# To add or not to add K&N air filter



## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

Do resonator delete keep your factory filter. Been proven to have no add performance. I will be changing mine back to stock as soon has I can find the air box assembly. 

Sent From My Galaxy Note 3.
Which is bigger than my hand.


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

No consequential performance increase over simply bypassing the resonator. Just sound and cosmetics. 

Sent from mobile.


----------



## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

2014corvette said:


> If I add K&N air filter to my Cruze LTZ will I realize noticable performance?
> 
> Tom:tempted:


Nope. I have used 2 K&N panels in cars before. No difference whatsoever, waste of $ IMO.

You may get a little more sound - there's a foam insert in the factory airbox to reduce intake noise a little bit.


----------



## 2014corvette (Nov 4, 2013)

Thanks for the information.


----------



## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

H3LLON3ARTH said:


> Been proven to have no add performance.


This.

My Mustang's MAF Sensor went to crap because of a K&N Filter's oil. I rather use stock or another brand than mess up my engine. They are also known for filtering less than an OEM filter, which is dumb, because well you can't afford to have any dirt in there. 

My two cents. Google is your friend  it's all there. Wait for a gearhead to chime in, you will get the same answer, but more technical.


----------



## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Sure if you have 257 bucks to blow.

69-4521TS - K&N 69 Series Typhoon Kits, Performance Intake Kit direct from K&N

Being more honest now:

"Horsepower gains based on similar vehicle dynamometer test. Results will vary. "

Ha, gaining performance by either changing the air filter or the muffler. Can't do anything with the cat, that is illegal nor not much of anything else.


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> No consequential performance increase over simply bypassing the resonator. Just sound and cosmetics.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


And potential problems down the road. The K&N filters don't trap as much or as small sized particles as the OEM paper filters.


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Ok this must be the reason I did not jump on that band wagon to rush out and change up my Intake 2 years ago when every one was crying that there aren't enough Mods to do to the Cruzen .. Good Thing those comparisons were published .. To all of the Goof Balls whom are thinking twice about this cosmetic Mod Good Luck ..

I guess that spooling sound is not all that important to hear . Looks Good though ...


----------



## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

obermd said:


> And potential problems down the road. The K&N filters don't trap as much or as small sized particles as the OEM paper filters.


Yes but that's why you oil it but I am getting off the K&N band Wagon myself.

Sent From My Galaxy Note 3.
Which is bigger than my hand.


----------



## MilTownSHO (Oct 9, 2013)

Waste of money


----------



## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

This statement caught my eye:

"TUV Approved (Europe): *No*"

This is because Europe has stricter emission requirements than the US. Questioned why we not importing these high fuel mileage cars from Europe, GM and Ford makes them. Was told they don't meet our EPA standards by the EPA. Is this because their standards are stricter than ours? 

Still waiting for the answer.

But being a cynical paranoid conspiracy theorist like I have become. Suspect the oil companies had a say in this. They like getting four bucks a gallon for gas.

Being a bit optimistic, least we were fortunate to get a Cruze. But now, sure not very happy with this winter gas. This all deals with a slightly extended warmup time. Why not two tanks, one for warm up, the other for warmed.


----------



## NYCruizer (Jul 10, 2013)

Cold Air Intakes Mythbusted - YouTube

or

POD Filters Mythbusted - YouTube


----------



## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

I've used K&N drop ins since 1992 with no problems to any of the engines. yes, there may be limited or no hp or mpg gains, but that's not the real reason I install them. I keep my cars for ten years or longer. Way longer than the break even point of throwaway air filters. Also, tip in and throttle response is noticably improved with this car I just installed it in.


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Jim Frye said:


> I've used K&N drop ins since 1992 with no problems to any of the engines. yes, there may be limited or no hp or mpg gains, but that's not the real reason I install them. I keep my cars for ten years or longer. Way longer than the break even point of throwaway air filters.


