# The Case for and Against Buying a Diesel Car



## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

[h=5]Like soccer, diesel cars are a worldwide phenomenon that Americans just don't get.[/h]
In Europe, more than 50% of new cars sold have diesel engines, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers Association. Meanwhile, the U.S. auto market share for diesels hovers around 3%, says Jessica Caldwell, a senior analyst at the website Edmunds.com.
But there are signs diesel cars are becoming more mainstream, she says. Improving technology has largely eliminated the noise and black smoke that used to follow diesels. These days, diesels are designed to run on a new, low-sulfur version of diesel fuel, sometimes called "clean diesel," which produces less pollution and cuts back on that sooty smell reminiscent of the '80s.
Today, higher gas prices have made Americans more open to alternative fuels. But the push for diesel also is being driven by the automakers, says Hague Stoddard, an industry analyst for the website Wards Auto. To meet new fuel-efficiency standards, they'll need to boost the average mileage of their U.S. fleets from 27.5 miles per gallon to 35.5 mpg by 2016.

To do that, automakers that already build diesels overseas are bringing them to the U.S. German brands have the most diesel options available, but U.S. brands are making diesel moves, too, with GM and Chrysler joining the mix, Stoddard says...

Read more: The Case for and Against Buying a Diesel Car | Fox Business​


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Hippies. Tree-huggers. Lobbyists with surprisingly deep pockets that impose "hybrid technology" on us to make us believe that we're doing the world some good. They tell us diesel is "dirty," when it is vastly more efficient than gas, as the TDI drivers have proven repeatedly. 

Noisy? Give it a break. People are spoiled rotten. Must have smooth, powerful, fast cars. Out in Europe, they understand that you need to get from point A to point B reliably and efficiently, and Diesel does that. The US needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that a push for Diesel would be infinitely more effective and beneficial than ethanol or hybrid cars.


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## coinneach (Apr 10, 2012)

In addition to X's good points, let's not forget that diesel is (or can be) a renewable resource, unlike dino-juice. A few companies are doing amazing things with algae for BD.

The American diesels I've driven have been, ftmp, clattery monsters. The Europeans feel exactly like their gasoline counterparts. There is NO GORRAM REASON for American diesels to be this terrible, other than "We've always done it this way" syndrome.


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

coinneach said:


> In addition to X's good points, let's not forget that diesel is (or can be) a renewable resource, unlike dino-juice. A few companies are doing amazing things with algae for BD.
> 
> The American diesels I've driven have been, ftmp, clattery monsters. The Europeans feel exactly like their gasoline counterparts. There is NO GORRAM REASON for American diesels to be this terrible, other than "We've always done it this way" syndrome.


Yes, better even than ethanol.


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## Hatje (Jun 23, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Hippies. Tree-huggers. Lobbyists with surprisingly deep pockets that impose "hybrid technology" on us to make us believe that we're doing the world some good. They tell us diesel is "dirty," when it is vastly more efficient than gas, as the TDI drivers have proven repeatedly.
> 
> Noisy? Give it a break. People are spoiled rotten. Must have smooth, powerful, fast cars. Out in Europe, they understand that you need to get from point A to point B reliably and efficiently, and Diesel does that. The US needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that a push for Diesel would be infinitely more effective and beneficial than ethanol or hybrid cars.


Hey cool I finally agree with you on somthing! Lol


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

I'm kind of a hippy tree-hugger and I like diesels. Owned two VW diesels in the past. Also have known other tree-hugger types who owned them, and in fact met some pretty serious, patchouli-scented hippies in a diesel VW Westfalia last summer in Vermont. So you're painting with kind of a broad brush.


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## imik (May 4, 2012)

I think you have to travel long distance with a diesel engine, would you go to a wedding .... as we say, would be perfect.
It is not very suitable for city driving, consumption a little high. But for the rest of the guide is a real pleasure.
Power of torque from 1500 rpm, in 5 or 6 gear ..... you paste on the back :signlol:


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## coinneach (Apr 10, 2012)

Eugene_C said:


> Yes, better even than ethanol.


One of the excuses I've read for why E85 is a Good Thing is that it's made with a different (non-edible) type of maize. The problem is that the E85 type grows on the same land as the types eaten by humans and cattle. If a farmer can earn more with the non-edible type, that's what he'll grow, good intentions be d*mned. So either way, E85 interferes with food crops. By contrast, the only people I know who eat blue-green algae are extreme fringies and plecostomus.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Hatje said:


> Hey cool I finally agree with you on somthing! Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


Not too difficult when we're talking about something other than HID kits, lol. 



Eugene_C said:


> I'm kind of a hippy tree-hugger and I like diesels. Owned two VW diesels in the past. Also have known other tree-hugger types who owned them, and in fact met some pretty serious, patchouli-scented hippies in a diesel VW Westfalia last summer in Vermont. So you're painting with kind of a broad brush.


Perhaps I should have added "political" to that. Al Gore types. I lived in California for a while, mostly in the LA area, where people think Toyota and Honda are the best cars in the world and everyone drives a hybrid because they think they're saving the planet. Same thing in San Francisco. Those are the kinds of tree-huggers I'm talking about. 

