# Amsoil Questions



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Tomko said:


> Andrei, I've never heard a bad thing about Amsoil and I think your breast cancer profit sharing is a noble gesture.
> 
> But I do have one nagging question about Amsoil. Why have they apparently never submitted their oils to General Motors for testing or certification?
> 
> ...


Bottom line is cost. Certifications are expensive, and Amsoil isn't in the business of unnecessary expenditures. The products speak for themselves. Amsoil oils are group 5+ oils that are on a completely different league from other oils. 

Amsoil performed the tests, but I haven't yet seen anyone refute them, even Mobil 1. Mobil 1's tests don't even include Amsoil, for a reason. They don't want to look bad. 

Amsoil doesn't mess around when it comes to oils. As noted, they are on a completely different level than any other oil manufacturer. You are free to review these results and research them to see if there are any conflicting results from other manufacturers, but I can guarantee you that you won't find them. Amsoil is the undisputed leader in synthetic oils. Again, I'm not just saying this because I'm a dealer. Rather, I became a dealer because of those facts. 

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Bottom line is cost. Certifications are expensive, and Amsoil isn't in the business of unnecessary expenditures. The products speak for themselves. Amsoil oils are group 5+ oils that are on a completely different league from other oils.
> 
> Amsoil performed the tests, but I haven't yet seen anyone refute them, even Mobil 1. Mobil 1's tests don't even include Amsoil, for a reason. They don't want to look bad.
> 
> ...


A few things don't sit well with me in your response:

1) First you explain in so many words that the certification is cost prohibitive for Amsoil. But then you present a report that would have cost Amsoil the same if not more money. It has been published many times that GM charges a $1,000 fee to register a product for dexos and $0.36 per gallon sold with the dexos logo. Is this really too costly for Amsoil?

2) Then I look at the report and I see that they did not compare the normal Mobil 1 that was registered against the previous and very strict GM4718M - they compare the Mobil 1 Extended Performance that could only be registered against the much weaker GM6094M. 

http://www.andersonperformance.net/oil_lists_02_2008.pdf

Why did Amsoil choose the weaker Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil to compare against?

3) This report has no authors, no names anywhere. While on the surface it looks impressive it is not an independently conducted objective test - as would occur in a dexos registration by GM. Is this really some elaborate promotional piece produced for the Amsoil faithful. 

In another thread you told me that you "discuss issues not on rhetoric, but on technical merits." 

Please pursue an answer to my question, in keeping with your above-noted approach, as to why Amsoil apparently has never submitted its oils to GM for their objective testing and registration.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Tomko said:


> A few things don't sit well with me in your response:
> 
> 1) First you explain in so many words that the certification is cost prohibitive for Amsoil. But then you present a report that would have cost Amsoil the same if not more money. It has been published many times that GM charges a $1,000 fee to register a product for dexos and $0.36 per gallon sold with the dexos logo. Is this really too costly for Amsoil?
> 
> ...


1. I am sure you can call Amsoil and get the exact answer from them yourself. You have been hesitant to take the advice and counsel of other experts on this board on this matter, so I think I can let you take it from here and dig up the information for yourself. Consider before you call them that on several million quarts of oil sold on an annual basis (if not more), $0.36 per quart is a significant expense. With 11 distribution centers in the US, Amsoil isn't a small company, and doesn't exactly advertise to the mass-market consumers. If I can make time for it on my lunch break tomorrow, I may call them as I have access to corporate numbers, but I am not making any promises. 

2. They compared what I can see as a more expensive and presumably higher quality product from Mobil 1. It is also similarly priced. Why they chose to compare that specific oil is beyond me, but the results are telling enough. I suspect it has a lot to do with the TBN number, as the standard Mobil 1 full synthetic would not be an apples to apples comparison. Furthermore, I cannot find any evidence that the EP oil is in fact weaker than the standard Mobil 1. Instead, it appears to be newer, thus having no purpose for undergoing an old certification. Of course, this is speculation, but what isn't speculation is that Mobil 1 Full Synthetic is not comparable to Amsoil Signature Series. 

3. If you wish to find authors, you may contact Amsoil. The report is linked directly from Amsoil's domain, so the authors for all relevant purposes is Amsoil. Given the reputation that Amsoil holds here in the US, I am fairly certain that they would not fabricate these tests for marketing purposes. Such a test would invite a myriad of lawsuits from competitors, all of whom have money to spare. 

While I did note that I prefer to discuss not on rhetoric but on technical merits, I did not promise that I would go far out of my way to produce the information you need. Quite frankly, experts in the automotive field have come to respect Amsoil as a superior lubricant for a few decades now. Might I recommend that you contact Blackstone Labs as an independent testing party and ask them their opinion on Amsoil. I would also refer you to bobistheoilguy.com. 

Here is an interesting test and comparison done by an independent owner for you to sink your teeth into:
Amsoil lab test results - Corvette Forum

My impression is that you view Amsoil as a "hype." I can assure you this is not the case. All Amsoil products deliver. They are very high quality group-5+ oils.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I would also recommend reviewing Post 35 in the following thread:

Amsoil hype? Lets find out! - Page 4

The bit at the bottom indicates that Mobil 1 Extended Performance is actually of higher quality synthetic stock than the standard Mobil 1 Synthetic oil, and that was derived from statements made by Mobil 1. It appears that Amsoil chose the correct oil to test against.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

One thing I also wanted to point out regarding Amsoil's warranty that I mentioned earlier. I wanted you to be aware of a guarantee that Amsoil makes, which I don't know that many oil manufacturers do.