Chrysler is now denying warranty claims when they discover turbo damage and dirty or "dusted" intakes in Cummins diesels. It just so happens that in 95%+ of those cases, a K&N filter is used. 

Not on my turbo engine.

Sent from mobile.


----------



## Patman (May 7, 2011)

iKermit said:


> This.
> 
> My Mustang's MAF Sensor went to crap because of a K&N Filter's oil. I rather use stock or another brand than mess up my engine. They are also known for filtering less than an OEM filter, which is dumb, because well you can't afford to have any dirt in there.
> 
> My two cents. Google is your friend  it's all there. Wait for a gearhead to chime in, you will get the same answer, but more technical.


I had the K&N panel filter but ended up selling waiting for what Danny was talking about. The car saying where is this oily air coming from and killing my MAF sensor. MPG didn't really change that much. There was minimal throttle response difference. I think XR is right to just do the reso bypass if you are looking for sound. I don't know the technical reasoning but I noticed my car runs better stock air filter. There are many threads on the internet, not just this forum that say the same thing.
waste of money.


----------



## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

If you use any low restriction filter, oiled or not, you will see dust accumulating inside the intake hoses.
If you can hear intake roar through a filter it is not filtering as well as the filter it has been exchanged for....I didn't make that up...the dusting tells the tale.
A low restriction filter MAY improve performance at the very top of the rpm range.....a rpm seldom seen on a street engine.
Otherwise, I consider it a detriment to long engine life......screw the maf sensor, I'm talking ring and cylinder wear here.

Based on real life observations of a 63 year old mechanic......me,
Rob


----------



## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok I understand that they don't produce more power but if you oil correctly then there is a slim chance that you will destroy your motor I do not state that it won't happen but K&N wouldn't guarantee there products like they do. 

http://www.knfilters.com/mobile/warranty.htm

Sent From My Galaxy Note 3.
Which is bigger than my hand.


----------



## NYCruizer (Jul 10, 2013)

H3LLON3ARTH said:


> Ok I understand that they don't produce more power but if you oil correctly then there is a slim chance that you will destroy your motor I do not state that it won't happen but K&N wouldn't guarantee there products like they do.
> 
> http://www.knfilters.com/mobile/warranty.htm
> 
> ...


The problem with all warranties like that is you have to prove their product caused the damage - read the "fine print"
1.	The consumer must provide a written statement or repair order from the dealership or service provider in which the dealership or service provider blames the problem or warranty denial on a K&N product;
2.	The service provider or consumer must provide K&N with all allegedly damaged parts. Many states have laws that require a service provider to retain all parts replaced during a vehicle repair, unless given consent to dispose of the parts by the consumer. K&N will pay the shipping cost to recover these parts; and
3.	[/COLOR]The consumer must provide proof of purchase of the K&N product along with cooperation in helping us investigate the claim.

I highly doubt you'd ever be able to pull any of that off. How many used ones are for sale where the seller doesn't have the box, and how many of you have receipts that don't turn to plain paper within a few weeks. With those restrictions on the warranty, they'd never have to pony up - and that being the case they could advertise that they've never had a substantiated claim.

Even you state "if you oil correctly..." - even if you do oil correctly, do you think they won't claim you didn't or make you prove you did? Where are your receipts for the oil, prove you cleaned it. Prove you didn't run without a filter for a spell. How far would you be willing to go to try to get them to pony up? The warranty isn't worth anything more than trying to make more sales.


Not trying to start or perpetuate an argument, just expressing my point of view.


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Regardless of the procedure necessary, it isn't worth the headache for a 1-2hp increase. It just isn't. There is no point to it when actual warranties have been denied in other engines due to the use of these filters. 

I'll stick with my tried and proven dry filters. As far as intakes go, the Injen intake is the only valid option since it uses a very good Amsoil EA filter. Last I checked, the ZZP intake uses a K&N filter. 

