# Remote start in cold weather failures



## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

My gen 2 is giving me grief as well with this latest cold weather. It could be due to fuel gelling. You may have to try an anti gel additive to prevent this.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

I gave it a good dose of howes fuel treat yesterday because I saw the low temps coming, but didn't drive long after putting it in. Perhaps it didn't circulate long enough so I have some gelled spots in the system.

I'm thinking most likely fuel related but this car has always been a pita in cold weather in regards to remote starts.


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## Rhimestonetiger (Jan 21, 2021)

No problem with mine i fuel up at shell ive been in scarborough as of late amd i have no problem it was -13 where i was


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

In cold weather you don't need just anti-gel properties in a fuel additive. Winter fuel blends have lower cetane numbers, and that's a good part of how easily a diesel engine can start when cold soaked. Try some Power Service silver bottle in addition to whatever anti-gel additive you are using. The white bottle Power Service is anti-gel AND cetane improver, so maybe that's a possible solution.

FUN FACT: I tried to post this and just found out that the words "white" and "power" written together gets censored. Interesting coincidence, and entirely understandable that something like that is banned. I apologize for any alarm warnings I might have tripped if admins get a notification of my post.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

I have been using the grey bottle year round, but not for anti gel. I will be trying the whitle bottle of diesel kleen here now. Fuel should not be an issue normally. In my 8 years of owning diesel's in arctic weather, i have never ran into a gelling problem before.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> In cold weather you don't need just anti-gel properties in a fuel additive. Winter fuel blends have lower cetane numbers, and that's a good part of how easily a diesel engine can start when cold soaked. Try some Power Service silver bottle in addition to whatever anti-gel additive you are using. The white bottle Power Service is anti-gel AND cetane improver, so maybe that's a possible solution.
> 
> FUN FACT: I tried to post this and just found out that the words "white" and "power" written together gets censored. Interesting coincidence, and entirely understandable that something like that is banned. I apologize for any alarm warnings I might have tripped if admins get a notification of my post.


You’re good.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Tomko said:


> You’re good.


Nice. I tried to say "white" and "Power Service" as a recommended product and thought that was a funny thing that was censored. Then I said "OH... yeah..."


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

TDCruze said:


> I will be trying the whitle bottle of diesel kleen here now.


Various amateur ratings on YouTube show that it's not the world's greatest product. I've seen some gelling tests done and the results are "meh." Then, I've seen an unscientific test done for injector pump wear and the results are "meh."



> Fuel should not be an issue normally. In my 8 years of owning diesel's in arctic weather, i have never ran into a gelling problem before.


In Canada, sure. I think they do things better for winter fuel for the obvious reason. Here in the USA the northern states surely do things properly, and I've even seen pumps where #1 diesel was sold. I found a pump of #1 diesel at a fuel stop in Montana, and if I lived there that is what I would use in winter.

I live in a climate area where things are mostly OK but we get one or two cold snaps a year where things might be marginal. I noticed we had the Polar Vortex in Jan/Feb of 2019 and shortly after that the fuel stations put printed notices on the fuel pumps that their fuel is treated to -10ºF and if you want more protection you can buy additives inside the store. Those notices weren't there before, so I assume there were widespread gelling problems with that extreme cold snap. My preferred grocery store with fuel pumps sells 100% petroleum diesel (no biodiesel) and the manager has some flyer about the cold flow improver additive added to the diesel fuel, but the flyer lists a few different levels of protection down to -10ºF. When I asked if that was the level of additive they use, he said he would get back to me...


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Thanks guys, OK if it's not the fuel then it's the car. I honestly don't know what else to do with it if I'm not getting any CEL's and it drives fine otherwise.

The only thing I can think of is the tune/delete on it and now that all the major tuners are out of business I'm not sure what to do.

I'm going to try bypassing the thermostat on the oil pan as I saw on another post here and install an onboard charger to make sure the battery is always fresh as can be.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> Thanks guys, OK if it's not the fuel then it's the car. I honestly don't know what else to do with it if I'm not getting any CEL's and it drives fine otherwise.


Glow plugs sometimes get weak and might not cause a CEL. Are they cheap and easy enough that you could swap a set out to freshen them up? If your car has 100,000 miles or more, they might be getting a little weak.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

Barry Allen said:


> Glow plugs sometimes get weak and might not cause a CEL. Are they cheap and easy enough that you could swap a set out to freshen them up? If your car has 100,000 miles or more, they might be getting a little weak.


Glow plugs are a possibility if hard starting. Thought they gave a cel though?

I would drain water collector in fuel filter too. 

Try getting fuel at another station and maybe an antigel additive.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> Glow plugs sometimes get weak and might not cause a CEL. Are they cheap and easy enough that you could swap a set out to freshen them up? If your car has 100,000 miles or more, they might be getting a little weak.


Yeah I'm at about 125,000 miles and I think they are original. That makes sense.

