# If You Do Not Use Top Tier Gas...



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

In my area, the difference between cheap gas and top tier gas is nonexistent. In fact, depending on where I am, the top tier gas is even cheaper. I doubt the GM fuel treatment is a unique product.


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## zr1000a1 (Jan 25, 2012)

Chevron Techron Concentrate Plus is most probably the manufacturer for Gm's Fuel System Treatment Plus.
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/MSDSPage.aspx?directMSDSLink=true&language=en&region=NA&rbSearchType=False&txtMSDSNumber=TECHRON&lbLanguage=&lbCompany=

EDIT: Chevron is the manufacturer, Chevron Techron Concentrate Plus is probably the same thing.


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

zr1000a1 said:


> Chevron Techron Concentrate Plus is most probably the manufacturer for Gm's Fuel System Treatment Plus.
> https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds...&txtMSDSNumber=TECHRON&lbLanguage=&lbCompany=


According to GM, it is. I'll be looking at others to see how close they are.


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## Smurfenstein (Nov 16, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> In my area, the difference between cheap gas and top tier gas is nonexistent. In fact, depending on where I am, the top tier gas is even cheaper. I doubt the GM fuel treatment is a unique product.


ok, where am I moving to Xtreme? cheaper is cheaper better than 20cents more per gallon


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

Not readily available in my area. We only get Exxon/Mobil, and they're far out of my way. Looks like I'm dumping in a bottle of Gumout Regane on the next tank. Same stuff as Techron.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Smurfenstein said:


> ok, where am I moving to Xtreme? cheaper is cheaper better than 20cents more per gallon


I live in zip code 60451, southwest Chicago suburbs, New Lenox to be exact. 

Gasbuddy.com lists several Speedway gas stations and a Shell nearby for the same price, with some of the Speedways being $0.05 more expensive per gallon. The price of the shell is $3.45 for regular. These are 5 minutes away. 

I have a Shell and a Phillips 66 that are 10 minutes away that both have gas for $3.42.


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## zr1000a1 (Jan 25, 2012)

ITW Global brands, makers of Gumout, MSDS

ITW Global Brands

Looks like you would have to mix two or three different kinds of Gumout fuel cleaner to get all the ingredients in Chevron Techron Concentrate Plus Fuel system Cleaner. Interesting stuff though. Like most car additives, looks like they use inexpensive stuff like Kerosene or Naphthalene, petroleum distillates, benzene, alcohol, etc., and charge a bunch. Reminds me of the old saying, "snake oil." Probably be ahead of the game squirting some Zippo lighter fluid and some kerosene down the fill hole,....and hole might be the operative word as our wallets empty into it.

MSDS for Sta-bil and Seafoam, two other products I have and will probably still use, along with Chevron Techron fuel system cleaner for specific applications:

http://www.seafoamsales.com/please-select-engine-type-for-technical-info.html

http://sta-bil.com.au/about_sta-bil.html

http://sta-bil.com.au/pdfs/STA - BIL Fuel Stabiliser.pdf


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

Interesting, this is the first time I've heard of automakers in their manuals advocating "Top Tier" gas. I'd be curious to know if any other major automakers are dong this. 

So, now there's this along w/ Dexos oil...


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## weimerrj (Dec 4, 2011)

cwerdna said:


> Interesting, this is the first time I've heard of automakers in their manuals advocating "Top Tier" gas. I'd be curious to know if any other major automakers are dong this.
> 
> So, now there's this along w/ Dexos oil...


Apparently, they're following the lead of BMW, VW, Honda, and....Toyota. http://www.toptiergas.com/

Better check your owner's manual.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

Sniff sniff.... anyone smell a scam?

Is top tier THAT serious? 

Then again, I shouldn't bitch about it because I'm the idiot that will actually get the fuel system cleaning at every oil change -_-


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## GoldenCruze (Dec 18, 2011)

The whole point of recommending gas and oil that meets particular standards is to improve and maintain the performance and reliability of our vehicles.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

In my case, its not worth even thinking about. I have the stations nearby, and I run the best fuel I can find, plain and simple. I keep my cars over 200k miles and I maintain them religiously.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

GoldenCruze said:


> The whole point of recommending gas and oil that meets particular standards is to improve and maintain the performance and reliability of our vehicles.


