# Subwoofer: 12" vs 2 8"



## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Well just so you know on normal Camaros that I do (non z28) you lose a bit of pressure (spl) from trunk to the cab. After thinking about it, a 4th order isnt a bad idea at all. I have built several but I always end up feeling like I could make it better. If there is someone on here that has very good success with them than that would be great. Just so you know there is a lot more to building a really awesome enclosure other than entering in T/S parameters and having modeling software that tells you its specs. TLs on the other hand I have built dozens with great success. Hundreds of sealed and bass reflex designs.

I am sure Andrei will jump in on here. Band pass enclosures aren't as common anymore compared to 90's car audio. 

My recommendation is try not to think about what size subwoofer or what style enclosure you want. Try to think about how you want it to sound.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Structurally, there is no difference between a 2014 Camaro LS and a Z/28. I just have to do a lot more deadening because there is no sound proofing at all installed in the Z/28 
I would never think to just plug in numbers into software. I know that this is a tricky thing and that's why I'm looking for someone that can recommend the drivers and design/build the enclosures. 
You are right, of course, the enclosure type should be chosen to match the sound you're looking for. In my old 2010 2SS Camaro, I had the system in with the Ultimo in a sealed enclosure and didn't like it at all. I spent a lot of time trying to tune it and never got it right. I am looking for very high SQ and like things tight and clean, not a big fan of muddy bass at all.
I'm not married to the band pass idea, just thought it may work based on my past experience...I'm open to any idea that will give me the sound I want. Budget is not an issue since I already have everything except the woofers and box.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Since I'm going with the Dayton RS180 for mids, I was looking at these Dayton subs 
What do you guys think?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> Structurally, there is no difference between a 2014 Camaro LS and a Z/28. I just have to do a lot more deadening because there is no sound proofing at all installed in the Z/28
> I would never think to just plug in numbers into software. I know that this is a tricky thing and that's why I'm looking for someone that can recommend the drivers and design/build the enclosures.
> You are right, of course, the enclosure type should be chosen to match the sound you're looking for. In my old 2010 2SS Camaro, I had the system in with the Ultimo in a sealed enclosure and didn't like it at all. I spent a lot of time trying to tune it and never got it right. I am looking for very high SQ and like things tight and clean, not a big fan of muddy bass at all.
> I'm not married to the band pass idea, just thought it may work based on my past experience...I'm open to any idea that will give me the sound I want. Budget is not an issue since I already have everything except the woofers and box.


I understand there is not a difference structurally between the two I was referring to deadening and seats. For very high sq you can do a full wave transmission line with maybe a single 10 and fit it in there. Personally I like TLs and free air for SQ bass. The benefit of a TL is you can start to get a decent portion of the wave form in a room that doesnt have the space for a full length wave. So if you do a full wave length (using the rear wave form) you will be one of the people to fit a true bass wave in their Camaro. TLs sound effortless you can almost touch the bass in the air. IMO the closest you can get to that is free air (in a car).

Before I used Xtreme's Dual 18. I used the TB 6X9 subs in my rear deck and I was very impressed. Not a ton of db but a clean transient response. They blended very well with the front stage.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> I understand there is not a difference structurally between the two I was referring to deadening and seats. For very high sq you can do a full wave transmission line with maybe a single 10 and fit it in there. Personally I like TLs and free air for SQ bass. The benefit of a TL is you can start to get a decent portion of the wave form in a room that doesnt have the space for a full length wave. So if you do a full wave length (using the rear wave form) you will be one of the people to fit a true bass wave in their Camaro. TLs sound effortless you can almost touch the bass in the air. IMO the closest you can get to that is free air (in a car).
> 
> Before I used Xtreme's Dual 18. I used the TB 6X9 subs in my rear deck and I was very impressed. Not a ton of db but a clean transient response. They blended very well with the front stage.


Sorry for the dumb question, but what is TL? Not the acronym, but the concept. I really am shooting for high SQ but I like it loud too


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

swrocket said:


> Since I'm going with the Dayton RS180 for mids, I was looking at these Dayton subs
> What do you guys think?


What would be the benefit to you to use 8" subwoofers? Are you that tight on space in the trunk?


