# E15 vs 100% Gasoline



## WHITECO (Mar 31, 2011)

All fuel is blended here in Alberta Canada....I wish we could get 100%


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## rlhammon (Apr 7, 2011)

Addtional ethanol will decrese your MPG, the more ethanol, the lower the MPG will go. E85 (FlexFuel vehicles) see 15-20% reduction.


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## 72oly300 (Apr 9, 2011)

I've driven about 6-8000 miles using nothing but E-85 in mostly large trucks and SUVs. My experience was about a 30% mpg reduction running on the freeway vs. 100% gas. They say using E10 gets about a 10% reduction. Have not seen 100% gas in a long time.


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## cerbomark (Dec 13, 2010)

ethonol gas is crap! and that s all we can get in ny/nj. screwing up many snowmobiles here.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

WHITECO said:


> All fuel is blended here in Alberta Canada....I wish we could get 100%


Go to pure-gas.org for addresses & a great map showing 100% gas selling stations. Alberta has a handfull of 100% stations & Calgary has only 1 station.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

silvercruze said:


> Would like to hear of any experiences any of you might have with blended fuels vs 100% gas.


Go to pure-gas.org for addresses & a map showing 100% gas stations in your area. Our 3 cars show mpg increases of 8%, 7-8%, & 6% using 100% gasoline. All three engines are smoother(sometimes manual shifts are very smooth) & quieter. All three engines do not need as much downshifting to ascend hills. Two of our cars set their all-time mpg records within 3 weeks of using 100% pure gas, one car being my 22 year owned Ford Festiva & getting 57.5 mpg. 4800+ stations sell 100% gasoline in Canada & U.S. However, large regions & whole states don't sell 100% gasoline. In regions lacking many 100% gas stations, fill a 5 gallon gas can as well as your vehicle tank to be able to get to the next station. Over 300 stations in Florida sell 100% pure gas.


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## coats (Oct 5, 2011)

Just search for the nearest Country Mark gas station and go through their website and find the search function. From there you can select ethanol free gas and find a station near you that sells it. I found one that was 20 minutes from my house and that's where I go now!


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## SlvrECObullet (Feb 21, 2012)

California has only 5 100% gas stations in , and there way out of the way from San Diego. We NEED a STATION IN SAN DIEGO!!! E(anything suck a$$


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Love listening to these politicians that come up on Wisconsin Public Radio as to how great ethanol is for the environment, the state economy, etc. Sure its great, for Land O' Lakes that can have corporation farms paying illegals, legal for them to have as many as three per farm, and work their families to death for a hundred bucks per week. So much for child labor laws, the kids have to work just as hard. Born here are automatically US citizens, figure that out. 

Wife deals constantly with these people, mangled or crippled for life, no workmen's compensation, no health insurance, no liability against Land O' Lakes, just fire them and get someone else. This has got to be criminal and is done by the crooks that run MY country. 

Occasionally have opposing guests, claim just as much fossil fuels are used, and without tax subsidies would go broke. Ethanol plants in Wisconsin are breaking every federal EPA law on the books and getting aways with it.

Own experience was drastic causing major damage to my older vehicles, least living up north, still can buy ethanol free gas, but pay an extra quarter a gallon for it. Boat has a big sign on it, do not use ethanol! Forgot to fill my tank first just once before going down to Milwaukee, got a bad mix. To prevent detonation with my Cavalier, had to drive home either in 3rd or forth gear. Averaged a whole 17 mpg instead of 36.

So why aren't the rest of this fighting this? Certainly a waste of my time to contact my crooked assemblyman. But maybe a couple of extra letters would make a difference.


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## savethewave (Dec 17, 2011)

I seem to get about the same with gas and 15%. My range has been 45 to 52 in summer, but drops of to 42 to 45 in winter.


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## sedanman (Dec 10, 2010)

Is the pure 100% gas top tier? Does it have detergents in it? I'd rather get 3mpg less and have a clean engine than 3mpg more and have an engine full of carbon deposits. BTW ethanol increases power and helps clean the engine of deposits.

NO DETERGENTS? NO THANKS!


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## parish8 (Mar 11, 2012)

so much hate for ethanol. i dont know the politics of it. i have seen arguments for both sides and do not know what to believe.

i love e85. everyone around here with a boosted race car runs it. recently we took our fox body mustang into the 8's at 150mph running e85 on a nearly stock chevy 6.0. it doesn't even have an intercooler. 

if you need to run premium then e85 starts to make sense and if you wish you had fuel that was better than premium then it is a no brainer since it is way better than premium and nearly the same cost/mile. 

here is a copy and paste from a local discussion on e10 that i happen to agree with. i just dont see how people are getting 10% or more reduction in mileage on e10.



