# Your aftermarket intake sucks, part 2.



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Going to bring this back up because I love telling people I told you so. Recent thread I was notified of on SOF...
Brian @ VT is bashing us and our intake. - Chevy Sonic Owners Forum

...and here is when I told everyone there was an issue:
http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/10-powertrain/34929-your-aftermarket-intake-sucks.html

You all remember that? The home depot window screen hack to filter the air moving across the MAF until we figure out a better solution? The part where I got banned from SOF for "arguing with members" in that same thread on SOF? You all remember Terry Collins﻿ reporting more consistent AFR readings on his gauge? Vincent Faltis﻿ reporting a smoother power band and a much more "driveable" car? 

One of the Sonic-only intake manufacturer's (I won't name who) guys talked to me over Facebook a few months back when I told him his intake needs an air straightener and K&N filters suck. I'm not talking some piece of crap window screen; that's just a bandaid. I'm talking something like this:

HoneyComb MAF Mass Air Meter Airflow Straightener- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE

I was told that they (who shall remain nameless) are using a K&N filter because all of the dry filters would cause too much turbulence and would skew the MAF readings. To anyone trying to design an intake out there: if your intake causes turbulence with a dry filter and you feel you are forced to use a K&N filter just to get decent fuel trims, your intake sucks. An intake design should not revolve around one filter that has been proven to pass ten times more dirt than the OE filter. Here's a novel idea: spend the extra $30 and put a proper air straightener in there so your customers have the option to use a filter that actually...well...filters.

Competition is coming from TRE very soon in the form of a properly designed intake that I can assure you vtuner will have no problems tuning. Quit acting like it's vtuner's fault that these intakes are crap. I know we all love Trifecta but let's call a duck a duck; this was not vtuner's fault. 

There. Now MPFab can update their thread and say "vtuner and XtremeRevolution are bashing us and our intake."


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## Dragonsys (May 27, 2013)

The sad part is they are taking it as a personal attack, when it is really more about all aftermarket intakes for these cars, not theirs specifically.
I'll have to keep a watch out for the "competition coming soon"


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## mikeeitup (Aug 27, 2013)

So tldr if I have an injen intake and wanna improve it I should get one of those honeycomb air straighteners?

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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

mikeeitup said:


> So tldr if I have an injen intake and wanna improve it I should get one of those honeycomb air straighteners?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


In short, yes.


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## AlcoholicPolak (Dec 28, 2013)

What/who is TRE?


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

AlcoholicPolak said:


> What/who is TRE?


Treadstone Performance. during the previous topic I looked into this company and seen they made an intake for the cobalt SS with an air straighter installed. 

BTW I'm really glad some after market company sees the importance of this, I may even get an aftermarket intake if they make one.


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## Toyotech (Aug 17, 2012)

cork sport has been doing the same thing for mazda for years. worked quite well On my turbo cx-7.

I myself stayed away from the intake even after using the honeycomb. which was done before most on this forum and I think I even linked what I had previously used. It did make a difference but In my eyes the Intake was no where near worth it over a modified airbox with k&n.

edit: that is the exact one I purchased and actually got it from them. I did a 2.75" pipe with vibrant bend and hardware with universal maf adapter using there 3" straightener trimmed down with a knife to fit. If I remember right I drove for a few days with it while watching live data and my long term/short term fuel trim never exceeded 12% (this was a year and a half ago when we were talking about this). Not the greatest but no where near an issue for even a lean code. 

keep it up xtreme


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## Erastimus (Feb 9, 2012)

In the long running "3rd gear shudder" thread, I recently wrote a post that basically said "I told you so." That being, I told the complainer to take the automatic Cruze back to the dealer and demand a swap to a manual shift vehicle back several months ago. That is what I did almost a year ago after suffering the same many problems and thus "I told you so." It appears that you "moderated out" this post, but with all due respect, I may have forgotten to hit Post Quick Reply. But, if you did moderate out my post (which included my mantra - the automatic in the Cruze is a piece of crap), then I find it a bit ironic that you love telling people "I told you so." Just curious - did you moderate out my post on the 3rd gear shudder thread or did I forget to hit Post Quick Reply?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Erastimus said:


> In the long running "3rd gear shudder" thread, I recently wrote a post that basically said "I told you so." That being, I told the complainer to take the automatic Cruze back to the dealer and demand a swap to a manual shift vehicle back several months ago. That is what I did almost a year ago after suffering the same many problems and thus "I told you so." It appears that you "moderated out" this post, but with all due respect, I may have forgotten to hit Post Quick Reply. But, if you did moderate out my post (which included my mantra - the automatic in the Cruze is a piece of crap), then I find it a bit ironic that you love telling people "I told you so." Just curious - did you moderate out my post on the 3rd gear shudder thread or did I forget to hit Post Quick Reply?


Are you aware that there are ~10 moderators on this forum that have the ability to delete posts?

Your post does not ring a bell.

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## ehousel (Nov 1, 2013)

if i buy an air straightner like suggested and likely needed since many stock intakes come with some variation. THis needs to be placed before the maf right? and how would you attach it? would u use something like jb weld?


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## Toyotech (Aug 17, 2012)

ehousel said:


> if i buy an air straightner like suggested and likely needed since many stock intakes come with some variation. THis needs to be placed before the maf right? and how would you attach it? would u use something like jb weld?


To hold it you really don't need anything as long as its trimmed right. I couldn't even pull it out once inserted. 

This is the maf housing set-up I loved. Cork sport was some great quaility Short Ram Intake -CORKSPORT


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## ehousel (Nov 1, 2013)

im gonna say the worst part about those honey combs is they dont offer a size that would work for the k&n short ram intake =[


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## ehousel (Nov 1, 2013)

AEM Air-Straightener Mazdaspeed3 07-13 9-21070 at gotboostinc.com
If it is even the correct size it might only work for the denso style maf in mazdas not our gm ones. very cheap though


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

Another issue with these intakes is the cost. Not worth 5HP and .25 MPG gain IMO. Unless someone figures out a better system with more gains and less cost then hats out there. hint hint


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## ehousel (Nov 1, 2013)

sorry to blow this thread up too but i am very interested in the matter. According to a few websites i have visited the thickness of the honey come you decide to use plays a factor into how the air flows. so you can actually mess this up more than you fix has any one seen the stock one? my vw had like 1/2 in squares cut out in the intake pre maf.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ehousel said:


> sorry to blow this thread up too but i am very interested in the matter. According to a few websites i have visited the thickness of the honey come you decide to use plays a factor into how the air flows. so you can actually mess this up more than you fix has any one seen the stock one? my vw had like 1/2 in squares cut out in the intake pre maf.


This is not necessary with the stock intake. The stock intake is also designed differently than the aftermarket ones and does not need to be touched, hence the thread title referring to aftermarket intakes. 

An air straightener is necessary on aftermarket intakes. There's no doubt about that. Too many problems exist with other intakes that don't have them. You will not mess up an already turbulent airflow on an aftermarket intake by installing a straightener. That much, I can guarantee you.


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## ehousel (Nov 1, 2013)

i have a k&n one and it looks like the inside diameter of the pipe is 2.75ish i was just wondering if there is something like the honeycomb in the stock intake ive seen previous gm models have used it as one piece with the maf housing and separate from the rubber snorkel to airbox


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I never saw any of these threads before. I already have my honeycomb in. I think its funny how you try to help people and they take offense to it instead of work on resolving the issue. To me that shows weakness. I agree totally with Brian, I feel bad for him because it sounds like they trying to rally up a sonic witch hunt.


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## prince_bigd (Jul 16, 2013)

Im going to add my two cents to this. Ive posted on here a bit about the different filter types and intakes. Im currently running a K&N SRI with a AFE Pro Dry S synthetic filter and a trimmed piece of screening that wedges perfectly between the tube mounting point and heatshield. I am trifecta tuned and have Titans datalog reader. I have tested back to back datalogs of runs to confirm my suspicions. Without the screening both filters sufferered from surging and fuel trim issues especially down low. With the screening and the K&N i noticed a smoother MAF voltage curve and better throttle response down low, the AFE improved upon that both by seat of the pants and by datalog info. I am unfortunately still waiting on an update from Vince for my Catless DP/MP so I may not be perfectly dialed in. However the difference in maf voltage and airflow readings were consistent. I will note that for some reason the K&N suffered from worse fuel economy versus the AFE, and that the AFE Im using is roughly twice as large as the K&N filter.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

prince_bigd said:


> I have tested back to back datalogs of runs to confirm my suspicions. Without the screening both filters sufferered from surging and fuel trim issues especially down low. With the screening and the K&N i noticed a smoother MAF voltage curve and better throttle response down low.



