# Chevy Cruze Eco is lowest-cost "Green Car" to operate over 5 years.



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

One thing to keep in mind is that the EPA ratings are not consistent with what people are experiencing on Fuelly.com. 

On Fuelly as of mid February, all Cruze Ecos (manual and automatic combined) were averaging 37.3mpg. I calculated this by hand by sorting through all 150+ cars listed for 2011. By comparison, the Prius averages 47.4mpg for the 2011 model year's entries of 161 cars. 

The difference between fuel economy then becomes smaller and the Cruze Eco gains a more significant lead over the Prius.

EDIT: looks like they mentiond that. They say Cruze Eco owners are averaging 38.6mpg. 

They also listed the Prius for $23,015. I'd like to know where they got that price. The Cruze MSRP was pulled directly from the website, but the Prius starts at $24k even according to Toyota's website.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

The big problem with including the Leaf in this list is that if you travel at all in most parts of the US, you have to have a second car. The Leaf is extremely range limited (EPA estimate is 73 miles) and as such can't even get between metropolitian areas in most parts of the US. It can't even travel from one side of Denver to the other and back.The other four cars can at least stop and be ready to resume travel in 5-15 minutes.

Thus the 5 year cost of a Nisson Leaf must also include the 5 year cost of a second car.


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

obermd said:


> The big problem with including the Leaf in this list is that if you travel at all in most parts of the US, you have to have a second car. The Leaf is extremely range limited (EPA estimate is 73 miles) and as such can't even get between metropolitian areas in most parts of the US. It can't even travel from one side of Denver to the other and back.The other four cars can at least stop and be ready to resume travel in 5-15 minutes.
> 
> Thus the 5 year cost of a Nisson Leaf must also include the 5 year cost of a second car.


My biggest gripe with electric cars... Just doesn't support the American lifestyle, everything is too separated!


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

limited360 said:


> My biggest gripe with electric cars... Just doesn't support the American lifestyle, everything is too separated!


It doesn't support all lifestyles, but it could definitely fit into the lifestyle of many families who already have two-cars, It depends on whether it fits the commute of one of the drivers. Since commuting makes up roughly 2/3 of the average persons annual driving. The second car they planned to have anyway could be gas.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Eugene_C said:


> It doesn't support all lifestyles, but it could definitely fit into the lifestyle of many families who already have two-cars, It depends on whether it fits the commute of one of the drivers. Since commuting makes up roughly 2/3 of the average persons annual driving. The second car they planned to have anyway could be gas.


Yeah, but then what's the point? Just so you can say you have an electric car? $35k is an aweful lot to be paying for something to use as an "extra" car. 

It would fit said lifestyles if it competed with gasoline engines, but it doesn't. You pay a lot more to to go a lot less and by the time you break even with a gas motor, you'll probably have needed to replace the batteries 2-3 times over. 

Then again, if Obama's administration keeps artificially cranking our gas prices at the pump in order to "promote research of alternative fuels", I might start eating my words.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

Cruze Eco and Prius are realistically going to cost the same. It's a matter of opinion which one works better for somebody. I considered them both, ran my personal mileage/gas price numbers on both, and they came out equal at the end of a few years. Then it was personal preference.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

sciphi said:


> Cruze Eco and Prius are realistically going to cost the same. It's a matter of opinion which one works better for somebody. I considered them both, ran my personal mileage/gas price numbers on both, and they came out equal at the end of a few years. Then it was personal preference.


That's where the Cruze starts to kick butt. 

While the Prius looks like a wedge of cheese, the Cruze does not. While the Prius handles like it is a wedge of cheese and is slower than smell, the Cruze corners quite confidently and gets out of its own way. 

Fuel economy and _predicted _reliability aside, I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive a Prius over a Cruze.


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## GoldenCruze (Dec 18, 2011)

One thing that isn't factored into these sort of comparisons is the future cost of fuel. You can pretty much bet it's going to go up. A greater fuel cost will change the results.


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

GoldenCruze said:


> Fuel economy and _predicted _reliability aside, I can't imagine why anyone would want to drive a Prius over a Cruze.


