# Exhaust ice build up?



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

That 's Funny .. Ha ha ha ha ahahahahahaahahahaahaahahahh

Never Heard of IT !


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

brian v said:


> That 's Funny .. Ha ha ha ha ahahahahahaahahahaahaahahahh
> 
> Never Heard of IT !



That's why I took the photo, have not seen or heard of this before. Sure it was beyond cold but to freeze my exhaust gas moisture? I know wind chill does effect objects but have to wonder if my 70mph+ speed was flash freezing the water as it exited the pipe.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Ha, must take a 800 mile trip to finally blow all that condensation out of your muffler. Use to mount the muffler as close as possible to the engine, but just had to add a catalytic converter, a resonator, causing the only space left to mount it, way far in the rear. Compounded with a much smaller engine.

Good thing they are using stainless steel, ore else you would be replacing it every year if using conventional cold rolled steel. Yep, the major exhaust component is H2O.










Item 11 is the muffler. Way way back there where the exhaust is much cooler.


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

a Volvo was towed into the shop last week would not start, crank no fire after pulling our hair out for awhile we found the pipe between both mufflers had filled up with condensation an froze solid not allowing exhaust flow. we drilled a small hole an heated up the pipe an started an ran fine.
customer only did short trips. 
was told in trade school yeas ago for every gallon of gas burned 10 gallons of water comes out the tailpipe in condensation.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

On a normal car you generally stop seeing condensation after the engine is warmed up. I still see my car puffing out steam if I take off from a stop even once the engine has been warmed up for a long while.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Ha, with this cold weather we are going through again, all vehicles are leaving contrails. But usually not enough to see yours from your rear view mirror..


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## au201 (May 18, 2013)

NickD said:


> Ha, with this cold weather we are going through again, all vehicles are leaving contrails. But usually not enough to see yours from your rear view mirror..


I see the same here. Even cars going down the road at 60mph are leaving steam behind. If it means anything, our Camaro puts out tons of steam and it doesn't go away in the cold. It even puffs a little steam up to 60 degrees. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

jblackburn said:


> On a normal car you generally stop seeing condensation after the engine is warmed up. I still see my car puffing out steam if I take off from a stop even once the engine has been warmed up for a long while.


This month I have been averaging 76 miles a day, would think all that condensation would have gotten out already. Typically I'm really easy on my car until its warmed up, when I do finally get on it hard there is a smoke screen of condensation behind me. Usually by the 4th or 5th time taking off hard from a stop sign 0-60mph most of that steam is gone.


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## GRIMland (Jun 1, 2014)

A co-worker saw this the other day in a parking lot - the car was idling with no one inside. FYI the high today (2/22/15) was -2 F with 20mph winds (-34 F wind chill)


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## AutumnCruzeRS (Sep 10, 2012)

I can see this happening with the engine just idling in this extreme cold, since it doesnt warm up to operating temp idling. Not sure on a 70 mph roll with rpms @ 2000+


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

AutumnCruzeRS said:


> I can see this happening with the engine just idling in this extreme cold, since it doesnt warm up to operating temp idling. Not sure on a 70 mph roll with rpms @ 2000+


My 800 mile route had no idling, my average speed over over 57mph, 85% of the drive was with the cruise set at 72mph. My cruze is a 2012 automatic, so at 72mph its just under 2500RPM. My car gets warmed up to operating temps every day prior to this, it gets drove at least an hour daily(I average 60-80 miles a day).


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

CEBT posted a similar picture last year after an all day drive in freezing temperatures.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

The more efficient the engine, the more heat is used to propel the car and there is minumum lost to the cooling system (sound familiar?) and secondly, the exaust.

IMO, the 1.4 is a profoundly efficient design and this just strengthens my position.

Rob


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## Gh0st (Oct 17, 2012)

Robby said:


> The more efficient the engine, the more heat is used to propel the car and there is minumum lost to the cooling system (sound familiar?) and secondly, the exaust.
> 
> IMO, the 1.4 is a profoundly efficient design and this just strengthens my position.
> 
> Rob


Eh, I'm not in agreement here. If you look at what is going on, this car has way too much working against making the engine heat up to actually be more efficient. When the engine stays cold it's not efficient as when it is at operating temperatures. The problem I see on the Cruze is the front grill is way too large for such a small engine that doesn't require massive cooling. In addition to this, the removal of the lower engine cover due to the recall results in even more heat lost from the engine. I've considered making a guard to block airflow to the front bumper.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

Ice buildup in the muffler is not uncommon in sub zero temperatures, especially with mostly in town driving. I am surprised to hear of it from mostly highway driving though. Too small of an engine for the size and length of pipe I guess. The exhaust gas is cooling off to fast and the rear pipe is staying well below freezing allowing the condensation to build up and freeze.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Gh0st said:


> Eh, I'm not in agreement here. If you look at what is going on, this car has way too much working against making the engine heat up to actually be more efficient. When the engine stays cold it's not efficient as when it is at operating temperatures. The problem I see on the Cruze is the front grill is way too large for such a small engine that doesn't require massive cooling. In addition to this, the removal of the lower engine cover due to the recall results in even more heat lost from the engine. I've considered making a guard to block airflow to the front bumper.


