# 1.6 Starting issue - Running backwards?



## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

DarylB said:


> At least 3 times since June (car has approx 6700 miles) I've cranked the car, and it felt like it was running backwards. It ran for a bit, then stopped each time. Violently shaking for a bit, then shutting down . Restarting the car - everything is fine. Anyone else experienced this before?


I don't think anyone has? What year is that Puppy?uppy:


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

2018 1.6 Manual.


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## Taxman (Aug 10, 2017)

If you put it in first and let the clutch out while it's stumbling, I bet it lurches forward. 
But why is it stumbling?
No CEL?


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Running backwards has got to be impossible for any electronically controlled diesel engine. All of the parameters monitored and adjusted by the ECU would make no sense and the engine would simply fail to fire.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Have it fixed under warranty. Let the dealer figure it out. 

But yeah. Cars haven't dieseled since the carburetor went bye bye. I think that was the word for the action.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

snowwy66 said:


> Have it fixed under warranty. Let the dealer figure it out.
> 
> But yeah. Cars haven't dieseled since the carburetor went bye bye. I think that was the word for the action.


Except for when it's an actual Diesel engine... Then it's supposed to diesel! [emoji1787]

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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

There has to be some type of fault code in the ECU for this. Get it to the dealership.. you are under warranty. Let us know what they find. 

My 2017 auto didn't start one morning on first try, but did on the second. It's just that one time in about 8800 miles. No such issue on the 2018 manual in almost 11000 miles. 

Do you have any kind of OBD 2 reader plugged in? It is possible that they confuse the ECU. Had that happen a couple of times, but not a rough start then stall as you described. 

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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

No tunes, tuners, or OBD II readers. happend about twice in 6600 miles or so. I just finished a 1500 mile round trip to iowa, no issues. I do know both times it was a cold crank, after sitting all night in the garage. So you think there's something in the ECM logged even if it didn't throw up a DTC/Engine Light?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

DarylB said:


> No tunes, tuners, or OBD II readers. happend about twice in 6600 miles or so. I just finished a 1500 mile round trip to iowa, no issues. I do know both times it was a cold crank, after sitting all night in the garage. So you think there's something in the ECM logged even if it didn't throw up a DTC/Engine Light?


Maybe it just didn't catch on all cylinders? This isn't uncommon for diesels if the glowplugs didn't finish a warmup cycle - or they might need another if it's really cold.


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

Not sure there, it hasn't been cold. This was in the summer and in my garage so at least 70-80 degrees. I still think it was running backwards or out of time because of the vibrations. Both instances It shut itself off before I could really do anything. It might have ran for 1 full second before shutdown.


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

I am guessing that you have a fuel problem. Either air in the fuel, fuel injector not firing or injector pump not working correctly. A 4-stroke engine can not run backwards. Being that it uses cam shafts the timing is to far off for it to run in reverse. 

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## johnmo (Mar 2, 2017)

You might have a bad fuel injector. Maybe intermittently. I had a fuel injector go bad early on and the main symptom was a really heavy shudder under moderate to heavy throttle. There was one occasion where all of the traction control warnings went off too. Mine kind of came and went for a while, but it finally fully failed. I thought it was a bad flywheel because of the shuddering and how it got worse under load, but it was an injector. Replaced under warranty and no problems since.


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

sledstorm1 said:


> I am guessing that you have a fuel problem. Either air in the fuel, fuel injector not firing or injector pump not working correctly. A 4-stroke engine can not run backwards. Being that it uses cam shafts the timing is to far off for it to run in reverse.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


That's not entirely correct. Diesels can & do run backwards under certain conditions. Perhaps not a common rail engine, but traditional gear driven pumps can. 




Jblackburn - do you know specifically what the dealer could check in the ECM if no codes were thrown? I've got to do a brake recall soon so I'll be taking it into the shop.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Does this vehicle have the auto start/stop feature?


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

Blasirl said:


> Does this vehicle have the auto start/stop feature?


No, just push button start. It's a manual transmission.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

> Jblackburn - do you know specifically what the dealer could check in the ECM if no codes were thrown? I've got to do a brake recall soon so I'll be taking it into the shop.


I have no idea if anything would be stored in the ECM unless something was pending RIGHT after the failed start.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

DarylB said:


> No, just push button start. It's a manual transmission.


I think mine did this today, and now it appears the Dual Mass Flywheel is damanged. I had the clutch in, pushed start, and I might have let up on the clutch a bit early in the start cycle, and WOW, it went nuts... all kinds of noise and I pushed to stop, but it did not stop.. I then went to first and stopped it via the clutch. 

