# Charge pipes



## pureBS (Sep 10, 2011)

So is there anybody interested in getting aftermarket charge pipes injen said they would if there was more intrest besides me


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Just out of curiosity, would there be any benefit to these aside from cosmetic appearance? I haven't really looked at them much.


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

The stock ones suck, of course there would be a benefit to aftermarket pipes. The real problem is the intercooler location. It is worthless where it's at. GM would have been better off not intercooling it at all. Would have made my life a lot easier installing the ZZP FMIC kit.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iCruze2 said:


> The stock ones suck, of course there would be a benefit to aftermarket pipes. The real problem is the intercooler location. It is worthless where it's at. GM would have been better off not intercooling it at all. Would have made my life a lot easier installing the ZZP FMIC kit.


On a more serious note, what about them specifically sucks, and what real gains could be expected with new ones?

Part of the reason I'm asking this is because I don't exactly think these would be too difficult to make.


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> On a more serious note, what about them specifically sucks, and what real gains could be expected with new ones?
> 
> Part of the reason I'm asking this is because I don't exactly think these would be too difficult to make.


They aren't difficult to make. You can build your own kit with ebay parts. Problem is, ability to weld a plate designed to fit the maf sensor into the charge pipe. The stock charge pipes are shitty for numerous reasons. They have too many bends which are not mandrel bent, which decreases air flow. Their about 1 3/4 to 2" in diameter, again restricting air flow. Lastly, they look like crap!!! I could have easily saved myself $650 and built one myself with ebay parts. But I have no access to a welder, and no access to fabricating the maf plate for the charge piping. With that said, if Injen did make the pipes, they would probably sell them for about $400 say, and you can get a FMIC from ebay for $150 or less. So the extra $250 ZZP charges is for design and labor fees. I can tell you, since I have installed mine, I see much better MPG. I can't give you an actual number now, I installed it last night and filled up my car today, so I will monitor my MPG. If you wish to see my car in person, I live in Chicago suburbs too(Northwest).


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## mcg75 (Mar 5, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> On a more serious note, what about them specifically sucks, and what real gains could be expected with new ones?
> 
> Part of the reason I'm asking this is because I don't exactly think these would be too difficult to make.


Those who are running more boost with a tune would really get the most benefit out of these. The pipes were not designed for the extra boost pressure.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iCruze2 said:


> They aren't difficult to make. You can build your own kit with ebay parts. Problem is, ability to weld a plate designed to fit the maf sensor into the charge pipe. The stock charge pipes are shitty for numerous reasons. They have too many bends which are not mandrel bent, which decreases air flow. Their about 1 3/4 to 2" in diameter, again restricting air flow. Lastly, they look like crap!!! I could have easily saved myself $650 and built one myself with ebay parts. But I have no access to a welder, and no access to fabricating the maf plate for the charge piping. With that said, if Injen did make the pipes, they would probably sell them for about $400 say, and you can get a FMIC from ebay for $150 or less. So the extra $250 ZZP charges is for design and labor fees. I can tell you, since I have installed mine, I see much better MPG. I can't give you an actual number now, I installed it last night and filled up my car today, so I will monitor my MPG. If you wish to see my car in person, I live in Chicago suburbs too(Northwest).


Wasn't the MAF sensor in the intake right behind the filter? Are you referring to the IAT sensor? 

I'd love to see your car. Problem is, I'm in the south suburbs, and that's a 1.5 hour drive on a good day, lol. 

I'll take a look in my engine bay tonight or tomorrow and see what can be done. I have a machine shop nearby that should be able to weld both steel and aluminum. 

Regarding the FMIC, I'm still on the fence about that one. Wouldn't installing one require the removal of the grill shutters in the Eco?



mcg75 said:


> Those who are running more boost with a tune would really get the most benefit out of these. The pipes were not designed for the extra boost pressure.


Pressure, or velocity?


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

I'd love a FMIC, but won't give up the shutters. If it comes down to extra MPG or extra power, I'll take the MPG and save the money for a car with more power.


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## pureBS (Sep 10, 2011)

Well is any one else interested I know I am because I have a tune and a cai so it would top me off for a little bit


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## OnlyTaurus (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm not sure I'd trust Injen with making the pipes, it's bad enough there's been problems with their cold air intake not benefiting many. Dont get me wrong, I'd love to see the pipes made! But I think we should be talking to ZZP and getting info on a possible group buy. They MADE the pipes(and intercooler) specifically with the Cruze design in mind. Not just slapping medrel bends together like Injen would.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

OnlyTaurus said:


> I'm not sure I'd trust Injen with making the pipes, it's bad enough there's been problems with their cold air intake not benefiting many. Dont get me wrong, I'd love to see the pipes made! But I think we should be talking to ZZP and getting info on a possible group buy. They MADE the pipes(and intercooler) specifically with the Cruze design in mind. Not just slapping medrel bends together like Injen would.


