# With out without Pioneer audio system...?!?



## BladeOfAnduril (Apr 27, 2012)

Ways to tell:

1. Pioneer labels on door speaker grills. 
2. Speaker in center of dash instead of storage nook. 
3. Two 6x9 speakers on rear deck (can be seen from inside of trunk). If all you have are empty speaker holes, you don't have the pioneer system. 

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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

Ok. So what upgrades should I consider for $1000 top?

Is this a good one?

Pioneer Stage 4 TS-C172PRS PRS Series 6-3/4" component speaker system — also fit 6-1/2" openings at Crutchfield.com

I mostly like rock, heavy and classic stuff, no hip hop or rap fan here.

Thanks


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

Now that I think about it, it may not be what I need. Can bass drivers be added in the back?


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## BladeOfAnduril (Apr 27, 2012)

Someone else will need to chime in. I don't know much about auto sound systems. That's why I ordered my Cruze with the Pioneer system. 

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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> Now that I think about it, it may not be what I need. Can bass drivers be added in the back?


Yes and no. They can indeed be added to the stock locations, but you may need a mounting bracket, and you'll have to amplify them externally anyway. Performance will be poor and they won't sound that great. If you're going to go through the trouble, you'll get much better sound quality with a dedicated subwoofer. I can help you there as I design and build very good subwoofer boxes (those who I've built them for can vouch for that). 

For front components, those Pioneers look nice, but do you really want to spend $900 on front speakers?

What's your total budget, and what are you looking for as far as sound quality? Keep in mind that even if you do upgrade the front speakers, they will need to be amplified externally. The stock head unit doesn't have enough power.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

I am looking to keep it under $1000 as much as I can. I spend close to 8 or 9 hours total in my car every week, including 7 or 8 commuting.

Something with quite a bit of bass is what I am looking for. I want to keep the regular radio. No issue with external amplifiers.

Thanks


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> I am looking to keep it under $1000 as much as I can. I spend close to 8 or 9 hours total in my car every week, including 7 or 8 commuting.
> 
> Something with quite a bit of bass is what I am looking for. I want to keep the regular radio. No issue with external amplifiers.
> 
> Thanks


Ok, good. How do you like the volume that the stock speakers are capable of currently on all other frequencies aside from bass? How do you like the sound quality and the performance of the door speakers and tweeters? Do those sound good to you?

If so, we can leave them be and think about upgrading them down the line. It seems that what you're looking for is more bass. 

You said you want something with quite a bit of bass. What have you heard in the past that had the bass you're looking for? Just so I can get a comparison. For some people, "quite a bit of bass" can mean anything from a single 8" subwoofer to something like four 12" subwoofers. 

As a bare minimum, you need a GM PAC LOC for simplicity. 








Amazon.com: PAC AA-GM44 Amplifier Integration Interface for Select 2010 and Up GM Vehicles: Automotive

That's actually an excellent price for it. I and many others picked it up for $40. 

You'd also need at least one RCA cable, and power wiring that would need to be run from the engine bay.


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## sajayra (Apr 15, 2012)

I added a small amp and some 6x9's for extra bass. Here's some help for the install 2012 chevy cruze amp install with stock radio - YouTube


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

I may eventually put a different radio in. I am a bit frustrated by the lack of XM functionalities (such as view artists and songs, only 6 presets?!?) and the idiotically over simple EQ.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> I may eventually put a different radio in. I am a bit frustrated by the lack of XM functionalities (such as view artists and songs, only 6 presets?!?) and the idiotically over simple EQ.


Putting in a new radio is not as easy as it sounds. Not only do you have to deal with the factory integration modules (which will run you well into $200), but you also lose the ability to control some of the car's settings, such as door delay timers and unlock patterns. 

You can always install an aftermarket EQ after a LOC to give you better control if you need it. Let me know when you get a chance to answer the questions I asked in my earlier post and I can give you some recommendations for actual parts.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Putting in a new radio is not as easy as it sounds. Not only do you have to deal with the factory integration modules (which will run you well into $200), but you also lose the ability to control some of the car's settings, such as door delay timers and unlock patterns.
> 
> You can always install an aftermarket EQ after a LOC to give you better control if you need it. Let me know when you get a chance to answer the questions I asked in my earlier post and I can give you some recommendations for actual parts.


