# Heavy white smoke after delete



## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

After warmed up it means the tune is bad. Eitheir post or excessive boost. Really just those 2. Nothing else matters that much.

Before warmed up. Yeah. The Engine cannot work correctly without EGR and a DOC. Sorry you had to learn this way.

You can work around this in a few ways

Minor tweaks to tune to improve heat retentikn
Never use winter diesel. Instead use no 2 with additives. https://www.amsoil.com/p/diesel-all...Eau_LciwVmLuDB2ooYOAA-ci-9Zm-jAhoCqR8QAvD_BwE
Dont expect idling to warm up the engine. It won’t. Start engine. Wait a minute or 2 for the oil to warm up. And go. When it’s cold, the engine will warm up more in 2 minutes of driving than 30 minutes of idling.

But really you can safely ignore it. It does not harm the engine. And the pollution is mostly raw unburned diesel mixed with whatever water vapor there is. Which is not toxic (but the stuff you can’t see definitely is).


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## Bvogt (Dec 19, 2021)

Snipesy said:


> After warmed up it means the tune is bad. Eitheir post or excessive boost. Really just those 2. Nothing else matters that much.
> 
> Before warmed up. Yeah. The Engine cannot work correctly without EGR and a DOC. Sorry you had to learn this way.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot for the input. I may have forgot to mention that the weather is near zero by me. No diesel smell at exhaust. Do you think it will thin out eventually after I get more sediment burnt off? It’s more embarrassing than anything to be honest.

thanks again, I appreciate it


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

Bvogt said:


> Thanks a lot for the input. I may have forgot to mention that the weather is near zero by me. No diesel smell at exhaust. Do you think it will thin out eventually after I get more sediment burnt off? It’s more embarrassing than anything to be honest.
> 
> thanks again, I appreciate it


I forgot to mention some of its water vapor. Especially in those first few minutes depending on humidity. And if it's like 50 to 70 degrees F those times are really susceptible to water vapor especially if it rained a few hours prior.

But unburned diesel does not smell like partially burned diesel. It's mostly odorless until the engine heats up and then it will smell a little until it just randomly stops... Usually a little bit after ECT hits its resting point.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Bvogt said:


> I may have forgot to mention that the weather is near zero by me.


Older Diesel engines with no exhaust treatment would routinely blow white smoke after cold starts in freezing weather. This is normal behavior. Unless you're running the engine hard enough to generate boost (higher pressure/temperature) the cold fuel injecting into cold air will blow white smoke because it's not all properly combusting.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Snipesy said:


> Never use winter diesel


How do you do that? Winter Diesel fuel is what comes out of the pumps in winter.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> How do you do that? Winter Diesel fuel is what comes out of the pumps in winter.


this

there literally is no choice


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

boraz said:


> there literally is no choice


Maybe they mean #1 Diesel? Using that fuel is fine when it’s cold.


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

Barry Allen said:


> How do you do that? Winter Diesel fuel is what comes out of the pumps in winter.


Normal diesel, if possible, with additives.
Ideally: Diesel All-In-One ADB - AMSOIL. Which on top of helping prevent gelling, increases cetane which can sorta help this issue.

You can certainly use winter diesel with additive, but this makes for some expensive fuel. Unfortunately, there is a lot of variation in additive packages and ratio of Kersone to diesel (#1/#2) in winter fuels. So, it's a realm YMMV with winter fuels. In fact, this variation alone could be why some people get this issue while others do not.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> Maybe they mean #1 Diesel? Using that fuel is fine when it’s cold.


you go somewhere like chilliwack, near vancouver where its warm, they have 1 and 2 pumps, 2 if youre local, 1 if youre heading into the deep freeze in the mountains

but everywhere else theres a diesel pump, and it has winter fuel (or 1) in the winter, cant get around that

you dont want to get around that, lol


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

boraz said:


> you dont want to get around that, lol


Well, I mean, you eventually _won't_ when the fuel gels.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Snipesy said:


> Normal diesel, if possible, with additives.
> 
> You can certainly use winter diesel with additive, but this makes for some expensive fuel.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Around me the pumps say the fuel is winterized down to -10ºF (with additives, probably) and if you want more protection they sell stuff in the store.

It is winter diesel and you are at the mercy of whatever the truck driver or the store attendant put into the mix when they either loaded the fuel at the rack or when they're dumping the fuel into the underground tank.

Power Service white bottle is $9.99 for the 64 ounce bottle and then there is a $10 mail-in rebate. It's literally $10 for a gallon of PS that I can dose into the tank with each fuel up. It's very cheap insurance.


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

Barry Allen said:


> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> Around me the pumps say the fuel is winterized down to -10ºF (with additives, probably) and if you want more protection they sell stuff in the store.
> 
> ...


It’s more about not having kerosene. Kerosene has a lower cetane…. And lower lubrication.

Thus it would take more additive to counter a winter fuel.