This.

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## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

Well let's all send zzp a email stateing that they should give us a group buy.

Sent from my Droid


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## silverram323 (Mar 16, 2012)

Pics?


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## NyteSnyper (Jan 30, 2012)

I do believe the sensor being discussed is the MAP sensor...

Definately interested in this as I don't care for all of the black plastic these car mfgs are putting in the engine bays these days to try to make things "pretty". Some nice silver/polished, maybe - piping i would love in the engine bay (the FMIC wouldnt hurt either).

Still sitting on the fence about making my own kit, so i will be paying attention to this thread and those like it...


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

Injen made pipes for the Cobalt SS/TC....never had a problem with them. And I STILL have had NO problems with my Injen CAI


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Wasn't the MAF sensor in the intake right behind the filter? Are you referring to the IAT sensor?
> 
> I'd love to see your car. Problem is, I'm in the south suburbs, and that's a 1.5 hour drive on a good day, lol.
> 
> ...


I don't have an Eco, so I couldn't answer that question. Limited and Skillz put same kit on their Eco's. I meant MAP sensor not MAF, lol my bad.


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## pureBS (Sep 10, 2011)

I have injen cai and have no problem with it people complained about getting water in them y don't they just put the hydro shield on them sure it cost a little extra but it is worth it plus my buddy has a cobalt SS and he has had nothing but trouble out of zzp don't get me wrong I'm not trying to bash them I say we give both company's a chance see which one is better and cheaper


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

pureBS said:


> I have injen cai and have no problem with it people complained about getting water in them y don't they just put the hydro shield on them sure it cost a little extra but it is worth it plus my buddy has a cobalt SS and he has had nothing but trouble out of zzp don't get me wrong I'm not trying to bash them I say we give both company's a chance see which one is better and cheaper


Injen isn't very liked by a few people because they released an intake that isn't exactly a direct bolt-on. The pipe diameter is a little larger than it should be, which threw off the MAF tuning. The ZZP intake will do this too, but at least they're upfront about it and tell you flat out that you'll lean out your motor until you get a tune. 

The issue with their intake I believe is the stock MAF sensor is integrated. Long story short, it throws off the calibration. More thought and testing could have gone into that bit.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Having problems in interpreting exactly what you guys want to accomplish. Have an idea you are talking about the air flow circuit between the air cleaner and the throttle body using lower resistive tubing than the plastic used in the 1.4 L turbo engine.

When discussing a modification, normal to specify which engine one is talking about. If we are talking about the air circuit in the 1.4L turbo, starts from the air intake a 90* bend first off to its outlet, then is routed to the intake of the turbo, then straight down and around to the right lower side of the radiator, through the intercooler to the left, then upwards and over finally to the intake of throttle body.

Just quickly counted about 10 1/2 90* bends. In air flow circuits an elbow is roughly equivalent to about 30 feet of the same straight pipe. Namely an elbow is the major culprit of restriction.

If you really want to improve airflow, what needs to be done more than anything, is to get rid of those elbows. Good luck with that.

If you want to see polished aluminum tubing, take a look at an 88 Toyota Surpa turbo, that was a 33,000 buck car back then. With the kind of inflation we have, a new Cruze like it is would have sold for 8-9,000 bucks. But that tubing does have a set back, all of it has to be removed just to change the spark plugs. Its a five minute job to replace the plugs in the Cruze, so that is another trade off.

Still managing to get 138 HP out of an 86 cube engine, really isn't that bad. MAF is the output of the air cleaner, intake air temperature with the MAF determines the amount of air entering the engine for open loop operation, also when accelerating or decelerating. Do have a range for production tolerance in a so called learn mode. But more than likely will be far off with any modifications. Part of the emission control devices mandated by the EPA. Just another consideration when making changes.


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## pureBS (Sep 10, 2011)

I talked to zzp and they have charge pipes already you just have to buy the intercooler kit


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

pureBS said:


> I talked to zzp and they have charge pipes already you just have to buy the intercooler kit


I guess that kinda defeats the purpose of getting your own charge pipes if they require you to buy their intercooler to get them. How much is an intercooler normally? $150? They're basically charging you $650 for charge pipes and R&D.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

I had to leave my shutter motor in the front bumper functioning, it still thinks its turning 90 degrees upon command...


