# Advice on a stereo upgrade



## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

Hello Everyone! I'm picking up my new Chevy Cruze on Saturday (Blue Topaz, 2LT) and I'm debating on having the dealership's aftermarket guys upgrade the sound system for me. The car I'm purchasing has the stock 6 speaker sound system and I'd like to put something better in it. I'm not looking to shake the doors off or anything but I would like a nice full sound. I tend to listen a lot of rock music so anything tailored toward that kind of music would help too! The only problem is I don't have much background in this type of thing so I thought you all might be able to provide a little guidance. The specs below outline the upgrade they are recommending for me. So basically we're just talking about replacing the existing six speakers and adding a sub and an amp. No change to the deck itself (outside of what's necessary to hook up the amp).

What do you guys think of this? Does their recommendation make sense? Would it be worth it? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thanks Everyone!

1-5ch amp (spec below on the amp ) Kenwood
1 pair of comp two way speakers (frt doors)125w/ with x-overs Lightning Audio
1pair of 4-way full range (speakers rear doors)125w max Lightning Audio
1-10" dual 4ohm sub diamond 200w RMS
1-10" ported box

Specifications
CEA-2006 Standard 
40 W x 4 RMS Watts per channel @ 4 ohms, 1% THD+N
300 W x 1 RMS Watts per channel @ 4 ohms, 1% THD+N
80dBA Signal to Noise Ratio (Reference: 1 Watt into 4 ohms)
Max Power Output 1200 W
Rated Power Output 14.4 V 
40 W x 4 / 300W x 1 (4Ω) (20 Hz - 20 kHz, 1.0% THD) (20 Hz - 200 Hz, 1.0% THD)
50 W x 4 / 500W x 1 (2Ω) (1 kHz, 1.0% THD) (100 Hz, 1.0% THD)
100 W x 2/ 300W x 1 Bridged (4Ω) (1 kHz, 1.0% THD) (20 Hz - 200 Hz, 1.0% THD)

Frequency Response 20-20kHz(±1dB)
Input Sensitivity 0.2 V - 5.0 V (MIN-MAX)
Input Impedance 10 kΩ
Signal to Noise Ratio 100 dB
Low Pass Filter Frequency (-24 dB/oct.) 
50 Hz - 200 Hz (variable) Low-Pass Filter Frequency

High Pass Filter Frequency (-12 dB/oct.) 
50 Hz - 200 Hz (variable) High-Pass Frequency

Dimensions (W x H x D) 324 x 55 x 187 mm (12-3/4 x 2-3/16 x 7-3/8)


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

The information I posted earlier is a little thin in some regards. I did some digging and I think I've found the model numbers for the speakers they're recommending from Lightning Audio's site. 

Front Speakers: LA-1652-S
Rear Speakers: LA-1654

I'm going to keep digging but any advice would be appreciated. I'd just like to make sure if I go ahead with this that the end result will sound good in the car with the stock deck. What's everyone's opinion on the stock deck, by the way? 

Thanks again! I'm looking forward to many more conversations on this board after Saturday!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

mj5150 said:


> Hello Everyone! I'm picking up my new Chevy Cruze on Saturday (Blue Topaz, 2LT) and I'm debating on having the dealership's aftermarket guys upgrade the sound system for me. The car I'm purchasing has the stock 6 speaker sound system and I'd like to put something better in it. I'm not looking to shake the doors off or anything but I would like a nice full sound. I tend to listen a lot of rock music so anything tailored toward that kind of music would help too! The only problem is I don't have much background in this type of thing so I thought you all might be able to provide a little guidance. The specs below outline the upgrade they are recommending for me. So basically we're just talking about replacing the existing six speakers and adding a sub and an amp. No change to the deck itself (outside of what's necessary to hook up the amp).
> 
> What do you guys think of this? Does their recommendation make sense? Would it be worth it? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Thanks Everyone!
> 
> ...





mj5150 said:


> The information I posted earlier is a little thin in some regards. I did some digging and I think I've found the model numbers for the speakers they're recommending from Lightning Audio's site.
> 
> Front Speakers: LA-1652-S
> Rear Speakers: LA-1654
> ...


I'd do this yourself if I was you. That, and the parts you listed aren't particularly great. Lightning Audio is not known for their quality or performance. In fact, they're known to be not much more than a budget brand. I personally don't like Diamond subs very much. If you're going mostly for sound quality, I can provide you with a new set of parts to install or have installed. What's your budget for hardware, and would you be willing to do some of this work yourself?


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

i have the stock stereo in mine, i am what you call a audiophile, my home stereo can only be high end equipment, even if it sounds like a million bucks i alwas think it could sound better, right now i have a denon receiver and energy speakers with a polk subwoofer, its not to bad, not as good as my old stereo which was amazing but it was many years old and the cross overs in the speakes burned up, the foam rinngs were coming off the spkeakers and the receiver did not seem to have as much power as it did,

i did not havethe money to spend on the really high end stuff so i got the best book shelf speakers i could find in my price range and a nice reveiver, it sounds great but not as good as my old one. when it comes to the stock setereo in my cruze i am pretty happy with it, to me it does not sound all that good, just kind of OK but when i get in some one else car and hear their factory stereo i always think wow the stereo in my car does sound pretty good. i would like better but its kind of a waist of money to upgrade your stereo system, that is how i look at it, it may not be a waist of money to you or some one else. i perfer to spend the money on my home stereo and not my car stereo these days. there was a time when i would put a nice stereo in my car.


my suggestion is to give the stereo a try.. and if you are not happy with it get a ne one.. lighting audo sucks bad from the ones i have heard, the best speakers i ever had in a car were eitehr polk audio or infinity speakers.. always hated infinty home speakers but they car speakers seem to be awesome for the money...

as far as suboofers and amps i am not sure what all is out there these days so i cant relly reccomend a brand of amp and sub for your car. i halve always liked JL subs over any thing else, i am sure there are better ones out there these days.

i never liked pioneer home stereo receivers but i like the pioneere head units for your car.. they always sounded killer, my pioneere head unit and infity speakrs sounded amazing in my old GTi, the main speakers were run thew a descent amp, my sub was nice in that car, i cant remember what it was but my amp for the sub was crappy but good enough to give it that bass that was missing.. i used the good amp for the main speakers. 

i would like to get a stereo in my car agian but i have allot of other thigns i would rather spend my money on. in some of my old cars the stock radio sounded so bad i did not even turn it on or if i did i left it at really low volume just for some back ground noise, 

i have not heard the cruze stereo with 6 speakers but the stock one is not too bad, i would expect that one to sound better.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

dannylightning said:


> i have the stock stereo in mine, i am what you call a audiophile, my home stereo can only be high end equipment, even if it sounds like a million bucks i alwas think it could sound better, right now i have a denon receiver and energy speakers with a polk subwoofer, its not to bad, not as good as my old stereo which was amazing but it was many years old and the cross overs in the speakes burned up, the foam rinngs were coming off the spkeakers and the receiver did not seem to have as much power as it did,
> 
> i did not havethe money to spend on the really high end stuff so i got the best book shelf speakers i could find in my price range and a nice reveiver, it sounds great but not as good as my old one. when it comes to the stock setereo in my cruze i am pretty happy with it, to me it does not sound all that good, just kind of OK but when i get in some one else car and hear their factory stereo i always think wow the stereo in my car does sound pretty good. i would like better but its kind of a waist of money to upgrade your stereo system, that is how i look at it, it may not be a waist of money to you or some one else. i perfer to spend the money on my home stereo and not my car stereo these days. there was a time when i would put a nice stereo in my car.


