# Wanting subs



## cndickman (Jan 18, 2012)

It seemed pretty obvious once i got my cruze that the sound system was pretty weak. I'm interested in buying subs so i was just wondering if anyone had suggestions for brands, what size subs to get, and all that good stuff. Let me know!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cndickman said:


> It seemed pretty obvious once i got my cruze that the sound system was pretty weak. I'm interested in buying subs so i was just wondering if anyone had suggestions for brands, what size subs to get, and all that good stuff. Let me know!


A. what's your budget
B. what's your skill level - can you build a sub box? Have you installed an amplifier before?
C. what's your listening preference - just plain loud (SPL), more sound quality and precision (SQ), little of both (SQL)?
D. what types of music do you listen to primarily
E. how much does space in your trunk matter?
F. do you have an amp, and if not, what's your budget including the amp?


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## cndickman (Jan 18, 2012)

I don't really have a budget right now I'm just trying to figure out what good subs and with an amp would most likely cost me. I'm new with all this stuff so i don't know how to install an amp but i would be able to build a sub box. For listening preference most likely i would want a bit of both and i listen to whole range of music from rap, classic rock, hiphop, house music and others. I really don't put much in my trunk so space isn't a big issue for me.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cndickman said:


> I don't really have a budget right now I'm just trying to figure out what good subs and with an amp would most likely cost me. I'm new with all this stuff so i don't know how to install an amp but i would be able to build a sub box. For listening preference most likely i would want a bit of both and i listen to whole range of music from rap, classic rock, hiphop, house music and others. I really don't put much in my trunk so space isn't a big issue for me.


You can put together something nice for anywhere from $250 to $1000 for daily driving level performance. It really depends on your budget. 

Some people will recommend the Bazooka subs, but they're honestly terrible and will never hold a candle to a real sub.

I design professional sub boxes and audiophile home theater speakers, so I can design you an incredible sub box, it just depends on the sub you end up going with. Sundown Audio and SSA make excellent subs for general purpose listening. It really depends on how much money you want to spend. You're looking at $80 for wiring, $40 for the PAC LOC, and then comes the sub and the sub, amp, and box.


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## integman (May 2, 2011)

i would recomend rockford fosegate and smd for subs and amps (not cheap by the way) and go to www.davetheboxguy.com he makes good sub boxes

edit:sonic electronix has good deals


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## zr1000a1 (Jan 25, 2012)

When I first read the title of this thread, I immediately started craving a J.J. Gargantuan!:tututtongue4:


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

integman said:


> i would recomend rockford fosegate and smd for subs and amps (not cheap by the way) and go to www.davetheboxguy.com he makes good sub boxes
> 
> edit:sonic electronix has good deals


Sonicelectronix has great deals. Onlinecarstereo is also good. 

Not sure if I specified, I design sub boxes for specific subs, purpose built for the the of music someone listens to, designed around their specific car's cabin transfer function (cabin pressurization gain and boundary loading). Not all subs work well in vented boxes, not all subs work well in sealed boxes, and not all subs sound great for all types of music.


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## cndickman (Jan 18, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Sonicelectronix has great deals. Onlinecarstereo is also good.
> 
> Not sure if I specified, I design sub boxes for specific subs, purpose built for the the of music someone listens to, designed around their specific car's cabin transfer function (cabin pressurization gain and boundary loading). Not all subs work well in vented boxes, not all subs work well in sealed boxes, and not all subs sound great for all types of music.


Alright thanks a lot i'll definitely have to look at those two cites and keep looking around. It's still real early in the process for me in deciding what i want to get and how much i'm willing to spend


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## integman (May 2, 2011)

yea davetheboxguy makes more of the spl boxes


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cndickman said:


> Alright thanks a lot i'll definitely have to look at those two cites and keep looking around. It's still real early in the process for me in deciding what i want to get and how much i'm willing to spend


I would spend $150-$200 on a sub if you want something decent that you can keep for a while. Otherwise, you'll just get sick of it after a while and lose a lot of money on it. An amp will run you about $150 for something decent. 