Once it warms up and I can start it then I'll have chevy change the plugs. I'd do it myself but without a garage I'm not inclined to do much more than 10 minutes of car work before my toes and fingers freeze solid. It is -29C today. Gah. The frequency of my starting problems is too high for it to be fuel. I asked around some other diesel owners around town, many of them do use conditioners but some don't and haven't ever had a problem.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

TDCruze said:


> Glow plugs are a possibility if hard starting. Thought they gave a cel though?
> 
> I would drain water collector in fuel filter too.
> 
> Try getting fuel at another station and maybe an antigel additive.


 You would think they would give a code but I'm not sure what they are testing for. IE: if they are doing a continuity check then it'll pass until it fails completely. If they are testing for resistance or current then it should be accurate.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

@Snipesy , does Biscan/Gretio show anything related to the glow plugs?


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

kelaog said:


> You would think they would give a code but I'm not sure what they are testing for. IE: if they are doing a continuity check then it'll pass until it fails completely. If they are testing for resistance or current then it should be accurate.


I believe it either can sense current or resistance to confirm a complete circuit on each glow plug.


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

MP81 said:


> @Snipesy , does Biscan/Gretio show anything related to the glow plugs?


Gen 2 Gretio has everything there is.

Gen 1 Biscan shows current and maybe resistance. I don’t know if Gretio has the PIDs but it can pull DTCs from the GPCM.

In the Gen1 the GPCM is an annoying special case. The ECM acts as a sort of gateway to it.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Biscan looks like a great app, good job on that. I don't have android and I don't think this is on appstore 

I saw you were a software engineer aspiring to become an MD. Funny enough, I'm a mechanical engineer aspiring to be an MD also haha.


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

Just a thought here, you might check the egr valve.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

15cruzediesel said:


> Just a thought here, you might check the egr valve.


Force 0% position in the tune across all RPM. Possibility that it is passing but would it be enough to cause significant malfunction in the car?


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

kelaog said:


> Force 0% position in the tune across all RPM. Possibility that it is passing but would it be enough to cause significant malfunction in the car?


If it were leaking or bypassing enough, it would cause trouble starting.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

TDCruze said:


> If it were leaking or bypassing enough, it would cause trouble starting.


Agreed. Actual and commanded positions show 0% though from my historical logging, so it would have to be relatively minor based on valve position unless of course the positioner has drifted. I had plans of cleaning this valve once the weather clears up just to ensure that it's indeed fully seating. An easy way I could verify this is by pulling the MAP/IAT sensor again and seeing how much soot is deposited on it. I had replaced this following the delete because I suspected it to be failing so it should be very clean if the EGR is staying closed correctly.


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

kelaog said:


> Force 0% position in the tune across all RPM. Possibility that it is passing but would it be enough to cause significant malfunction in the car?


Not sure being deleted.

The other two things I would check are map and maf sensors.

I was just thinking of things that give starting issues and/or poor running issues.

As far as the GP's go I would cycle them several times and see if that helps startup any before replacing them. Seems to me that since it does fire initially they are doing their job.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

TDCruze said:


> Glow plugs are a possibility if hard starting. Thought they gave a cel though?


I don't know what parameters that the ECU would consider them bad enough to throw a CEL. If the resistance and warmup time is "within spec" but they are not functioning well for very cold weather, it could just be that GM considers them to be "adequate" but they are not functioning the same as a fresh set.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> I don't know what parameters that the ECU would consider them bad enough to throw a CEL. If the resistance and warmup time is "within spec" but they are not functioning well for very cold weather, it could just be that GM considers them to be "adequate" but they are not functioning the same as a fresh set.


100% based on some other features of the car, I don't think they really considered cold weather that well  IE: the absence of a block heater and their specified battery size/capacity....  This whole discussion does highlight the fact that ourselves and unfortunately GM techs rely far too much on the diagnostic software to point to a specific problem. Long gone are the days where mechanics actually troubleshooted and fixed things.

I ordered the new glow plugs on rock auto and they should be here by the end of the week. I will change them provided I can drive this car to a friends heated garage by the end of the week.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

15cruzediesel said:


> Not sure being deleted.
> 
> The other two things I would check are map and maf sensors.
> 
> ...


I read somehwere that they stay on for about a minute and half despite the light going out. Is that true? I might just try leaving the key on for a minute before cranking it over to spare the battery from other loads (albeit insignificant to the glow plugs). To be clear, she isn't firing at all right now (too cold). When it does fire initially it's usually a bit warmer like -10 or so and then it might stutter and die right after it catches.


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

kelaog said:


> I read somehwere that they stay on for about a minute and half despite the light going out. Is that true? I might just try leaving the key on for a minute before cranking it over to spare the battery from other loads (albeit insignificant to the glow plugs). To be clear, she isn't firing at all right now (too cold). When it does fire initially it's usually a bit warmer like -10 or so and then it might stutter and die right after it catches.


My understanding is after the wait to start light is off, 2 seconds full voltage and then another 2 seconds pulse width modulated so about 4 seconds total to achieve the 1800 degrees or so they heat up to.

Heat up time varies with temperature but you should notice that at startup with the wait to start light time.

Timed of course with the compressed air and fuel spray.

