# Flex fuel e85



## MIKESUBURBAN98 (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi everybody, has anybody equipped his car with a Flex Fuel kit on the 1.8l engine ? What's your opinion about it ?


----------



## wbwing (Feb 23, 2011)

Hmm... I don't understand the obsession with E85. I don't think E85 is good for any engine. If you upgrade components so they are corrosion resistant, there are still other wear problems associated with ethanol. The cleaning effect that ethanol has can induce increased wear if the oil lubrication is cleaned away.


----------



## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

wbwing said:


> Hmm... I don't understand the obsession with E85. I don't think E85 is good for any engine. If you upgrade components so they are corrosion resistant, there are still other wear problems associated with ethanol. The cleaning effect that ethanol has can induce increased wear if the oil lubrication is cleaned away.


Apart from some minor seepage there is no place oil and fuel should occupy the same place, and if they are straight up gasoline will cause the same kind of damage. In fact with the exception of the combustion chamber fuel should not be touching anything mechanical in an engine. I fanything you gain the cleaning effect of removing carbon build up from the combustion area. After 5 tanks of gas of E85 in my Tahoe you couldn't find an ounce of carbon even in the exhaust. You can argue that E85 will eventually eat away at seals and you may be right over a very extended period of time but most modern engines use ethanol resistant parts since most gas has ethanol in it in a lesser percentage. My only real concern would be valve seals and I'm sure it would be a very long time IF they were to go bad. There are alot of benefits to E-85 for performance reasons, especially forced induction. But for most people it won't be worth the time or aggravation to "convert" as you will never make your money back on the cheaper gas.


OP: Why do you want to run E85?


----------



## Spaceme (Jan 20, 2011)

E85 is terrible in nearly every way. It is corrosive to the engine and fuel system. It has nowhere near the energy density that gasoline has so your fuel mileage is about half. And because of that, is defeats one of the so called advantages that people tout about it and that being that it is cleaner. Well, combustion is combustion whether it is gasoline or ethanol and the waste products are water and carbon dioxide. So since you have to burn twice as much to go the same distance, you are still putting out the same amount of emissions. I know that the combustion in an engine is never perfectly complete but catalytic converters take care of everything else not completely burnt. And because ethanol reduces the supply of corn that goes to making food for people and food for most farm animals, it has driven the cost of food WAY up especially in the past 3 or so years. Beef is triple the cost it was 2 years ago. Sorry for the rant but E85 is pure BS.


----------



## shawn672 (Oct 31, 2010)

Spaceme said:


> E85 is terrible in nearly every way. Sorry for the rant but E85 is pure BS.


e85 gives more power and burns cooler. its good for performance.. but yea, gas mileage goes way down and it takes away from a food resource.. not a good idea for anything but power

mind you, this car would need to be tuned for e85 most likely, and without spoiling too much, the car may not run full e85 yet (but rather an e50 type mix of 93+e85)


----------



## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

The only place you might see corrosion is in the fuel lines. I have NEVER seen the inside of an engine (including my Tahoe's which ran on E85 for about 3 years/50K) that had corrosion on the engine and I have taken apart more then a few running on different ethanol percentages. When I pulled the heads on my truck to fix a head gasket everything looked brand new with 140K on the clock. There is so little fuel injected into the cylinder at any given time and the fact that it doesn't sit in there that makes engine corrosion an absolutely silly concept due to E85. But Def agree you are never going to save money by going E85 but you can get more power safely out of a E85, just won't be as efficient as you will generally need 20-30% more fuel to achieve the same goals. The big worry with E85 is the fuel lines and the tank in vehicles with a metal tank. Almost all modern vehicles have ethanol resistant equipment now that flex fuel has become popular since it is much easier for a manufacturer to make 1 set of parts for a car and just add electronics for flex fuel. As long as the pump/injectors are up to the task for this car you would just have to tune it for E85 and it should run just fine for a long time.


----------



## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

...truly "Flex-Fuel" E85 engines need & use LARGER diameter injectors (~30%?) than those used on regular E0-E10 'gasohol' engines.


