# CNG Cruze?



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

CNG sweet Lil tank in me trunk , ​ :signs065:​ BOOOOOOM ....


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

This is the car I sold to buy my Diesel Cruze. It is a 1999 Holden Commodore 5 speed manual with a 3.8 V6 engine and duel fuel petrol / LPG (Propane}. The petrol tank was 75 liters and the gas tank was 70 liters. I once drove 1400 km (870m) without putting any fuel in and still had fuel left. This trip was with 4 adults and luggage. Unless there have been some developments this conversion isn't suitable for boosted engines.
View attachment 33938
View attachment 33946


----------



## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

brian v said:


> CNG sweet Lil tank in me trunk , ​ :signs065:​ BOOOOOOM ....


GM has sold many bi-fuel cavaliers and 6.0L 2500 Silverado trucks at times over the last 10 years, never heard of one blowing up. The Cavalier had a 6-8gallon equivalent tank between rear wheels in the trunk(similar to this cruze system), the Silverados have the tank mounted in the front of bed in a tool box. 

CNG is great, unlike E85 there is only a couple MPG reduction from regular gas. It also cost $1.50 a gallon where I live so would be great with an 8 gallon equivalent tank, would cost $12 to fill CNG tank and add 200+ miles range. Since $12 usually only buys 4 gallons, using the CNG would be like doubling my MPG(cost wise). 

Aussie might be correct, this may only be available with the 1.8L cruze. Even if thats the case, as cheap as an LS cruze is this kit being available would give me at least one more reason to consider the 1.8L.


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

That is why I love ya Brother . Always thinking And I agree CNG and LNG are a great resource for alternative fuels . and they are cheaper then Petrol .


----------



## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Found another website reporting this, says its for the 1.4L engine. 

Impco Offers Bi-Fuel CNG Cruze for 2014 | Fleets and Fuels.com


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

brian v said:


> That is why I love ya Brother . Always thinking And I agree CNG and LNG are a great resource for alternative fuels . and they are cheaper then Petrol .


Before you get to into CNG, Sydney has a fleet of CNG vehicles (buses) and are phasing them out because of too much downtime. CNG runs at a much higher pressure than LPG and doesn't go as far on a tank. LPG in Australia costs less than 50% of petrol price and goes about 80% distance. CNG is a bit cheaper but only goes about 50% of petrol distance. I suggest you do some research before you commit yourself to CNG.


----------



## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Aussie said:


> Before you get to into CNG, Sydney has a fleet of CNG vehicles (buses) and are phasing them out because of too much downtime. CNG runs at a much higher pressure than LPG and doesn't go as far on a tank. LPG in Australia costs less than 50% of petrol price and goes about 80% distance. CNG is a bit cheaper but only goes about 50% of petrol distance. I suggest you do some research before you commit yourself to CNG.


I don't think the drop is anywhere near that much, with my 2004 cavalier it was EPA rated at 31mpg hwy, with CNG it still got 29mpg EPA highway rating. Sure the range is less with only an 8gallon equivalent tank, but I can go over 250 miles on 8 gallons of gas in my cruze, so 200+ miles with CNG is pretty good at less than half the cost.


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

What is causing to much down time on those buses Aussie ?
Will definitely do research before I jump .


----------



## Patman (May 7, 2011)

brian v said:


> What is causing to much down time on those buses Aussie ?
> Will definitely do research before I jump .


Surely seems like an interesting idea. But what size tank in a car? Take it off your gas grill($20 a tank)? What did the Cavalier use?


----------



## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Patman said:


> Surely seems like an interesting idea. But what size tank in a car? Take it off your gas grill($20 a tank)? What did the Cavalier use?