Once the control module decides the engine is running I would say it terminates heating them.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> IE: the absence of a block heater and their specified battery size/capacity....


That generation Cruze can get a block heater. It was an option, and should have basically been standard on all the cars sold in northern climates. You can probably still buy one and have it installed.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> I read somehwere that they stay on for about a minute and half despite the light going out. Is that true?


In older IDI engines (Ford and GM) and the Ford 7.3 Powerstroke, the glow plugs would be on for longer than the actual light was on the dash. It's like the light was just a timer, but the glow plugs would actually stay on longer if you left the key in the accessory position. The best start technique for those engines was to turn the key on and watch the ammeter. The glow plug light could go out, but you'd still see the ammeter read about 8-10 volts while the glow plugs were drawing current. Once the needle bounced back again after about 60-90 seconds, that's when the plugs had heated for as long as they would heat. You could crank the engine and it would start easier. Doing this would get some extra heat into the combustion chambers and cylinder heads rather than cranking as soon as the light turned off.

On modern engines, the light goes off and I think that's as hot as the plugs will get. Modern ceramic plugs light up hotter, faster. For a direct injection engine, once the plugs are hot you can start the engine and it usually fires just fine.

However, modern plugs also have an "after glow" period where they remain on for a period of time, at lower voltages. By doing this you can get stable combustion for idling after a cold start. It really does reduce the white smoke out the tailpipe, so it helps emissions. VW TDI engines are programmed to run the after glow for a few minutes or until the engine is running above about 2,500 RPM, because at that engine speed you are building good boost pressure and there is enough heat in the intake air from that for good combustion. You'll find similar behavior in Cummins engines (that don't have glow plugs) where the heater grid in the intake is programmed to cycle on and off for the duration of the time that the intake air is below about 50ºF. This helps reduce the white smoke out the exhaust (unburned fuel) and helps the engine idle. However, once vehicle or engine speeds get high enough, the heater grid turns off because you are building boost and you have enough heat in the air intake for stable combustion.

A guy I knew as a child had an old Ford pickup with the 6.9 IDI engine. He used the truck for his business and used it in winter, so he needed reliable operation. His solution was to replace the glow plugs with some "marine HD" glow plugs that he sourced from someplace I don't remember, but they were glow plugs that could be operated for long periods of time while the engine was running. This was done on marine engines to start and then operate the engine until it was up to temperature. Those marine engines had lower compression ratios so they needed all the help they could get to start. His glow plugs were manually wired up to a relay with a switch in the cab. He could turn them on, wait about 90 seconds, then turn them off and immediately start the engine. Then, once the engine was idling and you didn't need 100% of the battery current to turn the starter, you could turn the glow plugs back on and keep them on for several minutes until the engine was starting to warm.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

15cruzediesel said:


> Once the control module decides the engine is running I would say it terminates heating them.


No, if the engine is cold they will continue heating for a while to reduce emissions and promote combustion stability. It helps the engine idle and run while it's cold.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> That generation Cruze can get a block heater. It was an option, and should have basically been standard on all the cars sold in northern climates. You can probably still buy one and have it installed.


It has a 'useless' oil pan heater standard but AFAIK it never had a blockheater as an option for the diesels.

My point is although it doesn't technically need one for starting, it would be really nice to cut down on the warm up time . I've seen some guys on here that have attempted to install inline heaters but it trips a CEL because the coolant is warmer than the IAT and the engine hasn't been run in 10 hours etc.

Thanks for the other informative posts. That's kind of neat, but I think the whole discussion around having the glow plugs on to maintain combustion stability and help with emissions really solidifies your earlier suggestion the glow plugs have gotten weak because that explains the whole start/stumble/stop problem I have had when remote starting.


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> No, if the engine is cold they will continue heating for a while to reduce emissions and promote combustion stability. It helps the engine idle and run while it's cold.


True but I don't think it has anything to do with the OP problem.

The GPCM looks at several parameters post startup and will command run position PWM heating of the glow plugs as necessary given the conditions. It would be nice to know what the code commands.

I just hate to throw parts at a problem without being as sure as possible they will fix the problem.

I could be wrong but I think the module calculates the temperature of them and will throw a light if over or under current.

It would be nice to test the GP's before just replacing them.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

15cruzediesel said:


> True but I don't think it has anything to do with the OP problem.
> 
> The GPCM looks at several parameters post startup and will command run position PWM heating of the glow plugs as necessary given the conditions. It would be nice to know what the code commands.
> 
> I just hate to throw parts at a problem without being as sure as possible they will fix the problem.


I agree with you on throwing parts at a problem but in the case of things like sparkplugs and glowplugs they are cheap and usually worthwhile replacements. However, combustion stability off a cold start does seem like a related problem that I have been having this winter.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> It has a 'useless' oil pan heater standard but AFAIK it never had a blockheater as an option for the diesels.


My mistake. I thought the 1st generation had a block heater option.


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

kelaog said:


> I agree with you on throwing parts at a problem but in the case of things like sparkplugs and glowplugs they are cheap and usually worthwhile replacements. However, combustion stability off a cold start does seem like a related problem that I have been having this winter.