Here are a couple of things I'd recommend off the bat. A few months ago, a company called T3 Audio decided to restructure. Under new management, etc. They offloaded their old inventory, and their higher end subs flew off the shelves for insanely low prices. They didn't last long. Some of their lower end model subs are still available. I member on another board took my advice and built one with one of these subs. He is beyond impressed. He spent $250 total, sub, amp, box and parts, and this thing pounds, and I mean hard. They are very high quality subs, but designed mostly to take a beating. This would give you a way to get into the environment and see if you like it before you spend more money. 

T3 Audio T400-12S4 12" 400 Watt Subwoofer 4 Ohm 269-088

You're looking at about 2 cubic feet gross volume for one of those and they would put at least 4 bazooka tubes to shame. Here's what his project looked like:


























He built this to spec exactly how I told him to with the exception of caulk on the inside, which I told him was unnecessary. He took a video as well:






Here's what he had to say about this sub:



> Definitely beats that bazooka tube I had prior. Oh, and it definitely surprises a lot of people. A kid right down the street from me spent $1200 total on his whole audio system. He has 2 12" kicker subwoofers. I have never been in his car but sure have heard it from the outside, and if loudness is what he was going for im right next to his, let alone I have always heard not so great reviews of kicker. When I told him I spent only $270 about on a whole upgrade except for the rear speakers he was quite surprised. Even if I added the cost of the receiver that would still bring it below $400.







> Yupp, I have cranked it a LOT actually. Dad was next to me on the highway a day ago and I pulled up next to him at the light and let it go. When I got home later he said he could feel it in his car and was like it is ridiculous haha. Have had a few girls not be able to handle its loudness, so it gets pretty up there.
> 
> The song Kyoto by Skrillex definitely has to be one of the best it hits on. I've had a lot of people be like...W.T.F. when I tell them the total build cost was under $200 for everything related to the subwoofer. I have a lot of people be like thats how much I spent on my amp alone haha.




He still has to carpet the box, but he was too excited to have the project done so he kinda skipped that step, lol. Needless to say, the sub box design is *everything*, and I'll design you one for free. 



If you want something a bit more higher end as a more sound quality based sub that would work well in a smaller box, here's what I'd recommend:
Dayton Audio RSS315HO-44 12" Reference HO DVC Subwoofer 295-467

Hit me up when you're ready to start building and I'll walk you through the whole thing including box construction.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

integman said:


> yea davetheboxguy makes more of the spl boxes


I truly dislike SPL boxes. "One note wonders" is what we call them. Making a sub sound loud isn't that difficult. Making it sound loud when you want it and making it sound precise and accurate when you don't feel like pounding your brains is where designing a sub box becomes an art.


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## boats4life (May 28, 2011)

I might need you to help me out sometime. I despise the kit system I bought, but don't really have the tools to build a box right now, so...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using AutoGuide.com App


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

boats4life said:


> I might need you to help me out sometime. I despise the kit system I bought, but don't really have the tools to build a box right now, so...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using AutoGuide.com App


I can build you a box, but it wouldn't be cheap. Materials, shipping, and construction. I don't charge for the design, just the work it takes to build it. You'll find most custom box designs start at $500 for something really cheap and go up from there. I usually charge around $200 for parts and labor, and the rest is shipping, and leave it to you to carpet the box since just about anyone can do that on the street with some 3M adhesive spray and a utility knife, and it lets you choose the color you want. 

But, I don't like doing that. I do like building boxes, but I'd rather teach someone else how to do it too and just give them the design to go off of. The kid that built the sub box in the pictures I showed you had no tools. He used a jigsaw to cut out the hole!

So here's what you'd need to build a sub box:

1. glue
2. jigsaw
3. minimum of 6 wood clamps

You can get the wood clamps at harbor freight. You can have home depot make the MDF cuts for you, and they're usually pretty good on precision. Even if you bought all the clamps, you'd be cheaper than if you had someone else do it. 

