# VW Dieselgate - one year later



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I'd like to see the real world tailpipe testing for all internal combustion engines - diesel and gasoline. Interesting that European diesels have all been implicated in not meeting emissions standards and being up to 30% lower on real world fuel efficiency than advertised.


----------



## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

obermd said:


> Interesting that European diesels have all been implicated in not meeting emissions standards


I tried to follow links to see the details of that study but failed to find it. I have a suspicion that someone is taking known weaknesses in the law and putting a spin on that.


----------



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Original article from greencarreports... Which generally would like the end of ICE (internal combustion engine). Technology improves and goes down in cost. Expensive emissions today are less so in the future. The 20% energy density of diesel remains a key advantage, as well as longevity and heavy torque. Diesel will recover. New offerings from Nissan, GM, Chrysler, Jaguar, Land Rover, Mercedes, BMW will continue. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

MRO1791 said:


> Original article from greencarreports... Which generally would like the end of ICE (internal combustion engine). Technology improves and goes down in cost. Expensive emissions today are less so in the future. The 20% energy density of diesel remains a key advantage, as well as longevity and heavy torque. Diesel will recover. New offerings from Nissan, GM, Chrysler, Jaguar, Land Rover, Mercedes, BMW will continue.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Diesels became popular in Europe back in the 70s when Europe put harsh (for non-Catalytic converter emissions) limits on CO and CO2. Europe didn't start regulating NOx emissions until the mid 90s. It's very easy to build a diesel engine that puts out very little COx but very difficult to control NOx. The US took a different route clamping down on COx and NOx at the same time, which is what led to the Catalytic Converter to convert hydrocarbon emissions into CO2 and H2O. CO2 emissions are actually relatively easy to control in a gasoline engine by running at higher temperatures and closer to a pure Atkinson cycle, so the extra CO2 generated by Catalytic Converters was considered acceptable. Gasoline engines will put out nearly zero NOx emissions when burning properly.

If you peruse this forum you'll see that there have been quite a few emissions related issues with the CTD. These issues are predominately NOx sensors. These sensors are critical to ensure the CTD uses the DEF system properly - too much DEF wastes money, too little and you emit too much NOx. I really hope GM has solved this issue as I think there are a lot of benefits of the diesel drive train.


----------



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Keep in mind the pickup diesel market has been competitive and growing, despite the emissions issues. As with all new technology, some initial issues are inevitable. The trucks with DEF / SCR NOx reduction are proving reliable and with few issues. With now 2 CTDs, over 60 k combined, yes a few warranty emissions replacement DPF in first week on first car, later 1 NOx, 1 O2, and oddly the ECU, I'm willing to bet some interrelation between some of these, but no apparent issues on the other car with more miles ( by service history ). I've had prior gasoline powered vehicles with similar from new issues, even an ECU, that pickup ended as a lemon. One of the challenges with the diesel emissions is with frequent, but short duration drives, for that a hybrid or gas car would be less trouble. The emissions work best when allowed to get up to temperature and under load. They could add more driver information and make this less and issue, but sadly the market is such where few drivers what such data and would ignore it or be discouraged from a purchase. Most drivers don't even want to know anything about how the car works. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I think there's a good shot that the new Cruze and Equinox diesels will do well. And I disagree with the article's statement that the 1st gen Cruze diesel "sold poorly". They only planned to sell 10,000 and sold nearly double that. With very little advertising. From what I heard, GM considered it a success. Why else would they be be bringing more diesels?


----------



## BlueTopaz (Aug 25, 2012)

Not to derail this thread but it is sad that VW got nailed like they did and yet there are vehicles out "rolling coal" and nothing is done about it? This is on brand new trucks. Around here I know of several individuals that purchased new diesel trucks and deleted the emissions right away.


----------



## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

That's totally different than being a manufacturer and lying to a country to increase your profit while damaging other manufacturer's market share.


----------



## chevrasaki (May 1, 2015)

BlueTopaz said:


> Not to derail this thread but it is sad that VW got nailed like they did and yet there are vehicles out "rolling coal" and nothing is done about it? This is on brand new trucks. Around here I know of several individuals that purchased new diesel trucks and deleted the emissions right away.


As mentioned above, there's a pretty huge difference between some ******* owners intentionally and illegally messing with their own trucks' emission control systems while the majority of the owners of new diesel trucks leave them alone. While a company illegally programs a cheat so they don't have to install those emission control systems at all on any of the vehicles sold.

I agree that maybe they should be ticketed for messing with their trucks like they would for putting 0% tint all the way around.


