# Technology used for Cruze Diesel Cold Temperature Starting?



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I don't have a whole lot of experience with Diesels, but I do know that they used ceramic instead of steel glow plugs for faster cold starts, and an engine block heater will be available for extreme cold climates.


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## Sunline Fan (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be on this. There are a number of differences between Powerstrokes though. The newer 6.4 and 6.7s use a common rail high pressure fuel system that makes it much easier to start in cold weather because it relies on the fuel pump to get the fuel into the cylinder. The older 7.3 (and 6.0) Powerstrokes use HEUI (Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injection), so a high pressure oil pump (HPOP) is needed to build enough oil pressure to fire the injectors. So in the winter, oil is much thicker when cold and it takes time for this oil to get flowing really well to fire the injectors. This is why a 7.3 PSD is generally harder to start in cold weather when the block heater isn't plugged in but a newer 6.4/6.7 will start quick as long as the fuel isn't gelled. #2 winter blend diesel is designed to avoid gelling, and if the truck is used regularly, it probably won't gel unless it's like northern Canada cold, in which case you use additives to prevent gelling. Of course if the truck sits out for a week in 0 degrees, that could be a problem, but chances are someone with a Cruze diesel will use it pretty regularly.

The 2.0T Cruze diesel will be a Common Rail, Piezo injected system just like the 6.4/6.7, so I suspect it will operate much in the same ways.

My dad's 6.4 Powerstroke is awesome in cold weather. Granted it isn't a daily driver and isn't driven in the winter, but when it has been out in 20/30 degrees in the late fall, it'll start like it's 70 out. Then it'll go into high idle after a minute of sitting in park to help warm it up. The common rail system has decent power if going to drive soon after starting, but I still try to let it warm up a little. If I were to try to pull out onto a road in a very cold 7.3, I'd have very little acceleration because the oil is thick and can't fire the injectors very well.

That said, I love the 7.3. The sound is great and it's relatively simple. Youtube 7.3 Powerstroke cold start and 6.4 Powerstroke cold start and you'll see the big differences between them.

Here's a bit of an extreme example- the 7.3 that I bought last year. This was the first start after sitting for two months, had been rolled over causing most of the oil to drain out, and it was about 32 degrees at the time. We added oil, new batteries (doors open drained the old ones), and fired it up. As you can see, it was a rough start, but it started pretty quick. It went into high idle not long after and was running fine within a couple minutes. I got it up to temp and did a couple boosted runs in the driveway!


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## Suns_PSD (Feb 16, 2013)

Modern common rail formulations have little trouble w/ very cold winters. My 7.3 started up at -27 instantly not plugged in. It poured white smoke (unburnt diesel) for 10 minutes though.

They also add antigel additives to diesel fuel in very cold climates. In short you should have very little trouble w/ this unless you drive out to an oil patch somewhere and leave your vehicle parked out in the cold in North Dakota or something.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

My Cruze diesel has glow plugs but between 0C and 47C (32f to 115F) it starts instantly without any using the glow plugs at all. It is now 6 months old. Never gets much below 0C in sydney so don't know about freezing conditions.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

I don't normally bring up old threads often, but I figured I'd chime in here.

It was -16F this morning in Peyton, CO when I went to start my 2014 2.0TD Cruze. It wouldn't start.... even with a few blasts of starting fluid. There was nothing I could do to start it and had to take another vehicle to work. I'm not impressed, to say the least....

I've had the car for about 3 months now, with no other notable problems to speak of.


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

Do you uses additives? 

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

VtTD said:


> Do you uses additives?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


No, but I will be from now on. To be honest, I didn't know I'd need them. I'll be the first to admit, I took some things for granted... assuming the car would start, based on the newer diesel technology. I guess there are just some things that cannot be engineered to be full-proof.

As a consideration, though... I didn't know it was ok to put anything in the tank. My friend has a diesel Jetta, and was very clear that they will give you all sorts of grief... and even void the warranty if they find out. No Magnuson-Moss act will save you. I called my dealer's service dept (which is ironically a Chevy-Volkswagen dealer), and he said the exact same thing... but also said Chevy does not really care, because they have no procedure for testing it.

Seriously... I've never had a problem starting a diesel. Even the old trucks and generators I had to use in my Air Force career would always start with a blast of carb cleaner or starter fluid/ether. That did not help me at all today. 

I also just realized the car has an oil pan heater. If I had known it wouldn't start this morning, I would've plugged it in.


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## MilTownSHO (Oct 9, 2013)

It's probably the blend of diesel in it. I have started mine in negative weather without an issue.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> ... but also said Chevy does not really care, because they have no procedure for testing it.


Unlike VW, Chevy also hasn't had a problem with grenading fuel pumps either (knock on wood) which at least at first VW tried to blame on user error (misfueling, etc.).


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> I don't normally bring up old threads often, but I figured I'd chime in here.
> 
> It was -16F this morning in Peyton, CO when I went to start my 2014 2.0TD Cruze. It wouldn't start.... even with a few blasts of starting fluid. There was nothing I could do to start it and had to take another vehicle to work. I'm not impressed, to say the least....
> 
> I've had the car for about 3 months now, with no other notable problems to speak of.


Sounds like you've got a fuel quality problem. 

There's diesel owners in Canada who are dealing with real cold and have had no problems starting. 

What kind of fuel are you using? Is it a winter blend?


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> No, but I will be from now on. To be honest, I didn't know I'd need them. I'll be the first to admit, I took some things for granted... assuming the car would start, based on the newer diesel technology. I guess there are just some things that cannot be engineered to be full-proof.
> 
> As a consideration, though... I didn't know it was ok to put anything in the tank. My friend has a diesel Jetta, and was very clear that they will give you all sorts of grief... and even void the warranty if they find out. No Magnuson-Moss act will save you. I called my dealer's service dept (which is ironically a Chevy-Volkswagen dealer), and he said the exact same thing... but also said Chevy does not really care, because they have no procedure for testing it.
> 
> ...


It sounds like additives should really not be required from what I have read here. I just use them as cheap insurance and I believe a lot do. Granted, from what I have read, they are not perfect themselves, but it's another level of protection.


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## MotleyCruze (Nov 17, 2013)

Just a quick note for this, I used Stanadyne Performance Formula in my 2004 Jetta TDI, and it was terrific. According to my highly accurate butt-dyno, it gave a small but noticeable bump in power/torque and started better in the cold. If you're going to use an additive, Stanadyne is a great choice. They also have a Winter 1000 additive, specifically for cold weather.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Tomko said:


> Sounds like you've got a fuel quality problem.
> 
> There's diesel owners in Canada who are dealing with real cold and have had no problems starting.
> 
> What kind of fuel are you using? Is it a winter blend?


To be honest, I can't remember where I filled up last. It was a non-routine place. Conoco on Airport and Academy. I was on my way home from work and the tank was much lower than I thought it was. I actually passed three stations before I found the Conoco. I was pretty pissed that it took me four stations to find one with diesel, as that's never happened to me before. All the diesel in Colorado Springs is the ultra low sulfur stuff. As far as I know, they should all be on a winter blend. I will call them to verify, though. I seriously doubt they'll tell the truth, or will even know. It's one of those things where if I even have a shadow of a doubt that I got bad fuel from there, it's not worth stopping there again. Though... I normally trust Conoco to have good fuel.



VtTD said:


> It sounds like additives should really not be required from what I have read here. I just use them as cheap insurance and I believe a lot do. Granted, from what I have read, they are not perfect themselves, but it's another level of protection.


Yeah, they definitely should not be required, but they seem like they actually are a real benefit compared to gasoline additives, which are snake oil, IMHO. I had a friend with a turbo-charged V6 Mustang lose an engine because of additives. This was a 10-second, track proven car. He got lazy one day and took it to Jiffy Lube one day, and they had a "free fuel treatment with oil change" special. He didn't realize, drove the car home, and it blew a cylinder. Hopefully the diesel stuff is not that risky. His car was tuned on the ragged edge for timing and AFR, though.



MotleyCruze said:


> Just a quick note for this, I used Stanadyne Performance Formula in my 2004 Jetta TDI, and it was terrific. According to my highly accurate butt-dyno, it gave a small but noticeable bump in power/torque and started better in the cold. If you're going to use an additive, Stanadyne is a great choice. They also have a Winter 1000 additive, specifically for cold weather.


Interesting. I don't trust butt-dynos, though. Everytime I've seen someone follow up with a real dyno, after a spark plug, exhaust, or K&N air filter (not CAI) change, there has never been any measurable difference on the dyno. 

Also, the guy at the Chevy/VW dealer specifically said VW will void your warranty if they find out you're putting additives in your tank. He said there is no such practice with the Chevys. His name is Joe B at the Al Serra dealership in North Colorado Springs, for anyone who wants to chat with him. 


For what it's worth, I came home, but about 6-8oz of the 911 stuff in, and hooked up the oil pan heater plug (which I did not know existed before today). It had been on the trickle charger during the day, to help the battery recover from the beating I gave it this morning. It was just a hair under 15v with the charger going, so it should be good. It's -7F right now (real temp... not wind chill). I'm going to head out in about an hour to see if it'll start.


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## hulkss (Jan 30, 2014)

Nothing special needed other than fuel blended for your climate. It has been -25F here in Chaska, Minnesota this winter. The fuel I use is blended for -40F from SuperAmerica.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

hulkss said:


> Nothing special needed other than fuel blended for your climate. It has been -25F here this winter. The fuel I use is blended for -40F from SuperAmerica.


Where is "here"? I see a "Nordic Diesel" icon in your post, but it's not clickable/readable.

So you theory is just bad fuel? Colorado Springs does get pretty cold, so it would be a *huge *oversight for whoever buys gas to not get the right blend. Conoco doesn't strike me as a franchise that would try to skim the public by buying cheap fuel, either. It's worth a call though. Looking up there number now.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Bah... just called and the guy working had no clue in the world. He said I'd have to call back in the morning and talk with the manager.

The station is at 330 S Academy Blvd, in Colorado Springs. Is there any other way to find out what they're selling?


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## hulkss (Jan 30, 2014)

Flapjack said:


> Where is "here"? I see a "Nordic Diesel" icon in your post, but it's not clickable/readable.


I edited my post to add Chaska, Minnesota. The icon clicks to full size for me OK.
Here's a link: SuperAmerica - Fuel


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> I don't normally bring up old threads often, but I figured I'd chime in here.
> 
> It was -16F this morning in Peyton, CO when I went to start my 2014 2.0TD Cruze. It wouldn't start.... even with a few blasts of starting fluid. There was nothing I could do to start it and had to take another vehicle to work. I'm not impressed, to say the least....
> 
> I've had the car for about 3 months now, with no other notable problems to speak of.


How long did you let it crank? On some of the cold start videos people have posted here, it will crank for a good while before finally firing up.

By the way, I am pretty sure that you can blow the head off if you use starting fluid due to the glow plugs. If the glow plugs were completely disabled, you might be able to get away with it, but that could cause a major BOOM.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

diesel said:


> How long did you let it crank? On some of the cold start videos people have posted here, it will crank for a good while before finally firing up.
> 
> By the way, I am pretty sure that you can blow the head off if you use starting fluid due to the glow plugs. If the glow plugs were completely disabled, you might be able to get away with it, but that could cause a major BOOM.


Thanks for the tip on the starting fluid. I used very little, mostly to hear if there was a change in RPM during cranking. 

As for time spent cranking, it was at least 30 seconds, to as much as 30. As you probably khen you turn the key, the car continues to crank, even if your not holding it in the start position. I'm pretty sure it cranks for 30 seconds, but I've manually held it for longer.

As for the 911, I have roughly 3/4 of a tank in the car now. I put about 1/5 of the bottle (6-8oz) into the tank. Should I try putting more in? It didn't start last night, after putting in the 911 and leaving the oil pan heater plugged in for 4hrs...


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

you can ruin the engine with use of weasel pi$$ w/o it exploding by using too much, drying out the walls

but the proper amount WHILE the engine is cranking will be fine.

i use it all the time starting our equipment at the mine....i have a can at home, i DOUBT i'll ever use it on the cruze


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

It warmed up to 0F today, so I decided to give it another shot. I used another 8oz of 911 and let it sit for 5 minutes. I cranked it for the full time allowed, three times (even holding the key in the "start" position it only lets you crank for about 30 seconds), but it wouldn't start. After the third round of cranking, the battery was pretty much dead. We were able to clear the area around the tires and push it into the garage. I have the oil pan heater plugged in and the battery on a charger. I also have an upright propane can heater near the car... it's warming up the garage pretty well, but it's still damned cold in there. I only had about 3/4 of a tank of propane, so we'll see how long it lasts.