Should a dealership attempt to deny your warranty claim on behalf of the oil used or the oil change interval used when in excess of the oil life monitor, Amsoil will run an oil testing analysis on your oil to determine if it was indeed the oil that caused the failure. Furthermore, Amsoil will intervene on your behalf with the dealer to provide them this information, and if the dealer continues to deny your warranty claim, Amsoil will, at their expense, replace the damaged components of your engine.

One very important tidbit is that this warranty guarantee also includes extended drain intervals.

As quoted by Amsoil:


> All of the vehicle OEMs in the U.S. have agreed that a warranty cannot be denied because a customer was using any brand of motor oil at any length drain interval unless an engine failure was directly attributable to the oil or drain interval. For example, if your radio, power steering unit, air conditioner, etc. broke down, they could not void the warranty that covers those items because you were changing your engine oil at extended drain intervals. If it is not an oil related failure, they cannot void the warranty. The law supports this position.


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## SunnyinHollister (Mar 17, 2011)

Tomko said:


> A few things don't sit well with me in your response:
> 
> 1) First you explain in so many words that the certification is cost prohibitive for Amsoil. But then you present a report that would have cost Amsoil the same if not more money. It has been published many times that GM charges a $1,000 fee to register a product for dexos and $0.36 per gallon sold with the dexos logo. Is this really too costly for Amsoil?
> 
> ...


GM requires a fee per quart for the Dexos certification. There are other oil companies out there that are refusing to pay this. After all, more than 80% of the vehicles sold do not require Dexos. Why pay a fee on all of your product when only a small percentage is asking for that requirement?

Mobil 1 EP is Mobil's flagship product line here in the US. 

I'm not an Amsoil fanboy, but they do have good products. I'm not sure if the cost benefit is there in this application though. When I run out of the cheap synthetic I've purchased on sale, I'll take a look at it again at that time.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> 1. I am sure you can call Amsoil and get the exact answer from them yourself.
> ...
> I think I can let you take it from here and dig up the information for yourself.


Andrei, I'm asking you because you've posted several times on this thread that you're here to answer our questions about Amsoil. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> You have been hesitant to take the advice and counsel of other experts on this board on this matter...


With respect, none of us here are experts on motor oil for use on our RPO LUZ engine or the engine itself. The engine has only been available on the retail market for three months. None of us can claim anything but a cursory knowledge of the engine. An expert can give sworn testimony to the court that results in precedent setting legal cases and large financial settlements. Not small claims court. I am an expert in my respective (non-automotive) field and this type of testimony is a part of what I am paid for. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> Consider before you call them that on several million quarts of oil sold on an annual basis (if not more), $0.36 per quart is a significant expense.


As I've posted here and several other threads the fee for use of the dexos logo is $0.36 per gallon. That works out to $0.09 a quart. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> If I can make time for it on my lunch break tomorrow, I may call them as I have access to corporate numbers, but I am not making any promises.


Thank you. No promises or timeline needed. Just simply an honest effort to get a straightforward answer from someone who isn't going to give an 'Amsoil is the best so we don't have to submit to third party manufacturing testing' type of answer. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> 2. They compared what I can see as a more expensive and presumably higher quality product from Mobil 1.
> ...
> Furthermore, I cannot find any evidence that the EP oil is in fact weaker than the standard Mobil u1.


Now I'm afraid you've been caught up in marketing hype. 

The evidence is right here:

http://www.andersonperformance.net/oil_lists_02_2008.pdf

As tested by GM only regular Mobil 1 achieved registration at the strict GM4718M specification for synthetic oil. 

Under the same testing regime Mobil 1 Extended Performance could only achieve the GM6094M specification for non-synthetic oil. 

It's there in black and white: regular Mobil 1 is a higher performing motor oil than Mobil 1 Extended Performance. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> 3. If you wish to find authors, you may contact Amsoil. The report is linked directly from Amsoil's domain, so the authors for all relevant purposes is Amsoil.


Including the names of those responsible for the report and its conclusions would elevate the status of this report from being a marketing piece to something of an objective, defendable, repeatable study. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> Might I recommend that you contact Blackstone Labs as an independent testing party and ask them their opinion on Amsoil. I would also refer you to bobistheoilguy.com.
> ...
> My impression is that you view Amsoil as a "hype." I can assure you this is not the case.


Then I have given you the wrong impression. 

Please re-read my posts. I've said repeatedly that I've never heard anything bad about Amsoil. 

I am asking very simple and straightforward questions. I'm seeking similar answers. Not marketing answers. Factual answers. 

I am bringing the same level of objective scrutiny that I would apply to my daughter if she came home at 3:00 AM. Just give me the facts - not the emotions - so that I can make a fully informed and reasoned decision. That's all. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> All Amsoil products deliver. They are very high quality group-5+ oils.


Andrei, please read this link that you provided. 

Amsoil hype? Lets find out! - Page 4

It clearly identifies some Amsoil products as group III and other Amsoil products as group IV 

I have no no idea what a "group-5+" is, but that now sounds like marketing hype to me.