> Here's my non-scientific way of looking at it. It is generally agreed that there is 30% less energy in E85 than no-alcohol gas, thus when people tune for it they generally start by adding 30% to the fuel table as a rough idea and then tune from there. So, if that is the case, going from no-alcohol gas to 10% it should take 3% more fuel. So, if gas is $3.00 it would take $.10 more in fuel to make it pay. What do you know? The difference is generally $.10. So, your mileage should be down by 3% but your cost should be down by 3% and your cost per mile should be the same.
> 
> There are so many variables when driving I have a hard time believing anyone's claims that someone could get 10, 15 or 20% less mileage on a fuel that is 90% gasoline and 10% alcohol that has 70% of the energy density of gasoline or a blended 97% gasoline density. It doesn't make mathematical sense.


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

It's all about co$t vs. distance.

E85 is great for people principally interested in maximum *HP* and not fuel economy (FE). However, people who want to pay lea$t for the miles they must drive are interested in maximum *FE* (*MPG*) and not maximum HP.

*HP* _eats_ gasoline -- E85 has a higher octane number, so more timing can be used, but the ethanol content contains about 30% _less_ *energy* than gasoline.

*FE* _sips_ gasoline -- Pure gasoline may have a lower octane number, but it contains _more_ energy than E85, effectively almost 30% more, and energy content produces more FE (MPG).


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## Beaker (Mar 21, 2012)

Florida is 10% ethanol max just like the rest of the country. E15 has yet to be approved.


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## Beaker (Mar 21, 2012)

parish8 said:


> so much hate for ethanol. i dont know the politics of it. i have seen arguments for both sides and do not know what to believe.
> 
> i love e85. everyone around here with a boosted race car runs it. recently we took our fox body mustang into the 8's at 150mph running e85 on a nearly stock chevy 6.0. it doesn't even have an intercooler.
> 
> ...


E85 is popular on boosted motors because ethanol lets you run higher compression due to the higher octane rating. It is great for making power but you use far more fuel than with gas. And its cooling effects are especially good for boosted engines.

Ethanol itself isn't a bad idea its the way we manufacture it right now in the US. If there was a cheap way to make ethanol that didn't use food crops and used far less energy to produce than current methods it'd make a great fuel. But right now all it does is raise the price of food across the world and currently takes more energy to produce a gallon than that gallon of gas can produce when burned.


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## Higgs Boson (Mar 7, 2012)

Remember, octane is resistance to detonation. Octane is NOT higher energy. Some 87 octane fuels contain more energy than their premium fuel counterparts.

I have been racing karts since 8 yrs old and NHRA and IHRA since 16 and I remember my father and uncle talking about when VP Race Fuels was first created (they are based here in SATX). The owner was friends with them and was always getting them to try all these cool higher octane fuels and their race cars (which were 10 second cars - not street cars but not top fuelers either, lol) always ran slower on VP than the PUMP gas they had been running!

Hardly a scientific recounting, but applicable nonetheless. Higher octane and race fuels can slow you down when used out of context. Run what your engine is built for and your computer program is tuned for. It really is as simple as that.

As for E10 or E85 cleaning your engine, uh, NO.... I cannot tell you how many BRAND NEW vehicles have had to have their fuel pumps, sending units, etc replaced (under warranty) due to the initial switch over to ethanol fuels. It is a KILLER for weedeaters, lawn mowers, etc. ****, I run VP C12 with two stroke oil in my shifter kart and C12 in my NHRA Super Stock car and that stuff is 12 bucks a gallon now. I guess that is one good thing about ethanol. It's a FILLER, like the pink slime in your beef, lol. It makes it cheaper, that's ALL.

Karting
3rd Lap Main - YouTube

Drag Racing
Super Stock - YouTube


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## Beaker (Mar 21, 2012)

Oh I know. As I said, E85 is only great for making power because it lets you run higher compression which increases the efficiency of a motor. But you still need far more fuel compared to gas due to the lower energy per unit of ethanol.

Higher octane definitely does not equal more power. A NA motor with 9:1 compression will likely make less power on higher octane fuel than lower octane fuel because you're not getting as complete a burn. I often wonder why people put 160-180 degree thermostats in performance engines. I want to keep the engine as hot as possible without getting detonation and without overheating the engine. 200-220 is a good operating range for an engine.