10+ years ago I removed the honey comb metal in front of the MAF on a previous car to help improve airflow. Sure at wide open throttle the car did feel a bit more powerful, however off the line takeoff was worse and rolling up to stop signs and idling the car was best described as surging. 

Learned real quick what that was in place for, so it makes me wonder why all these aftermarket intake makers with all their testing could not see the benefit of installing some form of screen, bars, ect to help smooth out air flow. My guess they are looking for the highest dyno gain at wide open throttle and forgetting most people also drive at low RPM too.


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## sx sonic (Nov 25, 2013)

Are you talking about the intake for the Sonic that has a velocity stack to speed up and straighten airflow and a dry flow filter (NOT K&N)!? 

The one that Vince gave an "all's well" to after getting a datalog of this intake?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

sx sonic said:


> Are you talking about the intake for the Sonic that has a velocity stack to speed up and straighten airflow and a dry flow filter (NOT K&N)!?
> 
> The one that Vince gave an "all's well" to after getting a datalog of this intake?


I haven't used it, so maybe. Not sure. 

Velocity stacks don't straighten airflow. They reduce turbulence on the very edges of the intake tube. Same concept is in use in "aero ports" in subwoofer enclosures. It allows the air to flow into the intake more evenly. However, due to the presence of bends in the air stream, an air straightener is still needed. 

Vince doesn't tune the same way that Brian does. Obviously I support Vince and his tunes, but if Brian can tune the stock intake and can't tune this intake, the issue is not with his tuning; it's with the intake. Brian may be many things but technically challenged certainly does not appear to be among them. 

I will note as a previous member did that it does not benefit us as enthusiasts to defend a flawed product. There is no need to come to anyone's rescue. Just because it works, doesn't mean it was designed well. This VTuner witch hunt going on over on SOF reinforces everything that was said about that forum over in the VIP section.

I would think very carefully about what just happened here. It was a *vendor *that came to SOF to trash another *vendor*. Did Brian of VTuner make a post on SOF saying that their intake is crap and that everyone should avoid it? Last I recall, it was a private exchange. Sounds to me like the guys selling the intake were butthurt that VTuner thought it was too difficult or impossible to tune. Consider also that VTuner stands to gain nothing by turning away business. Frankly, I find it very distasteful for the intake manufacturer to publicly bash another vendor, and am pretty disappointed but not all that surprised that the SOF forum hasn't noticed what they are doing and how unprofessional it is.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

Too be honest I think k&n has a good group of engineers. They just need to get their heads out of their arse in terms of an oiled filter. I really like the design of their intake and with the replacement injen filter you found, I don't see how you can get better.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> Too be honest I think k&n has a good group of engineers. They just need to get their heads out of their arse in terms of an oiled filter. I really like the design of their intake and with the replacement injen filter you found, I don't see how you can get better.


An air straightener in said intake. That's how you can get better.

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## sx sonic (Nov 25, 2013)

All I'm going to say at the moment is that I think this thread and the bashing is very tactless (not that I agree with what started it).

Then to get several facts about the intake your bashing wrong is unacceptable. You know better!

I've no stake in this horse race but must object to such vehement and unresearched hate.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

sx sonic said:


> All I'm going to say at the moment is that I think this thread and the bashing is very tactless (not that I agree with what started it).
> 
> Then to get several facts about the intake your bashing wrong is unacceptable. You know better!
> 
> I've no stake in this horse race but must object to such vehement and unresearched hate.


I would have appreciated a response to all of the points I made, not ignoring them and continuing on your previous path. I can certainly tell you were annoyed through the blatant sarcasm in your initial post but decided to ignore it since we are all VIP members after all.

What MPFab did was tasteless, and my initial post was more than generous. They aired their dirty laundry on SOF for all to see. It was one vendor bashing another. THAT is entirely unprofessional. Furthermore, they made a statement that Brian's tune will only play well with the stock intake, which is false. I have personally spoken to people with aftermarket intakes that are tuned by vtuner successfully. 

Now I will tell you why I was so harsh in my statement in the original post. I am frankly sick and tired of companies developing intakes that skimp on one of the most critical components of an intake just to save a few bucks. It is pathetic. For an intake that will run you no less than $250, you would expect better. I don't care how many dyno runs he made to develop that intake, it is *not *Brian's job to teach them the importance of even airflow across the MAF sensor. All of the options for the Cruze lack any form of air straightener, and I have for quite some time insisted that this is absolutely critical for accurate fuel trim calculations. Brian appears to be as sick as I am of these development practices.

I will admit that I am not an engineer, but one thing I do know perfectly well is that a velocity stack, whether with a dry or a wet gauze filter, will not provide as accurate of a MAF sensor reading as if an air straightener was present. I've had representatives of those companies try to argue that the LTFTs were even over the long term and that the PCM is capable of adjusting fueling, but the bottom line is that the airflow is nowhere close to stock and the manufacturer of a $250 intake should not be trying to skimp on a $20 air straightener. 

Yeah I know better. I should have done the research, that's true. What is also true is that it doesn't make any difference what my facts about the exact filter used on the intake were. MPFab posted a direct and blatant attack on VTuner on a public form, for an issue that they should have acknowledge by now is a direct result of their design decisions. I can go into more length explaining just why a simple velocity stack is no replacement for a proper air straightener, but it will be to no use. 

TRE has completed development of the flange and adapter tube required for our MAF sensor and have begun development of an intake for the Cruze. The Sonic is next. I will be recommending this intake on all of the forums I am a member of because, for the first time, we will have an intake that is designed by a company that understands just how critical and sensitive the MAF sensor calculations are. 

I will repeat what I said before just to drive this point home. If VTuner has a problem tuning this intake, it is the fault of the intake, not the tuner. If the intake varies from the design intent of the OEM intake by such a severe amount, it is entirely the fault of the company that designed that intake. I will not waste my time trying to explain to unwilling companies why these design aspects are important to pay very close attention and why a WOT dyno run is not going to suffice as a testing platform.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Do people read the post before they comment? Why are people mad about this? Its a $20 air straightener if you have an intake go buy it. As far as the difference between Brian and Vince, Vince has his own software he personally developed and brian is using a software he purchased. So he may not be able to make the same adjustments that Vince can or it might be that Brian wants to do it the correct way and Vince just compensates for the problem. 

None of this makes any sense why people are taking offense to this, especially when there is testimonials in this thread about how it works.

So here I type totally confused about silly post that fill this.


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## Calintz (Jul 21, 2011)

Hey Guys I just found this on ebay it should fit our Injen and K&N intakes. What do you think Anderi? Will it fit?

2 75" 70mm OD x 5" Air Straightener Screen 25" 6 35mm Open Cell | eBay


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Calintz said:


> Hey Guys I just found this on ebay it should fit our Injen and K&N intakes. What do you think Anderi? Will it fit?
> 
> 2 75" 70mm OD x 5" Air Straightener Screen 25" 6 35mm Open Cell | eBay


That looks like it would be worth a try. I'd order one right now if it wasn't for the TRE intake that's coming.

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## Calintz (Jul 21, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> That looks like it would be worth a try. I'd order one right now if it wasn't for the TRE intake that's coming.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


Sounds good I'll take a shot at it. Hey Anderi is the TRE intake only made for the 1.4T? If so I'll just get the air straighter then.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

TRE INTAKE what is that?


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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

It would be nice if the Cruze Diesel could get some love. I would swoop an aftermarket intake up in a second if it were offered. I'm waiting TRE...take my money


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## Toyotech (Aug 17, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> TRE INTAKE what is that?


Treadstone Performance Inc, Turbo Kits, Intercoolers, Turbo manifolds, Silicone hose


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## snowvette (Oct 9, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Do people read the post before they comment? Why are people mad about this? Its a $20 air straightener if you have an intake go buy it. As far as the difference between Brian and Vince, Vince has his own software he personally developed and brian is using a software he purchased. So he may not be able to make the same adjustments that Vince can or it might be that Brian wants to do it the correct way and Vince just compensates for the problem.
> 
> None of this makes any sense why people are taking offense to this, especially when there is testimonials in this thread about how it works.
> 
> So here I type totally confused about silly post that fill this.


