# Do I Really Need Premium Gas?



## AutoGuide.com (Jul 26, 2010)

> Cost is often the first thing that comes to mind when motorists think of gasoline. Many will drive halfway across town to save a couple cents per gallon. Additionally, purchasing regular-grade fuel to save money can be an exercise in false economy, especially if your vehicle is designed for premium gas.
> 
> Running fuel with insufficient octane can cause internal engine damage, which isn’t pretty. “The worst case scenario …. You could actually [melt] holes in the pistons and cause catastrophic damage to the [connecting] rods,” said Bill Studzinski, GM powertrain fuels group manager. Fortunately a disaster of this caliber is unlikely in today’s highly tuned, computer-controlled powerplants. Still he said, “You should follow the owner’s manual guidance.”
> 
> ...


For the rest of this story, Do I Really Need Premium Gas? please visit _AutoGuide.com._


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Before the guaranteed "See, I told you the Cruze doesn't require premium gas" post, remember this - the 1.8 (LS) and 1.4T (1LT, ECO, 2LT, and LTZ) Ecotec engines in the North American Cruze are coded "KRD - 91 octane". GM's engineers figured out how to allow the Cruze to run on regular 87 octane gas but this comes with the tradeoff of lower total Horsepower and lower low RPM torque, both of which reduce drivability and fuel efficiency.

The current recall on the 2011-2013 Automatics (LT, ECO, LTZ) to reprogram the ECU is required to fix some of the low octane adjustments GM made. Under high RPM high load 87 octane situations, the ignition timing maps inject too much gas into the cylinders. It appears these cars are receiving the updated software that first came out with the 2014 model year, for which we have anecdotal evidence pointing to improvements in low end torque as well when running on 87 octane.


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## BU54 (Nov 24, 2014)

Recently I noticed a +/-10% increase in MPG when using 91 instead of 87 octane with a +/-15% increase in cost. I think I'm going to stick with 91, but around here most stations have 87,89,92 or 93.


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

So where do you buy that 93 ? I want that station !


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## BU54 (Nov 24, 2014)

brian v said:


> So where do you buy that 93 ? I want that station !


BP(the old amoco) and speedway I think shell has it too but not positive. BP,Speedway and Thorntons(has 92)are the 3 that I drive by every day going to work.
I use 100% 93 in my chevelle even though it needs 96.


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## CruzeTech (Mar 23, 2012)

My car runs like absolute hammered dog [email protected], on 87 octane.


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## Chris2298 (Aug 1, 2012)

I found a station close that has ethanol free 91.. I like it!!


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

BU54 said:


> BP(the old amoco) and speedway I think shell has it too but not positive. BP,Speedway and Thorntons(has 92)are the 3 that I drive by every day going to work.
> I use 100% 93 in my chevelle even though it needs 96.


95% of the stations in Wisconsin have 91E0 for the premium grade. Have found Shell, BP, Mobil, and Cenex randomly have 93E10. When I took my trip to Texas in 2012 I filled only at shell, every single station I stopped at had 93E10. 

Every single northern Illinois station I have stopped at has 93E10.


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

brian v said:


> So where do you buy that 93 ? I want that station !


Aside from Sunoco Racing Fuel at $8 a gallon, 91 Octane is the highest blend sold in this area. I tried 91 octane once and my 14 1LT ran terrible. High idle and surged from a start. I find 89 during the summer just fine and believe it would also do ok on 87?


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

I'll give AutoGuide credit on this one. Most articles written for "one size fits all" don't. Worse, too many say that running higher octane than in the owner's manual is a waste of money. While not Cruze-specific, they did good on this one.


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## bostonboy (Apr 8, 2015)

Eddy Cruze said:


> Aside from Sunoco Racing Fuel at $8 a gallon, 91 Octane is the highest blend sold in this area. I tried 91 octane once and my 14 1LT ran terrible. High idle and surged from a start. I find 89 during the summer just fine and believe it would also do ok on 87?


I believe here for 106-110 octane AKA race fuel its $80 for a 5 gallon can. They only sell it on there cans


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Eddy Cruze said:


> Aside from Sunoco Racing Fuel at $8 a gallon, 91 Octane is the highest blend sold in this area. I tried 91 octane once and my 14 1LT ran terrible. High idle and surged from a start.


Sounds like you got old gas, certainly would not rate one fill up or brand on how 91 octane runs in your cruze. If I remember correctly don't you typically run cheap gas? Ever think it was possibly running poorly because the premium was cleaning out some deposits your normal fuel is leaving behind? The cruze by design will start on high idle if the temperature is low enough, will run 1500RPM for 20 seconds to a minute and a half depending how cold.


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

spacedout said:


> Sounds like you got old gas, certainly would not rate one fill up or brand on how 91 octane runs in your cruze. If I remember correctly don't you typically run cheap gas? .


 Where did you read I use cheap Gas? That's the name of the place, "Cheap Gas". No I have been using mostly Safeway Gas and while its not rated 'Top Tier' its fine and a super high volume station. However I do live right in the Death Valley metro area:grin: so should I change to 91, I say no. My biggest fear when I first bought this Car is it would run hot during the summer due to the tiny little engine. Some encouraging words from JB regarding the cooling system were absolutely true and the CRUZE runs fine all the time. Perhaps the key is driving a 14 +


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## bostonboy (Apr 8, 2015)

From what I here about no name gas stations is that there filters systems are not as good as name brands. Can anyone chime in on this please? 
Thanks


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Eddy Cruze said:


> Where did you read I use cheap Gas? That's the name of the place, "Cheap Gas". No I have been using mostly Safeway Gas and while its not rated 'Top Tier' its fine and a super high volume station.


Anything not top tier would be considered cheap gas. How much do you actually save not running top tier? According to the owners manual if your not running top tier gas your suppose to run a bottle of GM fuel system cleaner every oil change. Seems a pretty good indicator of the importance of a quality fuel. Unfortunately for the consumer there is no real way to test fuel quality, but that is exactly why manufactures came up with the top tier standard. 

GM fuel system cleaner is just re-branded chevron techron concentrate, even comes in the same exact bottle with just a different label. The 12oz bottle part number is 88861262, but cost 2X what the same size bottle of techron concentrate cost at a local box store. Add in this cost per oil change, your not saving anything running cheap gas.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

bostonboy said:


> From what I here about no name gas stations is that there filters systems are not as good as name brands. Can anyone chime in on this please?
> Thanks


There are filters in the pumps, some stations don't change them as often as others. Really no way of knowing when they were last changed.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I have a Safeway and a Shell near me - nothing else. I won't use the Shell and it's not about the price - it's about the fact that the gas at the Shell sits a lot longer than the gas at Safeway. Safeway is resupplying their underground tanks about every 3-4 days. Shell is once every couple of weeks.


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## peligro911 (Apr 8, 2015)

I only use chevron premium 91 or 93 I don't remember .. I was using 87 chevron until decided to try the higher grade and I noticed a difference right away and never have gone back 


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

spacedout said:


> Anything not top tier would be considered cheap gas. How much do you actually save not running top tier? According to the owners manual if your not running top tier gas your suppose to run a bottle of GM fuel system cleaner every oil change. Seems a pretty good indicator of the importance of a quality fuel. Unfortunately for the consumer there is no real way to test fuel quality, but that is exactly why manufactures came up with the top tier standard.
> 
> GM fuel system cleaner is just re-branded chevron techron concentrate, even comes in the same exact bottle with just a different label. The 12oz bottle part number is 88861262, but cost 2X what the same size bottle of techron concentrate cost at a local box store. Add in this cost per oil change, your not saving anything running cheap gas.


 You know before Techron there was Techroline, and other additives were always available, GM made some below. If you feel good after pumping I feel good knowing you feel good. I just hope I never see you at my Safeway or any Albertsons branded store across our great nation. I'm sure Robby who dispensed my favorite brand, Unocal 89 ( they didn't offer an 87) might object to you calling the product he sold cheap or dirty. Has gas come a long way or is it all hocus pocus? For that matter I'm sure many stations receive Gas shipments with this additive already in it and you just don't know?