I definitely think ethanol is a waste in gas. It's nothing but an illusion of being "green" when in reality its even less green than just having 100% gas. Ultimately its nothing but the result of when you let politicians and bureaucrats decide what goes into fuel instead of scientists and engineers. Heck cars from 6-10 years ago got better mileage than cars today because they had a feature known as lean cruise which leaned out the mixture a bit at cruising speeds. Better mileage with slightly more emissions. New emissions laws came out and now we burn more fuel (causing more emissions) instead of burning less fuel with likely the same emissions as burning less fuel.

You look at diesels and its even worse. I looked at a 98 Jetta TDI and it wasn't uncommon to get 55 mpg. The same car today is rated at 40 mpg. All in the name of less emissions. The crazies won't stop either until we're at 0 emissions from the vehicle itself. Instead we'll be relying on an ever more strained energy grid (also due to hating emisisons and wanting to use more "green" solutions like solar and wind instead of proven, reliable methods like nuclear) and a string of rare earth metals which we have even less control over than oil.

Personally I'm all about bio fuels. Specifically diesel "grown" with algae. Thousands of jobs and I'm sure we could eventually mass produce it for around $2.50-$3.00/gallon.


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## Higgs Boson (Mar 7, 2012)

People put 160 deg thermostats in because even though they are driving aluminum block and head engines with precise fuel, air, timing controls, they think they are driving iron block and head engines with carburators, roughly calibrated distributors, cooling fans and clutches bolted to the water pump, and fuel sloshing around with no capacity to manage heat in beneficial ways. It's a legacy modification that has just hung on to the industry and no one really knows why they do it, it's just always been the thing to do....

Intakes have no benefit anymore, for the most part. Exhaust mods are becoming less relevant and most of your power is now in the computer..... Catback exhausts give you 5 HP these days and make your car sound terrible. Not worth it even a little.


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## Beaker (Mar 21, 2012)

Well I'm a firm believer in freeing up the intake and exhaust flow is never a bad thing. Granted on motors this small the gains are negligible. On my GTO I had an OTRCAI, ported TB, ported manifold, headers, catback, and tune I gained about 40 hp and torque. Tune was about 10 of that. Again though, much larger motor.

On this car, the K&N and tune is all I'll ever likely do. Spending $500 on an exhaust for this car seems silly. I do like the sound of the Borla since its not pingy or anything. But $750 for it on a 1.4L isn't worth it. This is an economy car. Not a performance car. Running 15.3 instead of 15.5 is hardly bragging rights. Congrats, you beat a Civic. You'll still get spanked by a V6 Camry.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

coats said:


> Just search for the nearest Country Mark gas station and go through their website and find the search function. From there you can select ethanol free gas and find a station near you that sells it.


pure-gas.org has your Country Mark 100% gas station addresses, as well as on their zoomable map, & nearly 5000 ethanol-free stations in the U.S. & Canada. pure-gas.org also has an app for locating 100% ethanol free stations while you travel. Take a 5 gallon gas can & fill it up, as well as your gas tank so you can get to the next ethanol free gas station in regions & states where there are few ethanol free stations. An extra 5 gallon gas can lets me go 700+ miles between fills while traveling.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

parish8 said:


> ..... so much hate for ethanol.
> i love e85. everyone around here with a boosted race car runs it.


Whereas, you are tuning the gasoline engine to work better with ethanol, most gasoline engines use an ethanol-gasoline blend with no adjustments. & because an ethanol engine has been designed to use ethanol at its most efficient level, even tuning a gasoline engine to use ethanol, must be missing some efficiency. Yeah, people who have gasoline designed engines are tired of ethanol. They want their 100% ethanol-free gasoline returned to them. It should NOT be legal for gov't to take away 8%, 7-8% or 6% of gasolines' efficiency. Plus, ethanol takes away smoothness, quietness & extra power from gasoline-designed engines.
Yeah, stuff the ethanol.


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

"Watering down" *whiskey* is a federal crime...samething should apply to "diluting" our *gasoline*!


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

Its not super noticeable. I tried 3-4 tanks of E0 of a NOCO brand (not discount, but not top tier) before ultimately going back to Sunoco E10. Both were 91 Octane, no change in fuel mileage. So obviously one place is lying to me, or there isn't that much difference.