The other unknown is it could be a tune issue since your deleted..........

I also find it hard to believe all four would go bad at the same time.

Either way I can't wait to hear what fixes it!!


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

If it helps where in Florida since day one of 0 miles my 15 diesel 1/10 times or so will either turn over,catch and immediately die or it will show the acknowledgment of remote start and just not do it. No codes at all but when I turn it on with the key in ignition it starts like a champ.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Barry Allen said:


> My mistake. I thought the 1st generation had a block heater option.


When I sold cruzes they did. However no one bought diesel Cruze (hence why I own it lol) let alone got the block heater. I would have liked the option in case of cold weather travel.

maybe pull the codes from the BCM. Remember a hood open can make the system not active. Maybe there is some code stored there but not toss a CEL.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

15cruzediesel said:


> The other unknown is it could be a tune issue since your deleted..........
> 
> I also find it hard to believe all four would go bad at the same time.
> 
> Either way I can't wait to hear what fixes it!!


Valid point. Could be that they have slowly been dying off over the life of the car and now all four are pretty weak though.

Tune issue wouldn't surprise me either. I've been debating picking up a flashscan to play around with a few things in there but I'm not sure if the map is going to be locked by the guy who tuned it. Might have to get it on his dyno in the spring and let him work out some of the kinks.

I'll keep you posted once the glow plugs are in.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

pandrad61 said:


> If it helps where in Florida since day one of 0 miles my 15 diesel 1/10 times or so will either turn over,catch and immediately die or it will show the acknowledgment of remote start and just not do it. No codes at all but when I turn it on with the key in ignition it starts like a champ.


Yep that's exactly what my car does but more so when it's cold. I think all they had to do was raise the idle speed just a bit when it starts up and this would go away.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

kelaog said:


> Yep that's exactly what my car does but more so when it's cold. I think all they had to do was raise the idle speed just a bit when it starts up and this would go away.


Not sure idle is the problem. For the times the car acknowledges the command it doesn’t even turn over. I think there is a problem in the BCM


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Another thought: cold starts depend on glow plugs that are functioning well, and also depend on fuel injectors that can atomize the fuel into a fine mist. After a lot of miles, you could have some fuel injector clogging with a poor spray patterns. Maybe a bottle of Stanadyne poured into two tanks of fuel could help clean that up?


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

pandrad61 said:


> When I sold cruzes they did. However no one bought diesel Cruze (hence why I own it lol) let alone got the block heater. I would have liked the option in case of cold weather travel.
> 
> maybe pull the codes from the BCM. Remember a hood open can make the system not active. Maybe there is some code stored there but not toss a CEL.


The Fleece and OZ tune break CELs. They would have to flash back to stock.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

pandrad61 said:


> Not sure idle is the problem. For the times the car acknowledges the command it doesn’t even turn over. I think there is a problem in the BCM


From what I've seen from when the car does start by remote and immediately shut down it's been due to idle stability. even when its very cold outside this car wants to immediately settle into low idle which I think is what kills it. What's your theory?


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> Another thought: cold starts depend on glow plugs that are functioning well, and also depend on fuel injectors that can atomize the fuel into a fine mist. After a lot of miles, you could have some fuel injector clogging with a poor spray patterns. Maybe a bottle of Stanadyne poured into two tanks of fuel could help clean that up?


Valid points. I recently had all my injectors bench tested so I think they're good. I do occasionally use fuel treater/injector cleaner in the tank. That being said, if the fuel is near the cloud point then it might not atomize very well. I dumped a whole lot more Howes into the tank for good measure this afternoon and wired up an onboard battery charger that will activate when using the oil pan heater as well. I'll give it a start tomorrow when we get to a daytime high of -25C


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Snipesy said:


> The Fleece and OZ tune break CELs. They would have to flash back to stock.


They shouldn't break all CEL's, only the ones pertaining to emissions items being removed/modified such as high NOX levels. AFAIK, most of my sensors are intact except the ones I disabled. I don't have the fleece or Oz tune. Mine is custom.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

pandrad61 said:


> maybe pull the codes from the BCM. Remember a hood open can make the system not active. Maybe there is some code stored there but not toss a CEL.


Hmm, Ill take a look with my scan tool and see if there is anything in there. That would be a treat at this point. thanks


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

kelaog said:


> They shouldn't break all CEL's, only the ones pertaining to emissions items being removed/modified such as high NOX levels. AFAIK, most of my sensors are intact except the ones I disabled. I don't have the fleece or Oz tune. Mine is custom.


Don't worry it made me go wtf too.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

kelaog said:


> From what I've seen from when the car does start by remote and immediately shut down it's been due to idle stability. even when its very cold outside this car wants to immediately settle into low idle which I think is what kills it. What's your theory?