*
In Conclusion:

Why has Amsoil apparently never submitted its oils to GM for third party testing and registration against GM6094M, GM4718M, dexos1 or dexos2?
*


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

SunnyinHollister said:


> GM requires a fee per quart for the Dexos certification. There are other oil companies out there that are refusing to pay this.


$1,000 for certification and $0.09 per quart sold with the dexos logo. 

Besides the boutique brands and fly by nighters, Valvoline is the only mainstream one I can think of. But none of them are claiming to be the holy grail of synthetics. 



SunnyinHollister said:


> Mobil 1 EP is Mobil's flagship product line here in the US.


Marketing hype. 

As I've proven on this thread, with third party testing by GM, regular Mobil 1 outperforms Mobil 1 Extended Performance.


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## SunnyinHollister (Mar 17, 2011)

Tomko said:


> $1,000 for certification and $0.09 per quart sold with the dexos logo.
> 
> Besides the boutique brands and fly by nighters, Valvoline is the only mainstream one I can think of. But none of them are claiming to be the holy grail of synthetics.
> 
> ...


The current flavor of M1 EP meets Dexos1 which supersedes *GM4718M. *I just looked at the M1 website and it does show M1 EP as meeting the GM4718M quality level. The list you are referencing is an old list. There was another list that came out in 2009 that also listed 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30:

http://ls1tuningguide.com/files/freefiles/gm_approved_engine_oils.pdf

Note they are not listing the 0W-20/0W-30 as AFE on the list. M1 EP never failed the GM4718M certification, it was just never submitted for it when that list came out. Certifications cost money. And what third party labratory testing was performed to which ILSAC test that showed M1 EP was inferior to the regular M1? I must have missed that one. As far as a company not wiling to pay GM's per quart extortion fee I'm fine with that.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Was that per qt fee worldwide or just sales in the great states of 'merica? At the end of the day if it exceeds, I'm fine with that. Businesses are in business to make money, who knows what the price would be if they got the logo on the bottle? M1 EP "specifically made for Walmart" is like almost $30 for the 5 qt now. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

SunnyinHollister said:


> The current flavor of M1 EP meets Dexos1 which supersedes *GM4718M. *I just looked at the M1 website and it does show M1 EP as meeting the GM4718M quality level. The list you are referencing is an old list. There was another list that came out in 2009 that also listed 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, and 10W-30:
> 
> http://ls1tuningguide.com/files/freefiles/gm_approved_engine_oils.pdf
> 
> Note they are not listing the 0W-20/0W-30 as AFE on the list. M1 EP never failed the GM4718M certification, it was just never submitted for it when that list came out. Certifications cost money. And what third party labratory testing was performed to which ILSAC test that showed M1 EP was inferior to the regular M1? I must have missed that one. As far as a company not wiling to pay GM's per quart extortion fee I'm fine with that.


Great find for that 2009 registration list. It clearly indicates that M1 EP was not registered by GM for GM4718M. 

dexos1 did in fact supersede GM6094M and GM4718M, but it is less demanding than GM4718M was. 

Mobil has a long-standing factory fill arrangement with GM going back to the '90s with Corvette and '00s with Cadillac. Mobil would not have been financially prevented from submitting M1 EP for GM4718M and may very well have. But that still doesn't mean that GM recognized it as such. 

As as we have seen, oil marketers can print whatever they want on their bottles or literature. It just doesn't mean that the testing body actually recognizes it as such. Just ask Castrol who took it in the @$$ from GM from claiming GTX met the GM6094M standard when it did not. 

The licensing of the dexos logo is intended to stop that kind of marketing manipulation. If it has the logo it's good to go. If not then it's wide open to interpretation as we've seen in our vigorous discussions. 

Five plus years ago there were people on the Corvette boards who got sucked into the M1 EP hype. But they damaged their engines and GM said SOL because it was not a registered GM4718M oil as required.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I see a break in logic here that doesn't make sense to me. 

First you explain how Amsoil doesn't want to spend the $1,000 to register its product. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> Bottom line is cost. Certifications are expensive, and Amsoil isn't in the business of unnecessary expenditures.


But then you tell us that if anything goes wrong Amsoil will lawyer up against the dealership and pay for our repair if it's Amsoil-related. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> Should a dealership attempt to deny your warranty claim on behalf of the oil used or the oil change interval used when in excess of the oil life monitor, Amsoil will run an oil testing analysis on your oil to determine if it was indeed the oil that caused the failure. Furthermore, Amsoil will intervene on your behalf with the dealer to provide them this information, and if the dealer continues to deny your warranty claim, Amsoil will, at their expense, replace the damaged components of your engine.


How can such a cost conscious company not invest $1,000 to register their product with GM - but if something goes wrong they'll be there to back us up and cover the repair if at fault?

Surely just one such event would cost well in excess of $1,000. 

Furthermore, where is the oil that was drained out of the crankcase by the dealership? Likely days ago, when the fit hit the shan for the vehicle owner, it went into the waste oil, mixing with everyone else that week. So no one can prove anything about the oil coming out of the crankcase per se. They can only prove engine damage. It now becomes your word and wallet against GM and whoever marketed that oil.


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## SunnyinHollister (Mar 17, 2011)

I tried finding Corvette engine damage due to M1 EP on the internet but nothing came up. Can you post a link to it? The current M1 EP web page says it meets this standard and is Dexos 1 approved. The wear component of the Dexos 1 spec is a very tough spec and may exceed the GM 4718M spec. It also has better deposit control.