So you advise me to keep the radio, flat the EQ and add an aftermarket EQ?

So say all I want to do for the moment is add speakers in the rear, plus a sub woofer and amps, what should I do?

I would like to eventually change the door speakers. Also I think that too much of the sound comes from the tiny speakers at the dash level, any idea on how to reroute more of the sound?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> So you advise me to keep the radio, flat the EQ and add an aftermarket EQ?
> 
> So say all I want to do for the moment is add speakers in the rear, plus a sub woofer and amps, what should I do?
> 
> I would like to eventually change the door speakers. Also I think that too much of the sound comes from the tiny speakers at the dash level, any idea on how to reroute more of the sound?


I would indeed keep the radio and get an aftermarket EQ. Cheaper and simpler than getting an entirely new head unit. 

I wouldn't recommend putting speakers in the rear. It will be more trouble than its worth and will not improve sound quality. You don't really need more bass once you get a subwoofer installed. 

The speakers in the dash are tweeters, which are always going to be small because they only play very high frequencies. The speakers in the doors take care of the rest of the sound. The only thing you can do there is upgrade both of them, which will require an amplifier and a new set of component speakers. I would start with the subwoofer and see if you want more in the front. 

What should you do? Well, to start, answer the questions I asked in my post below. Once you do that, I can make you recommendations on some components. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> Ok, good. How do you like the volume that the stock speakers are capable of currently on all other frequencies aside from bass? How do you like the sound quality and the performance of the door speakers and tweeters? Do those sound good to you?
> 
> If so, we can leave them be and think about upgrading them down the line. It seems that what you're looking for is more bass.
> 
> ...


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

I thought I had pioneer too because the stock speakers are pretty decent. Pioneer probably takes it down though, LOL


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## gman19 (Apr 5, 2011)

Check it out...you should have 36 presets in the stock unit...

By pressing the "FAV" button on your radio, you should be able to program up to 6 "pages" of 6 presets into your head unit, which will give you 36 presets.
If pressing the "FAV" button does not cycle thru the pages, you will need to go into the setup and enable the extra pages. The head unit allows you to disable unwanted/unused
pages so you don't have to cycle thru them every time you use your presets.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

Well, I do not really like the volume, no. They lack body. I am a metal head, meaning I like rich sound with lots of bass and treble, but it needs to remain audible and clear.

I think the sound quality is very so-so. May be because I traded a Volvo for the Cruze. Obviously I am used to a better sound.

I don't mind the tweeter, but they still seem to carry most of the sound. I am looking to feel surrounded by sound, not feel like I am listening to music on a TV with no surround sound system.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> Well, I do not really like the volume, no. They lack body. I am a metal head, meaning I like rich sound with lots of bass and treble, but it needs to remain audible and clear.
> 
> I think the sound quality is very so-so. May be because I traded a Volvo for the Cruze. Obviously I am used to a better sound.
> 
> I don't mind the tweeter, but they still seem to carry most of the sound. I am looking to feel surrounded by sound, not feel like I am listening to music on a TV with no surround sound system.


That's not a very natural way to listen to music. When you go listen to a live concert, are you surrounded by instruments and music? Car audio is already very difficult to get right without adding destructive interference from rear speakers. 

The tweeters in the pillars sound like they carry most of the sound because they are higher up and more on-axis with your ears than the door speakers are. It doesn't feel very full because, well, it's not. It's one reason I created the how-to SQ car audio thread. 

That said, it looks like you want to upgrade your front speakers as well as add a subwoofer. Again, I wouldn't add speakers to the rear deck. It simply won't sound good. On the Pioneer system, those are just subwoofers, and for a good reason. 

Surround sound has absolutely no place in music reproduction. Its sole purpose is for effects in movies. I'm not trying to be an ass, but if you're pushing for a "surround sound" kind of sound, you've never heard a properly reproduced sound stage before. 

I still have absolutely no idea what you would consider to be "lots of bass."

Yes, they lack body. They lack decent reproduction in the crossover range, they lack midbass, they lack frequency response above 8000hz, and they are limited in power. The solution will be new amplified front component speakers, sound deadening in the doors, and a subwoofer with an amplifier in the trunk.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

At live concerts, included some I have played as a musician, we place PAs around, with the bass player using his own amplified.