In theory... but do we have any proof that it isn't just a marketing alliance?


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

ErikBEggs said:


> In theory... but do we have any proof that it isn't just a marketing alliance?


Well,,,,the companies that want the "Top Tier" rating pay for the privilige.


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

..the "truth" about *TOP TIER*™ gasoline is strictly about the *amount* of *detergent-*per-gallon -- the EPA _requires_ a certain, but *small*, amount but GM and others feel *more *is necessary, especially with todays' "tankless-return" high-pressure fuel systems:

http://www.sandyblogs.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-search.cgi?search=top+tier+gasoline&IncludeBlogs=10&limit=20


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## maven (Feb 27, 2011)

TopTier fuel is legit, its not a scam,it does what it says. Around me its only a $.02 premium or so if at all. I always use it. I get about 2mpg difference between Shell and non TopTier fuel. GM Fuel System + *is* Chevron Techron Concentrate, before GM started getting private label versions they actually recommended the Chevron stuff.


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

cwerdna said:


> Interesting, this is the first time I've heard of automakers in their manuals advocating "Top Tier" gas. I'd be curious to know if any other major automakers are dong this.


I have been wondering also. We are going to the local auto show Sunday and I plan on putting that question to a few other brands I am interested in. Cruze is still my number one choice, but with a flawless, 9 year old Mazda in the garage, I'm going to be asking some relevant SkyActive questions while I'm there.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

weimerrj said:


> Apparently, they're following the lead of BMW, VW, Honda, and....Toyota. Top Tier Gasoline
> 
> Better check your owner's manual.


I've never found a such a reference in my 06 Prius' printed manual. It's unfortunately not available as one big PDF. It's a whole bunch of separate ones and a pain to download and and open all of them.  

I have a copy of the 2010 Prius manual and the upcoming 2012 Prius c manual that someone combined into single PDFs and neither of them mention Top Tier anywhere in their manuals.

(Heck, there was even a typo in the early (?) 2010 Prius manuals that called for 88 octane gasoline...)


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## budd (Apr 12, 2011)

since my test drive last year my car has had nothing but shell gas in it even b4 i read about top tier. thats what the dealer put in it so i just keep it in it.


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## GoldenCruze (Dec 18, 2011)

ErikBEggs said:


> In theory... but do we have any proof that it isn't just a marketing alliance?


 I haven't seen any proof that it is. And I highly doubt that it would be just a marketing scheme when several automakers are involved, along with various oil corporations.


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## AGCruze (Aug 13, 2012)

The Top Tier Gasoline website has a pretty good explanation of Top Tier fuel standards and retailers who carry it. I did not know of Top Tier until 2 weeks ago. I wondered why the price difference between the discount stations and certain brands (Exxon, Shell, Texaco in my area). I guess I have been away from the performance arena for far too long.


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## Maxvla (Jul 20, 2012)

So, what about 100% gas, and E90? All of the "Top Tier" stations around me use E90, while I've been fueling at a 100% gas station all this time. The 100% station is more expensive than the top tier stations which are more than the discount stations.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

"
*Top Tier Detergent Gasoline*
TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is the premier standard for gasoline performance. Six of the world's top automakers, *BMW*, *General Motors*, *Honda*, *Toyota, Volkswagen and Audi* recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance. 
Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction. 
These automakers have raised the bar. TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline help drivers avoid lower quality gasoline which can leave deposits on critical engine parts, which reduces engine performance. That's something both drivers and automakers want to avoid." From Top Tier Gasoline

In my neck of the woods, if I avoid the pumps that sell kerosene, diesel, or fuel oil, only have three choices for gasoline. 87 octane with ethanol, 89 octane with ethanol, and 91 octane ethanol free. Price difference between the cheapest and most expensive is 20 cents per gallon.