You could technically label me a tree hugger. I have more plants around my cubicle in my large office than everyone else on my floor has combined.


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## Hatje (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm not sure if I'm a tree higher per say, but I absolutely love diesel engines I drive 4400 hp ones at work! My next car will be a diesel they just make so much more sense to me economically 


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## brianguy1979 (Jun 17, 2012)

I just got out of my 2002 Jetta TDI. It had 505K on it from courier miles that I drove. I dumped it because here in Omaha NE diesel is a good 40-50 cents more a gallon and despite me spending thousands of dollars keeping it running it still would only give me back 37-40 a gallon. I loved the car, but in the end, the Cruze ECO was way cheaper per gallon and got even better fuel economy that the TDI did! She was getting old and wore out....I remember when it was new giving me 53mpg! :-D


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

brianguy1979 said:


> I just got out of my 2002 Jetta TDI. It had 505K on it from courier miles that I drove. I dumped it because here in Omaha NE diesel is a good 40-50 cents more a gallon and despite me spending thousands of dollars keeping it running it still would only give me back 37-40 a gallon. I loved the car, but in the end, the Cruze ECO was way cheaper per gallon and got even better fuel economy that the TDI did! She was getting old and wore out....I remember when it was new giving me 53mpg! :-D



What if the new Cruze diesel can give some drivers close to 60 mpg? There are rumors to that effect.


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## litesong (Oct 14, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> They tell us diesel is "dirty," when it is vastly more efficient than gas, as the TDI drivers have proven repeatedly.


Often Prius pollution levels are 10 times lower than EPA standards. Traditionally, diesel hasn't been able to make the pollution standards in the U.S. Of those diesels that now do qualify, they can barely make the standards.

Here are the diesel problems in Europe:
EUROPA - Press Releases - Janez Poto


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## steve333 (Oct 23, 2010)

coinneach said:


> One of the excuses I've read for why E85 is a Good Thing is that it's made with a different (non-edible) type of maize. The problem is that the E85 type grows on the same land as the types eaten by humans and cattle. If a farmer can earn more with the non-edible type, that's what he'll grow, good intentions be d*mned. So either way, E85 interferes with food crops. By contrast, the only people I know who eat blue-green algae are extreme fringies and plecostomus.


'Food' ciorn right now is GMO crap that people shouldn't be eating. The only corn I'll touch is organic.
Monsanto GMOs are toxic garbage-most soy, corn, canola and sugar beets are GMO. Thanks to Obama, alfalfa and 4 others will be added to the list.
If the government really wants to declare war on cancer they can start by banning GMOs


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Hippies. Tree-huggers. Lobbyists with surprisingly deep pockets that impose "hybrid technology" on us to make us believe that we're doing the world some good. They tell us diesel is "dirty," when it is vastly more efficient than gas, as the TDI drivers have proven repeatedly....
> The US needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that a push for Diesel would be infinitely more effective and beneficial than ethanol or hybrid cars.


"Clean diesel" cars are still dirty. Go to Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA and on the right side, check both checkboxes, select 2012, California. Unfortunately, the sorting is broken but no "clean diesel" gets an air pollution score of better than 6/10. There are plenty of gasoline powered vehicles, both hybrid and non-hybrid that get 9/10. You can read more about rating at About the Ratings | Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA.

Hybridization isn't tied to a particular fuel source. There's no reason why there can't be diesel hybrids. There's Peugeot's 3008 Hybrid4 review & test drive (Wired UK), for example.

As for your last point, why is that? Diesels by themselves burn fuel uselessly when the vehicle is stopped idling. They don't recapture energy that's lost as useless heat and brake dust when braking. They also run inefficiently when the car is is traveling at very low speeds.

From Refining Crude Oil - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy, in the US, a barrel of oil yields 19 gallons of gasoline and 10 gallons of diesel.

And, if the goal is to reduce GHG emissions, well, since diesel has higher carbon content, it produces more CO2 when burned: Vehicle Technologies Program: Fact #576: June 22, 2009 Carbon Dioxide from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel. So, from Compare Side-by-Side (for example), given the 15K miles/year of driving and EPA mileage figures, a '12 Prius would produce 2.9 tons of GHGs/year while a '12 Jetta TDI auto would produce 5.0 tons/year.


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## Camcruse (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm here (2012 RS 2LT), because I traded in my 09 Jetta TDI. It was a great and very fun car to drive. BUT!!! There's been way to many HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) implosions, taking out the common rail engine. Total cost to fix was between $8,000-$10,000 and right now VW is covering it, even after warranty. But there will come a day when VW says "to bad".


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

Camcruse said:


> I'm here (2012 RS 2LT), because I traded in my 09 Jetta TDI. It was a great and very fun car to drive. BUT!!! There's been way to many HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) implosions, taking out the common rail engine. Total cost to fix was between $8,000-$10,000 and right now VW is covering it, even after warranty. But there will come a day when VW says "to bad".


Yeah, I'd heard a lot about the VW HPFP issues. It doesn't surprise me since VW isn't known for good reliability in the first place. At least it sounds like they've changed their tune on this and covering repairs.