The Cavaliers I have seen use a 6 Gallon Equivalent tank for CNG. Since this is a pressurized gas though one needs to find a station that has enough PSI at the pump to actually fill the tank. From what I read a few years back allot of the time one can only get a 80% fill. Some great pictures of the Cavalier CNG on this link below. This one has the 2.2ecotec, they also have older ones with the 2.2L OHV engine. This website always has used CNG fleet cars/trucks forsale. The second link is a youtibe video showing a CNG cavalier, there is actually quite a few videos on youtube of them. 
CNG Utah - 2004 Chevrolet Cavalier Bi-Fuel

and

CNG Cavalier - YouTube

The GM cars/trucks are all Bi-fuel(can runs gas or CNG & switch on the fly), the Honda Civic CNG is only CNG. I would only ever buy a bi-fuel if I was looking at CNG. I found a few websites with CNG station info, see below:

CNG Stations | Refueling | Prices | Map

and 

CNG stations and Prices for the US, Canada and Europe


----------



## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Looking into this more it seems this company offers a CNG kit for 2013 & 2014 1.4T cruze, however they do not list anything for the 2011-2012 cars. IMPCO Technologies - Industrial fuel systems


----------



## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

I also noticed the IMPCO post on their website about 6 months ago, but I couldn't find any information of cars that have been retrofitted. 

It appears that the certified retrofit cost is around $10,000 USD. I'd be interested if anyone does this in the Midwest if there's tax incentives. Last I checked there wasn't anything significant. 

Unlike electric technology right now that has a $7,500 tax credit if you quality. 

CNG is just now breaking into Minnesota by Kwik Trip. I only wish it was closer, and right now the payback isn't there for me. 

If anyone finds any federal incentives for CNG conversions please start a thread.


----------



## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

carbon02 said:


> CNG is just now breaking into Minnesota by Kwik Trip. I only wish it was closer, and right now the payback isn't there for me.


I have a kwik trip 14miles from home that just added CNG, so I would have a pretty close source. I have seen aftermarket kits in the $15,000 range, but surprisingly when new the CNG 2004 cavalier was under a $3,000 option if I remember correctly. Seems maybe the high cost can be offset if someone can make them on a larger scale. The 2004 cavalier only 1% of car sold came with the CNG kit. 

I have a feeling GM will only ever offer this in fleet cruze models, simply because the public is not informed about how great CNG really can be(price is less than half gasoline, low emissions & 95% of the MPG). There is no demand for CNG cars/trucks when the infrastructure is pretty crappy & the general public has no clue.


----------



## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Spacedout-

On the other thread that I started several months ago, a car dealership in Utah was mentioned. They had pictures of the factory window stickers for those cavaliers. Even back in 2002-2004 it was something like a $7,000 option. I think it really makes sense in states like Oklahoma, where CNG can be found pressurized ready to go under $1.00 per gallon. 

The other option is to use a Phill (it's the CNG device that you connect to your low pressure resedential line to fill a car. That's like $5,000. CNG has to catch on in the truck world, where there's more fuel usage, and then dribble into automobiles as more filling stations are created. The Kwik trip 50 miles from me is selling CNG for $1.79 per gallon. Even at a savings of $2.00 per gallon it takes a long time to calculate the payback.


----------



## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

I would only save like $1000 a year using CNG, so if it was $7,000 I would have to drive 7 years to break even. That's about the same break even point of buying a diesel car or truck when one drives a normal amount of mileage per year. 

The CNG cavalier I could have bought from the chevy dealer was only about $3,000 more than normal with all the rebates and incentives GM was offering at the time, never knew it was actually $7,000 or I would have bought it. 

If I was going to buy a CNG vehicle I would choose a truck, since CNG it gets about the same MPG but cost half as much as gasoline, that's the same thing as going from a 12mpg truck to a 24mpg truck. Heck even some of those used trucks on the utahCNG website start looking nice when I think about that.


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

brian v said:


> What is causing to much down time on those buses Aussie ?
> Will definitely do research before I jump .


Did a search on Google and found this.

