# How cold does it have to be before I have to add anti-gel?



## froyofanatic (Jul 16, 2018)

I live in SoCal--it doesn't get cold here, so we don't have winterized fuel (I believe)

That being said, I can drive up into the mountains here in just a couple of hours and it will be <30F. I go skiing and park it for a few hours so it gets cold.

How cold does it have to be before I add anti-gel to my fuel?


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Depends on whether you're buying bio or not. And where you're fueling up at. Keeping in mind that semi's also need diesel and the only direction they're going is either north or east. 

If you're worried about it. $20 for insurance is a whole lot cheaper then a tow + repair bill.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Buy a bottle of Power Service white bottle. If you're headed to the mountains, splash about 1/8 the bottle into the tank prior to departing and you'll be fine. 1/4 of the bottle if you feel like being extra safe. It's $2 of prevention that will give you peace of mind.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

The car also has a fuel heater in the fuel filter specifically to help prevent gelling and assist with water separation. But it can't hurt to have additives. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

Hey @froyofanatic I just did a trip to Big Bear last week, had the same question. 

https://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/17-off-topic-discussion/239347-snow-trip-diesel-gelling.html

I ended up getting a bottle of Howe’s. Was driving the Dodge Ram Cummins, temps were 30’s when I got there and dropped into mid-teens overnight. No problem cold-starting in a.m.

Thanks to all for the help!


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## froyofanatic (Jul 16, 2018)

Thanks. Just wondering if there were some concrete numbers on this


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

No concrete numbers as bio can be produced in a number of different ways that have different gel points. 

The stuff I hauled gelled at 43*


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

They have anti-gel in our diesel, but I'm not sure how much.

We had ours gel when the ambient got down to -16F once, with a windchill quite a bit below that. Took Diesel 911 and a daytime high of a whopping +4F to thaw it.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel 

"Summer" #2 Diesel (2-D) has a Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP) of -7C/20F
"Winter" #1 Diesel (1-D) has a CFPP of -40C/-40F

 Adding No.1 fuel will lower the CFPP of No.2 fuel - adding 10% will lower the CFPP temperature by about 5 degrees C.

Additives work, however if you can find both fuels at the same location it may be easier to "mix" them to achieve the same result.
Or fill up in the colder region as the fuel will be mixed for the colder climate.


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## Phalanx (Oct 28, 2017)

just run the additive. i prefer howes for my powerstroke but the DPS (white bottle for winter) is good too.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

froyofanatic said:


> Thanks. Just wondering if there were some concrete numbers on this


Absolutely none because you are blind to what you are pumping into your fuel tank. 

Crude oil can be refined to different cloud points, gel points, and CFPP. If refineries don't make a fuel with low specs the distributors or points of retail sale can put in their own additives. But none of these things are made known to you when you are buying at the pump and it's rare to find a station where a clerk or manager on duty can tell you what is coming out of the pump nozzle.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

TDCruze said:


> According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel
> 
> "Summer" #2 Diesel (2-D) has a Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP) of -7C/20F
> "Winter" #1 Diesel (1-D) has a CFPP of -40C/-40F
> ...


Here in the USA we have no regulations requiring winter blending of fuel, just "suggestions" of what should be the specs. It's honestly rare to have a problem anywhere in the USA. Northern climates sell winter diesel with additives already in the fuel. Really cold locations (North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, etc.) offer diesel #1 at some pumps. Truckers buying in warm locations (Florida) and then going north into winter know to fill their tanks as soon as they arrive in a winter location and to put additives in the fuel.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

Barry Allen said:


> TDCruze said:
> 
> 
> > According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_diesel_fuel
> ...


I was merely paraphrasing what wikipedia stated. There are numerous blends of diesel fuels and additives sold that change the temperature characteristics of the fuel and rarely is there any ratings or info listed. 

It would appear at worst any diesel fuel can handle 20F/-7C before one has to worry about gelling.

I have never personally seen #1 or #2 listed on any diesel pump in Canada. It's just ultra low sulfur diesel ULSD. Sometimes contains up to B10 or B20. No cetane rating or temperature range usually either.

I have never had a gelling problem even at -40C here in central Canada. 

I have seen #1 and #2 diesel listed at some US pumps in the past. Most however, just sell the blended flavor of the month.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

TDCruze said:


> I have never personally seen #1 or #2 listed on any diesel pump in Canada. It's just ultra low sulfur diesel ULSD. Sometimes contains up to B10 or B20. No cetane rating or temperature range usually either.


