# Dirty EGR- pics inside. Cause of my issues?



## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

I will try to send you the AllDataDIY job for the EGR cooler later today. Definitely get ALL gaskets needed first because one of them took a month to arrive for me and I think someone else had a gasket take even more than that. As for whether the symptoms are related, I'm not really sure, but in general a stuck open EGR can cause hesitating and bucking. When you first start up and are at idle the intake air bypasses the EGR cooler to help the car warm up, so if it's not doing the bucking right away until you start moving that could be why. My EGR and cooler were heavily clogged and I had no driving symptoms or CEL (and tons of dealer visits with no DTCs, one DTC finally came up which is how it got replaced). Maybe yours is just worse enough to cause enough restriction that is actually leading to symptoms ... or your valve could be stuck in more open position. Either way it's sure not good to be clogged like that.

Can you clarify where this photo is on the car? Just curious since having my EGR and cooler didn't solve my problem (frequent regens) so I'm always wondering if there's somewhere else I should check or monitor for re-clogging.


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## vwgtiglx (Jun 13, 2013)

I think possibly glow plugs could be an issue here. That reminds me of my VW Rabbit diesel in the old days.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

vwgtiglx said:


> I think possibly glow plugs could be an issue here. That reminds me of my VW Rabbit diesel in the old days.


The issue is happening even on days where temps are in the 80s, I’m inclined to believe it might not be glow plugs but it’s something I’ll keep in mind




BodhiBenz1987 said:


> I will try to send you the AllDataDIY job for the EGR cooler later today. Definitely get ALL gaskets needed first because one of them took a month to arrive for me and I think someone else had a gasket take even more than that. As for whether the symptoms are related, I'm not really sure, but in general a stuck open EGR can cause hesitating and bucking. When you first start up and are at idle the intake air bypasses the EGR cooler to help the car warm up, so if it's not doing the bucking right away until you start moving that could be why. My EGR and cooler were heavily clogged and I had no driving symptoms or CEL (and tons of dealer visits with no DTCs, one DTC finally came up which is how it got replaced). Maybe yours is just worse enough to cause enough restriction that is actually leading to symptoms ... or your valve could be stuck in more open position. Either way it's sure not good to be clogged like that.
> 
> Can you clarify where this photo is on the car? Just curious since having my EGR and cooler didn't solve my problem (frequent regens) so I'm always wondering if there's somewhere else I should check or monitor for re-clogging.




This photo was taken where the intake charge pipe meets the egr on the top of the engine. I popped the clip off with a flathead, removed the pipe and pushed it to the side and saw the spot inside my intake where the egr goes into the intake. Sorry for the description, I don’t have a photo of where it is


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Carminooch said:


> The issue is happening even on days where temps are in the 80s, I’m inclined to believe it might not be glow plugs but it’s something I’ll keep in mind
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I can picture it now, so it's looking into the throttle valve, right? I'll have to look at it on mine. I think they cleaned it up when they replaced the EGR valve and cooler on mine. I have seen tutorials on cleaning the intake throttle assembly on the Gen 1 and I assume it would be similar on ours. Same with cleaning the EGR valve. The cooler I think would be more complicated but might be possible. I sent you a PDF via PM, let me know if it doesn't work.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Sounds absolutely like what the 1st gens like to do when the EGR valve starts to get sticky - before it sticks open and prevents the car from starting.

I consider the cleaning of the EGR valve (and throttle valve) to be regular maintenance on these vehicles - been meaning to do ours again, as it's been about 30-40k miles since the last time I did it, and the car runs a bit rough at startup, so it is time for it.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

I was thinking about this and was thinking the sticky EGR throws off the pilot injection.

The pilot injection is where a tiny bit of fuel is injected and combusted to initiate combustion in a calm way to eliminate the classic diesel clatter

With the EGR not functioning as it should the combustion doesn't happen cleanly during the pilot injection - so the main combustion that happens later presents a knock as if the pilot injection never happened.

The rough running is due to main injection not going well either. Air fuel mix is off.woth sticky EGR 

Sum of two issues gives you clatter and rough running.