So, yes, people get sound from different directions and what I say makes complete sense.

Anyway, I will find out what I need. You missed an opportunity to sell me one of your boxes.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> At live concerts, included some I have played as a musician, we place PAs around, with the bass player using his own amplified.
> 
> So, yes, people get sound from different directions and what I say makes complete sense.
> 
> Anyway, I will find out what I need. You missed an opportunity to sell me one of your boxes.


There was more to it than just what I said. 

You said you didn't want to spend over $1000, right? What then is the point of rear speakers on a budget that small. I say small because of the following. 

Your front sound stage will always be more important than the rear. Always. It's the reason why you have tweeters up front and no tweeters in the rear. They are extremely directional and have very poor off-axis response the higher the frequencies go. I assume since you're arguing against that, that you haven't actually measured the frequency response of a driver on and off axis. Otherwise, they would have just put coaxials or tweeters in the doors like they did back in the 90s in older GM cars. Why do stereo speakers in the rear sound terrible? Everything is not only off-axis, but under a dash pad that muffles the sound before it bounces off the rear window. If you caught that, that's two aspects that ruin sound quality; reflections and a non-transparent medium. It's just a bad idea from an acoustic standpoint. 

Back to the front sound stage, there's something missing and it's obvious. It's a poor frequency response. If you would have measured the in-cab response with a log average sweep on a calibrated measurement microphone, you'd know I'm right, because I don't just pull these things out of nowhere. The front speakers are absolutely terrible at reproducing a correct frequency response. Like I said, you have terrible response in the crossover region (1000-6000hz typically), but the tweeters also don't produce much at all above 8,000hz not only due to a cheap and terrible sounding tweeter but also due to a severe off-axis placement. There's a single capacitor as a protection circuit, which hints at a high tuning frequency that leaves half of your entire vocal range being played by the midwoofers at your feet, which again are muffled by the surrounding carpet and are severely off-axis. 

A good set of front components will set you back $200. A good amplifier to power them will set you back $150. The GM PAC LOC will set you back $25, along with another $100 if not more for wiring. What are we at now? $475. We have $525 left to work with and we haven't even talked about sound deadening, which is not just important, but crucial. Without a way to seal the front waves from the back ones and control panel resonance, you will never get that richness and fullness you're talking about. The panels will resonate and howl in the midbass region from 200 to 800hz and will be severely muted below 200hz because that thin plastic film won't do enough to block rear sound waves.

Back to our $525 remaining budget (which doesn't include the cost of speaker adapters for your aftermarket components either), we now have two options for you. Either run your rear speakers that you seem dead set on buying, or run a subwoofer. You can't do both because your $1000 budget doesn't allow it. There are reasons why 6x9s are not the way to get good amounts of bass. To start, you're going to be looking at high Qts drivers that have comparatively low excursion capabilities, low overall cone area, and you will be very limited to how low you can play because they're not in a box and the the back seats and rear deck are a poor insulator of low audio frequencies. If you do get some rear speakers, you're looking at $125 for the speakers themselves and another $125 for the amp. 

What are we left with now? $225, and all we've accomplished with $250 of that is that we've created a slew of destructive interferences by pointing all frequencies toward a sloping window, we achieved very poor low frequency extension for the reasons mentioned above, and to top it all off, we're getting frequency cancellations. Car audio is not the same as pro or home audio. $225 will not be enough to get you a good amplifier and a good subwoofer, let alone a good box even if it's a crappy pre-fabbed box. 

Take that $525 instead and put it toward a subwoofer, and you might actually get your "lots of bass" (which you still haven't answered my question about), and even then you are at the low end of that price point. Expect to spend $150-$200 for a good subwoofer, $150-$180 for a good amplifier, and when you're done, you'd probably end up with a prefabbed box unless you wanted to expand your budget a bit. 

On top of that, we still haven't talked about sound deadening. 

Now do you understand why I didn't recommend rear 6x9s? It's not worth it. Why do you come in here asking for advice, then ignore my questions and proceed to argue with me? You won't get decent and accurate low frequency extension out of 6x9s, and you don't have the budget to do all of it. You're comparing car audio to an orchestral sound stage with PA speakers everywhere as if they had anything in common when they simply don't. There are so many differences that I wouldn't know where to start. Between 6x9s and a dedicated subwoofer, the choice on ALL fronts except for cost (and even that's debatable) is clear and in favor of the dedicated subwoofer. 