Where we disagree is on the extortion fees GM is charging. The $1000 fee is an annual licensing fee on top of the per quart fees. This is per product as I understand it. On top of that is the cost for the certification process. I can see where Valvoline is coming from. What if Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, and Honda all come out with their own oil specs that require similar extortion fees to be paid? At that point you would be paying $.45 per quart just in royalties. I think GM would be better off charging a flat annual fee of $10k that would cover the sampling program for that product.

Dexos 1 IS a good spec. It exceeds the SN/GF5 specs and you can use it with confidence. But I have no issues with using a premium oil that is not licensed like Pennzoil Ultra, Amsoil Signature Series, or Redline.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Let's keep extensive discussion out of my for-sale thread, ok? My offer to answer questions was not intended to be an open invitation to require a validation of the product I am selling and a lengthy debate on its merits. I am working on a new reply in the meantime.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I have made it clear that I can answer questions and that I prefer to debate on technical merits instead instead of rhetoric, but it appears that my offer to provide information has been abused. I have noted and it should be well known that I don't have an unlimited amount of time. While I will answer questions, that statement was not an open invitation to take hours out of my day to do something you are perfectly capable of doing on your own, should you be truly interested in obtaining the information you claim to want. You could do the research yourself as I would, call Amsoil yourself as I would, and perhaps even call Blackstone labs for their own opinion if you wanted an opinion on oils. BITOG (www.bobistheoilguy.com) would be an invaluable resource for you as well if your true motive is to quell concerns about Amsoil. 

Your speculations as to why a certain action was taken as opposed to another action serves only as an attempt to undermine the claims I have made regarding this oil. It has unclear to me whether your intention was to get answers or question the validity of my claims. Now that's all well and good and I'll generally humor people as time allows, until you continue to do so in my for sale thread for Amsoil. Regardless of your perception of a given product, I would hardly call it tactful. I have since split this topic so that discussion can continue for your own benefit.

You ask questions regarding breaks in logic that I believe can be easily refuted with nothing more than speculation. For example, I tell you that certifications are expensive. You conveniently leave out the cost per quart or gallon, and mention only the $1,000 cost. If I may pose questions, why did you neglect that important detail? You then use that statement to attempt to discredit the next, referring to Amsoil's warranty period. Do you want me to tell you how this makes sense? This makes sense because there haven't been any significant oil-related engine failures in decades. It is an extremely uncommon occurrence, and an occurrence that is rendered increasingly rarer through the use of a high quality synthetic. With respect to the cost aspect, consider that Amsoil chooses to use a MLM dealer network instead of a traditional retail network to sell their products for the sole purpose of reducing costs. 

Your "questions" seem to have a pretty consistent tone which, despite your statements, implies that this oil is a hype, of poor quality, or otherwise that it should be avoided until it is proven to you that claims are correct. By choosing not to provide your own data or do your own research, you put me in a rather uncomfortable situation. I am selling a product for the benefit of this forum, and your posts and questions indicate that in addition to providing a considerable discount, I should also take the time to research, make phone calls, and provide data to satisfy your need for the proof that most of the automotive industry has long understood to be unnecessary. 

As I have had very little free time in the past few weeks and did not call Amsoil on my lunch break today, I will leave you with the following notes (which, conveniently, were provided by google).

A bit about Amsoil's history:
- First to develop an API-rated 100 percent synthetic motor oil.
- First to introduce the concept of "extended drain intervals" with a recommended 25,000-mile/1-year drain interval.
- First U.S. company to utilize the NOACK volatility test as a standard of performance excellence.
- First to produce synthetic motor oils for diesel engines, racing engines, turbo and marine engines.
- First to introduce synthetic oils that legitimately contribute to improving fuel efficiency.
- First to manufacture synthetic gear lube for automotive use.
- First to manufacture a 100:1 pre-mix synthetic 2-cycle oil.
- First to manufacture a synthetic automatic transmission fluid for automotive use.

If they are the first, what are other oil companies? I can give you a hint; people don't flock to copy bad ideas. 

As for the data you require, I will see what I can do, but do not be under the assumption that you cannot find much of it yourself.


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## anomalophobe (Sep 27, 2013)

For God's sake, what is the obsession with oil on this forum??? Buy what's good for you, what you believe in . . . if you need _*proof*_, find it yourself - only YOU will be able to convince yourself of "the facts." I think every one of you is capable of finding ALL the answers you need, especially given the fact that you all are throwing around these manufacturer's specs and analyses like they're hot potatoes.

However, if you need to be _*sold*_, then, by all means, keep talking - after all, you don't want to be considered an easy sale, do you?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

anomalophobe said:


> For God's sake, what is the obsession with oil on this forum??? Buy what's good for you, what you believe in . . . if you need _*proof*_, find it yourself - only YOU will be able to convince yourself of "the facts." I think every one of you is capable of finding ALL the answers you need, especially given the fact that you all are throwing around these manufacturer's specs and analyses like they're hot potatoes.
> 
> However, if you need to be _*sold*_, then, by all means, keep talking - after all, you don't want to be considered an easy sale, do you?


Thank you. 

I became an Amsoil dealer because the oil practically sells itself. If I have to spend hours doing research, talking to Amsoil on the phone, and calling up labs to get reports on the oils just to satisfy one person's doubts or concerns, it isn't exactly a profitable use of my time.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Clearly Amsoil has been a leader in synthetic oils. 