----------



## MIKESUBURBAN98 (Apr 7, 2011)

I already know what can be the consequences of the E85 in theory. I equipped my own K2500 Suburban 454 engine with a E85 kit. But for a Cruze, did someone had problems ?


----------



## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

If you have the fuel system and tuning to support it you won't have a problem. I'd be a bit more concerned with the 1.4 since it has a turbo would be tough to make it run safely on both, but you could still tune for E85


----------



## shawn672 (Oct 31, 2010)

NBrehm said:


> If you have the fuel system and tuning to support it you won't have a problem. I'd be a bit more concerned with the 1.4 since it has a turbo would be tough to make it run safely on both, but you could still tune for E85


The cruze will most likely not support _full_ e85


----------



## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

I ran a tank of E30-E35 (depending on how much ethanol was actually in the gas since they do have to tell you). The car ran fine. In fact, on a cruise across town at night doing 62 I was able to still achieve 53 mpg (DIC).

However, under load and in the heat, the MPG does drop noticeably. Much more so than with gas. In the end, the cost was about break even, which is where they have kept the price of ethanol, about break even with gas.


----------



## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

shawn672 said:


> The cruze will most likely not support _full_ e85


 
Yeah I am thinking there may not be enough injector, but alot of the "kits" increase the pulse and not the flow rate, so in theory anyway stock injectors would work, but would be even less efficient than a true Flex Fuel car. Not sure if I would take that gamble as I would like to have the cushion of KNOWING I had enough injector.


----------



## rlhammon (Apr 7, 2011)

NBrehm said:


> Yeah I am thinking there may not be enough injector, but alot of the "kits" increase the pulse and not the flow rate, so in theory anyway stock injectors would work, but would be even less efficient than a true Flex Fuel car. Not sure if I would take that gamble as I would like to have the cushion of KNOWING I had enough injector.


Yes, Trifecta wen the "pulse" route on the LNF engines... but under heavy throttle (racing conditions I was using it for) I would eventually starve the fuel system due to lack of flow in the high pressure fuel pump. The LNF's are direct injection remember.

On the Cruze, when I asked Vince to take a look at it, he indicated there isn't enough room in the pulse window, and the injector duty cycle was too high to increase for the needed flow to run E85.

In the end you'll be able to wind out more power out of an engine with E85 vs. E10 gasoline... but only if you can safely deliver the fuel. In the end, on my LNF, I went back to 104 octane gasoline, and I was quicker every time on a course vs. the E85 due to the fuel starve issues.

I don't see a way to run E85, currently, on the 1.4L Cruze.


----------



## thevoid (Aug 1, 2011)

Of course there is a way, you just need higher flow injectors. Turbo makes no difference


----------



## Dayhoff35 (Sep 7, 2011)

wbwing said:


> Hmm... I don't understand the obsession with E85. I don't think E85 is good for any engine. If you upgrade components so they are corrosion resistant, there are still other wear problems associated with ethanol. The cleaning effect that ethanol has can induce increased wear if the oil lubrication is cleaned away.


Most newer age engines can withstand e no problem, i run it in my cobalt, well e47 with no ill effects. The obsession is all that extra octane ~121 octane in e85 compared to 87/91/93 in pump. Also you cant beat the price. As for tuning i love it in my balt, it takes alot more to flow it though.


----------



## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

Dayhoff35 said:


> Most newer age engines can withstand e no problem, i run it in my cobalt, well e47 with no ill effects. The obsession is all that extra octane ~121 octane in e85 compared to 87/91/93 in pump. Also you cant beat the price. As for tuning i love it in my balt, it takes alot more to flow it though.


E85 is between 94 - 96 octane. Not 121.


----------



## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Quazar said:


> E85 is between 94 - 96 octane. Not 121.