For the engine to turn over and run, and moment it catches for it to shut off there is only one thing. Fuel, which I think the computer stops. If the BCM doesn’t agree all is good the ecu won’t remote start.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> if the fuel is near the cloud point then it might not atomize very well


I've had experiences with some biodiesel fuel blends being in the edge of gelling in very cold climate. The hardest start I had with a B11 fuel blend took about 10-15 seconds of cranking to get it to fire, and for a few minutes it was definitely misfiring and running rough. I think the fuel was coming out of the injectors in globs instead of a fine mist and that was giving it some rough running until the heat of combustion heated the injector nozzles enough to thaw the fuel. It was a -22ºF morning and I'm surprised the car started.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Snipesy said:


> Don't worry it made me go wtf too.


So they literally just disabled all CEL's instead of specific ones that would trigger with the delete? WTF?

Yikes that is a bad situation for the poor people who bought that tune.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Barry Allen said:


> I've had experiences with some biodiesel fuel blends being in the edge of gelling in very cold climate. The hardest start I had with a B11 fuel blend took about 10-15 seconds of cranking to get it to fire, and for a few minutes it was definitely misfiring and running rough. I think the fuel was coming out of the injectors in globs instead of a fine mist and that was giving it some rough running until the heat of combustion heated the injector nozzles enough to thaw the fuel. It was a -22ºF morning and I'm surprised the car started.


On gen one with key we can hold the key in accessories and have the glow plugs warm up. Surprised the gen 2 didn’t stay on accessories for a little to let the plug do their thing.


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

kelaog said:


> So they literally just disabled all CEL's instead of specific ones that would trigger with the delete? WTF?
> 
> Yikes that is a bad situation for the poor people who bought that tune.


Yes.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

pandrad61 said:


> On gen one with key we can hold the key in accessories and have the glow plugs warm up. Surprised the gen 2 didn’t stay on accessories for a little to let the plug do their thing.


I don't think I noticed that, so in ACC not on it will warm the plugs? Does the light stay on? I thought the glow plug light only came on in ON before switching to start. 

Andrew


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

pandrad61 said:


> For the engine to turn over and run, and moment it catches for it to shut off there is only one thing. Fuel, which I think the computer stops. If the BCM doesn’t agree all is good the ecu won’t remote start.


OK I see what you're saying. I didn't think that was what it was doing but that totally makes sense.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the odd time I key start it and it falls on its face but this only happens when its extremely cold. Once I get the flashscan I will try and play with the idle/start settings to see if it has any affect but I didn't consider it was stalling out because the ECU was commanding it to shut down.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> I've had experiences with some biodiesel fuel blends being in the edge of gelling in very cold climate. The hardest start I had with a B11 fuel blend took about 10-15 seconds of cranking to get it to fire, and for a few minutes it was definitely misfiring and running rough. I think the fuel was coming out of the injectors in globs instead of a fine mist and that was giving it some rough running until the heat of combustion heated the injector nozzles enough to thaw the fuel. It was a -22ºF morning and I'm surprised the car started.


I had watched that video! It cranks over a lot faster than my car does in that weather. So normally it jumps right to life with the right fuel?


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

kelaog said:


> I don't think I noticed that, so in ACC not on it will warm the plugs? Does the light stay on? I thought the glow plug light only came on in ON before switching to start.
> 
> Andrew


When you put the ignition on and all the lights come on and slowly start turning off. The glow plug light will be on and once they’ve been on long enough to be within computer parameters and then they turn off. Longer if and called her condition. Here in Florida they’re on for maybe 5 second.

is the position right before it starts cranking


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> So normally it jumps right to life with the right fuel?


Oh yeah, fires right up. This was the one time we got an absolutely brutal cold snap that was far below average temperatures for where I live.

With the push-to-start I don't have any control over how long the glow plugs heat. I get to step on the clutch pedal, push the button, and the ECU decides if it's ready to start. In normal temperatures it heats for 2-3 seconds, turns over, and with 3-4 rotations of the engine it fires right up.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> Oh yeah, fires right up. This was the one time we got an absolutely brutal cold snap that was far below average temperatures for where I live.
> 
> With the push-to-start I don't have any control over how long the glow plugs heat. I get to step on the clutch pedal, push the button, and the ECU decides if it's ready to start. In normal temperatures it heats for 2-3 seconds, turns over, and with 3-4 rotations of the engine it fires right up.


Yeah right now this is far below our average temps. In normal temps like down to -10 or so it'll easily fire in 2-4 rotations and start purring. If you were lets say below 0F does it still fire that fast?


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

I haven't tried but I wonder, do the glow plugs come on in the engine service mode? Probably unlikely and won't help with remote starting. 

By pressing and holding the start button but not the brake. The fuel pump turns on for an extended run cycle for bleeding the system of air after a filter change. If the glow plugs cycle also it could be useful for cold starts.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> If you were lets say below 0F does it still fire that fast?


Keep in mind that my car is a Gen 2 with the 1.6 engine, and it does fire that fast in every temperature I've experienced. The day after that -22ºF day it was -10ºF and the car started right away without hesitation.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Well, after adding 1/4 tank of new fuel to the existing 3/4 tank from a busy shell truck stop (pretty sure that's good fuel) and > 20 oz of howes, I tried remote starting it this morning at -30C. First attempt failed after what must have been 25 cranks or something with a good bit of smoke. I remote started it a second time and it fired up within a few turns. It definitely started easier than yesterday but I wouldn't call it easy 

That was with the oil pan heater plugged in and the battery charging over night. So.... Glow plugs??