Without Amsoil competing with the 'big' oil companies it's doubtful that the marketplace would have as good of a product as it does today. 

I've heard for ~20 years that Amsoil was the best. I've never heard a bad thing about Amsoil. 

My question is simple: Why has Amsoil apparently never submitted its oils to General Motors for third party testing and registration against GM6094M, GM4718M, dexos1 or dexos2?

This question is directed at the corporate decision makers at Amsoil. It is not being addressed to folks affiliated trough the sales and distribution end of things. 

I will consider any response citing undue financial hardship; or, indisputable leadership in lubricates, as non-answers.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

It's about the money. dexos1 certification costs money up-front, and an on-going royalty. Amsoil would rather pay lawyers as needed than GM constantly. Probably cheaper that way, even if they eat the cost of an engine or two a year. Add in the marketing value of Amsoil pulling through and making a happy customer, and I can see why they do what they do. 

Like everything else, follow the money.


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## mcg75 (Mar 5, 2012)

Not exactly sure what answer you are looking for Tomko. Despite the fact that that there is a lot of hype and BS from the Amsoil marketing department testing such as the 4 ball wear test, there have been hundreds if not thousands of truly independent tests done at bitog that prove Amsoil signature series is the real deal. 

We stock Amsoil in the shop. Mostly OE series for use on new cars with 0w20 requirements and 5w40 euro for the VW, BMW etc that we get. 

Even though you don't want to hear it. It comes down to money on the licencing. Amsoil isn't the only one not paying GM for a dexos licence. And why will they offer to pay damages rather than licence fees, simply because GM would never be able to pin down an engine failure to oil directly being the cause if lawyers got involved.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Tomko said:


> Clearly Amsoil has been a leader in synthetic oils.
> 
> Without Amsoil competing with the 'big' oil companies it's doubtful that the marketplace would have as good of a product as it does today.
> 
> ...


I already told you. As sciphi noted, it's about the money, but you didn't accept that answer and made reasons as to why it doesn't make sense in your mind. Therefore, I told you, in more complex words, the following:

*Go ask them yourself. *

I am neither their spokesperson nor their chief executive. You have directed all of these questions toward me and I have answered them to the best of my ability. Your next stop should be Amsoil's corporate phone line, where I suspect you will receive a similar if not identical answer.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

anomalophobe said:


> For God's sake, what is the obsession with oil on this forum??? Buy what's good for you, what you believe in . . . if you need _*proof*_, find it yourself - only YOU will be able to convince yourself of "the facts." I think every one of you is capable of finding ALL the answers you need, especially given the fact that you all are throwing around these manufacturer's specs and analyses like they're hot potatoes.
> 
> However, if you need to be _*sold*_, then, by all means, keep talking - after all, you don't want to be considered an easy sale, do you?




ive got ~200,000 miles each on 3 current vehicles running dept store 5w30 dino oil and fram filters, changing the oil and filter once a yr, regardless of miles, so i dunno what to do with this new car


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

boraz said:


> ive got ~200,000 miles each on 3 current vehicles running dept store 5w30 dino oil and fram filters, changing the oil and filter once a yr, regardless of miles, so i dunno what to do with this new car


Well this isn't your typical car. It has a turbo that will cook dino oil and most certainly void your warranty in short order. GM requires a dexos1 approved oil, which will be a synthetic blend or greater. Even GM has understood that standard dino oil simply won't cut it. The heat produced by the turbo is the biggest deal. 
The factory oil will be good for 6,000 miles but no more. A full synthetic oil will be good to 8,000-10,000 depending on driving conditions, although we recommend changing it sooner than his 10k. The Amsoil XL and SS oil I sell is good for 10k miles and beyond. 

Fram filters are poorly made. Many studies have been done to demonstrate that. There are far better filters out there, but this is a quick overview for you.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

boraz said:


> ive got ~200,000 miles each on 3 current vehicles running dept store 5w30 dino oil and fram filters, changing the oil and filter once a yr, regardless of miles, so i dunno what to do with this new car


Wow, that's impressive!

*Oil*

Your diesel requires a *dexos2 *oil at the *5W30 *viscosity. 

Using a dexos1 oil, as some have recommended, will ruin the emissions equipment on your diesel and invalidate your warranty. 

At this time I have not seen a department store oil with the dexos2 logo at the 5W30 viscosity. 

Pretty much everyone is down on the AC Delco oil because it is a synthetic blend. But it seems to be the most widely available dexos2 registered oil at the required 5W30 viscosity. 

Based on other diesel owners, and my own experience, the oil life monitor in the diesel will call for an oil change every 7,500 miles / 12,000 km. The consensus is that this is the the max life possible out of any semi-synthetic oil. 

Following the oil life monitor, and using the AC Delco oil, will see you safely through to 100,000 mile / 160,000 km. Beyond that it's a gamble. That's why many of us are switching now to a full synthetic to mitigate the risk of troubles beyond that mileage. 

*Oil Filter*

Fram is often thought of poorly, but their Xtended Guard model does test well. As demonstrated by objective, third party testing, the best oil filters are from Amsoil and Royal Purple. K&N is now sourcing its oil filters from Asia and so their test results are no longer deemed representative of the current product. 

You can read the testing here:

Oil Filter Comparison Study - GM Truck Central

Unfortunately GM appears to be the only source of diesel oil filters at this time. 