----------



## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

ChevyGuy said:


> I tried to follow links to see the details of that study but failed to find it. I have a suspicion that someone is taking known weaknesses in the law and putting a spin on that.


Don't worry about. Everything is just dry labbed or made by people who really don't know what they are doing. It's pretty common nowadays with sites whose sole purpose is to get clicks and support their agenda.


----------



## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Controlling cylinder temps, controls NOx.


----------



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

diesel said:


> I think there's a good shot that the new Cruze and Equinox diesels will do well. And I disagree with the article's statement that the 1st gen Cruze diesel "sold poorly". They only planned to sell 10,000 and sold nearly double that. With very little advertising. From what I heard, GM considered it a success. Why else would they be be bringing more diesels?


Great point, not only was advisement nearly non existent, the car is barely noticeable from a gasser Cruze. The tiny "2.0 TD" badge the could be an "ECO" badge from more than 10 feet away is all there is. Add to that, they were competing with VW until the end of 2015, VW was lower priced, offered a manual transmission to boot. Despite that they still sold cars. Perhaps I'm biased now that I have 2 CTDs!!

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## chevrasaki (May 1, 2015)

MRO1791 said:


> Great point, not only was advisement nearly non existent, the car is barely noticeable from a gasser Cruze. The tiny "2.0 TD" badge the could be an "ECO" badge from more than 10 feet away is all there is. Add to that, they were competing with VW until the end of 2015, VW was lower priced, offered a manual transmission to boot. Despite that they still sold cars. Perhaps I'm biased now that I have 2 CTDs!!
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


It was only higher priced because Chevy only sold the diesel in one trim level, fully loaded. If they offered a base model with as you mentioned, a manual transmission I'm sure it would have sold a lot more even with non-existent advertisement, I would have bought one for sure.


----------



## CruzeDan (May 17, 2015)

I am a diesel convert, and love diesels, but it will be a very tough fight for Chevrolet to gain traction with the small passenger diesels, especially if gas prices stay as low as they are, on top of all the issues VW brought with the scandal. The diesel option costs outweigh the benefit at this time, and while I prefer driving my diesel Cruze over a gas model, I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't cost me as much as an LS gas model. There is no way I would have paid the 28k MSRP. The diesel Colorado isn't selling as well as this article makes it seem, at least from my first hand knowledge in my area they are sitting on the lots, and remember it has a 5k premium over the gas models. The gas 2nd gen Cruze also gets MPG numbers in the range of the EPA rated first gen diesel numbers. I hope Chevrolet can pull it off, but hybrids and electrics are the future, and diesel will get left behind long before gassers do.


----------



## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

CruzeDan said:


> but hybrids and electrics are the future, and diesel will get left behind long before gassers do.


While electric certainly has the public's attention, I think the contest is far from settled. I still think there's a good chance for biofuels to come along. Especially when you stop to consider 18-wheelers and commercial airline flight. Not to mention the DoD making a major push for "drop in replacement" fuels to power current weapons. Electric vehicles at this time are far too dependent on some kind of technical and cost breakthrough to make it practical for industrial movers. Their place in the future is not guaranteed.

Depending on the details, diesel might be the technology that comes out on top. So it really wouldn't be a bad idea for GM to run a small diesel program to learn from. So if the future does go that way, they can avoid starting from scratch.


----------



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

CruzeDan said:


> I am a diesel convert, and love diesels, but it will be a very tough fight for Chevrolet to gain traction with the small passenger diesels, especially if gas prices stay as low as they are, on top of all the issues VW brought with the scandal. The diesel option costs outweigh the benefit at this time, and while I prefer driving my diesel Cruze over a gas model, I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't cost me as much as an LS gas model. There is no way I would have paid the 28k MSRP. The diesel Colorado isn't selling as well as this article makes it seem, at least from my first hand knowledge in my area they are sitting on the lots, and remember it has a 5k premium over the gas models. The gas 2nd gen Cruze also gets MPG numbers in the range of the EPA rated first gen diesel numbers. I hope Chevrolet can pull it off, but hybrids and electrics are the future, and diesel will get left behind long before gassers do.


