# IMO one of the many reasons the domestic carmakers don't get it.



## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

A bit about me......I buy cars....a lot of them.....over 20 in the last 13 years.
I am not a fleet buyer, I am a enthusiastic owner.
I have been a enthusiest for over 45 years and currently own 11 vehicles.....one of which is a import (Miata)

This is what I've learned over the years and I will be sort of G.M. specific......but all domestic carmakers fall into the trap.
I'm discussing 'Decontenting' the art of introducing a well equipped product and then handing it over to the 'Bean Counters'
Their mission is to remove content, or determine a cheaper way to present the product to the public, and make them believe the product (in this case we will use the Cruze) is a better value than the preceeding model year.
With that in mind, lets look at, uh, Toyoissanonda.....the Asian big three.....generic, throwaway s'boxes.
What these folks do, every year, is ADD something.....maybe some trim, a more attractive wheel package, a electronic gimmick, maybe additional lighting, either interior or exterior......but always something to freshen the product.....this makes it something that someone bought two years ago, new enouph in appearance or function to justify replacing that vehicle with the latest, greatest version.

The big three (actually four back in the day) used to follow this path and the Asians learned that lesson well and exploit it to the max.

Today, lets look at the Cruze.....because I have one and looked at the 13's and now the 14's.
When I purchassed my 12, I had, many months earlier, looked at the 11's.....specifically the eco, and even drove one. At that time the eco was only available as a 6m and even though it was one of the nicest shifting front drive manuals I had ever operated, I kinda was leaning towards a auto.
With that exception, I kept the car on my radar.
A bit of studying also revealed that the Z-Link (watts link) was only found on the 1LT, 6m or auto, 2LT, 6m or auto, and the LTZ.
Knowing the purpose of this component, and wanting my car so equipped.....I was leaning toward a 2LT auto but no RS package.
Late in the 11 MY, the eco was introduced with a autobox, the Z-link, and a actual spare tire.
This got my interest because I really wanted to avoid a leather interior on a DD.

With the introduction of the 12's, I concluded that the eco auto would fit nicely.
The right engine (T) a autobox, a spare, the lowered eco suspension in conjuntion with the Z-Link, cloth interior, and the basic radio.
Perfect......I bought one.

What do you think the first thing I picked up on after I got it home?...........Some bean counter at Chevy decided I don't need a light in the glovebox anymore.....a feature that I thought was a nice touch on the 11's.
So, once again cursing the decontent mentality I looked for anything else that Chevy screwed me out of for 12.
So far, so good, looks like that and a battery cover were the only things I could find missing but begs the question......I know they didn't stop there.....there'll be something else down the road...I just havent found it yet.
Trouble with this is it tells me young, fresh out of school folks are involved with this......wait till THEIR eyes are 60+ years old and they are trying to locate something in the black hole of calcutta called a glove box.

So, anyways, moving on to the 13's.....looking at a new eco.....just cause I can.
Whats this? where'd the Z-Link go???? Oh, for 2013 it only comes with the 1LT if it has the RS package.....otherwise it is now only standard on the 2LT and the LTZ........BUT LOOK......it now has a six speed blower motor switch.......and this gigantic radio that a guy my age wants nothing to do with.......Christ, it needs its own operators manual.

And the price went up (of course).
GM's theory is......you aren't comparing the car to our last years product so you won't know what we removed......annnnnd we put a more complex radio in it so you can digest the price increase.

So, what happens is, folks like me that might flip a car every two years, instead, are forced to wait for the next generation to appear.....then, in typical GM fashion, it'll have lots of nifty features they can slowly remove as the car goes through its life cycle.
So, to GM (and the other domestics) You are still missing the boat! Old habits die hard....but your gonna have to get the bean counters out of the room......they are killing the sales to buyers like me.

And its not just the Cruze.....I have my wife driving a 08 (first year) Malibu LTZ......Fabulous car!.......TONS of content......adjustable pedals (she is vertically challenged) that work well for two drivers (I'm not vertically challenged).....a nifty shade that rolls up from the package shelf to block the summer sun and help the AC be more effective, lights aplenty, a radio that is still beyond me but thats another story......where I'm headed here is many nice features......all the way down to the repeater lights on the front fenders.
We looked at the 09, 10, 11......each had less content.....the pedals were gone for 09, also the repeaters....I don't remember specifics....but for 2010 the 3.6, which had been standard on LTZ became an option.....now THATS serious decontenting eh?
But it is the GM way......for some reason, they don't get it.
I will keep buying GM.....I really have had great success with the product......They would see me more often if they would look at their past and see that ADDING a bit of content is what makes lookers turn back into buyers.

I like to use the outgoing generation of the Corolla as a example......look at each year of this generation....what stands out?
Each year has some new feature, something that makes the buyer look at the car as a better value than the year before.
Something that a salesman can point out as a 'Look what they did for 2014!'

Com'on GM......Wake Up!!!!!!!! I don't have that many car buying years left! MOTIVATE ME!

Rant over,
Rob


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

Never thought of model-year changes like that. 