Been around long enough on this earth where use to pay 20 cents per gallon, period. Aviation gas was even cheaper, no state or federal taxes on it, that sure changed and was always lead free. Today it averages about two bucks more per gallon.

Swear we have price fixing in Wisconsin, every gas station charges the same price per gallon in every individual town, either pay a nickel less or more dependent on the town I buy the gas at. Mostly depends upon buying gas either east or west of the Wisconsin River.

Can pay a lot more for a bi-fuel vehicle, use better materials in the fuel system, but what difference does it make if you are burning 10% or 85% ethanol, 10% is still in the fuel system on the cheaper vehicles and still causes a lot of fuel system corrosion. Seen this with my own eyes many times. These repairs are expensive even doing the work yourself.

Carbon buildup on spark plug center electrode insulators really hurts fuel economy and performance, plus that carbon buildup on intake valves. With blowby, EGR, and PVC systems plus the TB get all carboned up. Followed by carbon buildup on the rings, compression drops, and start burning oil compounding the situation.

Recently had to decarbonized my 04 Cavilier, starting burning oil and always used top tier 91 octane ethanol free gas in it. All I can say, is that using top tier gas does cut down the intervals this has to be done, Its still a dirty rotten fuel.

Claim that natural gas is clean burning, but every fall, have to tear apart my furnace and clean it up, carbon everywhere. Not nearly as bad as when I was burning #1 fuel oil, but still has to be done.

As long as we have carbon in our fuels, will always have this problem, just the frequency of cleaning may change a little.

Buy using ethanol free gas, depending on the vehicle, never put in ethanol in my Cruze yet, other vehicles had as much as a 25% decrease in fuel economy. Plus a lot of other corrosion problems. So for me, well worth paying that 20 cents a gallon extra.

Now the vehicle makers are saying using dino oil in your engine is bad, should say the same thing about using dino gasoline.


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## Patman (May 7, 2011)

I am hoping: I filled up with Speedway last week(Typically I use Shell) and my car this last week has been a "dog" I am hoping when I burn this gas off and refill with Shell, "life will be good" again automotively!


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## BlueTopaz (Aug 25, 2012)

Patman said:


> I am hoping: I filled up with Speedway last week(Typically I use Shell) and my car this last week has been a "dog" I am hoping when I burn this gas off and refill with Shell, "life will be good" again automotively!


Shell fuel has about the best additives in it for cleaning that I have seen. It is noticeable in my UOA's (used oil analysis). I try to run Shell and Exxon when I can for the better cleaning they provide to the fuel system.


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## GoldenCruze (Dec 18, 2011)

So, what about 100% gas, and E90? All of the "Top Tier" stations around me use E90, while I've been fueling at a 100% gas station all this time. The 100% station is more expensive than the top tier stations which are more than the discount stations. The 100% gas may not have sufficient detergents in it compared to a Top Tier fuel unless it is from a Top Tier supplier. Top Tier is all about keeping the engine clean.


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## Starks8 (Jul 20, 2011)

Does anybody know if 'PURE' and 'Royal' ethanol-free gas is any good?


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## lilmrsyeti (Mar 3, 2012)

GoldenCruze said:


> So, what about 100% gas, and E90? All of the "Top Tier" stations around me use E90, while I've been fueling at a 100% gas station all this time. The 100% station is more expensive than the top tier stations which are more than the discount stations. The 100% gas may not have sufficient detergents in it compared to a Top Tier fuel unless it is from a Top Tier supplier. Top Tier is all about keeping the engine clean.


I'm wondering about this as well. Because not long ago every one on here jumped on the band wagon about how you should only use 100% gas...when some of these "Top Tier" stations do NOT sell 100%


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## Patman (May 7, 2011)

Patman said:


> I am hoping: I filled up with Speedway last week(Typically I use Shell) and my car this last week has been a "dog" I am hoping when I burn this gas off and refill with Shell, "life will be good" again automotively!