How good are you with woodworking? If you have an appreciation for sound, you should get into speaker building. There are hundreds of proven designs out there built by speaker designers and published for everyone to use that you can build a set of speakers off of. What you build will sound better than anything you can buy retail. 

I designed a set of speakers last year that have been dropping jaws and giving people goosebumps every time they listen to them. A buddy of mine thought his floorstanding Infinity towers were absolutely awesome till he heard these. Everyone who I demo these speakers for is humbled. Most end up building their own and selling off their current equipment. 










Linear response down to ~55hz with an F3 around ~50hz in a 12" tall x 8" wide x 13.5" deep cabinet made of solid southern yellow pine. I can provide you with the crossover schematic and full dimensions if you're interested. Total cost of parts (drivers, crossover components, port) is just under $170 shipped. If you used solid wood like I did, you can get a set of these knocked out for ~$250. These are just one of a myriad of excellent designs you can find out there. Head over to www.techtalk.parts-express.com.

If you lived nearby, I'd be more than happy to demo these for you. I can guarantee that you won't find anything better for under $1000 retail.


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks! That's exactly the type of feedback I was hoping to get! I've honestly never heard of Lightning Audio until now. Well, the dealership quoted $1,340 for all of this, so anything at or below that would be doable for me. I'd probably have someone install it, to be honest. Its been a very long time since I've personally done a stereo upgrade on a car!  

If you wouldn't mind recommending a set of parts, I'd appreciate it! Do you think there plan of replacing just the six speakers and adding a sub/amp is a good one?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

mj5150 said:


> Thanks! That's exactly the type of feedback I was hoping to get! I've honestly never heard of Lightning Audio until now. Well, the dealership quoted $1,340 for all of this, so anything at or below that would be doable for me. I'd probably have someone install it, to be honest. Its been a very long time since I've personally done a stereo upgrade on a car!
> 
> If you wouldn't mind recommending a set of parts, I'd appreciate it! Do you think there plan of replacing just the six speakers and adding a sub/amp is a good one?


Yeah, that's a pretty good plan. I actually removed the rear speakers entirely, upgraded the front tweeters and door speakers, and added a subwoofer. Out of curiosity, where are you located?

The reason why I recommended doing this yourself is that you would be able to spend money on better parts instead of spending money paying someone else, and few shops out there can perform a truly clean install. I've read way too many stories of shops screwing up customers' cars. It's up to you though. 

How much bass do you want? What have you heard in the past that you liked or gave you the amount of bass and full sound you're looking for?


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm actually in Michigan (Grand Rapids to be exact) but I'm picking the car up in Chicago. Long story short, none of the dealers in GR could find me a 2LT with a manual transmission. I'd be tempted to do it myself to save costs, etc. but not being very familiar with these systems (and not wanting to screw up my new car) kinda leads me away from that. As far as bass goes, I tend to listen to a lot of rock music so as long as I get that nice thump with the bass drum and a really good full sound I'm pretty happy. I had my G6 upgraded when my rear speakers finally died (another long story, Pontiac likes to do things a little differently when it comes to stereos) and I had a 10" sub put in as part of that and its seems to deliver pretty good bass although it was a bit under-powered. I don't remember all of the brands that went into my G6 but I think we had everything running off of a 4ch 200W amp. I think if I were to do it again, I'd definitely go with a 5ch amp instead. That set up struggled at times especially if I had it one for a long period of time.


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> How good are you with woodworking? If you have an appreciation for sound, you should get into speaker building. There are hundreds of proven designs out there built by speaker designers and published for everyone to use that you can build a set of speakers off of. What you build will sound better than anything you can buy retail.
> 
> I designed a set of speakers last year that have been dropping jaws and giving people goosebumps every time they listen to them. A buddy of mine thought his floorstanding Infinity towers were absolutely awesome till he heard these. Everyone who I demo these speakers for is humbled. Most end up building their own and selling off their current equipment.
> 
> ...





XtremeRevolution said:


> How good are you with woodworking? If you have an appreciation for sound, you should get into speaker building. There are hundreds of proven designs out there built by speaker designers and published for everyone to use that you can build a set of speakers off of. What you build will sound better than anything you can buy retail.
> I designed a set of speakers last year that have been dropping jaws and giving people goosebumps every time they listen to them. A buddy of mine thought his floorstanding Infinity towers were absolutely awesome till he heard these. Everyone who I demo these speakers for is humbled. Most end up building their own and selling off their current equipment.
> 
> 
> ...


unfortunately i am not very close to you, i would love to hear your speakers some time but i am not big on driving long distances, building half pipes for bmx bikes is abotu the extent of my wood working EXP so i am not exactly sure how well i would do at buiding speaker boxes... i have a set of energy C-200 book shelf speakers now, i think i paid about 300 for them and they are some of the best sounding speakers i have heard that cost less than 1000 bucks ( slighly harsh at times though) i like a warmer sounding speaker. i am happy with them but dont love them, but the the money i feel they are exceptional, i was thinking about getting some tube mono blocks, my receiver has the correct out puts to run mono blocks, i figured that might warm up the speakers a bit.. i also have a polk audio 8 inch sub that is amazing, i have never heard a 8 inch sub that could hit the lows like this one does, some one gave me the sub for free and i actually sold my 12 inch subs i liked this one so much, the big subs were great for lows and shook the floor but kind of muddy for music and i am a music guy, i dont wantch that many movies, this little 8 inch sub is not muddy at all and almost produces the kind of lows that the 12 inch subs did, it reproduces any type of bass perfectly. untill this sub dies i have no interest in getting a new sub. 
my old speakers were bipolar mirage speakers, they were about 15-20 years old before they wore out, to this day i have never heard a better sounding set of speakers, they were pure pleasure to my ears.. 
i took a pic of my RC helicopters a while back and the stereo i have now is in the pic so ill post it up..


