# I want to slap the drivability engineer at GM



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

so im at a red light last night, have the car in manual 1st gear since its late at night and dui are common here. I see in my rear view what looked to be granny in a 78 caddy coming hot on my rear. so I plant my foot down to the floor to get out of the way (*light just turned green) and im not joking 100% truthful... car sat there for 3 seconds idling with my foot to the floor, then it decides to move and im able to get out of the lane just in time. if the head engineer is listening your a F^$k&ing idiot for tuning the ctd to have the warranty reducing throttle delay. you will get people killed just to save the company a few bucks congrats :eusa_clap:. I know this Is not a case of turbo lag. when I turn stability and traction off and leave It in automatic mode it has maybe a 1.3 second delay yet it likes to red line and not shift up if the pavement is wet and is slipping


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

Gotta remember, nothing in the Cruze (or most others) is designed by a single person. Just remember the definition of a camel "A horse designed by a committee".


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

while I do understand this, the head engineer before signing off should have checked the crews work and said " hey do we really want to sacrifice safety for warranty?" now with finance dept trying to run the show its obvious the answer but dang how do you know that tune is in place and let it slide


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Mine is an absolute rocket ship. But I only drive it in automatic mode. 

Although my DTS is instant throttle response by comparison.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

that's what gets me... in automatic casual mode its responsive most of the time, not great but acceptable. but in manual select that is sport oriented you handcuff me? I hate when car makers try to baby the consumer to make up for bad driving or to reduce there warranty claim


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## au201 (May 18, 2013)

Just for my knowledge, why does putting throttle lag in the tuning reduce warranty claims? Lessen drivetrain shock?


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

exactly. with 260 ft lbs or 280 under over boost, that's a lot of shock and strain to as gear box that has a max tq level of 325. especially off the line.if they modulate your foot at 100% and slowly build it up 100% its less strain on all systems. I hate drive by wire. I like drive by cable all the way


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

plus 90% of drivers will get use to it and drive in a " reasonable " manor thus ensuring the car doesn't get abused and can outlast the warranty. most drivers wont care but sport drivers will hate it


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

That is what tuning is for. 

This is a comfortable econo-box designed with the highest fuel economy in mind. Nothing more.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

well a tune is the fix but since I still have warranty im stuck with it


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

Mashing the foot to the floor is never the best launching technique from idle in any car and it is even worse in a turbo car. It took me a while to get used to my CTD as it was my first turbo car, but a more modest foot yields a much better launch. Using manual mode doesn't help the launch so why bother in normal driving.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

I suspect…..and could be wrong, that the diesel (and maybe the newest gassers) are employing the same technology that Toyota installed in their 'unintended acceleration debacle'.

A switch was installed along with programming that kills the throttle and only allows it to idle until the brake pedal is fully released and has reached its 'Top Stop'….or top of travel.

To find out, someone see if you can 'Brake Torque' your diesel and report back.

Rob


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## Cruzator (Dec 31, 2014)

If you "brake torque" or power brake, as we used to call it, with the traction control on and stability control on, it won't crank up very high. IF you turn the Traction Control off, it will torque brake. I'm not sure if there is any difference with the stability program disabled over just the traction control or not. I honestly have never hammered it that hard. Tried it once with the Tracton control system off and it built boost and spun the tires. With everything on, it will rev up to around 1500 RPM for a few seconds and then drops back to around 1100. (Those numbers might not be quite correct, but close). I know with the Traction control off it will go north of 2500 RPM (and it was still gaining).


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## au201 (May 18, 2013)

Robby said:


> I suspect…..and could be wrong, that the diesel (and maybe the newest gassers) are employing the same technology that Toyota installed in their 'unintended acceleration debacle'.
> 
> A switch was installed along with programming that kills the throttle and only allows it to idle until the brake pedal is fully released and has reached its 'Top Stop'….or top of travel.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure he diesel will too, but my gasser will brake torque. As the other person said it works worlds better with the traction control off. Let's you go to full stall. But they do use the anti acceleration tech...tried it on an empty road. Mash the gas pedal and lay on the brakes. At first you'll keep gaining speed then you'll feel it take throttle away (although it doesn't kill it completely. Heard this is so you can do trail braking or whatever it's called where you use gas and brakes together before a turn as not to upset the balance of the car...racing technique). You will come to a stop quickly but with the throttle still applied in a reduced state. It will then sit at a stop around 2K RPM in drive. 