It restarted fine, no codes of any kind, none.. and started making some weird rattles and I'm about certain the DMF is toast. This is a real problem.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

DarylB said:


> At least 3 times since June (car has approx 6700 miles) I've cranked the car, and it felt like it was running backwards. It ran for a bit, then stopped each time. Violently shaking for a bit, then shutting down . Restarting the car - everything is fine. Anyone else experienced this before?


I can now say, as of today, I DID see exactly as you describe, and I think the cause was letting up on the clutch too soon in the start cycle. And now it appears my Dual Mass Flywheel is damaged, as it is making the characteristic noises and vibrations of a failed DMF. By chance, do you think you let up a bit fast on the clutch during the times you have seen this on your car? If I had to hazard a guess, that could also be the problem, and there could be an issue with the car's programming where this happens in that circumstance.


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

I think it's something with the push button start - the ECM/computer turns the starter X number of seconds when the start cycle is engaged. No issues with mine thus far - it always restarted just fine. 

I don't know how it could be the DMF in your case- it would think it would make noise all the time if it was damaged.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

DarylB said:


> I think it's something with the push button start - the ECM/computer turns the starter X number of seconds when the start cycle is engaged. No issues with mine thus far - it always restarted just fine.
> 
> I don't know how it could be the DMF in your case- it would think it would make noise all the time if it was damaged.


The computer does that time only if the clutch pedal stays all the way on the floor.. if you let up too early, it will stop the starter, and I did a couple of times, but way early and it just doesn't start. This time I think I was almost at the end of whatever that time for the start cycle is in the computer, but let up the clutch pedal, and BAM. Crazy times and it did not want to stop. During this brief madness, the MIL light was lit, but upon shut off and restart, no codes were stored in the ECM. 

As to the DMF, prior to this incident today, it did NOT make any noises/vibration like it is now. I had a DMF problem on my Diesel truck, and the symptoms fit that exactly, the crazy vibration, backwards, whatever that was likely contributed to the demise of the DMF, and when you look at DMF design, it makew perfect sense that excessive rotational vibration can break them, they exist to dampen normal rotational vibrations, but that kind of crazy is outside they design limit. If your's has not yet been damaged, I'd say you are lucky, but it is likely this kind of crazy start will shorten the lifespan of the DMF. I'll will be looking into a SMF converson on this car the moment it is out of warranty. The DMF in my truck had issues at abour 30K, and was on it's way to complete failure before 50k. I could see the problem when I removed that 110lb hunk of junk and put in a solid one piece flywheel to replace it, I would much rather have a bit of gear noise and vibration than have a ticking time bomb DMF just waiting to let go, I'm amazed the continue to install these in cars with the high failure rates, but since most last beyond the warranty period, I guess it's not a big issue for the OEMs.


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## 91794 (Mar 25, 2015)

wow, thanks for posting all the details about this maybe-backwards DMF implosion situation. 
someone mentioned fuel/filter/injector. 

VW TDIx4 experience taught me that swapping fuel filter is mandatory for any sort of rough/weird running diesel engine, just to eliminate/inspect to see if water or algae is in the fuel.


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## johnmo (Mar 2, 2017)

MRO1791 said:


> The computer does that time only if the clutch pedal stays all the way on the floor.. if you let up too early, it will stop the starter, and I did a couple of times, but way early and it just doesn't start. This time I think I was almost at the end of whatever that time for the start cycle is in the computer, but let up the clutch pedal, and BAM. Crazy times and it did not want to stop. During this brief madness, the MIL light was lit, but upon shut off and restart, no codes were stored in the ECM.


During normal operation, the computer juices the engine as the clutch is released. It could be that the clutch programming doesn't take into account whether the engine is in start or run mode. Opening up the throttle a little more at just the wrong moment during a start cycle could be a problem.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

eli said:


> wow, thanks for posting all the details about this maybe-backwards DMF implosion situation.
> someone mentioned fuel/filter/injector.
> 
> VW TDIx4 experience taught me that swapping fuel filter is mandatory for any sort of rough/weird running diesel engine, just to eliminate/inspect to see if water or algae is in the fuel.


Thanks, in this case both before and after the engine itself is running fine and just got nearly 57MPG on a trip the prior day, so in my case it's not fuel injector or filter. It was fine before crazy chaos start, and not fine after.. but at highway speed you would not know there is any problem. 