Same reason people would want to eat organic tofu instead of ground beef?


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Yeah, but then what's the point? Just so you can say you have an electric car? $35k is an aweful lot to be paying for something to use as an "extra" car.
> 
> It would fit said lifestyles if it competed with gasoline engines, but it doesn't. You pay a lot more to to go a lot less and by the time you break even with a gas motor, you'll probably have needed to replace the batteries 2-3 times over.
> 
> Then again, if Obama's administration keeps artificially cranking our gas prices at the pump in order to "promote research of alternative fuels", I might start eating my words.


The thing to keep in mind is that battery costs will drop. Probably within 10 years a battery car will cost the same or even less than an equivalent gas car. That's when it makes a huge difference.

The people buying these cars now are just the pioneers who can tell their grand kids about how they drove one of the first electrics and helped make the following generations of cars possible.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Eugene_C said:


> The thing to keep in mind is that battery costs will drop. Probably within 10 years a battery car will cost the same or even less than an equivalent gas car. That's when it makes a huge difference.
> 
> The people buying these cars now are just the pioneers who can tell their grand kids about how they drove one of the first electrics and helped make the following generations of cars possible.


I think that's more of a fairy tale than anything. Wishful thinking in la la land. Not insulting you or anything, but that's not the way to go and everyone knows it. The materials needed to produce any battery we've ever produced in mass quantities is more scarce than the oil we're drilling from the ground. 

The way to do it as many people have stated in the past 20 years is hydrogen, but you don't see anywhere near as much development being made there. No matter what you do, its going to cost you.

Say the cost of batteries will go down. What happens when every family in America comes home and plugs their car into the wall socket to drain enough power from the grid to get them through their round trip commute the following day? Supply and demand my friend; electricity prices will go up and soon you'll be wondering if you're actually saving any money. At the end of the day, you're still pulling power from coal burning power plants because the monkeys we have in office are too scared to allow nuclear power plants to go up. I consider that clean energy. I personally know an operations manager for a nuclear power plant about 45 minutes from where I live and I can tell you for a fact that its the safest place within a hundred miles of my house. The level of detail, precision, and redundancy these power plants have is mind boggling. 

We've had the technology for hydrogen and propane power for quite some time now. Its not about alternate or renewable fuel sources; its about money.

Electric, *battery-powered* cars are not the way of the future.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

GoldenCruze said:


> One thing that isn't factored into these sort of comparisons is the future cost of fuel. You can pretty much bet it's going to go up. A greater fuel cost will change the results.


Yeah, its going to go up, but by how much? Well, we do know its going up, but what we don't know is by how much, when, and whether or not there will be a ceiling. Its too unpredictable to really make any conclusions off of it.


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## nobog (Oct 25, 2011)

The price of the car + gas is not the cost of ownership.

Its the price of the car minus residual price (sell $ after x time or x milage or trade-in value) + operating costs.

Operating cost include maintenance, tires, insurance, gas (or electricity), interest on a loan, repairs, blah, blah, blah.

My last car (2009 Focus) cost me 23 cents/mile including all the above costs. Not bad considering the going rate is 53 cents (or so) per mile.

So the bottom line is its cost per mile. 

A Leaf might not use any gas but I'm guessing its nearly worthless after 100K (for sure its worthless during a typical Wisconsin winter where you like to run the heater and defroster at full blast).

Jim


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Ford admits, however very quietly that hybrids are worthless in a northern climate, efficiency of the battery goes down to practically nothing. Then a hybrid has to be driven like a hybrid, meaning you have to take your foot off the gas pedal a mile before that stop sign to use electrodynamic braking to recover, if you are lucky, about 40% of that stopping energy to get moving again. You can't drive that way, a taxi company in Las Vegas tried using the Prius, not the best vehicle for a cab, no space to put the luggage. But driving like a cab driver has to, averaged about 28 mpg.