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

The zzp kit is a gorgeous piece... Worth every penny in my opinion...


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## WM.Mike (Apr 1, 2012)

^ Looks great!


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## NYCruze2012 (Jan 16, 2012)

Very very swanky! So how does it feel now?

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## CruzeTech (Mar 23, 2012)

I havent looked under the hood of this car much to check the routing of things, but I can just about guarantee that the stock blow off valve leaks under boost. Getting a nice set of pipes as well as a new blow off valve would do wonders for this car. There is even a chance that the guys with the 1.4 tunes are seeing the boost drop off due to either the wastegate getting pushed open or the blow off valve getting pushed open. I agree with getting the entire front mouth though for sure. may as well take care of the entire problem.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Interesting since I have the 1.4 L Turbo.










Pricetag is $799.99, why do I look at that first?

Do give a comparison between this and the stock intercooler.

"
Stock core dimensions:
26 1/4" x 11 1/4" x 1 1/4"

ZZP core dimensions:
*27 1/2*" x 6 3/4" x *4*""

Cross sectional area is increased by 192%, but typically in heat exchangers its the frontal area that produces more heat exchanging
here the stock intercooler is 296 sq in as opposed to 185 sq in or 159% larger.

Could not find any performance gains, only one review, guy claims a 10*F lower intake temperature, but that in terms of air density measurements would only increase the static air pressure by 0.002 psi. Humidity is not even mentions that has even a much greater effect on air density. Contrary to popular belief, high humidity air has a much lower air density.

In central Wisconsin, experience a daily temperature change of around 30*F, so get a large gain by driving at night, but humidity also increases due to the dew point. Seasonal temperature changes are as great as 130*F, could drive just during the winter, but then can only buy that reformulated gas with a much lower BTU rating. Ha, thinking about buying a tanker so I can load up in Texas.

Then there is exhaust gas recirculation, in the 1.4 L accomplished by closing the exhaust valves early, in effect that 86 cube engine becomes a 60 cube engine. Could change that for the drag strip, but would only be good for a couple of runs, then you will need to do a complete engine overhaul.

That 800 bucks could also be used to buy you 200 gallons of gas, and pretty poor gas at that with only 75% of the energy value before the EPA got involved. EPA is not obligated in any way to show improvements in their changes. But the rest of us sure end up paying the price.

IT'S THE LAW!!!!


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## jayman4312 (May 2, 2012)

CruzeTech said:


> I havent looked under the hood of this car much to check the routing of things, but I can just about guarantee that the stock blow off valve leaks under boost. Getting a nice set of pipes as well as a new blow off valve would do wonders for this car. There is even a chance that the guys with the 1.4 tunes are seeing the boost drop off due to either the wastegate getting pushed open or the blow off valve getting pushed open. I agree with getting the entire front mouth though for sure. may as well take care of the entire problem.


why do you say the stock one probably leaks? From my experience, which is a decent amount in the turbo worked, most after market bov's leak while the oem BPV works great and don't leak. (these have bpv's, not bov's) getting just new charge pipe and a BOV would cuase issues in running rich between shifts, venting metered air, and leaking vacuum causing other issues most commonly idle issues. the only valve worth your time really is tial or a fw tohers that are $400+.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NickD said:


> Interesting since I have the 1.4 L Turbo.
> 
> 
> Pricetag is $799.99, why do I look at that first?
> ...


I believe the purpose for the front mounted intercooler is to get it out of the engine bay. Someone is free to correct me, but I believe in this case, the intercooler is sandwiched between the radiator and A/C condenser. If both are running (and creating heat), the intercooler will become heat soaked and will be less effective. Having an external intercooler toward the front of the car keeps it away from the engine bay heat and that of the radiator and condenser. 

That is, if you do a lot of hard driving. For those that don't, the benefit is questionable.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Stock intercooler is directly under the condenser and fed by vents in the lower front bumper.

Things AC guys tried is adding electric fans in front of the condenser to cool it down to reduce high side pressures and get more interior cooling. This works far better in slow city driving, but on the highway, can actually restrict air flow, so better not to have them.

Same would be true of the intercooler, just another variable to consider. Where do you do most of your driving?

But that static increase of air density is practically linear, so with only about an increase of 0.002 psi per a 10*F drop in temperature. Even with a 50*f drop in temperature, only about a 0.01 psi increase in pressure. Still rather insignificant.

Should see some dyno tests. Hate to admit this in thermodynamics, thought I had some very good ideas and very logical, but failed in the test lab. Still feel thermodynamics is more of an art than a science. Just way too many variables.

