# 2012 Cruze LS: Sound Difference when seats lifted up



## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

I've installed a system with the *stock* stereo.Here are my specs:

Boss D800.2 1600 watt amp
1 12' Kicker 4ohm DVC Crv12 sub w/ ported box (Port facing front with sub)
Hooked up in series and bridged to amp (8ohm load)
Using a cheap lil Line out converter.
Installed 2 crappy vr3 6x9's in rear harness to get by with hooking up the line out converter,6x9s hooked in with door speakers as well.
Ok,so those are the basics..
I have everything adjusted to my likings, (with what I got to work with.) and it sounds fine when your right in front of it.
But heres my problem..

I have the sub centered in my trunk facing the back of the car,with the port in the same direction,if your in the front seats *with the backseats down,*with what I have to work with,you can hear it somewhat fairly.
HOWEVER,the moment you lift the back seats up,it immediately basically cuts off what bass I have,unless its a real low note or your in the backseat..

So basically what Im asking here is,how to I get it to sound the same as with the seats down if I want the seats up?I havnt had this problem in my previous sedans with the seats up.Cruze's are really freakin' compact I must say.Any help/advice would be appreciated,thanks.

PS:when I get my taxes back,I do plan on getting another exact kicker CRV with a double ported box,so maybe that will help out.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

There's a lot of sound proofing and deadening in the rear seats. Try driving your car around without your stereo on but with the rear seats up and down. You'll notice a huge difference in the way the car sounds.


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah i did that and even rolled the back windows up and down,its ridiculous how bad of a ripple effect it creates when there down,but hopefully something can be figured out


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## Chevyderek72 (May 16, 2011)

Mine is better with the back seats down but it really isn't too bad at all. There isn't too much of a difference for me to want to drop them. At 8ohms how much power is the amp outputting to the sub? The only thing I can think of is that the sub isn't receiving full potential or the frequency of the box is possibly at the perfectly wrong frequency.

Sent from my DROID X2 using AutoGuide App


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## rpcraft (Jan 12, 2013)

8 ohms will only put roughly half the rated load that the 4 ohm rating is per channel unless you are running the amp bridged, at which point if it is a 2 channel amp it is seeing a 4 ohm load and is giving you what the rated line wattage is (approximately). You'd definitely be better off with a second or even an 4 ohm speaker to but I'd be hard pressed to say if it is good or bad to mix the two. Honestly until this moment I have never really considered the option.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> I've installed a system with the *stock* stereo.Here are my specs:
> 
> Boss D800.2 1600 watt amp
> 1 12' Kicker 4ohm DVC Crv12 sub w/ ported box (Port facing front with sub)
> ...


You are not giving the sub enough power. You are severely under-powering it in fact. I would say that at best, you are giving it 100W RMS of clean power. Boss amps are junk.

You might be running the sub out of phase with the rear 6x9s, which will cause bass cancellation. Try reversing the wires on the sub at the amp. 

You will never get it to sound the same with the seats up and seats down. obermd basically told you why. The rear seats are an excellent sound blocking medium. If you want more volume with the seats up, you need more power. 

My recommendation: sell the sub, sub box, and amp. The amp is junk and is under-powering the sub and the sub is horribly inefficient. Then, talk to me and I can help you get a proper system set up.



rpcraft said:


> 8 ohms will only put roughly half the rated load that the 4 ohm rating is per channel unless you are running the amp bridged, at which point if it is a 2 channel amp it is seeing a 4 ohm load and is giving you what the rated line wattage is (approximately). You'd definitely be better off with a second or even an 4 ohm speaker to but I'd be hard pressed to say if it is good or bad to mix the two. Honestly until this moment I have never really considered the option.


You cannot wire two different subs with each having a different impedance on the same channel. You can wire another sub on the second channel, but it will be a poorly designed system.


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You are not giving the sub enough power. You are severely under-powering it in fact. I would say that at best, you are giving it 100W RMS of clean power. Boss amps are junk.


I kind of figured that,but with it this way its the cleanest and doesnt have distortion.



XtremeRevolution said:


> You might be running the sub out of phase with the rear 6x9s, which will cause bass cancellation. Try reversing the wires on the sub at the amp.


Yeah,i switched them to the proper wiring based on sound. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> It will never get it to sound the same with the seats up and seats down. obermd basically told you why. The rear seats are an excellent sound blocking medium. If you want more volume with the seats up, you need more power.


Thats crazy how sealed off it makes it,makes me wonder if I added more power,it would just vibrate my trunk off and when im up in the front seat,it just gets by par,lol.