18" Quick Release Bar Clamp

Prefabbed boxes are complete garbage. Stay the **** away. I have *never *seen a well built prefabbed box. 

Feel free to ask me any questions. If that kid could do it with clamps he borrowed from several of his neighbors, I'm sure you could do it too. Its a great learning experience and you start to get into the hobby a bit more.


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## boats4life (May 28, 2011)

I've built boxes before, even done fiberglass, but was never sure how to tune a box correctly. I'll have to talk to the wife about starting a slow build for the system, a single 12 and roughly 600-1000 watts would be good enough for me...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

boats4life said:


> I've built boxes before, even done fiberglass, but was never sure how to tune a box correctly. I'll have to talk to the wife about starting a slow build for the system, a single 12 and roughly 600-1000 watts would be good enough for me...


Sounds like you're not new to this, lol. Good to hear you've done this before. 

You can use an online calculator to calculate a box tuning. However, those are terrible and don't factor in the sub's parameters. You can move a step up and use applications like unibox, bassbox pro, and WinISD, but even then, all you get is a raw frequency response. The problem with that is that it won't measure anywhere near what it looks like in the simulation due to cabin pressurization gain and boundary loading. Because you're pressurizing such a small car, lower frequencies will have a significant boost in output. What looked like a flat frequency response on paper looks like a peaky one note wonder in the car. 

The software I use allows me to simulate the cabin's transfer function and apply that to the frequency response to get you a useful idea of what your sub is going to sound like in your car, then adjust the tuning around your specific vehicle so it sounds the way you want it to. 

A single 12" sub sounds good, but do consider what kind of 12" sub. Also consider that power rating is not everything. I have all Image Dynamics equipment in my cars, and there's a reason for that. I can make my IDQ10V2s (made in 2002) blow you away with 50W of power. VERY transparent sounding subs, very sensitive, and very musical. 

It takes 10db to create a perceived 2x increase in loudness. Keep in mind that you gain 3db by either doubling cone area or by doubling power input, so what looks like a high power handling sub might not actually be the louder sub, and you may find some subs such as the IDQ15V2 subs (I have one) that will fit in a sealed box that's smaller than most 12s and get quite a bit louder due to a higher cone area and sensitivity.

Please excuse me if I've covered things that you're already well aware of.


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## TRZOCRUZE (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi ExtremeR,
Can you help me design a box? I have the T3 12" 400W in a prefabbed box which I'm not thrilled about the sound it puts out. I mainly listen to classic rock/blues and jazz and sometimes pop. I have no experienced in building a box but I consider myself handy. What is important to me is space, it has to be as small as possible without sacrificing too much of the sound quality. 
Thanks.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TRZOCRUZE said:


> Hi ExtremeR,
> Can you help me design a box? I have the T3 12" 400W in a prefabbed box which I'm not thrilled about the sound it puts out. I mainly listen to classic rock/blues and jazz and sometimes pop. I have no experienced in building a box but I consider myself handy. What is important to me is space, it has to be as small as possible without sacrificing too much of the sound quality.
> Thanks.


What kind of box do you currently have? Do you have any specs? Ported or sealed? If ported, do you have the port dimensions? 

You'll have to build a box no matter what, but I'd at least like to know what you've got now. This sub doesn't do too well sealed, and a ported box would have to be decent sized in order to sound good. Simply put, this sub does not do well in small boxes at all. I can walk you through the process of building a box one step at a time. 

The best box I was able to design for this sub without going stupid large is 2 cubic feet, using one 4" double flared port, 17" in length.

You'd need this port:
Precision Port 4" Flared Port Tube Kit 268-352

Let me know if you have any questions. This was designed using cabin gain and boundary loading factored in. For a more SQ based box, I'd recommend lining the walls with thick acoustic foam or 3" fiberglass insulation pad. Two sheets of this should work:

Acoustic Foam 2-1/2" x 24" x 18" UL 94 260-515


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## TRZOCRUZE (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm using Atrend E12S B box 10 x 13 x 15.5" sealed. I picked this mainly for it's compact size.
I guess my box is too small for the sub so if I were to keep the box and loose the sub, which sub would you recommend for this box? I don't need a super loud sub just well balanced.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TRZOCRUZE said:


> I'm using Atrend E12S B box 10 x 13 x 15.5" sealed. I picked this mainly for it's compact size.
> I guess my box is too small for the sub so if I were to keep the box and loose the sub, which sub would you recommend for this box? I don't need a super loud sub just well balanced.