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

unfortunately i am not knowledgeable about what is out there today as far as car stereo brands available so i probably would not be much help but i am sure someone else can help reccomend some good speakers and amps.. its been allong time since i have been into car stereos


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

mj5150 said:


> I'm actually in Michigan (Grand Rapids to be exact) but I'm picking the car up in Chicago. Long story short, none of the dealers in GR could find me a 2LT with a manual transmission. I'd be tempted to do it myself to save costs, etc. but not being very familiar with these systems (and not wanting to screw up my new car) kinda leads me away from that. As far as bass goes, I tend to listen to a lot of rock music so as long as I get that nice thump with the bass drum and a really good full sound I'm pretty happy. I had my G6 upgraded when my rear speakers finally died (another long story, Pontiac likes to do things a little differently when it comes to stereos) and I had a 10" sub put in as part of that and its seems to deliver pretty good bass although it was a bit under-powered. I don't remember all of the brands that went into my G6 but I think we had everything running off of a 4ch 200W amp. I think if I were to do it again, I'd definitely go with a 5ch amp instead. That set up struggled at times especially if I had it one for a long period of time.


The reason why I asked is because I'm in New Lenox, just a hair over 3 hours away, and I also perform car audio installs. I'd be able to install a system in your Cruze in about a week if you were looking to have someone do it for you. It's up to you. 

Here's what I would recommend for you as far as parts if you were going to do it yourself: 

PAC AA-GM44 adapter: $40
http://www.amazon.com/PAC-AA-GM44-A...e=UTF8&qid=1342718475&sr=8-1&keywords=aa-gm44

Image Dynamics CTX component speakers: $160
Image Dynamics CTX-6.5cs (CTX 65 CS) 6.5" CTX Component Speakers

Infinity coaxials for rear: $60
Infinity 6032cf 6-1/2" 2-Way Reference Series Car Speakers

Massive Audio NX5 5-channel amp: $350
Massive Audio NX5 Nano Block Series 5-Channel Car Amplifier

*OR...*

MB Quart 4-channel amp: $170
MB Quart ONX4.125 - 1000W RMS ONYX 4-Channel Car Amplifier/Amp

*PLUS*

Hifonics 1200W RMS Subwoofer amp: $170
Hifonics BRZ1200.1D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com

Image Dynamics IDMax10 subwoofer: $200
Image Dynamics IDMAX10 V.3 D2 (IDMAX10v3d2) 10" ID MAX V.3 Sub

The IDMax subwoofers are on a ridiculously good sale right now, and they are ridiculously good subwoofers. For some reason, they have gone down in price substantially. By comparison, the IDMax12 is $400. I'd buy this up ASAP before the price goes back up. 

You'll need a good box for that subwoofer. It will shred any pre-fabricated box you try to install it in. I would charge you $175 plus shipping to build you a box for an IDMax10. 

Buy the wire from knukonceptz.com (I can spec you specific wiring). Expect to spend $100-$125 on wiring. 

You'll need adapters to mount the speakers. Crutchfield sells some flimsy plastic adapters for $15 a pair shipped. I also make custom MDF baffles to mount speakers to the doors, for $60 per pair shipped, which includes gasket tape and all of the needed screws. These are routed to fit the specific speaker being used. 

If you were to have me build you the sub box and baffles, you'd be looking at $1230 for all of this, and this is massively better equipment than you were considering having your dealer install.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

dannylightning said:


> unfortunately i am not very close to you, i would love to hear your speakers some time but i am not big on driving long distances, building half pipes for bmx bikes is abotu the extent of my wood working EXP so i am not exactly sure how well i would do at buiding speaker boxes... i have a set of energy C-200 book shelf speakers now, i think i paid about 300 for them and they are some of the best sounding speakers i have heard that cost less than 1000 bucks ( slighly harsh at times though) i like a warmer sounding speaker. i am happy with them but dont love them, but the the money i feel they are exceptional, i was thinking about getting some tube mono blocks, my receiver has the correct out puts to run mono blocks, i figured that might warm up the speakers a bit.. i also have a polk audio 8 inch sub that is amazing, i have never heard a 8 inch sub that could hit the lows like this one does, some one gave me the sub for free and i actually sold my 12 inch subs i liked this one so much, the big subs were great for lows and shook the floor but kind of muddy for music and i am a music guy, i dont wantch that many movies, this little 8 inch sub is not muddy at all and almost produces the kind of lows that the 12 inch subs did, it reproduces any type of bass perfectly. untill this sub dies i have no interest in getting a new sub.
> my old speakers were bipolar mirage speakers, they were about 15-20 years old before they wore out, to this day i have never heard a better sounding set of speakers, they were pure pleasure to my ears..
> i took a pic of my RC helicopters a while back and the stereo i have now is in the pic so ill post it up..


The amp will do little to changing how your speaker sounds. Every amp does sound different, but if it sounds harsh, either the tweeter is crap, or the crossover design is crap. Having designed a few speakers and heard even more, can tell you exactly what causes a speaker to sound the way it does. 

If you don't want to build the cabinets, you could always buy pre-made cabinets like these:
Dayton Audio TW-0.50BK 0.50 ft³ 2-Way Cabinet Gloss Black 302-720
Dayton Audio TW-0.50CH 0.50 ft³ 2-Way Cabinet Cherry 302-722

All you'd need to do is route the coutouts for the drivers and tweeters.


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

Would I still need the sub woofer amp if I went with a 5ch amp as my main? The system in my G6 sounded fine, it was mainly the power drain. Over time I seemed to get hot and occasionally would just need a little break. They spliced everything together so that all six of my speakers and my sub were driven from that one 4ch amplifier.


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks for recommending all of this and for the advice! I appreciate it!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

mj5150 said:


> Would I still need the sub woofer amp if I went with a 5ch amp as my main? The system in my G6 sounded fine, it was mainly the power drain. Over time I seemed to get hot and occasionally would just need a little break. They spliced everything together so that all six of my speakers and my sub were driven from that one 4ch amplifier.


You wouldn't still need the subwoofer amp. The only reason to go with the NX5 would be if you're low on space, as that is a pretty small amp. The other two amps are the same price (actually $10 cheaper for both) and provide you significantly more power. It's either the 4ch + mono amp, or the 5ch. 

Hooking up 5 speakers and a sub to a 4 channel amplifier is just dumb. You run into all sorts of issues doing that.