And have no fear. Toyota and Honda do similar things. Like not updating the Corolla for ages, or decontenting the '12 Civic so much that Consumer Reports scored it too low to recommend. Luckily the bean-counters figured out that they'd get more beans redesigning it instead of advertising its flaws as advantages. 

GM is showing flashes of breaking out of the bean-counter mentality. Look at the '14 Malibu. Folks panned the '13's so badly that they rushed through a pretty big redesign for MY 2014. 

For the Watts link, there's little to no difference in handling in the real world. At the Watkins Glen meet two Watts link equipped cars had difficulty keeping up with my torsion-beam Eco. And, that fancy radio needs to be paid for somehow. 

I'm not trying to rebut your argument, just present what I believe is the mentality behind those changes.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

I like the link for street driving but if you recall, Chevrolet went to great lengths describing the time the Corvette engineers spent on that specific component and its positive effects at the 'ring' during development.
And you really can't deny the effect a link has for controlling lateral forces on a trailing link axle.

I'm well aware of Honda's error as anyone who reads the enthusiest and industry rags.....but they deconted an entire car!
Regarding the Corolla (I hate Toyota's BTW) even though they kept pounding out the same old game, they added little bits to keep it viable....and it worked.

Rob

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the Miata......I hope you don't think I bought that for Sunday Church runs now do you???? unless they are running autoX in the parking lot......just trying to point out good handling is a priority to me as well as you.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

sciphi said:


> GM is showing flashes of breaking out of the bean-counter mentality. Look at the '14 Malibu. Folks panned the '13's so badly that they rushed through a pretty big redesign for MY 2014.
> 
> For the Watts link, there's little to no difference in handling in the real world. At the Watkins Glen meet two Watts link equipped cars had difficulty keeping up with my torsion-beam Eco. And, that fancy radio needs to be paid for somehow.



Gm redesigned the Malibu due to worse than expected sales. When your compact car (the cruze) is outselling all your more expensive cars and most people realize there is not much difference except price & worse MPG you are gonna have problems. 

This may also factor into de-contenting of the cruze, if your gonna keep selling so many might as well make as much profit as possible. $4 glove box light X 300,000+ cruze is a crap load of extra profit. Whats a Z-link cost? 

I drove a 2013 no z-link cruze and in the twisty, hilly constant s curves around here there is a definite difference in how planted the rear of the car feels. The best example of this is a 40+ MPH S curve with a 20ft drop in elevation mid S. The non-zlink cruze felt just like my old Cavalier, axle hopping sideways a few skips through the elevation drop/curve. Totally planted with the z-link car, even with the soft sidewall of the 16in tires.


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## Starks8 (Jul 20, 2011)

Great thread Robby! Chevy subtracting features from the Cruze has also ruffled my feathers to which I have made known at various times throughout this forum. With all the things you noted that were subtracted from the cruze from year to year, don't forget that Chevy also took away the cloth map pockets on the back of the seats in the Cruze! 

The 2011 LS/1LT/ECO all had two passenger seat map pockets, but not now. The LS after 2011 lost both map pockets and the 1LT and ECO only have one map pocket now which is on the back of the passenger's seat. For some reason the 2LT and the LTZ were seen good enough to be able to keep their 2 leather seat map pockets but not the lower trim level cruzes. 

I also recall that some of the Cruzes lost some of the DIC screens that were originally in the 2011 Cruzes.


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## TopazLTZ (Mar 18, 2013)

Does the 2013 or 2014 Cruze have a glovebox light? I love the stiffer ride with the z-link, definitely feels more planted.


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## Starks8 (Jul 20, 2011)

The 2013 Cruze does not have a glovebox light and since Chevy likes to take features away year after year, I would bet my left testicle that the 2014 Cruzes won't have one either. I can't wait to see what they have taken away for the 2014 Cruze.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Z link + mountain roads = FTW! 

Even the LS (2011 has Z-link - think it was removed for 2012) out-handled the Eco on one of my favorite driving roads. 

The big 3 (in the past) tend to make a new car that was "good enough" and then produce it WAY past it's viable life cycle til it just stops selling. THEN they redesigned it. Want examples? Escape. Taurus. Ranger. Old Fusion. Cavalier. Impala (my god, that took forever to kill). Silverado. Liberty was unchanged in powertrain from 2002-2012. 300. Etc etc. 

They're getting the idea that they can't do this anymore, and it seems to be working out well for everyone. The Malibu redesign shows that GM is definitely paying attention (finally) to what customers think. 

Take the Accord. It was always updated with mid cycle refreshes with a new engine and some new styling or features before a whole new redesign. A couple new features (wheels, standard options) in between. It deserves to be at the top of the heap because their engineers went to great efforts to keep the car competitive in every generation. No idea what happened with the 08-12 but it was awful. 


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Starks8 said:


> The 2013 Cruze does not have a glovebox light and since Chevy likes to take features away year after year, I would bet my left testicle that the 2014 Cruzes won't have one either. I can't wait to see what they have taken away for the 2014 Cruze.