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Ha, ok, I just JFGI'd it an now I see what it is.
That seems even more complicated than the 4th order bandpass LOL.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> What would be the benefit to you to use 8" subwoofers? Are you that tight on space in the trunk?


I would like to keep the weight and space consumption to a minimum yes, but really I'm just thinking that getting the bass into the cabin rather than the trunk would be better in this car and 8" subs will give me smaller boxes in the bandpass alignment.
I did have that Morel 12" Ultimo installed in my old 2010 Camaro SS in a sealed enclosure and I was very unhappy with the bass in that car, it went low but was not what I expected or wanted.
Again, I'm not married to anything so I'm open to what would produce the best sound.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

swrocket said:


> Ha, ok, I just JFGI'd it an now I see what it is.
> That seems even more complicated than the 4th order bandpass LOL.


There are some benefits. I built a pair of thin floor standing home speakers with two 3" drivers each that I'm able to get response out of down to 40hz. There's a lot you can do with a transmission line but it isn't always practical for mobile audio.

I've become quite spoiled with the two 18" subs firing directly into the cabin.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> There are some benefits. I built a pair of thin floor standing home speakers with two 3" drivers each that I'm able to get response out of down to 40hz. There's a lot you can do with a transmission line but it isn't always practical for mobile audio.
> 
> I've become quite spoiled with the two 18" subs firing directly into the cabin.


Do the 18" fire into the back of the back seat or really straight into the cabin? I read your post on the dual infinite baffle 18"s and IB is certainly an option but I'm no more comfortable designing that than the bandpass...
hificruzer, you know Camaro interiors, will IB work here as well?


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

I found this IB install on Camaro5, looks easy enough; I'm assuming I would have to seal off the trunk from the cabin perfectly for this to work right?
Certainly less work, money and weight than enclosures


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I dont know if xtreme changed his set up but the version I am running tech fires in to the trunk. IB is the best way to go but it does take quite a bit more tuning so I would recommend a minidsp to run it as with mine I just cant get what I want out of mine with amp settings.

2 15" in a camaro sweet

run these IMO
Dayton Audio IB385-8 15" Infinite Baffle Subwoofer


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> Ha, ok, I just JFGI'd it an now I see what it is.
> That seems even more complicated than the 4th order bandpass LOL.


Its is way more complicated because its not an exact science theres an artform and experience that plays in to it. You can also tune it by stuffing density. Then there are different types of lines like tapered straight etc. I have just been one of the lucky ones who have had really great success with them. A proper TL will always outperform a bandpass enclosure SQ wise anyday. 

IB is the best option IMO for you ... and for me too lol at least in my car.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> Do the 18" fire into the back of the back seat or really straight into the cabin? I read your post on the dual infinite baffle 18"s and IB is certainly an option but I'm no more comfortable designing that than the bandpass...
> hificruzer, you know Camaro interiors, will IB work here as well?


I considered firing my black widows directly in the cab. However once I adjusted the phase on them I got my desired results even though they would sound a little less colored I would however lose gain on my subsonic freq response. They are still braking in as they only have about 2-3 hours playing time. I am gonna try and build my dash pods this weekend for the illuminators, then minidsp and 4 channel, than my morel mw166-4 my buddy has a makerbot so we will be designing an enclosure that goes in the door to give me a really strong midbass and my mmats sq4160 for the scan speaks and one of my random amps for the morel midbass. Than years of tuning lol


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> I dont know if xtreme changed his set up but the version I am running tech fires in to the trunk. IB is the best way to go but it does take quite a bit more tuning so I would recommend a minidsp to run it as with mine I just cant get what I want out of mine with amp settings.
> 
> 2 15" in a camaro sweet
> 
> ...


You guys are convincing me 
Will these woofers work well with ARC SE2300 amp? They are 8ohm so the power requirement would be higher no? I really don't want to buy another amp if I can help it.
I already ordered the miniDSP 2X4 along with advanced plugin, for the front stage, but you're saying I need another one for the subs? The HU will have sub pre-outs as well as EQ, x-over and time alignment (which I was not planning to use since I have the miniDSP) so maybe I'll use the HU to set the eq and x-over for the subs...ah, I guess another 200 bucks for another 2X4 miniDSP will not kill me...