Sent from mobile.


----------



## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

NYCruizer said:


> The problem with all warranties like that is you have to prove their product caused the damage - read the "fine print"
> 1.	The consumer must provide a written statement or repair order from the dealership or service provider in which the dealership or service provider blames the problem or warranty denial on a K&N product;
> 2.	The service provider or consumer must provide K&N with all allegedly damaged parts. Many states have laws that require a service provider to retain all parts replaced during a vehicle repair, unless given consent to dispose of the parts by the consumer. K&N will pay the shipping cost to recover these parts; and
> 3.	[/COLOR]The consumer must provide proof of purchase of the K&N product along with cooperation in helping us investigate the claim.
> ...



OK cool so now that you had you fun do you know how to oil a K&N filter I do. And if you read correctly it states every 50,000 miles on when to oil it what people do is they oil them to early thats how you over oil. 

My statement was to not intended to start an argument either but it made you want to pinpoint every little detail out. Now I still habe my K&N on and will probably remove it for a custom designed ram air styled intake but that's in the future.


Sent From My Galaxy Note 3.
Which is bigger than my hand.


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I also read the K&N warranty (on their site) and came to the conclusion that there are so many hoops to go through to get a warranty claim paid by K&N that it's just not worth the risk.


----------



## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Chrysler is now denying warranty claims when they discover *turbo damage*...


This is the big one for me - damage to the turbo. The compressor wheels spin so fast that any dust or silt getting through the filter causes an impact that wears the leading edge of the compressor's vanes. Enough wear and structural failure can occur, and when a turbo lets go it can toss metal fragments into the engine...

If what I've read is accurate the Cruze's turbo can exceed 200,000 RPM. Taking a wild a$$ guess that the compressor's inlet diameter is 33mm (should be close), the tip velocity at the inlet is over 1,100 feet per second, or over 760 MPH (approaching the speed of sound). Any particles getting past the filter are sure to do some damage going through that turbo.

As far as the engine goes I'm not sure how much damage these tiny particles can do, but certainly the cleaner the air is the better it will be for engine longevity.


----------



## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Regardless of the procedure necessary, it isn't worth the headache for a 1-2hp increase. It just isn't. There is no point to it when actual warranties have been denied in other engines due to the use of these filters.
> 
> I'll stick with my tried and proven dry filters. As far as intakes go, the Injen intake is the only valid option since it uses a very good Amsoil EA filter. Last I checked, the ZZP intake uses a K&N filter.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


While they certainly filter a lot better than K&N, the media *STILL* does not filter as well as a stock AC Delco filter in most cases, and the same warranty claims could be denied.

Paper just filters better than fibers. Period. 

K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better)

If you want an intake, it's purely for the sound - which, I'll admit, does sound kinda cool on a turbocharged car.


----------



## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

Since I've never owned a turbo engined car, I forgot all about the issues regarding them in this scenario. With this latest K&N, I did notice something when I took it out of the packaging. It was rather slimey. I wrapped the filter in two layers of white paper towels and laid it on a board with some small sandbags to ensure the towels made contact with the filter. Eight days later, the paper toweling was pink all over. Not so much that you could wring them out, but the oil had bled all through them. Even the rubber/vinyl molding was wet with the oil. That's over oiled right out of the box.


----------



## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

260 bucks I saved from not buying this air filter will give me 2,700 miles of driving. If I was lucky enough to get 1 mpg more with this filter, payback would occur after about 120,000 miles of driving. Or at my current rate, about ten years. And at this time, the car wll be a pile of rust with this crazy road salt.

Would be far better off if I could drive 7 mph slower, but still have demands made on me, even though I am suppose to be retired.