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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

All you have to do is hold the car with the park brake and foot of the brake then it won't go into neutral mode. This gives you a quicker getaway without straining the transmission first.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

pandrad61 said:


> well a tune is the fix but since I still have warranty im stuck with it


Multiple people with tunes have had warranty work without issue here. I'm not saying you couldn't get hassled I'm just saying no one has. You're going to be waiting a long time if that's the case. I could see waiting the bumper-bumper but the whole powertrain? Naw, I'd go for it


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

I did a brake stand with tce off and stability off a few weeks ago and it did in fact take off like a bat out of heck.




> All you have to do is hold the car with the park brake and foot of the brake then it won't go into neutral mode. This gives you a quicker getaway without straining the transmission first


I did this in my supra to remove any slack in the drive train so there would be minimal shock and clutch modulation became a tiny bit easier since there was no slack to compensate for. in perceptron for auto x I have seen that the traction control in launching is not all that invasive and the ctd does best In D rather then manual select. now on dry days ill turn stability and traction off for best results but on a wet day I may just leave it. I wish we had separate buttons for traction and stability control.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

KpaxFAQ said:


> Multiple people with tunes have had warranty work without issue here. I'm not saying you couldn't get hassled I'm just saying no one has. You're going to be waiting a long time if that's the case. I could see waiting the bumper-bumper but the whole powertrain? Naw, I'd go for it


This, take tune off before you go back in. Not to hide the fact it was tuned, but help troubleshoot better if that makes sense. I'd prabaly sold the car before the powertrain ended so that long wait is crazy. Waiting for a newborn to walk and talk is long enough.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

this would all be fixed if we had a sport mode that sharpened throttle response, gave better shift points, and didn't have the safety off idle. Or bette yet a manual trans


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## march (Oct 15, 2012)

I just test drove a new 2014 diesel Cruze hoping that it would have more power than the 1.4 turbo and noticed the lag that you describe here and the tranny slip issue that's discussed on another thread. The acceleration issue was a deal killer for me. My old Cruze Eco went into neutral at every stop light so I had a little stumble if I accelerated quickly as it went into gear. The diesel essentially did nothing for almost 2 seconds. That's just not acceptable.
This particular diesel 2014 Cruze is new and only has 45 miles on the odometer.


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

Sometimes I think people just nit pick the smallest little things.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

march said:


> I just test drove a new 2014 diesel Cruze hoping that it would have more power than the 1.4 turbo and noticed the lag that you describe here and the tranny slip issue that's discussed on another thread. The acceleration issue was a deal killer for me. My old Cruze Eco went into neutral at every stop light so I had a little stumble if I accelerated quickly as it went into gear. The diesel essentially did nothing for almost 2 seconds. That's just not acceptable.
> This particular diesel 2014 Cruze is new and only has 45 miles on the odometer.


The US diesel uses a different auto than my Australian Cruze does, but when my car was new the turbo lag from rest was bad, a few miles on the clock and it became a different car to drive. A new car will never give it's best. My daughter recently put a deposit on a 1.6T manual hatchback, but we only had an auto to test drive. The diesel was a better drive even though both cars had the same transmission. The guys who have the 1.6T love their cars though. I can't wait to get a drive of my daughter's manual when she gets it.


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## RTShadow (Apr 22, 2013)

money_man said:


> Sometimes I think people just nit pick the smallest little things.