Brian CAN correct it with his purchased software. Any tuning software could correct it. Just saying.


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## Calintz (Jul 21, 2011)

Just bought the air straightener from ebay. It should arrive on Monday I will keep you posted.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

snowvette said:


> Brian CAN correct it with his purchased software. Any tuning software could correct it. Just saying.


I am not pretending to know how to tune, but my question for you is how do you tune for an erratic variance that has no consistency which is completely random. Its chaos if you can figure out an algorithm for chaos theory than you have proved that chaos theory is fact and your the best mathematician to be born since Euler. 

Unless I am totally missing the picture, which is DEFINITELY possible.


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## Schnurd (Nov 2, 2013)

So I get this whole air straightener thing and the MAF getting odd readings, most likely cause it's so close to the intake inlet & filter....BUT I have the Injen intake setup in SRI mode. When I switch it to full cold air don't you think that would help with most of the turbulence problems with the MAF since the air had a ways to go before it hits it? 

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## snowvette (Oct 9, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I am not pretending to know how to tune, but my question for you is how do you tune for an erratic variance that has no consistency which is completely random. Its chaos if you can figure out an algorithm for chaos theory than you have proved that chaos theory is fact and your the best mathematician to be born since Euler.
> 
> Unless I am totally missing the picture, which is DEFINITELY possible.


I'm only stating he can probably adjust as many things as Trifecta with Hptuners or EFIlive or pretty close.


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## sx sonic (Nov 25, 2013)

hificruzer226 said:


> I am not pretending to know how to tune, but my question for you is how do you tune for an erratic variance that has no consistency which is completely random. Its chaos if you can figure out an algorithm for chaos theory than you have proved that chaos theory is fact and your the best mathematician to be born since Euler.
> 
> Unless I am totally missing the picture, which is DEFINITELY possible.



If the intakes were that far off there would be nothing in the world that would adequately fix it short of a complete redesign. There are many more considerations for MAF placement and intake designs beyond turbulence, which in and of itself is a big consideration.


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## SunnyinHollister (Mar 17, 2011)

The Cruze is not the first vehicle to have this problem where the aftermarket intake causes turbulence across the MAF resulting in poor fuel trims. I don't know why the members over at SOF have their panties in a wad over it. Also the K&N filter does suck when it comes to filtration. That's why it is so less restrictive. it's not rocket science.


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## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

hificruzer226 said:


> I am not pretending to know how to tune, but my question for you is how do you tune for an erratic variance that has no consistency which is completely random. Its chaos if you can figure out an algorithm for chaos theory than you have proved that chaos theory is fact and your the best mathematician to be born since Euler.
> 
> Unless I am totally missing the picture, which is DEFINITELY possible.


Ok this is probably the biggest misconception on this thread. Turbulence is not completely random, erratic or inconstant. Air is entering the system relatively the same each time, unless the filer is exposed to the elements where you have to factor in the effects of strong cross winds. Filter is in a fixed location with a fixed size and shape, pipe is a fixed diameter, shape and length. MAF is in a fixed location. Turbulence will be within a small window of variance and air running over the MAF due this turbulence will be consistent enough to tune. There may be conditions where the tune is not optimal, but it can be tuned.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

snowvette said:


> Brian CAN correct it with his purchased software. Any tuning software could correct it. Just saying.


Then why did Brian specifically say that he can't?



Schnurd said:


> So I get this whole air straightener thing and the MAF getting odd readings, most likely cause it's so close to the intake inlet & filter....BUT I have the Injen intake setup in SRI mode. When I switch it to full cold air don't you think that would help with most of the turbulence problems with the MAF since the air had a ways to go before it hits it?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


It isn't just because it's so close to the intake inlet and filter. That is only a small portion of it. In fact, the Injen intake in CAI mode is probably the worst for fuel trim calculations. The more bends you have, the worse it will get. 



snowvette said:


> I'm only stating he can probably adjust as many things as Trifecta with Hptuners or EFIlive or pretty close.


I'm telling you he can't because Trifecta uses their own software and Brian uses EFILive IIRC. The difference is that Trifecta actually flashes their own operating system to the car's PCM. That is an enormous difference in tuning ability.



sx sonic said:


> If the intakes were that far off there would be nothing in the world that would adequately fix it short of a complete redesign. There are many more considerations for MAF placement and intake designs beyond turbulence, which in and of itself is a big consideration.


They don't have to be "that far off." All they have to be is turbulent, and all you have to do to fix it is to _effectively _eliminate that turbulence. A great deal of that will be achieved through a $20 air straightener. 



Quazar said:


> Ok this is probably the biggest misconception on this thread. Turbulence is not completely random, erratic or inconstant. Air is entering the system relatively the same each time, unless the filer is exposed to the elements where you have to factor in the effects of strong cross winds. Filter is in a fixed location with a fixed size and shape, pipe is a fixed diameter, shape and length. MAF is in a fixed location. Turbulence will be within a small window of variance and air running over the MAF due this turbulence will be consistent enough to tune. There may be conditions where the tune is not optimal, but it can be tuned.


Have you actually tuned before? I have, and I can tell you that you are entirely incorrect. That variance is not constant, by their very definition. You think the air is entering the system the same each time, but then you omit what happens as the filter becomes dirtier (which is never evenly) or when the air temperature changes which alters the density of the air. It isn't as simple as you think. It cannot be tuned. Your fuel trims WILL be off. At least this much has already been *proven *already by members who have installed the temporary window screen hack and reported far smoother part throttle acceleration. Vincent Faltis noted the car is *far *more manageable during his daily commute than before, which is no coincidence as I specifically noted that as a benefit prior to him installing it. 

If you have a tune that runs off of manifold pressure and ignores MAF readings with the exception of temperature, you can "tune" these intakes just fine, but it's not the best way to do it.


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## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

I have not tuned cars. The engineering firm I worked for did testing on dozens of flow sensors for both air and fluid and built wind tunnels of various sizes for testing to introduce various conditions. 

I don't disagree that there is turbulence, I disagree with the perception that the turbulence does not have a pattern, a repeatable pattern.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Quazar said:


> I have not tuned cars. The engineering firm I worked for did testing on dozens of flow sensors for both air and fluid and built wind tunnels of various sizes for testing to introduce various conditions.
> 
> I don't disagree that there is turbulence, I disagree with the perception that the turbulence does not have a pattern, a repeatable pattern.


The pattern is only repeatable so long as you keep all conditions constant. Those conditions do not remain constant even for 5 minutes during the warm-up cycle of the engine. Temperature will affect those conditions and add another variable not accounted for. Not intending to be rude, I want to make it clear that these variances cannot be tuned for. You cannot tune your engine to expect turbulence. The MAF sensor sends a voltage reading to the PCM, and that's all the PCM knows about. It assumes that the air passing the MAF sensor is as even as it is with the stock intake, where an air straightener is present.


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## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

I do agree that the straighter does improve and make it easier to tune. I don't agree it cant be tuned at all.

Finally, you wrote your first article in later 2013. 2.5 years after people for the Cruze were purchasing after market intakes and Vince was tuning them. I was on the forum a ton the first year and no one, not even Vince made a bit issue about this. I emailed him about several issues with tuning in regards to modifications and he never brought this up.

For such a huge issue, that has been know about for a CENTURY, since wind tunnels were first designed. It doesn't seem like tuners were overly concerned with their ability to tune without a straighter, especially on this forum.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Quazar said:


> I do agree that the straighter does improve and make it easier to tune. I don't agree it cant be tuned at all.
> 
> Finally, you wrote your first article in later 2013. 2.5 years after people for the Cruze were purchasing after market intakes and Vince was tuning them. I was on the forum a ton the first year and no one, not even Vince made a bit issue about this. I emailed him about several issues with tuning in regards to modifications and he never brought this up.
> 
> For such a huge issue, that has been know about for a CENTURY, since wind tunnels were first designed. It doesn't seem like tuners were overly concerned with their ability to tune without a straighter, especially on this forum.