I have had this happen in my car and turning off ignition and restarting resolves issue (for now)....

Thanks for the pics. I am definitely going to clean my egr asap. I saw a video with best solvent to use for cleaning. Will find it again and post it up.

Jeff


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

By the way. I purchased a new EGR valve from trunk monkey parts with the gaskets. The cost was around 75 for the valve.

I am going to replace EGR valve and then clean the take off part and out it on the shelf for the next time around 

The EGR cooler is more then $200 so I will remove and clean and out it back on....

Jeff


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

Here is link to best cleaner to use for EGR cleaning. ..









We bench-test diesel EGR Cooler cleaning solutions


We compare five popular diesel EGR cooler cleaning solutions with surprising results.




www.trucktrend.com





Jeff


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

I will add to this that in addition to cleaning the EGR and throttle assembly, check out your MAP sensor. Mine was awful at 27k miles. Honestly inside my intake looks terrible too, at least in my assessment, about the same as my Mercedes looked at 250k miles (it also has an EGR and CC vent system that dumps in oil and soot). Not blocked just gross all over the walls. I'm actually surprised oil level never goes observably down at all given how much oil is in the intake, though I guess a little goes a long way once mixed with soot on those walls. Taking the intake off and cleaning it would be a huge task so hopefully cleaning the other items is sufficient. As noted in my other thread I had some codes come up after unplugging the MAP sensor and cleaning it but they didn't seem to come back once cleared ... I will update on that as time goes on in that thread. I don't think mine was actually bad enough to cause problems, despite how it looks, but if it's really caked it could be throwing off fuel metering or other things in the balance. It reads both manifold pressure and temperature. 
Below is my MAP sensor and what my intake looks like now ... the EGR and cooler were replaced 1,200 miles ago and the EGR pipe that enters the intake manifold was cleaned. So those things are relatively clean but the intake EGR pipe is already starting to gunk up again. The EGR valve itself, I guess looks OK ... I'm assuming they get a layer of soot around the surfaces pretty quick normally. I will monitor over time. I don't know if all of this is typical or if my car is unusually bad. I would think it would be a little better off as much as I have it on the highway but maybe it's the opposite ... I don't need much throttle most of the time on the highway so maybe it's not getting run hard enough. I also doubt it helped early on having the wrong oil put in it by the dealer. My car has had longstanding issues since then (coincidence or not) as noted in my long regen thread. I don't think I will ever know. It is frustrating because I use the car for what everyone says it is made for, the highway, yet have soot-related problems that are more typical of a car used for short trips and left idling. 
Anyhow, I could definitely see the soot buildup eventually leading to the kind of problems @Carminooch and others are having, so hopefully cleaning will resolve them for you guys. From my observations it is certainly feasible that soot could reach troublesome levels without causing a CEL. Like Jeff noted the EGR valve is not very expensive so it wouldn't be prohibitive to buy another one and have a rotation without having to do the whole cleaning process on a time constraint. Luckily the EGR is easily accessible on these cars; on my Jeep is is buried and a huge job.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

oregon_rider said:


> By the way. I purchased a new EGR valve from trunk monkey parts with the gaskets. The cost was around 75 for the valve.
> 
> I am going to replace EGR valve and then clean the take off part and out it on the shelf for the next time around
> 
> ...


Did you need any gaskets with the EGR Valve?


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Cruz15 said:


> Did you need any gaskets with the EGR Valve?


There is a rubber gasket for the valve assembly itself. When I took mine out to inspect it I reused the gasket (since mine is 1k miles old) but when you replace the valve the gasket is supposed to be replaced. For the pipes that go from the EGR cooler into the intake, there are two gaskets and one of them was the one that took GM a month to supply for my car ... I believe that is the type you replace any time it is removed ... so if you're removing that pipe to clean, plan way ahead ordering the gaskets.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

The cooler is a lot more work to get off than that outlet pipe, which is what's visible in your photo. There's no special procedures required to remove the cooler itself though, it's just that it's a little down there on the head. Honestly you could probably get by without replacing the gaskets if you had to. They all are technically supposed to be replaced though. I've never attempted to clean on of these coolers, but most GM coolers tend to not respond particularly well to he based cleaning procedures once they are good and gunked up. Alright Purple Power or an oven cleaner tend to work best. 
Commercial cleaning with specialized solvents, heated agitation tanks is often required, and can vary wildly in price depending on where you live, both methods involve potentially lots of your time and some of your money. A new cooler should be under $250 only you know how much your time and effort are worth, and whether "possibly" cleaning it is an acceptable outcome


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

Cruz15 said:


> Did you need any gaskets with the EGR Valve?