*Air Filter*

Objective, third party, testing of air filters demonstrates that the best are from Amsoil. The stock AC Delco tests reasonably well and is a no risk option. However, based on testing, K&N air filters should be avoided. It's pretty much a no-brainier that anyone wanting to improve their air filtration over the stock AC Delco should go with Amsoil. 

You can read the testing here:

Air Filter Comparison Study - GM Truck Central


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

There is a clear consensus that Amsoil has never sent its oils to GM for third party testing and registration against the dexos1 or dexos2 standards. 

So why is Amsoil being marketed as "DEXOS1 Approved" and who gave this approval?


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## Erastimus (Feb 9, 2012)

PAO (polyalphaolefin) base stocks (which are created by chemical reactions) are superior in the world of synthetics. The jet planes that the founder of AMS Oil flew back in the 1960's were lubricated with PAO base stock synthetics. It is quite clear to me that AMS Oil has joined all the other synthetic manufacturers in using highly refined parafinnic (dinosaur or hydrocarbon, as we say) base stocks, so there is no advantage to using AMS Oil. If anyone has information that AMS Oil is still strictly PAO based, I would stand corrected.


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## cruze01 (Mar 25, 2011)

Bottom Line: Its not worth an argument! Both are great oils. Use of either one will protect your Cruze for many thousands of miles to come! If you want to see real life results go to bobistheoilguy.com and search the UOA threads for AMSOIL and M1. You will see that they are both very comparable on the results. I do believe that AMSOIL is a step above the rest but the test results IMO don't warrant the extra cost.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Erastimus said:


> PAO (polyalphaolefin) base stocks (which are created by chemical reactions) are superior in the world of synthetics. The jet planes that the founder of AMS Oil flew back in the 1960's were lubricated with PAO base stock synthetics. It is quite clear to me that AMS Oil has joined all the other synthetic manufacturers in using highly refined parafinnic (dinosaur or hydrocarbon, as we say) base stocks, so there is no advantage to using AMS Oil. If anyone has information that AMS Oil is still strictly PAO based, I would stand corrected.


All oil companies are very secretive regarding the exact combination of base stocks they use in oils, and anyone who tells you that they are strictly a PAO oil is pulling your leg and trying you to sell you into the mentality that theirs is superior. Please demonstrate exactly how it is quite clear to you that they have "joined the rest" and that that there is no advantage (or as you insinuated, no difference) and how you also came to the conclusion that all PAO base stocks are superior. 

The truth is that many lubricants use a combination of base stocks. Some may use a combination of PAO and Ester oils to achieve the desired characteristics. There are also very poor quality PAO stocks and very high quality PAO stocks. Therefore, it is impossible to group specific oils and interpret their "quality" by referring to base stocks alone as I have seen people trying to do. It's not quite that simple and a manufacturer won't divulge their engineering secrets.

Amsoil does not insist on a specific base stock bit a specific set of performance parameters. They use the highest quality PAO, Ester, and Group 3 oils to produce the desired result, hence the price tag. In short, what matters is not the base stock or combination of base stocks, but the quality of the final product. Amsoil delivers and always has. This brings me to my next point; certifications. 

Certifications are in fact NOT required by manufacturers or warranty claims. GM says you should use Dexos but nowhere does it say that your use of any other oil that is not Dexos approved will void your warranty should a failure occur. I invite anyone to prove this wrong with hard documentation. The Magnuson-Moss act of 1975 prevents original equipment manufacturers from placing conditions warranties attached to any product is service identified by the brand unless that service is free of charge. Why do you think tire change places include free tire rotations? This law also includes the extending of oil change intervals past the oil life monitor with an extended life oil so long as it is demonstrated that, at the time of failure, the oil was not responsible for the failure. If the oil didn't cause the problem, the warranty cannot be voided, regardless of what oil you used or how long it was in there. Your dealer may try to scare you into believing otherwise, but the law is very clear on this and GM is very careful with their documentation. Amsoil has and will take manufacturers to court over that. What Amsoil needs to prove is that the oil you used meets or exceeds the specifications set forth by that certification. The rest is just a label. 

It is worth noting that Amsoil advertises compatibility with or exceeding of certifications on their website and data sheets for their oils. This can only be done legally if their oils actually meet that specification. They would suffer massive legal ramifications if they claim to meet the requirements for Dexos oils and in fact do not. The company that was 1st in synthetics is not that stupid. 

Amsoil doesn't certify because they are not required to and also because, like the base stocks, certification groups oils into specific "quality tiers" that are quite misleading. For example, if Amsoil Signature Series is stocked next to Pennzoil synthetic blend and both meet the Dexos requirements, how does your average Joe know what the difference is?

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## jsusanka (Jan 31, 2011)

Tomko said:


> Andrei, I've never heard a bad thing about Amsoil and I think your breast cancer profit sharing is a noble gesture.
> 
> But I do have one nagging question about Amsoil. Why have they apparently never submitted their oils to General Motors for testing or certification?
> 
> ...



Why should they? Their oil is better than any dexos oil so why should they pay GM so they can put a label on their product that they developed and GM had nothing to do with developing. 

Microsoft pulls the same licensing crud in the IT world and it is a broken business model and nothing other than criminal IMO. 

The product blows away any dexos certification so why add cost to their customers just so GM can put their label on something that isn't even their product and had nothing to do with developing.