Verified by a good old friend, an MVAC engineer, even with computer simulation software, in actual test, we need a lot more of this and a lot less of that. IC engineers are still working on a model for the IC engine, least they were, almost impossible to model, and really, has the overall efficiency increased over the last hundred years?
Aircraft engineers just dropped the IC reciprocating engine and went to the turbine for superior efficiency. Still way too expensive for the consumer, or is it?

I feel we should go back a hundred years and go back to the external combustion engine. Heat sources can be made today with 97% efficiency and we now have fluids to carry that energy to a drivable source.

At least the 1.4 is an under square engine, but not under square enough, before that flamefront can do any useful work, already out the exhaust pipe. EPA likes that, heats up their catalytic converter. Oil companies like that too. As do military governmental contractors to get that oil.

Estimated resources on methane and natural gas, both ideal for an external combustion engine, have at least a known 11,000 year supply. And its all right here!


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## OnlyTaurus (Mar 20, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I believe the purpose for the front mounted intercooler is to get it out of the engine bay. Someone is free to correct me, but I believe in this case, the intercooler is sandwiched between the radiator and A/C condenser. If both are running (and creating heat), the intercooler will become heat soaked and will be less effective. Having an external intercooler toward the front of the car keeps it away from the engine bay heat and that of the radiator and condenser.
> 
> That is, if you do a lot of hard driving. For those that don't, the benefit is questionable.


Exactly, and I feel anyone could benefit from it. For example, sitting at a red light for 45 seconds city driving, I've noticed my intake temps rise as much as 40 degrees. Accelerating with 125-130 degree air is not beneficial in any way, especially power-wise. However, having an intercooler that sits outside the engine bay will not only keep the engine heat away from it, but allows the air being drawn into the engine access to ambient temps before it is combusted. Also the condensor and radiator are now able to disipate heat better. (breathe more)

In addition to the reasons Xtreme stated, it also increases airflow. If you take the time to look at the stock pipes going into and out of the intercooler, the bends are 'kinked'. Hello restriction. Not to mention the stock pipes are thin plastic that you can squeeze with two fingers. The intercooler kit is not only admired by many for performance gains, but also the luxury look of true metal pipes and an intercooler that sits aggresively behind the lower grill. Don't ruin it for everyone because you think its a waste NickD, Skillz and Limited can both vouche for the performance gains of the kit and probably the comments they have gotten from them. In my opinion, I think the ZZP FMIC is well worth it, and I can NOT wait to get one.

The stock IC is directly in front of the radiator and directly behind the condensor. Its not under anything.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

OnlyTaurus said:


> In my opinion, I think the ZZP FMIC is well worth it, and I can NOT wait to get one.


I agree with everything you've said aside from this. At $800, I can certainly wait for it, lol. Once a few more companies start selling them, they will go down to $600, $500, and even $400. As it stands, it's still too expensive. 

My commute doesn't require any true stop and go traffic. With A/C on, I haven't exceeded 130 degrees F IAT. Certainly not good for performance, but with the corrected spark plug gap, I'm not low on power or acceleration regardless of what the temperatures are.


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

NickD said:


> Stock intercooler is directly under the condenser and fed by vents in the lower front bumper.
> 
> Things AC guys tried is adding electric fans in front of the condenser to cool it down to reduce high side pressures and get more interior cooling. This works far better in slow city driving, but on the highway, can actually restrict air flow, so better not to have them.
> 
> ...


You're wrong. The stock intercooler is not under the ac condenser. It is sandwiched in-between the ac condenser and the radiator. If you have an automatic, you have a trans cooler directly above the intercooler. There are NO vents blowing cold air up towards the intercooler either. I got raped, paid the money, and installed the FMIC from ZZP myself. I know exactly where everything is located on that front end!!! Anyway, so far, I am experiencing some serious MPG increase, and cooler IAT's. And I do beat on my car so I needed this upgrade.


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## OnlyTaurus (Mar 20, 2012)

NickD said:


> Then there is exhaust gas recirculation, in the 1.4 L accomplished by closing the exhaust valves early.


Actually, the ECM can command either intake or exhaust valve to advance or retard, depending on engine load. Typically, the exhaust valve will stay open LONGER so the engine can suck some exhaust emissions back in the engine during intake stroke.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

Its 76 in detroit area right now... Drove the car for first time in weeks... let it idle for 20+ minutes with AC on... was at 134F IAT when I got in it... within ~20 second my IAT's were holding constant at 86F.... 