Yet another factor to consider is passenger mph, can jam, say twenty people in my motorhome and obtain 300 mpg per passenger. No way is that even possible in Prius. Then that replacement battery, really a stupid design if one cell craps out the entire battery craps out, replacement cost is 8000 bucks, but Toyota has been known to be kind and only charge 3000 bucks. Hybrid vehicles are enormously more complex, if you don't have that extra stuff, won't have problems with it. Still driving on road salt, that is a major killer of any vehicle. 

With the push toward public transportation, already went broke a long time ago, only works if those vehicles are crammed full to get a gain in PMPG. Public transportation always had to be subsidized by the government, that is not a gain. Also highly inconvenient for the passengers, miss the last train and have to spend the night in a way overpriced hotel.

But one advantage of trains is that the law gives them the right of way, wouldn't be an advantage at all if they had to start and stop at every crossing. Remotely electrically powered trains were said to be clean, yeah, in the city, power stations were put outside of town. Maintenance cost and energy losses for that power conversion were enormous.

Another consideration is the ratio of weight for the load, passengers or cargo compared to the weight of the vehicle. Does a 90 pound woman really need a 4 ton Expedition to haul her around? One strong argument in her favor is her safety, safety always versus efficiency. With five average 160 pounds passenger in a Cruze, not too bad with a 1:4 passenger to vehicle weight ratio.

At the turn of the 20th century, external combustion gave way to internal combustion. Good move as you didn't have to chop down a tree, start a fire, wait a couple of hours just to go to a grocery store. But all that has changed, using say a very clean plentiful fuel like natural gas in a highly 97% efficient closed combustion chamber to heat a refrigerant as a media to drive a simple piston controlled device directly to the drive train, no transmission, no emission controls, with plenty of starting torque, could expect 200 mpg and would only need a fuel tank one fifth of the size for safety for the same range.

They didn't have that technology a hundred years ago, but we have it today. Same with monorails, was also strongly considered, different elevations would completely eliminate intersections. But again they didn't have the electronic control we have today.

Only a question of doing it, so why aren't we? An oil controlled congress with strong military to assure our supply of this filthy fuel?


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I think that's more of a fairy tale than anything. Wishful thinking in la la land. Not insulting you or anything, but that's not the way to go and everyone knows it. The materials needed to produce any battery we've ever produced in mass quantities is more scarce than the oil we're drilling from the ground...


That's not really true, though. Lithium is about as abundant as lead. There are enough known lithium reserves to build over 1 billion Nissan LEAF's at today's energy density. Energy density for lithium batteries is doubling about every 17 years, and is expected to double again and well before reaching the theoretical maximum. Plus, unlike oil, lithium is basically 100% recyclable and can be reprocessed into new batteries. There may be other battery materials the prove useful as well that would add to the pot. 

And lets not forget fuel cells. They will likely be an important source of electric reserve power sometime within the next 100 years.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Eugene_C said:


> That's not really true, though. Lithium is about as abundant as lead. There are enough known lithium reserves to build over 1 billion Nissan LEAF's at today's energy density. Energy density for lithium batteries is doubling about every 17 years, and is expected to double again and well before reaching the theoretical maximum. Plus, unlike oil, lithium is basically 100% recyclable and can be reprocessed into new batteries. There may be other battery materials the prove useful as well that would add to the pot.
> 
> And lets not forget fuel cells. They will likely be an important source of electric reserve power sometime within the next 100 years.


Do they actually recycle used batteries from hybrid cars? The Prius has a great system where it won't let the battery drain below 50%, thus extending its life quite significantly, but the Honda hybrids haven't caught onto that yet and I'm certain the Leaf will not have that luxury. My understanding is that they cannot be recycled. I could be wrong. 

Fuel cells; now that's something to catch my attention. Hydrogen fuel cells for example. In a perfect world, every house would be outfitted with a hydrogen fuel cell recharging station and your car would go 1000 miles before needing a recharge. I don't think the monkeys in Washington would like that though; too much lost profit from gas taxes, and the lobbying oil companies will keep paying them our money to make sure they are allowed to keep taking it.