Don't wait too long to grab that IDMax10. I've never seen them so cheap and the stock probably won't last very long at those prices. I paid $200 shipped for mine last year, and it was used!


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind. First, what's the difference between a 2-way and a 4-way speaker? I noticed the rear speakers that you'd recommended were 2-way whereas the ones recommended by the dealership were 4-way. Also, I noticed that the front speakers you recommended where 4ohm speakers and the back were 2ohm, does that matter? Would they all be set to 2ohm? Is that possible with the front speakers?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

mj5150 said:


> I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind. First, what's the difference between a 2-way and a 4-way speaker? I noticed the rear speakers that you'd recommended were 2-way whereas the ones recommended by the dealership were 4-way. Also, I noticed that the front speakers you recommended where 4ohm speakers and the back were 2ohm, does that matter? Would they all be set to 2ohm? Is that possible with the front speakers?


The difference between a 2 way and a 4 way is simply the number of drivers that are part of the speaker. Some "4 way" speakers have a couple of larger "midrange" speakers built in. They almost always sound exactly the same: mediocre at best. The only reason I even posted them was in case you wanted rear speakers at all, as I personally prefer not to have them. The only good they ever do is making rear passengers more comfortable. 

The impedance won't make a difference. It's simply the amount of resistance that the amplifier sees. The sensitivity will be higher as a result, but you can turn down the gain on the amp to balance that out. If you're at all concerned about it, you can find a 4 ohm coaxial speaker instead.What you put back there isn't important as the sound will be muffled by your passengers' feet anyway.


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

So how does that work from the amp's perspective? Does it see the entire system at the higher impedance or is it by channel? For example, if I had front speakers at 4ohm and rear at 2ohm how does that work? Does the amp push power out as if everything is at 4ohm? I ask just so I can understand how much power each of the amps you've recommended would provide per channel with these speakers. Thanks for taking me to school, by the way. All of this is really interesting and very helpful!


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

I like to have 4 of the same speakers in the car, for small door speakers i just get 2 way speakers. I have mixmatched different front and rear speakers in a car before and usually it was ok but some speakers did not seem to sound so.well together.

You may be happy with only running a amp to the sub and letting the head unit power the door speakers, a good amp to your door speakers does seem to add a bit more clarity and sound quality but i think most people would be ok with out one.

If u want to save money than skip the amp for the door speakers and only run a amp to the subs. U could always add the second amp later.

Just some things to think about.

Sent from my YP-G70 using AutoGuide.Com Free App


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

This is interesting, the site you linked me to says that neither of those speakers will fit a 2012 Cruze. How accurate is that site when it comes to speaker fit or did you anticipate having to use a little elbow grease to get those to fit?


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## mj5150 (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks Danny! That was my initial understanding that all four speakers needed to be the same, but I have a pretty limited amount of experience when it comes to building out systems like this. How much power does the deck actually put out? The deck in my G6 was completely dead, no power at all, which made an amp a necessity.


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

So are you keeping the stock stereo unit and only upgrading speakers.

I don't know how much power the cars radio ( head unit ) will put out, nor do i now how many ohm speakers u can run on it. Lower the ohm the louder the speaker will play on a amplifier but it will drive the amp harder and if the amp so u want to make sure the speakers are not lower ohms than the head unit or amp can handle

Sent from my YP-G70 using AutoGuide.Com Free App


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

mj5150 said:


> So how does that work from the amp's perspective? Does it see the entire system at the higher impedance or is it by channel? For example, if I had front speakers at 4ohm and rear at 2ohm how does that work? Does the amp push power out as if everything is at 4ohm? I ask just so I can understand how much power each of the amps you've recommended would provide per channel with these speakers. Thanks for taking me to school, by the way. All of this is really interesting and very helpful!


Only the specific channel sees a higher impedance. All of the amplifiers posted will do fine at either 4 or 2 ohms. Yes, the 2 ohm speaker will be louder given the same gain, but that's what gain adjustments are for. The amps deliver power based on the input signal. They simply amplify that signal, and you can adjust by how much they provide that amplification. 



dannylightning said:


> I like to have 4 of the same speakers in the car, for small door speakers i just get 2 way speakers. I have mixmatched different front and rear speakers in a car before and usually it was ok but some speakers did not seem to sound so.well together.
> 
> You may be happy with only running a amp to the sub and letting the head unit power the door speakers, a good amp to your door speakers does seem to add a bit more clarity and sound quality but i think most people would be ok with out one.
> 
> ...


If he was going to run the speakers I recommended or anything similar, he'd need an external amp. The factory deck isn't powerful enough to drive a decent set of speakers. It's also more work to add a second amp later. You're already running the wiring for the sub and you'll have the doors and trim panels apart anyway to install the speakers and run power and RCA wiring, so it's a lot easier to run your speaker wiring at that time. 



mj5150 said:


> This is interesting, the site you linked me to says that neither of those speakers will fit a 2012 Cruze. How accurate is that site when it comes to speaker fit or did you anticipate having to use a little elbow grease to get those to fit?


Another guy on here bought those exact same front speakers and they fit perfectly...with the MDF baffles I sold him. I think he has some pictures somewhere, maybe in my Car Audio SQ How-To thread. Nothing will fit _easily _into the Cruze because you have to either buy aftermarket speaker brackets (made of flimsy plastic), or build your own custom ones. That's what I was saying a few posts back. I've been able to successfully fit a 7" speaker in the front doors. Rear doors will not fit anything wider than 6.5" with my brackets, and I don't think they'd fit with the plastic ones either. Here's what I'm talking about:










Looking again, it actually looks like you won't be able to install those Infinity speakers in the rear. They were incorrectly labeled on sonicelectronix as 6.5" speakers. They're actually 6.75", so we'd have to find you a 6.25" or 6.5" coaxial. 



mj5150 said:


> Thanks Danny! That was my initial understanding that all four speakers needed to be the same, but I have a pretty limited amount of experience when it comes to building out systems like this. How much power does the deck actually put out? The deck in my G6 was completely dead, no power at all, which made an amp a necessity.


They don't _really _need to be the same. Without getting technical, having back speakers screws up everything so badly that it won't matter what you use back there. It's the front stage that you're most concerned with, and if you didn't care about your passengers, I'd recommend you do away with rear speakers entirely. A good front stage will create enough ambient sound to give you all the "rear fill" you'd really need. 

Let me put it this way. If you had a great front component set (like the Image Dynamics set I linked earlier), it would be silly to buy an inferior component set just so you could brand-match your front and rear speakers. 

The factory deck is weak; very weak. I'd say it's no more than 8W RMS per channel. I have no idea what impedance it's stable at.