I don't care if I don't sell you a box. I'm mildly insulted that you assumed that's what I was trying to do. I provide that as a service to the community. I would be bankrupt if all I did was build sub boxes for people all day. When you consider that it takes me a solid 6-8 hours to build a box because of how well these boxes are built and my attention to detail, then consider that ~$60 of what I charge is my cost in materials, that my time designing is free, that I have expensive tools that do eventually break down, expensive router bits and saw blades that are dulled 2x faster with MDF than they are with solid wood, and that I have an electic bill to pay, you really start to wonder why in the world I'm even offering to build custom sub boxes. If I wanted to turn a profit, I'd be charging 2x what I am and I'd still be under what a GOOD car audio shop would charge. 

Audio is my passion. The things I do with home audio would blow you away. I help with car audio and provide this service for designing sub boxes for free and building them for what any experienced car audio enthusiast would call a heck of a deal because I enjoy doing this. One thing I don't enjoy doing is trying to give advice to someone who rudely shoves it back in my face as if I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'd rather not sell you a box if you're going to be rude about it, but I don't mind helping and giving advice to people who are willing to listen. If you want my help and advice, you know where to find me.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

That's cool you got into a rant I basically read about 10% of.

My point is simple: I have some extra cash, I want better sound in my car. You ask me some questions, fine, I answer. You ask me more, I answer. From then on you say you don't like my answers and then you go into some very patronizing rant.

That's cool, if that's the way you're wired (pun intended).


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> That's cool you got into a rant I basically read about 10% of.
> 
> My point is simple: I have some extra cash, I want better sound in my car. You ask me some questions, fine, I answer. You ask me more, I answer. From then on you say you don't like my answers and then you go into some very patronizing rant.
> 
> That's cool, if that's the way you're wired (pun intended).


Dude, I asked you a question you never answered. I was trying to get your idea of what "lots of bass" sounds like. That's why I quoted myself and repeated it. Here, I'll quote it a third time:



> You said you want something with quite a bit of bass. *What have you heard in the past that had the bass you're looking for?* Just so I can get a comparison. For some people, "quite a bit of bass" can mean anything from a single 8" subwoofer to something like four 12" subwoofers.


Audio in general is extremely subjective. How do you expect me to help you when I can't even get a feel for what you're looking for? 

I would highly advise you actually read what I said because I took the time to write it, not to be an jerk, but to help you. Change your tone a bit and you might actually learn something about car audio. All I'm trying to do here is help you make the best out of the money you have and get the best sounding system your money can buy.

I'm off to post the frequency response measurements I just took in my Cruze. I would also advise you check out that post in my how-to car audio SQ thread (2nd link in my signature) if you want to know exactly why you feel that your stock system sounds lifeless, dull, and "off" and what you can do to improve it and how.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

As I said, that's cool.


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

LeFrog said:


> That's cool you got into a rant I basically read about 10% of.
> 
> My point is simple: I have some extra cash, I want better sound in my car. You ask me some questions, fine, I answer. You ask me more, I answer. From then on you say you don't like my answers and then you go into some very patronizing rant.
> 
> That's cool, if that's the way you're wired (pun intended).


It looks like a rant cause you only read 10% of it. Inside the wall of text, there is information to help you understand why there is MUCH more needed than "I want more bass".


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

Just thinking about this little thread this morning. How did you expect non-subjective answers to questions which will most likely command subjective answers?

What does that mean "lots of bass"? Well, that means lots of bass. Can someone give an objective answer? Nope.

"Surrounded by sound" means surrounded by sound, as in not having the sound seemingly come from the dash speakers only.

Plus I explained the type of music I like: heavy rock.

From that point on, nothing more to add. I don't see the point of going into a pointless rant over that, what a waste of time.

And yes, it was a rant, because nowhere did he try to achieve anything but to show off and patronize.

How do I end up with extra cash? By not treating my clients like that.


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

LMAO. I give up bro.

Read it with a mind to LEARN, not to be told what to do. He never ranted, it looks like one, but then so do books with LOTS of text and pages right? 