Exploding gas bus sparks safety dispute as union ordered back to work


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

My Commodore used LPG which is a much lower pressure fuel than CNG. That 80% fill someone mentioned is standard to allow for expansion in warmer weather and is not counted in the tank capacity, and the pump automatically shuts off when tank is full. The prices I have seen mentioned seem rather steep. The tank in my picture holds 70 liters of gas, (18.4 gallons) and on the freeway i ran it till the engine started to die and got 604km (375 miles). The conversion cost $2400.00 and I got a $2000.00 rebate from the government so out of pocket was $400.00. Nearly all taxi.s in Australia run on straight LPG and have very few problems, no more than petrol cars. I had the conversion done 5 years before I sold the car and it cost less on fuel than my Cruze diesel.


----------



## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Aussie-

Yea LPG is pretty expensive in the US. I just filled the tanks on the BBQ for cooking and paid $2.19 per gallon. This was at a farm supply store where LPG is cheap because it's used on the farm. Other locations were $3.89 per LPG equivalant. Petrol is only $3.69 for the cheap US 87 octane, so it's not popular. 

One problem with LPG in the Northern US is vapor pressure. Due to the cold temperatures in the Midwest -20C in winter, you can have problems starting propane engines. Most are bi-fuel, using gas to start when cold, and then converting to LPG.

The US has a lot of natural gas, a lot more than LPG, the problem becomes the fueling infrastructure is so spread out. It's great if you live in a state that has tax rebates for CNG, but heaven forbid you travel out of that area with a car that can't take petrol.

Electric is everywhere, but that has it's own challenges, that we won't get into. 

I'd like to see more CNG, LPG in my area vs. Ethanol. Ethanol on a equal basis is just as expensive as gasoline in my area. Ethanol also takes a lot of energy to refine. Where CNG and LPG are byproducts of the petroleum industry.


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

For some reason when you buy LPG for household heating etc it is really expensive about 3 times what you pay for LPG when you fill up at the service station directly into your car. Most service stations have at least one LPG pump and one or more diesel pumps. Cars with LPG also have to have a red diamond on both front and rear number plates with LPG written on them. My Commodore had a system where it always started on petrol and when set to LPG it automatically changed over with the first rev up of the engine.

View attachment 34409


----------



## grs1961 (Oct 23, 2012)

carbon02 said:


> ...
> The US has a lot of natural gas, a lot more than LPG, ...


In Australia, when we say "LPG" we really mean "Liquefied Natural Gas", i.e. LNG - we've got an awful lot of it under our continental shelf.

Of course, every region has slightly different - I don't quite know how to say this, but - "types" of oil and and gas. Frex, the oil that comes out from under the Timor Sea and Indonesia can be used without refining in an old-style industrial Diesel engine, where the oil that comes out from under Bass Strait has to be refined a fair bit to be fit to use.

So, sometimes potatoes really are yams!


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

grs1961 said:


> In Australia, when we say "LPG" we really mean "Liquefied Natural Gas", i.e. LNG - we've got an awful lot of it under our continental shelf.
> 
> Of course, every region has slightly different - I don't quite know how to say this, but - "types" of oil and and gas. Frex, the oil that comes out from under the Timor Sea and Indonesia can be used without refining in an old-style industrial Diesel engine, where the oil that comes out from under Bass Strait has to be refined a fair bit to be fit to use.
> 
> So, sometimes potatoes really are yams!


Sorry grs1961 but you are mistaken, my VT Commodore duel fuel ran on petrol or LPG which is a by product of refining petrol, CNG is natural gas that has been compressed and is in a container that is under a much higher pressure than LPG. Most taxi's use LPG which is also known as propane. LPG stands for Liquified Petroleum Gas.


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

spacedout said:


> Found another website reporting this, says its for the 1.4L engine.
> 
> Impco Offers Bi-Fuel CNG Cruze for 2014 | Fleets and Fuels.com


The ability to use the fold down seats will be no more with this. Going by this article you will get about 25mpg from CNG in the Cruze.