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

They do not have to pony up to GM. never did and never will ..what does Independent 
Mean ?


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

In this thread:

1) User wants to give Amsoil dealer rep a hard time
2) Dealer rep (Andrei) to his best of ability has tried to answer everything
3) User is still not satisfied with any answer

In Psychology i have learned that there are people that want to discuss a subject. Then there is people that want to argue the subject. Tomko, Andrei has tried his best to answer your questions, the answers are not different. They are the same. everytime... He is a real busy guy, he has a full time job, he works on enclosures, he now works as an Amsoil dealer AND he has a wife who is also pregnant. 

Call Amsoil or email them and post the results here  get to the bottom of it yourself, but i think Andrei has his hands full at the moment.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Just a a quick review of where we're at. 

Here is my question:



Tomko said:


> Why has Amsoil apparently never submitted its oils to General Motors for third party testing and registration against GM6094M, GM4718M, dexos1 or dexos2?
> 
> This question is directed at the corporate decision makers at Amsoil. It is not being addressed to folks affiliated trough the sales and distribution end of things.
> 
> I will consider any response citing undue financial hardship; or, indisputable leadership in lubricates, as non-answers.


Here are the answers received to date. 

Financial:



XtremeRevolution said:


> Bottom line is cost. Certifications are expensive, and Amsoil isn't in the business of unnecessary expenditures.





sciphi said:


> It's about the money. dexos1 certification costs money up-front, and an on-going royalty. Amsoil would rather pay lawyers as needed than GM constantly. Probably cheaper that way, even if they eat the cost of an engine or two a year.
> 
> Like everything else, follow the money.





mcg75 said:


> It comes down to money on the licencing. Amsoil isn't the only one not paying GM for a dexos licence. And why will they offer to pay damages rather than licence fees, simply because GM would never be able to pin down an engine failure to oil directly being the cause if lawyers got involved.





XtremeRevolution said:


> I already told you. As sciphi noted, it's about the money...


Amsoil's Indisputable Leadership:



XtremeRevolution said:


> The products speak for themselves. Amsoil oils ... are on a completely different league from other oils.





jsusanka said:


> Why should they? Their oil is better than any dexos oil...


No Legal Requirement:



XtremeRevolution said:


> Amsoil doesn't certify because they are not required to...





brian v said:


> They do not have to pony up to GM. never did and never will...


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

iKermit said:


> Andrei has tried his best to answer your questions, the answers are not different. They are the same. everytime... He is a real busy guy, he has a full time job, he works on enclosures, he now works as an Amsoil dealer AND he has a wife who is also pregnant.


Let me be clear: I am not targeting Andrei. 

I rather like Andrei and have great respect for the work he does. For proof please check my previous thread regarding Andrei's coming baby. Check my posts defending Andrei when his moderator decisions came under attack. Check the likes I've left for his posts. If I wanted an enclosure I'd be buying one of his because I believe that he has rigorous personal standards and takes pride in his work. 

Furthermore, read my questions. You'll see that they never expected that Andrei would know the answer. These decisions on certification are made by corporate people. Not Andrei. That is who should be answering. 

In conclusion, Andrei and I are similar in that we want the facts - not rhetoric. That's all I've asked for.

As evidence of my intent I will post no further on this thread.


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

Tom,

I am not saying you are being disrespectful. I am stating that he has given you all the answers, and he already directed you towards Amsoil yourself to figure out. What you are looking for is not common knowledge, and you would need to climb up the corporate latter to find out and good luck. If Andrei calls Amsoil, they will just think he is trying to give them bad PR and he will lose rights to sell the product. At this point, we are at a standstill with the question since none of the partys want to dig further.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iKermit said:


> Tom,
> 
> I am not saying you are being disrespectful. I am stating that he has given you all the answers, and he already directed you towards Amsoil yourself to figure out. What you are looking for is not common knowledge, and you would need to climb up the corporate latter to find out and good luck. If Andrei calls Amsoil, they will just think he is trying to give them bad PR and he will lose rights to sell the product. At this point, we are at a standstill with the question since none of the partys want to dig further.


The last post I made was immediately following a call I made to Amsoil to discuss oil base stocks and certifications. What I posted is as what Amsoil's technical team relayed to me with a bit of my own elaboration. I learned something in the process and discovered that my speculations were only partially correct, but that the primary reason for not certifying is because there was no need for it. 

It would appear that GM has attempted to bully oil makers into paying for certifications for oils that in fact are not necessary to meet the legal requirements of warranty eligibility. I used the word bully due to the way dealers have responded to the use of non-certified oils despite being privately owned, and the simple fact that these certifications also carry a license that must be paid for.

I stand in protest of that notion. One should not be required to pay a fee on each gallon sold in order for GM to accept your oil for use in their vehicle. One should not have to pay a royalty simply to prove that their oil meets or exceeds the requirements for the certifications. If GM's primary concern with the dexos certifications was ensuring that owners follow a minimum standard of oil quality, they would not be charging companies an exorbitant fee that would ultimately increase the cost of oil changes for us. 

This matter of principle adds to a growing list of reasons why I will be using exclusively Amsoil. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

And that is why i avoid dealerships becuase of non sense like that.


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## The_Madcat (Oct 6, 2012)

Tomko,

I think we have taken this as far as we can right now, I don't see much more productivity coming from this thread. If you do contact AMSoil, please share your findings here and we can continue.