Friggen floor mats were a paid option on the sticker on our Camry. That one blew me away. 


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## jakkaroo (Feb 12, 2011)

Good read


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## TopazLTZ (Mar 18, 2013)

Lol for 2014 they will add drum brakes to every trim, get rid of the power mirrors on the LS and possibly get rid of the sunroof shade. Lol wouldn't be surprised.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Bean counter is a person that walks up to you and says, why are you using a screw when you can make that piece of metal a sixteenth of an inch longer and bend it over. Don't you realize the millions of dollars we are spending on screws? What about servicing is the counter argument? Just make sure it makes it through the warranty period is the response.

Leaving out a glove compartment bulb or more important, a couple of push buttons for cruise control is a marketing decision, only not give you a couple of push buttons, but force to buy a bunch of extra junk you really don't want.

GM deals with dealers for means for them to make extra money, if they flared out the bottoms of the fender wells, wouldn't even need mud flaps, how much does it cost to train a technician to installed practical floor mats? Laughed when I open that fog lamp kits box, a couple of pieces of plastic about maybe ten bucks worth, piece of wire, but wondered why they tossed in a new light switch. When all they had to add was that missing contact pad and a decal for the existing light switch.

In dash GPS was a bit too much for me, wife wanted it. Was $2,000.00 extra for a one buck touch screen and two bucks worth of GPS chips, then 180 bucks extra for a 2GB flashram stick with a map update. I know these prices, been involved in this for the last 40 years.

Chrysler is no different, looking at a Grand Caravan yesterday, hey grandkids. Price spread was $16,000 from the base model to the most equipped one. Same body, drivetrain, had four wheels seven passenger seating, doors, and all that other stuff. Just $16,000.00 extra for glitter.

When Henry Ford sales dropped on the Model T, gathered all his dealers together to find out what the customers wanted. Apparent spies in the group, most said a four cylinder while Chevy came out with a six. That really hurt Model A sales, they don't ask dealers anymore what the customer wants. 

What do I want? Will be happy to pay even a hundred bucks extra for a fuel pump access plate, so I don't have to drop the tank to change that Made in China POS fuel pump. How about six bucks extra for a pack of a thousand screws, do I don't have to toss a part that has dirty contacts on the inside. Or break a bunch of plastic tabs.

With dealer installed items, already paid for special training on how to install floor mats.


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## Patman (May 7, 2011)

Blows my mind that a front license plate frame is $15. Esp since I live in a 2 plate state. The spare tire is $100 option if you buy a non Eco model that can have one. The Eco IMO with the Aluminum wheels is the car of all cars it should be included in. Having a flat with Eco wheels is detrimental to the wheels(of all the models). No one has flats anymore anyway so why waste the money for something that is infrequently use. Cost savings here not just weight savings!!!! Remember when they used to have full size spares. I think the last car I saw with one 1977 Chevy Nova. Gone like the glove box light!!!


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## Sunline Fan (Jul 29, 2012)

Excellent analysis, Robby!



Robby said:


> And its not just the Cruze.....I have my wife driving a 08 (first year) Malibu LTZ......Fabulous car!.......TONS of content......adjustable pedals (she is vertically challenged) that work well for two drivers (I'm not vertically challenged).....a nifty shade that rolls up from the package shelf to block the summer sun and help the AC be more effective, lights aplenty, a radio that is still beyond me but thats another story......where I'm headed here is many nice features......all the way down to the repeater lights on the front fenders.
> We looked at the 09, 10, 11......each had less content.....the pedals were gone for 09, also the repeaters....I don't remember specifics....but for 2010 the 3.6, which had been standard on LTZ became an option.....now THATS serious decontenting eh?


I love the '08-'12 Malibu LTZ, though I've never driven one. I too have noticed the differences you note. Up through '09 I think had a chrome trim piece below the doors too, might have been a sill plate that extended out to be seen when the doors were closed. Those disappeared as well.

The foreign Cruze also has those fender lights you mention, which I think look awesome and are a great safety feature. Of course we don't have the same strict rules here, so they can get away with cutting the cost of that feature here. The sunglasses holder is another example- GM part available overseas, but not available (even as an option or accessory) here.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> Z link + mountain roads = FTW!
> 
> Take the Accord. No idea what happened with the 08-12 but it was awful.


Two words "Bean Counters".


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## nodule (Apr 26, 2013)

Wow....really, NO glove box light for 2014?? That is a total deal breaker for me. What about trunk light? None there either?? Guess I will be buying the 2014 Kia Forte LX after all.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

nodule said:


> Wow....really, NO glove box light for 2014?? That is a total deal breaker for me. What about trunk light? None there either?? Guess I will be buying the 2014 Kia Forte LX after all.


Wat.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Great analysis and summary of what's been wrong with Detroit (and most large US companies) since the mid 70s. This is also what ultimately killed Pontiac - Mr. DeLorean left and GM put a bean counter in his place.


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

> The 2011 LS/1LT/ECO all had two passenger seat map pockets, but not now. The LS after 2011 lost both map pockets and the 1LT and ECO only have one map pocket now which is on the back of the passenger's seat.