I called the Conoco and talked with the manager. She also said she was new, and that she had no way to tell what kind of diesel was delivered. She is looking into it and will call me back. She did say they do not go through much of it, so it's been a while since the last delivery.

At this point, I've pretty much given up on getting it started. I thought about removing the fuel filter, after reading Diesel's how-to, but I don't feel I should have to on a brand new car. I bought it specifically since I am tired of working on cars and wanted a better commute vehicle. I just swapped the engine in my 2002 Avalanche with 175k miles on it, and am constantly working on my 1000HP E85-powered Mustang. I got this car because I have very little time due to work and family commitments... and here I am, stuck. I'm so disappointed and pissed off. I am a gearhead by nature, and I don't want to deal with this. It's impacted my ability to work... to the tune of over $1000 now. There is no way on earth a 'normal' consumer would put up with this. 

I'm pretty sure I will have to call GM. To compound matters, we have a nasty driveway (see attached). I seriously doubt they will even attempt to tow it out of here. The last time we needed GM service was on our 2009 Traverse. Because the North dealer was over 25 miles away (26.2, to be exact), they forced me to have it serviced at the southern store. That place is full of a bunch of jerks who have no concept of customer service. They originally told me the water pump that failed was not under warranty and they could not even touch it without a "deposit". I knew it was covered, so I had to call the GM 800 number to get them to call the dealership.

Depending on what they do in this situation, I may never buy another GM again....


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

That's a major PITA brother - and you have my sympathy. But honestly, you're almost the only one who's run into this problem. And it sounds like you should be saying that you'll never buy fuel at CONOCO again. 

If the car is demonstrated to be at fault you'll have my full and complete public apologies. 

But as a Gearhead you know that pouring some solution into the top of your fuel tank doesn't mean that it will somehow magically work its way into the fuel lines and injectors where the diesel has likely waxed everything shut. 

Reliability is one of the reasons why I always buy GM - and not some foreign job. We all took risks as early adopters of these Cruze Diesels but we did so knowing that they were tested to start unassisted at -20. 

I feel confident that it will start provided it hasn't been damaged by some of your well intentioned, yet understandably aggressive, remedial measures. I know what it's like to rely on a set of wheels to earn a paycheque, and so I'm really pulling for you to get back on the road as soon as possible. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> At this point, I've pretty much given up on getting it started. I thought about removing the fuel filter, after reading Diesel's how-to, but I don't feel I should have to on a brand new car.
> 
> Depending on what they do in this situation, I may never buy another GM again....


Flapjack, I sincerely hope your troubles are resolved soon and without much more issue. 

That being said, I really believe this has little to nothing to do with the product (GM Cruze), and more to do with the fuel. Your is only the third case that I know of with trouble starting or running the diesel Cruze in cold temps despite many of us living in extremely cold climates including at least a couple from our neighbor country to the north. If you look back a couple pages on the diesel forum, you'll see numerous threads on cold starting and operation of the Cruze diesel. It was pretty much the theme of CruzeTalk a couple of weeks ago during the worst of the cold. Most of them have been success stories and commenting on how the CTD runs in the extreme cold, but there have been a couple issues. One (Luigi) seems to have been almost certainly a fuel issue, and another (revjpeterson) also seems to be a fuel issue last I knew as his issues were resolved with warmer temps.

The hard fact is, gelling is one of the issues inherent with driving a diesel of any kind. For those of us who live in cold climates, we must be _very_ vigilant of what fuel goes into our cars. I'm not saying this is your fault in any way, just that it is a fact of driving diesels in the cold. It's hard to believe that some stations sell untreated #2 diesel in cold climates, but some do.

I live in one of the coldest parts of the lower 48 states in northern Minnesota, and I have yet to have an issue with my diesel Cruze despite having temps approaching 30 degrees below zero at times this winter and 10 below being more common than 10 above for the last month. I even left my car parked outside for nearly 52 hours at an unsheltered airport lot last week with temps ranging from +8 to -17 during the time I was gone. I returned to a car that started hard, but ran just fine. I've been using straight #2 diesel with a double-dose of Power Service white bottle all winter.

Given my experience and reading those of the very few who have had gelled systems this winter, I can only assume it has a lot to do with the quality of the fuel, something we end-users have little control over and are taking a gamble every time we fill up. As far as the car itself goes, there is very little that can be done to prevent gelled fuel when the car is not running. Once it is gelled, about the only thing to get it going again is warm temps or blow out the lines and filter as Luigi found out.

For your sake, I sincerely hope your situation improves.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Sorry about your issues. It's clearly junk fuel. Honestly GM shouldn't have to do a thing but I hope they do for your sake! Please update us, if you get the car in the garage above 32 for a few hours and it still doesn't start then carry on with the GM hate


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

PanJet said:


> another (revjpeterson) also seems to be a fuel issue last I knew as his issues were resolved with warmer temps.


I am one of the ones who has had a cold starting issue with my Cruze (last Friday), and as far as I can observe so far, it was absolutely my fault. It certainly wasn't the car's fault, as it started flawlessly at -18F a few weeks prior when properly fueled. 

I was trying to pinch pennies on my fuel costs, so instead of filling up with fuel treated to a known temperature, I have been going to a station where I can choose my own blend. Last Wednesday, I knowingly filled with straight, untreated #2 Diesel that was posted as good to 4 degrees Fahrenheit. Friday morning, I started the car at 1F, after an overnight low of -5F, and could not keep it running for more than 30 seconds. After limping the car into the garage and aiming 125,000 BTUs at it for 75 minutes, I was running and back on the road. After adding 3 gal. of #1 Diesel I have been driving for 6 days with no problems at temps +/- 5 degrees of zero. Conclusion seems to be that the fuel was not fully gelled, but had enough wax coalesced to plug my filter to the point it couldn't provide adequate fuel supply to keep the motor running more than 30 sec. I didn't attempt to start this morning at -11F, because I was driving my Jeep instead, but tomorrow morning will be a good test when I take off in -5F temps at 6AM. 

We do have to be careful what we put in our tanks. Unlike me, it sounds like you might be a victim of a station's providing inappropriate fuel rather than your own risky choices, but it sounds like it's very likely a fuel issue. If it starts after warming up, it was most likely fuel. You will need to either apply significant heat to the car for an hour or two (like I did) or get the whole car a few degrees warm enough to un-gel the fuel for an extended period of time (12-18 hours - it takes a long time to warm through past all the sheet metal, sound insulation and all the way through a whole tank of fuel buried in the middle of it all). Your oil pan heater won't help you if the car isn't warm enough to un-gel the fuel in the tank, filter, and lines. If it still doesn't start after that, then you're probably looking at a malfunction that GM can and should correct for you. 

Wishing you the best.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

yep, its fuel not the car manufacturer

if your car can make it up and down your driveway, the tow truck can 

a tarp/blanket/parachute over the car and over the heater will help exponentially, thats where torpedo heaters excel, forced fan and LOW to the ground, can get the heat under the car where the fuel lines are

ive gotten a semi running in <2hrs with a torpedo heater under it and parachute over it, and in much colder.

the placement of the fuel filter is a total pita in these situations, but such is life.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Average Winter Temperatures -- Colorado Springs

average winter temp for Colorado Springs is 30f, thats over 30yrs of data....so you got stuck in an unseasonably cold spell, the fuel wasnt up to the task


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

boraz said:


> a tarp/blanket/parachute over the car and over the heater will help exponentially, thats where torpedo heaters excel, forced fan and LOW to the ground, can get the heat under the car where the fuel lines are
> 
> ive gotten a semi running in <2hrs with a torpedo heater under it and parachute over it, and in much colder.
> 
> the placement of the fuel filter is a total pita in these situations, but such is life.


That's for sure re placement of the fuel filter. I pretty much pointed my heater at the right-rear tire (far enough away not to burn/melt anything) to blow heat as close to the filger as possible and warm it up. I thought about jacking that corner up to get more warm air under there, but decided it probably wasn't necessary since I had it in the garage (roof performing the function of the parachute in your scenario) with the air temp. around the car approaching 60 and the air blowing at the car being much hotter.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Thanks for the help and advice, guys... but this not my first experience with diesels. While I may not have outright owned one, I was a Liquid Fuels Maintenance technician in the USAF for 10 years before I commissioned. I have worked with every kind of fuel, from JP-4, JP-5, JP-8, mogas, diesel, avgas, and even converted natural gas engines. I've driven dumptrucks, plows, dueces, humvees, excavators, and nearly every other type of vehicle in the USAF fleet. I have NEVER had an issue starting an engine that I could not resolve. The hardest time I've ever had with starting a vehicle of any kind is a 49cc cheapass Chinese knock-off bike I got for my daughter last year (had to rebuild the carb). That being said, I paid over 25k for this car. I do not expect to EVER have to ask a commercial chain gas station, by any brand, what kind of gas they have in the middle of winter. What are they going to tell me... that they haven't done the responsible thing and buy the right fuel for the weather conditions?

I finally got the car started.... but it was only after sitting in the garage for four hours with the propane heater blasting right next to it.

To me, after all the vehicles and systems I've worked on, including diesel generators, I've never seen a vehicle not at least start due to bad fuel. Sputter, stutter, misfire, yes. Not start? No. I can even put an full tank of E85 in my Mustang, when it is tuned for 91 octane, and still been able to start it and drive it home. In fact, kerosine-based engines have been the most flexible and tolerant to bad fuel than any gas engine I've seen. It is nothing to fill a generator with JP-4 or JP-8 and still have it start and run all day long. There have even been instances of people flying jets with freaking diesel in them... and GM engineers can't build an engine that is tolerant of range of diesel found at the average gas station? 

Sorry... but this is inexcusable. You can't just blame it on the gas station. The lady at Conoco said she has never had a single call from a customer who couldn't start a vehicle based on filling up at their station... and you know what? I believe her. I did not get the impression she was lying, and I have three kids and man people over the years I've had to supervise... I know when someone is lying. Can you imagine someone buying a new gas-powered car accepting the excuse that it wouldn't start due to bad gas? For a large gas provider like Conoco, that is a pretty serious accusation to levy. If I were a betting man, I would guess their fuel is within "spec" and that something is mostly likely "out of spec" with my Cruze.

Joe at Al Serra said I'm the only diesel owner who's been processed through their service department. He just did not know know much about them. All his help and advice was based in what he could look up in the computer, and what he knew from working on the GM line of diesel trucks. He is a dang good technician. I have been taking my vehicles to him for years. If he is not familiar with a particular vehicle, it's because the sample pool is not big enough to have developed a huge set of troubleshooting/diagnosis skills for the particular model. The fact that these vehicles are not all over the place yet is why I am "almost the only one" who has had a problem. For all I know, I could be the only person who has gotten on the internet and started griping about it. 

Just accepting things like this and insinuating the owner of a brand new car did not do his due diligence in selecting a gas station to fill up is just plain irresponsible, and does not further clean diesel vehicles as a viable alternative to shitty hybrids or 0.3L, 4.5HP gasoline powered hypermilers. I work too many hours a week, and am involved in too many other professional and community organizations to be testing the fuel I purchase with a test tube every time I fill up. But what you guys are saying is that I am subject to being stranded anytime I happen to get bad gas from a station. Sorry, that is crap. In any other community, be it motorcycles, guitars, Mustangs, or video cards, that blind acceptance of a brand is called being a fan boy (really... no insult intended). This was not some magical aligning of the planets. This was my brand new car, not starting for three days, when it only got down to -16F. Your guys' cars may start on the first crank in -100F temperatures. Mine does not. Sorry... but when I'm without a vehicle for 3 days... I could care less what your cars are doing. Mine is not working the way it should, and should be designed to tolerate any range in specs for commercial fuel. 