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> So.... Glow plugs??


If they are cheap and easy to swap out, see if that fixes the problem. If the old plugs are removed and you can test them outside the engine, maybe one or two are going bad? You could then replace those and keep the other new plugs (presuming you ordered a set of 4) as backups for when the older ones do go bad.

Glow plugs in modern diesel engines are more important for cold starts than before. Back in the day of mechanical IDI engines, they had seriously high compression ratios. The Detroit Diesel V-8 engines (6.2 and 6.5) had 21.5:1 compression, and the Ford IDI engines shared that ratio as well. If you had good compression in the engine, you'd often get it to start even in the coldest of climates.

Our modern engines have 16:1 compression. Your engine is 16.5:1. That newest Mazda diesel engine (discontinued in the USA after one model year) is 14:1. Those engines could struggle to fire without good glow plugs, because those compression ratios are lower than engines of prior years and it's that much harder to generate high temperatures in the cylinders to get the diesel fuel to self-ignite.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Yep...trying to keep those NOx emissions to a minimum in multiple ways: lower CR, cooled-EGR and, ultimately, aftertreatment systems to convert most of what does come out to non-harmful emissions.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Just changed the glow plugs. It was really easy even with 200k on the odometer. Use penetrating lube and spray it on a semi-warm engine let it seep in for a couple hours and then have at it. I worked them out by alternating clockwise/counter clock wise when I felt any resistance and they all came out pretty easily. I started each one by tightening even slightly and then loosening it up after that. None of them were tight, and only one really had any difficulty unthreading but like I said I took my time, sprayed more penetrating lube onto it, worked on the other plugs, then came back to it. All was well.

Here are pics of the plugs. You can see that they have hotspots on them. Most tested OK for resistance. One was giving me an inconsistent reading either way high or in range. Waiting for the car to cool down and I can try starting it in -26 tonight and see how easily it fires up. I was lucky to get it started today in -18 to get it to my friends garage to change the plugs. It stunk like raw diesel something fierce and took some extra throttle to stop it from dying when trying to start it.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Well, I got the car good and cold at -25 and it fired on two rotations better than it has in a long time. I think that did it! So to clarify, I had no check engine light on the plugs but it’s pretty clear from this that they were all duds. At -18 I could barely get it started earlier in the day, and when it did it barely ran and smoked like disgusting raw diesel chimney. 


http://imgur.com/a/KRGS4gr


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

kelaog said:


> http://imgur.com/a/KRGS4gr


Two words and you SOUND Canadian. LoL

Nice to see that was an easy fix and brought the car back up to like-new performance.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

kelaog said:


> Well, I got the car good and cold at -25 and it fired on two rotations better than it has in a long time. I think that did it! So to clarify, I had no check engine light on the plugs but it’s pretty clear from this that they were all duds. At -18 I could barely get it started earlier in the day, and when it did it barely ran and smoked like disgusting raw diesel chimney.
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/KRGS4gr


May have to consider glow plugs a longer term routine replacement item!


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

TDCruze said:


> May have to consider glow plugs a longer term routine replacement item!


Rockauto had the AC delco OEM part (Bosche) for $30 CAD/plug ($20 USD). Cheap insurance. I would definitely recommend changing them at 100k miles or if you start having any cold weather starting issues. My car had about 120k miles but was having cold start issues last couple years. 
2014 CHEVROLET CRUZE 2.0L L4 DIESEL Turbocharged Diesel Glow Plug | RockAuto


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

kelaog said:


> Rockauto had the AC delco OEM part (Bosche) for $30 CAD/plug ($20 USD). Cheap insurance. I would definitely recommend changing them at 100k miles or if you start having any cold weather starting issues. My car had about 120k miles but was having cold start issues last couple years.
> 2014 CHEVROLET CRUZE 2.0L L4 DIESEL Turbocharged Diesel Glow Plug | RockAuto


Not much more than a spark plug!


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

TDCruze said:


> May have to consider glow plugs a longer term routine replacement item!


Lol laughing in sunny states climate.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

pandrad61 said:


> Lol laughing in sunny states climate.


I wish. Could get 50mpg+ year round. Past few tanks have been in the mid to high 30's.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

TDCruze said:


> I wish. Could get 50mpg+ year round. Past few tanks have been in the mid to high 30's.


Warm states I like year round riding, no salt, better mpg. I hate however how boring they tend to be.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

TDCruze said:


> May have to consider glow plugs a longer term routine replacement item!


If they are cheap enough, consider them to be an item to be replaced about every 75,000 to 100,000 miles. When troubleshooting, buy a set of 4 and just replace them if they are easy enough to do. No one is going to troubleshoot all 4 in the car and then replace just one, because they're recommended to refresh as a set if you find one bad one. If you are getting symptoms of one bad one, you probably have another one or two that are marginal and need replaced as well.