The initial post of this thread demonstrates the existence of an intake that Brian of VTuner cannot tune due to issues related to turbulence. 

Vince of Trifecta tunes cars differently than he does and can get around the deficiencies of our intakes. HOWEVER, Andrew Smorey specifically sold his Injen intake because Vince could not tune out the bugs. Note: *it could not be tuned*. Again, the Injen intake, by Vince of Trifecta, could not be tuned to work out the kinks in his car. He bought a K&N intake instead, which helped. This is intake #2 that could not be tuned. 

Stock, the cars can adjust the fueling to prevent throwing a CEL if you pull the battery before installing some of these intakes. This is not the case with the ZZP and Injen intake. The ZZP intake leans out the fuel mixture because the stock tune cannot compensate for the calibration change, and the Injen intake, well, that's probably the most problematic of all of the intakes available for the Cruze. 

Just because it works, doesn't mean it can be tuned to work well. I refuse to drop $250+ on an intake so I can get pathetically wild fuel trims. Perhaps there is a disagreement or misunderstanding in what the definition of "can be tuned" means. I have tuned with HPTuners in the past and dialing in the MAF sensor calibration is one major important area. If that MAF sensor cannot be calibrated within 1-2% variation, you have a problem with the intake. It would appear that you believe that an intake has been tuned if it does not throw a CEL and if the car runs without any obvious abnormalities. I believe an intake has been tuned when short term fuel trims are consistently within 1-2% variation under all airflow rates. With some of these intakes, that is impossible.

I will not accept that a MAP-based tune or a tune that ignores MAF sensor readings is an acceptable substitute for a poorly designed intake. It is a bandaid, and the only reason it is available is because for some reason, enthusiasts by and large flock to spend $200-$300 on an aluminum pipe and a cone filter hoping for that amazing (sarcasm) 1-2% performance boost. 

Automotive MAF sensors have not been out for a century. That is a given. I work with Vince directly to test development tunes for both the Sonic and the Cruze and he has personally expressed frustration with how un-tuneable some of these intakes are. He'll make it work if you are absolutely desperate to use one of those intakes, but that doesn't mean it's a good intake. Just because you haven't directly heard it from some of these tuners doesn't mean the problems don't exist. 

The only intake that is remotely tuneable is the K&N Typhoon intake available for the Cruze. However, that gets into the issue of using a K&N oiled filter (unless you upgrade to the Injen EA) which carries its own inherent problems. If our only solution to this problem is to use an intake that filters 10x worse than the OEM filter, we've conceded our point. 

These intakes need an air straightener.


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## snowvette (Oct 9, 2012)

Brian uses Hptuners AND EFIlive. If said intake was not a pos, he has access to the tables used to tune intakes. You don't need a different OS to tune an intake. That was all I was trying to state.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

AT the end of the day �¡GET AN AIR STRAIGHTENER! If this didn't work somebody would have posted my air straightener made my car worse. Nobody to my knowledge has done this. So why are people getting side tracked, just get its $20 dollars. 

Its funny people wont spend $20 to make their car run better but they will spend $600-$700 for an exhaust that gives no benefit other than sound.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

sx sonic said:


> If the intakes were that far off there would be nothing in the world that would adequately fix it short of a complete redesign. There are many more considerations for MAF placement and intake designs beyond turbulence, which in and of itself is a big consideration.


Its is a matter of making the car run correctly with out patching to be better. Its more about striving to do things the correct way. Think about it like audio, sure you can through an amp and new speakers in it to get more power that doesnt mean it sounds better. Tuning it in to proper levels makes it correct (ie EQ, TIME ALIGNMENT, X-OVER POINTS, STANDING WAVES, REFLECTIONS ETC)


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## Schnurd (Nov 2, 2013)

Well I ordered a honeycomb air straightener so I'll test it and see what it does!

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## sx sonic (Nov 25, 2013)

I'll leave this here for now, working 10+hrs, driving 3-4 hrs a day and studying for mid terms doesn't leave much time for forum posting :/.

Similar to the discussions here but some decent reading. I actually took my screen back out because of my preliminary test findings. When the weather is consistently nice I'm going back to testing this out for power and fuel trim changes.

That's all I've got for now. Smooth out your SRI for 40¢ - Chevy Sonic Owners Forum


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

sx sonic said:


> I'll leave this here for now, working 10+hrs, driving 3-4 hrs a day and studying for mid terms doesn't leave much time for forum posting :/.
> 
> Similar to the discussions here but some decent reading. I actually took my screen back out because of my preliminary test findings. When the weather is consistently nice I'm going back to testing this out for power and fuel trim changes.
> 
> That's all I've got for now. Smooth out your SRI for 40¢ - Chevy Sonic Owners Forum


Keep in mind the window screen was never intended to be a permanent solution. Just a quick "fix," with limited effectiveness.


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## Calintz (Jul 21, 2011)

Air straightener for my injen. Right after installing it my cruze felt smoother throughout the whole power band and more drivable than before. Going to datalog and send it to vince so everything is dial in and this is coming from a 1.8L. Thanks Andrei for the info about our intakes. Don't worry I'm changing my filter soon to AMsoil. =)


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## Austin9991 (Oct 7, 2013)

Hey xtreme, any more news/info on that treadstone performance intake? I'm very interested in this.


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## SportBilly (Nov 25, 2013)

im comming up with something that will look and perform as OEM...
this is a prototype test project.
final product will be availabe in aluminum or either painted black.

Thanks to Extremerevolutions help...


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## Quazar (Apr 28, 2011)

Ok just a couple of questions:

1. Does a screen on the outside of the filter accomplish the same results. as seen here http://eurojetracing.com/sites/default/files/images/parts/airfilter2.jpg

2. I sold my Cruze and went to a 2014 Malibu with a 2.0 turbo. The stock air filter systems are very similar and in the basic same location with similar air feeds. The major difference seems to be a silencer built in between the MAF and Turbo. Anyway, aside from whatever the filter provides in straitening, which I am unclear how the flat stock filter straitens more than a cone filter, there is no type of air straightener built in. 

I am looking to get a tune in the next couple weeks and have a straightener in the Injen air intake I have, i was just curious as to why this feature isn't apparently in the stock system. Am I missing something?


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## Nobody (Feb 12, 2012)

If I go the honeycomb route and have a tune would it be a good idea to send logs in and have the tune "adjusted"?


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## AutumnCruzeRS (Sep 10, 2012)

Nobody said:


> If I go the honeycomb route and have a tune would it be a good idea to send logs in and have the tune "adjusted"?


Wouldnt hurt to datalog. I would think there would be a possibilty of change there.


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## SportBilly (Nov 25, 2013)

What's the best way to "log"??


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## Josh4291 (Apr 1, 2014)

So I have a K&N Short ram intake on my 1.4L turbo engine.....Do I need to buy on of these honeycomb filters? and if so where from and how do I install it?


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

Austin9991 said:


> Hey xtreme, any more news/info on that treadstone performance intake? I'm very interested in this.


Me too.

Which TRE is it? There's two of them.

Air Induction - TREperformance.com

Welcome to TRE Racing Engines.com


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## Daryl (Nov 10, 2013)

Honestly I would never bother with an intake on a vehicle again that isn't tuned. Now I realize a lot of you guys do the tune to match which is a good thing. 

The intake that I had on my 6.2 Silverado actually made the truck feel worse, but I never noticed until I took it off to go back to stock before I traded it in. I guess the moral of my story is that I'll never waste my money on one again with or without a tune. Only thing I would do is go with a baffle less tube, but even then it would only be for more induction noise.

Sent from my Droid Ultra


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Daryl said:


> The intake that I had on my 6.2 Silverado actually made the truck feel worse, but I never noticed until I took it off to go back to stock before I traded it in.


It was probably a dirty oiled filter. K&N claims like 100K mileage before cleaning, and their filter flow better dirty than a clean paper filter. Thats all just BS marketing. 

I took out a cleanish looking K&N panel out of a previous car that had like 25K on it and put in a new paper filter and just like you my car had more power and ran better than before. Decided to clean and re-oil the K&N to see if it made a difference, it sure did! when i put it back the car ran just like the clean paper filter. 

I started cleaning that filter every spring just to keep the car running as good as possible. Now though I would not bother, why use an inferior filter and have to frequently take time to clean when I could just use a paper filter and swap every few years?