+1 for ZZP... Kit is worth every penny. ZZP is top quality, you will never get this quailty in any FMIC for $400... I have a 600HP capable Intercooler setup in my basement for my integra... ~$600 invested and no where close to this quality...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iCruze2 said:


> You're wrong. The stock intercooler is not under the ac condenser. It is sandwiched in-between the ac condenser and the radiator. If you have an automatic, you have a trans cooler directly above the intercooler. There are NO vents blowing cold air up towards the intercooler either. I got raped, paid the money, and installed the FMIC from ZZP myself. I know exactly where everything is located on that front end!!! Anyway, so far, I am experiencing some serious MPG increase, and cooler IAT's. And I do beat on my car so I needed this upgrade.


Tell me more about this serious mpg increase. The skeptic in me wants to question "how," especially since I'm one to try to squeeze out every last bit of fuel economy out of my Cruze and short of reducing KR, I'm not seeing much of a benefit to fuel economy. If anything, this would require my removal of the grill shutters. How much of a difference are we talking here?


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## OnlyTaurus (Mar 20, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I agree with everything you've said aside from this. At $800, I can certainly wait for it, lol. Once a few more companies start selling them, they will go down to $600, $500, and even $400. As it stands, it's still too expensive.
> 
> My commute doesn't require any true stop and go traffic. With A/C on, I haven't exceeded 130 degrees F IAT. Certainly not good for performance, but with the corrected spark plug gap, I'm not low on power or acceleration regardless of what the temperatures are.


Thats true. I can probably wait too(might not have a choice lol), but I am still anxious to get one. As for my temps, it probably doesn't help that I have a SRI . I'm actually contemplating trading someone for an Injen CAI if interested. Might solve my intake temps issue a little I'd say ha!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

limited360 said:


> Its 76 in detroit area right now... Drove the car for first time in weeks... let it idle for 20+ minutes with AC on... was at 134F IAT when I got in it... within ~20 second my IAT's were holding constant at 86F....
> 
> +1 for ZZP... Kit is worth every penny. ZZP is top quality, you will never get this quailty in any FMIC for $400... I have a 600HP capable Intercooler setup in my basement for my integra... ~$600 invested and no where close to this quality...


I have a suspicion that ZZP will not still be selling this for $800 once a few more companies come out with their own variants. Just a suspicion. 

A thought just passed through my mind...for the money I'd spend on the Cruze on a tune, intake, and intercooler, I could probably turn the regal into a mid 12 second car.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

OnlyTaurus said:


> Thats true. I can probably wait too(might not have a choice lol), but I am still anxious to get one. As for my temps, it probably doesn't help that I have a SRI . I'm actually contemplating trading someone for an Injen CAI if interested. Might solve my intake temps issue a little I'd say ha!


Uh, yeah that certainly does *not *help. I still need to actually remove my resonator box and put that duct back in so it sucks air from even further down. Should help IATs even more and not require the intercooler to work as hard.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Tell me more about this serious mpg increase. The skeptic in me wants to question "how," especially since I'm one to try to squeeze out every last bit of fuel economy out of my Cruze and short of reducing KR, I'm not seeing much of a benefit to fuel economy. If anything, this would require my removal of the grill shutters. How much of a difference are we talking here?



Vince's exact words after viewing my datalog... 'I can't believe how much spark I could put back into the tune from the *CONSTANT* lower IAT's' .... I would imagine some fuel economy benefits there...


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

I am running the Injen in CAI format as well guys.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

limited360 said:


> Vince's exact words after viewing my datalog... 'I can't believe how much spark I could put back into the tune from the *CONSTANT* lower IAT's' .... I would imagine some fuel economy benefits there...


So what effect does this have on non-tuned motors?


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

iCruze2 said:


> You're wrong. The stock intercooler is not under the ac condenser. It is sandwiched in-between the ac condenser and the radiator. If you have an automatic, you have a trans cooler directly above the intercooler. There are NO vents blowing cold air up towards the intercooler either. I got raped, paid the money, and installed the FMIC from ZZP myself. I know exactly where everything is located on that front end!!! Anyway, so far, I am experiencing some serious MPG increase, and cooler IAT's. And I do beat on my car so I needed this upgrade.


Okay, we should distinguish between an AT and an MT, so I am wrong about the AT and correct with the MT. Another variable.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> So what effect does this have on non-tuned motors?



I put the word 'constant' in bold... the problem on the stock IC is the residual heat soak that stays, you end up with a higher IAT all the time... Where I soak back down to ~4-5F above ambient and stay there all the time  Temps only go up when I do a full run through 1-2-3 and leave the throttle closed... as soon as I tip back in, temps sky rocket back down to ~4-5F....


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

Intercooler is located in same place on auto and on manual... end of story.


BTW today I owned the Cruze for 1 year...