Collector's Guide to Vintage Gasoline Additives [h=4]by Wayne Henderson, _Petroleum Collectibles Monthly_
The story behind collectible petroleum additive advertising, cans, signs and globes.​[/h]









It would not be unusual for an ad in _Petroleum Collectibles Monthly_ to read "Wanted - Purol Pep single lens for 15" metal; Complete globes - Deep Rock Kant-Nock and Mid-West (Michigan), both on 13.5" glass. Call BR-549." 
Both Purol Pep and Deep Rock Kant-Nock were well known gasoline brandnames, and Mid-Marketed only slightly less so since they only marked in Michigan. But occaisionaly you will see reference to "Solvenized Purol Pep," "Deep Rock Kant-Nock with Ethyl," or Mid-West Lubrigas." What are these products? How did it come about that virtually every company marketed a premium grade of gasoline tagged "with Ethyl?" And why do Pure, Jenny, United, Woco-Pep and others refer to their gasoline as "Solvenized?" Are those companies related? Lets take a look...








Advances in automotive engine design saw major steps forward during the decade of 1910-1920. Early two-cylinder and four-cylinder designs gradually gave way to six-cylinder in-line engines. As early as 1915 Cadillac offered a V-8 engine in certain models. Engines development, however, was hampered by the lack of availability of high octane fuels necessary in developing higher compression ratios. The petroleum industry experimented with a number of blends and additives to gasoline in an attempt to create a fuel of higher anti-knock capability. Of the early additives, a blend of benzene and gasoline, marketed as "Benzol" offered the most promise. In 1915 a small Baltimore refiner-marketer, critically short of crude supplies, developed a high octane benzol fuel they named "Amoco-Gas," taking an acronym of the corporate name, American Oil Company. Availability of the fuel was somewhat hampered by the company's limited resources and crude oil supplies, and it would be nearly ten years before Amoco-Gas was available outside of a very limited area. The first effort by a major gasoline marketer to introduce a high octane gasoline came in 1922 when Standard of Indiana introduced "Solite," a gasoline with a higher specific gravity (the method for determining octane rating was not established until 1929) than Standard's "Red Crown." In early 1923, the General Motors Research Labs at Dayton, Ohio began testing the addition of tetraethyl lead to gasoline. Marketing experimentation began when GM teamed with Dayton Independent Refiners Oil Company to introduce an "ethylized" gas, blending tetraethyl lead with gasoline at the pump. The experiment was quite successful and in September 1923, GM teamed up with Standard of Indiana to introduce Ethyl gasoline on a large scale. The following August, GM and Standard Oil of New Jersey formed the Ethyl Gasoline Corporation to franchise the Ethyl additive to gasoline marketers worldwide. The ink had hardly dried on this agreement when lead poisoning deaths in the Ethyl plants brought about a moratorium of the sale of "ethylized" gasoline until further study of potential harmful effects could be determined. After over a year of study by the U.S. Surgeon General, Ethyl Gasoline was reintroduced, with some restrictions on handling of the tetraethyl lead additive. With the reintroduction of Ethyl, every refiner meeting the Ethyl franchise requirements quickly signed on. Those who were deemed ineligible, for one reason or another, quickly introduced their own premium grade products in order to compete with Ethyl. Thus, in a period of about two years, virtually every marketer began offering at least two grades of gasoline. Those marketers that had, prior to the introduction of Ethyl offered a premium grade product, possibly a benzol blend or an "aviation" grade (Aviation being a common trade name for these non-ethyl premiums in the 1920s) often continued to market this product alongside their new "Ethyl." No tetraethyl lead could be added to any regular grade product until terms of the Ethyl franchise agreement were modified in 1933. Among major oil companies of this era, Standard Oil remained a single grade marketer, introducing "Blue Sunoco" in 1928 as a non-ethyl premium fuel sold at regular grade prices. Even Amoco, pioneer in high octane non-leaded fuels, offered regular grade products, originally "American Strate" and "Orange American Gas." 








As our introduction pointed out, though, the chemical additive trademarked "Ethyl" was not the only additive available to enhance the quality of gasoline. Competitive processes were developed, the most successful of which was Lubrizol Corporation's "Solvenized" additive package. Taking its name from the root word "solvent," this chemical additive was designed to dissolve carbon that builds up on automotive engine internal components. The additive was introduced in 1935, and the original marketer of "Solenized" gasoline was Cleveland, Ohio based Pocahontas Oil Company, that marketed under the "Blue Flash" brandname. Blue Flash Gasoline became "Solvenized Blue Flash," and a cartoon character, "Dirty Dan the Carbon Man" accompanied advertising of the new product, combined with the slogan Chases Carbon." Pocahontas Oil had sold out to Hickock Oil Company (Hi-Speed) by 1938, and although Hickock did not actively advertise it's gasolines as "Solvenized" (they preferred "Ex-Carbon), the Pure Oil Company, majority owner of Hickock Oil did adopt the "Solvenized" process. As a result, Purol Pep and companion product Woco-Pep (in the Southeast) were advertised as "Solvenized" although globes denoting this additive are very rare. 
Before Pure had become a Lubrizol franchisee, another regional marketer, Boston based Jenny Manufacturing, had licensed the process. Not only were Jenny Hy-Power Gasolines "SOlvenized," but their lubricants were solvent treated as well. Jenny offered their "Solvenoil" lubricants until they merged with Citgo in 1965. Another "Solvenized" marketer was Erie, Pennsylvania based United Oil Marketing, Inc. United was only a small regional operation, but incorporated the "chases Carbon" slogan and character into their signage and advertising. 








Taking another route entirely, Lubri-Gas International Inc. of Chicago Illinois, introduced a lubricant additive to blend in gasoline. While the additive was offered in the aftermarket, one marketer, Mt. Pleasant, Michigan based Mid-West Refining offered a gasoline-Lubri-Gas blend. Symbolized by a camel, Lubri-Gas was sold by other midwestern marketers as a sideline product in the 1930s and 1940s. 
Different still were the gasoline brands that promoted their refining method. One of these refining processes was known as "Dubbs Cracking," and companies including Grizzly, Leonard and Bay advertised their gasolines as being "Dubbs Cracked." 
After World War II, franchised gasoline additives gave way to individual refiners chemical compounds. Both Shell and Conoco enhanced their product with an additive known as "TCP." The element boron was added to gasoline offered by Sohio, DX and Richfield of California and nickel was added to Sinclair fuels. While these later additives do not often have a direct interest to collectors of petroleum memorabilia, they are referenced in print ads and on signs and globes. Sohio went so far, of course, as to introduce Boron as a secondary brand. Gasoline marketers continue to promote their additives even today. Chevron gasolines are enhanced with "Techroline" and indeed the Techroline additive is available in aftermarket form to add to your favorite brand of gasoline. Texaco advertises their "System 3" products and Exxon advertises "Phase 4" fuels. None of these modern-day products or processes will generate significant collectibles for future collectors in the same way that the extensive assortment of Ethyl signs or globes, each representing their individual brandnames does for us today.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm not sure we needed a lengthy history lesson on fuel additives, the EPA didn't even require detergents in gas until like 1996-1997 so none of that is relevant today. The EPA require levels though are very very low, that is why the top tier program was started by BMW, GM, Toyota, Volkswagen, Mercedes & Audi, to ensure consumers are getting the levels needed for modern engines. 

Remember all top tier brands are constantly tweaking their detergent formulas so you can't really compare an fuel from before 1996 to anything available today or for that matter fuel detergents from 10 years ago to now. 



Eddy Cruze said:


> For that matter I'm sure many stations receive Gas shipments with this additive already in it and you just don't know?




ALL stations in the USA come with the EPA required level of detergents, which is much less than top tier standards. On the video below their testing indicated the top tier stations level of detergents in regular gas was 3X the non-top tier stations. Their testing also showed top tier stations have a higher level of detergents in their premium grade than regular, this was not the case for non-top tier brands tested.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Ha, your Cruze may need premium gas use to call it Ethyl.

In regards to, do I need premium gas? Won't necessarily get this by eating premium food. 

When we intended to use high octane gas, would ignore the specified parameters for tuning, would turn it for premium. But we were replaced by a computer.


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## bostonboy (Apr 8, 2015)

spacedout said:


> I'm not sure we needed a lengthy history lesson on fuel additives, the EPA didn't even require detergents in gas until like 1996-1997 so none of that is relevant today. The EPA require levels though are very very low, that is why the top tier program was started by BMW, GM, Toyota, Volkswagen, Mercedes & Audi, to ensure consumers are getting the levels needed for modern engines.
> 
> Remember all top tier brands are constantly tweaking their detergent formulas so you can't really compare an fuel from before 1996 to anything available today or for that matter fuel detergents from 10 years ago to now.
> 
> ...