Diesel retains a 20% energy density advantage over gasoline, even more over ethanol and other fuels, it's stable and has long shelf life and has a distribution network established. Hybrid makes sense in urban stop and go type traffic, mostly highway and it is not worth the cost. Pure electric has range and charging time limitations, and it's not zero emissions when 70% of electrical power comes from coal. Few people are going to be able to afford separate cars, electric for city, gas diesel for long drives. This is where hybrids gained some traction, they are still even more expensive than diesel. CAFE standards are driving OEMs to go outside the box, but small cars are not very profitable, to increase MPG and have a larger vehicle, Diesel makes sense.. which is where some OEMs, GM included are going. With many emissions technology hurdles worked out with Duramax truck experience behind them.. They may pull it off. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Sales of the new Colorado appear to be strong: http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...tors-moves-to-make-more-chevy-colorado-p.aspx

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## 2014Oilburner (Feb 1, 2015)

diesel said:


> I think there's a good shot that the new Cruze and Equinox diesels will do well. And I disagree with the article's statement that the 1st gen Cruze diesel "sold poorly". They only planned to sell 10,000 and sold nearly double that. With very little advertising. From what I heard, GM considered it a success. Why else would they be be bringing more diesels?


I thought I read that GM was expecting the Cruze Diesel to be 10% of all of the Cruze sales...where did you read that GM was expecting to sell only 10K Cruze diesels?

The thing I don't understand is why VW is going to drop out of the diesel market all together now...why wouldn't VW just put the emission equipment on it's diesel cars like GM did and and keep selling diesels....seems like they owned the market, so why just let it go when it would be so easy just to put the emission equipment in the cars.


----------



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

2014Oilburner said:


> I thought I read that GM was expecting the Cruze Diesel to be 10% of all of the Cruze sales...where did you read that GM was expecting to sell only 10K Cruze diesels?
> 
> The thing I don't understand is why VW is going to drop out of the diesel market all together now...why wouldn't VW just put the emission equipment on it's diesel cars like GM did and and keep selling diesels....seems like they owned the market, so why just let it go when it would be so easy just to put the emission equipment in the cars.


There is an answer: Politics. VW did something so bad, they needed to appease the political powers that be, who HATE Internal Combustion Engine. They had to make a move that would appease the forces lining up to go for the jugular. Been following this closely, and I think it boils down to the political forces in play. GM seems ready to pick up the market VW is leaving. Time will tell how this works out for them. I think they needed to stop the immediate bleeding, but when the dust settles they may well reengage with a complaint TDI at some future date. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

MRO1791 said:


> There is an answer: Politics. VW did something so bad, they needed to appease the political powers that be, who HATE Internal Combustion Engine. They had to make a move that would appease the forces lining up to go for the jugular. Been following this closely, and I think it boils down to the political forces in play. GM seems ready to pick up the market VW is leaving. Time will tell how this works out for them. I think they needed to stop the immediate bleeding, but when the dust settles they may well reengage with a complaint TDI at some future date.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


I might add that VW burned some regulatory bridges. Pretty sure EPA and CARB weren't going to certify any new VW diesels (no matter how clean they might be) at the same time that VW was being actively investigated (and possibly sued).

I'm not a VW fan, but I really do hope they can patch things up and bring diesels back in a couple years. VW worked hard for decades to sell diesels in this country, which is no easy thing. If it hadn't been for their persistence and hard work, there wouldn't have developed the TDI fan base. And without that base to go after, the Cruze diesel wouldn't have had much reason to exist in a country where gas is cheap.


----------



## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

2014Oilburner said:


> The thing I don't understand is why VW is going to drop out of the diesel market all together now...why wouldn't VW just put the emission equipment on it's diesel cars like GM did and and keep selling diesels....seems like they owned the market, so why just let it go when it would be so easy just to put the emission equipment in the cars.


Sometimes it's the best way to put things behind you. If they continued to sell diesels, no matter what they did, some would still hold the past against them. 

It's also possible they've looked in their crystal ball and they don't like the odds for the future of diesel. Why spend a ton of money for R&D on something that may be on the way out?

Regardless of anything they say now, if in the future diesel is where it's at, there's nothing preventing them from coming back. And that break will allow them to leave dieselgate behind.

If you want an example, at one time Sears did general auto repairs. Then they offered their employees a "cut" of any jobs they sold. On one hand, it sounds good to encourage a mechanic to point out other things that need service. But what it did was create a reward system for abuse. They guys who made the most money were the ones selling unneeded services. The consumer agencies investigated and busted them. Right after that, Sears went "back to their core business" of tires, shocks and batteries. But after many years, I think they have quietly re-entered general auto repair. Think of it as "old school" redemption tour.


----------



## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

2014Oilburner said:


> I thought I read that GM was expecting the Cruze Diesel to be 10% of all of the Cruze sales...where did you read that GM was expecting to sell only 10K Cruze diesels?


There was some information posted in this forum a couple years ago that talked about GM ordering only 10,000 engines for these cars as they expected that to be the full production run. I don't remember the specifics or the source, but the number stuck in my brain.


----------



## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

diesel said:


> There was some information posted in this forum a couple years ago that talked about GM ordering only 10,000 engines for these cars as they expected that to be the full production run. I don't remember the specifics or the source, but the number stuck in my brain.