The engine, meaning the combustion chambers, is not cold......
You are confusing a engine that sheds excess heat into its cooling system as 'efficient' when, in fact, that is the hallmark of a enefficient design.
I will agree the heater is more efficient, but we are talking efficiency from the standpoint of BTU's used to move the car, not heat the cabin.

Same applies to exaust temperature.....higher temperature means the BTU's are going out the pipe, not moving the car.
A engine is simply a heat pump....the more heat it can keep in the combustion chambers, providing energy to turn the crankshaft, the more efficient it is.

Regarding the less than stellar heat available to the cabin......as you've likely noted you can actually keep the cooling system from attaining mid-gauge by running a high fan speed and draw outside air......this proves that the engine is not shedding much heat energy into the cooling system.
If the thermostat is working correctly, the odds are it never opens much more than ten to twenty percent on a cold day so restricting the grille opening is pointless.

The grill opening is dimensioned for worst case scenario......hot, desert weather......the A/C is blasting and the condenser just behind the grill is looking for all the airflow it can get......next is the intercooler, looking for all the airflow it can get......behind those two heat generators is the radiator, doing the best it can with what little comparativly cool air remains.......I think the engineers got it right.
A thermostat controlling coolant flow in cold weather, a correctly sized grill for adequate airflow in the worst of conditions.

Since this is not technically a air cooled engine (it is considered air over water using a heat exchanger as all water cooled engines are described) that hurricane of cold air entering the grill and due to pressurization, being forced out the bottom has nothing to do with the overall operating temperature.

My Cruze is unmodified....but my operation is the same as the folks with the mod.....just stays cleaner.

Rob


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Gh0st said:


> When the engine stays cold it's not efficient as when it is at operating temperatures. The problem I see on the Cruze is the front grill is way too large for such a small engine that doesn't require massive cooling. In addition to this, the removal of the lower engine cover due to the recall results in even more heat lost from the engine. I've considered making a guard to block airflow to the front bumper.


All of those things only slightly prolong warm up times. When I had a lower grill block on my RS(largest lower grill opening), taking the same road every day it only improved warm up times by 500ft - 1 mile depending on outside temps. Yes I said 500ft, as my car typically would be at 180F driving by the same house every day. 

The lower engine shield may have helped with city speed warm up times but once moving at highway speeds the airflow through the radiator would flush out all engine compartment built up heat even with an unmodified shield. This can be seen with a K&N short ram, at highway speeds the intake air temperatures are the same as the stock cold air intake.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Rob, there you go again making all kinds of sense. Who do you think you are? 



Robby said:


> A engine is simply a heat pump....the more heat it can keep in the combustion chambers, providing energy to turn the crankshaft, the more efficient it is.


Something many people don't think about is the fact that the hotter the engine runs the less heat is lost to the cooling system since the delta temperature between the combustion gasses and the surrounding metal is less. This is why the Cruze (and many other modern cars) are running steady coolant temperatures MUCH higher than what we saw only a few years ago.

Like you said, the fewer BTUs escaping to the cooling system the more are left to propel the crankshaft and move the car.



Robby said:


> If the thermostat is working correctly, the odds are it never opens much more than ten to twenty percent on a cold day so restricting the grille opening is pointless.


I've been thinking about this a lot recently. The engine block is iron, which isn't overly efficient at heat convection compared to aluminum, but it has a fairly large surface area. The cylinder head, timing chain cover and oil pan are all aluminum which is good at heat convection. I wonder, compared to the radiator, how much heat radiating surface is present on the engine itself? I bet it's quite a lot, and as such a grille block which limits the flow of underhood air could have a significant effect on engine warm up times.

I know it certainly did make a difference for me when I blocked mine off completely. This year I only blocked half of my upper grille (the shutters cover the lower opening), since I have my block heater working and I don't want the shutters opening and closing all the time to keep the engine cool once its warmed up. Figures this is the year we're breaking cold weather records... doh!

If I had all the time in the world and nothing better to do, it would be neat to pull the engine and insulate it fully and see what type of impact it had. I suspect a fairly significant one.



Robby said:


> The grill opening is dimensioned for worst case scenario......hot, desert weather......the A/C is blasting and the condenser just behind the grill is looking for all the airflow it can get......next is the intercooler, looking for all the airflow it can get......behind those two heat generators is the radiator, doing the best it can with what little comparativly cool air remains.......*I think the engineers got it right*.


Absolutely. 

This is why we're going to see a LOT more active aero on cars in the coming years... smaller more efficient engines, better aero targets, all the while passing the Death Valley torture tests and still surviving in the coldest weather.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Don't forget the effect the turbocharger has. The turbo saps off some exhaust heat which it converts to mechanical energy.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

oilburner said:


> a Volvo was towed into the shop last week would not start, crank no fire after pulling our hair out for awhile we found the pipe between both mufflers had filled up with condensation an froze solid not allowing exhaust flow. we drilled a small hole an heated up the pipe an started an ran fine.
> customer only did short trips.
> was told in trade school yeas ago for every gallon of gas burned 10 gallons of water comes out the tailpipe in condensation.


The more I think about this I guess my tail pipe ice could be worse.... It could be freezing in the sideways muffler.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

spacedout said:


> The more I think about this I guess my tail pipe ice could be worse.... It could be freezing in the sideways muffler.


If that's the case is your exhaust note louder?


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