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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Well, Dealership finally got it apart and inspected, and as I told them the flywheel was broken, it was certainly not the clutch release bearing that they hoped it might be. Parts on order. So I can now say with certainty, this "reverse" start conditon can in fact kill that DMF in mere seconds, and I'm pretty sure in my case it was caused by an early release of the clutch during the start sequence. DO NOT do that. It would be good if the engineers had built into the program a way to prevent this possibility, but it appears they did not, and we are talking about a tiny population of cars here, so it is unlikely there will ever be an engineered fix to this issue. There are currently no single mass flywheel options for this car, hopefully there will be in the future, but not yet.


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## BobJacobson (Jan 10, 2018)

Good to know, I just passed 30k miles on my manual. Is the flywheel a powertrain warranty item? Or do they consider it wear and tear like the clutch?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

BobJacobson said:


> Good to know, I just passed 30k miles on my manual. Is the flywheel a powertrain warranty item? Or do they consider it wear and tear like the clutch?


Powertrain

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## 91794 (Mar 25, 2015)

What would happen if one pops the clutch with shifter in reverse, during the "negative rpms" backwards startup? Would the car move forward? Would the flywheel self-destruct? Can someone run the test on a simulator instead of a real car?


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

eli said:


> What would happen if one pops the clutch with shifter in reverse, during the "negative rpms" backwards startup?


If the engine is running in reverse you get one "forward" speed and 6 "reverse" speeds.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BobJacobson said:


> Good to know, I just passed 30k miles on my manual. Is the flywheel a powertrain warranty item? Or do they consider it wear and tear like the clutch?


They are covering it under warranty in my case. It was interesting when they confirmed what I told them it was. The service writer opened up be offering a job. I guess their mechanic was pretty sure it was the clutch release bearing. I knew for sure that was not it. They are still waiting for the parts. I have the Sonic RS hatch for a loaner, compared to the Cruze it's a gas guzzler! I'm getting about 25MPG, where in same driving I get just shy of 50MPG with the Diesel Cruze, both the manual and the 9sp autos, yes, I have three Gen 2s. Even the Gen 1 gets just under 40MPG in the same driving conditions. 

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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Barry Allen said:


> If the engine is running in reverse you get one "forward" speed and 6 "reverse" speeds.


Maybe, but not for long and only at really slow speed! 

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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

eli said:


> What would happen if one pops the clutch with shifter in reverse, during the "negative rpms" backwards startup? Would the car move forward? Would the flywheel self-destruct? Can someone run the test on a simulator instead of a real car?


Well in my case I used first gear, brake engaged and let out the clutch to stop the madness that was happening under the hood.. I would assume it would work for reverse too, and if no brake would move the car at least a little. Keep in mind the reverse run is somewhat a theory. The was zero RPM, the car was commanded to off via push to start yet was continuing it's crazy under the hood. I have to assume there was some residual oil or fuel somewhere to keep it going for those few seconds, seconds that were sufficiently violent for rotational vibration to kill the DMF. Reading up on DMF technology, they are at their most severe load limits at the lowest RPM, 200 to 300 as the most severe. Seems that was what did it in my case.

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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Well, I got it back. Seems dealership did a good job in repairs. Apparently there are updated clutch parts that were new part numbers. That generally means there was some update made from the original part and virtually always due to fixing problems found with the original parts... 









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## mkohan (Dec 19, 2015)

Great to hear!! I hope you have many trouble fee miles.


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## 91794 (Mar 25, 2015)

Mr. O, if convenient, could you ask dealership how much the job would cost if it was not warranty, and whether the powertrain warranty would have covered it after 36,000 miles?


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

eli said:


> Mr. O, if convenient, could you ask dealership how much the job would cost if it was not warranty, and whether the powertrain warranty would have covered it after 36,000 miles?


Next time I go there I will. I would guess at least $2000. The parts I would expect to be at least $800, likely more. Labor to remove the transmission is extensive. 

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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

Just an update on this - just as MRO1791 had posted, my flywheel was on it's way out. It's being replaced at the dealer this week.


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

Underwarranty , New GM flywheel coming. Trying to source a M32 solid flywheel & clutch from overseas


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

I spoke to these guys on ebay - https://www.ebay.com/itm/262878636507?ul_noapp=true & sent my VIN and they said it was compatible. So I believe the 1.9 CTDI engines and our 1.6's are the same stuff for the M32 transmission. Now I'm debating on whether or not to go ahead and get one or ride the warranty on out (11k miles)


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

DarylB said:


> I spoke to these guys on ebay - https://www.ebay.com/itm/262878636507?ul_noapp=true & sent my VIN and they said it was compatible. So I believe the 1.9 CTDI engines and our 1.6's are the same stuff for the M32 transmission. Now I'm debating on whether or not to go ahead and get one or ride the warranty on out (11k miles)


Interesting... I'd contact ID Parts, they are very responsive on their "contact us" tab. Let them know what you found... Since there is a demand I'm sure they have incentive to verify compatibility. If it is a match that will be great to have available. 