This is what I ordered off the parts fiche. I have not. done work yet so can't confirm....


*Item #**Description**Qty*​55577389Egr Valve Gasket1​55497054Egr Valve Gasket1​55570005Egr Valve1​


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Ma v e n said:


> The cooler is a lot more work to get off than that outlet pipe, which is what's visible in your photo. There's no special procedures required to remove the cooler itself though, it's just that it's a little down there on the head. Honestly you could probably get by without replacing the gaskets if you had to. They all are technically supposed to be replaced though. I've never attempted to clean on of these coolers, but most GM coolers tend to not respond particularly well to he based cleaning procedures once they are good and gunked up. Alright Purple Power or an oven cleaner tend to work best.
> Commercial cleaning with specialized solvents, heated agitation tanks is often required, and can vary wildly in price depending on where you live, both methods involve potentially lots of your time and some of your money. A new cooler should be under $250 only you know how much your time and effort are worth, and whether "possibly" cleaning it is an acceptable outcome


Thank you for that Maven. Is there any way to clean the whole intake after the valve?


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

This is also what I’m wondering, what kind of procedure is involved to remove the intake to deep clean it

I take my car to a new dealership tomorrow so I’ll update back here.

Dealership #3 seemed responsive and empathetic to the amount of time I’ve put into trying to figure this out. Said they’d entertain letting me park the car anywhere to make it hesitate and buck. Looked at pics/video of my egr, so we’ll see

I’d be thrilled if they replaced the egr and egr cooler assembly but I’d settle for a cleaning as long as they do the intake piping as well


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Cruz15 said:


> Thank you for that Maven. Is there any way to clean the whole intake after the valve?


I am curious about this as well, or if it is necessary. When I had the EGR and cooler replaced last month the dealer cleaned out the area around where the EGR pipe enters the intake, but not deeper into the intake. I did ask them if they thought I had to worry about the intake being filled with anything given how bad the rest was and they did not think it was a concern. They seemed to know their stuff so I trust it is maybe not worth the invasiveness of cleaning it (i.e. maybe it always ends up looking like it does now?). But I overthink things and worry about the overall health of my engine, especially since I've seen four times as many regens as anyone else who's driven my distance.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Carminooch said:


> This is also what I’m wondering, what kind of procedure is involved to remove the intake to deep clean it
> 
> I take my car to a new dealership tomorrow so I’ll update back here.
> 
> ...


It's promising that they were empathetic, that goes a long way. Especially when you have been dismissed over and over, just having someone take you seriously is a relief. I hope they can recreate the symptom and solve it finally.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

Removing the manifold is even more time consuming than removing the cooler. I would absolutely replace the gaskets if you remove the intake. Bonus of taking the manifold off is that you can also clean the crankcase ventilation passages. The intake manifold can likely be easily walnut blasted by a machine shop, you could also use purple power, spray nine, or gasoline to clean it. I don't know if I'd let it soak for hours though, I'd probably have a strong soak bucket, and a rinse bucket, and go back and forth every 15-20 minutes. I've never long term soaked one of the plastic manifolds, should be okay though.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. I will not be taking off the intake manifold.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

The bucking and hesitating is happening no longer intermittently but 100% of all cold starts upon light throttle to get up to speed

Cars at a new shop, showed them the egr photos, told them exactly how to replicate the issue. Fingers crossed I have an answer soon


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Update: just got off the phone with the dealership

They confirmed and replicated the bucking and hesitating issue

They hooked it up to their computer and don’t see anything wrong at all, but they said they are willing to take my advice and clean the egr and “hope” that takes care of it

They want to charge me $98.38 for the crimped metal pipe that routes the EGR into the intake, a gasket or two, and an hour of labor which brings the total to $230 plus tax. But they can’t guarantee this will fix it.