Seriously read it, youll see what i mean.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> Just thinking about this little thread this morning. How did you expect non-subjective answers to questions which will most likely command subjective answers?
> 
> What does that mean "lots of bass"? Well, that means lots of bass. Can someone give an objective answer? Nope.
> 
> ...


You still didn't answer my question. What have you heard in the past that has the kind of bass you're looking for? I could have you listen to 10 different subwoofers and you'll form 10 different opinions about all of them. You make it sound simple when it's really not.

Here's how my buddy Joe refers to lots of bass: Two 12" Digital Designs subwoofers on a 3500W Sundown Audio amplifier producing in excess of 150db SPL in a ported box tuned to the high 30s. There is "lots of bass" in one specific frequency range, and serves only to be an SPL car. 

Here's how my mom refers to lots of bass: One 8" sub in a sealed box that gives her a headache at half volume. 

Here's how I refer to lots of bass: 4 12" subwoofers or 2 15" subwoofers in a sealed box that faithfully reproduce all frequencies accurately as they were recorded. 

Here's how a guy I once new on another forum referred to lots of bass: an 8 cubic foot box in the back of a Honda CRZ with two 15" SSA Dcon subs with a gigantic 10" flared port tuned to 34hz that took me over 6 hours to design. 

So what do you call lots of bass? If a single 8" sub is "lots of bass" for you, then you don't need to spend more than $100 on the sub and $150 on the amp. If two 12" subs is "lots of bass" then you're looking at a $700 sub-bass system. How do you expect me to give you specific advice with such vague answers? I asked for a subjective answer because this is a VERY subjective topic. 

If all you want to hear is blur and boom, go to Best Buy, waste money on overpriced and severely marked up garbage, and have their "technician" install it. If you want to hear what bass is supposed to sound like, you're going to have to give me more than just "I want lots of bass."

How did I end up designing home theater speakers that make car audio concepts look elementary? By not treating those who gave me free advice like garbage.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

It is obvious that whatever answer I give you, it will be subjective to you, no matter what I say and that the questions and answers will last forever.

I quit because it was obvious you were not into doing business any longer, while I am.

You like to write a ton, I am about efficiency: straight to the point.

Take it from there. It's not hard. Over interpret, take it the extra step, make a bigger buck this way. Hey, you said "lots of bass", if give you lots of bass, it's a $2000 system, whatever: enjoy.

You need to learn to make a sales pitch and not patronize. You'll probably be 2 or 3 times more successful.


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## Juggernaut (Apr 1, 2012)

^ you need to learn to listen and take advice, X gives great advice and helps out as much as he can. IMO he goes above and beyond for fellow cruze owners on this board.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> It is obvious that whatever answer I give you, it will be subjective to you, no matter what I say and that the questions and answers will last forever.
> 
> I quit because it was obvious you were not into doing business any longer, while I am.
> 
> ...


You think that because I'm a vendor, I'm here to do nothing but sell something? You couldn't be more wrong. I charge less than half what I should for my sub boxes. ****, if I was doing nothing but selling sub boxes, even if I was building one a day (they take 6-8 hours to build), I'd go BROKE because I'm not doing this for a profit; I'm doing this to make SQ car audio affordable to people. I work a 9-5 job 40 hours a week and I do this on the side for fun. I charge $200 for a dual sub box where $60 of that is my own cost, $40 of that is my tools and electricity, and $100 of that is my own time. At 6-8 hours, I'm making $12.50-$16.66 an hour, which is less than half what I make at my full time job. I charge that $100 so I can take my wife to dinner a couple of nights a week since I spend so much time away from her helping everyone else. 

I'm giving you free adive. Let me repeat, *free*. I'm not charging for this advice, I'm not selling you any car audio I own, so what's with the elitist "customer is always right" attitude? You're not my customer (and if you keep this up, never will be), and I'm not your retail store. If I was, I wouldn't have taken the time to give you such detailed advice. I'm doing one thing: trying to help you get the most bang out of your 1000 bucks. Who in their right mind tries to run a business out of charity? The mere notion is laughable.

I write a ton because this is a field I'm passionate about and enjoy doing, and there's more to it than you're obviously aware of. Like I said, go waste your money at Best Buy where all they'll care about is your money if you don't want to listen. That's not what I'm about and everyone here knows that.


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## cecaa850 (Apr 9, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> That's cool you got into a rant I basically read about 10% of.