Me likey ^^^^
So in this study I believe shell is the best for high octane. 
Has anyone notice that at some name brand gas station on the outside of tankers they don't say what they are putting in the tanks? Like the Mobil near me the tankers don't say Mobil on the tanker itself when filling up the tanks. The Sunoco station always have Sunoco tankers fill up there tanks near me. I think I may stick with shell after this study.


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## dirt dauber (Dec 24, 2014)

yesterday I got my 2012 1LT cruze to the dealer for the recall, and the ecu was reflashed.
overall this reflash is great,smoother throughout the powerband and better fuel economy.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

dirt dauber said:


> yesterday I got my 2012 1LT cruze to the dealer for the recall, and the ecu was reflashed.
> overall this reflash is great,smoother throughout the powerband and better fuel economy.


This is exactly what I noticed with my car as well. Almost 2MPG better than my 3 year average for the month of May and way smoother power delivery at lower RPM. Even when I use the cruise control to bump the speed up a few MPH it seems smoother.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

spacedout said:


> This is exactly what I noticed with my car as well. Almost 2MPG better than my 3 year average for the month of May and way smoother power delivery at lower RPM. Even when I use the cruise control to bump the speed up a few MPH it seems smoother.


They need to release an update for the MTs then!


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

jblackburn said:


> They need to release an update for the MTs then!


It got rid of the surging my car would do at 1400RPM @ 30mph on a slight hill grade in 5th gear. Always required a downshift to 4th or 93E10 to cure before, as it would do it even on 91E0 premium every time. Have not hooked up the torque app to see whats going on, but suspect I will not be seeing those knock sensor hits I was before.


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## S-Fitz (Jul 16, 2012)

No matter how smart I think I am, if the engineers designed the car to run on premium, that's what I'll run. I won't run a lower grade just to save 10 cents/litre, got bigger problems in life if you can't afford it!


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> They need to release an update for the MTs then!


I won't be surprised to hear GM is extending this to MTs.


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## bluefirestarter (Jan 15, 2013)

I always get 91 from the Wawa (good coffee) near my house. I wonder if the gas is actually any decent..


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## Poje (Aug 2, 2012)

Good video and with my Tune i have no choice but to use the best we have in Canada : 94 octane.

Very happy with my engine's performance.


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## CruzerStan (May 24, 2015)

I love 93. I tried it once just out of curiosity and you do see a difference. I just got my cruze and when I was waiting in the lobby they were washing it and fueling it up for me and I have no clue if they put the premium in it. If they did then nice


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## connorwm (Jan 22, 2015)

Started putting in premium after reading this and I love the results. Much smoother acceleration and the gas mileage appears to still be at least as good as on 87. Even doing 70 on the highway with AC on I can easily accelerate without having to drop a gear.


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## BU54 (Nov 24, 2014)

spacedout said:


> 95% of the stations in Wisconsin have 91E0 for the premium grade. Have found Shell, BP, Mobil, and Cenex randomly have 93E10. When I took my trip to Texas in 2012 I filled only at shell, every single station I stopped at had 93E10.
> 
> Every single northern Illinois station I have stopped at has 93E10.


I was in El Paso TX last christmas and was shocked to see 86 octane. First time I ever saw less than 87.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

BU54 said:


> I was in El Paso TX last christmas and was shocked to see 86 octane. First time I ever saw less than 87.


Might be due to elevation, less octane required the higher you go. Denver has 85 octane gas as their regular.


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## trevforever (Feb 20, 2014)

brian v said:


> So where do you buy that 93 ? I want that station !


Shell. V-Power baby


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Two forms of engine knocking caused by fuel combustion when the piston is still in the compression stroke and is going up. inertia is forcing the piston up, combustion is pushing it back down again, causes a loud knock and very damaging to an engine.

One is pre-ignition, where the spark plug fires to early in the cycle, cure is to retard the timing so it fires later in the cycle.

The other is detonation, when you compress air, it becomes very hot that can ignite the fuel. The key controlling factor here is the compression ratio of the engine. A secondary factor is excessive carbon build up in the engine, that also effectively increases the compression ratio.

In say a vehicle like the Model A Ford using high octane fuels didn't make any difference, only had a CR of 4.5:1, could even run these cars on kerosene.

In contrast is a car like a 1970 Buick Rivera, with a 10.5:1 CR 455 CID engine, no choice but to use a high octane fuel. If you didn't, the engine would knock like crazy. Detonation was so bad in these engines with low octane fuel, engine would still run with the ignition off. 

I was given two problems by the oil companies and the EPA with this car, first was the switch from leaded to unleaded gas that was only available at the time in low octane. Leaded premium became very difficult to find, and when I could find it, suddenly the price went from 30 cents a gallon to $1.57, unleaded jumped to a more reasonable 70 cents per gallon.

Canada never used high octane gas, so managed to buy a set of Canadian head gaskets that were much thicker to reduce the compression ratio down to 9:1, this least let me use a lower octane fuel leaded gas fuel, but still expensive. And without telling us, the EPA greatly decreased the lead content leading to burnt out valves. 

So the second cure was to find a 1972 intake manifold with a carburetor on it with an EGR valve. Lucky in those days, found one in a wrecking yard for 15 bucks. Was not required by the EPA to add catalytic converters to this car, another new law starting in 1972. So then this engine became low octane unleaded gas compatible. Still ran fine, but sure decreased performance, but still got us there. 

Yet another factor to effectively increase the compression ratio is to add a Turbo, 88 Supra only has a 8.5:1 compression ratio and so does the Cruze 1.4 L. But if you drive these cars easy, where the turbo never kicks in, no problem. With these cars, the turbo is also controlled by the kind of fuel you use, low octane gives you less turbo boost and less spark advance.

If this isn't enough, started to add ethanol to fuel, where many older vehicles weren't designed to use it, causes major corrosion. Supra is this way, this is what happened to my fuel pump.

View attachment 149050


And my fuel sender.

View attachment 149058


Not to mention the fuel regulator and the injectors, a disaster. If ethanol free gas 91 octane fuel was not available, just as well pitch this car, along with my motorhome, boat, and all of my small engines. And for awhile, it was not available. Boat even has a sign by the fuel filler, DO NOT USE ETHANOL. People that have no choice depending on their area, have nothing but problems. 

Ha, was five years ago, my son purchased a new snowthrower in mid winter. Worked okay, but the following year, couldn't start the thing, he called his dealer, said he should have added fuel stabilizer. Talk about worthless advice, I pulled his carb apart, wasn't that bad, but just enough corrosion so it wouldn't start, cleaned all this off, and asked him if was using ethanol gas in this thing, said yes. Said pitch it and only buy ethanol free gas, hasn't had a problem since. 

What the small engine dealers around here are doing is charging for a replacement carburetor, a huge expense to the out of warranty customers. But never seem to mention using ethanol in these things.

Wife and I went grocery shopping last night, New Strip steaks were on sale for 11 bucks per pound. Yet another problem ethanol has created it. Too rich for our food budget, but did look at them for awhile, doesn't cost anything to look.


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## BU54 (Nov 24, 2014)

spacedout said:


> Might be due to elevation, less octane required the higher you go. Denver has 85 octane gas as their regular.


Forgot about that. Before leaving my son said elevation was 4k feet, he was at Fort Bliss. Checked the net and it said El Paso is 3.7k feet.


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## _MerF_ (Mar 24, 2015)

bluefirestarter said:


> I always get 91 from the Wawa (good coffee) near my house. I wonder if the gas is actually any decent..


I love Wawa. I lived in Virginia when I was active duty and fell in love with that place. So happy when they opened up down here.

That being said, the fact that they only care west-coast premium (91), I don't fill up there anymore. My first tank when I bought the car was 87 octane, just so I could butt-dyno the difference when I went to 93. Without any scientific evidence, I am convinced the car runs better (I'm not saying there isn't evidence, there's a lot around here that I've read). So it's been 93 ever since.


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## The_Madcat (Oct 6, 2012)

That is where a Bee goes to the bathroom when he is on the road, a BP station!


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## Beelzebubba (Apr 3, 2015)

Just that you can run on 87 in the 1.4T says a lot.

My old car was a PT Cruiser GT. Same block, head, turbo, Mahle pistons, forged rods, steel crank....etc as the Neon SRT/4.