There was Report: NHTSA investigation into 100,000 VW and Audi diesels intensifies, last year.


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## Subic (May 6, 2012)

Running gasoline engines produce carbon monoxide, which can be deadly to humans.
Running diesel engines produce no carbon monoxide or anything deadly to humans.
Where air quality is maintained for human kind (underground mines) gasoline engines are not allowed, diesel engines are.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

Subic said:


> Running diesel engines produce no carbon monoxide or anything deadly to humans.


What a bunch of bull!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/health/diesel-fumes-cause-lung-cancer-who-says.html

Take a look at http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/volkswagen_pc_a0070271_2d0_l2_diesel.pdf. Take a look again at About the Ratings | Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA and examine the non-zero values for many of the pollutants.

http://priuschat.com/threads/2009-vw-jetta-tdi-emissions-results-in.49909/ did some comparisons vs. other vehicles.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/dieselexhaust/index.html#recognition
http://web.archive.org/web/20081217...cla.edu/catalog/factsheets/diesel_english.pdf


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## Gritts (Jan 23, 2011)

Diesel fuel costs more than gas (at least where I live).
Diesel engines cost more to buy.
Diesel engines cost more to maintain.
Diesel engines _do _get better mpgs.
Diesel engines can have issues in cold weather that gas engines do not.
I'll stay with gas.


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## Gritts (Jan 23, 2011)

Subic said:


> Where air quality is maintained for human kind (underground mines) gasoline engines are not allowed, diesel engines are.


Yep, with CO scrubbers. Diesel is used because it is less of a fire hazard than gasoline. Frankly I've worked around underground diesel equipment and would not recommend it if you want to live to a ripe old age.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

Gritts said:


> Diesel fuel costs more than gas (at least where I live).
> ...
> 
> Diesel engines _do _get better mpgs.


And it's also true nationally (http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/).

From Why has diesel fuel been more expensive than gasoline? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)


> Why has diesel fuel been more expensive than gasoline?
> 
> On-highway diesel fuel prices have been higher than regular gasoline prices almost continuously since September 2004, a break from the historical pattern of diesel fuel prices usually being lower than gasoline prices except in cold winters when demand for heating oil pushed diesel fuel prices higher...


Also, to back up my earlier point re: pollutants, from Drive Clean, notice the smog scores (http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Know_the_Score/Understand_the_Smog_Score.php)? This is from clicking on the View Vehicles link for Diesel at Drive Clean - Technologies & Fuel Types.

Then go to Drive Clean - Smog Score and select 9 (out of 10). That yields Drive Clean. Notice not a single diesel amongst them? Also try looking at the '12 and '13 model years. (10/10 yields only EVs.)


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## lostjuan (Jan 21, 2011)

I think they are interesting. They have always been a crap shoot here in Canada. Fluctuating prices as high 30 cents a litre more. (buck thirteen a US gallon more) VW the major seller of diesels here have made the prices so that you can't low ball them. No three door golf, no five door basic. You have got to buy the next higher level. Of course that's all mute if you have the money to spend on the top of the line version. But then their is that reliability thing. From what I have been told they are more common in europe simply because diesel is priced the same or less and the fuel is more available, in different grades, and better quality. 
But less maintenance, great highway mileage and all that torque is enticing. And who wouldn't want an injector that has the ability to push 36000 psi. (and I have heard of even 6 digit levels).
Whether the diesel will be an asset in a cruze is hard to say.


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## Jupiterpa (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi All,
Just wanted to add my view to this discussion and especially since im originally from the UK. Since coming to the US I've looked at options to have a fuel efficient car and struggled to find something that would do at least 45 mpg+, In the UK I had the latest generation VW Golf TDI with Auto Transmission that sort of averaged around 48MPG (UK) I guess thats a lot more in US Conversion regardless of my driving habit in the City however on the highway it ran well over 55MPG+, the servicing for my golf was every 18,000 miles. A Couple of points to note, there are less parts that need maintaining in a diesel i.e. You dont have to replace the spark plugs because they have Glow Plugs. A diesel is more efficient due to the high compression within the Cylinder hence cleaner burning, there is an abundance of torque in the low 1000's rpm's unlike a Gas powered car. At present I drive a Cruze Eco MT and I get an average of 32MPG in mixed driving, I really like the car but I think the smaller fuel tank doesnt help as i'm still filling up every week  I've asked my dealer when the Diesel powered Cruze finally comes in to the Market that I would be the first person in Line. 
Thanks for reading,
Aaron.


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## Beaker (Mar 21, 2012)

litesong said:


> Often Prius pollution levels are 10 times lower than EPA standards. Traditionally, diesel hasn't been able to make the pollution standards in the U.S. Of those diesels that now do qualify, they can barely make the standards.
> 
> Here are the diesel problems in Europe:
> EUROPA - Press Releases - Janez Poto


That's because the standards are ridiculously high.


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## Daisy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

litesong said:


> Often Prius pollution levels are 10 times lower than EPA standards. Traditionally, diesel hasn't been able to make the pollution standards in the U.S. Of those diesels that now do qualify, they can barely make the standards.
> 
> Here are the diesel problems in Europe:
> EUROPA - Press Releases - Janez Poto


What do you do with the solid waste when it comes time to replace that heavy battery?