And even if E0 does give better mileage, the E0 91 was about $.15 more than E10 Sunoco 93, and $.20-.25 more than E10 Sunoco 91. You do the math.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

ErikBEggs said:


> Its not super noticeable. I tried 3-4 tanks of E0 of a NOCO brand (not discount, but not top tier) before ultimately going back to Sunoco E10.
> 
> And even if E0 does give better mileage, the E0 91 was about $.15 more than E10 Sunoco 93......


ErikBEggs has said 10% ethanol only makes 2-3% difference. If that was so, people would not notice any difference. My wife, who doesn't like cars & doesn't pay attention to their functioning, noticed the difference between 10% ethanol blends & 100% pure gasoline. She said the car was quieter & smoother. Of course, ErikBEggs is wrong. With accurate records, our switch to 100% pure gasoline, caused our 3 cars' mpg to increase 8%, 7-8%, & 6%. ErikBEgges accounts only for the btu difference between 10% ethanol blends & 100% pure gasoline. However, ethanol fuel needs ethanol engines with much higher compression ratios to get the efficiency inherent in ethanol. Gasoline engines have lower compression ratios.

As for prices, shop for 100% pure gasoline which is competitive to some of the 10% ethanol blend cheapos. Everett, WA has a great competitive station at 2100 block of Broadway selling 100% pure gasoline.


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## rbtec (Feb 3, 2012)

litesong said:


> ErikBEggs has said 10% ethanol only makes 2-3% difference. If that was so, people would not notice any difference. My wife, who doesn't like cars & doesn't pay attention to their functioning, noticed the difference between 10% ethanol blends & 100% pure gasoline. She said the car was quieter & smoother. Of course, ErikBEggs is wrong. With accurate records, our switch to 100% pure gasoline, caused our 3 cars' mpg to increase 8%, 7-8%, & 6%. ErikBEgges accounts only for the btu difference between 10% ethanol blends & 100% pure gasoline. However, ethanol fuel needs ethanol engines with much higher compression ratios to get the efficiency inherent in ethanol. Gasoline engines have lower compression ratios.


Wish I could find E0 gas.


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

rbtec said:


> Wish I could find E0 gas.


Yeah, many Americans & Canadians can't get 100% pure gasoline.

Hopefully, you have seen my advice to go to pure-gas.org. I don't know where you live. If you don't have many stations selling 100% pure gasoline in your area or state, sometimes you can find other stations in other states, if you are close to the border. Look carefully at the great zoomable map at pure-gas.org. It is excellent to narrow down & pick any possible choices. Check airports, marinas & farm co-ops who have exemptions so they can use 100% gasoline IF they chose to sell 100% ethanol-free gasoline.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Owners manual says this:

"Fuel
Use of the recommended fuel is an
important part of the proper
maintenance of this vehicle. To help
keep the engine clean and maintain
optimum vehicle performance, we
recommend the use of gasoline
advertised as TOP TIER Detergent
Gasoline.
Look for the TOP TIER label on the
fuel pump to ensure gasoline meets
enhanced detergency standards
developed by auto companies. A list
of marketers providing TOP TIER
Detergent Gasoline can be found at
www.toptiergas.com."

But then also says this:

"Gasoline Specifications
(U.S. and Canada Only)
At a minimum, gasoline should meet
ASTM specification D 4814 in the
United States or CAN/CGSB‐3.5 or
3.511 in Canada. Some gasolines
contain an octane-enhancing
additive called
methylcyclopentadienyl manganese
tricarbonyl (MMT). We recommend
against the use of gasolines
containing MMT. See Fuel Additives
on page 9‑45 for additional
information."

And then this:

"Gasolines containing oxygenates,
such as ethers and ethanol, and
reformulated gasolines might be
available in your area. We
recommend that you use these
gasolines, if they comply with the
specifications described earlier.
However, E85 (85% ethanol) and
other fuels containing more than
15% ethanol must not be used in
vehicles that were not designed
for those fuels."

In my neck of the woods, have yet to see a fuel that contains 10% ethanol meeting Top Tier standards. So read this manual as a strong contradiction.

Ethanol is burning up our food supply, bad enough going to a gas station to fill up. Even a lot worse going to a grocery store. Wife and I stopped in the other night and just picked up about 22 items, bill was 85 bucks for a couple of small bags. Pound of fatty hamburger is $4.30 and a small box of cereal is also that much.

Where are we headed? As a kid, came from a dirt poor family, mom never had a car, so we had to walk everywhere. But think I would rather eat than drive.