It did not tolerate anything less than 93 octane. Back in 2008, when gas prices were $5 for premium, I tried 89. It knocked so bad. It did not pull the boost or retard the timing enough to do anything. You could get away with 91 as long as you kept the boost low.


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## cruze56 (Apr 2, 2015)

connorwm said:


> Started putting in premium after reading this and I love the results. Much smoother acceleration and the gas mileage appears to still be at least as good as on 87. Even doing 70 on the highway with AC on I can easily accelerate without having to drop a gear.


Exactly why I spend the extra.


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## dhpnet (Mar 2, 2014)

I calculated the difference last year, and it only cost me $65 more to use 91 instead of 87. I only use Chevron Supreme. The Chevron stations seem to be better maintained, and I can use my Safeway points. In my opinion it was worth the extra money to get a better ride. If it also kept my engine cleaner - bonus. 

When I had my Saturn SL I went to one of the off brand stations for a while. The car started running horribly after a few months. I switched back to Shell, and in a few months it started running like normal again. The gas mileage difference was also noticeable. I would normally get about 42 mpg in my Saturn with medium grade, and about 38 MPG with regular. I haven't had those MPG numbers yet in my Cruze. I wish they still made the Saturn SL. I also loved the plastic side panels. Never had any dings in that car like my Cruze now has.


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## Skraeling (May 30, 2012)

Yesterday my wifes auto 1lt ran like utter dogshit. Was in the mid 90's and about 98% humidity. ZERO power from stopped takeoff... it was borderline dangerous. Fortunately the tank was almost empty and dumped a whole load of 93 into it. Will see if it improves any.


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## BU54 (Nov 24, 2014)

Skraeling said:


> Yesterday my wifes auto 1lt ran like utter dogshit. Was in the mid 90's and about 98% humidity. ZERO power from stopped takeoff... it was borderline dangerous. Fortunately the tank was almost empty and dumped a whole load of 93 into it. Will see if it improves any.


I noticed a 10% increase in MPG when using 91/93 vs 87 octane. With that said 91/93 is 15ish% higher in cost vs 87.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Skraeling said:


> Yesterday my wifes auto 1lt ran like utter dogshit. Was in the mid 90's and about 98% humidity. ZERO power from stopped takeoff... it was borderline dangerous. Fortunately the tank was almost empty and dumped a whole load of 93 into it. Will see if it improves any.


This is exactly why I will not ever run less than premium grade fuel. Even on 91E0 octane premium I notice some loss of power above 80F outside. I go out of my way in the summer to find 93E10 as I don't notice any loss of power at all. 

With the AC on I still experience some loss of power, but its more like the powerband has been shifted up 1000RPM like it was programmed this way. It also is a bit slower revving in the idle-2000RPM range with the AC on, though nothing like running regular 87 octane gas.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

spacedout said:


> This is exactly why I will not ever run less than premium grade fuel. Even on 91E0 octane premium I notice some loss of power above 80F outside. I go out of my way in the summer to find 93E10 as I don't notice any loss of power at all.
> 
> With the AC on I still experience some loss of power, but its more like the powerband has been shifted up 1000RPM like it was programmed this way. It also is a bit slower revving in the idle-2000RPM range with the AC on, though nothing like running regular 87 octane gas.


I came around an uphill corner, shortly after sitting at a stoplight, in 3rd gear the other day at 1500 rpm (93 E10) and had the AC on. Do this corner all the time in other months in cooler weather and it's fine to accelerate away in 3rd. 

It had nothing to give. I reached down and pushed the AC button and a second later the car came alive. 

Point being, on hot days with AC on high, yeah, it does feel like the powerband shifts up a few hundred RPM or so. Mine does seem to be much more driveable this year than past summers though.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

BU54 said:


> I noticed a 10% increase in MPG when using 91/93 vs 87 octane. With that said 91/93 is 15ish% higher in cost vs 87.


This is almost exactly what I have concluded as well. I've decided the net roughly 5% "loss" I take by buying premium is worth it for the drivability increase I notice especially when it's hot outside.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

jblackburn said:


> Point being, on hot days with AC on high, yeah, it does feel like the powerband shifts up a few hundred RPM or so. Mine does seem to be much more driveable this year than past summers though.


With the AC off accelerating moderately(auto or manual mode) I typically shift around 2800RPM in 1-4 gears, with the AC on to get a similar amount of acceleration I need to push that up to around 3500RPM+. 

With my automatic I can still in drive with a light foot drive around the city with every gear shifting at or below 2000RPM, but with the AC on this can end up dangerous as turning a corner in too high of a gear can leave you virtually motionless for what seems like 6-8 seconds. If it was not for manual mode letting me keep my RPM up I wouldn't feel real safe pulling onto a fast moving highway. 

When hot or using the ac, I just shoot for keeping my RPM above 2000RPM when slowing down for anything, this usually means using a gear lower than my auto would normally for a given speed. This really seems to help eliminate this slow revving idle-2000RPM I get when hot outside. Strangely doesn't seem to effect my MPG at all keeping the RPM's up in a lower gear, as long as I'm easy on it.


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## Beelzebubba (Apr 3, 2015)

dhpnet said:


> I haven't had those MPG numbers yet in my Cruze. I wish they still made the Saturn SL. I also loved the plastic side panels. Never had any dings in that car like my Cruze now has.


we never got close to that in my wife's old SC2. It was maybe a mpg or two better than my old EH9 Civic EX Sedan. Neither ran any better on 93. (the Civic actually lost mpg in spite of several trips onto the big cam lobes every day.)

I always liked seeing S-Series after a hail storm. If the hailstones weren't too big, you could see which panels were plastic and which were metal. (large hail would shatter the plastic)


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## BU54 (Nov 24, 2014)

pL2014 said:


> This is almost exactly what I have concluded as well. I've decided the net roughly 5% "loss" I take by buying premium is worth it for the drivability increase I notice especially when it's hot outside.


That's exactly what I've decided. I also have a 2nd job out in the"country" where gas is 30-40c less/gallon making 93 the same as 87 here in the "city" so I fill up out there go figure. I drive the cruze to that job(plus road trip vacations)and drive my 03 S-10 pickup in town to my full time job. In the winter the cruze sits in my driveway most of the time to avoid coating it with salt.


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## Skraeling (May 30, 2012)

I still havnt had a chance to have my wifes car for a whole tank of gas to see what mileage I could get out of it (as far as reg vs premium), but the 10 year old cavalier I drive basically spanks the thing all day long mpg wise. Though I think its due to how each of us drive + I have more highway. Id really like to have the thing for a while and see what I could get out of it though, but getting her to part with her precious for any length of time haha yeahh...


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

> Yesterday my wifes auto 1lt ran like utter dogshit. Was in the mid 90's and about 98% humidity. ZERO power from stopped takeoff... it was borderline dangerous.


 This was so true when I first got my 2011 ECO MT in July 2011. The 93 fuel, gapping the plugs to spec, the performance tune, improved grounding and finally the NGK copper plugs pretty much cured the high temp/humidity/AC on - severe hesitation, at least for me. I have to say my ECO MT was the only car I ever owned/driven with such a power loss due to heat soak with the AC running.


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## Kryptzard (Jun 18, 2015)

*Running 93... no doubt*

2012 Cruze LTZ now Running 93 octane instead of 89 makes a huge difference _24 mpg to near 30 mpg,_ but i still have a fast paced loud :eusa_clap: obnoxious running tick:angry: Any suggestions? Also cleaned the engine and within a few days oil around cap at oil fill... What?


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## UlyssesSG (Apr 5, 2011)

.
*Do I Really Need Premium Gas?*

All else being equal in the 1.4L turbo Cruze, the answer is definitely yes if the vehicle's operator desires maximum performance and fuel efficiency. Performance in my 2014 Cruze RS is night-and-day when comparing 87 or 89 octane to 93 octane fuel. In my experience, opting for anything less than the highest grade is penny wise and pound foolish.


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## Hazlitt777 (Nov 2, 2013)

I want to put a plug in for 89 octane. It is a big help over 87 during the summer. Hasn't anyone noticed that? And I can buy it for only 12 cents more than 87 so I buy it. But it is around 60 cents more for 91 here in Wisconsin. ...No 93 that I have seen.

That being said, I admit when I push to accelerate fast...running at or over 3000 RPMs, I can feel a hesitation/vibration that probably could be smoothed out with 93. (I believe it is spark knock.) I could try 93 before summer is over and see if it helps there. But that is the only time I notice trouble. 