 Interesting, I did not know that. Honda plays the same game - at least on the CR-V. No seat back map pockets on the LX and intermittent wiper is not variable, you must go up to the EX and spend more to get those features.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

My eco didn't even come with the spare tire cover. Glad I didn't have a chance to have a z link wet dream. 


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Well, try and keep on point....My aggravation is Decontenting.....that means for the new model year of the current platform, things have been removed in conjunction with a price increase.
If the 11 Cruze Eco didn't have a battery cover, two seat back map pockets, or a glove box light.....the post would not have happened.
Trouble is, it did have these features and they, and other features were removed in subsequent years.

Rob


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

The opposite appears to be happening in Australia, more features,Alloy wheels on every model, SRI and SRI-V engine upped to 1.6T 7" touch screen on more models and then price reduced by thousands of dollars. Maybe you guys should all come down here and join us. It's winter in Sydney and we are expecting 66F and there is bright sunlight right now at 9am. We also have a Cruze wagon with petrol or Turbo diesel.


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## nodule (Apr 26, 2013)

I dont get it. What the purpose of eliminating the glove box light?? A $4.00 savings? It makes no sense.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

nodule,
That is sortof my thought from time to time......there seems to be no problem jacking the price up for the new model year.
So, with that in mind, add another four or five bucks to the new price.....I'll get over it.....but stop making the vehicle cheezy by decontenting.

Rob


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

> If the 11 Cruze Eco didn't have a battery cover, two seat back map pockets, or a glove box light.....


 - Seems like I did good with my 2011 ECO 6M and at the price I paid (after incentives, rebates, discounts and GM dollars) - I can't complain.


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## EcoTech2.0 (May 29, 2013)

Color options throughout the years are interesting as well. If you want a certain blue ur limited to specific yrs, and same could be said for other colors. It would be nice if they had a huge variation of colors every year to chose from like dodge does. But at the same time they try to cut cost by only offering selected colors.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

EcoTech2.0 said:


> Color options throughout the years are interesting as well. If you want a certain blue ur limited to specific yrs, and same could be said for other colors. It would be nice if they had a huge variation of colors every year to chose from like dodge does. But at the same time they try to cut cost by only offering selected colors.


Maybe by changing colour every year they are dating the car to get people to update?


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## eagleco (May 3, 2011)

I just changed out my cabin air filter, and the glove box light came in real handy. No other light needed to do the job.

My last car, an '06 Mazda 3 had a glove box light, but no switch. The light was always on whenever the headlights (or parking lights) were on. So after a couple of years it burned out. In order to replace the bulb, the glove box had to be removed. I replaced it with an LED, so hopefully it wont burn out on the current owner, my girlfriend.

The '11 is also the only Cruze to have 8 way adjustable seats. Starting with the '12's they are 6 way. Just talking about the manual seats.

I agree this decontenting is a bad move on GM's part.


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## Starks8 (Jul 20, 2011)

eagleco said:


> The '11 is also the only Cruze to have 8 way adjustable seats. Starting with the '12's they are 6 way. Just talking about the manual seats.
> 
> I agree this decontenting is a bad move on GM's part.


Yupp you are absolutely right! I totally forgot about Chevy taking away the 8 way adjustable seats and they still haven't given Cruze owners lumbar support! I think they are also taking cruise control away as a option on the 2014 LS's.


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

I wonder is Chevy is doing this with other, more expensive models? 

The profit margin on compact and small cars is very small, something like $2K on a compact. Perhaps Chevy is struggling to maintain that margin amongst stiff competition. Many of the competition are built in right to work states and that makes them cheaper to build. Not saying it's right, but that is reality. In my mind, Chevy appears to be trying to increase the margin so they have more room to deal at the sales end. I'm sure they are under pressure to get the Cruze above the 5th best selling compact in the U.S. and increase the revenue stream for the model.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm sure that is the main objective Jim.....but to decontent and increase the price, in the hopes the potental buyer is unaware of the previous years content, is what gets me going on this subject.
I, as a buyer, am not adverse to replacing a car every year or two.....in this case, the Cruze.
Bit, when I look at the 13 (and now, the 14) and see I will have the privelidge to spend more money for less car......well, here we are.
What I seem to be unable to get across is the manufacturer is not taking buyers like me (and, don't kid yourself, there are a lot of one and two year flippers out there....where do you think a lot of low mileage trades come from?) into their sales potental anymore.

By maintaining or increasing content, even with aprice increase, buyers such as myself become dissatisfied with our current car and snag the 'latest greatest' version.

Rob


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

Right you are, but I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of car buyers don't do the in-depth look at what is available in each car. They just go to the dealership and buy one, much like they'd buy a TV set. The ones that "turn" a car ever couple of years don't look at the details like you or I might. I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I spent two years looking before I bought, but then I plan on keeping the thing for a decade or more, so I'm going to be very specific. I'm probably not the ideal buyer the car companies want.