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## Skraeling (May 30, 2012)

The day I buy a hybrid is the day I may as well just cut my balls off. Hybrids are not enthusiast cars by any stretch. You cant get a manual with one ever. I would lose respect for myself if I ever had to get one.

More power to people that can tolerate driving them, but bleh.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Skraeling said:


> The day I buy a hybrid is the day I may as well just cut my balls off. Hybrids are not enthusiast cars by any stretch. You cant get a manual with one ever. I would lose respect for myself if I ever had to get one.
> 
> More power to people that can tolerate driving them, but bleh.


There's honestly no point in my opinion. The Prius is the only real car that can be argued as getting better fuel economy than the Cruze Eco, but it's somewhere around $6000 more on initial cost, and looks like a wedge of cheese to boot. It's not a driver's car by any means. Honda hasn't had very good luck making hybrids, and any other hybrid sedans simply don't hold a candle to the value of the Cruze Eco.

That is, of course, assuming you're under the mindset that a manual transmission is *standard *and an automatic transmission is a *luxury*, which is something the US population should learn from our friends in Europe. I will not own another automatic transmission car until I have a physical condition that requires me to. 

On that note, the Prius is not an economy car, nor are any other hybrids. A Diesel with a 6 speed manual though, now that's something I'd drive. It's unfortunate that VW is the only company that has been selling them in the US, and they haven't done a very good job at making them reliable.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

A hybrid is not supposed to be for enthusiasts. You want 50 MPG combined? You buy a Prius. Sure, it looks boring to us, but it does exactly what it is supposed to do, and its the best at it. I can't hate.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

WEDGE OF CHEESE?! A Prius looks more like a bubble/turd to me. 

This is a wedge of cheese:









There are many cars in Europe that get over 50+ mpg. They also are used primarily in city driving, are very small, and often have tiny 1.0-1.5 liter diesel or gas engines that can't keep up on highways we have here. Americans want cars that can accelerate and carry a few of their friends, coolers, and their fat butts to the beach comfortably at 80 mph. That's why the Mazda2 and Chevy Spark haven't and won't do very well in this market.

There's a difference between driving a moderately-powered car hard, and having to wring the living crap out of the engine for everything it's got just to merge with traffic. 

That, and the EPA won't let leaner-burning, high-powered engines here because of their high Nox emissions, etc. etc. The same idiots that forced them to discontinue the old VW TDI that got 50+ easily on highways, and the Jeep Liberty CRD. They want engines to use more fuel to burn "cleaner", yet are trying to get car manufacturers to get higher MPG across their entire lineup by 2015/2020. The manufacturers are stuck between a rock and a hard place; many resorting to small turbocharged engines. The 1.4T is a good example of an engine that definitely has future potential, as is Ford's Ecoboost 1.6/2.0 that make power comparable to a conventional 2.5 4 cylinder or V6.

I, for one, love the power of V6's...but like V8's, they're probably going to die off in anything other than trucks and SUV's.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

Daisy81 said:


> What do you do with the solid waste when it comes time to replace that heavy battery?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKnNEVdtzi4 - skip to 3:28 if you want to see recycling info
Hybrid Vehicle Battery Recycling System - YouTube
Mr. Green's Web-Only Mailbag - November/December 2007 - Sierra Magazine - Sierra Club
Toyota.com : Hybrid Synergy View : 2006 : Fall : Battery Q&A
Toyota | TMC, 3 Companies Start Joint Battery-to-battery Recycling

The HV battery is only ~100 lbs. out of a ~3000 lb. car (approx curb weight of the 3rd gen Prius). My (2n gen) 06 Prius is 2890 lbs.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> There's honestly no point in my opinion. The Prius is the only real car that can be argued as getting better fuel economy than the Cruze Eco, but it's somewhere around $6000 more on initial cost, and looks like a wedge of cheese to boot.


Prius c (although a compact) has a lower starting MSRP than the Cruze Eco. See The Toyota Prius c models and prices. The hybrid hate and misinformation is getting really annoying. It always comes from people who don't own them...

ALL cars should be hybrids. At minimum, all cars should have an auto start-stop system or better yet, have a BAS mild-hybrid setup. 

It's very annoying to drive non-hybrids and non-EVs. It's crazy that an engine uselessly runs, burns fuel and spews out emissions while stopped. It seems crazy that all kinetic energy of a car is lost as useless heat and brake dust instead of being partly recaptured. It's nice to not have to run the engine at very low speeds where it's inefficient for it to run.

It seems silly to have "shift shock" due to having to shift gears (either manually or automatically) between fixed gear ratios. It also seems a little silly to be locked into a set of discrete gear ratios.

Per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Powe...opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0, there are plenty of cars that exceed the '12 Cruze Eco's 6MT's 33 mpg combined and even more that exceed the 6AT's 31 mpg combined (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31315&id=31377). 

In CR testing, the '12 Cruze Eco 6AT (they didn't test the manual, unfortunately), it yielded 27 mpg overall (and 17 city/40 highway). This wasn't enough to get it a spot on http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/05/best-worst-fuel-economy/index.htm, https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/02/the-most-fuel-efficient-cars/index.htm nor http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/05/best-city-highway-mpg/index.htm.