The last thing I want to say is that just because I'm the "only" person to have a problem (searching the internet shows I am NOT), does not mean something could not be wrong with the car, or designed poorly.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

revjpeterson said:


> We do have to be careful what we put in our tanks. Unlike me, it sounds like you might be a victim of a station's providing inappropriate fuel rather than your own risky choices, but it sounds like it's very likely a fuel issue. If it starts after warming up, it was most likely fuel. You will need to either apply significant heat to the car for an hour or two (like I did) or get the whole car a few degrees warm enough to un-gel the fuel for an extended period of time (12-18 hours - it takes a long time to warm through past all the sheet metal, sound insulation and all the way through a whole tank of fuel buried in the middle of it all). Your oil pan heater won't help you if the car isn't warm enough to un-gel the fuel in the tank, filter, and lines. If it still doesn't start after that, then you're probably looking at a malfunction that GM can and should correct for you.





boraz said:


> yep, its fuel not the car manufacturer
> 
> if your car can make it up and down your driveway, the tow truck can
> 
> ...





boraz said:


> Average Winter Temperatures -- Colorado Springs
> 
> average winter temp for Colorado Springs is 30f, thats over 30yrs of data....so you got stuck in an unseasonably cold spell, the fuel wasnt up to the task


Seriously... actually go back, read your posts, and actually look at what you are saying. Really look at your words. These are nothing but excuses. I have not known a single person, with any other vehicle that I can think of, in any way shape or form, that had to wrap their car in freaking blankets, point heaters at them, and carefully select gas stations to ensure their car will start on a cold morning. 

I think if you step back and actually listen to what you are saying, you will agree *this is not right. *It is not just due to a choice in buying a diesel over a gas engine. This is not acceptable. Period. These problems that you are describing are not the norm. The only time I have seen friends' cars not start in bad weather is either when they're a) over 10 years old, with high mileage, b) poorly maintained, or c) some combination of both. The instruction manual says absolutely nothing about having to put additives in your tank, yet you guys talk about it as if it is normal. If the manual, or even the dealer said I should do this, it would be my fault. I should be able to fill up at any place that sells diesel and be able to start my car the next day. 100% of new car owners expect that level of reliability and tolerance in fuel. You guys do not, and that's your issue... not mine. I am in no way responsible for what happened to my car. Stop insinuating I am... please.

I likely will not be shopping at Conoco again, but this could happen WITH ANY GAS STATION. Even if they are running a winter blend, there is no full-proof way to ensure that, 100% of the time, they will get fuel that lives up to the standards you guys are talking about. A vehicle should be designed to run a wide enough tolerance of fuel quality to prevent this. I am willing to bet that I am the *only *person who bought diesel from Conoco on Friday, the 7th of February, to have had their car not start Monday morning. I would bet my next paycheck on it. That would either be 1) a problem with the car, or 2) a problem with the car's design. Period.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Thanks for the help and advice, guys... but this not my first experience with diesels. While I may not have outright owned one, I was a Liquid Fuels Maintenance technician in the USAF for 10 years before I commissioned. I have worked with every kind of fuel, from JP-4, JP-5, JP-8, mogas, diesel, avgas, and even converted natural gas engines. I've driven dumptrucks, plows, dueces, humvees, excavators, and nearly every other type of vehicle in the USAF fleet. I have NEVER had an issue starting an engine that I could not resolve. The hardest time I've ever had with starting a vehicle of any kind is a 49cc cheapass Chinese knock-off bike I got for my daughter last year (had to rebuild the carb). That being said, I paid over 25k for this car. I do not expect to EVER have to ask a commercial chain gas station, by any brand, what kind of gas they have in the middle of winter. What are they going to tell me... that they haven't done the responsible thing and buy the right fuel for the weather conditions?
> 
> I finally got the car started.... but it was only after sitting in the garage for four hours with the propane heater blasting right next to it.
> 
> ...


A couple of things:

First congratulations on getting your car started. I think we were all pulling for you with the belief that warmer ambient temperatures would solve your problem. 

Second you're entitled to your emotions. 

Third if you still feel this way in 24 hours than my suggestion is that you flip this car like a fried egg because you will never have confidence in it again. 


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

For what it's worth, my dealer told me I should use additives below 0F when I asked. Diesel is diesel. If it's not treated/blended right, it's going to gel.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Seriously... actually go back, read your posts, and actually look at what you are saying. Really look at your words.


Okay. Let's do that based on the facts at hand. 



Flapjack said:


> I was on my way home from work and the tank was much lower than I thought it was. I actually passed three stations before I found the Conoco. I was pretty pissed that it took me four stations to find one with diesel, as that's never happened to me before.


So your tank was low and so you filled up an almost complete tank at a service station you were unfamiliar with. 



Flapjack said:


> I called the Conoco and talked with the manager. She also said she was new, and that she had no way to tell what kind of diesel was delivered. She is looking into it and will call me back. She did say they do not go through much of it, so it's been a while since the last delivery.


The service station manager tells you that they don't sell much diesel and she has no idea how old her diesel is. So it could be a mix of diesel blended for warmer temperatures. 



boraz said:


> Average Winter Temperatures -- Colorado Springs
> 
> average winter temp for Colorado Springs is 30f, thats over 30yrs of data....so you got stuck in an unseasonably cold spell...


Your community is struck with unexpected low temperatures. 



Flapjack said:


> I am willing to bet that I am the *only *person who bought diesel from Conoco on Friday, the 7th of February, to have had their car not start Monday morning.


By the service station manager's own admission you may have been the only one to take on a complete tank of their diesel. Maybe even the only one for some days. If not then possibly the only one who's diesel was left in an unsheltered environment for a protracted period of time. 

Don't get me wrong brother. I'm not blaming you. But I'm not sure you're coming at this as objectively as you might be in another day or two.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Tomko said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> First congratulations on getting your car started. I think we were all pulling for you with the belief that warmer ambient temperatures would solve your problem.


Thank you. I really do appreciate your guys' help. I'm a bit miffed at feeling like this was painted as 'my fault', but you all seem like a good bunch. Hopefully I'll be around for a while.



> Second you're entitled to your emotions.


It is hard to not be emotional, when your brand new car won't start for three days, and people on an online internet forum say it's my fault for filling up at Conoco. 



> Third if you still feel this way in 24 hours than my suggestion is that you flip this car like a fried egg because you will never have confidence in it again.


This issue will be resolved, one way or another. At this moment in time, I am treating it like a potentially bad choice, as an early adopter in the CTD platform. Just like other first-model year purchases, I'll probably ride it out. This car will be at Chevy this weekend, I will have a loaner, and they will go over it with a fine-toothed comb (if I have my way). If it turns out to have been bad gas, I will berate everyone in the Conoco chain all the way up to the CEO... if he'll listen. 

I will make sure this gets documented with GM. If it does happen again, I will keep documenting it so I can return the car if needed. I am not going to try and get out of my loan and flip the car. That's just not how I roll. In the event it does happen again, it will rule out bad gas in my mind. If this car was designed the way it should've been, the chances of it happening again should *not *be that great. 

However, I stand by my stance that I have never seen nor heard of a car, gas or diesel, not starting up because of bad gas. Yes, cars can run like crap with bad gas... I get that. That has happened to me. But there is no changing the fact that this car should've been designed to start under a very likely scenario of non-winter blend diesel on a cold day. Putting the fuel filter in the engine bay would be a good start. Having a source of heat during inclement weather on the fuel filter and/or common fuel rail would be another good start. Especially with a plug for an oil pan heater. They could have heat from that same circuit on those items. Any safety hazard could be mitigated by good engineering. I have seen a match dropped into a can of diesel without igniting....

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VtTD said:


> For what it's worth, my dealer told me I should use additives below 0F when I asked. Diesel is diesel. If it's not treated/blended right, it's going to gel.


The GM service guy flat out told me that could void the warranty, but in his experience, GM doesn't. He said, unfortunately, that is not the case with VW. He said several people had warranty issues due to putting additives in their tank.

Either way, I will be using additives to treat my fuel in cold weather, trying to find a reliable gas station, etc... but I still believe that is absolutely ludicrous. That is not what I signed up for when I bought this car.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Tomko said:


> Okay. Let's do that based on the facts at hand.


Thanks for the replies. I actually enjoy the back-and-forth. It makes me feel better, haha.



> So your tank was low and so you filled up an almost complete tank at a service station you were unfamiliar with.


I don't normally go to gas stations I do not trust. Ironically, I was pretty low, so I would've stopped at any of the other stations I passed, if they had sold diesel. The Conoco happened to be the first station I passed with diesel, but is also a place I confidently buy fuel from. Before the twin turbo V8 in my Mustang, I had a supercharged 4.0L V6 running 450 RWHP. It was so ragged-edge as far as tuning goes, I had to be very careful of what I put in it... especially since 91 octane is the best you can get from 99% of the station in Colorado Springs. I only filled up the Mustang at Conoco or Shell. I've had no reason not to trust either place until now.



> The service station manager tells you that they don't sell much diesel and she has no idea how old her diesel is. So it could be a mix of diesel blended for warmer temperatures.


She was going through months worth of fuel delivery invoices. For every diesel delivery, she had many more gas ones. She just relocated to this Conoco from another, but has managed the chains for several years. She came across as very honest, and was definitely concerned. She did not just blow me off, but said she would do some research and took my name/number. She said I should hear back from her by tomorrow. Trust me... I'm hoping and praying she tells me they were still selling a summer blend. 



> Your community is struck with unexpected low temperatures.


Yes, but not extreme by any means, when compared to other markets this car is sold in.



> By the service station manager's own admission you may have been the only one to take on a complete tank of their diesel. Maybe even the only one for some days. If not then possibly the only one who's diesel was left in an unsheltered environment for a protracted period of time.


That is one helluva assumption. She also said she was off the whole weekend. Academy is a very, very busy road. I'm sure they sold plenty of diesel. She was simply talking about in comparison to gas. I don't know the exact ratio, but I could easily see someone saying "not a lot" of diesel was sold, when compared to gas. 



> Don't get me wrong brother. I'm not blaming you. But I'm not sure you're coming at this as objectively as you might be in another day or two.


Without doubt, I will cool down. But to not run this down would only run me the risk of getting in this situation again. It might be easier to sit back and say... "Oh well... I just got some bad fuel, and that's how diesel is", but it takes a lot more diligence to put up with the dealership and have them actually test the car, consult with national service resources, and see if there is something else that could've caused this.

My theory is that there is something else, not fuel-related, that did not like the negative temps. That would explain why fuel from a reputable source could possibly NOT be the problem. If they had a good, winter blend in their tanks, and my car still didn't start, it would have to be something else that temporarily failed due to the cold.

What I have not told you guys is that I had other bizarre things happening to the car during those three days. At times, every sensor in the car seemed to go ballistic. The digital info center said everything from "check ABS", "check side mirror detection", "open and close driver side window", to about 20 other similar messages. I don't remember them all verbatim... but there were a lot. They did not come on every time I tried to start it, but they were there at several times throughout my three-day adventure. I often found myself thinking "What would this thing be doing if it were REALLY cold".


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Having a source of heat during inclement weather on the fuel filter and/or common fuel rail would be another good start. Especially with a plug for an oil pan heater. They could have heat from that same circuit on those items. Any safety hazard could be mitigated by good engineering. I have seen a match dropped into a can of diesel without igniting....


There is an electric heating element incorporated in the fuel filter. As we understand it so far it is engaged when the key is placed in the run position. 

But we are still learning about these RPO LUZ engines and powertrain, and will know more once GM releases the service manual. 


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Tomko said:


> There is an electric heating element incorporated in the fuel filter. As we understand it so far it is engaged when the key is placed in the run position.
> 
> But we are still learning about these RPO LUZ engines and Powertrain will know more once GM releases the service manual.


Well, I will try to stay involved here, learn more, and share more. I'm not giving up on this car yet, but there are room for a LOT of improvements. I saw a thread earlier that talked about things that would make this car great. I'll probably add to that soon, but I just haven't had a lot of free time... and usually do not, unless I'm stuck at home because my **** car won't start.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

hulkss said:


> I edited my post to add Chaska, Minnesota. The icon clicks to full size for me OK.
> Here's a link: SuperAmerica - Fuel


With the extreme cold weather starting issues some seen to be having with diesels, I think it would be great for someone to compile a list of available low temperature diesel fuels. Seen yesterday Cenex also has a very cold winter blend. https://www.cenex.com/portal/server.pt/community/1brands___products/453/cenex_winter_fuels


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## hulkss (Jan 30, 2014)

Flapjack said:


> ......this car should've been designed to start under a very likely scenario of non-winter blend diesel on a cold day.


I'm sure that is technically possible but it would mean keeping the entire fuel delivery system warm above the cold filter plugging point. Wikipedia:"cloud point refers to the temperature below which wax in diesel or biowax in biodiesels form a cloudy appearance. The presence of solidified waxes thickens the oil and clogs fuel filters and injectors in engines."

The typical cloud point of Diesel #2 is +14F, diesel #1 is -40F, Soybean biodiesel is +34F.