UPDATE: Sorry, I had to add this. Talking with a young neighbor today about cars and he stated his criteria for the new car he purchased last year. 
1. American Maker
2. Red
3. 18" wheels
4. Infotainment system

OK, it's not my money, so I won't judge, but really, I find it hard to spend $25K with that list.


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## Suns_PSD (Feb 16, 2013)

I am a Kenworth Truck Salesman. I custom order many trucks for customers and I also spec and order them for stock inventory. Now in a truck, we literally can specify anything that we want. every switch and light, 60 different transmissions, dozens of tire combinations, 1/2 a dozen different brake options on each axle, etc...

Now I like my vehicles very well appointed. Furthermore, in trucking you can make a valid arguement for economic payback by specing better components (i.e. driver retention and alertness, less downtime, smaller stopping distance, less tickets, resale, etc...) but this can add substantial cost to a unit w/o much of a change in aesthetics.

I use to throw the data book at the stock trucks and they would come in hard loaded and very nice. But what I found is that 95% customers just ask for the price and a picture, that's it making it challenging to sell my hard loaded inventory. Customers don't ask which brakes it has because it stops quicker with brand "X". Or for LED lighting for less repairs and tickets. No, they just ask for prices and what the truck looks like. And you can proceed to try and sell them on features but it always comes back down to price.

So when you are marketing product, it is a very fine line between looking good and having useful options, and costing way too much.

That is why they decontent. The consumer forces their hand.


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## babymobilcruze (Aug 17, 2012)

FWIW the corolla still has a 4 speed auto, maybe changed in 14 new model I assume. You say you are an enthusiast and think the eco is best fwd stick you've driven? Having owned a 01 Integra Type R, I'd say you need to drive more performance oriented fwd cars because shifting doesn't get much better than that in a fwd. The rest tldr


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## steve333 (Oct 23, 2010)

I agree about GM's decontenting. They boasted about the Watt's Link than took it out for the 1LT unless you got the RS package. They boasted about even the base Sonic having alloy wheels then the very next year they eliminated them for the base model. No Power train updates for 4 years, no sport option, I could go on.

One correction though-the Eco Model never had the Watts Link. They removed it to save weight.
The Watt's Link makes a big difference when taking a bumpy turn-keeps the car planted on the ground without jumping all over the place.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

steve333 said:


> I agree about GM's decontenting. They boasted about the Watt's Link than took it out for the 1LT unless you got the RS package. They boasted about even the base Sonic having alloy wheels then the very next year they eliminated them for the base model. No Power train updates for 4 years, no sport option, I could go on.
> 
> One correction though-the Eco Model never had the Watts Link. They removed it to save weight.
> The Watt's Link makes a big difference when taking a bumpy turn-keeps the car planted on the ground without jumping all over the place.


Ahem....eco auto's had the watts link.....and I have a eco auto with a watts link.

Rob


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

babymobilcruze said:


> FWIW the corolla still has a 4 speed auto, maybe changed in 14 new model I assume. You say you are an enthusiast and think the eco is best fwd stick you've driven? Having owned a 01 Integra Type R, I'd say you need to drive more performance oriented fwd cars because shifting doesn't get much better than that in a fwd. The rest tldr


Incorrect,
I said the eco has one of the nicest shifting FWD manuals I've operated.

Now....to go a bit further, since you disagree with my self proclaimed 'enthusiest' definition.
I like cars.....I buy cars....I race cars.....I build cars.
If you read the post fully, you'd note the Cruze is a DD.....I have a B4C Camaro (you wouldn't know what that is without research) 6m....a 95 and 96 Impala SS..both modified....a SRT8 Magnum...just tuned....a Miata, often used for auto cross.

ARE WE DONE YET.......BTW, I have driven many Honda's.....my son owns a tuner shop in Elk Grove Il.....look up One 6 Motorsports and get back to me.

Rob


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## babymobilcruze (Aug 17, 2012)

Robby said:


> Incorrect,
> I said the eco has one of the nicest shifting FWD manuals I've operated.
> 
> Now....to go a bit further, since you disagree with my self proclaimed 'enthusiest' definition.
> ...