----------



## grs1961 (Oct 23, 2012)

Aussie said:


> Sorry grs1961 but you are mistaken, my VT Commodore duel fuel ran on petrol or LPG which is a by product of refining petrol, CNG is natural gas that has been compressed and is in a container that is under a much higher pressure than LPG. Most taxi's use LPG which is also known as propane. LPG stands for Liquified Petroleum Gas.


Hmm, I must be wrong, but I thought the tankers (gas, as opposed to petroleum, they come from Altona, the other side) coming up from Gippsland and feeding the stations were carrying gas straight from the pipeline. I'll have to look closely the next time I see one.


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

grs1961 said:


> Hmm, I must be wrong, but I thought the tankers (gas, as opposed to petroleum, they come from Altona, the other side) coming up from Gippsland and feeding the stations were carrying gas straight from the pipeline. I'll have to look closely the next time I see one.


If the Service Stations used natural gas I would expect them to hook up to town piped gas? Most reasonable sized towns have gas straight to the house, my stove and heater use this type of natural gas and I get billed quartly. When I bought a new heater AGL asked me weather I had natural gas or LPG as the heaters are different.


----------



## grs1961 (Oct 23, 2012)

Aussie said:


> If the Service Stations used natural gas I would expect them to hook up to town piped gas? Most reasonable sized towns have gas straight to the house, my stove and heater use this type of natural gas and I get billed quartly. When I bought a new heater AGL asked me weather I had natural gas or LPG as the heaters are different.


Well, the gas in the pipes is nowhere near the pressure needed to liquefy, so you would need some (presumably) hefty compressors at the station to do it - I can't see that happening!


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

grs1961 said:


> Well, the gas in the pipes is nowhere near the pressure needed to liquefy, so you would need some (presumably) hefty compressors at the station to do it - I can't see that happening!


I think the high pressure needed for CNG is the reason LPG is the preferred fuel for Taxi's and both Ford and Holden offer LPG only powered vehicles. Wonder what will replace the Falcon as preferred car by Taxis after 2016?


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

You guys have a Falcon ? shoot that disappeared from here a long time ago at least decades since I 've seen one . 

How about LNG you have to know of some of this extremely cold stuff ?


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

brian v said:


> You guys have a Falcon ? shoot that disappeared from here a long time ago at least decades since I 've seen one .
> 
> How about LNG you have to know of some of this extremely cold stuff ?


This is the Falcon XR6 inline 6, 4 liter turbo, Ford's rival to the Commodore.

View attachment 34618


----------



## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

So I contacted a conversion company in Madison, WI inquiring on the conversion cost for this. I was suprised that their website had this Cruze conversion kit allready loaded on it! I'll post back if I get anything in response.


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Aussie said:


> This is the Falcon XR6 inline 6, 4 liter turbo, Ford's rival to the Commodore.
> 
> View attachment 34618


5 

A good buddy of mine from back in my youth days had one . It had push buttons to change the gears on the trans and a bad spark plug , so it would che che che che down the street .


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

brian v said:


> 5
> 
> A good buddy of mine from back in my youth days had one . It had push buttons to change the gears on the trans and a bad spark plug , so it would che che che che down the street .


The one in the picture has a 4liter straight six twin cams and is turbocharged. It is as quick as the Holden SSV Redline and is pulling away at the end of the quarter mile. I still prefer the Holden though, brand loyalty I suppose as both are very good RWD cars. The cops love both of them for pursuit vehicles.


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

View attachment 34946
This is what we had back in the day . there might be a few still around .


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

brian v said:


> View attachment 34946
> This is what we had back in the day . there might be a few still around .


My dad had one of those only 4 door. In Australia that was a 1963 model and Ford Australia had to put a pair of braces from the top of the firewall to the inner front guards to stop the front from bending up in country cars. Later Falcons were built much stronger to cope with our outback roads. The current inline 6 engine is an evolution of this original engine, although nothing is interchangeable between them. The head is now a twin cam alloy and the performance model has the option of a turbo. FPV the copy of HSV have a supercharged V8 option taken from the Mustang as well as a more powerful turbo 6 model.


----------