XtremeRevolution said:


> My recommendation: sell the sub, sub box, and amp. The amp is junk and is under-powering the sub and the sub is horribly inefficient. Then, talk to me and I can help you get a proper system set up.


End of the month (When I get my refund) I plan on upgrading.
New amp,yes.New box,yes.
New sub?No.Its a kicker CRV12 4dvc.I was just thinking about getting a second one and doing it that way, because the CRV series is beast and I know they can hit like crazy with the right box and amp.

So I guess alls I really need is to figure out which amp I'm going to get?I've already got a double ported box in mind.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> I kind of figured that,but with it this way its the cleanest and doesnt have distortion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't want to bust your bubble, and I'm not trying to be a snob, but nothing Kicker makes is worth the money. Seriously. There are better products out there by most companies that will give you far better performance AND sound quality simultaneously than a Kicker sub will. Their speakers are complete crap, and the only products they make that is of high quality are their amplifiers. I meant every word when I recommended that you sell the CVR12. Kicker subs are only really designed to impress people who don't have any exposure past retail products. 

Remember, you have two things working against you here. First, you are underpowering the sub, and second, the sub is horribly inefficient by design. I can produce over 10x more sound per watt of power with my IDQ15 subwoofer than your CVR12 can. Low power and an ineffiicent sub are a very bad combination. 

If you want to get loud on a budget, two SSA Dcon 15s in sealed boxes will blow you away in a respectably small boxe and will make a CVR12 look like a child's toy. Cone area is king. 

Then again, this is my advice, having designed a few hundred subwoofer boxes. 

Check out the audio articles on my website and let me know if you have any questions. 

Home & Mobile Audio - The Xtreme Revolution


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I don't want to bust your bubble, and I'm not trying to be a snob, but nothing Kicker makes is worth the money. Seriously. There are better products out there by most companies that will give you far better performance AND sound quality simultaneously than a Kicker sub will. Their speakers are complete crap, and the only products they make that is of high quality are their amplifiers. I meant every word when I recommended that you sell the CVR12. Kicker subs are only really designed to impress people who don't have any exposure past retail products.


Hmmm...Interesting.I started out with two 10' kenwoods,and thats when I upped to the one 12' kicker.And yea I figured bridgeing it and what not would kill the power to it,I tried hooking it up parellel with a 4ohm load unbridged,but I was only getting output from one side of my speakers,so it didnt really do me any good since the other side wasnt sending to the sub.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> Hmmm...Interesting.I started out with two 10' kenwoods,and thats when I upped to the one 12' kicker.And yea I figured bridgeing it and what not would kill the power to it,I tried hooking it up parellel with a 4ohm load unbridged,but I was only getting output from one side of my speakers,so it didnt really do me any good since the other side wasnt sending to the sub.


You need to get your mind away from retail products. There are a few exceptions such as Alpine and JBL, but that's the extent of it. 

SSA Dcon 12: DCON 12 Sound Solutions Audio 12" 300W DCON Series Subwoofer - SSA STORE
SSA Dcon 15: DCON 15 Sound Solutions Audio 15" 300W DCON Series Subwoofer - SSA STORE

Let me know when you're ready to get a proper system built and we can talk about parts then.


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

Well I already have the two kickers and those should do Fine depending on if can suggest the rest for me..

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8363_Kicker-CVR124-07CVR124.html

I own two of those.if you can suggest the box amp etc I'm all ears


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> Well I already have the two kickers and those should do Fine depending on if can suggest the rest for me..
> 
> Kicker 07CVR124 (07CVR12-4) 12" Dual 4 ohm CompVR Subwoofer
> 
> I own two of those.if you can suggest the box amp etc I'm all ears


The low motor strength and high moving mass will make them sound inevitably boomy unless you use a larger box for them. I haven't modeled them yet so I can't make any specific recommendations. If you want to make them sound halfway decent, they'll require significant box space. Otherwise, they will sound boomy. If you don't mind that and just want to make them sound loud, any pre-fabbed box will do. Since I have yet to come across one pre-fabbed box that is of high quality and tuned to a reasonable frequency, my recommendations would be based more on build quality than on sound quality. 

This will probably work decently well:
Amazon.com: Atrend E12DTV B Box Series 12-Inch Dual Transmission Vented Enclosure: Car Electronics

I wouldn't expect to pay under $100 and get anything of quality when you're getting a pre-fabbed box, and even then, don't expect it to last too long before it starts cracking at the seams and leaking. You could have a custom box made for them, but then you'd scratch your head wondering why you're spending $300 on a box for $70 subs. 