Yeah, no wonder it sounds like crap. First off, that sub is not made for a sealed box, and second, it won't sound good in a small box, lol. That's actually only .8 cubic feet internal. WAY too small for that sub. 

What's your budget?

Off the top of my head, if you just wanted to add a bit of thump to your ride and wanted a sub that could sound absolutely amazing but take up little space, on a budget you'd be looking at the Alpine Type-R 8". Don't underestimate this sub. It will put out some serious bass and keep up with most 10" subs. 

I recommend this sub because its not like the 10" or 12" Type-R subs. It is a different animal entirely. The motor strength to cone mass ratio is MUCH higher, which puts this in a whole different league of SQ subs while the 10" and 12" are more general purpose/spl subs. Last I checked, you could snag one on sonicelectronix.com for about $100 or so. They work well in ~.5 cubic feet sealed or 1 cubic foot ported, but one will absolutely blow you away in a ported box. That is, if you wanted a great sounding sub and didn't need to go too loud. 


If you don't mind going used, snag this guy:















Image Dynamics IDQ-12 12 Inch Subwoofer Sub Dual Voice Coil | eBay

I have 3 of the 10" version and one 15". I guarantee you that you will NOT find a single sub for $100 that will sound as good as this sub is. These things hang with the likes of the $800 Morel Ultimo for sound quality, transparency, and musical sound. Words cannot describe how clean they are and how beautiful they sound.

Read up anywhere you want to, the IDQ V2 subwoofers by Image Dynamics are on a short list of the best SQ subwoofers ever made. The guy I bought my first two 10" IDQ subs from won the MECA State Class A SQ Championship with them in California. I kid you not, they are *that *good.


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## TRZOCRUZE (Aug 3, 2011)

lol. you're right it sounds like crap! So if I go with IDQ-12 what size box should I buy? Ported or sealed? Can I used the one I have now? My budget is $100 more or less since I already got the T3 and
maybe I'll just sell it to recoupe some money so I can use it towards a new sub.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TRZOCRUZE said:


> lol. you're right it sounds like crap! So if I go with IDQ-12 what size box should I buy? Ported or sealed? Can I used the one I have now? My budget is $100 more or less since I already got the T3 and
> maybe I'll just sell it to recoupe some money so I can use it towards a new sub.


I think you'll be good using your current box with regard to volume. The IDQ V2 drivers sound amazing in small sealed boxes; they were actually built for that purpose. The IDQ10 sounds perfect in .5-.6 cubic feet, so you'll be good to go with the IDQ12 in .8 cubic feet. 

I would however build your own box as soon as possible as most prefab boxes I've seen are built like crap and end up leaking in no time. I can walk you through that whole process. You will be very happy with the IDQ12 though.


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## Jedslack (Mar 15, 2012)

I have got an fi ssd. Its in a sealed box, but i am contemplating building a ported box. Only problem is that my sub was designed for a sealed enclosure(high qts). Would that cause a problem in a vented enclosure? Running a fosgate t5001 983 watts @ 1 ohm. Is this hread hijack?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Jedslack said:


> I have got an fi ssd. Its in a sealed box, but i am contemplating building a ported box. Only problem is that my sub was designed for a sealed enclosure(high qts). Would that cause a problem in a vented enclosure? Running a fosgate t5001 983 watts @ 1 ohm. Is this hread hijack?