Beaker said:


> That's because the standards are ridiculously high.


Ridiculous? Go to http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do, check both checkboxes and select 2012, California. Notice how many vehicles are able to meet and exceed 6 on the air pollution score?


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

Jupiterpa said:


> Hi All,
> Just wanted to add my view to this discussion and especially since im originally from the UK. Since coming to the US I've looked at options to have a fuel efficient car and struggled to find something that would do at least 45 mpg+, In the UK I had the latest generation VW Golf TDI with Auto Transmission that sort of averaged around 48MPG (UK) I guess thats a lot more in US Conversion regardless of my driving habit in the City however on the highway it ran well over 55MPG+, the servicing for my golf was every 18,000 miles. A Couple of points to note, there are less parts that need maintaining in a diesel i.e. You dont have to replace the spark plugs because they have Glow Plugs. A diesel is more efficient due to the high compression within the Cylinder hence cleaner burning,


48 miles per UK gallon = 39.96 miles per US gallon
55 miles per UK gallon = 45.8 miles per US gallon

Diesels are NOT cleaner burning. Not a single "clean diesel" has met PZEV emissions standards (9/10) on the EPA air pollution score. You can look up scores at Compare Cars Side-by-Side and Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA. 

Also go to http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/Search_and_Explore/Smog_Score.php and select 9 or 10, making sure to select both '12 and '13 model years. Compare with http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults_by_tech.php?tech=45, sorting by smog score.


jblackburn said:


> There are many cars in Europe that get over 50+ mpg. They also are used primarily in city driving, are very small, and often have tiny 1.0-1.5 liter diesel or gas engines that can't keep up on highways we have here. Americans want cars that can accelerate and carry a few of their friends, coolers, and their fat butts to the beach comfortably at 80 mph. That's why the Mazda2 and Chevy Spark haven't and won't do very well in this market.


Part of it also is the inflated European test cycles and some people mixing up Imperial vs. US gallons. From http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...mates-plug-in-hybrids-and-gas-guzzlers-page-4, which I've posted in another thread


> One last fuel-economy tidbit: Don’t even think of comparing EPA figures with standÂ*ardized fuel-economy tests from other countries because the test cycles are very different. For example, the European highway rating, called “extra urban,” is higher than the EPA’s by about 30 percent, so a rating on that cycle of, say, 60 mpg, would be closer to 40 in this country. The mainstream press, not realizing the difference, often complains that automakers refuse to bring efficient models here when, in fact, they may not be all that efficient when measured by U.S. standards.


From http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=23492 a '12 Prius gets 72.4 miles per Imperial gallon on 2 on urban (cold) and combined schedules and 76.3 miles per Imperial gallon on the extra urban cycle. That's 60.28 and 63.53 miles per US gallon, respectively.


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## weimerrj (Dec 4, 2011)

I specifically ruled out a Prius because I didn't want to be thought of as a person like cwerdna.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

weimerrj said:


> I specifically ruled out a Prius because I didn't want to be thought of as a person like cwerdna.


HIGH FIVE!


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## bartonmd (Jun 30, 2011)

Yeah, a base compact Prius is $1k cheaper than the ECO, but optioned similarly (aluminum wheels), the Level 2 Prius C is $540 more than the ECO 6MT. I don't know about out in the PRK, but they don't deal on Prius models, here. You can get $1500 off of an ECO, and can't get anything off of a Prius. So, the ECO ends up being $2k cheaper than even the smaller C.

Everything should be a hybrid? Technically speaking, hybrids are simply a crutch to help get around the inefficiencies of the gasoline engine, and the fact that it has a throttle plate and intake manifold vacuum. Start legislating HOW manufacturers get their CAFE numbers, and you undermine the forces that drive technological advancement.

Plus, if you're really a DRIVER, and Prius is horribly boring to drive, and handles just so-so; while the ECO 6MT is really fun to drive, and handles very well.

Mike


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cwerdna said:


> Prius c (although a compact) has a lower starting MSRP than the Cruze Eco. See The Toyota Prius c models and prices. The hybrid hate and misinformation is getting really annoying. It always comes from people who don't own them...
> 
> ALL cars should be hybrids. At minimum, all cars should have an auto start-stop system or better yet, have a BAS mild-hybrid setup.
> 
> ...


It's ironic that YOU of all people are talking about automotive "hate."

Btw, stop comparing a tiny little car to a Cruze. ****, the Cruze is probably bigger than the standard size Prius. The Cruze is technically a midsize.

Which reminds me, you speak of us not owning a hybrid, but at least we're not arguing on a Prius forum, because, well, we own Cruzes. What are you still doing here?

Stop with the CR bullshit. At least that has been proven invalid. It's like your bible to be honest. You don't fail to use it as your primary resource.

So please, take your CR gospel preaching, Toyota worshipping, Cruze hating attitude and move it to a forum that cares, because I know of few members here who aren't fed up with it.

Excuse my rudeness, but you don't seem to be able to take all the polite hints people are giving you.