FWIW I filled up with Shell yesterday and MPG seems to be up and a little more responsive. It also found it matters if you are dealing with a frachise or a corporate Shell station. Most the ones around me are franchise with higher prices but if I drive a little I can find a corporate Shell that also has lower prices ?


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Best friend claims Shell is the best, must be some Shell station near him, sons and I had bad experiences with Shell.

Another mystery is with Ethanol, doesn't seem like the major oil companies have anything to do with this stuff.

In Wisconsin:


ACE Ethanol, LLCStanley, WI41.041.0NABadger State Ethanol, LLCMonroe, WI50.050.0NABig River Resources
Boyceville LLCBoyceville, WI40.040.0NADidion EthanolCambria, WI40.040.0NADubay Biofuels GreenwoodGreenwood, WINANA5.0Marquis Energy – Wisconsin,
LLCNecedah, WI50.050.0NAUnited EthanolMilton, WI52.052.0NAUnited WI Grain Producers, LLCFriesland, WI53.053.0NAUtica Energy, LLCOshkosh, WI48.048.0NAValero Renewable Fuels"

Looks like private companies are making this stuff.
What do they know about making car gas?

Sure getting a bundle of money from the 
government.

A 39 cent pound of hamburger is now
five bucks. Make more money by selling
corn than feeding it to cattle.

Driving around looking at new car lots,
ratio of huge trucks and SUV's is at least
ten times as much as economy cars.
 


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## 2013Cruze (Aug 4, 2012)

What about BP gas? Is it any good?


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

2013Cruze said:


> What about *BP* gas? Is it any good?


...not _recently_ (ha,ha): http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...as-20120822_1_bp-stations-bp-refinery-bad-gas


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

My history with BP is 3-8 mpg less with BP, even paying the same $4.29 per gallon for 91 Octane ethanol free.

My history with buying BP gas is history.


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## coinneach (Apr 10, 2012)

NickD said:


> Best friend claims Shell is the best, must be some Shell station near him, sons and I had bad experiences with Shell.


Agreed. I went with Shell on this tank because I have a Kroger card and, well, $0.10 off per gallon. Baby is definitely not lovin' it. Going back to our usual QuikTrip when this crap is burned off.

Re BP, I've flat-out refused to buy from them ever since Deepwater Horizon. Their idiocy and incompetence in preventing the disaster (which they could have done by listening to the friggin' engineers in the first place) and managing the aftereffects is nothing short of criminal. They caused permanent, incalculable damage to the ecosystem of the Gulf (at the very least) in pursuit of a few points on the stock market. Fsck BP with a rusty chainsaw, is what I mean to say.


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## jsusanka (Jan 31, 2011)

I would recommend putting it in before you do the oil change and run through a tankful of gas with it so the oil filter can get all the dirt it cleans out and then when you get the filter changed all the crud is gone. If you do it after the oil change the crud it cleans is going to sit in the filter till the next oil change.


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## lilmrsyeti (Mar 3, 2012)

jsusanka said:


> I would recommend putting it in before you do the oil change and run through a tankful of gas with it so the oil filter can get all the dirt it cleans out and then when you get the filter changed all the crud is gone. If you do it after the oil change the crud it cleans is going to sit in the filter till the next oil change.



This makes sense. Good thought!


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## GoldenCruze (Dec 18, 2011)

NickD said:


> My history with buying BP gas is history.


+1

For me, it is more of a service issue. I never could find paper towels or windshield wash loaded in the bin at the pump. Going inside and asking for it didn't help a bit, and even resulted in getting rude remarks once. And that was at BP stations in a few different states.

I'm surprised about the comments on Shell gas because I've had no problems with it. Must have everything to do with the local supplies from the tank farms since they do the final blending when the tanker truck is filled.


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## rbtec (Feb 3, 2012)

Shell and Exxon for me.


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## RAW2U (Jul 31, 2012)

Shell for us as wellccasion14:


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Heard on the news the current administration wants 2025 vehicles to average 54 mpg. In a discussion on this issue with friends and sons, our older collector cars in top condition are experiencing 20-30 less in fuel economy over the last.