That's too bad, was it your ADHD kicking in or you just couldn't understand what was being presented to you? In either case, maybe you should go back and re-read the post, ask questions if you need to. There's a lot of good info there.


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## cecaa850 (Apr 9, 2012)

By the way, if Xtreme was only here to hawk his boxes, why does he offer to design boxes for free for people wanting to build their own? Not much of a business model if you ask me.


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## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)




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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

I ask simple questions, you ask simple questions, simple answers on each side.

What more can I say? I did give enough information. I had absolutely nothing more to say because nothing more was to be said.

What did you expect me to say?

Give some types of examples in your line of question, as in: "something more like... or something more like..."? 

This is where it is very frustrating, because you went off on a tangent without answering the original question, ranting on cost of this and that. But it turns out I already have a good idea of the wiring and installation part of things, what I am looking for is the type of speaker and subwoofer box which work well for _this model_ in particular.

If you are not interested, pass on. No need to go crazy and write 10 big paragraphs.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

cecaa850 said:


> By the way, if Xtreme was only here to hawk his boxes, why does he offer to design boxes for free for people wanting to build their own? Not much of a business model if you ask me.


I never said he was only here to hawk his boxes.

I spent quite a bit of time reading this forum and it seems to be a rule that he shows up in quite a few of them and writes a lot. That's great and we can all appreciate.

But when simple questions asks for simple answers, no need to make it more complicated.

I am not getting all upset over this, he seems to like arguing, whatever floats his boat and makes him happy, again: I am cool with it.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> I ask simple questions, you ask simple questions, simple answers on each side.
> 
> What more can I say? I did give enough information. I had absolutely nothing more to say because nothing more was to be said.
> 
> ...


First off, I'm trying to help, and you're being rude and disrespectful. I don't think there's anyone who will disagree with that statement. 

Second off, you're asking for help but you are too lazy to put in your own time to read it in response to the time others (namely me) are taking to give you advice. 

Third, knock it off and answer the question already if you want to be happy with what you end up spending your money on.

"What part of "lots of bass" is very vague" don't you understand? I'll humor you here. 

Here are some options that (based on who you are and what you've heard in the past) will give you what can be considered "lots of bass:"

*Exhibit A: The Sundown Audio SA-10/SA-12*
This is an SPL sub. It pounds till your head hurts and you'll wish you had an aspirin in the glove compartment:
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/store/products/Sundown-Audio-SA-10-Subwoofer.html

The 10" costs $185 and the 12" costs $195. Here's what two of them do to your car:









The guy I knew who ran those subs considered them to be "lots of bass." I would call them "SPL" boxes, which are ported and have a tuning frequency in the mid 30s. Great for rap, hip-hop, dubstep, and other synthetic types of bass through which you will definitely be heard from a block away. Not the most accurate or musical subs though.


*Exhibit B: 4x Image Dynamics IDQ12s*
At $250, these aren't exactly the cheapest subs out there, but they are some of the best, most accurate sounding subs you will ever hear in that price range. Image Dynamics carries legendary sound quality that consistently wins SQ competitions, and I mean consistently, whether it's their 10 year old V2 line or their nearly new V3 line, they will kick serious ass in SQ competitions. They aren't SPL subs, but if you run 4 of them, they will reach high SPL (lots of bass) levels.

Image Dynamics IDQ12 V.3 D4 (IDQ12-V3D4) 12" Dual 4 ohm IDQ V.3 Sub

I've built 3 boxes for these subs in the last 3 weeks alone! One of the older ones was for a member here who wanted 4 (yes, four) of them. The bare box, without carpet or subs, weighs 80 pounds. You would need to spend AT LEAST $600 to get a box like this built at a reputable shop. I built it for almost half that and it took me 10 hours to do it. 









These subwoofers produce "lots of bass." The difference is it's lot of very clean, accurate, tight, and musical bass. Of course, box, subs and amp would probably cost you close to $2,000. People who have been used to running dual 12s in their car would consider this to be "lots of bass." The guy who is currently running this setup took his brother out for a drive and when his brother got back home, he had to take some advil and lay down because he had a headache from all of the bass. 


*Exhibit C: The Kove Audio U2 Armageddon 18" Subwoofer. *
Pictured next to it is a 12" subwoofer. You need only 2,500W RMS to power it and a box that will probably not fit in your Cruze. 