The low efficiency means you will need a lot of clean power. This is an excellent amp from many perspectives. It is CEA certified, and you aren't likely to find anything better in that price point. Anything cheaper won't provide enough power and will greatly increase the likelihood of you clipping your subs and destroying them. 
Hifonics Brutus BRZ1200.1D BRZ 1200.1D Class D Car Amplifier/Amp

It is better to over-power your subs than to under-power them. Wire them both down to 1 ohm to give the pair a full 1200W of power, and make sure you get some good wiring as the amplifier will probably not be more than 50% efficient at that load. In other words, 1200W of peak power going into those subs will draw 2400W of peak power from your electrical system. I recommend 2 gauge solid copper or 0/1 gauge CCA. You can buy a good amplifier kit from KNU Konceptz. 

This kit actually comes with the necessary wiring:
Hifonics Brutus BRZ1200.1D BRZ 1200.1D Car Amp + 0 AWG Amp Kit

I'm not a fan of crimped terminals as they have a huge tendency to loosen up over time (especially with CCA) and they expose bare CCA wire, which will definitely corrode after a year or two, so if you wanted to get something more secure, buy a pair of these closed screw terminals:
Knukonceptz product detail for SET SCREW RING TERMINALS - 1/0 GAUGE PAIR

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The low motor strength and high moving mass will make them sound inevitably boomy unless you use a larger box for them. I haven't modeled them yet so I can't make any specific recommendations.


 ventedSPL /deep bass (maximum enclosure volume):
2.25 ft(3) (63.7L) + port displacement
3 x 12.5" (7.6x31.8cm) port, 20.5" (52.1cm) long
power handling = 300w rms




XtremeRevolution said:


> The low efficiency means you will need a lot of clean power. This is an excellent amp from many perspectives. It is CEA certified, and you aren't likely to find anything better in that price point. Anything cheaper won't provide enough power and will greatly increase the likelihood of you clipping your subs and destroying them.
> Hifonics Brutus BRZ1200.1D BRZ 1200.1D Class D Car Amplifier/Amp
> 
> It is better to over-power your subs than to under-power them. Wire them both down to 1 ohm to give the pair a full 1200W of power, and make sure you get some good wiring as the amplifier will probably not be more than 50% efficient at that load. In other words, 1200W of peak power going into those subs will draw 2400W of peak power from your electrical system.


The only problem with this,is since its a 4 ohm sub,it only allows me to wire an 8ohm in series or 2ohm in parellel.if I wanted one ohm I'd have to get the 2ohmcvr.unless there's a way around it?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> ventedSPL /deep bass (maximum enclosure volume):
> 2.25 ft(3) (63.7L) + port displacement
> 3 x 12.5" (7.6x31.8cm) port, 20.5" (52.1cm) long
> power handling = 300w rms
> ...


I don't ever, ever go based on manufacturer recommendations, with a few exceptions. Those recommendations are always heavily compromised; most of the time to keep space down to a reasonable size. 

How is the impedance a problem? The amp is stable down to 1 ohm, so you wire each sub down to 2 ohms individually, then wire them down to 1 ohm together. No problems there.


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I don't ever, ever go based on manufacturer recommendations, with a few exceptions. Those recommendations are always heavily compromised; most of the time to keep space down to a reasonable size.


I kinda of figured,but since I have no clue where to even go with a box I thought that might've worked. 



XtremeRevolution said:


> how is the impedance a problem? The amp is stable down to 1 ohm, so you wire each sub down to 2 ohms individually, then wire them down to 1 ohm together. No problems there.


Oh,I didnt know you could make the impedance of *2* 4ohm subs into a 1 ohm load.The manual doesnt say different wiring but the 2ohm and 8ohm loads for my sub.Is there a legit diagram I could use to see how its wired?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> I kinda of figured,but since I have no clue where to even go with a box I thought that might've worked.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh,I didnt know you could make the impedance of *2* 4ohm subs into a 1 ohm load.The manual doesnt say different wiring but the 2ohm and 8ohm loads for my sub.Is there a legit diagram I could use to see how its wired?


Well, you could always have someone model a box for you to determine what would work best, but on second thought, you aren't very likely to find a pre-fabbed box that will fit the specific needs of those subs. To get the best output and sound quality out of a sub, the box generally needs to be designed around the sub. Since a custom vented/ported box would cost you over $250, your best bet might be to just go with a prefabbed box. 

Subwoofer wiring diagram for two DVC 4-ohm subs, wired down to 1 ohm:

http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutch...subwoofer_wiring/2-DVC-4-ohm-mono-low-imp.jpg


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Well, your best bet might be to just go with a prefabbed box.


Yeah, I guess I will keep my fingers crossed and hopefully will find the closest prefabbed box that will work for my subs.

Any specific difections the ports should be facing?