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Tell me more about this serious mpg increase. The skeptic in me wants to question "how," especially since I'm one to try to squeeze out every last bit of fuel economy out of my Cruze and short of reducing KR, I'm not seeing much of a benefit to fuel economy. If anything, this would require my removal of the grill shutters. How much of a difference are we talking here?


Wish I could tell you more, I can't explain it. Streets I used to get 40mpg down, I'm now getting 60mpg down. 


XtremeRevolution said:


> I have a suspicion that ZZP will not still be selling this for $800 once a few more companies come out with their own variants. Just a suspicion.
> A thought just passed through my mind...for the money I'd spend on the Cruze on a tune, intake, and intercooler, I could probably turn the regal into a mid 12 second car.


Quite sure no other companies will be making parts for our cars. ZZP has always specialized in GM smaller engines and always will.


XtremeRevolution said:


> Uh, yeah that certainly does *not *help. I still need to actually remove my resonator box and put that duct back in so it sucks air from even further down. Should help IATs even more and not require the intercooler to work as hard.


IMO the stock intercooler does NOTHING, its worthless. There is no way it can cool down boost in the stock location.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

limited360 said:


> I put the word 'constant' in bold... the problem on the stock IC is the residual heat soak that stays, you end up with a higher IAT all the time... Where I soak back down to ~4-5F above ambient and stay there all the time  Temps only go up when I do a full run through 1-2-3 and leave the throttle closed... as soon as I tip back in, temps sky rocket back down to ~4-5F....


Yes, I understand this. There is some heat soak; no doubt about it, but does the stock tune actually benefit from the lower IATs? Seems to me that Vince was able to put spark *back*, implying he had to remove it for the tune perhaps as a result of the higher boost pressures. 

I have heard that the stock tune pulls quite a bit of timing during higher IATs, but I don't recall exactly how much more.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iCruze2 said:


> Wish I could tell you more, I can't explain it. Streets I used to get 40mpg down, I'm now getting 60mpg down.
> 
> Quite sure no other companies will be making parts for our cars. ZZP has always specialized in GM smaller engines and always will.
> 
> IMO the stock intercooler does NOTHING, its worthless. There is no way it can cool down boost in the stock location.


I'm already getting 60-70mpg down streets, lol. Just saying. 

The stock intercooler IMO does something, although the only way to truly determine how much it does would be to put a temperature sensor inside inlet pipe and compare that to the IAT readings. I have a pretty big suspicion that little turbo creates quite a bit of heat. I'm also fairly certain the little 1.4L motor doesn't create as much heat as we'd like to believe. 

Just thinking out loud here.


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I'm already getting 60-70mpg down streets, lol. Just saying.
> 
> The stock intercooler IMO does something, although the only way to truly determine how much it does would be to put a temperature sensor inside inlet pipe and compare that to the IAT readings. I have a pretty big suspicion that little turbo creates quite a bit of heat. I'm also fairly certain the little 1.4L motor doesn't create as much heat as we'd like to believe.
> 
> Just thinking out loud here.


I don't have an Eco....just saying!!!!


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

boost posted the timing map... spark reduction is SIGNIFICANT with mildly hot IAT's on this car...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iCruze2 said:


> I don't have an Eco....just saying!!!!


Lol. So what are your averages at the pump? 



limited360 said:


> boost posted the timing map... spark reduction is SIGNIFICANT with mildly hot IAT's on this car...


Right, I recall someone did. I'm going to modify my intake again this week.


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Lol. So what are your averages at the pump?
> 
> 
> 
> Right, I recall someone did. I'm going to modify my intake again this week.


I'll let you know tomorrow. I have been making 5 minute trips to the hospital and back(my daughter was just born) Im going to put some miles on tomorrow and will need to fill up.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iCruze2 said:


> I'll let you know tomorrow. I have been making 5 minute trips to the hospital and back(my daughter was just born) Im going to put some miles on tomorrow and will need to fill up.


Congrats!

Sent from my Bulletproof_Doubleshot using AutoGuide.Com Free App


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Any time you hit the gas your spark advance severely retards, has to, take longer to burn that mixture. Also, when cruising down the highway, your air intake temperature is ignored, closed loop mode, O2 sensor takes over to assure the correct AF ratio. Spark is advanced to maximum depending on the grade of fuel you are using, higher octane fuel burns slower so you get more spark advance and hence, better fuel economy.

But hitting the gas changes all this, MAF and IAT temperature take over as well as the MAP fo open loop parameters to determine the best AF ratio.

Just more variables to consider when making modifications, how you drive makes a huge difference if your interest is in fuel economy.