I've never traveled through or lived in Canada but given the climate there I imagine fuel sales are serious about anti-gel additives blended in the fuel. They just do it so no one has a problem.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> Here in the USA we have no regulations requiring winter blending of fuel, just "suggestions" of what should be the specs. It's honestly rare to have a problem anywhere in the USA. Northern climates sell winter diesel with additives already in the fuel. Really cold locations (North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, etc.) offer diesel #1 at some pumps. Truckers buying in warm locations (Florida) and then going north into winter know to fill their tanks as soon as they arrive in a winter location and to put additives in the fuel.


federal and state regs follow astm 975 standards, within those standards are requirements to to meet the 10th percentile minimum ambient temperature map provided.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

TDCruze said:


> I was merely paraphrasing what wikipedia stated. There are numerous blends of diesel fuels and additives sold that change the temperature characteristics of the fuel and rarely is there any ratings or info listed.
> 
> It would appear at worst any diesel fuel can handle 20F/-7C before one has to worry about gelling.
> 
> ...


two truckstops in chilliwack bc (just outside of vancouver) are the the only #1 and #2 pumps ive seen in canada, they were in the truck lane, i didnt have a diesel car when i fueled there, so i dunno what the car pumps have for choice


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

TDCruze said:


> I have never had a gelling problem even at -40C here in central Canada.


one time in toonytown, the esso, the husky and the petro were all frozen, the pumps wouldnt work, was -51 and my reefer was having troubles running

drove the hour or so to n battleford, was much warmer, reefer ran fine, and was able to fuel up.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

boraz said:


> one time in toonytown, the esso, the husky and the petro were all frozen, the pumps wouldnt work, was -51 and my reefer was having troubles running
> 
> drove the hour or so to n battleford, was much warmer, reefer ran fine, and was able to fuel up.


Yeah I could see there being a problem at -51! 

In the summer on my travels down to the US I will definitely keep my eye out for #2 diesel pumps as it supposedly does get better fuel mileage.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

boraz said:


> federal and state regs follow astm 975 standards, within those standards are requirements to to meet the 10th percentile minimum ambient temperature map provided.


There are no federal regulations regarding winter diesel fuel. States can set standards.

ASTM D-975 does not specify any winter diesel requirements. The cloud point stuff in that standard is a suggestion only, not a requirement.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

boraz said:


> was -51 and my reefer was having troubles running


If the ambient is -51, do you need the reefer running?!


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> If the ambient is -51, do you need the reefer running?!


Yes. The reefer also heats. And there isn't a lot of food that can be hauled that cold.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

snowwy66 said:


> Yes. The reefer also heats. And there isn't a lot of food that can be hauled that cold.


I learn something new every day.

If it also heats, can it use some of that heat to keep the fuel thawed?


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> I learn something new every day.
> 
> If it also heats, can it use some of that heat to keep the fuel thawed?


The only way I"m aware of for fuel to get heat. Is when it's inside the fuel rail in the cylinder head. But I have no idea if today's systems are returnless. And if there's any other source for heat. I haven't heard about it yet. 

Refers also have their own tank. They don't run off the truck tanks. 

I haven't pulled refer since I left CDL school. 19 years ago. I"m not up to date on what all they have these days.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

snowwy66 said:


> The only way I"m aware of for fuel to get heat. Is when it's inside the fuel rail in the cylinder head. But I have no idea if today's systems are returnless.


My understanding is that all diesel engines have a fuel return. That's how injectors are kept cool with fuel functioning as the coolant that returns to the tank, with a secondary function being to keep fuel above the cloud point as it's constantly recirculated. This is for diesel engines as the motive power of vehicles, but in theory it should be the same for diesel engines that are APU generators or reefer generators as the need for cooling of fuel injectors there doesn't vanish just because the engines aren't powering vehicles.

Once a diesel engine is started and running, it's hard for fuel to gel up enough to clog injectors or a fuel filter. The injectors begin to be heated by waste heat from the cylinder head after a very short period of engine running (seconds or minutes) and the rest of the fuel system gets waste heat from the spill return. Heated fuel filters helps even more because the fuel flowing into the filter has a heater that brings the temperature above the cloud point so the filter has a very hard time clogging once the engine is running.

Returnless fuel injection is a thing only for gasoline engines. When cars used to have fuel returns it meant waste heat from the engine would increase the vapor outgassing of gasoline and that would increase evaporative emissions. Those vapors had to either be consumed by the engine with a vapor line feeding into the intake, or they were vented to the atmosphere with a huge increase of pollution. Returnless injection means the fuel is just held in the fuel rails at higher pressures than was ever accomplished with carburetors, and the increase in temperature of the fuel from waste heat just means the fuel evaporates more thoroughly when it's injected into the intake (or directly into the cylinder with gasoline direct injection).


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> I learn something new every day.
> 
> If it also heats, can it use some of that heat to keep the fuel thawed?


the fuel tank is miles away, under the trailer near the landing gear....lotsa distance for it to lose heat


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> Once a diesel engine is started and running, it's hard for fuel to gel up enough to clog injectors or a fuel filter.


nope

the only time ive had fuel gel (starting to gel, truck was sputtering) on me was while running.

pulling over and dumping a gallon of methyl in the tank and it cleared up.


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## froyofanatic (Jul 16, 2018)

I know everyone says it shouldn't be a problem, but a friend went up to Big Bear without adding anything to his Duramax and it wouldn't start the next morning. I suspect gelling. I was just wondering if there was a concrete temperature when you should start adding to our summer fuel, but it sounds like you can never really be sure. Thanks.