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

EcoDave said:


> Me too.
> 
> Which TRE is it? There's two of them.
> 
> ...


Three and I think its this one considering they made a similar intake for the cobalt SS and make a honey comb insert: Treadstone Performance Inc, Turbo Kits, Intercoolers, Turbo manifolds, Silicone hose


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

spacedout said:


> Three and I think its this one considering they made a similar intake for the cobalt SS and make a honey comb insert: Treadstone Performance Inc, Turbo Kits, Intercoolers, Turbo manifolds, Silicone hose


TRE has not yet released the intake. It is currently being developed to meet my requirements. 

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## Cru (Nov 27, 2013)

Which size of honeycomb would I need for my cruze. The 3"?


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## sx sonic (Nov 25, 2013)

A little more pertinent information to this topic has emerged.

Did some MAF screen testing. - Chevy Sonic Owners Forum



MPFab said:


> I've had this installed for the last few weeks to see how it might affect fuel trims and last night I got back on the Dyno to see how it affected power.
> From logging the car in HPTuners, I noted that idle trims were most affected by a margin of 5-7% while cruise and part throttle only varied 1-2%. The screen does straighten incoming air, but it also effectively reduces internal volume of the inlet tube. This causes the MAF to receive more airflow which richens the mixture. In my case, this was reflected by an increase in negative fuel trim numbers. This indicated the car was receiving more fuel than it wanted.
> On the dyno, I found the difference in power to be negligible at best. Surprisingly with the screen installed, it actually picked up 1-2hp peak. I did have one run in which torque was up by 5, but looking at the boost curve it was due to the boost being +1psi, on that particular run, over the no screen runs. I'll post graphs later today.
> All in all, the screen only seems to effect idle trims using the MPFab Intake. Depending on which side of 0% you're on, this may be a good option for those of you who are relying on mail-in flashes where the tuner states fuel trims are slightly out of spec on the positive side of 0(indicating the car wants more fuel). This could be installed in 5min, the car data logged, and that checked by the tuner to verify.
> ...





Breezybro said:


> Did you happen to do any research into the other perks of having it? If I'm not mistaken things such as throttle response?
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.
> ...





MPFab said:


> I think one's desire to feel a positive gain when changing components often outweighs the actual gain if any. In this case, I didn't notice any palpable changes in throttle response. I can't speak for others using screen door screen on other aftermarket intakes. I only tested the MPFab intake and I only tested a honeycomb structure designed for the intended purpose of straightening air before the MAF.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks for the info SX SONIC. I'll be using the trifecta tune so I think if there's an issue I'll purchase a straightener but I'm thinking, based on your info, I'm not going to waste the money before I know. I am wondering if there is anything I can do to improve the filtering capabilities of the K&N filter or if there's a better filter I can throw on the end of my intake. I did purchase the "dust bag/water bag" whatever it's called, that goes over the top of the filter


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## 2013LT (Jul 3, 2013)

Even with a bit of bickering there is a ton of good information on this thread. Thanks for saving me 250 bucks.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

sx sonic said:


> A little more pertinent information to this topic has emerged.
> 
> Did some MAF screen testing. - Chevy Sonic Owners Forum


The claim that the screen effectively reduces the volume of the inlet is entirely false. I didn't bother checking who actually posted the information as that is irrelevant. What is concerning is the area ***AT THE MAF SENSOR*** which is not affected by an air straightener installed even inches before the MAF sensor. You are not concerned with volume but with flow, and any reduction in flow will be so insignificant that it won't make the slightest difference.

Lastly, fuel trims will only tell one story. What you need to do is datalog actual MAF readings and plot them. WOT power runs here are 100% useless as the MAF is ignored in open loop.

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## Dragonsys (May 27, 2013)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> if there's a better filter I can throw on the end of my intake.


Injen Super-flow Web Nanofiber Dry Air FIlter


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Dragonsys said:


> Injen Super-flow Web Nanofiber Dry Air FIlter


Can or should I use my filter cover on the injen filter?


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## Dragonsys (May 27, 2013)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> Can or should I use my filter cover on the injen filter?
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


for a SRI, no need. If running an actual CAI, then yeah


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Lastly, fuel trims will only tell one story. What you need to do is datalog actual MAF readings and plot them. WOT power runs here are 100% useless as the MAF is ignored in open loop.


I forgot about open loop at WOT. Besides that, when at WOT you are demanding so much air it will tend to flow with less turbulence anyway. These air straighteners are GREAT at eliminating low/no throttle surging caused by turbulent air over the MAF. I bet allot of you with intakes have noticed the engine surge a bit when rolling up to a stop sign off the gas.


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## ldogg1579 (Jun 11, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> TRE has not yet released the intake. It is currently being developed to meet my requirements.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


Any update on this? I am looking at getting an intake, but if these guys will put a straightener in theirs, it would save me some soldering time. 

BTW, does anyone have instructions/pics of how to solder the aftermarket honeycombs to the current crop of intakes? What is Vince's stance on intakes as it relates to tuning? I understand he can "work around it", but does getting an SRI with Trifecta provide more MPG over Trifecta with stock intake?


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

ldogg1579 said:


> Any update on this? I am looking at getting an intake, but if these guys will put a straightener in theirs, it would save me some soldering time.
> 
> BTW, does anyone have instructions/pics of how to solder the aftermarket honeycombs to the current crop of intakes? What is Vince's stance on intakes as it relates to tuning? I understand he can "work around it", but does getting an SRI with Trifecta provide more MPG over Trifecta with stock intake?


I haven't noticed a difference between a stock box with res delete and a CAI. My untechnical thought is that you'll have better gas mileage on a stock box because you won't be trying to here the turbo all the **** time lol


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## ldogg1579 (Jun 11, 2014)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> I haven't noticed a difference between a stock box with res delete and a CAI. My untechnical thought is that you'll have better gas mileage on a stock box because you won't be trying to here the turbo all the **** time lol


Well, I'm not much of a "sound" guy. I am looking strictly for MPG increases. I am looking to get MPG on my 2011 1.4L Turbo to the level of ECO/hybrids. 

Speaking of that, those two models have the exact spec'd engine, besides the Turbo iirc. Why is the MPG so much different between the two?


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## 12silverLT (Jan 31, 2014)

grill shutters for high speed, lighter weight, different gearing etc...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ldogg1579 said:


> Well, I'm not much of a "sound" guy. I am looking strictly for MPG increases. I am looking to get MPG on my 2011 1.4L Turbo to the level of ECO/hybrids.
> 
> Speaking of that, those two models have the exact spec'd engine, besides the Turbo iirc. Why is the MPG so much different between the two?


Weight reduction
Grille shutters
Smaller opening in upper grille
10mm ride height reduction
Under body panels
License plate relocation (it is higher)
Rear lip spoiler
Under body panels
Under body lip (right forward of the axle)
Deeper front air dam
3 overdrive manual transmission gears


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## Austin9991 (Oct 7, 2013)

xtreme, any news on the TRE intake?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Austin9991 said:


> xtreme, any news on the TRE intake?


They have been taking WAY too long to do anything and their communication has been atrocious. I'm on the verge of finding another company to get this done as I simply can't depend on these people. 

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## Austin9991 (Oct 7, 2013)

dang that stinks, wonder if they just ran into issues designing it?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Austin9991 said:


> dang that stinks, wonder if they just ran into issues designing it?


Nope..they ran into other priorities when tax return season came around then never followed up with me. One would think my endorsement would be of some value and would merit some urgency. 

We've been at this since early December. 

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## Austin9991 (Oct 7, 2013)

you would think so considering if they made one to your specifications and you approved it, atleast 30+ members would get one immediately.


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## SportBilly (Nov 25, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Nope..they ran into other priorities when tax return season came around then never followed up with me. One would think my endorsement would be of some value and would merit some urgency.
> 
> We've been at this since early December.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


Can I help??


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## Cruze_Eco (Aug 18, 2012)

The stock air straightener will fit in the k&n intake. Do you think this would work well? 

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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Cruze_Eco said:


> The stock air straightener will fit in the k&n intake. Do you think this would work well?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


It would definitely help, if you had a good way to secure it.