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## tecollins1 (Nov 6, 2011)

These are the CTX 6.5cs (the crossover and the tweeters are not shown, but are included) 
I have them paired with a kicker 350.4 amp
Delivering I believe 60-65 watts per channel which is plenty of power.
They sound very good worth every dollar spent.
The brackets that x makes are very good quality and he includes everything but a power drill and a drill bit. Lol 


Sent from iPhone 4


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

No u don't need the same speakers in front and back but to me i can hear a difference if i don't . i assume car stereo are still, i think they call it quadraphonic or something like that. on a home stereo u have some sounds that may only be sent to the left speaker and some sounds that may only be sent to the right speaker. And a car stereo may send a sound to say the back right speaker only and than it might start bouncing that sound around between the 4 speakers in the car. 

I would always fade the the front speakers so i could hear all 4 speakers and to me that really made the car stereo sound that much 

I would imagine car stereo still bounce the sounds around between the 4 speaker like that like 

Ill pay attention when i leave work today and see if they still do.

Me personally i would like to have 4 matching speakers in the car



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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

dannylightning said:


> No u don't need the same speakers in front and back but to me i can hear a difference if i don't . i assume car stereo are still, i think they call it quadraphonic or something like that. on a home stereo u have some sounds that may only be sent to the left speaker and some sounds that may only be sent to the right speaker. And a car stereo may send a sound to say the back right speaker only and than it might start bouncing that sound around between the 4 speakers in the car.
> 
> I would always fade the the front speakers so i could hear all 4 speakers and to me that really made the car stereo sound that much
> 
> ...


Car speakers don't run off of 4 discreet channels. The rears are nothing more than a duplicate of the front. You don't lose any sound material by fading out the back speakers.

There's nothing wrong with having 4 matching speakers, until you want to get a good sound stage going in the front with components, while the rears are coaxials, and that preference starts to affect your decision making on which drivers to use in the front. 

I couldn't find an Image Dynamics CTX coaxial for the rears or I would have recommended it. Does that mean I shouldn't use their CTX components? Can you find a better sounding component set for $160? I doubt it. Ask yourself what's more important, having the same brand speakers front and rear, or having a better front component set at the expense of a different brand rear coaxial? The answer becomes clear when you hear your first well-executed front sound stage in a car. You realize that rear speakers are not only useless, but undesirable and are only there to please passengers.

Even between speakers of the exact same brand and line, the component version is going to sound vastly different than the coaxial version due to crossover network differences, so it's really a moot effort in the end. I ran Polk DB5250s in my 95 Regal in the front and Polk DB690s in the rear several years ago, and the two sets, despite being part of the same lineup, sounded completely different. 

I'm not trying to argue with you by the way, just continuing the conversation.

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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

I am not trying to argue either.

But There are intact quadraphonic car head units. I thought they were all like that these days but it looks like that has been phased out from what i was just reading. I remember having one and it was pretty cool. 

What u are talking about as far as the sound stage and different front and rear speakers is something i have not heard of. I have not been happy having different front and rear speakers in a car. But the more i think about it i replaced the front speakers and left the rear speakers stock so i was working with a nice set and a happy set of speakers and than i went out and got matching rear speakers. I am not sure that i ever had 2 different sets of good speakers in a car.

But i am just expressing what i remember from when i upgraded the stereo in a couple of cars i had

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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

dannylightning said:


> I am not trying to argue either.
> 
> But There are intact quadraphonic car head units. I thought they were all like that these days but it looks like that has been phased out from what i was just reading. I remember having one and it was pretty cool.
> 
> ...


I suppose in order to have a "quadraphonic" sound, the head unit would have to upmix the 2 channel input into 4 channels. Interesting. I haven't seen anything like that while I've been doing this, but it's kinda neat nonetheless.

I wish you were closer. Sound stage is what the SQ cars strive for, the desire to get the clearest, purest sound possible, to lift the sound stage as much as possible. When you sit in my car, you feel as though the music is right in front of you in your face, not at your feet or behind you, and despite having no back speakers, there's ample ambient sound, enhancing that sound stage. 

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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

_it looks like akron ohio is about 365 miles from chichago that is abit farther than i though it would be..

now that i am home _i just did some more searching but did not really find any thing new, it looks like quadraphonic came to be in the 70's and died out in the 80's because things had to be recorded in that format to get the quad sound out of it and that took up allot of space on the tape or 8 track and they could not fit as much music on it, some radio stations actually borod casted in quadrophonic, it was the origional surround sound that did not work out, i guess you could get home stereo receivers that were quadraphonic as well. 

i did fine one thing saying in the early 90' there were a few stereo models that processed musc into a quadraphonic format with out needing the recording to be recorded in quadraphonic, i wish i would have saved the link about that but i was on my little tablet when i found it, most of the stuff i found about quadraphonic stereos was just going on about 8 track players and stuff from the 70's. the guy that i work with said he also had a quadraphonic system in one of his cars, he also thought they were still around., 

as far as my tweeter being crap on my home stereo speakers, here are the specs for my home speakers. Usable Bass Response - -10dB Anechoic @ 43Hz Anechoic Sensitivity - 88dB 2 speakers in a typical room - 91dB Crossover Point - 2.6kHz Components - Chambered 1 Aluminum Dome, 6-1/2 Composite Fiberglas cone Overall Dimensions WxHxD - 8 (20cm) x 13.75 (35cm) x 10.5 (26.5cm) Approx. Speaker Weight - 13.2lbs / 6kg (1 speaker) Cabinet Finish - Black Ash Included Accessories - Rubber Bumpers Priced per speaker; 2 speakers required for left and right channel 

they actually have killer bass for little guys, they just cant hit the low lows all that well, i think having a aluminum tweater is what makes it sound a bit harsh, i have always liked the sound of a soft done tweater for country music, classical and any thing clean these speakers are amazing, when you get into rock and roll music is when i hear the harshness, but for 300 bucks i could not find a speaker that sounds anywher near this good. if i had the money i probalby would have tried out a new set of the omni polar floor standing mirage speakrs since i loved my old mirage speakers that much, some times i miss being a kid whre i could blow all my money and not halve to worry about it..


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Some of the smoothest sounding tweeters I've ever heard were titanium. It's all based on the design. The crossover in a speaker is everything. If they crossed too low (doesn't appear to be the case but you never know), if the tweeter has some frequency response irregularities that they didn't filter out, or if the tweeter is simply a poor design choice and has some bad harmonic distortion are all things that could affect the sound. Even the amount of damping they used (l-pad), the placement of the tweeter, and the chamfer or roundover on the edges of the baffle will have a significant effect. Unfortunately, manufacturers don't use particularly great parts to build retail speakers, and the crossover networks are overly simplistic and minimalist. Cheap, but ineffective. It's all speculation as I can't look at them myslf. These are all things I think about when designing home theater speakers and choosing tweeters and their crossover points for car audio. I can guarantee people will be blown away when I recommend certain configurations because I've done the research and taken the precision measurements. 