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Do they actually recycle used batteries from hybrid cars? The Prius has a great system where it won't let the battery drain below 50%, thus extending its life quite significantly, but the Honda hybrids haven't caught onto that yet and I'm certain the Leaf will not have that luxury. My understanding is that they cannot be recycled. I could be wrong. ..


Toyota does recycle their hybrid batteries. Doesn't the conventional (non plug-in) Prius still use Nickel batteries? with Nickel prices where they are these days I'm sure the's a lot of value in recycling them. Most battery stores will take back your rechargeable batteries for free because they get paid for the scrap value.

Here's a link: 
Toyota Launches Hybrid Battery Recycling Program​​​
http://earth911.com/news/2010/11/02/toyota-launches-hybrid-battery-recycling-program/


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## limited360 (May 6, 2011)

Most hybrid batteries go next to the nuclear waste in the mountain storage facility I was told...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

limited360 said:


> Most hybrid batteries go next to the nuclear waste in the mountain storage facility I was told...


Yeah that's what I was told as well. 

I was also told that the nickel mines where they mine the material for the Prius batteries looks like this:


























I'm not entirely sure, is that natural? It all looks completely...dead.

See more:
http://blogs.ubc.ca/jeffnguyen/2011/03/06/save-the-earth-man/


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

They absolutely recycle the batteries. They'd be crazy not to.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

limited360 said:


> Most hybrid batteries go next to the nuclear waste in the mountain storage facility I was told...


Not true.


XtremeRevolution said:


> Yeah that's what I was told as well.
> 
> I was also told that the nickel mines where they mine the material for the Prius batteries looks like this:
> 
> ...


Doubtful, looks like a blog of someone totally misinformed. I've seen the above photos before, or something similar, but don't remember the original source. 

There was a retracted story (a copy and a single pic at http://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...ctory-turns-landscape-to-arid-wilderness.html, for instance). http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html has the retraction.


Please see Environmental - Prius Wiki regarding nickel. Or, if nothing else, Mr. Green's Web-Only Mailbag - November/December 2007 - Sierra Magazine - Sierra Club.



sciphi said:


> They absolutely recycle the batteries. They'd be crazy not to.


Yep. If you skip to the 4 minute mark of Prius Life Cycle - YouTube, you'll see their hybrid battery recycling program in action.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

nobog said:


> The price of the car + gas is not the cost of ownership.
> 
> Its the price of the car minus residual price (sell $ after x time or x milage or trade-in value) + operating costs.
> 
> Operating cost include maintenance, tires, insurance, gas (or electricity), interest on a loan, repairs, blah, blah, blah.


Yep. Per What that car really costs to own 



> *Depreciation* is the largest cost factor by far. On average, it accounts for about 46 percent of total ownership costs over five years...


Hammer Time Rewind: Depreciation Kills | The Truth About Cars also concurs that it's the largest cost.

FWIW, Consumer Reports (yes, I'm sure some of you are such huge fans of the publication... ) in the Feb '12 issue, rated the Cruze LS and 1LT as being the worst two values in small cars (they didn't test any Eco models). It's briefly mentioned at Honda Fit Repeats at Top of Consumer Reports Best New-Car Value List: Consumer Reports http://pressroom.consumerreports.org/pressroom/. The top small car pick in terms of value was the Honda Fit and #2 was the Prius model Four.

From the above URL:


> Scores were calculated based on the five-year owner cost for each vehicle along with Consumer Reports road-test score and the organization’s own predicted-reliability. Five-year owner cost estimates factor in depreciation, fuel costs, insurance premiums, interest on financing, maintenance and repairs, and sales tax. Depreciation is by far the largest owner-cost factor. In short, the better a car performs in Consumer Reports road tests and reliability ratings, and the less it costs to own over time, the better its value.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

Ehh, it all depends on what folks want out of a car, and what they're willing to pay. For me, Cruze Eco vs. Prius based on purchase price vs. gas mileage was even after 5 years. I didn't take depreciation into account since I'm intending on holding onto the car for longer than 5 years. I also bet the fuel-economy special Eco MT will be more valuable after a few years than a volume-seller 1LT Cruze due to the Eco's being comparatively rarer, and having better fuel economy. Time will tell if I picked a winner. Knowing my record on bets, likely I didn't. 