XtremeRevolution said:


> Subwoofer wiring diagram for two DVC 4-ohm subs, wired down to 1 ohm:
> 
> http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutch...subwoofer_wiring/2-DVC-4-ohm-mono-low-imp.jpg


Really????Wow!I didn't know this was possible.
So this won't burn the coils out if I put it in a one ohm load?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> Yeah, I guess I will keep my fingers crossed and hopefully will find the closest prefabbed box that will work for my subs.
> 
> Any specific difections the ports should be facing?
> 
> ...


Port location will not matter a while lot. 

And yes, it is possible.

The coils create the resistance. They are simply wires wound around a typically metal former (a cylindrical tube) which is then connected to the cone itself. The resistance of that coil is what we know as the impedance. Some subs have two voice coil windings, which is why we call them Dual voice coil subs. There are even some quad voice coil subs out there, but they are uncommon. 

The coils are essentially resistors. If you go back to basic high school electronics class (for those of you who took it), you'll remember what happens when you run an inductor in series or in parallel. In series, our impedance rises, and in parallel, our impedance drops. How we wire them up has only one consequence: the resistance load that the amplifier is subjected to. 

Amplifiers are only stable down to a specific impedance. If you drop the impedance too far, you can damage your amp, or it will constantly go into protect mode. The amplifier I recommended is stable down to a 1 ohm load. At that load, it provides 1200W RMS of CEA certified power, which would give each of your subs 600W RMS. 

When we discuss power, you need to remember that our RMS power ratings are *thermal *ratings. That is basically the point at which the voice coils will melt if subjected to a certain amount of power. In the case of your subwoofers, that's 300W. This is determined by the thickness of the voice coil windings and the subwoofer's ability to dissipate voice coil heat. However, what our subwoofers get subjected to on a normal basis is peak power. I have never seen a well designed system fry a subwoofer when it was driven too hard; the subwoofer always bottoms out. If you fried a voice coil, you were running far too weak of an amp. I have a very lengthy article on this by a JL Audio engineer that I can show if you want to learn more about clipping and speaker damage. 

Without getting too far into specifics, the point of all this is to tell you that you are FAR better off significantly over-powering your subwoofers. This will ensure that they always get clean power, not clipped power, and that will allow you to reliably drive them all the way to their mechanical excursion limits without frying them. That is, assuming they are of decent quality. I've seen some Kenwood and Rockford Fosgate amps rip their suspension when driven to high excursion limits, which basically means they're garbage. When you bottom out a sub, you'll know it. It will sound like a tapping, or will sound like a hammer just hit something in your trunk, depending on how bad it is.

Careful how much research you do into these topics. You might find yourself taking my advice and selling your subs.


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Port location will not matter a while lot.
> 
> And yes, it is possible.
> 
> The coils create the resistance. They are simply wires wound around a typically metal former (a cylindrical tube) which is then connected to the cone itself. The resistance of that coil is what we know as the impedance. Some subs have two voice coil windings, which is why we call them Dual voice coil subs. There are even some quad voice coil subs out there, but they are uncommon.


So then I wonder why most manufacturers(not only kicker in specific) don't show a diagram for a one ohm load for 4ohm dvc subs?



XtremeRevolution said:


> amplifiers are only stable down to a specific impedance. If you drop the impedance too far, you can damage your amp, or it will constantly go into protect mode.


I learned this the hard way...Kept goin into protect mode(at the time I didn't know why)....let's just say that was how I learned permanantly how to wire subs correctly.luckily instead it blew the coil on the sub instead of my amp (the boss amp I'm using) though.

So when I set the impendence to a 1 ohm load with these subs on,let's say that amp you showed me,if I turned it up and had that load it wouldn't go into protect or blow my subs?



XtremeRevolution said:


> The amplifier I recommended is stable down to a 1 ohm load. At that load, it provides 1200W RMS of CEA certified power, which would give each of your subs 600W RMS.


That would be pretty decent bass for my likings,I'd be satisfied.



XtremeRevolution said:


> Whe we discuss power, you need to remember that our RMS power ratings are *thermal *ratings. That is basically the point at which the voice coils will melt if subjected to a certain amount of power. In the case of your subwoofers, that's 300W. This is determined by the thickness of the voice coil windings and the subwoofer's ability to dissipate voice coil heat. However, what our subwoofers get subjected to on a normal basis is peak power. I have never seen a well designed system fry a subwoofer when it was driven too hard; the subwoofer always bottoms out. If you fried a voice coil, you were running far too weak of an amp. I have a very lengthy article on this by a JL Audio engineer that I can show if you want to learn more about clipping and speaker damage.
> 
> Without getting too far into specifics, the point of all this is to tell you that you are FAR better off significantly over-powering your subwoofers. This will ensure that they always get clean power, not clipped power, and that will allow you to reliably drive them all the way to their mechanical excursion limits without frying them. That is, assuming they are of decent quality. I've seen some Kenwood and Rockford Fosgate amps rip their suspension when driven to high excursion limits, which basically means they're garbage. When you bottom out a sub, you'll know it. It will sound like a tapping, or will sound like a hammer just hit something in your trunk, depending on how bad it is.