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

You guys have any opinion on the AE subs? They seem to be popular in IB implementations and not too expensive

*IB15HT 4ohm*
Fs: 16 Hz
Qms: 6.8
Vas: 440 L
Cms: .45 mm/N
Mms: 220 g
Rms: 3.25 kg/S
Xmax: 18 mm(peak)
Xmech: 27 mm(peak)
Sd: 830 sqcm
Vd: 2.98L (p-p)
Qes: .78
Re: 2.7 ohm
Le: .33 mH
Z: 4 ohm
Bl: 8.75 T/m
Pe: 500W (cont.)
Qts: .7
1WSPL: 85.63 dB
2.83V: 90.35 dB


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> You guys are convincing me
> Will these woofers work well with ARC SE2300 amp? They are 8ohm so the power requirement would be higher no? I really don't want to buy another amp if I can help it.
> I already ordered the miniDSP 2X4 along with advanced plugin, for the front stage, but you're saying I need another one for the subs? The HU will have sub pre-outs as well as EQ, x-over and time alignment (which I was not planning to use since I have the miniDSP) so maybe I'll use the HU to set the eq and x-over for the subs...ah, I guess another 200 bucks for another 2X4 miniDSP will not kill me...


No you dont need a mini dsp for the subs but you also dont need a dual 15s in a camaro.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> You guys have any opinion on the AE subs? They seem to be popular in IB implementations and not too expensive
> 
> *IB15HT 4ohm*
> Fs: 16 Hz
> ...


certainly has good credentials...


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> No you dont need a mini dsp for the subs but you also dont need a dual 15s in a camaro.


LOL, great point.
Weird on the AEs. I can't find anywhere to buy them even if I wanted to...


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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> No you dont need a mini dsp for the subs but you also dont need a dual 15s in a camaro.


He won't have to keep shaking up his Horchata if he does however.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> LOL, great point.
> Weird on the AEs. I can't find anywhere to buy them even if I wanted to...


AE Speakers Online Store
OR
AE Speakers Online Store


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Last I rmemeber, the AE subs were a bandwagon sub. People were waiting forever to get them and there was some aura of quality but I never understood why people thought they were better than other options. 

For IB installs, I still haven't found a better subwoofer than the Peavey Low Rider. 

The Peavey has an even lower moving mass than the Dayton IB sub, while being an 18" instead of a 15". The 15" Low Rider has an even lower moving mass than that. I'm not sure how I feel about that 0.7 Qts. My amplifier allows me to adjust the Q as well. 

The subwoofers don't "fire" into any direction to be honest. At its fundamental level, you have movement of a cone that produces equivalent pressure forward and backward. Whichever way you face them, they'll sound the same. I faced the backs into the cabin because that allows them to be a very compact install, and I prefer seeing the motors over the cones.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I have never seen or heard AE in person and I really don't know anything about them. Their automotive series has a higher sens and lower qts


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Ok, can't get AEs anymore. 
What about this Dayton [h=1]Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm[/h]


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> AE Speakers Online Store
> OR
> AE Speakers Online Store


Aha, cool thank you. I read on a couple of threads that they stopped making/selling them; I guess they're back.
They are not that cheap...more expensive than the Daytons for sure.
Xtreme, I'll take a look at the Peavy Low Rider 15". If you recommend them then that means something. 
18" would be cool , but even 15" is going to be hard to install in the Camaro. The opening under the back deck is small and the seat passthrough even smaller. Some of the woofer will be covered. A 12" fits great, but seems like for IB everyone goes at least 15".


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Last I rmemeber, the AE subs were a bandwagon sub. People were waiting forever to get them and there was some aura of quality but I never understood why people thought they were better than other options.
> 
> For IB installs, I still haven't found a better subwoofer than the Peavey Low Rider.
> 
> ...


Are these the ones you mean? It looks like the QTS is 0.35 and they are also 8ohm. Would these work with my amp?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

swrocket said:


> Are these the ones you mean? It looks like the QTS is 0.35 and they are also 8ohm. Would these work with my amp?


Yeah that's the one. Look at that moving mass. Amazing. 

Wire them down to 4 ohms and you'll be good to go.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Yeah that's the one. Look at that moving mass. Amazing.
> 
> Wire them down to 4 ohms and you'll be good to go.