I would not pay for such a costly heated fuel system. Before I purchased any fuel for my new CTD, I did find it a hassle to search for a fuel station that provided documentation of proper winter fuel. I appreciate the efforts of SuperAmerica to document and provide a good winter diesel product (no affiliation other than as a customer). I do not use any fuel additives.

Here's the brochure from the Cenex link above, Wintermaster looks very good: https://secure.chsinc.com/portal/ch...415_237658_0_0_18/chs4490_Brochure_LR0925.pdf


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Flapjack said:


> I called the Conoco and talked with the manager. She also said she was new, and that she had no way to tell what kind of diesel was delivered. She is looking into it and will call me back. She did say they do not go through much of it, so *it's been a while since the last delivery*.


I highlighted your problem. Yes, Colorado Springs gets cold but it hasn't been that cold along the Front Range this winter until the last week or so. I suspect the diesel at that Conoco was still blended for the warmer weather we've been having.

I do know that Ed Bozarth Lone Tree had a CDT on their lot during the first cold snap this winter and they had to push it into their service bay. After letting the car warm up it started right up, so you should be ok once your battery is recharged and the fuel has warmed up. Fortunately we're heading into a few days of warmer weather.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

boraz said:


> Average Winter Temperatures -- Colorado Springs
> 
> average winter temp for Colorado Springs is 30f, thats over 30yrs of data....so you got stuck in an unseasonably cold spell, the fuel wasnt up to the task


Those are the averages for the full 24 hour day cycles. Nights are frequently down to the low 20s and even into the single digits, especially in January and early February. This week we have seen overnight lows as low as -17 F.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Flapjack said:


> Thanks for the replies. I actually enjoy the back-and-forth. It makes me feel better, haha.
> 
> 
> I don't normally go to gas stations I do not trust. Ironically, I was pretty low, so I would've stopped at any of the other stations I passed, if they had sold diesel. The Conoco happened to be the first station I passed with diesel, but is also a place I confidently buy fuel from. Before the twin turbo V8 in my Mustang, I had a supercharged 4.0L V6 running 450 RWHP. It was so ragged-edge as far as tuning goes, I had to be very careful of what I put in it... especially since 91 octane is the best you can get from 99% of the station in Colorado Springs. I only filled up the Mustang at Conoco or Shell. I've had no reason not to trust either place until now.
> ...


Having lived near Jet Wing and S. Academy for several years, this isn't a section of Academy Blvd that I would expect to see a lot of diesels. Combine this with the station manager finding very few receipts for purchasing diesel fuel really lends credence to the theory that the fuel wasn't blended for sub-zero temperatures. So while the station may go through a lot of gasoline it's very likely it doesn't go through enough diesel to handle sudden drops in temperatures.



Flapjack said:


> My theory is that there is something else, not fuel-related, that did not like the negative temps. That would explain why fuel from a reputable source could possibly NOT be the problem. If they had a good, winter blend in their tanks, and my car still didn't start, it would have to be something else that temporarily failed due to the cold.
> 
> What I have not told you guys is that I had other bizarre things happening to the car during those three days. At times, every sensor in the car seemed to go ballistic. The digital info center said everything from "check ABS", "check side mirror detection", "open and close driver side window", to about 20 other similar messages. I don't remember them all verbatim... but there were a lot. They did not come on every time I tried to start it, but they were there at several times throughout my three-day adventure. I often found myself thinking "What would this thing be doing if it were REALLY cold".


This sounds normal for a Cruze that has no electrical power. At least in your case it's from battery exhaustion from trying to start your car with gelled diesel.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> My theory is that there is something else, not fuel-related, that did not like the negative temps. That would explain why fuel from a reputable source could possibly NOT be the problem. If they had a good, winter blend in their tanks, and my car still didn't start, it would have to be something else that temporarily failed due to the cold.


The only thing that I can think of is a possible failure in the fuel filter heating system. You could ask the dealership to check this but they'll likely charge you if there's no issue found. 


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

obermd said:


> Those are the averages for the full 24 hour day cycles. Nights are frequently down to the low 20s and even into the single digits, especially in January and early February. This week we have seen overnight lows as low as -17 F.


you just made my point


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## titanman2789 (Oct 27, 2013)

Well this thread was an entertaining read. 

This is still a diesel vehicle. Fuel could gel. Obviously that's what happened here. I'm surprised with all of the experience flapjack has that the car still wouldn't start. 

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## ParisTNDude (Oct 7, 2013)

I had two diesels while living in Cheyenne, WY and both were very hard starters...a VW Rabbit and a Chevy LUV (Isuzu) 4X4. I took the truck hunting at Encampment and was always scared the thing wouldn't start, but it always did...needed lots of cranking and thankfully had a very powerful battery. That was a whole bunch of years ago. When I considered the CTD, I thought about the winter experiences in Wyoming and cringed, but since I live in Tennessee now, there are no problems even in near zero temps. I can understand your frustrations, though.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

-26F car started like normal, wife is off shopping


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> To me, after all the vehicles and systems I've worked on, including diesel generators, I've never seen a vehicle not at least start due to bad fuel. Sputter, stutter, misfire, yes. Not start? No.


You seem to be misunderstanding what happens when diesel fuel gels. It simply does not flow, period. No fuel flow=no start no matter what car it is in. I’ve personally experienced diesel engines die on the road from gelling, and that was 20 years ago. The modern diesels are such that filter tolerances are tighter than ever before to protect the injection system. It takes less than ever for gelling to stop a diesel.



Flapjack said:


> Just accepting things like this and insinuating the owner of a brand new car did not do his due diligence in selecting a gas station to fill up is just plain irresponsible


Nobody is “just accepting” anything except that diesel fuel is susceptible to gelling in cold temps. I think the above posts have well proven that it is highly likely there was fuel at the station that was not properly blended for the temperatures you experienced.


Flapjack said:


> Mine is not working the way it should, and should be designed to tolerate any range in specs for commercial fuel.


_Except_ when the fuel is not blended for those conditions; it is a well known fact that straight, untreated #2 diesel will gel in temps far warmer than what you experienced. No engine can run with gelled fuel.



Flapjack said:


> The last thing I want to say is that just because I'm the "only" person to have a problem (searching the internet shows I am NOT), does not mean something could not be wrong with the car, or designed poorly.


You’re absolutely right, except every case has been almost proven to be a case of gelled fuel, and is likely the same for you. Short of having a total fuel heating system that you can plug into the wall, there is literally nothing GM could do to fix the problem of fuel gelling on a not running car sitting outside in temps well below the gel point of untreated fuel.


Flapjack said:


> Seriously... actually go back, read your posts, and actually look at what you are saying. Really look at your words. These are nothing but excuses. I have not known a single person, with any other vehicle that I can think of, in any way shape or form, that had to wrap their car in freaking blankets, point heaters at them, and carefully select gas stations to ensure their car will start on a cold morning.


Well now you know at least one. I grew up on a farm in the plains of Montana. On more than one occasion we got a bad batch of fuel in the winter, and doing exactly what is described above is how we got our tractors running every single morning.



Flapjack said:


> I think if you step back and actually listen to what you are saying, you will agree *this is not right. *It is not just due to a choice in buying a diesel over a gas engine. This is not acceptable. Period. These problems that you are describing are not the norm.


Actually, it is the norm for diesel vehicles. Cold temps + untreated fuel =gelled fuel. Gelled fuel _does not flow_ through the filter and injection system = no fuel to the engine = no start. Quite normal for a diesel.


Flapjack said:


> 100% of new car owners expect that level of reliability and tolerance in fuel. You guys do not, and that's your issue... not mine. I am in no way responsible for what happened to my car. Stop insinuating I am... please.


First off, _nobody_ on here is saying this is _your_ fault. In fact, in my previous post, I very clearly said it is not your fault. However, we are saying that it is also likely not the car’s fault either.
We all expect the same level of reliability from a brand new car that you do, but this is a diesel car. Diesel fuel gels in cold temps if untreated.



Flapjack said:


> Even if they are running a winter blend, there is no full-proof way to ensure that, 100% of the time, they will get fuel that lives up to the standards you guys are talking about. A vehicle should be designed to run a wide enough tolerance of fuel quality to prevent this…That would either be 1) a problem with the car, or 2) a problem with the car's design. Period.


There are no “standards” that we’re talking about. It is very simple. Straight, untreated #2 diesel can begin gelling at temps as high as nearly 18 degrees F the same as water freezes at 32 degrees. There is literally nothing a car manufacturer can do to prevent this short of heating the entire system somehow when the car is not running.


VtTD said:


> For what it's worth, my dealer told me I should use additives below 0F when I asked. Diesel is diesel. If it's not treated/blended right, it's going to gel.


Agree 100%


Flapjack said:


> Thank you. I really do appreciate your guys' help. I'm a bit miffed at feeling like this was painted as 'my fault', but you all seem like a good bunch. Hopefully I'll be around for a while.


Again, _nobody_, is painting this as _your_ fault, and yes, we all hope that you stick around for a while. There aren't that many of us CTD owners, but for the most part we're a tight-nit group that helps each other out, and we'd love to have you on-board.



Flapjack said:


> I will make sure this gets documented with GM. If it does happen again, I will keep documenting it so I can return the car if needed. I am not going to try and get out of my loan and flip the car. That's just not how I roll. In the event it does happen again, it will rule out bad gas in my mind. If this car was designed the way it should've been, the chances of it happening again should *not *be that great.


Untreated #2 diesel fuel will always gel at temps well above -16 degrees. If you happen to get untreated fuel in your tank and the temp drops to -16, the same thing will happen.



Flapjack said:


> However, I stand by my stance that I have never seen nor heard of a car, gas or diesel, not starting up because of bad gas. Yes, cars can run like crap with bad gas... I get that. That has happened to me. But there is no changing the fact that this car should've been designed to start under a very likely scenario of non-winter blend diesel on a cold day.


Again, we aren’t talking about “bad gas” like its old gas that has lost some of its volatility. We’re talking about fuel that simply _does not flow_ in cold temps.


Flapjack said:


> Putting the fuel filter in the engine bay would be a good start. Having a source of heat during inclement weather on the fuel filter and/or common fuel rail would be another good start.


The system is already set up for warming the fuel when the car is running. Absolutely none of those things will help you when it is shut off.


Flapjack said:


> Especially with a plug for an oil pan heater. They could have heat from that same circuit on those items.


Okay, I’m sure it would be possible to heat the whole fuel system off of a plug-in, but it would add hundreds if not thousands of dollars to the cost of the car for an extremely rare few cases. I for one will take dealing with fuel through other methods (treating, using #1 diesel) over that, but to each his own.



Flapjack said:


> Either way, I will be using additives to treat my fuel in cold weather, trying to find a reliable gas station, etc... but I still believe that is absolutely ludicrous. That is not what I signed up for when I bought this car.


Please know I am 100% supportive of you and your situation, but this is one area where I will be very frank with you. If you aren’t willing to deal with diesel in cold temps, you should not have purchased a diesel car. I know truckers who have to be careful about filling their tanks in warmer climates where the fuel is untreated and driving north into the cold because of diesel fuel gelling.
I’m sorry, but you bought a diesel. Being vigilant about the fuel that goes into it is part of the experience. Ask the VW guys who have lost their fuel pumps. Again, this is not your fault, just the nature of owning a diesel.



Flapjack said:


> Yes, but not extreme by any means, when compared to other markets this car is sold in.


It doesn’t matter. It’s the fuel that changes in different markets, not the car. If your region’s average temps are well above 0 degrees, they are not likely to carry diesel fuel that can handle -16 as it is more expensive, less efficient, and harder on the car’s fuel system. Regions where we regularly see the kind of temps you experienced will have fuel blended and treated for those conditions, which is why we aren’t having your same problem. The car is clearly designed to handle extremely cold temps. I and many others are testaments to that. Those that have had problems have also operated in these same temps most of the winter with no trouble, but one tank of untreated fuel is all it takes. Revjpeterson can attest to that.



Flapjack said:


> My theory is that there is something else, not fuel-related, that did not like the negative temps.


 Possible, but not likely. By all means, check into it, but I don’t think you’re going to find anything.


Tomko said:


> The only thing that I can think of is a possible failure in the fuel filter heating system. You could ask the dealership to check this but they'll likely charge you if there's no issue found.


Possible but unlikely in my opinion. Even the fuel filter heating couldn’t ungel it in that short of time to get the fuel flowing just before starting. _If_ anything is wrong with the car, it is most likely the glow plugs.


Flap, I sincerely wish you the very best, and I hope your problems resolve.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

PanJet has done an excellent job of laying out the realities of diesel ownership for us.