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## 91794 (Mar 25, 2015)

i drove 017 cruze stick in arctic conditions from boston to minnesota on its first winter, high temp was +16F, low temps were -16F (without wind chill). 

I added no power-service/anti-gel but certainly did refuel at major truck stops and did worry about gelling on those -16F nights. An F-250 at my motel 6 did gel - rookie owner had driven it north from Texas without refueling/recirculating after arrival in Rochester Minnesota. 

The only thing I wish I added to the car was BLIZZAK TIRES. Not a fuel additive . 

To the previous comment that we can have no idea the actual blend of the diesel we buy, that's not entirely true. On the -16F arctic-conditions driving to/from/in minnesota, I refueled at at least one location that my eldest son had filled the diesel tank from his fuel tanker the day before or the same day - blended the diesel with additive at the refinery/terminal as he loaded it into the tanker "pockets" (i think thats maybe what he called them.) 

ps - Minnesota is awesome.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

froyofanatic said:


> I know everyone says it shouldn't be a problem, but a friend went up to Big Bear without adding anything to his Duramax and it wouldn't start the next morning. I suspect gelling. I was just wondering if there was a concrete temperature when you should start adding to our summer fuel, but it sounds like you can never really be sure. Thanks.


You never said how cold it was in the morning in question. 

It is impossible to know 100% what temperature the fuel you buy can handle before gelling,
but any diesel fuel should be able to handle down to around 20F/-7C. 

It would be a good bet to top up at a local station once arriving at the colder destination so that some likely lower temperature rated fuel can be mixed in to reduce the risk of fuel gelling. If fuel is not available like up on some mountains, and you don't know how cold the fuel can operate, then definitely buy an additive and use it.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

eli said:


> An F-250 at my motel 6 did gel - rookie owner had driven it north from Texas without refueling/recirculating after arrival in Rochester Minnesota.


That truck didn't have to refuel at least once somewhere along the trip? I don't know a F-250 that has the range to travel from Texas to Minnesota without needing to refuel.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

eli said:


> i drove 017 cruze stick in arctic conditions from boston to minnesota on its first winter, high temp was +16F, low temps were -16F (without wind chill).
> 
> I added no power-service/anti-gel but certainly did refuel at major truck stops and did worry about gelling on those -16F nights. An F-250 at my motel 6 did gel - rookie owner had driven it north from Texas without refueling/recirculating after arrival in Rochester Minnesota.
> 
> ...


compartments

-tanker driver here


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## froyofanatic (Jul 16, 2018)

TDCruze said:


> You never said how cold it was in the morning in question.


In the teens (F). Drove from a SoCal beach city to Big Bear.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

The trucker hauling the fuel might know what HE added to the loadout. But does he know how it was brewed?

He might have some vague idea but for US. The consumer. We have no clue.


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## 91794 (Mar 25, 2015)

Mistakes can happen. The F-250 dude didn't refuel when he arrived in MN from TX, else his wouldn't have gelled up at -16F over his multiple Hampton Inn nights. Clearly his mistimed his refuels and/or he did not refuel at his northernmost destination. Maybe he had the dual-fuel tanks too, who knows. You gotta think ahead with this stuff: burn off the warmer-climate-diesel and refuel with coldest-climate-diesel upon arrival. 

No mistakes from my son the former tanker-delivery/driver now supervisor. Drivers at his place are fired for failing to report minor mistakes. Honesty is paramount. He knows everyone at the terminal and knows every processes & procedures all the way from terminal to consumer fuel tank, including the ways to test/verify/calculate what is in each "compartment", every detail of every safety procedure, in addition to 'thinking outside the box' when the going gets rough or something weird happens. He is not an engineer or physicist but asked "laymans questions" in his first week on the job relating to physics & angular momentum of the fuel compartments that prompted the 50 other drivers to all say "I've been driving for 40 years and never thought of that and barely understand it". He knows petroleum/fueling/tanker/hazmat-delivery operations & processes & procedures similar to how I know computers from transistor/solid-state/quantum-mechanics level up to the highest level languages & APIs. Also he knows all the unwritten rules/tricks/workarounds that drivers do, the stuff that isn't in any book. He supervises all the other drivers now. 

They have ways to measure what is in the compartment and to "fix" in case of a wrong mix (back to refinery and re-refine it to separate the wrong mix.)

In the tanker-driver training videos, a happy voice at the end always announces something like: "remember that the tanker you are pulling is considered a weapon of mass destruction under international law!!!"


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## steveg241 (Jul 18, 2013)

I was just up in Plattsburgh, NY where the temps went to -3F/-19C and I didn't have problems, but I also used Power Service in the white bottle. I did run into 1 station that had gelled pumps, so not everyone is cycling through fuel fast enough or getting the right blend. I had to drive another 30 minutes for a station that had diesel. I prefer to use the additive just so I don't get stranded because not everyone else is on top of things enough to ensure a low enough gel point for the nightly low temperatures.


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