Looking at the documentation for the speaker, it seems like they don't want you using it in an IB
"...The Low Rider 15” driver works best in vented enclosures between2 and 5 cubic feet (56.6 to 141.6 liters) and vent tunings from 34to 45 Hz. It can also be used in certain single reflex bandpass designs. _*As with the Low Rider18, sealed, infinite baffle, horn,transmission line and dual reflex bandpass enclosures are not recommended.*_"
Should I just ignore this? I know you have the 18" in IB so they work, but why would they recommend against it?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

swrocket said:


> Looking at the documentation for the speaker, it seems like they don't want you using it in an IB
> "...The Low Rider 15” driver works best in vented enclosures between2 and 5 cubic feet (56.6 to 141.6 liters) and vent tunings from 34to 45 Hz. It can also be used in certain single reflex bandpass designs. _*As with the Low Rider18, sealed, infinite baffle, horn,transmission line and dual reflex bandpass enclosures are not recommended.*_"
> Should I just ignore this? I know you have the 18" in IB so they work, but why would they recommend against it?


Probably because it's intended as a pro audio driver and they never advertised it for any other purpose. It works just fine in an IB.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Perfect thanks Xtreme.


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

Man--you guys must not use your trunk, just out listening to my cruze with measly infinite baffle 10" subs--on the rear deck no less and it kicks butt, had Lynard Skinard last rebel playin full volume on a old school legacy amp putting 50 watts RMS into the subs and the STOCK speakers front and back--I know the system is not even in this same league as the stuff your lookin at but sometimes less is better IMO, people do get carried away with the specs and all that is available but I'm sayin it don't take a lot to achieve a pretty high sound pressure in our little cruzes, my setup is out of the ordinary for sure but it sounds tight and right !! and yes the infinite baffle on the rear deck sounds good with no rattles or phase shift that I can perceive, I did stiffen the rear deck and also accommodated the trunk rods to make it happen right


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

KENSTV123 said:


> Man--you guys must not use your trunk, just out listening to my cruze with measly infinite baffle 10" subs--on the rear deck no less and it kicks butt, had Lynard Skinard last rebel playin full volume on a old school legacy amp putting 50 watts RMS into the subs and the STOCK speakers front and back--I know the system is not even in this same league as the stuff your lookin at but sometimes less is better IMO, people do get carried away with the specs and all that is available but I'm sayin it don't take a lot to achieve a pretty high sound pressure in our little cruzes, my setup is out of the ordinary for sure but it sounds tight and right !! and yes the infinite baffle on the rear deck sounds good with no rattles or phase shift that I can perceive, I did stiffen the rear deck and also accommodated the trunk rods to make it happen right


 there's nothing wrong with either set up which 10 are you running?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Dude, after finally tuning in my low riders I couldn't imagine going with anything else, the 15 have got to sound awesome. There are tons of options out there. Just about everything that we have discussed here are very sweet options. I have not beend disappointed with my black widows at all. My final answer on what you should do is the black widows duAL 15. It's a secret weapon of epic proportion.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

The black widow come in 4ohm as well right? PE doesn't carry black widow that I could see...are the regular low riders better or worse than the black widow?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

swrocket said:


> The black widow come in 4ohm as well right? PE doesn't carry black widow that I could see...are the regular low riders better or worse than the black widow?


They are the same subwoofer. Peavey used to call them Black Widow and still use the spider logo on the packaging.


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> there's nothing wrong with either set up which 10 are you running?


The 10s are old legacy "free air" 200 watt rated and even made in USA, no excursion problems running in infinite baffle and nice and responsive down at low volume, I'm quite happy with my setup and it pumps enough bass that I had to add a rubber piece to the RV mirror ! anything more and you would need earplugs, can't even imagine 12s or 15s in this car but I guess different strokes for different folks---


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

KENSTV123 said:


> The 10s are old legacy "free air" 200 watt rated and even made in USA, no excursion problems running in infinite baffle and nice and responsive down at low volume, I'm quite happy with my setup and it pumps enough bass that I had to add a rubber piece to the RV mirror ! anything more and you would need earplugs, can't even imagine 12s or 15s in this car but I guess different strokes for different folks---


Here is some pictures incase anybody reading this wants to do a "different" install like mine
And I forgot to get a pic of the grills, I used some 6X9 ones over the stock holes and had to add about 1 1/2" thick foam around the 6X9 openings to fill the gap


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> They are the same subwoofer. Peavey used to call them Black Widow and still use the spider logo on the packaging.