In the automatic, the manual mode is _supposed _to provide a more sporty driving experience. The fact is, it does exactly the opposite and hamstrings the vehicle. I even tried brake boosting but the same thing, a full 2 to 3 seconds to provide power. It's not exactly "nit picking" if manual mode doesn't even do what it is supposed to do at all. You may not enjoy sporty driving, some people do.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

RTShadow said:


> In the automatic, the manual mode is _supposed _to provide a more sporty driving experience. The fact is, it does exactly the opposite and hamstrings the vehicle. I even tried brake boosting but the same thing, a full 2 to 3 seconds to provide power. It's not exactly "nit picking" if manual mode doesn't even do what it is supposed to do at all. You may not enjoy sporty driving, some people do.


The Holden Cruze with the 1.6T auto has a sport setting for the transmission which is supposed to sharpen up the changes. It is also tuned to recognise when the driver is pressing on in auto mode and will hold a lower gear when slowing for a corner, works well from the reports I have read.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

The CTD is not a sports car. It is a high fuel economy car. 

If the CTD was intended for sporty driving GM would have offered it with the RS package and 18s. But they did not. 

This is why taking a test drive before making a purchase decision is vital to confirming that the vehicle fits your driving style and expectations.


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## jsusanka (Jan 31, 2011)

"if the head engineer is listening your a F^$k&ing idiot for tuning the ctd to have the warranty reducing throttle delay."

do they put in a warranty reducing throttle delay? 

when I bought my cruze and drove an RS and an LT1 I noticed no difference in sportiness they drove the same to me. but this was in 2011 when the RS was just a cosmetic add on. 

Doesn't the diesel have the 2lt 4 wheel disc brake sport suspension?


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## goochman (Mar 20, 2015)

The RS is a cosmetic upgrade - not a tranny programming one.

I have a 2015 Corolla rental car and it 'lags' the same as my 2015 Cruze RS LT. Nature of the econo category.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Compared to an RS, the CTD carries much more weight, has a dramatically worse front-rear balance, and does not have 18" wheels. 

What it does have is a lot more power, V speed rated tires and much stronger brakes.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

Tomko said:


> Compared to an RS, the CTD carries much more weight, has a dramatically worse front-rear balance, and does not have 18" wheels.
> 
> What it does have is a lot more power, V speed rated tires and much stronger brakes.


I bought a set of 18 X 8 wheels from a SRI-V and they make quite a lot of difference to the turn ability of the CTD. The 1.6T uses the same stud pattern and brakes as the diesel over here so getting the bigger wheels was easy for me.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Too bad you couldn't clear the TCM adaptive in that new car. Who knows how everyone before you test drove it.


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

RTShadow said:


> In the automatic, the manual mode is _supposed _to provide a more sporty driving experience. The fact is, it does exactly the opposite and hamstrings the vehicle. I even tried brake boosting but the same thing, a full 2 to 3 seconds to provide power. It's not exactly "nit picking" if manual mode doesn't even do what it is supposed to do at all. You may not enjoy sporty driving, some people do.


Manual mode in an automatic is more of a gimmick. If you wanted sporty I'd suggest buying a sports car or something with a manual transmission or at least paddle shifters. The cruze is an economy car, let's not pretend like it isnt/shouldn't be.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> when I bought my cruze and drove an RS and an LT1 I noticed no difference in sportiness they drove the same to me. but this was in 2011 when the RS was just a cosmetic add on.


like others said its a visual pack.

I don't except sports car performance since I bought my ctd as a smart fuel saver that came well equip, had room for me and the lady of my life+ our bags and a comfortable ride . not all econo boxes are slow and uninspiring, look at the ford fiesta;as a rental yes it was slow but it was fun to zip round and was slow but it was eager. the ctd from a dead stop is lazy. now when im already rolling its super eager and wants to please. im super happy with the ctd but the dumb initial program is bad. the car as a whole is very fun and the exact car I been needing and even In the turns is very predictable and fun. can I push it like my supra or Miata no but I enjoy its drive, it just needs a tune and BINGO winning recipe.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

RTShadow said:


> In the automatic, the manual mode is _supposed _to provide a more sporty driving experience. The fact is, it does exactly the opposite and hamstrings the vehicle. I even tried brake boosting but the same thing, a full 2 to 3 seconds to provide power. It's not exactly "nit picking" if manual mode doesn't even do what it is supposed to do at all. You may not enjoy sporty driving, some people do.