I wasn't questioning youre an enthusiast, but other than final gear ratio I'm honestly not sure what's different between the eco 6 speed and my lt 6 speed and I hate my transmission. I need to change the fluid to see if that helps but grinds 2nd EVERY time in high rpms, even with the clutch mashed through the floor. When downshifting at lights I get a grind going into 1st occasionallyeven at low speeds/rpms I just don't find it to be very enjoyable. But I don't have much econobox vehicles to compare it too, my fwd cars have been "performance oriented" hey at least the shift knob doesn't pop off nsrt-4 drivers know what I'm talking about. I get the gist of your post and I'm no Chevy homer if it wasn't for my grandpas GMS discount I probably wouldn't of bought as many GM products as I've owned. Lots of your complaints can be said about nearly every manufacturer ie my Corolla example of antiquated 4 speed auto, its like they say well they sell themselves why update it and make it better, it'll be a top segment seller regardless. **** I don't remember my g35 coupe having a underhood light or one in glove box, and the plastic piece that holds seatbelt to the seat was worthless and never held in in place for $.02 they probably could of made a better piece of plastic. The 2012 civic were such garbage and a step back they redid it after 1 year. Btw nice stable of cars I miss having a fun car, but since my divorce having multiple cars ie fun car and dd isn't feasible until the economy keeps trending the right way. I got the cruze for mpg and actually liked the way they looked, after dding modded tbss for a year or so then a modded g35 for a year and a half before I bought my Cruze in August of 2012 I just needed somethings to get from a to b with great mpgs. Now I'm getting the boring car 1 year itch where I'm considering do I buy something fun or throw money at a car that will never be fast and have a little fun. One thing I don't understand about the Cruze is why GM didn't put a manual in the ltz model makes no sense, I know us that like to shift make up a small portion of the buying public, but I wonder how many people purchased something else that were considering a Cruze for that very reason. It goes beyond the Cruze sell, it's all about building brand loyalty and changing a big portion of the buying publics perceptions of GM especially those my age ~30 and under. Congrats to your son the speed business is a hard one, I've had a lot of friends fail and a few that have succeeded. TLDR;


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

From what I've read here, the ECO MT is a much smoother transmission than the one in the LT MT.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

My ECO 6MT shifts fine it may be the Better than the 2. I may swap fluid down the line at some point but factory is decent. 

As for why they didn't stick the LTZ is same reason Dodge kinda stopped. People look at it as luxury model and then auto is also a luxury. Manual trans is pretty much dead and everyone is looking for iRobot park my car for me B.S. 


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## babymobilcruze (Aug 17, 2012)

obermd said:


> From what I've read here, the ECO MT is a much smoother transmission than the one in the LT MT.


Hmm ill have to do some searching I thought final gear ratio was only difference speaking of bean counters I can't imagine they'd want to spend a few pennies for any other changes. Not to thread jack too bad, but I thought about switching tranny fluid to synchromesh, isn't GMs just rebranded more expensive Pennzoil? What brand are guys having good luck with? One last thing then ill let thread get back on topic, doesn't the Sonic RS come with a higher final gear for a little more umph, has anyone thought or tried to swap it into a Cruze?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

obermd said:


> From what I've read here, the ECO MT is a much smoother transmission than the one in the LT MT.


Uhhhh...nope.

The final drive as well as some of the gear ratios are different, but I think the LT is very evenly spaced for great power in any gear you're in. 2-3 is annoying sometimes (a bit more of a gap than 1-2), but there are gaps like that in the Eco as well.

It's a friggen blast running it up through the gears on a back road.

The Syncromesh makes a HUGE difference. No grinding on a hard shift...ever, and much smoother transition in between gears. Still a good "thunk" from the transmission though with the window down.


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## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

jblackburn said:


> Uhhhh...nope.
> 
> The final drive as well as some of the gear ratios are different, but I think the LT is very evenly spaced for great power in any gear you're in.
> 
> ...


I don't think we will ever get rid of that thunk. I don't have and hard shifts anymore but I think in 10,000 miles I will change ti amsoil and do a comparison on royal purple and amsoil.

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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

H3LLON3ARTH said:


> I don't think we will ever get rid of that thunk. I don't have and hard shifts anymore but I think in 10,000 miles I will change ti amsoil and do a comparison on royal purple and amsoil.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


Nah, just the nature of the car. It's loud, but shifts well.


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## steve333 (Oct 23, 2010)

Robby said:


> Ahem....eco auto's had the watts link.....and I have a eco auto with a watts link.
> 
> Rob


That's strange. When the Eco came out I could have sworn they removed the watts link to save weight


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## 2013Cruze (Aug 4, 2012)

steve333 said:


> That's strange. When the Eco came out I could have sworn they removed the watts link to save weight


I think GM removed it on just the mt not on the auto trans.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

So if one found a totaled out font end car with said suspension years down the line, would it be a worth wild swap?


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## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

Merc6 said:


> So if one found a totaled out font end car with said suspension years down the line, would it be a worth wild swap?
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


I was planning on this mod next year some time around when I get my coilovers probably August nexr year.

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## Starks8 (Jul 20, 2011)

Oh, this just came to my mind!

Didn't Chevy also remove that lid/cover to the dash storage area on the Cruze LS's?! The lid/cover for the dash storage was there on the 2011 LS's but it hasn't been there since!!


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Merc6 said:


> So if one found a totaled out font end car with said suspension years down the line, would it be a worth wild swap?
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


If you have roads with potholes or twisty corners with elevation changes in the middle, it's great at keeping the rear of your car in check. There's a series of switchbacks with bumps in the middle near the dealer where I first drove the Cruzes, and the rear end of the Eco swung out and stability control kicked in; the LS just hugged the corner at a higher speed and did fine. 