A car is still an emotional choice for most folks, myself included. And sometimes emotion rules. By logic alone, I should be driving a Prius with my driving needs and style. Oh well, my emotions got the best of me, and my wallet allows the indulgence.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

Side note: 2012 Toyota Prius Two 4Dr Hatchback | New Toyota Prius Two 4Dr Hatchback 2012 Research at IntelliChoice.com vs. 2012 Chevrolet Cruze Eco 4Dr Sedan | New Chevy Cruze Eco 4Dr Sedan 2012 Research at IntelliChoice.com shows the Prius Two also having a lower 5 year TCO.


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## nobog (Oct 25, 2011)

I have bad luck...

_FWIW, Consumer Reports (yes, I'm sure some of you are such huge fans of the publication... ) in the Feb '12 issue, rated the Cruze LS and 1LT as being the worst two values in small cars

EVERY_ car or truck I have owned has been rated the worse by CR. Man, now I find out that my 1LT is garbage.

Poor me...:grin:

Jim


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

nobog said:


> I have bad luck...
> 
> _FWIW, Consumer Reports (yes, I'm sure some of you are such huge fans of the publication... ) in the Feb '12 issue, rated the Cruze LS and 1LT as being the worst two values in small cars
> 
> ...


You must have owned a lot of GMs then. As far as I can tell CR absolutely hates GM.


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

cwerdna said:


> Yep. Per What that car really costs to own
> 
> Hammer Time Rewind: Depreciation Kills | The Truth About Cars also concurs that it's the largest cost.
> 
> ...


Well, if they didn't actually test the Eco, then it's not relevant to this particular list. Residual cost depends highly on how soon you plan to trade the car in. The longer you keep the car, the less the residual value is a factor and the more gas cost and maintenance become bigger factors.


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

obermd said:


> You must have owned a lot of GMs then. As far as I can tell CR absolutely hates GM.



I have found that CR's quality ratings are somewhat flawed because they don't adequately weight the severity of defects. You could lose as many points for a complicated rear windshield wiper knob as for a badly-shifting transmission.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cwerdna said:


> Yep. Per What that car really costs to own
> 
> 
> Hammer Time Rewind: Depreciation Kills | The Truth About Cars also concurs that it's the largest cost.
> ...


'

I would *highly* _recommend _that you do not mention Consumer Reports' review of the 2011 Cruze on this forum again. That's a recommendation. Should you continue, I will copy and paste the same information I posted in various other threads shining light on how absolutely stupid that review is and how flawed their testing methods are. Let me rephrase all of this: Consumer Reports' review of the 2011 Cruze is *stupid*, *flawed*, and most importantly, *irrelevant*. 

They're not fooling anyone here. All you're doing by mentioning Consumer Reports is lighting a fire under peoples' butts and they don't like that. 



Eugene_C said:


> Well, if they didn't actually test the Eco, then it's not relevant to this particular list.


Its not relevant at all. In fact, their fuel economy test included them romping hard on the Cruze to try to get the worst possible gas mileage. They achieved 17mpg and then published it as if it would be relevant to at least the majority of readers, which it isn't. Meanwhile, my DIC shows 49.7mpg with an average speed of ~32mph and 290 miles driven. I barely passed the halfway mark. CR can shove their survey-based review up their asses. 



Eugene_C said:


> I have found that CR's quality ratings are somewhat flawed because they don't adequately weight the severity of defects. You could lose as many points for a complicated rear windshield wiper knob as for a badly-shifting transmission.


BINGO!


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

What's resale value? If you look at my sig you'll see that unless there is an overriding reason for me to trade a car early I drive them until resale value is the junk yard price.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

obermd said:


> What's resale value? If you look at my sig you'll see that unless there is an overriding reason for me to trade a car early I drive them until resale value is the junk yard price.


Even so, this is not a Cobalt or a Cavalier. Its resale value will not follow the same patterns as that of those cars did.


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