But I am getting 41 mpg all around and even got 47mpg the last time I filled up. So 89 is treating my 2014 eco MT quite well. Maybe my model handles 89 better than past models?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

> Maybe my model handles 89 better than past models?


Yes, 2014's are supposed to run better on lower octanes than past models.

That said, my car gets 89 most months of the year and runs just fine on it. Just not peppy enough for my taste in the summer with AC blasting on 89.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Kryptzard said:


> 2012 Cruze LTZ now Running 93 octane instead of 89 makes a huge difference _24 mpg to near 30 mpg,_ but i still have a fast paced loud :eusa_clap: obnoxious running tick:angry: Any suggestions? Also cleaned the engine and within a few days oil around cap at oil fill... What?


Just a WAG but check for a loose plug……a loose plug ticks compression past the threads and sounds the same as a lifter tick.

Rob


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

Robby said:


> Just a WAG but check for a loose plug


Spark plugs, that is.  Some get a "chirp" but I can see how it could be a "tick" as well.


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## zen_ (Mar 15, 2015)

I wasn't aware until reading this thread that there any advantage to running more than 87. I have noticed this week with temps climbing into the triple digits that performance with the AC on seemed sluggish in stop and go city traffic. Unfortunately in this part of the country, gas starts as 82 octane, and most stations blend in ethanol as an octane booster. There is not one station that sells 89 (mid-grade) straight gas. So like, right now the choice is...

$2.47 E10 87
$2.55 E10 89
$2.95 E10 91
$2.70 straight 87
$3.30 straight 91


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

With those choices I would put in the 91E10, my car preforms much better with the ethanol fuel.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

zen_ said:


> I wasn't aware until reading this thread that there any advantage to running more than 87. I have noticed this week with temps climbing into the triple digits that performance with the AC on seemed sluggish in stop and go city traffic. Unfortunately in this part of the country, gas starts as 82 octane, and most stations blend in ethanol as an octane booster. There is not one station that sells 89 (mid-grade) straight gas. So like, right now the choice is...
> 
> $2.47 E10 87
> $2.55 E10 89
> ...


Where are you located? In Denver the common octanes are 85, 87, and 91. All are E10. I run 91 year round.


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## Hazlitt777 (Nov 2, 2013)

I was referring to 89 E10. That is what works well in my 2014 eco MT. Try it.


zen_ said:


> I wasn't aware until reading this thread that there any advantage to running more than 87. I have noticed this week with temps climbing into the triple digits that performance with the AC on seemed sluggish in stop and go city traffic. Unfortunately in this part of the country, gas starts as 82 octane, and most stations blend in ethanol as an octane booster. There is not one station that sells 89 (mid-grade) straight gas. So like, right now the choice is...
> 
> $2.47 E10 87
> $2.55 E10 89
> ...


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## zen_ (Mar 15, 2015)

obermd said:


> Where are you located? In Denver the common octanes are 85, 87, and 91. All are E10. I run 91 year round.


I live in the eastern half of Nebraska, just beyond the range of the 85 octane shenanigans. 

Guess I'll give the 89 a try at least next fill up.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Gonna take a few tanks to feel a difference.


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## Mr. Walker (Jul 19, 2015)

Mine likes premium gas 93 octane. 
Seems to run best on Shell V-Power.
IMHO. And I'm not concerned about a few cents per gallon.


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## BU54 (Nov 24, 2014)

Mr. Walker said:


> Mine likes premium gas 93 octane.
> Seems to run best on Shell V-Power.
> IMHO. And I'm not concerned about a few cents per gallon.


Around here it's 40-50 cents more per gallon from 87 to 91-93 octane.


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## newsguy99 (May 24, 2013)

Here in Nashville, TN. Gas is 87,89,93.. And the price is around $2.39, $2.49, $2.59

I've noticed about a 2-3 MPG increase when using 93.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

newsguy99 said:


> Here in Nashville, TN. Gas is 87,89,93.. And the price is around $2.39, $2.49, $2.59
> 
> I've noticed about a 2-3 MPG increase when using 93.


I miss when i lived places it was like that. It can be $2.69 for regular here and $3.29 for 93.


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## Vetterin (Mar 27, 2011)

My local Thornton's prices are $2.57, $2.78, $2.98 but right across the street Shell is at $2.58, $2.94, $3.39. In these parts it pays to shop around..........and always has!


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

This may or may not have been covered so here it goes.
Co-worker was at a fuel station when the county auditor was certifying pump volume outputs. Asked the county tester if they checked octane as well, no is the answer. It can be done with an expensive machine but there is no incentive for them to do it. Per the county employee there is no way to know what octane rating above the min 87 you are getting out of the pumps.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Diesel Dan said:


> This may or may not have been covered so here it goes.
> Co-worker was at a fuel station when the county auditor was certifying pump volume outputs. Asked the county tester if they checked octane as well, no is the answer. It can be done with an expensive machine but there is no incentive for them to do it. Per the county employee there is no way to know what octane rating above the min 87 you are getting out of the pumps.


A 2013-earlier Cruze will be sure to let you know!

Pickiest car I have ever owned about octane/gas quality.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

jblackburn said:


> A 2013-earlier Cruze will be sure to let you know!
> 
> Pickiest car I have ever owned about octane/gas quality.


Yes, w/o a tune 87 is a pipe dream. I always wondered why people got tuned and only ran 87 happily.


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## Hazlitt777 (Nov 2, 2013)

obermd said:


> I won't be surprised to hear GM is extending this to MTs.


I don't understand what is being discussed here. They would be updating the Manual transmission? Why would they need to do this? I drive a 2014 and have no issues with it.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Hazlitt777 said:


> I don't understand what is being discussed here. They would be updating the Manual transmission? Why would they need to do this? I drive a 2014 and have no issues with it.


2014 got the updated programming to allow them to run better on 87 oct. 2011-2013 manuals don't like it so much and probably run rich at high throttle openings like the automatics did.


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## FlufflesDaddy (Nov 28, 2014)

Merc6 said:


> Yes, w/o a tune 87 is a pipe dream. I always wondered why people got tuned and only ran 87 happily.


I ran 87 through my tuned '14 LT because someone else bought me a tank. All of the low-end torque was gone and it felt like... well... crap. It felt worse than before I tuned it. Never again will I use less than 90 octane.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Finally could buy 89 octane here ethanol free, tried a tank, sure noticed the difference in both fuel economy and performance, so back to 91.

But at the same time, one cannot be so naive to believe what the pump is saying, with so many pipeline mixups today, don't know what you are getting, and what about that guy with that tanker truck that is filling the tanks?

Ha, was up north and had a choice between Shell and a Holday station, chose Shell, and darn near didn't make it home with my motorhome. Told my son about this, he goes up there all the time, said everyone up there know that Shell gas station has water in their gas. I sure didn't know this. Around here, stay far away from BP, instead of getting 35 mpg, more like 24.

Nothing wrong with your car, as soon as you get good gas again, back to normal.

Sure was fooled by voting for less government, though this was the IRS or even the EPA that would be less, not the FTC, now its every guy for himself.


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## chevrasaki (May 1, 2015)

I have the KRD code in my glovebox, which means I'm not going to put anything less than 91 in my car. Since my gas stations only offer 87, 89, and 93, I'll stick with my toptier Shell 93. 

This isn't the only reason. I ran 87 when I first bought the car and didn't know much about it. Then I installed an ultra-gauge to monitor my boost pressure and the timing advance, the engine was retarding the timing an awful lot on 87 compared to the advance I was getting with 93. This means less lug, less piston slap, and less pre-detonation. After reading up, and trying 93, I noticed a huge difference in performance and economy both for the better. I personally will continue to run 93, the extra gas mileage I get is worth the extra cost of 40 cents per gallon.


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

I have a 14 Eco 6 Speed manual with 21,800 miles, I use 87 and maybe partially because I have a manual Transmission I think the car runs well, I tried 93 a couple of times on a long trip and I personally couldn't tell that much difference. I had a 98 Camaro SS Convertible and it called for 91 or higher, I always put that in. With Cruze in the owners manual it says 87 and I have been very pleased with that. On DIC I average 40.1 Mpg and I don't always drive for max fuel economy. Plus here the 93 octane can be as much as 50 cents higher, at 40 cents higher, i.e. 87 is 1.75 and 93 is 2.15, that is 22% increase in gas price, I sure didn't see a 22% increase in fuel economy.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

Indyeco6spd said:


> I have a 14


Apparently the 14s do pretty well. They may not have that RPO code for premium gas. You may only see a difference when it gets really hot.