The engine plant in Kaiserslautern was said to be capable of producing up to 20,000 LUZ engines a year. 

Total combined CTD production over the two model years has been calculated at 17-18,000 cars.


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I doubt VW will be returning to diesels in either the US or Europe. The head of Audi's R&D has now been implicated in at a minimum, knowing that the 3 liter engines for Audi, VW, and Porsche all had this cheating software installed. Documentation has come to light that VW's chief engineers for the TDI engine knew of and approved the cheating software because VW marketing was forcing them to solve the emissions problem for far less than they could implement fully EPA compliant emissions for the engine.

In addition to the above, Renault has stated that the new emissions standards, which include strapping the University of West Virginia derived test equipment to the car and driving it would result in lower priced diesels simply disappearing from manufacturer lines as not economical.

Diesels will still be around in higher end cars and trucks, but not in lower priced cars and trucks.


----------



## mgulfcoastguy (Jun 20, 2016)

They might wait to see how Chevrolet does with their new diesel Equinox and if it is successful try to match it with a diesel Tiguan.


----------



## 2014Oilburner (Feb 1, 2015)

obermd said:


> I doubt VW will be returning to diesels in either the US or Europe. The head of Audi's R&D has now been implicated in at a minimum, knowing that the 3 liter engines for Audi, VW, and Porsche all had this cheating software installed. Documentation has come to light that VW's chief engineers for the TDI engine knew of and approved the cheating software because VW marketing was forcing them to solve the emissions problem for far less than they could implement fully EPA compliant emissions for the engine.
> 
> In addition to the above, Renault has stated that the new emissions standards, which include strapping the University of West Virginia derived test equipment to the car and driving it would result in lower priced diesels simply disappearing from manufacturer lines as not economical.
> 
> Diesels will still be around in higher end cars and trucks, but not in lower priced cars and trucks.


I thought I read that it would had cost VW 400 dollars per car to install the emission equipment that GM installed in the Cruze diesel to meet the standards...if that's the case I wonder why diesels wouldn't still be used in lower price cars like our CTD and the VW Jetta and such...sure I know that the diesel cars cost more than the gas models but still VW sold a lot of diesels at the price point they were selling the diesels at...just seems like it would be so easy for VW to just install the emission equipment on the new models and get back to selling diesels like they did before with hardly any price increase for the consumer's...VW dealing with the old cheating diesel models would still be the same regardless of what new model they are selling.


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

2014Oilburner said:


> I thought I read that it would had cost VW 400 dollars per car to install the emission equipment that GM installed in the Cruze diesel to meet the standards...if that's the case I wonder why diesels wouldn't still be used in lower price cars like our CTD and the VW Jetta and such...sure I know that the diesel cars cost more than the gas models but still VW sold a lot of diesels at the price point they were selling the diesels at...just seems like it would be so easy for VW to just install the emission equipment on the new models and get back to selling diesels like they did before with hardly any price increase for the consumer's...VW dealing with the old cheating diesel models would still be the same regardless of what new model they are selling.


That's the minimum cost to fix a TDI that has the DEF system. Only the last model year or two has DEF systems. The cost to repair the TDIs without DEF systems is a 5 to 10 thousand per car and VW has already stated that some of the older models can't even be brought into compliance - they simply don't have the computer systems needed to manage a DEF system.


----------



## 2014Oilburner (Feb 1, 2015)

obermd said:


> That's the minimum cost to fix a TDI that has the DEF system. Only the last model year or two has DEF systems. The cost to repair the TDIs without DEF systems is a 5 to 10 thousand per car and VW has already stated that some of the older models can't even be brought into compliance - they simply don't have the computer systems needed to manage a DEF system.


Yea, I understand that..but..I was talking about new 2017 models...if it only cost 400 dollars or so to equipped a new diesel from the factory why not keep selling diesels..I don't know if I buy that VW burned the bridges with the EPA and such to sell diesels...if a 2017 diesel passes the standards..like the Cruze diesel does...than the EPA would have to approve the new 2017 model for sale..or am I missing something in my thinking


----------



## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

Everybody seems to worry about the running cost in the diesel V petrol debate, try looking it another way. I bought the diesel because it out performed the other Cruze models at the time, the better fuel economy was a bonus. I had a 3.8V6 Commodore and wanted similar performance in my new car. The petrol Cruze available didn't even come close, the diesel was very close. I am not talking about 0-100kph, but put 4 adults and holiday luggage in it and have an effortless drive. The CTD does this beautifully and gives great economy at the same time, I love it. My daughter has a 1.6T Cruze hatchback, great little car, but I still prefer the diesel, less HP, but heaps more torque than the 1.6T.