----------



## NYCruizer (Jul 10, 2013)

H3LLON3ARTH said:


> OK cool so now that you had you fun do you know how to oil a K&N filter I do. And if you read correctly it states every 50,000 miles on when to oil it what people do is they oil them to early thats how you over oil.
> 
> My statement was to not intended to start an argument either but it made you want to pinpoint every little detail out. Now I still habe my K&N on and will probably remove it for a custom designed ram air styled intake but that's in the future.
> 
> ...


Sorry, didn't mean to imply YOU didn't know what you were doing, I meant "you" more in a general sense of the term. And I apologize if you're of the impression that I was picking on you; I only copied and pasted the section of their warranty to show the P.T. Barnum/David Hannum-esque nature of those kinds of warranties in general.


----------



## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

Oh yea I do t take offense to anything said on forum anymore. I understand that warranting are act here to protect the business from the consumer. But it states specifically that the intervals ti oiling is no were near what people do. But like I stated before it's just some thing to make some noise.
Sent From My Galaxy Note 3.
Which is bigger than my hand.


----------



## ChevyAllDay (Jul 24, 2013)

i actually took my K&N out. I much prefer the stock. ill be honest i got it mainly cause i knew the turbo would have a louder sound, but after a while, i got over it and i got tried of people being able to hear the turbo and assume i was ready to race them, AND as if the sound was from a HUGE TURBO. I just did the resonator delete, and put back the stock box.


----------



## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

What did my wife and I test drive? Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, and Chevy as I recall.

Which car was hands down, the quietest? The Cruze of course, others weren't even close, so why would you want to wreck this key feature?

Ha, you want noise, sure you can download an MP3 somewhere, will have to do a search. Or maybe someone else knows, really don't want noise.


----------



## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

NickD said:


> What did my wife and I test drive? Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, and Chevy as I recall.
> 
> Which car was hands down, the quietest? The Cruze of course, others weren't even close, so why would you want to wreck this key feature?
> 
> Ha, you want noise, sure you can download an MP3 somewhere, will have to do a search. Or maybe someone else knows, really don't want noise.


LOL even with the ECO, bypass and foam delete is still a faint sound of turbo. My issue wasn't engine noise(seeing that a few of us rely on noise over the tach when shifting) it was more of road and wind noise. I've driven my fair share of uber loud drone prominant exhaust systems to know a full out TBE w/o cats and resonators is not my cup of sweet tea. An intake or just filter as this thread is for would be that small step into the hearing my car perform and feeling like I did something awesome to the seat of my pants catagory. 

In short we like more noise where most car owners wnat no noise. Kinda the main reason the Dart Rallye has an exhaust note and we have the sound of moving air from a hidden exhaust tip behind an RS bumper cover.


----------



## Chase Toole (Feb 4, 2013)

I've read this entire thread and I believe it depends on the engine. I owned a 2006 Trailblazer SS that had a 6.0 LS2 V8 and when I replaced the stock intake with the K&N SRI the difference was obvious as soon as I started the truck. Maybe 4 cyl engines are too weak to utilize the extra airflow it something? Can any of you geardos tell me if that's the reason or why some cars see an increase and others don't?

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


----------



## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Chase Toole said:


> I've read this entire thread and I believe it depends on the engine. I owned a 2006 Trailblazer SS that had a 6.0 LS2 V8 and when I replaced the stock intake with the K&N SRI the difference was obvious as soon as I started the truck. Maybe 4 cyl engines are too weak to utilize the extra airflow it something? Can any of you geardos tell me if that's the reason or why some cars see an increase and others don't?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


IF you notice any power gain, it is just because it "tricks" the mass airflow sensor (air passes the sensor element differently), probably causing your truck to run lean.


----------



## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

jblackburn said:


> IF you notice any power gain, it is just because it "tricks" the mass airflow sensor (air passes the sensor element differently), probably causing your truck to run lean.


W/o a tune, Subarus tend to run lean as well. 


Sent from AutoGuide.com App


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> IF you notice any power gain, it is just because it "tricks" the mass airflow sensor (air passes the sensor element differently), probably causing your truck to run lean.