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## jsusanka (Jan 31, 2011)

Can you imagine how much a good oil would cost if every car manufacturer made every oil manufacturer pay fees and licensing costs so their oil can be used in their cars. 

That would be insane. I believe that is why there are industry standards all oil manufacturers must meet. 

I think the dexos certification has something to do with the ash content. Probably something with the sodium valves but since I am no chemist and it is all secret because nobody lets their specs out unless you pay a fee we will never know and the whole conversation is moot.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jsusanka said:


> Can you imagine how much a good oil would cost if every car manufacturer made every oil manufacturer pay fees and licensing costs so their oil can be used in their cars.
> 
> That would be insane. I believe that is why there are industry standards all oil manufacturers must meet.
> 
> I think the dexos certification has something to do with the ash content. Probably something with the sodium valves but since I am no chemist and it is all secret because nobody lets their specs out unless you pay a fee we will never know and the whole conversation is moot.


For Dexos2, yes, it is designed for GM's diesel engines. However, there is no secret sauce in there that is designed to work specifically for GM's diesel engines, which is why other oils can meet the Dexos2 specification.


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Tomko have you researched why Valvoline has chosen not to participate with Gm 's Licensing requirements ? 
I am pretty sure you will find enough information behind those decisions by Corporate
Level analisis that determine they're choices in the matter behind nonparticipation !


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## cruze01 (Mar 25, 2011)

Check out this site. Don't know who done it or the testing but its good info if accurate.

Comparative Motor Oil Testing


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

cruze01 said:


> Check out this site. Don't know who done it or the testing but its good info if accurate.
> 
> Comparative Motor Oil Testing


an amsoil dealer.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cruze01 said:


> Check out this site. Don't know who done it or the testing but its good info if accurate.
> 
> Comparative Motor Oil Testing


Those charts were taken directly from Amsoil's published tests, so that entire website is being run by an Amsoil dealer.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Tomko said:


> Let me be clear: I am not targeting Andrei.
> 
> I rather like Andrei and have great respect for the work he does. For proof please check my previous thread regarding Andrei's coming baby. Check my posts defending Andrei when his moderator decisions came under attack. Check the likes I've left for his posts. If I wanted an enclosure I'd be buying one of his because I believe that he has rigorous personal standards and takes pride in his work.
> 
> ...


I invite you to post any additional questions you might have. I will do my best to research the answers as time allows.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Thank you Andrei for inviting me back to this thread. 

In my previous post I explained how I did not hold a bias against you. But on reflection I think I should also articulate that I don't carry a bias against Amsoil. 

For the past 33 years fully 25% of my waking hours has been dedicated to the automotive world. It is my personal passion and as a life-long learner I scoured every resource I could to be more and better informed. Quite a feat given that Google came on line 16 years ago and Al Gore "invented" the Internet only four years before that. In my time I have grown increasingly reliant on standards and testing such as from the SAE and dismissive of marketing ploys cooked up by people who've never spun a wrench in their lives or 'mechanics' who spread their own brand of old wives' tales. 

Marketing claims tend to first create anxieties and then sell their product as the way to soothe those same anxieties. Objective standards do neither. They simply publish a goal and then let products be assessed against that goal. 'Mechanics' are not engineers trained in objective measurement, and most are not even licensed mechanics whom are the professional backbone of the trade. 

Given my body of experience I have never heard anyone say a bad word about Amsoil products. 

In fact Amsoil is regarded as the silver bullet of lubricants. That is if you've got a lubricant problem, and you have only one shot at addressing it, the consensus is that Amsoil is the way to go. 

This has been born out by Cruze-Talk members with manual transmission woes mitigated by Amsoil. 

However, a few days ago I was in the franchise of a large national retail chain looking at the vast array of oils for sale. There must have been 50 on the wall, including some from Amsoil. I looked at two offerings from Amsoil and discovered that neither carried an API certification. This shocked me and I examined the bottles to make sure it wasn't hidden somewhere - but it wasn't. My conclusion was that Amsoil simply doesn't do certifications of any kind. If anyone knows differently, or can find out Amsoil's corporate reasoning, please post it in these pages. 

What is a fact is that Andrei is offering smoking hot pricing on Amsoil to our membership when compared to retail. And I hope he can do the same for Amsoil's objectively tested, top-of-the-class, air and oil filters.


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## jsusanka (Jan 31, 2011)

AMSOIL and API Licensing Certification&Warranty

found this doing a google search and this should explain everything i guess.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

jsusanka said:


> AMSOIL and API Licensing Certification&Warranty
> 
> found this doing a google search and this should explain everything i guess.


Outstanding find!

This goes a long way to resolving my API question and part of the way on dexos registration. 

If anyone finds anything more please post it in this thread. But at this point I'm thinking that the best way would be for me to have a five minute discussion with Dan Peterson who authored most of that piece.


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

iKermit said:


> In this thread:
> 
> 1) User wants to give Amsoil dealer rep a hard time
> 2) Dealer rep (Andrei) to his best of ability has tried to answer everything
> ...


While i did PM Tomko about this. I just wanted to say:

Sorry if this came out offensive, i did not know how to explain myself, and took the insistence of your messages totally wrong. So i do apologize Tomko, and keep up the good work around the forums, you are one very knowledgeable dude.


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