This is fine here. I need the following information:

1. Sub's T/S specs. Specifically:

Fs (Hz)
Vas
Qes
Qms
Sd
Xmax
2. Dimensions of your current box
3. Car this is going into
4. Maximum internal length of the car. This is usually from the end of the trunk at the tail lights to the front edge of the windshield.
5. Distance from center of subwoofer to floor
6. Distance from center of subwoofer to nearest side wall
7. Distance from center of subwoofer to wall behind it. Seats don't count. 
8. Amplifier make, model, and power output
9. Amplifier high pass/subsonic filter if available (for example, adjustable from 10-60hz, 24db/octave)
10. What is your primary goal? Sound quality, SPL, combination of both, smallest size possible, etc. 

I'll model up your old box and then try to model a ported box to see if it would sound good. My guess is you're looking for a bit more output?


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## TRZOCRUZE (Aug 3, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I think you'll be good using your current box with regard to volume. The IDQ V2 drivers sound amazing in small sealed boxes; they were actually built for that purpose. The IDQ10 sounds perfect in .5-.6 cubic feet, so you'll be good to go with the IDQ12 in .8 cubic feet.
> 
> I would however build your own box as soon as possible as most prefab boxes I've seen are built like crap and end up leaking in no time. I can walk you through that whole process. You will be very happy with the IDQ12 though.


Thanks XtremeR. I think I'll go with IDQ-10 the smaller the better for me. I'll see if I can find a used one.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TRZOCRUZE said:


> Thanks XtremeR. I think I'll go with a IDQ-10 the smaller the better for me. I'll see if I can find a used one.


Good luck with that. There aren't many of these drivers left, although they do occasionally pop up on on ebay. They started production on the IDQ V2 line in 2002. I paid $200 for my two subs shipped, although they are in mint condition. I'd snag the 12" while its still there, but that's just me. These are SQ subs after all so don't expect to abuse them like an Alpine or Kicker sub. I've heard my IDQ10s snap a couple of times on some very bass heavy songs at high volumes, but we are talking some high volumes.


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## Jedslack (Mar 15, 2012)

mine is the dual 2 ohm, these are the specs

Dual 1 ohm | Dual 2 ohm
Fs: 31.0 Hz | 0 HzRe: 0.7 Ohms/coil | 1.4 Ohms/coilQms: 7.07 | 7.07Qes: .35 | .35Qts: .33 | .33Mms: 223g | 223gCms: 0.12mm/N | 0.12mm/NSd: 310cm^2 | 310cm^2Vas: 15.9 l | 15.9 lSpl: 83.2dB 1W/1m | 83.2dB 1W/1mBl: 13.1 N/A | 18.7 N/AXmax: 20mm Rms: 1000W Sealed box: H-Qts .2-.4 cuft Ported box: .6-1.2 cuft @ 33Hz Sub OD: 11.000” Cut ID: 9.250” Mounting depth: 6.000” Displacement: 0.12cuft

2. current box is .8 cu ft before displacement
3. 2012 chevrolet cruze eco
4. not sure
5. not sure
6. sub will be centered
7. sub can be placed anywhere in the trunk
8. rockford fosgate, t5001, 983 watts @ 1 ohm
9. I do not think that there is a subsonic on this amp
10. sql
11. I am looking for options, I will not be installing the sealed box until this weekend, but I know how I get with this kind of stuff, I'll be looking for a project to build in the next 2 months to try and squeeze a little more out of the sub. I do not want to sacrifice too much quality for db's though. I am under the impression that with the correct box, even in ported, you can get a very flat response


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Jedslack said:


> mine is the dual 2 ohm, these are the specs
> 
> Dual 1 ohm | Dual 2 ohm
> Fs: 31.0 Hz | 0 HzRe: 0.7 Ohms/coil | 1.4 Ohms/coilQms: 7.07 | 7.07Qes: .35 | .35Qts: .33 | .33Mms: 223g | 223gCms: 0.12mm/N | 0.12mm/NSd: 310cm^2 | 310cm^2Vas: 15.9 l | 15.9 lSpl: 83.2dB 1W/1m | 83.2dB 1W/1mBl: 13.1 N/A | 18.7 N/AXmax: 20mmRms: 1000W Sealed box: H-Qts .2-.4 cuft Ported box: .6-1.2 cuft @ 33Hz Sub OD: 11.000” Cut ID: 9.250” Mounting depth: 6.000” Displacement: 0.12cuft
> ...