$230 plus tax seems steep for an issue I was bringing my car in for way before my warranty was up. Not only that but no guarantee it’ll be fixed

I also find it odd that because this is the emissions system, he said it’s not covered under the emissions warranty?


Has anyone had luck getting a dealership to cover this under the emissions warranty? I’m pretty annoyed I have to pay at all, that this emissions component isn’t covered under my emissions warranty, and that cleaning the EGR valve and replacing the pipe may not fix the issue. I mentioned the intake, MAP sensor, and the egr cooler also probably being plugged up and their response was “yeah well you just never really know what could be causing this”

I don’t know, it sounds to me if a car is bucking and hesitating this wildly, hook a laptop up and watch the EGR commanded open, egr temps, flow, it’s like nobody wants to figure out why something is broken anymore. All anyone wants to do is throw parts at something


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

For an hour of labor all they are doing may likely be is replacing the cooler outlet pipe you showed them a picture of. If they are removing the cooler and valve and cleaning them...that's a killer deal. But I can with 99.46% assurance say they aren't. 

Unfortunately somehow on the Cruze neither the pipe, nor the cooler are covered by anything other than base warranty. The lack of coverage on important parts/lack of warranty comparable to a Duramax are the reason I didn't buy one myself and opted for the 1.4


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Ma v e n said:


> For an hour of labor all they are doing may likely be is replacing the cooler outlet pipe you showed them a picture of. If they are removing the cooler and valve and cleaning them...that's a killer deal. But I can with 99.46% assurance say they aren't.
> 
> Unfortunately somehow on the Cruze neither the pipe, nor the cooler are covered by anything other than base warranty. The lack of coverage on important parts/lack of warranty comparable to a Duramax are the reason I didn't buy one myself and opted for the 1.4


I brought up the cooler and he said they have to try this first. Which is good for them because if only doing half the job doesn’t fix the entire issue, I get to come back and pay for more labor and more gaskets for them to do the cooler also another time 

I contacted Carnax today and I think I’ll be getting rid of the car

I’m going to get it fixed, complain to my GM senior customer care advisor, and hopefully not have to pay for anything. I’ve been trying to figure this out since before my warranty was expired

I’m considering a pre-DPF and pre-SCR tdi, or next time I go overseas I’m considering an early 90’s diesel Mercedes. I hold citizenship in Europe and might try to import a pre-95. I’m comfortable on older diesel mercedes but refuse to drive an automatic which is why I’m looking to Europe. Also some sweet cloth interiors and rare packages...

Don’t know anything about how carmax works or importing cars from Europe but hoping to figure out both so I know which route to take


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Carminooch said:


> I brought up the cooler and he said they have to try this first. Which is good for them because if only doing half the job doesn’t fix the entire issue, I get to come back and pay for more labor and more gaskets for them to do the cooler also another time
> 
> I contacted Carnax today and I think I’ll be getting rid of the car
> 
> ...