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## Cruze_Eco (Aug 18, 2012)

I was thinking of using sensor safe RTV gasket maker. It fits really snug in the opening and has no way to pull through because of the lip.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Cruze_Eco said:


> I was thinking of using sensor safe RTV gasket maker. It fits really snug in the opening and has no way to pull through because of the lip.


Well, it's worth a try at that point as long as you're sure the RTV gasket maker won't get sucked in there in the event that the thing loosens up, however small of a possibility that may be.


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## Cruze_Eco (Aug 18, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Well, it's worth a try at that point as long as you're sure the RTV gasket maker won't get sucked in there in the event that the thing loosens up, however small of a possibility that may be.


That is my primary concern, but very little would be needed. I think if I were to just run a small bead around the inside of the straightener itself that would be all I would need to secure it.


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## SportBilly (Nov 25, 2013)

Hard pipe on stock box with bigger hole underneeth and k&n panel filter is by far the best I've tried so far..

(I can't upload the pic.)


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

SportBilly said:


> Hard pipe on stock box with bigger hole underneeth and k&n panel filter is by far the best I've tried so far..
> 
> (I can't upload the pic.)


One posted on CT on FB?


Sent from my iFail 5s


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## SportBilly (Nov 25, 2013)

The last one I made with the stock box I posted on fb..


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## venom_365 (Jul 10, 2011)

Cruze_Eco said:


> The stock air straightener will fit in the k&n intake. Do you think this would work well?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


So how did you end up keeping the straightener in place?? It looks like a snug fit, I might give that a try too, have the factory filter put away 


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## SportBilly (Nov 25, 2013)




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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

The Treadstone Performance intake is not happening. 

I've been in contact with one of their support reps, Tony, since December of last year. He's made every indication that they were interested and that they were working on the intake but were just busy. Then, they indicated that they had created a MAF sensor adapter for this application, and would continue working on the intake. Then, my e-mails stopped getting responded to for 2-3 months. I finally received an e-mail from them last week asking me to call to speak to Jason. The following day, I called and was told he doesn't get in till 1 and to call at 1. I called shortly after 1, and was told that he was in a meeting and to call back in an hour. I called back in an hour and was told that he was gone for the day. The following day, I called again, and was told he was yet again unavailable so they suggested I leave a message to have him call me back. I did so, and never got a call back. I called back today on my lunch break from work and was told that they really aren't interested in entering the Cruze/Sonic market and that if we wanted an intake, they'd need a cash commitment of at least two intakes at whatever price they would determine would be appropriate for a small batch of custom intakes. 

I was a bit shocked. You mean you've been stringing me along for the past 9-10 months telling me that an intake that I was advertising for you all over Cruze groups has not even begun development, while telling me that it is being developed the whole time? What a colossal waste of my time. Add this one to the list of companies to never do business with.


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## Austin9991 (Oct 7, 2013)

Awh that sucks I was hoping for someone to jump at the opportunity to make a proper intake. To save myself from reading through the entire thread again, did we ever decide that the zzp/k&n intakes were sufficient if an air straightener was added? And where has everyone been getting the straighteners?


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## Gonzo74 (Mar 1, 2014)

I bought a straightener for my injen cai here. Honeycomb Airflow Straightener although it didn't do much for the injen. That thing is junk. I should have done my research on that one. I was a new cruze owner and a little buzzed on that purchase. My Vtuner purchase however was spot on.


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## Gonzo74 (Mar 1, 2014)

I trimmed it to fit by hand. Pretty easy.


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## Austin9991 (Oct 7, 2013)

The injen is junk you're saying? What is your problem with it? 

Dang, that straightener seems to defeat the purpose of getting a non-restrictive intake. That doesn't affect flow? (outside of straightening it)


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## Tre-Cool (May 4, 2014)

I have dyno'd my own car using the factory airbox, minus the lower portion that runs around to the front vs an open lid. there was a 2whp difference.


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## Ajn (Jul 13, 2014)

NOTE: I am not trying to open a can of worms. I am just trying to understand what is going on here.

I have read through this thread quickly, it is quite long though so I may have missed something. Is there any actual proof of this turbulence? I mean, an actual data log showing it? Not just people claiming this or that, but actual data logged. I admit I have a stake in this, as I have vTuner and a ZZP Intake, but I have no issues with my tune, and it runs fine. Correlation is not causation, so I'd really like to see some empirical data. 

I am not biased one way or the other to be honest. There may in fact be issues. I'd just like to see some real evidence instead of a bunch of guesses.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Ajn said:


> NOTE: I am not trying to open a can of worms. I am just trying to understand what is going on here.
> 
> I have read through this thread quickly, it is quite long though so I may have missed something. Is there any actual proof of this turbulence? I mean, an actual data log showing it? Not just people claiming this or that, but actual data logged. I admit I have a stake in this, as I have vTuner and a ZZP Intake, but I have no issues with my tune, and it runs fine. Correlation is not causation, so I'd really like to see some empirical data.
> 
> I am not biased one way or the other to be honest. There may in fact be issues. I'd just like to see some real evidence instead of a bunch of guesses.


In my talks with Vince (Trifecta Tuning), it has been noted that aftermarket intakes are becoming increasingly more difficult to tune due to the part throttle and low velocity turbulence caused by the intakes. The OE intake has an air straightener, but none of the aftermarket ones do. In fact, on the Chevy Sonic, K&N now includes an air straightener as well, which they didn't before. 

As for actual evidence, it's not that easy to get as your fuel trims will attempt to correct the airflow issues. You do notice it however with part throttle acceleration "smoothness." Can't think of a better word for it for now. Many tuners switch instead to speed density based tunes, which more or less ignore the MAF sensor. If you want correct MAF sensor readings, some kind of air straightener is necessary. Without one, turbulence is guaranteed. 

Is it happening? Yes. Will _*you *_notice it? Maybe, maybe not.


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## Ajn (Jul 13, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> In my talks with Vince (Trifecta Tuning), it has been noted that aftermarket intakes are becoming increasingly more difficult to tune due to the part throttle and low velocity turbulence caused by the intakes. The OE intake has an air straightener, but none of the aftermarket ones do. In fact, on the Chevy Sonic, K&N now includes an air straightener as well, which they didn't before.
> 
> As for actual evidence, it's not that easy to get as your fuel trims will attempt to correct the airflow issues. You do notice it however with part throttle acceleration "smoothness." Can't think of a better word for it for now. Many tuners switch instead to speed density based tunes, which more or less ignore the MAF sensor. If you want correct MAF sensor readings, some kind of air straightener is necessary. Without one, turbulence is guaranteed.
> 
> Is it happening? Yes. Will _*you *_notice it? Maybe, maybe not.


I am not a professional, but I am very experienced with tuning my cars as well as friends, and have even built the circuit boards for them (MS3x, MS2e) for other cars. I am currently collecting datalogs from my car with the ZZP Intake on and off, as well as trying to create this MAF turbulence. This should be very clear on a datalog. So far the only issues I've come across was the hesitation caused by incorrectly gapped spark plugs. I could see how some may think this is "turbulence" or that there is something wrong with the intake, but most likely they are feeling the spark plugs. So far in the hours of datalogs I've recorded and looked through I see no odd data from the MAF sensor. The MAF gives raw data, so if the numbers were jumping around, or there was an issue it would be obvious in the datalogs.

People are going to believe what they want, but I"m still going to put this data out there when I'm done. People can take it or leave it, but it is hard to argue with data. Most of what I have looks like the picture posted below. Stable MAF signals. As the weather here cools off, it might be interesting to see how the MAF signal changes. Maybe the turbulence only happens in cooler temperature conditions. I don't know, it is what I am trying to find out. Anyways I appreciate anyone looking into this and would love to see other datalogs of people feeling this turbulence. I may be able to provide a solution. 

*IF ANYONE CAN SEND ME THEIR DATALOGS OF WHEN THE TURBULENCE IS HAPPENING I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL.*










The picture seems to have been resized real small, you can look here: http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag198/theonenaber/Datalog1_zpsa35ff8b4.jpg


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Which filter do you have on the ZZP and how many miles on it?

I noticed the biggest difference on the Injen intake I had before I sold it.

Can you adjust the scaling on the MAF reading? Kinda hard to tell when the scale is 5x as large as the maximum value. Also, can you report raw values I stead of lb/min?

Here's what I would be checking. Report the MAF in hz or voltage and compare to O2 sensor voltage, and throttle position as a start. 