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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

If you're thinking of going with a 5-channel amp, this one is the best deal I've seen, right now. They're on back-order, but the price is valid until it arrives at your house. If you're not in a hurry, for $300, you can't get this much clean power for any cheaper.

ETA isn't posted, but if you really wanted to know, I'm sure you could call them.

1-877-BUY-SONIC


JBL GTO-5EZ

You'd have to look into the IDMAX10 V.3 D4, though, in order to take advantage of the 500 watts RMS x 1 channel @ 2 ohms, which that amp puts out.

Image Dynamics IDMAX10 V.3 D4 (IDMAX10v3d4) 10" ID MAX V.3 Sub

You may want to watch this video. That JBL amp has indicators built in that show if the signal is being clipped or not, which helps in setting the gain levels properly.

JBL Car Audio GTO Amplifier Series - YouTube


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

amalmer71 said:


> If you're thinking of going with a 5-channel amp, this one is the best deal I've seen, right now. They're on back-order, but the price is valid until it arrives at your house. If you're not in a hurry, for $300, you can't get this much clean power for any cheaper.
> 
> ETA isn't posted, but if you really wanted to know, I'm sure you could call them.
> 
> ...


While that is an excellent amplifier, I wouldn't drive an IDMax10 off of only 500W. I'm pushing one in my wife's car temporarily with 400W RMS out of a Boston Acoustics GT-50 and I can't get as much out of it as I did in my Regal with the MRP-M1000. 

If you went with that JBL amp, you could grab an IDQ10 instead, but you'd be paying $10 more and passing up this insane deal. The IDMax10 is a completely different animal than anything I've ever seen before. The motor is gigantic and extremely powerful, and the moving mass is incredibly low for such a high power handling sub. Very musical at moderate volumes (extremely low moving mass), but amazingly powerful at higher volumes (25mm xmax and 3.8" total mechanical excursion).


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

in the 90's energy and mirage were making some of the best speakers i have ever hread for the money, they were both a canadian speaker company, and i am pretty sure they where both made by the same people, klipsch now owns both mirage and energy speakers but they are making the spakers close to to the way the origional company did, which is good if you ask me. 

ofcourse the ones i have are some of the lower end energy book shelf speakers. when i get a good chunk of money saved up again ill probably be looking to get some new speakers, for now i am trying to pinch pennys and i dont plan on buying any thing i dont need for a while, i moved in with my parents and hope to buy a house in the next few years. i have set a budget that does not allow much extra money. when i am in the market for some new speakers i might hit you up for some advice on building my own speakrs, if were both still around on this site. i never really thought about it before but i can see how you could probably get a better set of speakers for less if you dont buy pre made name brand ones.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

dannylightning said:


> when i am in the market for some new speakers i might hit you up for some advice on building my own speakrs, if were both still around on this site. i never really thought about it before but i can see how you could probably get a better set of speakers for less if you dont buy pre made name brand ones.


Probably? More like, without any shadow of a doubt. Take any proven speaker design recommended on techtalk.parts-express.com, and I can guarantee you that it will blow away any commercial speaker you can buy for at least 3-4 times the price you paid to build it. Guaranteed, and that's a statement I will back up repeatedly. 

My Florians design (posted earlier) cost me $250 to build and I recently demo'd them against a pair of Infinity Primus floorstanding speakers for a friend of mine; these to be exact:








Amazon.com: Infinity Primus P363 Three-way dual 6-1/2-Inch Floorstanding Speaker (Black, Each): Electronics

We're comparing $250 worth of parts ($60 of which was the fact that I used solid wood instead of particle board or MDF with a vinyl cover) to $660 worth of massive commercial floorstanding speaker. Mine have one 5.25" driver and a large faceplate 1" tweeter in a .5 cubic foot box, while these had two 6.5" woofers, one 4" midrange, and one 3/4" tweeter in a large floostanding tower. The magnitude of a$$-kicking my speakers gave those floorstanding towers was massive. Not only did my speakers have tighter, cleaner, and more defined bass output (a big surprise given mine had one 5.25" driver compared to two 6.5" drivers), but to any ear, they sounded undeniably superior in every way except for raw bass output. My friend's hairs on his arms stood on end and he got goosebumps listening to one of his favorite opera tracks on my speakers, which by comparison sounded thin, lifeless, and harsh on his Infinitys. That male vocal brought chills down your spine, and you'd turn up the volume without experiencing even a shred of listening fatigue. While the Infinitys made you careful of turning up the volume for fear of a piercing and screeching tweeter, mine just begged you to crank them up even louder and never once was there any discomfort. You'd forget you were blasting music too loud to yell over until your neighbors knock on your door. Cymbals would clash with precision, triangles would ring with amazing definition, and you'd hear sounds in music you never heard before. Vocals and instruments sound rich, full, and life-like. 

That's what you get by building a well-executed and designed speaker, and the designs are out there. 

Have a read through this post, made by Jeff B., a very highly respected member of the DIY speaker community. With the help of a few others, he designed the tools that most of us use to design speakers and crossovers. This man is a genius. 

Personal Commentary on the State of DIY Speakerbuilding

I will quote a few of his words here for others to read if they don't have the time:


> Some well-known names would frequent the board. One of those was Siegfried Linkwitz. I still have a post of his that I copied off in the early 2000’s where he posted an encouragement to the community that we DIYers had the means to surpass what was commercially available because we were not forced to compromise in the way a commercial design needed to...
> 
> ...Twenty years ago very few of us could make the measurements or use them like a speaker company could, but that is no longer the case, today we can do almost exactly the same things (believe it or not I have been contacted by several professional engineers asking for permission to use my design tools on their jobs). And because of this we have reached the point where Siegfried’s statement enters in – we can do this and not compromise anything if we don’t want to. For a one-off-speaker for ourselves we can choose drivers, crossover components, and cabinet construction that mass producers just can’t do unless they want to sell for Wilson Audio prices. Take Dan N’s Echelons, for example, what would a commercial version of that speaker be priced at? $20,000? More?
> 
> I came away from the MWAF convinced that we are there. We have, as a community, not just as a couple of individuals, reached the point where we can build at a level of performance comparable or exceeding that of the _finest commercial offerings_. You can quote me on that – I won’t take it back. I saw and heard too many excellent examples of what I am referring to as proof for my statement. This is the current state of the art of DIY speaker building, and it is state of the art.