Aha, that explains it 
If I can tun them 1 channel @ 4ohm (the amp supports bridged and mono modes down to 2 ohm) then I can put 1300 watts (published but not measured ) into them. Should be enough.
I'll order them later today. Thanks for your input on this guys.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

KENSTV123 said:


> Here is some pictures incase anybody reading this wants to do a "different" install like mine
> And I forgot to get a pic of the grills, I used some 6X9 ones over the stock holes and had to add about 1 1/2" thick foam around the 6X9 openings to fill the gap


Sweet Im loving the vintage set up. I bet it sounds pretty good


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> Sweet Im loving the vintage set up. I bet it sounds pretty good


OH YEAH--sounds prefect and amazingly the stock speakers take the 50 watts RMS-haven't blown them yet-and believe me I've tried !!
the rear deck ain't bad at all-lots of room and you can see I used a 1/4" thick aluminum plate, with the oak spacer at the back edge it stiffened the crap outta the deck
and as you can see I just let the trunk rods run right through and sealed up the ends with pipe wrap, air tight for sure and not a rattle out of it


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

swrocket said:


> Aha, that explains it
> If I can tun them 1 channel @ 4ohm (the amp supports bridged and mono modes down to 2 ohm) then I can put 1300 watts (published but not measured ) into them. Should be enough.
> I'll order them later today. Thanks for your input on this guys.


Are you planning on doing some sound competition with this system ?


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

KENSTV123 said:


> Are you planning on doing some sound competition with this system ?


No, I don't think I can do a good enough job on the install to compete.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Subs are on their way!


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

The Sub are here. Man they are huge 
Look very nice and not too deep so should have lots of space left for the amps.
Thanks again for the help.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> The Sub are here. Man they are huge
> Look very nice and not too deep so should have lots of space left for the amps.
> Thanks again for the help.


PICS my friend PICS


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> PICS my friend PICS


Here you go. The box you see actually was packed inside another, plain cardboard, box. The ship very well from PE I have to say.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

The 15s look cool I assume they run the same magnets on the 18s judging by scale. I am excited to see your build unfold.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Me too. I still need the HU (not sure but leaning towards AVH-4100NEX) and Scosche GM5201AB which is out of stock in Canada, and hard to find for some reason here. I also need to order the stuff from SDS.
I'll post here when I start.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I am a Pioneer dealer the 4100nex is on super back order in my region. The 4100 is cool, however its not as nice of an sq headunit compared to deh-80prs or the 99


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

I can find the HU, it's the Scosche kit that's scarce, and the ones who have it will not ship to Canada.
If you can get me a reasonable price on both and ship it here I would be happy to buy from you.
I never looked at the ones you mentioned because I wanted bluetooth streaming and apple car play or at least Siri Hands eyes free and all that stuff.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

deh 80 prs have streaming BT no siri control


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

SO I got side tracked with some stuff but I'm back. I have everything but will not end up putting the Low Riders in the Z/28; I'll save them for the Cruze instead. Reason is that the install is too permanent and I'm not willing to drill holes in the car.
So I decided to go with the Bandpass enclosures vented through the rear deck 6X9 holes. Instead of 8" subs I'm going to use 10s. I got the Dayton HF series subs
I need some help in the box design please. Matt at PE recommended .75 cubic feet for the sealed chamber and .55 for the vented (not counting woofer and vent volumes), with a single 3" diameter, 14" long vent. This will provide a passband of 28 to 83 Hz. Can anyone model this, or otherwise comment on it.


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## KENSTV123 (Sep 21, 2014)

You will not be disappointed with those subs, might have to add air shocks to the rear suspension !!

Seriously if you need advice on how to get it done rattle free just ask, trunk rods need some help


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Thanks. I take it you mean the Peavey Low Riders right? I will definitely get some help when the time comes. I have never built an IB setup before.


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