I noticed that while the air may not necessarily be turbulent under all conditions, the airflow may not necessarily be even either. This was one of the problems with the Injen intake. There was always a huge difference switching between CAI and SRI mode with that Intake, where the difference was just an additional 90 degree section of pipe. No consequential IAT difference between the two modes.

I'd also recommend reading through the entire thread. Others have logged and noticed the difference undeniably. Terry (tecollins1) noticed that without the screen, his O2 voltage reading had a far worse fluctuation than with the screen. All of the reports lead me to believe that either your testing isn't identifying the problem or your specific intake isn't causing it at this time.


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## Ajn (Jul 13, 2014)

I just posted that as part of a quick response to just show a bit of what I plan to do. I have a lot more, just working on sorting through it and making it presentable. I still need to swap the stock intake back on and log as well. I'd like to get that done sooner than later as the temperature is going to change quite a bit here in AZ soon. I just want to be clear I am not saying without a doubt there isn't an issue with these intakes, but I am going to try and find proof (or at least more proof). When I have more time I will definitely look back through these threads and read it a bit slower. Thanks for the good response!


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Most GM cars years back had a seperate MAF housing with the honeycomb in it making intakes easier to slap together at home depot. Gutting this honeycomb to "improve flow" made it worse. You may also try using the air strighener in the airbox of the Cruze in the intake if you can find a way to secure it. That is literally the straightener designed for this maf unit and should help the issue. I believe this was also said in a few previous posts or related threads from a quick glance myself.


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## Ajn (Jul 13, 2014)

I understand the idea related to a MAF straightener. But I'd like to see data, not just feelings and reflections of people, that point to wacky MAF reading. I'm hoping to "present" my data next week, just need to find time. I'd like to do back to back logs with and without the aftermarket intake to compare data. The problem is I don't have any drivability issues after fixing the spark plug issue, so I am not feeling any sort of issue related to possible turbulence. 

I may swap back to the stock tune and do a back to back test as well. 

Like I said I want to try and create a controlled test to be as unbiased as possible. If there seems to be an issue than I'd love to help progress towards a workable, bolt in solution.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Ajn said:


> I understand the idea related to a MAF straightener. But I'd like to see data, not just feelings and reflections of people, that point to wacky MAF reading. I'm hoping to "present" my data next week, just need to find time. I'd like to do back to back logs with and without the aftermarket intake to compare data. The problem is I don't have any drivability issues after fixing the spark plug issue, so I am not feeling any sort of issue related to possible turbulence.
> 
> I may swap back to the stock tune and do a back to back test as well.
> 
> Like I said I want to try and create a controlled test to be as unbiased as possible. If there seems to be an issue than I'd love to help progress towards a workable, bolt in solution.


Never did find out what filter you had on your ZZP intake...


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## Austin9991 (Oct 7, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Never did find out what filter you had on your ZZP intake...


Which filter is the red one that comes with it? Is that a k&n? Because I thought zzp started shipping the intakes with a dry flow


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Austin9991 said:


> Which filter is the red one that comes with it? Is that a k&n? Because I thought zzp started shipping the intakes with a dry flow


Someone feel free to correct me on this, but IIRC, ZZP shipped with a K&N filter earlier on, then switched it to a dry filter. The reason this is significant is because a particular hardware developer for Sonics made an intake at one point with a sizeable velocity stack and insisted on using K&N filters despite their being tested to pass 10x more dust than OE filters. The reasoning behind this was that all of the other filters caused issues with the MAF sensor and MAF readings. The freeer flowing intake as a result produced fewer issues and didn't need an air straightener. 

This begs the question of "what happens once the K&N filters (or any filter for that matter) starts to fill up with dirt?" How does that affect the airflow absent of an air straightener. It would be unreasonable to expect that a filter inside a nearly open engine bay would accumulate dust 100% evenly.


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## Ajn (Jul 13, 2014)

I have the dry flow with 1500 miles. Driven through many Phoenix dust storms. I have a brand new filter also that is identical that I will swap in and log as well. I'm at work but will post more information later.


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## RhinoNinja55 (Oct 3, 2013)

Anyone know the size air straightener you need for the k&n intake?.. Gonna order it this week


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## rayray718 (Oct 14, 2013)

The first post by XtremeRevolution has a link to a honeycomb air straightener. You'll need to get the 3" and trim it down to fit inside. I plan on making that purchase soon.... Maybe today since I'm thinking of it.


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## RhinoNinja55 (Oct 3, 2013)

will this one fit then? and will it sit in there without moving?

2 75 OD 70mm OD x 0 5 Air Straightener Screen 0 25 6mm Open Cell | eBay

i know Calintz used it on an injen but didnt know if it would have the same results on the k&n


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## wasney (Mar 3, 2015)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Going to bring this back up because I love telling people I told you so. Recent thread I was notified of on SOF...
> Brian @ VT is bashing us and our intake. - Chevy Sonic Owners Forum
> 
> ...and here is when I told everyone there was an issue:
> ...



It makes me mad that they bad mouth Brian at Vtuner like that, I have been emailing him a lot lately with no problems, he is very informative, he has told me a K&N intake has no problem with his tunes. I have even asked the same question twice not paying attention and he still answered me the same without "bashing" me for it. He even said if i choose another tuner that is my choice and it is fine, I feel like this company is just mad because he told it how it is, that their CAI isn't that great. I decided to look into it, and I saw a whole lot of complaints about their intakes for the sonic. If they truly believe word to mouth on forums are good, maybe they need to take his and others comments into consideration instead of posting messages on a forum and bad mouthing Vtuner. Anyways just getting off topic. I am installing my K&N typhoon SRI tomorrow and will put the honeycomb filter out of the old airbox into my SRI. I am just going to use double sided tape as advised to hold it in, I am worried about doing that since I might re-install the old airbox for dealership issues. But I can always just order a new one.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

wasney said:


> It makes me mad that they bad mouth Brian at Vtuner like that, I have been emailing him a lot lately with no problems, he is very informative, he has told me a K&N intake has no problem with his tunes. I have even asked the same question twice not paying attention and he still answered me the same without "bashing" me for it. He even said if i choose another tuner that is my choice and it is fine, I feel like this company is just mad because he told it how it is, that their CAI isn't that great. I decided to look into it, and I saw a whole lot of complaints about their intakes for the sonic. If they truly believe word to mouth on forums are good, maybe they need to take his and others comments into consideration instead of posting messages on a forum and bad mouthing Vtuner. Anyways just getting off topic. I am installing my K&N typhoon SRI tomorrow and will put the honeycomb filter out of the old airbox into my SRI. I am just going to use double sided tape as advised to hold it in, I am worried about doing that since I might re-install the old airbox for dealership issues. But I can always just order a new one.


The intake is the last thing you have to worry about as far as warranty related things go. 

I wasn't to happy that they bad mouthed Vtuner as well. It inappropriate and distasteful for a company to trash another one publicly. I trust Brian's word that their intake needs work. Not long after, they started making their intakes available with a honeycomb air straightener, consequentially admitting that it should have been there in the first place. I had a discussion with one of the Sonic intake makers about this very topic and they even acknowledged the turbulence issue, but solved it by using a K&N filter since supposedly it caused less turbulence than dry filters. That's a pathetic band-aid solution to an acknowledged problem. Do it right or don't do it at all.


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## wasney (Mar 3, 2015)

"Solves" the turbulance but not how much dirt goes through. Lol


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

wasney said:


> "Solves" the turbulance but not how much dirt goes through. Lol


Exactly.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> but solved it by using a K&N filter since supposedly it caused less turbulence than dry filters. That's a pathetic band-aid solution to an acknowledged problem. Do it right or don't do it at all.


One thing you forget is most businesses care only about money and that is it. They did a "fix" that was approved by someone that can see it as a way to only affect sales in a positive way instead fixing a problem and dealing with their mistake and building a company that is reliable and trustworthy. The other problem is the average consumer will never even think about 99% of the stuff our forum discusses. We are a pretty smart community that doesn't just believe in sales tactics and resistor based 100 hp gains.


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## dethington38 (Apr 23, 2015)

Making a write up on how to put the factory honeycomb air straightener in an after market intake system (pod filter). Let me know if this is something you guys would want to see.