Not only is it uncommon, it's actually rare, and marked the end the "are you f*ing crazy?" car audio era. This subwoofer produces "lots of bass." My cousin ran one and my ass vibrated off of the passenger seat when he had it cranked up, as well as setting off the car alarms of 4 cars nearby. Definitely fits the description you gave me (or didn't give me). 


*Exhibit D: 2x Image Dynamics IDQ10 V3*
This would produce "lots of bass" to anyone that I come in contact with on a regular basis. However, they're through and through SQ subs like their 12" variants and cost you just over $200 each. They have an unusually large cone area of 399 square CM, which is 20-30% more than any other 10" sub in its price range, allowing it to sound louder on less power. Works well in small sealed boxes, and still fits your description. 


*Exhibit E: The Image Dynamics IDMax10*
I ran this sub for a year. I miss hearing it every day, but I haven't had time to get my Cruze system running because I'm building sub boxes for other people and spending time helping others like you. This sub requires 1000W RMS and a .9 cubic foot sealed box. It packs a 3.8" peak to peak excursion and a 1" total xmax, which is very large. This is an SQL sub; the perfect blend of sound quality an SPL. It puts the JL 10W7 to shame on all fronts even though they're supposed to compete. 









This sub is excellent if you 
A. have 1000W on hand
B. are tight on space
C. have $400 to spend on a sub

I love the sub. At lower volumes, it sounds very clean. At higher volumes, it pounds very hard, and it fits in .9 cubic feet so it doesn't take up my entire trunk doing it. However, the price is $400, and for that, I could have two IDQ10 V3s that would be louder and sound more musical. Sealed boxes only. 





Now, I've shown you 5 different subwoofer setups, all of which match your "lots of bass" description, with varying degrees of practicality, price, sound quality, and actual SPL output. They will all sound different. 

If you haven't yet noticed, nobody wants to help you around here because of how you treated me when I tried to help you. Have you noticed the other replies that you've been getting from other members? Knock off the attitude and I'll try to forget that the last few pages ever happened and help you find a sub that will make you happy. 

Between something like the SA-10/SA-12 and the IDQ10/IDQ12 is a BIG difference in sound. Both will produce a good amount of bass. One will be significantly louder, one will be significantly more musical. The IDMax10 will be both musical and loud, but expensive and power hungry. 

So I'm going to ask you again, given what I've demonstrated above as options (whether or not they're legitimate), how do you define "lots of bass?" Do you just want to have your brains rattled and be heard from a block away, or do you want to hear music exactly as it was recorded. Or, do you want a bit of both, and how much do you want to spend on just the sub, box, and amp? I can design and recommend boxes from one extreme to the other in all price ranges. There are so many options that it's impossible for me to make a recommendation without knowing more of what you're looking for.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> I never said he was only here to hawk his boxes.
> 
> I spent quite a bit of time reading this forum and it seems to be a rule that he shows up in quite a few of them and writes a lot. That's great and we can all appreciate.
> 
> ...


I write a lot because there's rarely a simple answer. If I told you to get an SA-10 or SA-12 subwoofer and you went with it, you may come back to complain that it just sounds like a one note wonder box and doesn't have the sound quality you're looking for, that it might sound "off," inaccurate, or it might not sound as great as I cracked it up to be. If I recommended you a single IDQ10 V3, you might have come back and said it doesn't meet your expectations for sheer loudness and you expected something that pounded a bit harder. How exactly am I supposed to make a recommendation?

Everyone's needs and perceptions are different, so I try to figure out exactly what it is they would like before I just throw up links to random parts that would create some kind of noise.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

And just so you can't say I never gave you a simple answer, 

Here's what you should run if you wanted lots of bass:

Two IDQ12 V3 subwoofers:
Image Dynamics IDQ12 V.3 D4 (IDQ12-V3D4) 12" Dual 4 ohm IDQ V.3 Sub

One Powerful Amplifier:
Hifonics BRZ1700.1D Class D Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com

Find a local shop to build you a custom box to 2.2-2.3 cubic feet net with 4-point bracing, a double thick baffle, and a perfect seal. Or, I can build you one for $200 plus shipping. Expect shipping to be around $75. 