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## rbtec (Feb 3, 2012)

litesong said:


> Yeah, many Americans & Candadians can't get 100% pure gasoline.
> 
> Hopefully, you have seen my advice to go to pure-gas.org. I don't know where you live. If you don't have many stations selling 100% pure gasoline in your area or state, sometimes you can find other stations in other states, if you are close to the border. Look carefully at the great zoomable map at pure-gas.org. It is excellent to narrow down & pick any possible choices. Check airports, marinas & farm co-ops who have exemptions so they can use 100% gasoline.


Live in South Easterm Michigan, no where near an EO gas station. Really irks me.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

rbtec said:


> Live in South Easterm Michigan, no where near an EO gas station. Really irks me.


That's too bad. As I've mentioned before, there are marinas on the shores of Lake Erie that have 100% gasoline. Are Reading or Marshall(that have 100% gasoline) too far away from you? I get my 100% gasoline 16 miles from my home(with a good price), altho its fortunately on a route I'm often near. Get on the phone & really scrounge around for airports & farm co-ops in your area that might sell 100% ethanol-free gasoline. I see lots of airports around Adrian that may have 100% gasoline. Ask friends, truckers, newspapers, county gov't where 100% pure gasoline might be found.

Its funny that a rough triangle of stations around GreenBay, Milwaukee & Minneapolis have 8-10% of all the stations selling 100% pure gasoline in the U.S. & Canada & that the Southeast U.S. has a v.high density of 100% pure gasoline stations. 

If you do find a source for 100% pure gasoline, make sure to add it to the 5200+(10 in every 350) listings at pure-gas.org.


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## rbtec (Feb 3, 2012)

litesong said:


> That's too bad. As I've mentioned before, there are marinas on the shores of Lake Erie that have 100% gasoline. Are Reading or Marshall(that have 100% gasoline) too far away from you? I get my 100% gasoline 16 miles from my home(with a good price), altho its fortunately on a route I'm often near. Get on the phone & really scrounge around for airports & farm co-ops in your area that might sell 100% ethanol-free gasoline. I see lots of airports around Adrian that may have 100% gasoline. Ask friends, truckers, newspapers, county gov't where 100% pure gasoline might be found.
> 
> Its funny that a rough triangle of stations around GreenBay, Milwaukee & Minneapolis have 8-10% of all the stations selling 100% pure gasoline in the U.S. & Canada & that the Southeast U.S. has a v.high density of 100% pure gasoline stations.
> 
> If you do find a source for 100% pure gasoline, make sure to add it to the 5200+(10 in every 350) listings at pure-gas.org.


Live in the Ann Arbor area.


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

NickD said:


> Ethanol is burning up our food supply, bad enough going to a gas station to fill up. Even a lot worse going to a grocery store. Wife and I stopped in the other night and just picked up about 22 items, bill was 85 bucks for a couple of small bags. Pound of fatty hamburger is $4.30 and a small box of cereal is also that much.
> 
> Where are we headed? As a kid, came from a dirt poor family, mom never had a car, so we had to walk everywhere. But think I would rather eat than drive.


I doubt this. It is more the cost of transporting the food has gone up with gasoline and toll hikes. Who would have thought? It's a cycle!!! OMG.

I'm in the camp that 10% ethanol is not a bad thing by any means. Your car is designed to run on it, its 98.1% the energy of regular gas, and actually has less residue left on your engine components. So why not? It's cheaper.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

rbtec said:


> Live in the Ann Arbor area.


Airports in the immediate Ann Arbor area are Willow Run, Belleville,& Ann Arbor Municipal. Other airports are Cackleberry, Richmond Field, Honey Acres, Rosettie, Meyers-Divers, Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County, Oakland Southwest, Canton-Plymouth-Mettetal. Probably some don't sell 100% gasoline, tho they should have exemptions to do so if they desire.


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## FoSHO99 (May 16, 2011)

There is so much misconception with ethanol out there that it's hard to follow along and most go on the bandwagon that "it gets less mpg than pure gas" therefore it is the devil.

Along with what was suggested earlier, the only problem with ethanol is the way it is made in the U.S. currently. Brazil has been running their country on ethanol for years without foreign dependance because they are able to manufacture ethanol efficiently from sugar cane.

If you care to read more, i started this with some good links:
The E-85 Thread

If manufacturers would be a little more aggressive in timing and AFR's on ethanol or even higher compression blocks, some of that mileage can easily be recovered but we all know that won't happen.

I've ran 13.5 AFR's WOT on boost without knock while my stock fuel pump was crapping out and that's just something unheard of. There is a lot more room for error.


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