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## TD_Cruze (Jan 15, 2014)

IMO, during the winter months, always put some kind of anti-gell diesel additive in the tank with fill-ups. Just my .02


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Very interesting thread. Welcome Flapjack, I am sorry you had that experience. I do agree with you that a new car should not be so sensitive to fuel. I think there are some good points here that could possibly be incorporated into future iterations of the car to make it better able to tolerate improperly treated fuel.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Sure doesn't sound like you've operated a diesel in your life if the simple reality of gelled improperly treated fuel doesn't register. Our Kobelco SK260 was gelled and wouldn't start yesterday at -2F due to improperly treated fuel. Torches and diesel 911 in the fuel filters and we were able to get it up and running for the day. 

I guess it's a piece of **** and should toss it, manufacturer's fault it gelled and wouldn't start.

ps, my cruze diesel fired right up without hesitation to get to the jobsite. Then again, I accept that it's my responsibility and no one else's to make sure it's prepared for the weather at hand.


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## Suns_PSD (Feb 16, 2013)

This was purely a gelled fuel problem as proven by the fact that spraying starter fluid made no difference. An engine can't run no matter how good it is with no fuel in the combustion chamber. Unless radiant heat from the engine block heater also heats up the fuel, mostly the fuel filter, it wouldn't make any difference at all if it had been plugged in. 
For Christ sake, don't ever spray starter fluid in to a glow plug equipped engine! 

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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

KpaxFAQ said:


> Sure doesn't sound like you've operated a diesel in your life if the simple reality of gelled improperly treated fuel doesn't register. Our Kobelco SK260 was gelled and wouldn't start yesterday at -2F due to improperly treated fuel. Torches and diesel 911 in the fuel filters and we were able to get it up and running for the day.
> 
> I guess it's a piece of **** and should toss it, manufacturer's fault it gelled and wouldn't start.
> 
> ps, my cruze diesel fired right up without hesitation to get to the jobsite. Then again, I accept that it's my responsibility and no one else's to make sure it's prepared for the weather at hand.


That is a bit offensive if directed at me. I certainly know my diesels. I also feel like it's possible to build heater systems into a car that can deal with a gelled fuel situation.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

diesel said:


> That is a bit offensive if directed at me. I certainly know my diesels. I also feel like it's possible to build heater systems into a car that can deal with a gelled fuel situation.


I can't speak for him, but I'm fairly sure he wasn't talking about you.

Why add more cost and complexity to the car when you can deal with it as simply as treating the fuel?


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

All. I apologize for not being able to keep up with this thread. I've enjoyed the conversation, despite my agitation and the issue I am going through.

I'll post more when I'm at a computer tonight, as I'd really like to respond to everyone and fill you in on what I found out over the last few days. Long point short, Conoco took this *very* seriously. They did some pretty good diligence to determine what they were using as a blend. They said they are 100% sure all the fuel in the tank I filled from was rated at -40F (I didn't ask about that number, they provided it). Then sent a fuel supply rep out to test the fuel, and he verified the blend. They said if I need to, I can have Chevy contact their reps to go over the blend, quality, and delivery contractor's sampling prior to delivery. While he was out at the tank, they checked the low points for fuel and made sure it was within specs (from working with fuel for so long, it's nearly impossible to remove ALL water). They also confirmed they had not taken a delivery since I filled up, so it should've been a good representation of what I have in my tank (I'm down to about 1/4). Because of the sensitivity of my Mustang due to timing and boost, I need to track ethanol percentage and the corresponding AFR. I have a test tube to test the E85 to see the blend before I put it in my car. I'd like to know from you guys if there is any way to test what is in my tank now... before I have to fill up again.

Basically, I want to have everything lined up for when I bring the car to the dealer.

Also, I'd like to ask what everyone's mpg is on with term blend. I've had my car 3-4 months now, and almost religiously got 44-46 mpg during the first two months (without tons of effort). When being really diligent, I've been able to get a repeatable 50mpg on the way to work, and about 46mpg on the way home. I've supposed this due to living about 1000ft higher than the Springs proper.

However, the past two months, I've had to absolutely struggle to maintain 36mpg. If I dare pass people, fail to try to roll to/away from red lights, and stay within 5mph of the speed limit, it has been dropping to 34-35mpg or so. I'm completely baffled, as I have not altered my driving habit, route, or time of travel in any way. The only thing that might've changed is the type of blend in the tank, as well as the outside temps. In fact, around the time I started seeing the lower mpg, I also pretty much 100% stopped running the AC. I would've thought between the cooler, denser air, and the Lack of running AC, my mpg would've gone up... not down.


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Also, I'd like to ask what everyone's mpg is on with term blend. I've had my car 3-4 months now, and almost religiously got 44-46 mpg during the first two months (without tons of effort). When being really diligent, I've been able to get a repeatable 50mpg on the way to work, and about 46mpg on the way home. I've supposed this due to living about 1000ft higher than the Springs proper.
> 
> However, the past two months, I've had to absolutely struggle to maintain 36mpg. If I dare pass people, fail to try to roll to/away from red lights, and stay within 5mph of the speed limit, it has been dropping to 34-35mpg or so. I'm completely baffled, as I have not altered my driving habit, route, or time of travel in any way. The only thing that might've changed is the type of blend in the tank, as well as the outside temps. In fact, around the time I started seeing the lower mpg, I also pretty much 100% stopped running the AC. I would've thought between the cooler, denser air, and the Lack of running AC, my mpg would've gone up... not down.


I was averaging just under 50mpg through September and October on flat Iowa roads and 80% highway driving. I had 25 mile runs exceeding 64mpg and 50 mile runs exceeding 56mpg. When November came around and the fuel started to change over, it came down drastically. Winter fuel economy for me varies significantly based on a number of variables. The most important of these is temperature weather conditions. On the 3x/week 100 mile round trip to teach my college courses, I can struggle to get 29mpg at -20F with a head-wind or as high as 46mpg on a calm, mild 40 degree day. I also do not consistently use the same fuel (treated #2; untreated #2; 30/70, 50/50, or 70/30 blends; or straight #1 - it depends on what stations I'm passing by and what the weather forecast says), so that also results in as much as +/- 5mpg variation for me beyond the weather conditions.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack - first thanks for getting back to us. I was hoping you would keep us informed. 

I'm glad that CONOCO is taking this seriously. I suspect they have taken action so as to prevent a larger cost to them down the road. 

I'm surprised that the car hasn't been evaluated by your dealership. But given that you don't seem to have suffered a recurrence, perhaps it's not that surprising. 

No matter what vehicle I've ever driven it always got worse fuel economy in the winter. My average is down a solid 5 mpg if not more, due in part to the ambient temperatures and blended diesel.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Also, I'd like to ask what everyone's mpg is on with term blend. I've had my car 3-4 months now, and almost religiously got 44-46 mpg during the first two months (without tons of effort). When being really diligent, I've been able to get a repeatable 50mpg on the way to work, and about 46mpg on the way home. I've supposed this due to living about 1000ft higher than the Springs proper.
> 
> However, the past two months, I've had to absolutely struggle to maintain 36mpg. If I dare pass people, fail to try to roll to/away from red lights, and stay within 5mph of the speed limit, it has been dropping to 34-35mpg or so. I'm completely baffled, as I have not altered my driving habit, route, or time of travel in any way. The only thing that might've changed is the type of blend in the tank, as well as the outside temps. In fact, around the time I started seeing the lower mpg, I also pretty much 100% stopped running the AC. I would've thought between the cooler, denser air, and the Lack of running AC, my mpg would've gone up... not down.


Winter diesel is notoriously inefficient. There are quite a few of us on here who have complained of a significant drop in mileage from the cold temps, but that's to be expected. The gas cars do the same thing. My Subaru is getting barely 20 mpg right now in conditions I normally get 25 mpg in during the summer.

As for your issue, I'm glad they're taking it seriously. It still sounds like a classic case of gelled fuel to me, but perhaps not. If there is anything wrong with the car, my first guesses would be the glow plugs or the electric fuel pump.

How many miles did you say you had on the car? It's also possible there was excess water in the fuel filter that froze. Draining the water off the fuel filter is part of the normal process when the car is in for regular oil changes, etc.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

diesel said:


> That is a bit offensive if directed at me. I certainly know my diesels. I also feel like it's possible to build heater systems into a car that can deal with a gelled fuel situation.


No I was talking to the guy throwing the Cruze under the bus because it wouldn't start with gelled fuel and claiming to have decades of diesel experience and feels it's all Chevy's fault a precision common rail fuel system balks at crappy fuel. 

Diesel, you have more experience with the CTD then anyone here...


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> All. I apologize for not being able to keep up with this thread. I've enjoyed the conversation, despite my agitation and the issue I am going through.
> 
> I'll post more when I'm at a computer tonight, as I'd really like to respond to everyone and fill you in on what I found out over the last few days. Long point short, Conoco took this *very* seriously. They did some pretty good diligence to determine what they were using as a blend. They said they are 100% sure all the fuel in the tank I filled from was rated at -40F (I didn't ask about that number, they provided it). Then sent a fuel supply rep out to test the fuel, and he verified the blend. They said if I need to, I can have Chevy contact their reps to go over the blend, quality, and delivery contractor's sampling prior to delivery. While he was out at the tank, they checked the low points for fuel and made sure it was within specs (from working with fuel for so long, it's nearly impossible to remove ALL water). They also confirmed they had not taken a delivery since I filled up, so it should've been a good representation of what I have in my tank (I'm down to about 1/4). Because of the sensitivity of my Mustang due to timing and boost, I need to track ethanol percentage and the corresponding AFR. I have a test tube to test the E85 to see the blend before I put it in my car. I'd like to know from you guys if there is any way to test what is in my tank now... before I have to fill up again.
> 
> ...


During the warmer months, and after my engine was well on its way to breaking in, I was averaging just under 43 MPG overall. With the same driving habits, I am averaging just under 39 MPG now overall, roughly a 10% drop. I have about 40PSI in my tires, and I have Michelin X-Ice which are great snow tires, but also LRR.


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## apinkel (Feb 15, 2014)

Flapjack said:


> I will make sure this gets documented with GM. If it does happen again, I will keep documenting it so I can return the car if needed. I am not going to try and get out of my loan and flip the car. That's just not how I roll. In the event it does happen again, it will rule out bad gas in my mind. If this car was designed the way it should've been, the chances of it happening again should *not *be that great.


I'm not sure where this issue stands but I'd just like to say that this is the right approach. What's more it's good to see that you are standing by this by following up with Conoco and documenting the issue.

In the research I was doing on this car I remember reading that the engineers took the European diesel and tweaked it for our emissions requirements, temperature extremes, altitudes and fuel standards. It's possible they missed something.

I'll add that I've got a Brother who drives truck and he mentioned that truckers have separate pumps for #1 & #2 diesel since it's part of their job to know when to use which... when to blend, when to go straight #1, or straight #2. From what I've read and what this thread bears out is that the consumer diesel stations have done their research as well and supply consumers with the appropriate fuel for the season. I've not had any issues using fuel from consumer pumps at truck stops and at quick-e-marts.

As for fuel economy during the winter. I'm seeing roughly a 7-10% drop in fuel economy which is roughly inline with what I was seeing with my 4 cylinder gas car (when stations switched to winter blend gas). I'll add that during the summer months the computer calculated MPG was very close to accurate, but during the winter months it's seems to be consistently pessimistic. The computer will calculate 39MPG but I'm hand calculating 41+.

I live in Nebraska so my experience may be different than yours. I did my first test drive of a CTD out in Denver and it did feel noticeably different at altitude than it did when I test drove and ultimately bought my CTD here in the Midwest. So as always... your mileage may vary... crappy pun intended.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

apinkel said:


> I'm not sure where this issue stands but I'd just like to say that this is the right approach. What's more it's good to see that you are standing by this by following up with Conoco and documenting the issue.
> 
> In the research I was doing on this car I remember reading that the engineers took the European diesel and tweaked it for our emissions requirements, temperature extremes, altitudes and fuel standards. It's possible they missed something.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the diesel club!


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## apinkel (Feb 15, 2014)

diesel said:


> Welcome to the diesel club!