Just playing with the air intake is just a drop in the bucket, have the air circuit in the engine to consider, valve timing, EGR, emissions, and the exhaust, heck get rid of that terrible catalytic converter while you are at it. But risk a $25,000 fine in the process if caught.

Designing an engine is not an easy task, have to make the EPA, DOT, insurance companies happy, the bean counters, the stock holders, production, material limitations, etc., etc., etc. Even engine noise is a strong consideration, some things are really dumb like using a rubber damped harmonic balancer where that rubber rots away.

Let's see some accurate test results, and what kind of fuel are you burning. Latter really throws me for a loop, have no idea what I am buying anymore.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

No offense... But I don't think you understand the complexity of modern ecu's. I assure you that in closed loop operation IAT's are taken into account .


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

As an FYI... These cars don't just go open loop from a heavy Accel even, open loop doesn't happen until WOT above a certain RPM, than open loop fueling is trim based on fueling adaptions under closed loop... It's way more complex than that... But it's not as simple as the ECU's from even 5 years ago.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

limited360 said:


> No offense... But I don't think you understand the complexity of modern ecu's. I assure you that in closed loop operation IAT's are taken into account .


Easiest way out is for me to avoid topics like this.

Wife always wanted a power motor boat and a motorhome, searched and found two nice pre OBD II. With the motorhome, could tune it the way I wanted to and can get 15 mpg if she would let me drive it at 55. Would also be driving a pre OBD I vehicle if I could find one that isn't a pile of rust. This is because I do understand modern electronics. 

If you take the time to check every sensor and get it to mean specification, won't even have a learn mode. Flashram for firmware storage is totally stupid in my opinion, but a cost savings. Maybe for the manufacturer, but not for you or me.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

NickD said:


> Easiest way out is for me to avoid topics like this.
> 
> Wife always wanted a power motor boat and a motorhome, searched and found two nice pre OBD II. With the motorhome, could tune it the way I wanted to and can get 15 mpg if she would let me drive it at 55. Would also be driving a pre OBD I vehicle if I could find one that isn't a pile of rust. This is because I do understand modern electronics.
> 
> If you take the time to check every sensor and get it to mean specification, won't even have a learn mode. Flashram for firmware storage is totally stupid in my opinion, but a cost savings. Maybe for the manufacturer, but not for you or me.


I do vehicle cal for a living... trust me I hate the complexity of the ECU... 

I assume by 'learn mode' you mean adaptation? Without this feature in modern cars you would be failing emissions left and right. All sensors drift over time, you have to compensate for this.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Closed loop parameters based steady O2 sensor readings are used to adjust the open loop parameters, such as the MAF, MAP, IAT, Throttle position, and injector dwell. In general, scanners can only detect opens or short in automotive. I also worked in military electronics, all diagnostic systems were based on secondary or tertiary references.

If interested, am 73 years old, was working activately until I was 69, then my company moved to China, degreed engineer, hold a FCC 1st class license with radar endorsement, and an FAA certified tech. hold 22 patents in the avionics and automotive field. Started off with vacuum tube and relay logic design, then point contact transistors, germanium, silicon, then integrated circuit design, considered a top expert in mixed signal ASIC design.

Was pretty good at programming microcontrollers in the 80's, but found that to be extremely boring sitting a c computer all day typing mnemonic code. Working for government contractors was also a drag, lowest bidder, and no family life, found stability in automotive. But really in the garbage quality, forced to use consumer grade electronics in the military specification world. Was also chosen as an expert witness in over a dozen multi-million dollar lawsuits. So can be a little bit critical on modifications.

But can stay quiet on this issue. Ha, I am not proud, just tell me to go away. Ha, neither my boat or motorhome require the use of a catalytic converter. Find the EPA rather flexible on RV and commercial applications. But they sure love to jump on the individual.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Still would be good to see some accurate test data. Always have to keep an opened mind.


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## 20126spdRS (Dec 27, 2011)

iCruze2 said:


> They aren't difficult to make. You can build your own kit with ebay parts. Problem is, ability to weld a plate designed to fit the maf sensor into the charge pipe. The stock charge pipes are shitty for numerous reasons. They have too many bends which are not mandrel bent, which decreases air flow. Their about 1 3/4 to 2" in diameter, again restricting air flow. Lastly, they look like crap!!! I could have easily saved myself $650 and built one myself with ebay parts. But I have no access to a welder, and no access to fabricating the maf plate for the charge piping. With that said, if Injen did make the pipes, they would probably sell them for about $400 say, and you can get a FMIC from ebay for $150 or less. So the extra $250 ZZP charges is for design and labor fees. I can tell you, since I have installed mine, I see much better MPG. I can't give you an actual number now, I installed it last night and filled up my car today, so I will monitor my MPG. If you wish to see my car in person, I live in Chicago suburbs too(Northwest).