Sent from my Bulletproof_Doubleshot using AutoGuide.Com Free App


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Btw, stop comparing a tiny little car to a Cruze. ****, the Cruze is probably bigger than the standard size Prius. The Cruze is technically a midsize.
> 
> ...
> Stop with the CR bullshit. At least that has been proven invalid. It's like your bible to be honest. You don't fail to use it as your primary resource.


The Prius c is classified as a compact and is smaller than a Cruze. 

The regular Prius (aka liftback) is classified as a midsize as well and has equal passenger volume compared to the Cruze and greater luggage volume. See Compare Side-by-Side under the Specs tab.

CR "proven" invalid? I don't see that their mileage tests are invalid. You may not like them but they have a standardized routine. They give some info on the last page of http://www.consumersunion.org/Oct_CR_Fuel_Economy.pdf.

Regardless, for those who choose to ignore them, I've given you results from another mileage test, the standardized EPA mileage test.

I've already posted why I'm here before but part of it is to set the record straight. At least people should be making decisions on correct information, rather than misinformation, myths and FUD.


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## bartonmd (Jun 30, 2011)

FWIW, I normally get as good or better economy, city and highway, as the EPA numbers. I've got a 5.3L Trailblazer, which they say, in the article you linked, that they got 9mph city with. I get better than 9mpg city, towing a 6500# car trailer with the A/C on full blast.

Mike


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

bartonmd said:


> FWIW, I normally get as good or better economy, city and highway, as the EPA numbers. I've got a 5.3L Trailblazer, which they say, in the article you linked, that they got 9mph city with. I get better than 9mpg city, towing a 6500# car trailer with the A/C on full blast.
> 
> Mike


Was yours an 03 or a generation the same as the 03? That's what they tested. How close were your conditions to these below?



> CITY MPG
> Our tests. These tests are stop-and-go city-driving simulations
> on our test track, which has a total of 18 stops and 4 minutes of
> total idle time. Top speed is 40 mph. Two different testers each
> ...


Remember, short drives starting w/a cold engine kills mileage.

BTW, since people are talking about deals, people were discussing deals elsewhere and then mentioned Manhattan Beach Toyota (in So Cal). I found their ad at http://pictures.dealer.com/j/johnel...ica/0473/a0d735020a0d02b7012297d789e58341.jpg (link from Toyota Military Rebate Program & Specials at John Elway's Manhattan Beach Toyota). One can get a 2012 Prius liftback (regular Prius) model Two (minimum model available to non-fleets) for $21,388 (MSRP w/dest charge is $24,760).


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## TDK (Jul 29, 2012)

*Smug Alert!*

Anyone else read cwerdna's posts, notice that he's from San Francisco, and immediately think of the the South Park episode "Smug Alert!" ?

(Yes I joined just to make that reference)


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cwerdna said:


> The Prius c is classified as a compact and is smaller than a Cruze.
> 
> The regular Prius (aka liftback) is classified as a midsize as well and has equal passenger volume compared to the Cruze and greater luggage volume. See Compare Side-by-Side under the Specs tab.
> 
> ...


It's quite a high pedestal you've placed yourself on, assuming the role of one to set the record straight and clarify everything from anyone. I might be inclined to believe you if you used a variety of sources, but I don't see that at all. I just see you using CR, which many people have noted as bullshit. I'll admit, this time you didn't reference the Cruze's supposed unreliability, but you did mention their fuel economy results, which in my opinion follows their questionable credibility based on the rest of their reporting. How about finding another resource, so at least you get a second opinion, perhaps two or three review websites that might actually give you a balanced overview of this car. 

The problem I have with you is that your "correct information" comes from this one source, and it is of very questionable credibility. From what people are actually reporting for fuel economy, it seems CR's rating is the real myth.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Priutheth are Fabulouth!

The smugness must also explain why they drive in the left lane at 15 below speed limits and piss off every other driver on the road. They they flash people and get angry when you cut them off. Because they, for some reason, seem to think they're better than everyone else on the road for driving a "green" car. 

I love how off topic this has gotten. 

I'm excited to try out the diesel Cruze when it gets here. Wont buy one, but I'd love to see what it's like compared to VWs 2.0TDI which struck me as a great engine. Definitely WORLDS of difference from those clattery diesel trucks. 


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

...uh, is CR one of the "*Mythbusters*" sponsors (wink,wink)?


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## bartonmd (Jun 30, 2011)

cwerdna said:


> Was yours an 03 or a generation the same as the 03? That's what they tested. How close were your conditions to these below?
> 
> Remember, short drives starting w/a cold engine kills mileage.
> .


Mine's an '07 SWB LH6. Slightly different, but not that much different, and definitely not 20% better while pulling a 6500# trailer.

If you recall from earlier conversations, my Engineering specialization is in Automotive Electronic Control. So yes, I do remember that short drives on a cold engine kill mileage. I did read the link to how they did it, but I didn't pay enough attention, I guess. So, the 18 stops and 4 minutes of idling that I did see, is on (6) separate cold starts. So... Basically... The CR city duty cycle isn't as much about "city fuel mileage" as it is "this is what mileage you can expect if you live 4 blocks from work and take the car instead of walk."