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## MPFab (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm not here to start trouble, nor am I here to sell or promote anything, but I would like to reply to a few of these post. 


XtremeRevolution said:


> The claim that the screen effectively reduces the volume of the inlet is entirely false. I didn't bother checking who actually posted the information as that is irrelevant. What is concerning is the area ***AT THE MAF SENSOR*** which is not affected by an air straightener installed even inches before the MAF sensor. You are not concerned with volume but with flow, and any reduction in flow will be so insignificant that it won't make the slightest difference.
> Lastly, fuel trims will only tell one story. What you need to do is datalog actual MAF readings and plot them. WOT power runs here are 100% useless as the MAF is ignored in open loop.
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


I stated the honeycomb reduces the _*inlet*_ volume. That statement is 100% true. The honeycomb structure does in fact take up a small amount of room which reduces the amount of air that can physically occupy the same area. I failed to define what I considered to be the inlet, and maybe that's where the problem lies in your interpretation of what I said. I was not implying that the volume of the whole inlet tube was decreased. Internal area through the inlet tube is the same as stock.
I happen to have many datalogs of MAF readings on my Sonic as well as a recent DL of a completely stock 2011 Cruze with said intake and no honeycomb. I will be glad to post up some screen shots if you are interested in seeing them.
At no point does the car ignore the MAF with the stock tuning strategy employed. When tuning open loop(WOT), you can command a specific AFR in the "Power Enrichment" tables, and then adjust the MAF curve to dial in the commanded AFR. The O2 sensor feedback is ignored during open loop.


XtremeRevolution said:


> Velocity stacks don't straighten airflow.* They reduce turbulence on the very edges of the intake tube.* Same concept is in use in "aero ports" in subwoofer enclosures.* It allows the air to flow into the intake more evenly*. However, due to the presence of bends in the air stream, an air straightener is still needed.


Your first sentence is contradicted by your next couple of sentences. Both statements sound like you are describing air being "straightened".
There is a diagram here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack
There is *no *"air straightener in the Sonic airbox. Not sure why GM decided to omit it. Instead, there is only a smooth radiused inlet. Much like a velocity stack. There are no bends in front of the MAF with this intake either. Bends in front of the MAF will definitely skew readings.


XtremeRevolution said:


> I would think very carefully about what just happened here. It was a *vendor *that came to SOF to trash another *vendor*. Did Brian of VTuner make a post on SOF saying that their intake is crap and that everyone should avoid it? Last I recall, it was a private exchange. Sounds to me like the guys selling the intake were butthurt that VTuner thought it was too difficult or impossible to tune. Consider also that VTuner stands to gain nothing by turning away business. Frankly, I find it very distasteful for the intake manufacturer to publicly bash another vendor, and am pretty disappointed but not all that surprised that the SOF forum hasn't noticed what they are doing and how unprofessional it is.


You know, I was "butthurt", but not because he made me realize something I was denying. It's because he called me a fraud by telling my customer that my development of the intake was BS. That I hadn't done any testing, and that I was only trying to make a dollar. That was *HIGHLY* unproffessional in my opinion. He could have just said he thought it was the intake causing the issue, and left it at that. His mention of another car continuing to gain + fuel trims and running like crap could easily, and most likely point to an air leak after the meter , but he insisted it was the fault of the intake.
Looking back, I should not have posted that. It _*was *_unproffesional on my end. I was emotional about being called a liar by someone who has never had any interactions with me or my business, and I reacted poorly. I haven't deleted the thread because I figured I would get just as much grief for doing that as leaving it. I hate that it went down the way it did.


XtremeRevolution said:


> What MPFab did was tasteless, Furthermore, they made a statement that Brian's tune will only play well with the stock intake, which is false. I have personally spoken to people with aftermarket intakes that are tuned by vtuner successfully.


You are correct, he mentions using the K&N and states that the ZZP isn't too bad either. I misspoke.


XtremeRevolution said:


> Now I will tell you why I was so harsh in my statement in the original post. I am frankly sick and tired of companies developing intakes that skimp on one of the most critical components of an intake just to save a few bucks. It is pathetic. For an intake that will run you no less than $250, you would expect better. I don't care how many dyno runs he made to develop that intake, it is *not *Brian's job to teach them the importance of even airflow across the MAF sensor. All of the options for the Cruze lack any form of air straightener, and I have for quite some time insisted that this is absolutely critical for accurate fuel trim calculations. Brian appears to be as sick as I am of these development practices.
> I will admit that I am not an engineer, but one thing I do know perfectly well is that a velocity stack, whether with a dry or a wet gauze filter, will not provide as accurate of a MAF sensor reading as if an air straightener was present. I've had representatives of those companies try to argue that the LTFTs were even over the long term and that the PCM is capable of adjusting fueling, but the bottom line is that the airflow is nowhere close to stock and the manufacturer of a $250 intake should not be trying to skimp on a $20 air straightener.


I do understand the importance of the MAF getting a strong consistent signal, and that's why I added the velocity stack. It ensures a smooth entry into the inlet tube which greatly reduces irregular air flow being presented to the MAF. I didn't have to add one to the kit, and it cost me more than $20 to add it too. No one else does, and it would have sold without it, but I believed it needed to be there in order for the intake to work properly.
I want to mention again, that the Sonic airbox _*doesn't*_ contain the air straightener the Cruze airbox does. I wasn't ignoring a detail in the design and proper function of the intake by omitting it. I copied the radiused entry I saw in the Sonic airbox by using the velocity stack.
I started offering the MAF honeycomb as a result of my interaction with VT because I felt like it was the best defense to the "turbulence" statements he made or possibly anyone in the future making... If you don't believe the v-stack straightens the air at all, or that it's just not enough, now I offer an additional method, and what some people think is the best way to achieve that.
Based on my experience, and looking over data with the honeycomb in vs. not, it appears to affect fuel trims at idle or low airflow primarily. MAF signal is just as smooth and consistent without it as it is with it. If I had found it to be a better method,, I would just include the honeycomb, and get rid of the v-stack all together. It would be cheaper for me to build, and easier for me to produce.
There's a good bit more that was said in this thread that I could respond to, but I feel like, at least I hope, that maybe now that you and some of your members know a little bit more about me, the impression given from my SOF post isn't the person or business owner you perceived. I would like to be able to feel welcome here, and hopefully this is moving in the right direction.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm glad you decided to post here. We were just talking about your new Cruze intake on the FB group, and I had an overall positive impression and made sure everyone knew that it looked like a good intake. Kudos for making a better intake than the K&N and for a lower price point to boot. I'm impressed. 

I probably jumped the gun a bit on my end as well. However unprofessional your thread may have been, you've more than redeemed yourself. Water under the bridge at this point, and you're more than welcome to be a member of this community. I appreciate you taking the time to correct my inaccuracies or misunderstandings and clarify your findings, and in a polite way at that. You had every reason to feel attacked by my post, and being a vendor myself, I know that's not an easy thing to do. 

Welcome to CruzeTalk. I hope to see you around more. We could use more people like you. Feel free to seek me out on FB. I wouldn't mind chatting some more offline.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

MPFab is good people, BNR deals with Walker all the time. Glad to see him on here


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## illroyale (May 25, 2014)

Is there a link to purchase?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

illroyale said:


> Is there a link to purchase?


To purchase what?


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## Clausses (Sep 8, 2014)

Xtreme isn't really even trying to attack anyone. He's just trying to point out a major flaw that a cheap piece of plastic could fix.


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## hr71c10 (May 24, 2012)

Walker, not to hijack your this thread toooo bad but what's up!!!? This is numbers from the ZRXOA. Glad to see you're on here. I don't know many of you but I do know MPFab. His stuff is top notch and he's a stand up guy. He has some really cool toys too


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## MPFab (Jun 17, 2015)

hr71c10 said:


> Walker, not to hijack your this thread toooo bad but what's up!!!? This is numbers from the ZRXOA. Glad to see you're on here. I don't know many of you but I do know MPFab. His stuff is top notch and he's a stand up guy. He has some really cool toys too


Hey, buddy! Thanks for the endorsement. I haven't been over there in forever. I randomly lurk, but it's be a while since I posted anything ZRX related. Hope all is well.


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## Calintz (Jul 21, 2011)

Hey Walker is there any chance that you will be making a 1.8L intake for the cruze?


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