Glad your problem was an easy fix.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Basically treat them like spark plugs, at that point.

Ours get used often enough in Michigan, if it starts to give us more "issues" starting, this will be where I look.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

Update: couple days later I'm still having issues but not the same issues. I no longer have long crank times/no-start conditions but still have the issue of the car start/stalling right away when it's been parked for a long enough time. This is really only a problem with remote starting as it'll start/stop twice before the remote start is locked out. If I get in the car and either try starting it 2-3x it'll eventually stay running or if I add a bit of throttle it'll run right away. In either condition it doesn't take more than 2-3 turns to fire unlike before where it would crank until the battery died without starting.

*Now I suspect in order of confidence:*
a. air leak in the fuel line or
b. something up with the tunes commanded rail pressure at low rpms
c. passing EGR valve (have blocker plates coming this week).

*Does anyone know what the idle rail fuel pressure is supposed to be on this car? I'm seeing 320 bar (32 MPa) or 4640 PSIG. That seems a little low to me. Snipesy?*

I've also noticed that the fuel pressure seems to drop almost immediately to 1 bar as soon as I cut ignition. Mind you I think that is at the very low end of the resolution of the fuel pressure sensor so this may very well be 0. Hard to tell without a lower resolution gauge.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

Not sure on high side normal pressures, but low side is always 60psi. I think the max fuel pressure on the high side is 23000psi, but not sure if that fluctuates with load or rpm?

I had a fuel issue and starting problems with the cold last week. Low side pressure was running at 87psi on and off prior to the poor staring. 

Added 1/2 tank new fuel and 8oz power service white bottle. Changed fuel filter and all is good now. 

I sill wonder if bad fuel could be part of the issue?


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

TDCruze said:


> Not sure on high side normal pressures, but low side is always 60psi. I think the max fuel pressure on the high side is 23000psi, but not sure if that fluctuates with load or rpm?
> 
> I had a fuel issue and starting problems with the cold last week. Low side pressure was running at 87psi on and off prior to the poor staring.
> 
> ...



I'll have to find a fuel gauge and stab it onto the suction side and see where its at. Fuel could still be an issue. I have a lot of howes in the tank so it shouldn't be gelling but it is possible that the mixture is separating with enough time. Time does seem to be more of a factor than temperature. IE: if it sits for 14 hours over night it won't fire on the first try even if it's not as cold outside. If it sits for 6 hours in -25C it starts on the first try. 

I was parked for 8 hours at the plant yesterday in -16C~ or so and it fired right up when I remote started it from my office. Parked 15 hours over night and it's -15C this morning and it just failed two remote start attempts (it fired and died after about 2-3 rotations). Just want to clarify that it is starting it just immediately dies. From similar problems I've seen with diesels this usually points to air in the fuel line or loss of prime. Most of our low pressure side is pressurized so any leaks would be pretty obvious making the only source of air entry on the tank side which means the sending unit. 

I checked the stock fuel pressure maps and I think 30-35 bar is pretty normal for idle pressure. I'm not sure what my exact map is doing but AFAIK higher fuel pressure is better. I posted two maps, one is 'egr off' and the other is low altitude 1. I'm not really sure when 1, 2, or 3 are used and I'm also not clear on what map my car is on. It seems odd to me it would use lower fuel pressure when EGR is on than off but I think that would have to do with a slower burn (less heat) to reduce nox. Once I get my EFI live I'll probaly copy the higher of the two over. AFAIK higher fuel pressure = better but it's typically lowered on modern common rail cars to reduce noise at lower rpm.


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## BDCCruze (Jul 12, 2017)

Temp was around -15' F this morning and 2014 CTD fired right up. New battery last winter has really helped. I also run premium diesel which has anti-gel additive by the merchant.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

Does it run smooth once it starts or stumble for a bit?

My gen 1 used to start then die occasionally, but usually more like -30 weather.


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## BDCCruze (Jul 12, 2017)

TDCruze said:


> Does it run smooth once it starts or stumble for a bit?
> 
> My gen 1 used to start then die occasionally, but usually more like -30 weather.


Never had it stall after starting. Yes, it runs rough for a few moments. I'm also running 0w-30 ESP right now. Not sure if it helps but it makes me feel better.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

BDCCruze said:


> Temp was around -15' F this morning and 2014 CTD fired right up. New battery last winter has really helped. I also run premium diesel which has anti-gel additive by the merchant.


Awesome, they should indeed start relatively easily with modern glow plugs and common rail. 


TDCruze said:


> Does it run smooth once it starts or stumble for a bit?
> 
> My gen 1 used to start then die occasionally, but usually more like -30 weather.


Once it starts, depending on temp may run a little rough but smoothens right out. Then it's good all day.
It does the start/stop thing even when its warmer out sometimes too actually.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

kelaog said:


> Awesome, they should indeed start relatively easily with modern glow plugs and common rail.
> 
> 
> Once it starts, depending on temp may run a little rough but smoothens right out. Then it's good all day.
> It does the start/stop thing even when its warmer out sometimes too actually.