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## flyingvee (Jul 11, 2011)

I wanted to pip in on this one also. Have a 2001 Eco with 118,000 miles on it. And yes all my cars have always gone above 250,000 by maintaining them well. Had been using 87 octane all along as I was initially told. In the past on my modified 86 Monte Carlo SS I always used premium, about 92 octane, Sunoco would have 93. Then kept hearing abut how it was all for nothing. With me barely driving that car now I used 87 octane and did not see any difference, then again I dont drive it as hard as I did. 
Back to the Cruze, it's been a very very hot summer in the Orlando area. I noticed the car was short on power it seemed and my gas mileage had dropped from about 33-34 city to 28-29. The boost I would feel at just 2000rpm was not there till 2500. Was wondering if the turbo was going. Then read someones post here about using 91 octane and tried it. Big difference, car is more responsive, gas mileage went back to normal. I guess it makes sense. Too much heat the A/F gets screwy and the ECM is retarding the spark advance to avoid detonation. Seems the 92 octane is what it needs to keep the engine from knocking and thus the ecm having no need to retard the timing down abut 10 degrees. Kind of sucks using premium now. Way back when regular was $1:01 plus was about $1:05 and Premium $1:07. Not a big difference. These days premium is at least $0.45 more per gallon.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

For me, this is my DD and 12 gallons to fill. My project car is like 17 gallons of 91 only octane turbo with a hefty 15 MPG city rating so MPG alone justifies it if I don't take into account for lost MPG and extreme hesitation off the line from 87.


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## richdeerht (Jun 30, 2016)

Just wondering if anyone with a Gen 2 Cruze has experience with premium fuel in it.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

richdeerht said:


> Just wondering if anyone with a Gen 2 Cruze has experience with premium fuel in it.


I'm pretty sure(hope) they took the 2014 and up tune and perfected it. The fuel used by EPA and car manufacturers is a pure high octane specially used to have a "Controlled" test fuel so 87 and even 93 commercial pump may not reflect the same as projected.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

My understanding is the new generation of Ecotec engines are really designed to run on 87 octane.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

obermd said:


> My understanding is the new generation of Ecotec engines are really designed to run on 87 octane.


So are many others, but most DI turbo engines usually see slight power increases on premium gas. Ford even goes so far as to publish HP/tq ratings on regular and premium. 

The Gen 1 Cruzes ECU maps were just done very poorly. Almost no other *modern* turbo engine I've driven behaves the same way this one does on regular gas.


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

This is the time of year when the weather is between 115 and 120F daily and my 2014 does get sluggish. I just filled the tank with Safeway 91 Octane (highest available aside from Sonoco 103 octane racing fuel) @$1.89 a gallon with a 60 cent a gallon discount. I am only using 1 tank per month because I basically go nowhere. Read something interesting from the Auto Club of America about Top Tier fuel providing 19 times better protection. I don't buy it as there have been all sorts of Top Tier gas going back 100 years?


























July 2016

AAA says non-Top Tier gasoline caused 19 times more engine deposits than Top Tier brands after 4,000 miles of simulated driving.
Over time, those carbon deposits can reduce fuel economy, increase emissions and negatively impact performance, especially on newer vehicles.
“AAA was surprised to learn the extent to which detergent additives impact gasoline quality,” said John Nielsen, AAA’s managing director of Automotive Engineering and Repair.
As a result, AAA suggests that drivers go to Top Tier retailers, which add the extra detergent to all grades of fuel.
Since the overwhelming majority of drivers choose where they buy gas based on location and price, this might mean changing your habits.
“Americans are six times more likely to choose a gas station based on the price of gasoline rather than the quality of the fuel,” said Nielsen. “Since TOP TIER gasoline is widely available and only an average of three cents more per gallon, AAA urges drivers to reconsider their priorities when selecting a gas station.”


Where do you find Top Tier fuel options? They're all over! According to Top Tier, about a third of gas stations meet their fuel quality standards.
Here are Top Tier licensed retail brands, as of July 2016:

76Aloha PetroleumAmocoARCOBeaconBPBreak TimeCenexChevronCITGOConocoCo-opCostcoCountryMarkCountryMark PlusDiamond ShamrockEntecEssoExpressExxonHolidayKwik Star StoresKwik TripMahaloMFAMobilOhana FuelsPetro-CanadaPhillips 66PUMAQTQuik TripRoad RangerShamrockShellShell (Puerto Rico)Shell V-PowerShell V-Power NiTRO+SinclairStandardSuperAmericaSuperFuelsTempoTexacoTri-ParValero
In addition, some popular convenience stores sell Top Tier gasoline provided by a number of licensees. So if your favorite station isn't on this list, you can always ask an employee or check using the GasBuddy mobile app.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

One thing different about Top Tier Gasoline, compared to the historical efforts you've cited, is that Top Tier Gasoline is a standard set by a consortium of automakers. They grant and revoke the rating from gasoline retailers. 

Whereas the others cited were marketing tools used by gasoline refineries. While they may have indeed been an improvement, they were an improvement based on the refineries' own standards and not on those of an independent third party. 

Furthermore, I think that we can all agree that the needs of a mechanical carburetor are less rigorous than those of an electronic fuel injection system.


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

Tomko said:


> One thing different about Top Tier Gasoline, compared to the historical efforts you've cited, is that Top Tier Gasoline is a standard set by a consortium of automakers. They grant and revoke the rating from gasoline retailers.
> 
> Whereas the others cited were marketing tools used by gasoline refineries. While they may have indeed been an improvement, they were an improvement based on the refineries' own standards and not on those of an independent third party.
> 
> Furthermore, I think that we can all agree that the needs of a mechanical carburetor are less rigorous than those of an electronic fuel injection system.


 So true Tom although old cars pinged, do Cruzes ping or knock, and that's why we used the higher Octane, then replaced the points, plugs, condenser, rotor, distributor cap, and the list went on when the car ran crappy. Here's a snippet of a proprietary blend I found which made me gasp as I remember leaded gas, and gasping too!

 In early 1923, the General Motors Research Labs at Dayton, Ohio began testing the addition of tetraethyl lead to gasoline. Marketing experimentation began when GM teamed with Dayton Independent Refiners Oil Company to introduce an "ethylized" gas, blending tetraethyl lead with gasoline at the pump. The experiment was quite successful and in September 1923, GM teamed up with Standard of Indiana to introduce Ethyl gasoline on a large scale. The following August, GM and Standard Oil of New Jersey formed the Ethyl Gasoline Corporation to franchise the Ethyl additive to gasoline marketers worldwide. The ink had hardly dried on this agreement when lead poisoning deaths in the Ethyl plants brought about a moratorium of the sale of "ethylized" gasoline until further study of potential harmful effects could be determined
https://www.oldgas.com/info/additive.htm


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Eddy Cruze said:


> So true Tom although old cars pinged, do Cruzes ping, and that's why we used the higher Octane, then replaced the points, plugs, condenser, rotor, distributor cap, and the list went on when the car ran crappy. Here's a snippet of a proprietary blend I found which made me gasp as I remember leaded gas, and gasping too!
> 
> In early 1923, the General Motors Research Labs at Dayton, Ohio began testing the addition of tetraethyl lead to gasoline. Marketing experimentation began when GM teamed with Dayton Independent Refiners Oil Company to introduce an "ethylized" gas, blending tetraethyl lead with gasoline at the pump. The experiment was quite successful and in September 1923, GM teamed up with Standard of Indiana to introduce Ethyl gasoline on a large scale. The following August, GM and Standard Oil of New Jersey formed the Ethyl Gasoline Corporation to franchise the Ethyl additive to gasoline marketers worldwide. The ink had hardly dried on this agreement when lead poisoning deaths in the Ethyl plants brought about a moratorium of the sale of "ethylized" gasoline until further study of potential harmful effects could be determined
> https://www.oldgas.com/info/additive.htm


I remember the leaded gasoline. It had a much more appealing smell than the unleaded of today. Kids would even go up to parked cars to remove the gas cap and take a quick whiff. 