But we’re being really nit picky here. The smoke does not harm the engine, and basicially all diesels do it when running kerosene to varying degrees.
Normally it would just collect in the DOC and DPF and burn off in a few minutes. But without those….. Poof. Off it goes.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Snipesy said:


> It’s more about not having kerosene. Kerosene has a lower cetane…. And lower lubrication.
> 
> Thus it would take more additive to counter a winter fuel.


If I had access to a fuel pump dispensing actual, real, swear-to-God #1 Diesel fuel, I wouldn't have to use winter additives. It wouldn't suffer from gelling.

I live in an area where we get very cold weather during some parts of winter, but where it's not cold enough to have dedicated #1 Diesel pumps for winter fuel. The only mention I've ever seen was when I had a hard start with fuel from an oil company I was patronizing to buy from their fuel dispensers because I know several people who work there. I was told via email that they saw predictions of -18ºF temperatures in the area and they blended their fuel at that station with a mix of additives and #1 Diesel to be good to those temperatures. I had filled my tank and drove north to where the overnight low was -25ºF and had starting issues in the morning. It was not too dramatic, though - just about 20 seconds of cranking and firing until the engine finally caught running.

I guess that oil company has supplies of #1 Diesel, to blend with their #2 Diesel and heating oil for delivery to customers. I live somewhat near Amish country and I see houses that have oil tanks outside the home for heating fuel, so I assume they are getting deliveries of kerosene for that so it doesn't gel up when exposed to outside temperatures. Heating oil tanks are supposed to be indoors (basements preferred) for more stable storage temperatures and to keep sunlight from heating the oil inside. You never have a problem with heating oil gelling up if your tank is in a basement and the absolute coldest it gets might be about 40ºF.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

A guy in my parents' neighborhood used to own a couple Ford pickups with the 6.9 IDI engines. He was practically a wizard of Diesel engines and using them in cold weather. His preparation included some "marine grade" glow plugs that I don't know where he got them (and maybe they aren't even made any longer) and custom wiring with those plugs so he could turn them on and off as necessary. For cold starts when he wasn't anywhere that he could plug in a block heater, he could leave the plugs off and safely/correctly use some ether starting spray for an easy cold start. When he was plugged in he could turn on the plugs for starting and also leave them on for extended (maybe 5-10 minutes) running while he was first driving the truck to warm the engine up. Having the plugs on for another 5-10 minutes cut down on some of the white smoke and made sure combustion was stable until the engine temperature gauge was starting to get warm.


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## Bvogt (Dec 19, 2021)

Barry Allen said:


> A guy in my parents' neighborhood used to own a couple Ford pickups with the 6.9 IDI engines. He was practically a wizard of Diesel engines and using them in cold weather. His preparation included some "marine grade" glow plugs that I don't know where he got them (and maybe they aren't even made any longer) and custom wiring with those plugs so he could turn them on and off as necessary. For cold starts when he wasn't anywhere that he could plug in a block heater, he could leave the plugs off and safely/correctly use some ether starting spray for an easy cold start. When he was plugged in he could turn on the plugs for starting and also leave them on for extended (maybe 5-10 minutes) running while he was first driving the truck to warm the engine up. Having the plugs on for another 5-10 minutes cut down on some of the white smoke and made sure combustion was stable until the engine temperature gauge was starting to get warm.





Bvogt said:


> Hello all, after a full delete on my 14, I am getting exercise white smoke out of the exhaust. It is kind of sporadic. Not sure if it is a coincidence that this happened at the same time as delete.
> 
> oil looks good, no metal or milky color
> No overheating
> ...


new development/adventure. The smoke is now like a mosquito fogger and I have oil dripping from my tail pipe and sprayed on the back of my car. Compression is still good/consistent (can’t get a true measurement because the glow plugs are standard thread and my tester is metric, and I haven’t been able to find a correct one. I just have to hold the adapter in my hand and crank). Oil still looks good and no drop in level (only ran it for 30 miles or so).
Power is good, no abnormal lifter rattle. Hard to determine if it will overheat because it’s 10 here and deleted.

either head gasket or turbo I’m thinking. Too much to be a valve train issue I think. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

It seems incredibly suspicious that you tuned/deleted and then you think it's a head gasket or turbo seal. The odds of those happening at the same time are very low. It's not impossible, just extremely unlikely.

Maybe it's just a wonky tune that doesn't work well when it's REALLY cold outside. You're just getting white smoke from incomplete combustion and it's Diesel fuel oil from a wet stacking effect due to the cold.

Try blocking off the charge air cooler. If it's really cold, you don't need that. You want the increased temperature of the intake air from the turbo compressing it to help give you more complete combustion in the cylinders.


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## Bvogt (Dec 19, 2021)

Barry Allen said:


> It seems incredibly suspicious that you tuned/deleted and then you think it's a head gasket or turbo seal. The odds of those happening at the same time are very low. It's not impossible, just extremely unlikely.
> 
> Maybe it's just a wonky tune that doesn't work well when it's REALLY cold outside. You're just getting white smoke from incomplete combustion and it's Diesel fuel oil from a wet stacking effect due to the cold.
> 
> Try blocking off the charge air cooler. If it's really cold, you don't need that. You want the increased temperature of the intake air from the turbo compressing it to help give you more complete combustion in the cylinders.