Ever cleaned the EGR? Or the MAP sensor?


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

"I have no choice but to key start after that. Once this happens I've found that on key start it'll catch but I've gotta give it a bit of throttle for a second to get it going"

I have always thought the fact that it will combust, but you have to give it a bit of throttle for it to run is key to your hard start issue.

Remote starting won't push the go pedal down during starting.

I assume when you push the go pedal it adds more fuel. 🤔


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

TDCruze said:


> Ever cleaned the EGR? Or the MAP sensor?


Thanks for the suggestions: Map sensor was cleaned, then replaced last year. I haven't looked at it since. I will pull it this weekend and see if it is sooted up. In theory with the EGR being closed it should be pretty clean.

I have never cleaned the EGR but it remains in a commanded/actual position of 0% as per my ECM tune/scan gauge. It is possible the gears in the actuator are stripped and it 'thinks' it is closed but isn't. My plan this weekend is to install blocker plates to rule that out and at the same time I'll pull the EGR out and clean it. 

Guess I'll buy the fuel pressure gauge and rule out the lift pump while I'm at it. 

You'll never learn in the ins/outs faster on a car than solving a novel issue like this one .


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

15cruzediesel said:


> "I have no choice but to key start after that. Once this happens I've found that on key start it'll catch but I've gotta give it a bit of throttle for a second to get it going"
> 
> I have always thought the fact that it will combust, but you have to give it a bit of throttle for it to run is key to your hard start issue.
> 
> ...


Problem came in two parts. 
a. weak glow plugs prevented a start condition regardless
b. something else is wrong that is solved by more fuel.

When you push the throttle down it moves you to a higher injector duration thus adding more fuel (if it is available). I wouldn't say this method works on the first try but does on later attempts. If I do enough start attempts it'll catch/idle on its own, throttle just helps it get there a little quicker. 

So like right now it is -21 this morning. If I went down to the car and started it, it would probably fire in 2-3 cranks and die right away. I'd do this 4 more times and it would start/run fine. If I used throttle I could get it going in 1-3 attempts instead. 

Just for your own knowledge: this is a map of a dodge CTD starting fuel map. As you can see, if the engine coolant temp (ECT) is at -30C it requires almost twice as much fuel per stroke as it does at 10 deg C. IE: more fuel makes for easier starting and more fuel is required when the engine is colder. One reason I suspect air in the fuel line here is that it would make less fuel available per stroke and adding throttle is compensating for the portion of air.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

kelaog said:


> Thanks for the suggestions: Map sensor was cleaned, then replaced last year. I haven't looked at it since. I will pull it this weekend and see if it is sooted up. In theory with the EGR being closed it should be pretty clean.
> 
> I have never cleaned the EGR but it remains in a commanded/actual position of 0% as per my ECM tune/scan gauge. It is possible the gears in the actuator are stripped and it 'thinks' it is closed but isn't. My plan this weekend is to install blocker plates to rule that out and at the same time I'll pull the EGR out and clean it.
> 
> ...


Oh yes that's right you were deleted!

Still could have issues related to clogged up intake if it was just left after deleting. There is massive soot buildup in the entire intake manifold from the EGR. How many kilometers were on the car when deleted?


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

TDCruze said:


> Oh yes that's right you were deleted!
> 
> Still could have issues related to clogged up intake if it was just left after deleting. There is massive soot buildup in the entire intake manifold from the EGR. How many kilometers were on the car when deleted?


 120,000 km or so. (75k miles)

Hahaha, yes you're probably right. That is the elephant in the room for sure. I cringe at the idea of puling and cleaning that manifold.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

kelaog said:


> 120,000 km or so. (75k miles)
> 
> Hahaha, yes you're probably right. That is the elephant in the room for sure. I cringe at the idea of puling and cleaning that manifold.


I took a peek into my gen 2 TB at 75k km and OMG its really bad already! Debating the pros and cons of a manifold removal and clean myself.


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

TDCruze said:


> I took a peek into my gen 2 TB at 75k km and OMG its really bad already! Debating the pros and cons of a manifold removal and clean myself.


My throttle plate had a little bit of crake on it but it wasn't as bad as some of the pics I've seen on here  The MAP sensor had a good thick coating on it.

I wouldn't go through the effort until you started having some symptoms that were indicative of requiring it to be honest. This car doesn't leave a lot of room under the hood especially in that area. It wouldn't be fun getting all the nuts out/back in. on that manifold.


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

kelaog said:


> Problem came in two parts.
> a. weak glow plugs prevented a start condition regardless
> b. something else is wrong that is solved by more fuel.
> 
> ...


Why do you suspect air in the fuel system? ie how did it get there?


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## kelaog (Aug 1, 2019)

15cruzediesel said:


> Why do you suspect air in the fuel system? ie how did it get there?


Based on the symptoms of a sputter start condition. I'm not sure where the air is coming from but I would imagine it is coming from the tank. Most likely cause is a failed lift pump or one of the fittings inside of the tank that is failed.

It's obviously just a theory and I'll need to test the hypothesis with a fuel pressure gauge.


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