The above assumes that you want to spend $975 to get lots of bass in your car. You can reduce it to one IDQ12 and drop that by $250. It also assumes that you are more concerned with sound quality than you are with output, and that you want very high quality equipment that will last you the life of your car. It's what I would run in my car if I had that kind of money.


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## LeFrog (May 6, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> And just so you can't say I never gave you a simple answer,
> 
> Here's what you should run if you wanted lots of bass:
> 
> ...



Hey, listen, man, I am cool and I hope you are, although I really wonder when I see the bricks of text that you write.

Not sure when and how you thought I was rude and disrespectful, sorry if it seemed this way, it was not my intention.

You seem to really want to be helpful and I see what you're trying to do, coming out of whatever this is with the upper hand.

I also help a lot of people online, on several different web boards. So I understand what you're trying to do in general over here (although I wonder how you manage to spend so much time on here, but I digress).

But you do not seem to realize how frustrating your line of questioning was and nowhere do you even give an example of the type of answer you were expecting.

Sometimes it is fine to keep it simple.

As for DIY versus hiring someone to do the job, even if it is Best Buy or Audio Express: sometimes it makes sense to DIY, but it is ok to help the economy and pay someone to do what he is an expert at.

I would not diss Best Buy if I were you.

I've had a good experience there when I had XM installed in my previous car, they did a good job and it was clean. I pay a price I thought was fair and moved on. I could have spent numerous hours of my own time figuring out what to get and how to install it, with the risk of f-ing up.

Nothing wrong with helping the economy.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

LeFrog said:


> Hey, listen, man, I am cool and I hope you are, although I really wonder when I see the bricks of text that you write.
> 
> Not sure when and how you thought I was rude and disrespectful, sorry if it seemed this way, it was not my intention.
> 
> ...


Do you actually read what I write, or just look at it as a block of text? Why do you think you come off as rude or disrespectful? Those aren't even my own words, but the words of two private messages I've received from people regarding this thread. I take the time to provide valid, useful, and often necessary advice, and everyone here backs me up on that. You on the other hand refuse to even read it, which is basically kicking dirt in my face. How is that not disrespectful and rude? I'm not trying to argue with you, and I told you I'd let the past few pages go, but you didn't seem to realize how much of a prick you've been in this thread. That said, I am letting it go, and your apology is accepted. Can we move on? Consider the following line a fresh start:

_____________________________________________________

I post occasionally from work during my breaks and while waiting for something to happen, like a system to reboot or a patch to install. I work in IT Security and I benchmark 124 words per minute at 91% accuracy. All of those big blocks of text take me about as much time to write as they take me to think up. Hey, you asked...

If you wanted examples, you could have asked for them. I just asked you what you've heard in the past that has the bass you're looking for. If you've never heard anything and just want louder bass, that's all you would have to say, but I've had to bite my tongue in the past when assuming people have no experience, so I've stopped doing that and instead asked them questions to gauge how much experience they have and how trained their ears are. I can sit inside anyone's car and tell them exactly what is right or wrong with their sound system, then take a measurement with my RTA rig and confirm my analysis. Designing and voicing home theater speakers has trained my ears beyond what most people can imagine, but it also makes it more difficult for me to give advice. What sounds like crap to me might make you feel like you're in heaven. Understand where I'm coming from? 

I don't like Best Buy because many of their products are of low quality I wouldn't be paid to use, and they are severely overpriced and marked up (we're talking 200-%300% on amplifiers, more on cables). I'm all in favor of supporting the economy, which is why I bought my Cruze and bought it brand new, but when it comes to car audio, you're almost always better off doing it yourself. They simply don't have anything in stock that will compete with what I can recommend to you for value, sound quality, and performance. That's really my biggest gripe against them. Their installers are also very hit or miss. I've seen them screw up friends' rides terribly, and I've seen them do some pretty solid work. 

Moving onto how to get you into a good subwoofer, what did you think of the IDQ12 drivers I just posted? Does it sound like something that would work for you? Is it in your budget range, or should I be looking for something a bit cheaper? I would consider them to be some of the best subwoofers on the market. They aren't SPL monsters, but they are very musical subs that can also pound pretty hard, especially in multiples, and can do that in a small amount of sealed space. I don't know of any other subwoofers that can do what they do.


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