Hey Barry, this is my rationale. Albeit I could be way over thinking this. 
Car was in and out of limp mode at time of delete (plugged dpf, various sensors ect along the way).

at first I thought the smoke may have been just burnt off buildup over the years. However it rapidly got worse and was throwing oil out of the exhaust (possible turbo seal)

then I think that because the dpf was clogged and later (after I cracked open the throttle valve and saw it was caked in 3/4 inch of nastiness) think that the motor was getting too pressurized and creating blow by.

does any of that rambling make any sense?

ill know more when I removed the valve cover and see if there are any obvious surprises in there. Your insight would be helpful, I’ve seen you a lot on here and you seems to have forgotten more than I know.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

With all the miles on your car and all the emissions problems prior to deleting, you will probably have to do a lot of cleaning the intake. It’s almost certainly snotted up with diesel soot and will need a thorough cleaning to renew it. After that, then diagnose what problems you might have.


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## Bvogt (Dec 19, 2021)

Barry Allen said:


> With all the miles on your car and all the emissions problems prior to deleting, you will probably have to do a lot of cleaning the intake. It’s almost certainly snotted up with diesel soot and will need a thorough cleaning to renew it. After that, then diagnose what problems you might have.


Thanks. Yea, that’s gotta get done anyway. Might drop the exhaust manifold too and might be able to see any pronounced, cylinder specific, issues (oil soaked ect) and scope it out. I’ll let you know. Might have to let the weather warm up a bit though. Cold electrical connectors love to crack in the cold


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## D1ESEL (Apr 11, 2021)

Snipesy said:


> It’s more about not having kerosene. Kerosene has a lower cetane…. And lower lubrication.
> 
> Thus it would take more additive to counter a winter fuel.
> 
> ...


Lubrication comes from the sulfur in the diesel fuel itself. Once they went to 15 ppm sulfur in the fuel, the lubrication went bye bye. The lower sulfur ppm is achieved by running a hotter temperature in the reactor section part of the process. A lubricity additive is added to the fuel where I work. I can't speak for other refineries though.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

D1ESEL said:


> Lubrication comes from the sulfur in the diesel fuel itself.


It does not.

What removing the sulfur from Diesel fuel does is strip the fuel (or chemically change it) of lubricity as a side effect of the refining process. It's a myth that the sulfur in the fuel was a lubricant.


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## D1ESEL (Apr 11, 2021)

Barry Allen said:


> It does not.
> 
> What removing the sulfur from Diesel fuel does is strip the fuel (or chemically change it) of lubricity as a side effect of the refining process. It's a myth that the sulfur in the fuel was a lubricant.








Ultra-low Sulfur Diesel Fuel Affects Lubrication


Most diesel fuel sold at retail locations in the U.S. is ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel that has different lubricating qualities than diesel previously available.




www.ag.ndsu.edu


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

D1ESEL said:


> Ultra-low Sulfur Diesel Fuel Affects Lubrication
> 
> 
> Most diesel fuel sold at retail locations in the U.S. is ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel that has different lubricating qualities than diesel previously available.
> ...


Yes, that article states: *"However, the process used to reduce the sulfur content in diesel also reduces the fuel's lubricating properties, resulting in increased wear on the various parts of the engine's fuel injection system.”*


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## Diesel4Ever (May 30, 2018)

D1ESEL said:


> Lubrication comes from the sulfur in the diesel fuel itself. Once they went to 15 ppm sulfur in the fuel, the lubrication went bye bye. The lower sulfur ppm is achieved by running a hotter temperature in the reactor section part of the process. A lubricity additive is added to the fuel where I work. I can't speak for other refineries though.


The lubricating abilities of LSD actually come from the aromatic hydrocarbons which are nearly removed by the ULSD refining process.


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## D1ESEL (Apr 11, 2021)

Who's gonna throw the next trump card?


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## Bvogt (Dec 19, 2021)

With all that said, I have yet to tear into the car. It is way too cold out. Could the oil out of the exhaust and smoke possibly be blow by that could be remedied by the addition of a decent catch can? The intake was caked with that soot/film mixture buildup after all these years. I plan to remove and clean that as well as remove and inspect the valve cover as well. I’d love to drop the oil pan too. That’s gonna be a pain in the ass from what I’ve read on alldata


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Bvogt said:


> I’d love to drop the oil pan too.


If you drop the oil pan you will have the opportunity to install a nice oil heater for use in cold weather. Instead of the stick-on pan heaters you could take the pan to a machine shop, have a hole drilled and threads tapped, and get one of those immersion heaters. They sell them as low as 50 watts and you could easily use that without a thermostat and you wouldn't have to worry about overheating the oil (50 watts won't do much other than warm it).


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