Mike


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

TDK said:


> Anyone else read cwerdna's posts, notice that he's from San Francisco, and immediately think of the the South Park episode "Smug Alert!" ?
> 
> (Yes I joined just to make that reference)


I'm not from San Francisco. I've never lived there in my life. I live about a 60 mile drive from SF. This whole region is referred to as the San Francisco Bay Area. The city I live has a much larger land area and a greater population than SF.



XtremeRevolution said:


> It's quite a high pedestal you've placed yourself on, assuming the role of one to set the record straight and clarify everything from anyone. I might be inclined to believe you if you used a variety of sources, but I don't see that at all. I just see you using CR, which many people have noted as bullshit. I'll admit, this time you didn't reference the Cruze's supposed unreliability, but you did mention their fuel economy results, which in my opinion follows their questionable credibility based on the rest of their reporting. How about finding another resource, so at least you get a second opinion, perhaps two or three review websites that might actually give you a balanced overview of this car.
> 
> The problem I have with you is that your "correct information" comes from this one source, and it is of very questionable credibility. From what people are actually reporting for fuel economy, it seems CR's rating is the real myth.


I don't still don't get why you keep poo-pooing both their FE and reliability results. ALL ICE vehicles do very poorly on the CR city test, partly because it's so short. It doesn't make it invalid. 

For example, the closest supermarket to me is 2.6 miles away, one way per Google Maps and a 7 minute drive. One can take a mostly expressway route (3.1 miles long, 7 minutes) or one that doesn't have a speed limit above 35 mph and is shorter in distance.

At one point, when I was living in another state, my work about 2.2 miles way or 8 minutes, not including time and distance looking for a parking spot.

Regardless, I DID give the EPA FE test results. See below.


cwerdna said:


> Per Fuel Economy, there are plenty of cars that exceed the '12 Cruze Eco's 6MT's 33 mpg combined and even more that exceed the 6AT's 31 mpg combined (Compare Side-by-Side).


In my other responses, I included epa.gov, ca.gov and gov.uk sites, although not all related to FE. Prices didn't come from CR either, nor did the volume comparisons.


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## cwerdna (Mar 10, 2011)

cwerdna said:


> I've already posted why I'm here before but part of it is to set the record straight. At least people should be making decisions on correct information, rather than misinformation, myths and FUD.





XtremeRevolution said:


> It's quite a high pedestal you've placed yourself on, assuming the role of one to set the record straight and clarify everything from anyone.


I should clarify my remark, as I guess I left out some words. :redface: My intent is to mainly set the record straight when it comes to the myths, misinformation and FUD on hybrids (and to a lesser extent on PHEVs and EVs) and fuel economy related topics.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

cwerdna said:


> My intent is to mainly set the record straight when it comes to the myths, misinformation and FUD on hybrids (and to a lesser extent on PHEVs and EVs) and fuel economy related topics.


That's funny I didn't realize the Cruze was a hybrid. Your expertise seems unrelated to 99.9% of topics on here. Go test drive a cruze & you will probably trade off that toy car you are driving, I will welcome your opinion once you buy/own a cruze.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

When they come out with the hybrid Cruze in 2014, come back and compare the two. Until then, kbye. 


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## Drewsiph87 (Feb 17, 2011)

cwerdna incase you can't take the hint, GTFO!!! No one here cares about your opinion, and no one here cares what a boring a$$ Prius gets for fuel economy or what kind of deals you can get on one at some Toyota dealership. If we did then we probably would have bought a Prius and wouldn't be on this forum anyway and your opinion would still be meaningless to us. GO AWAY!


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## 70AARCUDA (Nov 14, 2010)

weimerrj said:


> I specifically ruled out a Prius because I didn't want to be thought of as a person like cwerdna.


...hey, be *nice* to the guy!

...at least, now, everybody knows *who* the "*Devils Advocates*" posting here are, *cwerdna* and *me* (wink,wink)!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

cwerdna said:


> I should clarify my remark, as I guess I left out some words. :redface: My intent is to mainly set the record straight when it comes to the myths, misinformation and FUD on hybrids (and to a lesser extent on PHEVs and EVs) and fuel economy related topics.


So you're here to set the myths, misinformation, and FUD on hybrids. That's great. That leaves no more need for CR-Bible bashing, right?


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## horsehaulin (Oct 1, 2011)

If this thread is going to continue, certain members need to check their bias at the front page. I will not allow a food fight in my mess hall. 



Sent from my iPhone.


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## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

Bump for 4 year update to old thread......

Now that we've lived with the CTD for 3 full years, does anyone have any different thoughts about diesels and their reliability etc.??? 

I know I love my 15 CTD., but reliability issues, frequent regens and diesel emissions equipment failures ( Def tanks, sensors, CEL, ) have me questioning whether it's the be -all -end -all of diesel passenger cars.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Mine has been on the road for 34 months and 49,000 miles. 

I am completely satisfied. I would buy again without hesitation. 

I am very pleased that I bought the 7 / 100 GMPP. 

Out of my pocket I've only paid for a battery; DEF, oil and filter; one air and one HVAC filter; one nav update; broken bolt at SCR catalyst. 