Scared the crap out of the salesman with the Eco, so he just let me drive the LS on my own =D


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> If you have roads with potholes or twisty corners with elevation changes in the middle, it's great at keeping the rear of your car in check. There's a series of switchbacks with bumps in the middle near the dealer where I first drove the Cruzes, and the rear end of the Eco swung out and stability control kicked in; the LS just hugged the corner at a higher speed and did fine.
> 
> Scared the crap out of the salesman with the Eco, so he just let me drive the LS on my own =D
> 
> ...


Scaring the crap out of car salesmen is the best part of buying a car.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Good read, Robby, and some GREAT points! Another omission from the '11 MY was the tinted strip at the top of the windshield... my buddie's '11 Eco has this and my '12 does not. I'm always driving around with the visor flipped forward to block the sun.



Suns_PSD said:


> I use to throw the data book at the stock trucks and they would come in hard loaded and very nice. But what I found is that 95% customers just ask for the price and a picture, that's it making it challenging to sell my hard loaded inventory. Customers don't ask which brakes it has because it stops quicker with brand "X". Or for LED lighting for less repairs and tickets. No, they just ask for prices and what the truck looks like. And you can proceed to try and sell them on features but it always comes back down to price.
> 
> So when you are marketing product, it is a very fine line between looking good and having useful options, and costing way too much.
> 
> That is why they decontent. The consumer forces their hand.


The main argument here is they are charging more for a car with less content. Most people will pay more for more content as long as they see value in it, but few will pay more for less.

As Robby pointed out, if you wander onto the lot and look at the three year newer version of your car and it has spiffy new LED tail lights, a new front facia and newer, bigger wheels, well all of a sudden your car looks out of date and the new one looks mighty attractive.

BMW did a great job of this with the E90 3-Series. It was launched in '06, and in '09 it had a major facelift. Park the same model '08 beside an '09 and it's a HUGE improvement. Every time I see an '06-'08 I can't help but think BMW styled the '09-'11 version first, then made a slightly frumpy version to sell first to those who had to have the car before releasing the really good looking one they originally designed. Our base model '11 323i looks better than the '08 328i.

This "Mid Cycle Enhancement" is a popular and effective strategy. BMW planned to sell that car for six model years, so they refreshed it after three... just in time for those with expiring three year leases on the '06s. Smart. By that time they had made their money back on all the development and tooling, so why not throw a little cash at the car and make it nicer, even though it's the same basic car, and keep their existing customer's butts in a Bimmer?

If GM was only planning to sell the Cruze for four model years, well, a MCE becomes a little harder to justify. BUT, decontenting the car along the way is a sure bet that no one with an '11 will ever trade it in for a '13-'14. I keep my cars a long time so this doesn't apply to me, but I know lots of people who are into a new car every 3-4 years. Heck, my Dad just bought a new car after owning his "old" one for four years, and he told me that was the longest he'd owned a car in a long time. He's retired and on a fixed income, but he still likes that new car smell.


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## Suns_PSD (Feb 16, 2013)

Everything goes up in cost every year.The parts to build the cars, the factory workers salaries, property taxes on the building, the trucks and fuel used to transport subsystems to the dealer and then ship completed cars, etc... The car will cost more for the manufacturer to hold the exact same % margin.

Content reduction is a way to try and manage these inevitable cost increases.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

jblackburn said:


> If you have roads with potholes or twisty corners with elevation changes in the middle, it's great at keeping the rear of your car in check. There's a series of switchbacks with bumps in the middle near the dealer where I first drove the Cruzes, and the rear end of the Eco swung out and stability control kicked in; the LS just hugged the corner at a higher speed and did fine.
> 
> Scared the crap out of the salesman with the Eco, so he just let me drive the LS on my own =D
> 
> ...


I live in Cleveland and occasionally drive through East Cleveland. Bumpy is an understatement. 


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> Good read, Robby, and some GREAT points! Another omission from the '11 MY was the tinted strip at the top of the windshield... my buddie's '11 Eco has this and my '12 does not. I'm always driving around with the visor flipped forward to block the sun.


Yep was pissed the next day after I got my car. At least Ford took tint and replaced it with
the dot matrix. 



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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Really? My 12 has a tinted top strip on the windshield.


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## indigo (Feb 25, 2011)

Surprised no one else mentioned this: But didn't they drop the rear seat armrest after 2011? I know it was part of the Eco's weight savings, but I think it extended across the line in 2012?


I am also quite pissed they dropped the manual 8way driver seat, I am very glad to have that and I feel it's a large part of the reason why I find it to be such a comfortable, even premium feeling car. I have a 2011 1LT. 


As far as some of the other features, I don't know if I necessarily blame GM, more the logic behind where the Cruze actually falls in the Chevy lineup and its competitors. Is it an economy car that just happens to have some premium features standard? A premium platform with some economy features? Or something else? It's not the Verano, but that didn't exist in 2011, then there's the Malibu, which clashes badly with a jazzed-up Cruze. That's a difficult position to be in, trying to keep models separate, and still make the most from each one. 