I was consistently averaging over 30 mpg with my 92 DeVille and 88 Supra Turbo, while both required 89 octane, 87 was perfectly fine. With todays gas, using 91 octane ethanol free top tier gas, lucky to get 23 mpg.

Thoughts are, if we could buy that same gas when it was less than a buck fifty per gallon, our Cruze's should get at least 54 mpg.

But today, paying way over four bucks a gallon for oxygen, nitrogen, and gulf water. And getting rotten mileage to boot.


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

NickD said:


> Heard on the news the current administration wants 2025 vehicles to average 54 mpg. In a discussion on this issue with friends and sons, our older collector cars in top condition are experiencing 20-30 less in fuel economy over the last.
> 
> I was consistently averaging over 30 mpg with my 92 DeVille and 88 Supra Turbo, while both required 89 octane, 87 was perfectly fine. With todays gas, using 91 octane ethanol free top tier gas, lucky to get 23 mpg.
> 
> ...


...you can "thank" Cali-pruña and EPA for that "help."


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

NickD said:


> I was consistently averaging over 30 mpg with my 92 DeVille and 88 Supra Turbo, while both required 89 octane, 87 was perfectly fine. With todays gas, using 91 octane ethanol free top tier gas, lucky to get 23 mpg.


I call BS, there is not that much difference in today's fuel than the fuel in the late 1980's or early 1990's. Gallon of gas has just as much BTUs as always, only slightly less BTUs with 10% ethanol. 

Best guess both your older cars have lost some compression, equaling a loss in power causing increased engine load requiring more fuel. My 1991 Buick with 3800 gets the same MPG today as it always has(have records from since it was new). Only time the MPG dropped in that car was when the first motor got tired around 265,000miles. The last 30,000miles I saw about 10mpg loss city, 5mpg highway. Once a new(50,000mile) engine was installed MPG was back to original.


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

spacedout said:


> I call BS, there is not that much difference in today's fuel than the fuel in the late 1980's or early 1990's. Gallon of gas has just as much BTUs as always, only slightly less BTUs with 10% ethanol.
> 
> Best guess both your older cars have lost some compression, equaling a loss in power causing increased engine load requiring more fuel. My 1991 Buick with 3800 gets the same MPG today as it always has(have records from since it was new). Only time the MPG dropped in that car was when the first motor got tired around 265,000miles. The last 30,000miles I saw about 10mpg loss city, 5mpg highway. Once a new(50,000mile) engine was installed MPG was back to original.


One ramification of EPA's mandated catalytic converters is computers keeping the air-fuel ratio at *stoichiometric* all the time so there's enough gasoline in the exhaust for the catalytic converters to "burn" everything properly, which means the engines CANNOT be operated at their "best" *leanest* fuel-economy A/F-ratios (ie: 16-18:1, etc.).

So, YES, the older (pre-EPA) engines could/did get better FE than current engines from the same BTU gasoline, but not so today!


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

I was always a big advocate for the top tier program, who can argue with the possibility of a cleaner engine? 

BP just recently joined the top tier program & their press release is very very telling of the actual facts.... they state they made no changes to their fuel but joined to help differentiate themselves from some of the other lower grade fuels. Basically this is bought and paid for list and nothing more. Even before this I noticed I constantly would get knock under certain circumstances with Kwik Trip(a top tier station) 91 octane no ethanol gas, however I can run 91 octane no ethanol form any other so called top tier station and it never does this.

Because of these things I now recommend people buy any fuel that runs good in your car, run top tier for detergents every once in awhile and a few times a year run a good quality injector cleaner(like Techron concentrate plus). 

BP Joins


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

spacedout said:


> I was always a big advocate for the top tier program, who can argue with the possibility of a cleaner engine?
> 
> BP just recently joined the top tier program & their press release is very very telling of the actual facts.... they state they made no changes to their fuel but joined to help differentiate themselves from some of the other lower grade fuels. Basically this is bought and paid for list and nothing more. Even before this I noticed I constantly would get knock under certain circumstances with Kwik Trip(a top tier station) 91 octane no ethanol gas, however I can run 91 octane no ethanol form any other so called top tier station and it never does this.
> 
> ...