E85 = 100-108 Octane


----------



## Dayhoff35 (Sep 7, 2011)

It has a minimum of 105 but I but about so it could be lower that's just what I read in a tuning book, however you guys could just get a meth set up if you wanted some added cooling/more timing


----------



## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

NBrehm said:


> E85 = 100-108 Octane


That is not true, its a misrepresentation that even some states officially use. it its a number achieved by taking the octane of ethanol, the octane of gas, the percentage of each and coming up with a number. I have even done this before. 

For instance E85 would be 85 octane gas + 115 octane ethanol. Giving us a range of 106 - 110, which is what most people believe.


Using the formula M+R/2 and the method used to validate octane, it was found that E85 actually has a octane rating of 94 - 96. Its been proven in octane engines.


----------



## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

...what Wiki says:

_"*Comparisons to regular gasoline*_

_E85 has an __octane rating__ higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its *Changes in Gasoline IV manual*, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests." __[6]_

_Examples of this mis-citation can be found at the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association titled "E85 Facts"__[7]__ which cites a range of 100-105, and a document at the Texas State Energy Conservation Office titled "Ethanol"__[8]__, which cites a 113 rating."_


----------



## rlhammon (Apr 7, 2011)

thevoid said:


> Of course there is a way, you just need higher flow injectors. Turbo makes no difference


And the manufacturer and part number for the high flow injectors for the 1.4L engine in the Cruze are???

Hence why I said, *I don't see a way to run E85, currently, on the 1.4L Cruze. *

The usual "tricks" with the stock components won't work in our engine, GM didn't leave enough head room in the pulse window to push more fuel with the stock sized injectors.

I'm still curious as to why so many people are looking for higher horsepower out of this car. It's not a tuner type car by design. The turbo isn't easily changed, plastic intake pipes, really small intercooler. You'd have to spend a considerable amount of money trying to swap out parts (which means getting someone to make those parts, they don't exist in the aftermarket yet).


----------



## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

rlhammon said:


> And the manufacturer and part number for the high flow injectors for the 1.4L engine in the Cruze are???
> 
> Hence why I said, *I don't see a way to run E85, currently, on the 1.4L Cruze. *
> 
> ...


Its the nature of man. Like the person who buys a budget processor and overclocks it. Some people like to tinker and see if they can get more out of what they have. The cost of it is often lost, is often an addition. The males modding/shopaholic addiction.


----------



## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

I would think it would be pretty easy to find a highflow injector that fits the cruze


----------



## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

...*three* very important points to remember:

1) the ENGINE can be E85 certified...
2) the VEHICLE can be E85 certified...
3) _both_ the ENGINE and VEHICLE can be E85 certified, ie: Flex-Fuel

...ENGINE qualified means the ECU knows how to detect and handle E85 fuel.

...VEHICLE qualified means all the fuel system (tank, pump, filter, etc.) are built to handle ethanol-laced fuel.

...at the moment, GM has _not_ declared the Cruze to be E85 certified or qualified, although certain "parts" have been E85 tested.


----------



## FoSHO99 (May 16, 2011)

If you spend your time and do the research instead of just reading what 1 site or publication said, then actually "convert" and use it yourself for a while, you would see the big picture with ethanol.

There are different blends for each time of the year. That's why it is posted as 105 MINIMUM octane at gas stations. It will go from E70 in the winter to E85 in the summer in steps depending on your area. The actual octane may get up to 109-110 but that isn't the biggest benefit. It has much more properties as far as "cooling" and burn that if harnessed correctly, will produce more power than 110 leaded.

There are other ways to convert than raising the pulses, but either way it takes about 30% more demand in fuel and that's something the pump and injectors must keep up with.

One thing E85 will kill completely is knock. These flex fuel cars are getting better in recent years as far as mpg, but they could run a lot more timing than what they are now to bring back some mpg. I doubt the factory will setup a car to do this, just like people go to trifecta and he squeezes out some more mpg out of these cars and then he recommends to stay on 91 octane.

Brazil has been running Ethanol grown on their soil since the 70's. We need to follow suit and stop sending our paychecks to some saudi prince.


----------