I had no idea you were driving a CTD.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

The Cruze Diesel came off to me as being severely [electronically] torque limited in 1st gear. Drivability engineers go to great lengths to make transitions on/off the throttle smooth, but Thats one where the programming definitely could have been done better. 

GM used to do the same thing with their 4 speed pickup transmissions to keep them from exploding; I haven't driven one of the newer 6 speed trucks. You could stomp on the gas and they would sloooowly pull away from a stop until you hit 3000 RPM or so.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> GM used to do the same thing with their 4 speed pickup transmissions to keep them from exploding; I haven't driven one of the newer 6 speed trucks. You could stomp on the gas and they would sloooowly pull away from a stop until you hit 3000 RPM or so.


exact feeling the ctd has. now at 1700-2000 it really punches but the program is horrible when trying to get through Medan left or right turn


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Rereading the title you chose for this thread I wonder if there's a drivability engineer somewhere at GM who wants to slap you?


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> Rereading the title you chose for this thread I wonder if there's a drivability engineer somewhere at GM who wants to slap you?


I doubt it, i dont know any. Hey my money paid for his salary the least he should get a chewing out for letting this crap slide, or the person on top that wanted it that way


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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

The GM engineers put that delay in to foil all the people who bought these exclusively to take to the drag strip being the incredibly fast powerhouses they are.


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## RTShadow (Apr 22, 2013)

Then they shouldn't even put a manual mode onto any economy car, if they want to make such pointless changes to the programming that basically make leaving it in auto far quicker. And there are instances when you do need to get off the line quick, that is basically the point for having a manual mode, like has been said, it's a dumb gimmick that should have never been added to this vehicle. 

Congrats Tomko, you are a slow poke hyper miler, wonderful for you, not everyone drives that way.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

RTShadow said:


> Congrats Tomko, you are a slow poke hyper miler, wonderful for you, not everyone drives that way.


I don't know about Tomko, but I got my hyper miler badge driving normally on an interstate trip. I don't seem to have anywhere near the delay you claim in my CTD, I just love the way it drives with no real effort. Manual mode is good for holding a set gear on a long hill. Although in the CTD this is never a problem.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I got my hyper miler badge by driving the speed limit and running my A/C. No special measures other than using my cruise control. 

I also recently made a $231 donation to the fine municipality of Lordstown Ohio. So I'm no turtle.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

I have automatic climate control, so a/c is never turned off. I could not be bothered driving just to get a gold Hypercruzer badge as I enjoy travelling at the maximum allowed all the time.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

I qualified for the hyper cruzer already on my trip to Miami. but i didn't notice the photo was way bad and blurred so no good. is there a hyper badge for strictly city driving?


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Without reading the entire thread one of my biggest complaints is the built in lag of the 2.0L engine.
It is not possible to always anticipate when it will happen. Worst case is we had to cross a busy two lane road so with foot on brake I loaded the engine a few hundred RPM in hopes of limiting turbo lag. 

Opening came, released brake and punched it a good 75% throttle....nothing, just rolled out into the first lane like it was at idle. Half way into the intersection with traffic barreling down on us 50MPH+ I went WOT, finally came alive like a light switch spinning the tires, TCS light and what not. I was actually worried we might not make it through at first. The gap was large enough I would have made it with my crewcab truck.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

money_man said:


> Manual mode in an automatic is more of a gimmick. If you wanted sporty I'd suggest buying a sports car or something with a manual transmission or at least paddle shifters. The cruze is an economy car, let's not pretend like it isnt/shouldn't be.