Thank You. After 6 months of lurking I figured I ought to (finally) sign up and officially join the forum since I've learned a lot from what I've read here.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

apinkel said:


> I'll add that I've got a Brother who drives truck and he mentioned that truckers have separate pumps for #1 & #2 diesel since it's part of their job to know when to use which... when to blend, when to go straight #1, or straight #2.


depends where you are.

here, 500 miles north of the us border, theres a diesel pump.

in tejas, theres a diesel pump.

in between you get choices.

company i was with was mostly on flying j network

returning back from laredo, tj to alberta with a load of whatever i'd fill up in laredo, not quite full in amarillo, leaving some room for better diesel come colorado...fill up again in cheyenne and then not so much in billings, great falls, id get straight #1, and that would get me into canada and diesel that didnt gel

and you gotta run the reefer tank low too and put the good stuff in it as you head north or into cooler weather

never used #1 anywhere but wash, id, mt...never had an fuel issue in 12yrs on the highway with fuel from other states, but then it wasnt major cold snap back then, either


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

google......... Well_Worth Products Inc. Articles winter blended diesel fuels.

sums it up good. I like the part about additives having very little effect with ultra low sulfur diesel fuel.


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## apinkel (Feb 15, 2014)

boraz, yeah my Brother just does regional trucking (NE, IA, SD) so the situations you run into as cross country driver are different than what he's encountered. But your comments do highlight the fact that it is part of the job of trucking to know what conditions (of the weather and fuel stations) of the places you'll be driving thru.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread. The weather has been decidedly warmer, and I have not had any starting issues. My mpg, however, has tanked. I cannot figure out why. I've been asking most stations where I fuel what blend they are running. Other than the Conoco I filled at the fateful week (ironically), they have all been selling fuel only rated to -20F. As I mentioned, I haven't had any starting issues, but I'm obviously concerned about not being able to find -40F stuff. Of course, I don't have the nerve to go back to Conoco... even though they did all the footwork to assure me sure they're fuel wasn't the problem.

I'm scheduled in at the dealership for Tuesday morning. I was going to drop it off last week, but I been overcome-by-events, as of late. 

As for the fuel mileage, I am absolutely stumped. I have not changed my driving habits... if anything, I've become even lighter on the foot, trying to get as much out of each tank as possible. I've been getting 490-500 a tank, almost religiously, for the last few months. I got roughly 575-600 out of the first 5 or 6 tanks. 

This latest tank has been even worse. I'm about 200 miles into it, but I cannot seem to get more than 33mpg average out the car. Everything feels normal. I was at first concerned something was wrong with the tranny... that maybe it wasn't shifting into the highest gear or something, but it seems to ride at the same RPM on the freeway as it always has. One thing I have noted is that in the morning, after leaving my driveway, the car likes to sit in 1st gear until I completely let off the gas. It feels like when you move the shifter to the left and forget it's in manual mode (which I never use anyway). 

Just to be sure, I figured I'd ask you guys what RPMs you're seeing at which ranges. My only concern at this point is that there *is *something wrong, and that GM will not find it. It just seems highly unlikely that something wrong with the could cause a drop in mpg from ~45 down to 33-36. The weather has been pretty warm, too. In the 50s, and even 60s on a few days last week.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

@oilburner
Just realized posts with links get deleted. I did google that article, and learned quite a bit. Thanks for that.


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## Suns_PSD (Feb 16, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread. The weather has been decidedly warmer, and I have not had any starting issues. My mpg, however, has tanked. I cannot figure out why. I've been asking most stations where I fuel what blend they are running. Other than the Conoco I filled at the fateful week (ironically), they have all been selling fuel only rated to -20F. As I mentioned, I haven't had any starting issues, but I'm obviously concerned about not being able to find -40F stuff. Of course, I don't have the nerve to go back to Conoco... even though they did all the footwork to assure me sure they're fuel wasn't the problem.
> 
> I'm scheduled in at the dealership for Tuesday morning. I was going to drop it off last week, but I been overcome-by-events, as of late.
> 
> ...


There is a fair chance that you damaged your injection pump while continually cranking your diesel engine that didn't have any fuel as the injection pump depends on diesel fuel for lubrication. 

This will negatively effect mileage and pump longevity. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Suns_PSD said:


> There is a fair chance that you damaged your injection pump while continually cranking your diesel engine that didn't have any fuel as the injection pump depends on diesel fuel for lubrication.
> 
> This will negatively effect mileage and pump longevity.


Hmm... that is what many here, and even the service technician, told me to do. "You just didn't crank it long enough... it'll start".

At any rate, the drop in mpg started 1-2 tanks before I had the cold start problem.


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## Garandman (Dec 31, 2013)

The first week we had our car the morning temps in MA and NH were -5° F to 3° F (-20 to -15° C.). We get temps as low as -25 in the region so I was monitoring starting performance carefully, as some of the Army diesels were difficult to start in very cold weather.

The longest the glow plugs too to heat was 4 seconds. The car started more or less instantly, every time. Hope the dealer remedies Flapjack's problem.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread. The weather has been decidedly warmer, and I have not had any starting issues. My mpg, however, has tanked. I cannot figure out why. I've been asking most stations where I fuel what blend they are running. Other than the Conoco I filled at the fateful week (ironically), they have all been selling fuel only rated to -20F. As I mentioned, I haven't had any starting issues, but I'm obviously concerned about not being able to find -40F stuff. Of course, I don't have the nerve to go back to Conoco... even though they did all the footwork to assure me sure they're fuel wasn't the problem.
> 
> I'm scheduled in at the dealership for Tuesday morning. I was going to drop it off last week, but I been overcome-by-events, as of late.
> 
> ...


Hello, I have a few comments for you. First off, my transmission has never done anything like you describe. It definitely sounds like a problem. When mine is in full automatic mode and I am not accelerating hard, it wants to stay under 2000 RPM. At 73MPH I am just slightly above 2000 RPMs. Even when my engine is cold, the transmission does not hold first gear, BUT, it does not lock up the torque converter until it reaches a certain temp, maybe 2-5 minutes of driving. This can cause it to appear as if it's not shifting. It is a bit of a subtle difference, but *might* be what you are seeing. I think your best approach with the dealer is to ride with the tech to demonstrate, and ideally ride with the tech in another diesel to show them the difference. I am very interested to see how this turns out. Keep us posted.

Oh, and I disagree with cranking the engine damaging anything. These diesels are designed to handle extended cranking periods, and the starter turning over the engine is not going to damage anything.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Flapjack, any update on your car and dealer visit?



Flapjack said:


> At any rate, the drop in mpg started 1-2 tanks before I had the cold start problem.


Cold temps will affect any vehicle. Between winter blended fuels that carry less specific BTUs, to cold engine and transmission fluids taking a long time to warm up, to cold tires taking more energy to flex as they roll and wheel bearing/axle grease that takes a while to warm up... all of these things affect a car's mileage in colder temperatures. Then, once you've been driving for a while and things are all up to reasonable temperatures you're pushin gthe car through colder denser air that's fighting you every step of the way. In general, winter mileage stinks.

I would plan to observe your mileage once the warm summer weather returns before letting your thoughts drift to things that are possibly wrong with your car.

On another note, since I don't know much about the diesel I thought I would throw this out there. Is it possible your glow plugs are not functioning properly? I ask this since you said you used starter fluid and heard no difference in cranking. If the glow plugs were hot and the starter fluid was reaching the cylinders, should you not have heard it lighting off? Just a thought. It's a long shot and I'm sure you would get an SES light or OBD code if that were the case, just tossing it out there.

Welcome to the forum and I hope your new diesel ends up being the car you wanted it to be! It sounds like you have a wealth of experience and I'm sure you will be an asset to the forum.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

diesel said:


> Hello, I have a few comments for you. First off, my transmission has never done anything like you describe. It definitely sounds like a problem. When mine is in full automatic mode and I am not accelerating hard, it wants to stay under 2000 RPM. At 73MPH I am just slightly above 2000 RPMs. Even when my engine is cold, the transmission does not hold first gear, BUT, it does not lock up the torque converter until it reaches a certain temp, maybe 2-5 minutes of driving. This can cause it to appear as if it's not shifting. It is a bit of a subtle difference, but *might* be what you are seeing. I think your best approach with the dealer is to ride with the tech to demonstrate, and ideally ride with the tech in another diesel to show them the difference. I am very interested to see how this turns out. Keep us posted.
> 
> Oh, and I disagree with cranking the engine damaging anything. These diesels are designed to handle extended cranking periods, and the starter turning over the engine is not going to damage anything.


Thanks for at least supporting some of my theories. My guess is that nothing will be "wrong" with the car, and that it will all be explained away... but if I could talk to just one other CTD owner in the Springs, just to see what their experience has been, that would be awesome. I would even trade cars with them for a week to see if there is any deltas between performance. 

I'll be sure to update this thread. They might not be timely updates, but I promise to make them. 



Blue Angel said:


> Flapjack, any update on your car and dealer visit?
> My appointment is tomorrow. I'll let everyone know what I find out.





> Cold temps will affect any vehicle. Between winter blended fuels that carry less specific BTUs, to cold engine and transmission fluids taking a long time to warm up, to cold tires taking more energy to flex as they roll and wheel bearing/axle grease that takes a while to warm up... all of these things affect a car's mileage in colder temperatures. Then, once you've been driving for a while and things are all up to reasonable temperatures you're pushin gthe car through colder denser air that's fighting you every step of the way. In general, winter mileage stinks.


While I agree with you on some of your points, I would also say, as a person whose family owns a nearly 200K mile, 2002 Avalanche with a 6.0L (originally 5.3L) truck, a 1000HP E85 Mustang (tuned for 800HP on the street), an 8-million pound Chevy Traverse, the TD Cruze, and two motorcycles (a 2007 Yamaha R1 and a 2009 Kawi ER-6n), I have not seen anywhere near the drop in mileage over the winter months as you seem to indicate exists. I MIGHT see a 1-2mpg difference... but that is statistically very hard to confirm. In particular, colder, denser air (resistance notwithstanding) actually equals better horsepower and increased efficiency. Most "studies" I have read say the conflicting affects roughly cancel each other out. I'm talking about a 10-13mpg difference in fuel economy... a difference that started before it got seriously cold, and has persisted even now that the temps have warmed up a bit. I would actually point out that my last tank has been significantly worse than the one previous to it. This tank was from a station that indicated they had -20F fuel, versus the last one (from Conoco) who said it was rated at -40F. I wish OnStar had better metrics that I could document. I absolutely have not changed my driving habits. I have actually been *more* conscious of how I drive... passing less, starting more gently at lights, trying not to vary my changes in speed, etc. The way I have been driving should be netting better gas mileage... not worse. For the first few months I owned the car, it was incredibly easy to get 40-45 mpg. I even got a steady 50mpg on days when I practiced 100% conservative driving practices (though it was too painful to drive like that all the time... I wanted to see what the benefits would be). There is nothing I can reasonable do to get more than 38mpg right now. I have tried. It just isn't happening. I have given up and since started driving normally... passing people occasionally, not babying it so much off the lights, etc... I'm not getting 33-34mpg. While I have never, ever seen an issue on a stock, new car have any impact in mpg due to mechanical issues, I cannot dismiss it entirely. I am constantly messing with the Mustang, so it is nothing to see mechanical problems affect mpg... but even the worst problems (cams being 'off', leaks in the turbo piping, exhaust leaks, etc...) only caused a 5-10% reduction in efficiency. Applied to the 45mpg I was getting with the Cruze, that would be a hit of 4-5mpg... not 10+.



> I would plan to observe your mileage once the warm summer weather returns before letting your thoughts drift to things that are possibly wrong with your car.
> 
> On another note, since I don't know much about the diesel I thought I would throw this out there. Is it possible your glow plugs are not functioning properly? I ask this since you said you used starter fluid and heard no difference in cranking. If the glow plugs were hot and the starter fluid was reaching the cylinders, should you not have heard it lighting off? Just a thought. It's a long shot and I'm sure you would get an SES light or OBD code if that were the case, just tossing it out there.


Again, I seriously doubt they will find anything 'wrong' with my car. But something HAS to be effecting my mpg. When I've all but ruled out gas, tire pressure, driving habits, etc... there has to be something else wrong. Something wrong with the glow plugs is a plausible theory with the hard starting (I have never seen ether/starting fluid not start a diesel... even if it only runs for a few seconds), I don't believe that is contributing to the mpg problem. I am starting to think it is the transmission. If it is not getting into the highest gear, that could absolutely explain the hit in mpg I'm seeing. I could definitely see missing the most fuel-efficient gear having that kind of impact.



> Welcome to the forum and I hope your new diesel ends up being the car you wanted it to be! It sounds like you have a wealth of experience and I'm sure you will be an asset to the forum.