I normally run gas from my local Safeway. Every other month or so I run a tank of Shell vPower Premium for the added detergents. I may be wrong, but I try to choose a busy station to reduce the chance of getting crap gas.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

obermd said:


> I may be wrong, but I try to choose a busy station to reduce the chance of getting crap gas.


That's great advice and the reason I decided to try the fuel at a local ethanol plant. They offer three grades of gas, 89 E10 octane regular, E25 and E85. Since 99% of their customers are buying regular gas, they are always cheaper and the fuel is straight from the source I figured less risk of fuel contamination. 

I typically buy 45 gallons of fuel a month, so at 50cents a gallon savings over premium I am saving $22.50 a month or $270 a year If I continue to fuel there. As well as it runs I will continue to use non-top tier fuel. Its a bit out of the way for me but I only need to fuel about once every 3 weeks anyway so I can plan a trip near by.


EDIT: If your wondering why I revived this year old thread, I did a search and figured there was already enough topics on the subject & no reason to start another.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Fair enough. Sometimes reviving an old thread allows new readers a chance to read the backstory.


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## jsusanka (Jan 31, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> In my case, its not worth even thinking about. I have the stations nearby, and I run the best fuel I can find, plain and simple. I keep my cars over 200k miles and I maintain them religiously.


Yep totally agree. I have been thinking about this and I am thinking I am even going to put Amosil PI in more often and just change my amosil SS 5w-30 every 7500 hundred miles no matter what the OLM says. I have been been doing this our 2007 mazda 3s and have had zero problems except for an O2 sensor that went bad just recently. Now that I got the torque app and a bluetooth reader I see a code in our mazda 3s for p0400 egr stuck - it says somethin like predictive or something like that so the engine light isn't on but just shows this code. When the dealer replaced the o2 sensor they said may have trouble getting it out and I would have to get a new cat. Well they got it out but they used a bunch of PB and I bet that got in the exhaust and this code could possibly be from that (was the upstream o2 sensor so I think my theory could be correct). So before I go to the seafoam spray extreme I am going to run a few bottles of Amsoil PI and shell premium in it and see if that makes the code go away and cleans things up. I am also going back to 7500 mile oil changes on it too because that last two years I have been going to once a year oil changes with a synthetic oil filter but I think I am going to stick to 7500 on it too. It is just worth it IMO. I hate these EGR systems. Not sure putting exhaust gas back into the engine is such a great idea.


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## Snappa (Mar 31, 2013)

I use that stuff every 3,000 miles and I have yet to have paid such a ridiculous price for it, I'm fact each time I get it it's always buy one get one free for about $12 or even lower. I have a bottle now that I haven't used yet that I got free.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

While using so-called top tier gas, really no specifications on this, still toss in a can of Seafoam in my tank before doing an oil change.

I Know the stuff works, always find a lot of carbon build up on the upper piston rings, top of the piston, and under the intake valves. With a couple of tanks fills, cleaned all this crap off. Runs $6.99 a pint at my Fleet Farm Store, but a couple of months ago was $4.99, so picked up a half a dozen cans.

Could also add one and a half ounces per quart to my engine oil before a change to keep that clean, but change my oil before it gets dirty. But sure have used it on used up cars I got for my kids for college. Sometimes 3 or 4 treatments.

Ha, with TB treatment, pour it into a running engine and until it stalls, a very slow pour, take a vehicle out on a quiet road after a ten minute wait at 3:00AM. This is when the drunks are off the road and before normal people get up. Talk about a huge trail of smoke lasting for a good ten miles. Ha, wouldn't dare do this in my driveway, fire department, neighbors, and the police would be over.

Keeping any carbon burning engine clean is constant, ever clean a coal burning furnace?


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