I have to disagree.
We recently drove a hilly, twisty stretch of road and the car performed much better in M5 @ 50MPH and 2000RPM. 
Have grown to like the shifter setup on the current cruze and don't like the buttons on the shifter. Paddle shifters on a truck with a column shifter would be nice. Drove my sons '15Dmax and the manual mode is awkward.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Diesel Dan said:


> Without reading the entire thread one of my biggest complaints is the built in lag of the 2.0L engine.
> It is not possible to always anticipate when it will happen. Worst case is we had to cross a busy two lane road so with foot on brake I loaded the engine a few hundred RPM in hopes of limiting turbo lag.
> 
> Opening came, released brake and punched it a good 75% throttle....nothing, just rolled out into the first lane like it was at idle. Half way into the intersection with traffic barreling down on us 50MPH+ I went WOT, finally came alive like a light switch spinning the tires, TCS light and what not. I was actually worried we might not make it through at first. The gap was large enough I would have made it with my crewcab truck.


Sounds exactly like my old turbocharged car was - only that was not programmed. Just immense turbo lag from spinning up a monster turbo with a relatively small engine.

It would move off, growl a bit, and then you'd hear the turbo spooling up and suddenly take off like a rocket.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

My Cruze doesn't give me any problem off the mark. Yes there is turbo lag but only for a short time. It is most noticeable when the A/C is working, but not really a problem as you drive to the way the engine works. I can see how a longer delay than half a second could be worrying though and would find a tune guy to fix it.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> Manual mode in an automatic is more of a gimmick. If you wanted sporty I'd suggest buying a sports car or something with a manual transmission or at least paddle shifters. The cruze is an economy car, let's not pretend like it isnt/shouldn't be


came back from autocross and my God is the automatic absolutely economy based. im at WOT then let off for the salomn then leave WOT and im back in 5th when I need 3rd; in addition go WOT it take so long for the auto box to catch up. in manual it does hold where I want it to and shifts fast enough for auto cross but sucks off the line


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

Economy cars are normally very economic. I'd bet a Mustang wouldn't act that way.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

money_man said:


> Economy cars are normally very economic. I'd bet a Mustang wouldn't act that way.


it feels like we're on a civic forum


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

Nah, we don't talk about how lonely we are and how vw would be a massive step up


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> Economy cars are normally very economic


then why is the ford fiesta so much fun to drive, why was my old corolla fun? just because its economy based does not mean you HAVE to make the drive bland. Look at Kia and Hyundai, they both have an econ and sports button. all it does is make the steering a bit more responsive, throttle sharper and shift points sporty, . The fact that kia/Hyundai can do it and for way less then the Cruze says GM has still not learned from the bankruptcy. the chassis is fun and responsive for a economy sedan but the engine programming is bland and tapioca.


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

Go try the sonic if you want sporty. It's the same 1.4T as the cruze but in a small hatch. As for the corolla bit, I find them to be the most boring cars in the world to drive. They're good for a to b and nothing else. Pretty sure they're reserved for 65+ year Olds as well


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

pandrad61 said:


> then why is the ford fiesta so much fun to drive, why was my old corolla fun? just because its economy based does not mean you HAVE to make the drive bland. Look at Kia and Hyundai, they both have an econ and sports button. all it does is make the steering a bit more responsive, throttle sharper and shift points sporty, . The fact that kia/Hyundai can do it and for way less then the Cruze says GM has still not learned from the bankruptcy. the chassis is fun and responsive for a economy sedan but the engine programming is bland and tapioca.


kia and hyundai have a diesel?


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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

boraz said:


> kia and hyundai have a diesel?


They do everywhere but here in the USA. I've seen them in Europe. In fact almost everyone does...But Bentley and Rolls.

There are even Diesel Jaguars and Mini's overseas.


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## march (Oct 15, 2012)

This is a new type of turbo that completely eliminates turbo lag:


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

Dang that hamster is badass


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

my point is that just becuase its a economy car you dont have to purpously make it bland. there are many econo boxes that when pushed are enjoyable. i had a blast at autocross and going to the track+racing= to 4$ of diesel but GM could have done a bit btter of a job all im aying


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