rockauto catalog, and the alternators are listed for about $250. It's just the idea behind how this all went down that's sad. 

I hope this is a factory New ACDelco alternator, not a low mileage recycler yard part. It appears that these go for about $25 to $50 from a used 1.4L engine. Most dealerships that do body repair are used to getting salvaged parts, as that's what insurance companies pay for. I'm sorry I'm so skeptical, but I've been sold un-needed parts too many times and when a dealership says we can't get used parts that's not true. If it's a body shop repair they get them delivered from salvage yards daily! 

I have the Brake Switch recall and the splash shield recall open. Water pump weeps a little bit when cold, other than that my car after 42,000 miles has not had an issue. I think I'll be doing the pump myself when the time comes. 

I wonder if they will be "supporting the engine" to do the alternator? If so I'd love to see where they put a lift from the bottom.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

They're getting me a new alternator, and they have to wait to get it from GM's US distribution system. That's what they told me anyways. The alternator is easy to see, as is the label with the part number. According to many parts sites, the original 2012 part number has been superceeded with a new one, so I should be getting the new one.

I have a manual, so the brake switch recall didn't apply to my car even though it did fail (not a safety concern on a manual). I didn't even bother getting them to fix it, I just bought the switch (~$25) and did it myself. FAR easier and less hassle than dropping the car off, getting a shuttle home, etc., which is unfortunately about the only way to get an "appointment" with a dealership anymore. Not to mention, done by me, done right, the first time, no collateral damage.


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## jsusanka (Jan 31, 2011)

Blue Angel said:


> Funny, the GM tech who replaced my water pump supported the engine from below... he had a contraption with two steel plates joined with an acme screw or something similar. I wonder if he managed to screw up my oil pan while he was in there.
> 
> Come to think of it, I wonder if there's anything he could have done to mess with the alternator? Obviously I'm stretching here, but the car was absolutely fine before going in and alternator problems are not common. I wonder if he removed the alternator to service the water pump, or perhaps dumped coolant all over the alternator when removing the rear heater hose from the pump.
> 
> Oh man, now my gears are turning. The pump was replaced just a couple weeks ago.


How bad was your water pump leaking. The last leak I had when they replaced mine earlier this month the fluid leaked back towards the fire wall and when I looked I did wonder if it got on the alternator. 

These dam water pumps are causing more problems than what they are worth. I don't think it is a coincidence that your alternator went out after a water pump replacement. 

Fricken water pump is a major component and how GM can just extend the warranty and think everything is okay is beyond me. The more you mess with crap the more there is a chance something else will break. 

GM - customer support - fix the dam problem with the water pumps. All this water pump crap is going to kill resale value if there is anything left now anyway. 

I am at the point where if I get more than 20,000 miles out of water pump I am thinking of never touching the cooling system again to flush it or anything. There is obviously a system problem with these and there is a reason the pumps keep failing. What is it? pressure? air? overflow tank misdesign? there has to be something that is killing these pumps. there cannot be that much of a string of bad water pumps. I was thinking of handing my cruze off to my daughter when the time comes but I have to say at this point I will probably keep our older car and get rid of our cruze. I cannot mess with my daughter and have the car break down because it is too expensive to fix a known problem with the cooling system. 

Sorry I have to rant but I am getting tired of hearing of all these water pumps getting replaced. I guess I should feel lucky because really this has been the only problem that I have with the car. I also have had headaches since I bought this car and when I used amsoil coolant the headaches went away and I was feeling great but now I got the pump replaced and using super duper dex-cool earlier this month the headaches are starting to come back.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

jsusanka said:


> How bad was your water pump leaking. The last leak I had when they replaced mine earlier this month the fluid leaked back towards the fire wall and when I looked I did wonder if it got on the alternator.
> 
> These dam water pumps are causing more problems than what they are worth. I don't think it is a coincidence that your alternator went out after a water pump replacement.


My water pump was leaking rather slowly, and in fact the coolant level stabilized when it got down to about 1/2" above the lower hose on the coolant reservoir.

I can't say for sure that the leaking pump didn't get any coolant on/in the alternator, but I would assume not unless there's a very strong air current blowing past the front of the engine while driving. I had to look pretty close to see evidence of a coolant leak.

PART ONE OF THE STORY - THE PART I LEFT OUT BEFORE:

In my case I'm about 90% sure the tech who changed the pump took off the heater core hose, which connects to the rear of the water pump right above the alternator, and let it drain into the alternator. The car had been FLAWLESS since I bought it and had been touched by no one other than me, and people changing oil (before I started doing it myself). Immediately after getting the car back from the water pump job I smelled coolant, and burning, maybe burning coolant?

The smell was intermittent but the day before the car died at the dealer I had driven downtown with my wife (Sunday). It was really hot that day and I had the AC blasting the whole time. When we parked underground at the mall the car smelled like it was going to catch fire. Popping the hood it was VERY obvious where the smell was coming from (alternator), and the smell was that nasty burnt electronics smell with a hint of magic smoke.

The next morning on my way to work is when the low charge indicator came on, and on the way home from work without using the AC the car had that "about to catch fire" smell going on again. Since my cowl is not properly sealed (like most Cruzes), any stink under the hood finds its way directly to my nose in short order, and intensifies when the car is sitting still. At that point I thought it might be a good time to drive it to the dealer.

I LEFT ALL THAT OUT OF THE INITIAL POST FOR A REASON. I wanted this thread to be approached from an open minded point of view, since all of my searching turned up pretty much nothing in the way of Cruze alternator failures and I wanted to be sure I hadn't missed something. In fact, the only Cruze alternator failures I was able to find were related to bad batteries, and the alternator failures happened only after all kinds of other symptoms had crept up well in advance. Rogue Cruze alternator failures not associated with something else going wrong just don't seem to exist...

Combine the facts:

- There's almost NOTHING on the internet regarding premature Cruze alternator failure
- GM Canada doesn't even stock alternators as replacement parts
- No aftermarket companies even make a replacement for the Cruze 1.4T alternator (no business case?)
- My car had ZERO electrical issues for three years
- After my water pump is replaced the car starts getting random burning smells
- Within a few weeks the alternator is dead

As I said, I'm about 90% sure my alternator fell victim to the negligence of a careless Service Tech. Just out of warranty, and I'll be out $300 + tax because of it. And my battery will likely suffer a premature death after being completely depleted in about a half hour.

That "expensive" $150 water pump sure is looking affordable now... live and learn I guess. DIY FTW.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Sorry to hear Blue Angel. 

Another one of those learning experiences.


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