As to your current decision... I don't think there is any chance you'll get the dealership to install that.. so if it were me, I'd have them put in the OEM DMF.. and upgrade the clutch, change fluid, etc. Under warranty... Get some miles on it, and later do the SMF conversion when you see the first signs of trouble... 

Also, from what I learned about DMF, you can extend the life of DMF by avoiding low RPM / High engine load driving. The DMF takes in considerable rotational vibration energy at those lower RPM conditions. 

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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

> Also, from what I learned about DMF, you can extend the life of DMF by avoiding low RPM / High engine load driving. The DMF takes in considerable rotational vibration energy at those lower RPM conditions.


Yes, but that kinda defeats the whole purpose of a diesel/small gasoline turbo.

When mine would get stuck on the black 1.4T, it was usually from highway hill climbing in 6th gear @ 2500-2800 RPM, or mountain parkway driving in 4th @ 2000-2500 RPM - right in the meat of the engine's torque band. Plenty of power to do it, but the flywheel didn't seem to like putting all mighty 148 ft lbs of torque through it.


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## johnmo (Mar 2, 2017)

jblackburn said:


> Yes, but that kinda defeats the whole purpose of a diesel/small gasoline turbo.
> 
> When mine would get stuck on the black 1.4T, it was usually from highway hill climbing in 6th gear @ 2500-2800 RPM, or mountain parkway driving in 4th @ 2000-2500 RPM - right in the meat of the engine's torque band. Plenty of power to do it, but the flywheel didn't seem to like putting all mighty 148 ft lbs of torque through it.


Agreed. Mine has a pretty significant shudder in the driveline that I can reproduce by opening up the throttle while climbing a hill, especially over 65MPH, which puts it in the 2000-3000 RPM range.

I don't really want the hassle, but I have extended warranty coverage that should cover DMF failures -- possibly for life. The first time my flywheel isn't a warranty-covered repair though, I'll be looking at the SMF option.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

I could be wrong. But I'm guessing the DMF is needed because of the very low engine idle rpm. 

675 rpms is way too low. Specially for a 4 cylinder. 

In the old days. You had to richen the air fuel mixture screws on the carb just to keep the engine from vibrating the car.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

When I say low RPM, on a diesel that is under 2000. The diesel has much more torque than the gas engine at these low RPMs. I'm not saying such driving is in anyway a positive prevention of DMF failure. It remains a weakness by design. This is why my truck has been converted to SMF. 

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## //oilburner (Mar 9, 2019)

That sounds like a fuel or fuel related delivery issues. I've had my share of bad Diesel (most at cheap independent stations) in my *now gone* 2002 VW Diesel.


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

So after taking the car in on 2/11, finally getting it back today. Flywheel is on national backorder. Picking it up today. Hopefully I can keep the older one a bit and get a solid one made. Aasco Motorsports said they could make one


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

DarylB said:


> So after taking the car in on 2/11, finally getting it back today. Flywheel is on national backorder. Picking it up today. Hopefully I can keep the older one a bit and get a solid one made. Aasco Motorsports said they could make one


I doubt the dealer will let you keep the old, they send the back to GM. Do let us know more about the effort to make a SMF for this car, next time out of warranty I do not want another DMF to be installed!


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## DarylB (Feb 3, 2011)

MRO1791 said:


> I doubt the dealer will let you keep the old, they send the back to GM. Do let us know more about the effort to make a SMF for this car, next time out of warranty I do not want another DMF to be installed!


I've requested with GM/Chevrolet & the dealer to let me keep the old one on a limited basis to get measurements for a solid one.


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## mcorr2016 (Jan 31, 2018)

Thanks to this thread I was able to save my DMF. A few weeks ago I started my car and quickly took off, the car bogged down hard for whatever reason and stalled. I pushed in the clutch to save it but it was too late, it then was able to bump itself into running in reverse because of when I pushed in the clutch. I put the car in neutral and waited a few seconds and it kept running. I hit the start/stop button and it took 4-5 seconds for the engine to stop even with the ignition off. It’s been 3-4 weeks since that happened, and everything seems to be working as normal.
Unsure if I just got lucky, or because I didn’t stall the car out while it was running in reverse saved me. The only reason why I didn’t stall it out was because I remembered reading the high likelihood of a DMF failure if I stalled while it was running in reverse. Hope this can help someone because it definitely saved me lots of headache and $$$$!


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