GMPP has paid for: two blind spot monitor sensors and programming; a radio and programming; an antenna; a trunk release button. 

3 / 36 has paid for: one NOx sensor; a TCM; reprogram of steering module.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

you didnt get new battery cable?


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

boraz said:


> you didnt get new battery cable?


No. No apparent need. At least not at this time.


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## spaycace (Feb 9, 2012)

coinneach said:


> One of the excuses I've read for why E85 is a Good Thing is that it's made with a different (non-edible) type of maize. The problem is that the E85 type grows on the same land as the types eaten by humans and cattle. If a farmer can earn more with the non-edible type, that's what he'll grow, good intentions be d*mned. So either way, E85 interferes with food crops. By contrast, the only people I know who eat blue-green algae are extreme fringies and plecostomus.


Having grown up in "the Heartland" of America, I can tell you there is plenty of un-farmed land which can be used for food crops as well as fuel crops, so we're really not in any danger of not having enough to supply either demand. The real problem with corn-based ethanol is that it's not the most efficient plant base to get ethanol from. Brazil has figured out that sugar cane actually is a very efficient source to use for ethanol production. There are pros and cons to any type of fuel that people choose to use (or have forced upon them) but I agree that diesels have come a LONG way since the early days of diesel passenger cars in the U.S. I owned a 1982 Pontiac Grand Prix with a 5.7L diesel engine, and I actually LOVED that car! The only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that it wasn't turbo-charged, which diesel engines love/practically require. Most people don't like diesel because it's dirty and smelly when you're filling up your car, and I'll admit, the filler nozzles can get a bit nasty from time to time. When I recently purchased a Camaro I was on the fence as to whether or not to buy it, or purchase a Colorado diesel, or wait to see what the 2017 Cruze diesel comes out the gates with as far as transmission choices. In the end, it was the Camaro winning out due to my "Better Half" being happy with how I spent my closed out 401(k) monies. Yeah, it sucks for me in a way, but life is also much sweeter for me and the kids when she's happy!


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## Gator (Jul 14, 2013)

Very happy with my purchase of the 1st run of the CTD. 115000 miles, so far EGR valve,battery and soon bolts on SCR other than that trouble free.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

GlennGlenn said:


> Bump for 4 year update to old thread......
> 
> Now that we've lived with the CTD for 3 full years, does anyone have any different thoughts about diesels and their reliability etc.???
> 
> I know I love my 15 CTD., but reliability issues, frequent regens and diesel emissions equipment failures ( Def tanks, sensors, CEL, ) have me questioning whether it's the be -all -end -all of diesel passenger cars.


173K miles as of this writing on my diesel Cruze and still love the car. It's not been perfect, but it's been reliable and continues to serve me well.


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## Gator (Jul 14, 2013)

Diesel, did you get the SCR bolts changed out yet? Just curious to what the old gasket looked like.


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## Chevy Customer Care (Oct 29, 2011)

Tomko said:


> Mine has been on the road for 34 months and 49,000 miles.
> 
> I am completely satisfied. I would buy again without hesitation.
> 
> ...


Hey there Tomko,

We're so happy to hear that you love your Cruze and are thrilled to have you as a member of our GM family! If you have any future questions or concerns, please feel free to reach out to us. 

Have a great day!

Chelsea D.
Chevrolet Customer Care


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Gator said:


> Diesel, did you get the SCR bolts changed out yet? Just curious to what the old gasket looked like.


I bought the gasket but haven't yet taken it to the muffler shop. I have a vacation coming up in a few weeks and planning on taking it in then, but will get under there and take a really good look when I change my oil at 175K.


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## Gator (Jul 14, 2013)

Gotcha


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## JRB'sOilburningCruze (Feb 25, 2015)

I've had several discussions with my wife about buying the Cruze Diesel. I like to bounce things off of her to see what she is thinking and to see if what I thinking about value holds in her eyes. So far she likes the Cruze, it is my daily driver. However, on the weekends it is her preferred vehicle to use. Her DD is a 2007 Nissan Quest minivan. The only thing, that has given her concern it made 3 trips to the dealer for warranty items. The Quest has 162,000 miles on it and it never went back to the dealer for any warranty items. The only repairs we've done to it besides normal maintenance are a power steering hose & new lower control arms. Those repairs just happened in the last 2 weeks. She likes the fuel economy, likes the power for a 4 cylinder, and likes all the bells and whistles the car came with. We are looking to replace the minivan next year when the Cruze is paid off. We also have a Chevy Silverado, she is open to the idea of selling her van and the Silverado and get a new 4 door Colorado. I mentioned the Colorado has a diesel option and she said if we got the Colorado she'd want the diesel because of the the increased fuel economy. So long story short, I like the CTD and so does headquarters/Chief Financial Officer.


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## 72specialized (Apr 24, 2016)

I've only owned my diesel for less then 2 months. I have 7700km on it so far and am very impressed with it. My best L/100km is 4.8. My fuel bill and car payment are about half of what I was paying weekly just to put gas in my Jeep. It ride very comfortably and has lots of power for my needs. My biggest dislike is the dumb ass design of the truck hinges, nice 70's design GM!


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