Lol don't worry I know quite well how it sounds,and id like to avoid that this time.I'm tired of messing with it.

According to their website.the CompVRs are there cornerstone sub and the best in their class.The subs state that the motor structure and coils are greatly tougher to where they can handle more abuse and power.So I guess I picked well for the most part.too bad I got the 4ohm dvcs..


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> So then I wonder why most manufacturers(not only kicker in specific) don't show a diagram for a one ohm load for 4ohm dvc subs?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You blew the coil on the amp probably because at the impedance you ran the amp, you were clipping the heck out of it and you fried it. Like I said, shitty amp. 

Manufacturers don't show a diagram for a low impedance 1 ohm load because not very many amplifiers you will find retail will do it. However, I don't shop retail. 

If you run the wires down to a 1 ohm load with the amp I showed you, the amp will not go into protect mode. That is, assuming your wiring and your electrical system can maintain the voltage the amplifier needs. 

A manufacturer shouldn't be telling you their subs are the greatest. People who know better will buy them without needing all that marketing. If you go to JL Audio's website, all you'll find is "we have a patent on this, and a patent on that, and we are the greatest here, and the greatest there, and we are better than all." Ask anyone who has used both a JL W6 and an Image Dynamics IDQ V3 driver and they'll tell you the IDQ always sounds much, much better. They are both priced the same, but the JL sub's page has more 10x more marketing BS and self-proclaimed excellence than the ID page does. People buy JL Audio so they can impress their friends with a brand that JL fanboys think is the best thing on the planet. People buy Image Dynamics so they can win SQ competitions and get the best value in sound quality and excellent engineering. 

Going back to Kicker, if they're telling you that this sub is their cornerstone sub, it's just marketing BS. In fact, I've go as far as to say that the sound quality and performance of a sub is, in most cases, inversely proportional to the amount of marketing hype they have plastered all over their website. The best subs out there have very little marketing and don't need to tell people how great they are; they already know.


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

Well I've never had to even come across any of this until I got this cruze,In my old vehichles I just plop in a BA aftermarket stereo,hook my system up and im happy.

Thats why Im not gonna be too pickey about the 2 kickers,thatd be fine with me.I dont want to be heard around the block.Just want decent bass with good treble.

But the sub I did end up blowing was ironically enough a boss I had recently bought,lol.The kicker on the other hand has been alright,I just need the right(close to) box,and amp that will give it the best its got.

So I guess if thats all settled,what should I use to give it the best signal and where should I tap in at?
I know you showed me that one harness,but I was wanting the elaborate details on whats best If I get that suggested setup you gave me.

I heard these were top of the line quality and I can get one cheap:
http://www.reqsound.com/


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> Well I've never had to even come across any of this until I got this cruze,In my old vehichles I just plop in a BA aftermarket stereo,hook my system up and im happy.
> 
> Thats why Im not gonna be too pickey about the 2 kickers,thatd be fine with me.I dont want to be heard around the block.Just want decent bass with good treble.
> 
> ...


Kicker is a massive step up from Boss, I will admit that. I actually ran a 12" Kicker L5 when I was starting out. I replaced that with an Alpine R12. 

This will be your best bet for an easy hook-up in the Cruze:
PAC AA-GM44 Amplifier Integration Interface for Select 2010 and Up GM Vehicles : Amazon.com : Automotive

Many of us use it, including myself, and it works well. 

How much are you willing to spend on a sub box?


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

Maybe 100 at most....probly couldn't get a decent one with that,but I don't expect to anyways.

Does it matter where I tap in at?I have the current tapped in the rear 6x9s


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ZachFools said:


> Maybe 100 at most....probly couldn't get a decent one with that,but I don't expect to anyways.
> 
> Does it matter where I tap in at?I have the current tapped in the rear 6x9s


Why not wait a while and save the money so you can do it right the first time? 

The PAC harness hooks up to the back of the head unit. If you wanted to splice into the rear 6x9 drivers, you would need a different line out converter.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## ZachFools (Jan 15, 2013)

So if I got a different converter would it be just as efficient as the one you suggested if I tapped the 6x9s?


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