Personally, I think if they dropped the Malibu, it would solve a lot of problems. The Sonic sedan would step-up and fill the role of the Cruze LS, it's effectively the same size anyway. The 1LT and up would then start eating into Malibu territory, engineer in some more rear legroom a little more trunk space, and offer a more powerful engine, something like 170hp (2.0NA?, 1.6T, 1.8T), perhaps LTZ only and you'd be good to go, keep the prices as they are now +/-. Then they have plenty of room to play with the Ecos, the Diesel as a niche LTZ+, some sort of mild-hybrid if they so choose. There's likely even enough room for some mild performance model. And then the Impala sits on its own very nicely, much bigger car, different platform, way more power available, higher price. 


In my opinion the genius of the Cruze was that it was a new size, compact, so it was economical, but large and solid enough to feel like a much more substantial car. The premium touches and the overall build quality in and out contributed majorly to that. I downsized from an 08 Aura XE with the 2.4L and have been very happy with the Cruze, it filled the role very nicely, I wanted to downsize for economy, but didn't want to lose the substantial feel of the other car. The bonus was the Cruze is a **** of a lot more fun to drive. I think a lot of people fall into this category.


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

> At least Ford took tint and replaced it with
> the dot matrix.


 I wonder how much was saved by not tinting the top edge of the windshield? I have a 2011 ECO - I discovered for the first time this past Saturday, my driver side sun visor has two little arrows on it <>, and it can slide back and forth to adjust when using for the side window. The passenger side does not have that adjustment.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Suns_PSD said:


> Content reduction is a way to try and manage these inevitable cost increases.


Parts costs actually go down year to year. I worked for a supplier up until 2007 and the practice at the time was every supplier forced into piece price reductions every year. You were expected to look for efficiencies all the time because you knew the price would be dropping again next year. There were exceptions, for sure, but that's GM's intent and they're not the only company doing this. They may have altered their practices since then, but I doubt it.

Year-to-year price increases do make sense for many of the reasons you stated, but only if they're not pulling content out of the cars. Eliminating the Z-Link from the rear suspension saved them a lot more than adding the fancy touch screen radio cost them.



jblackburn said:


> Really? My 12 has a tinted top strip on the windshield.


Mine was a very late '12 build just before the cut-off, so maybe they pulled it mid-year?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

> Surprised no one else mentioned this: But didn't they drop the rear seat armrest after 2011? I know it was part of the Eco's weight savings, but I think it extended across the line in 2012?


There on 2012 1LT and 2013 2LT. Think they just dropped it for the Eco.



> Personally, I think if they dropped the Malibu, it would solve a lot of problems. The Sonic sedan would step-up and fill the role of the Cruze LS, it's effectively the same size anyway. The 1LT and up would then start eating into Malibu territory, engineer in some more rear legroom a little more trunk space, and offer a more powerful engine, something like 170hp (2.0NA?, 1.6T, 1.8T), perhaps LTZ only and you'd be good to go, keep the prices as they are now +/-. Then they have plenty of room to play with the Ecos, the Diesel as a niche LTZ+, some sort of mild-hybrid if they so choose. There's likely even enough room for some mild performance model. And then the Impala sits on its own very nicely, much bigger car, different platform, way more power available, higher price.


Not going to happen unless the Cruze becomes a mid-size, which I doubt - it's doing pretty well in the compact car class and was largely a game-changer for the rest of the segment...hopefully it will stay that way for the 2015 refresh.

Meanwhile, the midsize car segment is THE most hotly-contended segment in America. The previous Malibu actually wasn't a bad contender, aside from the cheap interior (but that was on par with Accord/Camry from 2008-2011).

Impala's way too expensive to compete in the most-bought $23-25K range for midsize cars (28-30K for the premium models with bigger engines). If they dumb down the content of the Impala, it'll lose its appeal too.

IMO they should just axe the Sonic sedan and keep the hatchback for young drivers.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

I will hazard a guess the rear armrest was dropped from the eco 6m, 2012.
My eco 6a, 2012, has the rear armrest/cupholder (like someone will ever be back there....but it looks cute folded down)

Rob


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

> rear armrest was dropped from the eco 6m, 2012.
> My eco 6a, 2012, has the rear armrest/cupholder


 My 2011 ECO 6M did not come with the rear arm rest - supposed to be less weight=better mileage.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

My ECO MT doesn't have a rear armrest. Penguin LS, which is a 2012 LS MT, does have the rear armrest.


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## Chevy Customer Care (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi indigo, 

The rear armrest is still standard across all models, except for the ECO manual. We did however, drop a rear center headrest after the 2011 model.

Jackie,
Chevrolet Customer Care


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## Starks8 (Jul 20, 2011)

Chevy Customer Service said:


> Hi indigo,
> 
> We did however, drop a rear center headrest after the 2011 model.
> 
> ...


And that's another one. But most people didn't like the center headrest anyway since it made rear visibility bad.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Dropping the rear center headrest was a good idea. The rear headrests really stick up and block the rear view mirror view.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Robby said:


> My eco 6a, 2012, has the rear armrest/cupholder (like someone will ever be back there....


Jeez Rob, how old are you?


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> Jeez Rob, how old are you?



63......AND COUNTING.

Pains me to admit that,

Rob


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