Many people also remove a very dirty filter when they install a K&N. 

Sent from mobile.


----------



## iKermit (Dec 13, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Many people also remove a very dirty filter when they install a K&N.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


Yup. So of course you will feel a difference, there was no air going through, or just enough to keep everything fine.


----------



## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Chase Toole said:


> Can any of you geardos tell me if that's the reason or why some cars see an increase and others don't?


Every car is different, but they will all see small power gains by replacing the OEM filters with less restrictive aftermarket ones. The question is, are the gains worth it?

Also, we need to consider two different modifications, one being a simple filter swap and the intake being a replacement for the entire intake airway.

A simple filter swap will eliminate much of the restriction caused by the stock filter. A filter swap is usually good for about 5-10 hp on a big v8, or roughly a 1-2% power increase. Not much, and when you scale that down to a small 4 cylinder car you're likely talking 1-3 hp which is insignificant and not even possible to validate with a dyno since run-to-run variations usually vary by more than that. Statistically it's "noise".

Changing an intake can make larger gains than a simple filter swap because the restriction in the factory piping (which often includes noise reducing baffles/chambers etc.) is eliminated. It's not uncommon to see 20 hp gains on large engines, but again that is only working out to gains in the 5% arena which works out to 6-8 hp on small engines.

Complicating things are the claims made by intake manufacturers, many of whom will take the worst dyno run before the intake and the best one after and then publish the "peak" power difference between the two. Others will tune the car in addition to adding their intake and then claim gains "up to" a certain amount. As a general rule I usually take a manufacturer's claimed power improvement and divide by 2.

Any air intake also stands to corrupt the air flow through the Mass Air Flow sensor and cause variations in air/fuel ratios in open loop operation (WOT). This may even be done on purpose by the intake manufacturer since leaning out the A/F ratio of an engine tends to increase power. In the case of the intake actually replacing part of the MAF sensor, the intake may or may not have the same flow characteristics and/or cross sectional area of the OEM MAF sensor whether intentional or not.

The main thing to consider with intakes is that they provide power increases by reducing restriction to airflow, which by definition means that they have their greatest effect at the engine's maximum power level and taper off very quickly before that. If your engine makes peak power at 6000 RPM, the effect of the intake is mostly lost below 4500-5000 RPM. So you're paying for a small increase in airflow which only benefits the engine at the uppermost limit of its operating speed. Unless you're racing and looking for that last 10th of a second, it doesn't make too much difference.

Most of the low hanging fruit has long been picked as far as simple power increases are concerned. OEMs are under immense pressure to put advertising numbers up so their cars look better than the competition. The good ol' days of 20 hp intake and exhaust system upgrades are pretty much behind us, and the OEM equipment is generally very well designed and doesn't leave a whole lot on the table.
And the last point is filtration efficiency. As I stated earlier, there is not much public knowledge of how much potential damage can be caused by allowing "dirty" air into an engine as far as damage inside the combustion chamber goes, but there IS evidence that it can cause significant damage to the high speed parts of a turbocharger.

Being a little older and wiser than I once was, I'm no longer chasing every last single hp from my 4 cylinder daily driver… in fact with my Cruze I'm quite happy so far just leaving the engine stock (minus a spark plug upgrade for drivability improvements). The fact the Cruze has a turbocharger is one reason I will not likely "upgrade" the air filter to a free flowing unit. However my other car, a high mileage 2002 ZO6 Corvette, has been wearing an oiled wire/gauze air filter since I bought it in 2004. Two years ago I pulled the heads to install a new cam and lifters and the heads were in terrific condition; intake valve seats were like new and the valve guides were still nice and tight. I lapped the exhaust valve seats (they had some mild pitting) and they were ready to bolt back on. The cylinder bores still show the original machining marks and the engine uses no oil to speak of. It had ~110,000 miles on it at the time and is now over 120,000 miles.


----------