You can sometimes get a raw flat response with a ported box, but to get a flat in-cab response with a ported box almost always means tuning way low with a large port, larger box, and using acoustic foam or fiberglass on the inner walls. 

Since you didn't get me any measurements in-cab, I'll use the measurements I have for a 2008 honda civic since they'll probably be pretty close.


*Sealed *looks predictably good in .68 cubic feet net. A very low Qtc of .45 means it will sound tight and will have some very good transient response. You have a bit of a drop-off in response below 30hz, but that's expected in a sealed box and not at all an issue considering sub material rarely goes below 30hz. You'll be good to cross this sub around 80hz. The frequency response is flat above that, but the 223 gram moving mass makes this sub a bit unsuitable for all-out SQ regardless of motor strength. Compare that to my IDMax10 sub, which is also rated for 1000W RMS but has a moving mass of around 120 grams. Just want you to be aware of what you're getting into. 

At 1000W, excursion looks good. 

*Vented *doesn't look good at all. You've got a very high peak at the tuning frequency that will sound very boomy. Don't even try it. It looks so bad that I didn't even bother uploading the images for it. 

Images are attached for the frequency response and excursion model of the sealed box.


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## Bromezz (Sep 28, 2011)

zr1000a1 said:


> When I first read the title of this thread, I immediately started craving a J.J. Gargantuan!:tututtongue4:


Yes! Those are so **** good.

Also...IOWA PRIDE!


Polk Audio makes some good stuff. Good quality.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Bromezz said:


> Yes! Those are so **** good.
> 
> Also...IOWA PRIDE!
> 
> ...


For components and coaxials, yes. Their MM and DB series are great, although the DB are lacking in midbass. However, they do not make great subwoofers.


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## Jedslack (Mar 15, 2012)

Thank you for your response. I was thinking about a 4th or 6th order box. I just don't quite understand cabin gain, therfore I am afraid that if I design a box for an open room (winisd) that I will end up with an even greater peak. Could you tell me what frequencies are most greatley influenced by cabin gain? And is this a gradual rollof into the less influenced frequencies or is it sudden?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Jedslack said:


> Thank you for your response. I was thinking about a 4th or 6th order box. I just don't quite understand cabin gain, therfore I am afraid that if I design a box for an open room (winisd) that I will end up with an even greater peak. Could you tell me what frequencies are most greatley influenced by cabin gain? And is this a gradual rollof into the less influenced frequencies or is it sudden?


Let me give you some advice here. If you want more output, get another (second) sub or sell yours and get a different one or a bigger one. This sub will not work well in anything other than a sealed box. Do not go with a 4th or 6th order bandpass box; it will sound like **** and be VERY peaky. If you understand the fundamental function of bandpass boxes, they allow a narrow frequency range to pass through at a significantly increased volume. They are very difficult to design in order to make them sound good, and their sole purpose is SPL. This is not an SPL sub. This is a general purpose small sealed box sub. 

Ever used a home theater sub before? Did you notice that if you put it in the corner of a room it sounds louder than if you put it in the middle of the room? 

Here's a chart of the measured cabin gain in a variety of vehicles using the same sub. Keep in mind, this is the measured gain, not the actual frequency response. This is how much the raw frequency response is boosted by the car's cabin. There will be some variation depending on where in the car you put the sub, but this gives you a general idea.


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## brobak (Mar 22, 2012)

So, I'd like to take advantage of the information in this thread to come at this question a different way. I used to have a stealth box from jlaudio in my C5 and given that I have an Eco Cruze without a spare tire, I have a strange little space down there that I'm thinking about designing a box for. I was wondering, given the dimensions of that small space that is otherwise unused, what would be a good sub that would best take advantage of the space that would come out of a box that was built to fit into the hole?


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