Probably the biggest reason why we don't ping anymore is that the knock sensors and related electronics are so much better. Kind of like comparing a rotary dial to an iPhone. But heck even knock sensors are something that we're first introduced in the mid-70s.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

My problem with the top tier list is that I have had problems with some of the brands on the list. The only resolution after those problems was to pay for a full fuel system and injector cleaning. I'll stick with my Safeway, which turns the tanks two to three times a week. I have a Shell near me as well but it turns it's tanks every other week or so. I'd rather have "fresh" gas.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

From the title of this article, haven't heard the words, regular, midgrade, or premium gas for many years like I think it was back in around 1977 was the last time. One brand new name that came out in 1972 was unleaded and still reading this word in owners manual, even printed on the inside of gas cap doors, use only unleaded gas.

Like where in the **** can you even find leaded gas anymore? Back in the 70's, the amount of lead used in vehicles that needed it was greatly reduced, like 10% of its original value, and the price of it was something like 2.5 times the cost of unleaded gas.

1970 Buick Riviera with a 455 CID engine was the last vehicle I owned that needed leaded premium gas that was really impossible to find, but still could find some regular leaded gas. And when unleaded gas first appeared at all gas stations, 87 octane was the only gas you could buy.










But since I still want to drive my baby, a 5,000 pound baby, but nevertheless, my baby, had to do something. Compression ratio was 10.5 to 1, all the new 72 models were dropped to 8.5:1 due to this much lower 87 octane fuel. If you didn't, couldn't even turn the engine off, detonation caused by high compression would keep the engine running, caused by the heat of compression. And talk about who is knocking at more door, was your precious engine.

Fortunately Canada never sold "premium" gas, and the cheap way for GM to sell vehicles up there was to be in a big fat head gasket, so had to import those and install them. The reason why they were adding lead to gas was to reduce the combustion chamber temperature from 2,600*F to a more reasonable 2,100, or else your valves would burn up along with putting large holes in your pistons.

To use unleaded, exhaust gas recirculation was invented to reduce combustion chamber temperatures. Instead of having 100% air fuel in your combustion chamber this was reduced down to as low as 70%, goodbye performance and fuel economy. So I was lucky to find a wrecked 72 455 with an intake manifold with the special carb and EGR valve in it. Back then was only ten bucks, could go back in the yard and pull it off myself, another thing for the history books.

With my connections, got a complete HEI ignitions system for only six bucks, this is what it cost GM to manufacture it, had the spark advance curve to unleaded standards. So I was able to drive my baby again. But this didn't last very long, outlawed studded snow tires for tons of salt on the roads, while the car still ran, was a huge pile of rust. Thank you Ahole government. And this was the first time ever I landed in a ditch, thank you again ahole government. 

Things did clam down for awhile, then more government aholes invented ethanol, the price of milk, cheese, and beef skyrocketed, so some ahole can feed their SUV. For a time ethanol was the only fuel available, had my beautiful 88 Supra at this time, that sh!t totally destroyed the entire fuel system in my new baby. Talk about someone disliking government aholes. Got buy with about a thousand bucks worth of parts, but this was due to the internet, my Toyota dealer really tried to rob me to death.

But this wasn't the only problem, all small engines suffered as well, lawn mowers, ATV's, snowmobiles, but weren't nearly as bad, just the main jets were all plugged up, and if you didn't have enough brains to clean them, would get robbed by a small engine dealer, know some people that paid 250 bucks for a new carb that only lasted a year. Dealers were telling them to add fuel stabilizer like this helped.

Finally ethanol free gas came along so I could drive my Supra again, but only available in 91 octane, it could get buy with 87 octane at a much lower price, but around here for 87 or 89 octane, practically all gas stations sell this in E10.

How is this for stupidity, "may contain up to 10% ethanol" better hope you are getting 10% or will be running about 80 octane gas that will detonate like crazy. This already happened to me at some gas stations. Reason, alcohol and gas do not mix, if it settles, will just get that low octane gas. All this BS is caused by those aholes running this country and charging us 400 bucks to replace a five buck tire pressure gauge just as one other example.

Finally realizing salt is rusting our our bridges and heaving the concrete in our roads, realizing it, but not doing a dam thing about it. 

Been 44 years of this government BS, wasn't the only thing, was paying 9 cents per gallon for LP gas, in less than one year, that shot up to $1.57 per gallon, was not regulated. With Warren Buffet laying out 6.3 billion to bride congress we have hundreds of tanker cars on old railroad tracks running through the center of our town. That evil crook, Obama blocked the Keystone Pipeline project, how can any SOB lie like this with a straight face.

That war in Iraq never got us oil, Chinese outbid us by a cent per barrel and are getting it all, and we don't even have a cent to take care of all our wounded vets. Can't even get to work or school without a vehicle, not tax deductible, but Warren is sure deducting all of his private jet costs. Hillary is another crook that will follow Obama, and the people that think that lying SOB will make life better for us better invest some money for brains.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

NickD said:


> F
> Like where in the **** can you even find leaded gas anymore?


About 1/2 the Citgo Gas station in Wisconsin sell 110 octane racing fuel, which has lead in it still. Not sure anyone would mistakenly fuel their car with it though, as its over $8 a gallon currently. Can certainly see why so many guys are converting their carburetors to E85, Can get 105 octane fuel for under $1.80 a gallon.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Was at a large dealer that sold many different types of carbed small engines with a bunch of people complaining they couldn't start theirs. Told them to drive to Wausau and buy that racing fuel to solve their problems, but would also cost you 8 bucks a gallon.

Couldn't keep my mouth shut, that is not your problem, its twofold. First, we have an EPA that forced all small engine manufacturers to get rid of the mixture controls, afraid someone would set them a tad too rich and pollute the atmosphere. Second, ethanol, builds just a bit of corrosion in the fixed jets leaning it out, can pull on that rope all day and never start it.

Around 8 years ago, one my of kids had this problem with a practically brand new snowthrower. Had to bring my otoscope along with my numbered drills down to a size 80. Could see corrosion on the inside of the jets, choke and carb cleaner does not work. Jets are cheap, pressed in, and no jet size numbers, so had to find the correct drill that fit the hole, use the butt end to clean it out. Son has been using ethanol free every since then with no problems.

His father-in-law is a bit hard headed with with riding lawn mower, takes it every year and lays out 150 bucks for a new carb.

Bu this is the major problem with leaded gas, in particular for us guys that ain't kids anymore, even though we think we are. Each and every person has a different blood brain block, that makes us aggressive and stupid when exposed to lead.

I do not feel I am that bad, just a little bit aggressive and stupid, but not certainly enough to make me run for politics. Like every leaders we had so far, way too much lead in their brains that really makes them super aggressive and really stupid. So don't blame them, blame lead in the gas. 

Feel the EPA is really loaded with people like this, and indubitably in the stupid part.

Burning our food so an SUV can run away is really stupid.


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## txcruze26 (Jul 7, 2015)

Used 89 the 1st month with the cruze, been using 93 ever since. I felt enough of a difference to keep me away from 89 even though it's costing me at the pump.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Can't imagine running regular gas with day time temperatures getting above 90F here. Problem is premium gas is averaging 75-80 cents a gallon over regular which is a bit hard to swallow. I started shopping at our local Hyvee grocery store, with their fuel savings program I've saved 40-50 cents a gallon since I started, making up at least some of that difference. I choose Hyvee since I can get that discount on Shell gas.


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## hocdvauto (Sep 12, 2016)

So where do you buy that 93 ? I want that station !


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## chevrasaki (May 1, 2015)

hocdvauto said:


> So where do you buy that 93 ? I want that station !


I've noticed it depends on which state you're in. Here in TN all of the gas stations I've ever been to have 3 choices: 87, 89, and 93. When I was in Sturgis, South Dakota, my mind was blown when I saw some of the gas stations there sell more than 3 different grades, many stations there sold all or some or the following: 85(EW!), 87, 88, 89, and 91.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

chevrasaki said:


> I've noticed it depends on which state you're in. Here in TN all of the gas stations I've ever been to have 3 choices: 87, 89, and 93. When I was in Sturgis, South Dakota, my mind was blown when I saw some of the gas stations there sell more than 3 different grades, many stations there sold all or some or the following: 85(EW!), 87, 88, 89, and 91.