Thanks. I appreciate the welcome. I admit I have a lot to learn when it comes to diesels (compared to gasoline engines), and this seems like a great place to start.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Flapjack,

I definitely agree that if your torque converter is not locking up or there is some other thing going on with the transmission, then you will take a big hit in MPG as the engine will be turning significantly faster at a given speed. Have you just used the DIC or did you manually calculate? How do the manual calculations compare to the DIC? 

I hope everything gets sorted out for you.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

diesel said:


> Flapjack,
> 
> I definitely agree that if your torque converter is not locking up or there is some other thing going on with the transmission, then you will take a big hit in MPG as the engine will be turning significantly faster at a given speed. Have you just used the DIC or did you manually calculate? How do the manual calculations compare to the DIC?
> 
> I hope everything gets sorted out for you.


I thought it was plausible. I'll have to make note of the RPMs at different speeds. I'll do that tomorrow (home sick today). Though, I'm not holding my breath. I'm guessing it will be exactly what it should be, and that the not-shifting-out-of-first thing is only when the car is cold (doesn't seem to happen any other time).

I always calculate what the mileage is vs what goes into the tank. I only factor in when the mileage is reset after a complete fill. I always fill the same way, triggering the vacuum breaker on the nozzle once, then a slow trickle from the nozzle to trigger it again. I've done it the exact same way since I bought the car.

In my experience, the DIC is surprisingly accurate.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Hi Flap,

The mileage drop is interesting and there may be something to it. During extreme cold, I wouldn't have thought twice about it as every car I've owned will easily drop 4-5 mpg or more during cold weather, especially with a lot of cold starts and short distance driving.

That said, I have yet to average less than 35 mpg (pump calculated) on a tank, and that is with short distance driving in a much colder climate (northern MN) than you. We had two days last week in the 40s F and my mileage shot up like a rocket to well into the 40s mpg even on winter fuel.

Also, it could be related to what diesel said about the torque converter not locking up or something. Even in extreme cold with a dead cold start, I have never had to coax my tranny to shift. It will hang on a little longer while the engine/tranny warms up, but nothing extreme (normal, my gas Cruze did the same thing, even worse). I usually notice it tends to hang on to a higher RPM in 2nd and 3rd when cold moreso than 1st. We're talking temps well below zero though. Whenever the temp is above zero F, there is little to no shift lag even from a dead cold start. What you're describing doesn't sound normal.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Oh, I definitely need to "coax" it. I have to drop to probably 10% throttle just to get it to shift. 

Another point is that I've used to remote-start the car prior to driving it. There have been a few cold days when I've let it warm up for 5 minutes, but I've stopped doing that, for the purpose of getting 'real' mpg. It makes for a freezy-butt first few minutes, but at least I know the numbers are not skewed.

Although, the few times I have done it and still tried to track the mpg, it hasn't really seemed to make a difference. Unlike my other gas vehicles, it seems really sip fuel when idling. Not sure if that is just the efficiency of a new engine, or the nature of diesel engine operation under low load. I know when tuning my Mustang, I shoot for 15% load at idle... if the injector maps and mass air transfer functions are correct, that seems to be the load at idle... sometimes 20% during the first 30 seconds or so. I'd be curious to do some datalogging on the Cruze and see what the strategy is. Of course, without having things like 'timing' to look at, I'm sure it would seem extremely alien to me. I've actually heard tuning a diesel is much easier than a gasoline engine (basically cranking things up and watching your EGTs), I just have no experience doing it.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Flapjack said:


> In particular, colder, denser air (resistance notwithstanding) actually equals better horsepower and increased efficiency.


The "increased efficiency" of that statement doesn't belong when dealing with a car that uses a Mass Airflow meter to calculate fuelling. Yes, colder air is more oxygen dense and therefore can feed more more power per unit volume, but when it comes to efficiency the ECU meters fuel delivery based on the measured mass of the air coming into the engine. The air/fuel ratio stays consistent regardless of the air temperature.

In fact, cold air efficiency actually goes down for two reasons. The first is the engine operates under higher pumping losses since less of the higher density air is required per unit of power and this means higher manifold vacuum and a relative icrease in power loss to overcome it. Second is combustion efficiency is hampered by extremely cold air, and is the reason for winter blended fuel. Gasoline is less eager to atomise/evaporate and burn efficiently at extremely low temperatures.

Having said all that, these things are true for gasoline engines, though the atomisation/burn of diesel fuel may be an issue at low temperatures as well. This is where my knowledge of diesels falls short.

This page seems to be a pretty good read for those not familiar with diesel fuel and it's "charm":

Diesel fuel characteristics and resources

I don't have time to study the whole thing in detail, but there seems to be some very useful information in there.



Flapjack said:


> While I agree with you on some of your points, I would also say, as a person whose family owns a nearly 200K mile, 2002 Avalanche with a 6.0L (originally 5.3L) truck, a 1000HP E85 Mustang (tuned for 800HP on the street), an 8-million pound Chevy Traverse, the TD Cruze, and two motorcycles (a 2007 Yamaha R1 and a 2009 Kawi ER-6n), I have not seen anywhere near the drop in mileage over the winter months as you seem to indicate exists. I MIGHT see a 1-2mpg difference... but that is statistically very hard to confirm.


Do keep in mind that, the more efficient a vehicle is, the harder it will be hit by things that affect efficiency, especially when looking at simple units of measure. A 2 MPG decrease on a vehicle getting 14 MPG is the same ratio as a 6 MPG decrease on a vehicle getting 42 MPG.

I'll try to make you feel a little better.  Most mornings I reset my Trip2 odometer and then look at my mileage when I get to work. The nature of my commute means it is easy for me to get great fuel economy numbers, especially on my way to work in the morning; a 13 mile drive one-way on low speed roads with few stops. In the summer months under ideal conditions, my best commutes in to work see a DIC reported 60 MPG. In the winter months in extreme cold my numbers for the same drive are sometimes lucky to top 40 MPG. That's a 50% difference (33% drop), and in the winter I'm using an oil pan heater to pre-heat my oil.

50%, and other than ~2% being related to winter blend gasoline and another 4-5% for winter tires, the rest can be directly blamed on the environment the car is being operated in. Cold, snow, wind... they all add up, and the shorter the trip the more difference they make. On really cold days my car barely gets up to full operating temperature by the time I get to work.

Again, this is with a gas Cruze so I'm not sure how directly that translates to the diesel, but since you have an automatic transmission and don't use any type of engine preheating (I think?), I would imagine you'd be in the same boat, if not worse.


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> This latest tank has been even worse. I'm about 200 miles into it, but I cannot seem to get more than 33mpg average out the car. Everything feels normal. I was at first concerned something was wrong with the tranny... that maybe it wasn't shifting into the highest gear or something, but it seems to ride at the same RPM on the freeway as it always has. One thing I have noted is that in the morning, after leaving my driveway, the car likes to sit in 1st gear until I completely let off the gas. It feels like when you move the shifter to the left and forget it's in manual mode (which I never use anyway).
> 
> .


For what it's worth, my tranny has done that a few times (maybe 3?) in the 3-4 months and 9000 miles I've had it. RPMs shoot up and it feels like you are stuck in manual mode until you lift your foot off the gas. Since it only has happened 2 or 3 times I've ignored it figuring something in the software or the learning that it has done has a little glitch. If I remember right I think the last time I just let the RPMs level out and it shifted. Stupid computers.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

VtTD said:


> For what it's worth, my tranny has done that a few times (maybe 3?) in the 3-4 months and 9000 miles I've had it. RPMs shoot up and it feels like you are stuck in manual mode until you lift your foot off the gas. Since it only has happened 2 or 3 times I've ignored it figuring something in the software or the learning that it has done has a little glitch. If I remember right I think the last time I just let the RPMs level out and it shifted. Stupid computers.


The transmission control unit is purposely holding gears and leaving the torque converter onlocked which heats up the transmission and engine coolant much much fast. It's on purpose. If you rev it up enough it will shift.


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## apinkel (Feb 15, 2014)

KpaxFAQ said:


> The transmission control unit is purposely holding gears and leaving the torque converter onlocked which heats up the transmission and engine coolant much much fast. It's on purpose. If you rev it up enough it will shift.


Agreed. My brother in law has got a Ford diesel pickup and he was describing the same kind of cold start shift behavior on his truck. That would be one advantage to a manual tranny for these diesels (personally I'd still pick the auto because I detest getting stuck in traffic with a manual transmission).


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

apinkel said:


> Agreed. My brother in law has got a Ford diesel pickup and he was describing the same kind of cold start shift behavior on his truck. That would be one advantage to a manual tranny for these diesels (personally I'd still pick the auto because I detest getting stuck in traffic with a manual transmission).


I hear ya! We have one work pickup at work thats a dodge and stick. We all dread getting stuck with it. Coincidently, it's my uncles former personal vehicle and he's a hardheaded stick shift is better guy. The rest of us aren't neanderthals who actually like to be able to drink a coffee and relax a bit on the way to the job! I get enough stick shifting in a tri-axle dumptruck and my Harley for a lifetime.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

KpaxFAQ said:


> I hear ya! We have one work pickup at work thats a dodge and stick. We all dread getting stuck with it. Coincidently, it's my uncles former personal vehicle and he's a hardheaded stick shift is better guy. The rest of us aren't neanderthals who actually like to be able to drink a coffee and relax a bit on the way to the job! I get enough stick shifting in a tri-axle dumptruck and my Harley for a lifetime.


our tridrive dumps have autos....and 4 axle wagons behind them

we also have tri drive tractors with autos pulling two trailers, the older trailers are 9 axle total, the new trailers have 10 axles and are motorized


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> I'll be sure to update this thread. They might not be timely updates, but I promise to make them.


It's been about six weeks. Any chance you can share an update with us?


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Tomko said:


> It's been about six weeks. Any chance you can share an update with us?


I saw this thread had been updated and thought it had gotten cold again somewhere in the U.S. I think this thread is ready for bed for about eight months.


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## jalaner (Dec 28, 2013)

The fuel economy loss could be caused or increased by use of the auxiliary electric heat that is engaged when the temperature knob is turned to the high position. I noticed higher fuel usage with it on so I turn the knob back a few notches to disengage it as soon as the car warms up and the engine heat exchanger can heat the cabin much more efficiently. Also, fuel manufacturers are increasingly using taxpayer subsidized biodiesel in their products. The CTD owners manual states that biodiesel increases the risk of water accumulation and gelling in the fuel. Diesel can contain up to 5% biodiesel without informing the purchaser. B20 contains 5-20% biodiesel and must be labeled. Most of the inexpensive diesel retailers in my area such as Walmart now carry only B20 and the label only about 2" long, easily overlooked.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

The OP just left this in another thread - so this is the best we have to close off the story for now. 



Flapjack said:


> I love my 2014 CTD. I did have one non-start day last year. It got to -25F at the lowest, and I did confirm I had the -40F fuel in the tank. I did not put additives in the tank, nor use the oil pan heater. It would not start until I put it in the garage next to a propane heater for a few hours. Chevy was supposed to investigate as to why it happened, as there was no really reason it *should *have happened. I will revisit this year, but plan to use the oil pan heater and/or put the car in the garage on the colder nights this winter.
> 
> That being said, I still wouldn't trade the car for anything. I have my grumbles here and there, but no car is perfect. Still, I drive in my car 2hrs every day, and it has more than proven itself a great choice in the last year I have owned it.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Hey guys. I apologize for the lack of updates. Life got away from me, and I really didn't have a lot to report on anyway. 

Chevy had been giving me the runaround as far as looking into my specific issues, so I stopped trying. The fuel mileage issue is the same, but obviously, I haven't had to deal with any cold starting issues the past few months.  With winter approaching, I will re-engage with Chevy and see what they say. Last time I had talked to them, they did say there were a few isolated cases where people had starting issues, as well as fuel mpg issues. There was some speculation on my dealer's part that the mpg may have to do with a sensor... but I haven't had any of the CELs that I've seen in some of the other threads (thankfully). The best mpg I've been able to get is around 35 on steady 55-65mph driving with very few stops. I used to get 45 and even 50mpg average on these same trips to and from work, so it's pretty frustrating. At the same time, it's still miles above what I was getting with the 02 Chevy Avalanche... the one I put a 6.0L in. 

I will try and be better at updating the thread. I am bringing the car in for service within the next few weeks. I will see what they have to say then.