^^ im in huffman mistakes... i would like to check out that FMIC sometime i was thinking about ordering it.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

Military diagnostics aren't required to detection deterioration in emissions systems performance... I just did a massive project on diagnostics and prognostics for the US military, looking at way different failure modes and such....

However I am on same page... I have 5 cars... on has an ETC... rest are as basic fuel injection as you get...


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## iCruze2 (Dec 16, 2011)

20126spdRS said:


> ^^ im in huffman mistakes... i would like to check out that FMIC sometime i was thinking about ordering it.


I'm moving in 2 weeks, pm me and maybe you can check it out this weekend!


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

limited360 said:


> Military diagnostics aren't required to detection deterioration in emissions systems performance... I just did a massive project on diagnostics and prognostics for the US military, looking at way different failure modes and such....
> 
> However I am on same page... I have 5 cars... on has an ETC... rest are as basic fuel injection as you get...


Military is and always has been exempt from EPA regulations, not only with emissions but with nuclear weapons as well.

But emissions wasn't my point, it the use of secondary or tertiary references. As a very simple example, the engine temperature sensor, automotive diagnostics can only detect if this simple sensor is opened or shorted. If it specified to have say exactly 221 ohms at 25*C, the diagnosis in automotive systems has no means to verify or to check that. Could be 500 ohms at that same temperature with zero error codes displayed. In the mean time your ECM, or PCM thinks your engine should be in open loop rather than closed loop mode reducing overall engine performance. In military several such sensors would be incorporated so the actual reading can be compared to indicate a trouble code.

The same holds true for all practically all the sensors, least with the O2 sense, can count the number of changes per minute to generate a code, normally they slow way down with age.

One reason why you drive into your dealer with a poor running engine, sees no codes and says, nothing is wrong. The only way to do this is to pull each sensor and test it. This requires a lot of electronic tester with an environmental chamber being one of the key elements.

But you also need test specifications, in the 80's, both Toyota and Honda was good at this providing complete curves over the entire temperature range. Domestics are very poor at this, if lucky, maybe a single check point. But nothing about the linearity over the complete operating temperature range.

Manuals give stupid comments like solid state do not test or replace with a known good unit. But how do you know if a unit is good or not without the test specifications?

Behind the scenes for the reasons given for NOT providing these key specifications are weak, one reason is not wanting to provide your competitors with this information, another, the manufacturers would be liable for free replacement, so they keep you guessing.

One way to get this information is to procure at least one samples and test each and everyone of them to generate a mean curve, not handy for the mechanic nor the DIYer.

Can solid state be tested? Most certainly can, matter of fact, super easy to design an electronic circuit, but can drive you insane in trying out how to test it on a mass production scale. In the old days designed special test circuitry, today practically all IEE-488 protocol using conventional test equipment driven by a programmed PC.

Each manufacturer may have over 120 different PCM programs for each make, model, and engine year that all has to be tested, and changes yearly with EPA regulations. This gets insane.

With sub micron technology, one failed FET can leave you stranded out of millions of such FET's. I don't want to even think about that when driving in the boon docks in sub-zero weather. Greatest fear is just a tiny pinhole in the passivation of that chip. Impurities can enter and render it useless. Flash memory storing the firmware really scares me.

With a single set of ignition points and a pocket knife, can get the engine going again, but dead meat with all this electronic stuff, even as an very experienced engineer.

Its all about having an EPA that is trying to burn a filthy fuel clean, an impossible task no matter how you look at it. And controlled by an oil controlled congress that makes these laws.

Then false advertising, do not run a vehicle that claims to have zero emissions in a closed garage space. In less than ten minutes, you will be dead.

Ironic how the BS floats around in this country supposingly with intelligent people.


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## CHEVYCRUZE RS (Mar 29, 2011)

I contacted INJEN a while back about the charge pipes they said they weren't doing anything yet . I'm really down for INJEN to make charge pipes even ZZP . BUT , they gotta be polished !!! I'm interested in the group buy so put me down. Let's get a list going so we can show we are interested !


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## CHEVYCRUZE RS (Mar 29, 2011)

I really wished zzp made polished charge pipes for the Intercooler instead of the black ones . Polished charge pipes in our engine bay would look awesome ! All I need is an Intercooler now lol


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

Since 1996 car have done more than stuck hi stuck lo on temp sensors... Carb 1968.2


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