Its not just a state thing(though it can be based on state laws). More likely its regional and has to due with where the fuel is distributed or processed. In Wisconsin you can go to Mobil, Shell, BP or Cenex(all top tier) and stations even across the street from each other will have 91E0 or 93E10 premium. Kwik Trip here(also top tier) only carries 91E0, but they also post labels on the pump calling it recreational fuel(I'm going to assume for boats and small engines). My local BP only has 91E0, but 10 miles in either direction I can get 93E10 at BP.

There is a pattern I've noticed though, large city's and interstate routes are more likely to have 93E10 premium. I add about a dozen stations a month to this website below, its very incomplete but the more people that contribute the better it will get. https://find93.com/

A few things to note: Western states with higher elevations may only have 85 octane gas as regular, I noticed Fords Ecoboost engine cars/trucks all say to avoid this fuel in their owners manual, kinda surprised GM doesn't have the same recommendation. We also have a few stations in this state that carry 2 premium grades on the same pump, like the image below. 










http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/members/219-spacedout-album698-stuff-picture81145-mobil-91-93.jpg


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## chevrasaki (May 1, 2015)

spacedout said:


> Its not just a state thing(though it can be based on state laws). More likely its regional and has to due with where the fuel is distributed or processed. In Wisconsin you can go to Mobil, Shell, BP or Cenex(all top tier) and stations even across the street from each other will have 91E0 or 93E10 premium. Kwik Trip here(also top tier) only carries 91E0, but they also post labels on the pump calling it recreational fuel(I'm going to assume for boats and small engines). My local BP only has 91E0, but 10 miles in either direction I can get 93E10 at BP.
> 
> There is a pattern I've noticed though, large city's and interstate routes are more likely to have 93E10 premium. I add about a dozen stations a month to this website below, its very incomplete but the more people that contribute the better it will get. https://find93.com/
> 
> A few things to note: Western states with higher elevations may only have 85 octane gas as regular, I noticed Fords Ecoboost engine cars/trucks all say to avoid this fuel in their owners manual, kinda surprised GM doesn't have the same recommendation. We also have a few stations in this state that carry 2 premium grades on the same pump, like the image below.


That's very interesting. TN must have weird laws, because as far as I know it's impossible to get ethanol free top tier gas in TN. Ethanol free gas is only sold in very few places. I've only seen ethanol free gas at farmer co-ops and off-brand gas stations. Almost all of the ethanol free stations have really old gas pumps and just look really run-down. Not to mention they charge MUCH higher prices, sometimes as much as $1.50 more per gallon. 

The top tier gas stations here (Shell, BP, Exxon, Mobil, Phillips 66) only sell E10 blends in 87, 89, and 93. I've never seen any other octane ratings even at grocery store gas stations, and non-top tier stations. I'd love to have access to a gas station like the one pictured above, or really any modern top-tier station with E0, I'd buy the 91E0 for my ninja. 

The 85 octane gas makes me cringe just thinking about it. All cars as far as I know recommend a minimum of 87 octane. I wouldn't even trust 85 in a weed eater. I can totally understand why ford urges people to stay away. GM does too but in a more subtle way. Below I have posted a picture of the Cruze owners manual about the recommended fuel.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

spacedout said:


> A few things to note: Western states with higher elevations may only have 85 octane gas as regular, I noticed Fords Ecoboost engine cars/trucks all say to avoid this fuel in their owners manual, kinda surprised GM doesn't have the same recommendation. We also have a few stations in this state that carry 2 premium grades on the same pump, like the image below.


I can tell you from experience that my 2012 ECO MT hates 85 octane, even in the dead of winter. My Safeway pumps are 85, 87, and 91. I always use the 91, even in the winter.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

chevrasaki said:


> I'd love to have access to a gas station like the one pictured above, or really any modern top-tier station with E0, I'd buy the 91E0 for my ninja.


I wish ALL gas stations in every state had pumps like that one above(or below), give the consumer the choice of what fuel they want to buy. Quite a few states have ethanol laws that require it to be in all consumer gas, the way I see it if you want/need no ethanol fuel you should just have to pay slightly more call it a Co2 tax. In Wisconsin the majority of gas stations all have 91E0 as their premium grade, you have to search out 93 octane with 10% ethanol. I've found under 6 gas stations that have those duel premium grade setups in 2 years. I was really hoping it was gonna be a trend. 

You should see the blender pumps at the local ethanol plants or some cenex stations, 3-4 hoses to choose from. Typically 87E10 91E0 and a half dozen different ethanol blends up to E85. really wish GM would make a Flex Fuel Cruze so i could utilize E35, which is 93-94 octane for less than the price of regular. 

Here's a Shell Station I found with the dual premium grade pump. 








http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/members/219-spacedout-album415-misc-picture13412-octane.jpg


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## Patman (May 7, 2011)

Yesterday on this car show I listen to on Saturdays the host(along with other consumer reporters in Cincinnati) made the following comment about: People each year waste up to $5mill on premium fuel when it is not required. When I heard that, I wanted to call in and give my 2 cents worth. Namely what we talk about with the Cruze, power and high octane fuel. Since I was unable to call in I left a message for all to read:




> This is a comment about a discussion about people "wasting money" buying premium fuel for their vehicles. This has been an ongoing topic on a car forum I am on: CRUZETALK. It seems there is a fine line between "need" and "preferable performance". I have a Chevy Cruze with a 1.4L Turbo. The first generation Cruze is midsize and honestly even though it is not required for the car to run; if I use anything less than 90+ octane fuel, the car barely has enough power to get out of its own way and it downshifts a lot to make it up hills such as Colerain Ave. So no premium fuel is not required but the car lacks seemingly necessary power to run safely(esp in hilly Cincinnati area). It seems that auto manufactures in their attempts to make smaller and smaller engines to be more fuel efficient and cost effective, don't want to make premium fuel required to run(which it is not) but then there are a bunch of "slugs" on the road if higher octane fuel is not used. But then who would buy these cars to save money if they knew they had to use higher octane fuel. So the idea of "wasting money" is a speculative statement. I have run my car with all 3 grades of fuel(87 89 and 93) and I will tell you it runs best on 93. Power and MPG wise.


We will see if I get any comments on the "flip side" about this....... like yea but is not "required/necessary"


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## chevrasaki (May 1, 2015)

Patman said:


> Yesterday on this car show I listen to on Saturdays the host(along with other consumer reporters in Cincinnati) made the following comment about: People each year waste up to $5mill on premium fuel when it is not required. When I heard that, I wanted to call in and give my 2 cents worth. Namely what we talk about with the Cruze, power and high octane fuel. Since I was unable to call in I left a message for all to read:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It takes an hour lecture to explain what octane is, and why certain vehicles with high compression ratios or turbochargers run better with 93/91 vs 87. It's not like the fuel itself is more "powerful" which is the largest misconception. It keeps engines with high compression/forced induction from suffering pre-detonation or from retarding the timing. Higher octane fuel resists pre-detonation so engines that compress air more can run at their peak performance.

I've tried to explain this to many people but I've discovered they have to be interested in the theory order to accept the information. Otherwise if they're not interested they just nod and say they agree but continue to just see 40 cents more per gallon and decide it's more expensive. Even if they suffer from lower fuel economy as a result of using 87.


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## Patman (May 7, 2011)

chevrasaki said:


> It takes an hour lecture to explain what octane is, and why certain vehicles with high compression ratios or turbochargers run better with 93/91 vs 87. It's not like the fuel itself is more "powerful" which is the largest misconception. It keeps engines with high compression/forced induction from suffering pre-detonation or from retarding the timing. Higher octane fuel resists pre-detonation so engines that compress air more can run at their peak performance.
> 
> I've tried to explain this to many people but I've discovered they have to be interested in the theory order to accept the information. Otherwise if they're not interested they just nod and say they agree but continue to just see 40 cents more per gallon and decide it's more expensive. Even if they suffer from lower fuel economy as a result of using 87.


All I can say is "yup" I leave it at that bc this guy is just on this show to help people that have no clue about cars and want a quick: This is what's wrong with your car rather than blindly taking it to a repair shop and getting "blind sided" by repair bills that don't make sense to them. I could have gone thru all that explanation but to what benefit for me and or this guy. Maybe 1, 2 or a handful of people may have gotten something out of it all. Can you image explaining the "plug gap and or the negative battery cable problems have we found. I enjoy listing to some of the problems and solutions but don't need to make him lose face. If he has a question/comment about what I said he can reply to my posting(mentions on the air next week) and I will be glad to answer.


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