I dare you to sell your current speakers and build just one proven design that costs the same price as the sale price of your speakers, and you will never buy another commercial speaker again.

I would gladly put my design up against anything you can buy commercially for $1000 or less.


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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

Good suggestion on that IDQ! :eusa_clap:

While it's not the "insane deal", it may work out better though. It takes 1 cu/ft LESS than the IDMAX.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

amalmer71 said:


> Good suggestion on that IDQ! :eusa_clap:
> 
> While it's not the "insane deal", it may work out better though. It takes 1 cu/ft LESS than the IDMAX.


Not quite. The IDMax10 is recommended at .9 cubic feet _gross_, which is the volume I have it in and it sounds perfect. The IDQ10 is recommended at .8-1.0. It's about the same space. I'm referring to sealed boxes here. I don't recommend any ID subs in vented boxes.

The IDQ is $210, and the IDMax10 is usually $400. If it were me, I'd just drop the extra $30 to get the two separate amplifiers or $40 to get the NX5 which can deliver 800W RMS on the subwoofer channel and allow you to have a much more powerful subwoofer.


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## dannylightning (Jun 24, 2012)

One amp is nice bit i would l buy 2 amplifiers so each thing has its own power source

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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Not quite. The IDMax10 is recommended at .9 cubic feet _gross_, which is the volume I have it in and it sounds perfect. The IDQ10 is recommended at .8-1.0. It's about the same space. I'm referring to sealed boxes here. I don't recommend any ID subs in vented boxes.
> 
> The IDQ is $210, and the IDMax10 is usually $400. If it were me, I'd just drop the extra $30 to get the two separate amplifiers or $40 to get the NX5 which can deliver 800W RMS on the subwoofer channel and allow you to have a much more powerful subwoofer.


Dude. According to the links both you and I provided for the IDQ and the IDMAX, they read

IDMAX
Minimum Sealed Box Volume	1.50 cubic feet
Maximum Sealed Box Volume	1.50 cubic feet

IDQ
Minimum Sealed Box Volume	0.55 cubic feet
Maximum Sealed Box Volume	1.10 cubic feet

1.5 - .55 = .95

That looks pretty **** close to 1 cu/ft to me.

BTW, I'll take JBL 500 watts over Massive Audio 800 watts any day of the week.

Keep in mind, OP, these are just opinions you're getting. Nothing is factual until after the installation is complete. Andrei and I can bicker back and forth all day (which we do quite often LOL) but unless you get a combination that someone has done before (exactly the same), and you've heard it with your own ears and liked it, this is all speculation.

To be truthful, the only reason I'm somewhat agreeing with the recommendation of an ID sub is to save face. If I were to pick a sub to go with the amp I recommended, it'd be the http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_20885_Orion-XTRPRO104.html

I'm sorry I keep picking stuff that's out of stock, though. I guess the stuff's so good they can't keep it in stock.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

amalmer71 said:


> Dude. According to the links both you and I provided for the IDQ and the IDMAX, they read
> 
> IDMAX
> Minimum Sealed Box Volume	1.50 cubic feet
> ...


Yeah, except I have the actual manuals in PDF format for all of them and sonicelectronix is full of ****. Want me to email them to you? .9 cubic feet for the IDMax10. I have one in my wife's car and I built the box. I've built several boxes recently for the IDQs. I don't care what sonicelectronix says.

Orion subs have high moving mass and are purpose built SPL subs, made to be abused for the masses. Completely different from ID subs. Ironically, the IDQ and IDMax subs would still get louder.

Preferences aside, the NX5 actually delivers a solid 800W RMS. The reason for that recommendation was size. It would fit easily under the rear deck. If you're going to get a larger amp, might as well just buy two separate amps that are guaranteed to deliver more than 2x the power.

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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

Easy, killer. I was just going off of what was shown by you and me. I don't print the stuff Sonic posts on their site. I just read it.

And yes, you should always show supporting documentation when disagreeing with someone. Post them here for everyone since they're not readily available to the general public. I would. 

I'm not saying Massive isn't 800 watts isn't "solid" (whatever that's supposed to mean), but JBL is tried and true. The "masses" (as you put it) have been buying JBL amps for quite some time, and last I heard, they're pretty good.

Some may think brand loyalty is idiotic, but sticking with what I know works, isn't. I've heard and used Orion a few times and was never disappointed. Just as you are swayed toward ID. Neither is wrong or right. It's a matter of preference. I've told you before, I've heard ID subs before, and they were OK. But, IMO, they're not the be all, end all of subs. If they were, no other brands would be around any longer.

BTW, have you ran a model of the Orion sub? 1.2 cubic feet tuned at 30Hz is pretty flat response. I think you'll be suprised.

Also, you've stated many, many times that SPL means nothing to you. So why would you claim the ID subs are "louder"? Isn't SQ and a flat response what you strive for? It's what you preach 24/7.

I'll say this once again, for everyone else. Don't think Xtreme and I are at each others' throats. We do this repeatedly. LOL

One more thing, Xtreme...
The OP asked for suggestions (<-plural). That doesn't mean you need to try to beat down suggestions that conflict yours.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

amalmer71 said:


> Easy, killer. I was just going off of what was shown by you and me. I don't print the stuff Sonic posts on their site. I just read it.
> 
> And yes, you should always show supporting documentation when disagreeing with someone. Post them here for everyone since they're not readily available to the general public. I would.
> 
> ...


I tried to attach the manuals, but there's a stupid 19.5kb limit on uploads. Wtf?! Anyways, I was able to get the manual uploaded for the IDMax10. I can email anyone the manuals for the IDMax12, IDQ10, and IDQ12 if needed. 

I know for a fact the JBL amp is a great amp, but I'm not going to assume or believe that it will deliver consequentially more power than it's rated for. If it says 500W, I'll believe it can deliver 500W, and if it says 800W, I'll believe it can deliver 800W, and in this particular case, if an IDMax is considered, it's going to need as close to 1000W as it can get. 500W simply won't cut it. 

There are a few reasons why I recommend ID products. Their customer service is that of a very dedicated small business, not a "profits above all" large corporation, and they stand behind their products. When it comes to subwoofers, you and I both know the most marketed and exposed subwoofers will sell to the masses. Kicker IMO makes terrible subs compared to many other options, but they sell extremely well and nearly every kid on the block knows their name. It's not about quality or performance. 

In their price segment for an SQ based sub, they are extremely few subs that can compete with them, even at 2x the price. You can get slightly better sound with a Morel Ultimo SC, but you're paying over 2x the price for it. I'll let my car do the talking when we meet up. 