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## econrey (Jun 7, 2012)

Sounds to me like your filling station was still selling a warmer weather blend. Newer diesels are relatively care-free in cold weather. Keep it plugged in and you really shouldn't have an issue there(CO). I would avoid starting fluid unless it was an emergency. I've never had an issue with a common rail starting that starting fluid would fix, there is always a better fix for a weak battery, etc. I lived in SD for a while and never had an issue with anything starting other than our company's old and unmaintained 4430 JD.

In any diesel, fuel filter changes are extremely important. I am unfamiliar with the setup on the CTD, but cold weather starting failures often start here(ice, gelled fuel, etc.).


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

econrey said:


> Sounds to me like your filling station was still selling a warmer weather blend. Newer diesels are relatively care-free in cold weather. Keep it plugged in and you really shouldn't have an issue there(CO). I would avoid starting fluid unless it was an emergency. I've never had an issue with a common rail starting that starting fluid would fix, there is always a better fix for a weak battery, etc. I lived in SD for a while and never had an issue with anything starting other than our company's old and unmaintained 4430 JD.
> 
> In any diesel, fuel filter changes are extremely important. I am unfamiliar with the setup on the CTD, but cold weather starting failures often start here(ice, gelled fuel, etc.).


Thanks for the input. You are correct. It should not have been an issue, but it was. The station could have easily blew me off, but they went out of their way to track down the shipment, supplier, etc and verify the grade of diesel that was in the tank. Had they not done that, I probably would've arrived at the same conclusion you did. If they are to be believed (and I have no reason not to), they had no other complaints about the fuel leading up to my incident.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Well, it happened again. Since last year, I've religiously only gone to one gas station... one that can tell me exactly what grade is going in their tanks. They've already switched to winter grade, not that it should matter, as it only got to -5F last night, and was 0F when I went to start the car this morning. I made sure to plug in the oil pan heater as well. I've also started adding fuel tank additives as recommended by you guys, even though the dealer has said they're not needed and could hurt the system.

It was not that cold out there last night. This is not acceptable, but I don't know what to do about it. The dealer is now saying that unless they can replicate it, they're not sure they can do anything. I'm going to try and get roadside assistance to tow the car there today, but it won't be as cold tonight. 

My gut tells me it is something electronic, as when I try to start it, I get a slew of error messages ranging from "check side detection system" to "check traction control system". The battery cranks hard, but starts to slow down after 6-7 cranking cycles... as expected.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Flapjack said:


> My gut tells me it is something electronic, as when I try to start it, I get a slew of error messages ranging from "check side detection system" to "check traction control system". The battery cranks hard, but starts to slow down after 6-7 cranking cycles... as expected.


Not that you should have to do this to start a new car in the cold (obviously not!), but you may want to try hooking up a battery charger an hour or so before starting, or connecting it to another car with booster cables. The reason I suggest that is, low voltage can cause all sorts of issues with electronics and it sounds like that could be part of the problem? I know poor grounds can cause all sorts of headaches and can be very tough to track down since the connected circuits will show proper voltage most of the time and when not under load.

That's just a thought that may/may not help you track the issue. Your random codes don't make a lot of sense... especially traction control!

Just to be clear, did this issue persist last year at all, or was it a one/two time deal when the weather first got cold? If it goes away for the rest of the year I have no idea what it could be...

Let us know if the dealer reports anything useful.


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## karter59 (Feb 14, 2014)

If the crank speed slows that quickly, the battery is the issue. The tell tale sign is your dash firing up messages. When battery voltage drops, sensors will give incorrect readings leading to the error messages. Check how much the battery voltage drops during cranking with a hand held multimeter. The battery may show good voltage at rest, but I suspect that under load it falls off.


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## CRUISE-CRUZE (Nov 8, 2010)

Time to change to the gas version? Diesel is more expensive too.


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

This almost certainly sounds like a battery issue to me. The inability of the starter to sustain power turning the engine is a telltale sign of that. If it was a fuel issue, it would crank all day (until the battery became depleted), but just not fire - or would die under load. The strange behavior of warning lights and electrical systems is also a common sign that there is not adequate battery voltage (or that there is a bad ground) in the Cruze.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

From some of the VERY cold start videos posted last year by members, you can definitely see that the cranking speed does NOT slow down despite somewhat extended cranking speeds. Definitely suspect the battery it either not fully charged, or something wrong with it. I'd have it tested and see what the results are.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Guys, I think I'm reading this differently than you are:



Flapjack said:


> The battery cranks hard, but starts to slow down after 6-7 cranking cycles... as expected.


The way I read this is, the battery is cranking the engine over just fine the first 6-7 times he tries to start the car, and then starts to show signs of slowing down. This would be absolutely normal for a healthy battery in the cold, especially when each "cycle" probably lasts 10 seconds or more.

It sounds like you may be reading this as, the cranking speed is slowing after 6-7 crankshaft revolutions?


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Sorry all. When I said the battery cranks "hard", I meant "strong". It starts out really well. I tried to start it around 10 times. I can't remember how long each cranking cycle is, but it seems it's around 20 seconds or so. After about 6-7 of those cycles, you could hear the cranks start to slow a little... though not much. Tbh, I can't see that much cranking not have an impact on ANY battery... and ours is not some super Optima gel cell battery or anything. It was still cranking admirably after the 10th try, but I wasn't going to keep pushing it. It obviously wasn't going to start.

At any rate, I called the dealer who was stumped. They of course remembered the incident last year. They advised I call roadside and get the car to them, which I did. They towed it later that afternoon and I rode with them. Immediately after getting to the dealer, we went outside to crank it and it did exactly the same thing (thank God). He couldn't believe it... especially since I just had it in for routine service the week before. So he decided to keep it overnight and got me a loaner.

Yesterday morning, they tried again and got the same result. They tried to pull codes, but got nothing. They brought it inside, let it warm up for a few hours, and it finally started. Still no codes. 

So they called Chevy and apparently they've been inundated with calls since the cold snap. Supposedly over 1000 just for our region, all for diesels (not just the Cruze) across all model lines, from the last two model years. They know there is a problem and are working with engineers determine the root cause and a fix. 

They're keeping my car another day to run some more tests for Chevy. Not sure what those tests are. I'll ask them when they're done. The important thing (to me) is that they're seeing the problem, it's repeatable, and that it has been documented.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

Sounds like the fuel is gelled. Need to some anti gel additive and find a place that actually sells winter fuel.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

TDCruze said:


> Sounds like the fuel is gelled. Need to some anti gel additive and find a place that actually sells winter fuel.


Please have a read through the thread as it documents flapper's experiences last winter. 

I think he was the only one to have an undiagnosed problem last year. Either he's bonkers or something's off with his car. At this point, and given this recurrence, I'm starting to think it's his car.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

TDCruze said:


> Sounds like the fuel is gelled. Need to some anti gel additive and find a place that actually sells winter fuel.





Tomko said:


> Please have a read through the thread as it documents flapper's experiences last winter.
> 
> I think he was the only one to have an undiagnosed problem last year. Either he's *bonkers or something's off with his car*. At this point, and given this recurrence, I'm starting to think it's his car.


Lol, probably a little of both.

Like I said, I'm using the additive (PS white) not the diesel 911, which didn't do me a lick of good last year. Not that I should have to. The dealer has specifically said I should not need it, and just to stick with a gas station that uses the appropriate fuel for the season (mine does). The local gas station has already switched to #1 diesel. Last year, I was filling up in town (Colorado Springs) near my work. Many more gassers out there. Now, I use the station in town in Falcon closer to where I live in the country. A lot more folks out here use diesel, so the local station is much more sensitive to our fuel needs, lol. It gets colder out here than in town as well. Plus, using one station works better for me, as I can feel better about the fuel I'm getting. Last year was a pretty shitty feeling. Didn't expect to be going through this again....

EDIT: By the way, I did not hear back from the dealer yesterday or today, and was too busy to give them a call. I still have the loaner, so the need has not been pressing. They're closed tomorrow, so I'll give them a call on Monday if I haven't heard anything.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> Guys, I think I'm reading this differently than you are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that was how I read it (crankshaft revolutions). I see now that I was reading it wrong. I retract my statement about a bad battery. 

Flapjack, I wish you luck in this. I hope they are able to find a root cause.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Sorry again for the slow updates...

I got my car back Thursday. I'm not sure why they kept it so long, as they weren't able to find anything. They ran the car through every test they could imagine and also deep charged the battery. They said they talked with Chevy several times and that it is an issue they are investigating, but have no root cause or solution yet. In the meantime, they have said that Chevy has "officially" advised me to start using additives in my fuel and that it has been documented in the system for me, in case anyone tries to hassle me in future about it. They gave me a printout of the exact type of additives Chevy recommends (blah blah blah).

The dealer did say the issue has received some major attention and that they do expect some sort of action to be taken on Chevy's part.... but that it might take a while.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I think that we'd all be interested to know what the officially recommended additives are.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> Sorry again for the slow updates...
> 
> I got my car back Thursday. I'm not sure why they kept it so long, as they weren't able to find anything. They ran the car through every test they could imagine and also deep charged the battery. They said they talked with Chevy several times and that it is an issue they are investigating, but have no root cause or solution yet. In the meantime, they have said that Chevy has "officially" advised me to start using additives in my fuel and that it has been documented in the system for me, in case anyone tries to hassle me in future about it. They gave me a printout of the exact type of additives Chevy recommends (blah blah blah).
> 
> The dealer did say the issue has received some major attention and that they do expect some sort of action to be taken on Chevy's part.... but that it might take a while.


What type of additive did they recommend? Did they say why they wanted you to use it?


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

I scanned the printout the dealer gave me, but there was no way in the world I was getting it below the file size limit set by the site. I put it on Google Docs instead.

I'll try to make an OCR-enabled doc later so I can copy/paste the text in.

*#03-06-04-017G: Information on Diesel Fuel Additives - (Feb 27, 2014)*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B--SKyVbN9DJMnVrdnNkeWdmZ1E/view?usp=sharing


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## nebojsa (Jan 3, 2011)

You would assume that new technology would be better.
I had a 1989 VW TDI diesel which i got rid of last year for a 2013 ECO 6M. The vw rusted out,but since i never undercoated it the dealer was right when he said that the car will fall apart before the engine will. I never had problems starting it in winters and i did not have a block heater. Sometimes you had to wait more than 15 seconds for the glow plugs to do their thing on a cold day,but it started fine.
The last couple of years it would start fine but it was a little rough for a few second BUT still original injectors. This was during the cold winter months. Afew times i had to change glow plugs , but no other issues.
I also used this blue bottle Performance Formula « Stanadyne Additives year round.

I did not want a another diesel because i froze my A** during winter months. Unless you are driving highway speed i could not warm up the interior much. But last winter my my Cruze Eco now not much better than the diesel.
If i knew that the Eco was almost the same as my old VW when it came to interior heat,i would have stayed with a diesel.

Probably not Cruze since it does not come with a manual diesel.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

But it does come with electrically assisted heating.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

nebojsa said:


> You would assume that new technology would be better.
> I had a 1989 VW TDI diesel which i got rid of last year for a 2013 ECO 6M. The vw rusted out,but since i never undercoated it the dealer was right when he said that the car will fall apart before the engine will. I never had problems starting it in winters and i did not have a block heater. Sometimes you had to wait more than 15 seconds for the glow plugs to do their thing on a cold day,but it started fine.
> The last couple of years it would start fine but it was a little rough for a few second BUT still original injectors. This was during the cold winter months. Afew times i had to change glow plugs , but no other issues.
> I also used this blue bottle Performance Formula « Stanadyne Additives year round.
> ...


The electric heat in the diesel is great.


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## MilTownSHO (Oct 9, 2013)

diesel said:


> The electric heat in the diesel is great.


Are you guys actually turning it on full blast and cranking the electric heat right away when you start driving?

I only use it when I defrost, otherwise the heat stays off until it hits 1/4 on the temp gauge


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## vwgtiglx (Jun 13, 2013)

MilTownSHO said:


> Are you guys actually turning it on full blast and cranking the electric heat right away when you start driving?
> 
> I only use it when I defrost, otherwise the heat stays off until it hits 1/4 on the temp gauge


By turning it right to the Max, that is how the electric heater is activated when it is first cold started to get instant heat.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

MilTownSHO said:


> Are you guys actually turning it on full blast and cranking the electric heat right away when you start driving?
> 
> I only use it when I defrost, otherwise the heat stays off until it hits 1/4 on the temp gauge



I turn the temp knob all the way to the highest setting and the fan on the 4th setting.  I believe the fan speed doesn't have anything to do with activating the electric heat, but having the temp all the way hot does.


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