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

2014Oilburner said:


> Yea, I understand that..but..I was talking about new 2017 models...if it only cost 400 dollars or so to equipped a new diesel from the factory why not keep selling diesels..I don't know if I buy that VW burned the bridges with the EPA and such to sell diesels...if a 2017 diesel passes the standards..like the Cruze diesel does...than the EPA would have to approve the new 2017 model for sale..or am I missing something in my thinking


I suspect VW has decided to not sell diesels in the US anymore. They're even dropping their diesel lines in Europe because the cost of the emissions systems will force them to raise their prices beyond where they believe their target market is willing to pay.


----------



## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

It is pretty sad that VW management thought that cheating was the way to higher margins and profit. The emission standards are a bit insane but that is the direction we and world are going. VW actions may have tainted perception of diesels for awhile if not a long time. VW owned the US diesel car market for most part, Mercedes and BMW had some but only in stuff that cost two times what VW had, VW had the low to mid diesel car market all to themselves in USA and screwed it up for them and perhaps others. I use to look and them and just never pulled the trigger, I won't ever in my lifetime look at them again.


----------



## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

obermd said:


> I suspect VW has decided to not sell diesels in the US anymore. They're even dropping their diesel lines in Europe because the cost of the emissions systems will force them to raise their prices beyond where they believe their target market is willing to pay.


And also the world-wide deception likely put most prospective buyer right off from buying a VW diesel ever again.


----------



## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

IndyDiesel said:


> I use to look and them and just never pulled the trigger, I won't ever in my lifetime look at them again.


I looked at several 4 cylinder TDI's starting back in 2008 and just was never moved to buy one. When I drove my Cruze, it was immediate: I must buy this car.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> i suspect vw has decided to not sell diesels in the us anymore. They're even dropping their diesel lines in europe because the cost of the emissions systems will force them to raise their prices beyond where they believe their target market is willing to pay.


they also said they will be switching diesel assets to developing hybrid tech.



> the emission standards are a bit insane but that is the direction we and world are going. Vw actions may have tainted perception of diesels for awhile if not a long time.


it defiantly hit the diesel market but i don't think like old gm did. If gm spins it and makes vw look like diesel villeins and offer a "truly american made" clean diesel and the -pr does the right job gm can easily pick up more customer shares then vw even had since they prove clean diesel is a reality... Play the hero in diesel and make vw eat the fact that they a part of the industry cheated.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Gm has the chance to be the rebound guy to pick up the girl that VW beat up and left a black eye on. we can either be the saving grace that punches VW in the face and play the hero... winning over the crying girl and the benefits or simply play the bystander wishing we would have taken action and stepped in all the while saying quietly.... i could fill the part and be so much better then VW


----------



## heisut (Sep 14, 2016)

pandrad61 said:


> Gm has the chance to be the rebound guy to pick up the girl that VW beat up and left a black eye on. we can either be the saving grace that punches VW in the face and play the hero... winning over the crying girl and the benefits or simply play the bystander wishing we would have taken action and stepped in all the while saying quietly.... i could fill the part and be so much better then VW


Problem is, the likely timing of the Cruze Diesel will be well after the majority of VW owners have received their "settlement" cash and/or sold back their VWs. I realize that GM should not rush to market but I also doubt prior VW owners will be willing to wait 3-10 months until the Cruze Diesel is available.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

2014Oilburner said:


> Yea, I understand that..but..I was talking about new 2017 models...if it only cost 400 dollars or so to equipped a new diesel from the factory why not keep selling diesels..I don't know if I buy that VW burned the bridges with the EPA and such to sell diesels...if a 2017 diesel passes the standards..like the Cruze diesel does...than the EPA would have to approve the new 2017 model for sale..or am I missing something in my thinking


Yes, as mentioned before, politics. The anti-ICE (internal combustion engine) advocates, many in government and regulatory agencies (think Tesla pals for instance) they want the end of ICE period. They push all electric and the transition to that, hybrids. Given they could take VW to oblivion for their cheating on fines alone, VW pledges to go away from ICE with investment in electrics and hybrids... And now it makes sense. Politics is in every thing, sadly. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> problem is, the likely timing of the cruze diesel will be well after the majority of vw owners have received their "settlement" cash and/or sold back their vws. I realize that gm should not rush to market but i also doubt prior vw owners will be willing to wait 3-10 months until the cruze diesel is available.


agreed, now if gm where to allocate more resources into the cruze diesel they would have the product tested and ready while meeting the perfect timeline entry for the rebound....


----------