I've modeled and designed several Orion subs, but they were usually their HCCA subs. They model well, and they're pretty flat, but there's more to sound quality than a flat frequency response. You can get a flat frequency response with that $18 Vifa tweeter, and you can get a flat frequency response with a ScanSpeak Illuminator, so why do people not just buy the Vifa? Simple; there's more to it than just frequency response. For this particular scenario, the Orion is a fairly cheap sub so it's not really a valid comparison, but I'll throw out the specs just for comparison purposes. The 10" Orion sub has a 500W RMS power handling. Now, one would imagine that the heavier gauge windings on an IDMax10 would cause it to have a higher moving mass. You would think that the extra cone rigidity needed for 2x that power handling, as well as the heat dissipation properties of the cone and former would also increase the moving mass, but design will indicate that there's a bit more to it than that. The Orion sub has a 181 gram moving mass. The IDMax10 is around 120 grams. The specs aren't officially published, but they've been measured before. The IDMax12 even has a moving mass of 141 grams. To add to this, the Orion sub has an xmax of ~18mm, while the IDMax has an xmax of 25mm. Take a guess as to which will be the tighter, cleaner sounding, and lower distortion sub. Then again, the IDMax is a $400 sub...usually. 

I don't strive for ported one note wonder boxes or bandpass boxes to get as loud as possible, but I appreciate a sub's ability to dig deep and get higher volumes, and this is one area where the IDQ and IDMax is a step up above most other subs. While most 10" subs have a cone area of 310-350 square cm, the IDQ10 has a cone area of 399 square CM. Compare to the Orion sub with a cone area of 280 square CM. Heck, even the Alpine 8" Type-R has a cone area of 210 square CM. What this means is that the IDQ will be a more efficient sub with the ability to reach a given level of output with lower distortion than a sub with a lower cone area. The immediate results are in favor of sound quality, but if you are looking for a sub that gets louder, the IDQ can do that too. 

I strive for SQ, but you can bet that if SQ was *all* that mattered to me, I wouldn't have put an IDQ15" sub in my trunk, especially when I have 3 IDQ10s (one Dual 2ohm and two Dual 4ohm versions) sitting around. There are days when I also want to roll down the windows and really pound some bass. It's why I bought the IDMax10 to begin with, and why I'm running the IDQ15 currently. The truth is that it doesn't take much to get something loud. You can walk into best buy, grab a couple of Alpine 12" Type-R subs in a prefabbed ported box, and be heard from a block away, but making it sound good is the hard part. Once you've made it sound good, it's easy to figure out what it would take it to make it louder; just add more subs. 

And yes, we do indeed do this repeatedly, and I enjoy every minute of it. 

ccasion14:


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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

The Orion sub is also $70 less, even with the IDMAX sale price.

It's easy to spend other people's money for them, isn't it? 

Nevermind about buying the Orion sub from Sonic Electronix. There's a nice little pop-up that states the Orion warranty will be voided if purchased from an unauthorized dealer.











Slightly off-topic, since we, once again, hijacked another thread...

I thought ID was acquired by Powerbass, no? I thought I read Eric left because he didn't agree with plans to cut production costs. Are they still being produced the same way, in the USA?

Take this as a question, not a challenge. I just know a lot of people have questioned the company's integrity since the acquisition of ID by Powerbass.



> "Chino, CA (03.23.11) -
> Power Bass USA, Inc. parent company to Image Dynamics USA, Inc. has
> announced the restructuring of the Image Dynamics brand. Acquired in back 2005, PowerBass USA purchased the ownership and trademark of the world famous speaker and amplifier manufacturer from creator Eric Stevens.
> Through the course of their employment both Eric Stevens along with Matt Borgardt has since been instrumental in the development and structuring of the Image Dynamics brand. With the recent developments and restructuring of the company, both Mr. Stevens and Mr. Borgardt will no longer be part of the company. *The immediate plans is to move Image Dynamics into the PowerBass facilities.* "Consolidating Image Dynamics and PowerBass will open many new and exciting opportunities for both companies", Steven Bach - Vice President for PowerBass. "Image Dynamics will maintain steady with
> ...


In addition to that, I found this information, which has yet to be validate by myself, but certainly is interesting to ponder.

So Image Dynamics reopens under the Powerbass Trademark...



> the power bass owner is the son of the owner of the largest speaker builder in china ,they build pioneer ,alpine,kicker,sony and just about every other low to mid level speaker that you can buy ,with the exception of a few.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

amalmer71 said:


> The Orion sub is also $70 less, even with the IDMAX sale price.
> 
> It's easy to spend other people's money for them, isn't it?
> 
> ...


I know the Orion sub is cheaper. I pointed that out in my previous post. I was just comparing what makes a budget SPL sub different from a competition "SQL" sub. That said, the IDMax is $70 more, a 50% increase, but it's way more than just 50% better. 

We also talked about ID and powerbass. As heard from Eric himself on DIYMA, the plan was that powerbass had invested in the company to help get it started, and ID would buy back their share in the company when it grew. Negotiations that ran for several years eventually went sour and Eric and Matt left ID. The IDMax and IDQ subs are still made exactly the same as they were. I installed a set of IDQ12s last month for a local guy and they sounded and looked exactly the same as they did last year. You can't just change materials without affecting T/S parameters, and that makes it an entirely different sub.

That said, the day I start hearing of big quality issues with their subs, I'll stop recommending them. My understanding is their products would remain unchanged. My only issue with Powerbass taking over is that the heart and inspiration behind ID is gone. The ID sub line was legendary from the IDW to the IDQ v1, v2, and v3. It's sad there won't be a v4 designed by the same guys. I will be hesitant to recommend them if they do ever design one, but I haven't read or heard anything to indicate that their current sus are anything different than what they were during the Eric Stevens era.

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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

Nevermind.


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## izzyizz (Mar 11, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> How good are you with woodworking? If you have an appreciation for sound, you should get into speaker building. There are hundreds of proven designs out there built by speaker designers and published for everyone to use that you can build a set of speakers off of. What you build will sound better than anything you can buy retail.
> 
> I designed a set of speakers last year that have been dropping jaws and giving people goosebumps every time they listen to them. A buddy of mine thought his floorstanding Infinity towers were absolutely awesome till he heard these. Everyone who I demo these speakers for is humbled. Most end up building their own and selling off their current equipment.
> 
> ...


Xtreme I would love to follow your plans and build these speakers, oh and the site you posted doesn't work for me


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

izzyizz said:


> Xtreme I would love to follow your plans and build these speakers, oh and the site you posted doesn't work for me


Send me a PM and I'll get you the information.

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