Well, I am disappointed to hear this outcome. It is really discouraging that a dealer can recreate an obviously bad symptom and just say "we don't know, we can't do anything, here's your car back". I don't even necessarily blame dealers because I really think modern car repair leaves techs without a paddle if there are no codes. I guess that's how behind the times I am but that sort of stuns me ... especially when there is a very obvious physical symptom like yours. And also since I've read multiple issues from other owners that didn't throw any codes ... among them the flywheel failures, the clutch slave failures, and injector failures. I know mine is a whole other story, but even that, I have documented so much data that mathematically underscores an obvious problem, but it's just going to be left unchecked until my next turbo blows or my DPF dies or my engine wears out at 50k miles or who knows. The kicker is in many cases there the possibility of an ECM/electrical problem, but diagnosis is 100% reliant on the ECM ... and even if that's not the problem, it seems the programming on these cars is very good at adapting to abnormalities ... which is good to an extent but not when it masks a problem.
In your case I would definitely say call your GM rep and push to have it covered under good will. Honestly that's one reason I keep constantly getting on their case about mine ... I know they aren't going to fix it, but if stuff starts failing soon out of warranty, I'm going to toss them my history of two years of begging them to fix it under warranty. In your case they verified a physical symptom that you have been attempting to have fixed for ages ... if they can't figure it out, they should be paying for the guesses, not you. On principle at least ... I know life doesn't always work that way.
Anyhow I hope putting some pressure via customer service helps. I get whole frustrating and time consuming the whole thing is, and why at a point it just makes sense to sell the car. I've had those moments with mine, though I'm in a little easier boat since 1) my car's drivability isn't that effected (yet) and 2) I do have an extended bumper to bumper warranty that is supposed to give me another 40k and four years of coverage (who knows if they're got to hit me with loopholes in that though). I am also in a position that I can have more than one car, so if this ends up being yet another "hobby car", which it already kind of is, then it just is what it is. It's hard to get past the principle of the fact I paid for a brand new car, and an extra warranty, two years ago, and within a year I was totally left for dead by dealer/GM support, with the first dealer actually screwing things up further along the way.
On a more positive note, if you can import a Euro-spec diesel Benz, that's a win. My 1987 300D is the best car I have ever owned. Granted I am a little biased by sentimentality because it was my first car, and my dad's car since new. Unfortunately mine was super rusty and I bit off more than I can chew with a restoration ... I'm maybe half done after four years (though the half I've done I'm really proud of). I keep thinking about buying another but don't mainly because I want to keep myself motivated to fix mine. Mine is an auto of course being a US model but even so it's just a great car. Simple enough for me to work on, easy to get parts, but modern enough to be a really comfortable highway cruiser with a lot of creature comforts. Sure it doesn't get the fuel economy of the Cruze and is a little slower (but not much) but assuming I get it finished, if someone said I could only have one car for the rest of my life, the 300D would be it, hands down.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

A little update:

Dealer #3 can replicate the issue. Was told that if you “punch it, it comes out of that spot”. I live in a 30mph zone and I’m not “punching it”. I almost can’t believe this was advice a real GM dealership gave me

They said they would not be willing to cover cleaning my egr and replacing the pipe and gasket for free, as they consider this a “maintenance item” what they’re doing- pulling the egr, cleaning it, and replacing the hose and gaskets for 230 plus tax

Doesn’t include egr cooler which is....most certainly also almost clogged

I asked if this is what’s indeed causing the issue and they said they don’t know but they’d be happy to perform this if I’m willing to pay for it. They’re very happy to take my money and change a part but not at all willing to look into why the car is doing this

I declined dealership 3’s offer and said forget I ever suggested the egr, button er back up and call GM- partner with them on the next steps. I was told they already contacted corporate and had no solution, and that they “reallllly need their loaner car back”. I let them know to take all the time they need to figure it out, I’ve got their loaner car and won’t be back until it’s fixed


Contacted the same customer care advisor I’ve been working with. He confirms dealership #3 has not reached out for assistance from them. Seems trivial to lie about but I guess they really don’t want to bother fixing the car. Last I spoke to the dealership, they didn’t want to look into it and kept telling me that there’s no check engine light or codes present so meh


I’ve got their loaner car and GM is giving them until Thursday to reach out apparently “or else”

Boy it’s slippery trying to find a dealership to do some detective work. Dealer 1 lied and felt the issue after multiple visits, but gave up with 80 miles left on my bumper to bumper warranty and declined to look into it further. Dealer 2 lied, left bolts loose on an unrelated component replaced, and strung me along for 2 months. Dealer 3 lied and tried to throw in the towel so I take the car back. What a greasy, greeeeasy bunch, these dealerships. I have to wonder if my expectations are too high


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

"maintenance item" LMFAO.


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## johnmo (Mar 2, 2017)

Ma v e n said:


> "maintenance item" LMFAO.


When they say "maintenance item," hand them the owners manual and ask them to show you where it's explained in the maintenance section of the manual.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

I looked over my manuals from the glovebox and was shocked to see confirmation that the EGR is not covered under the federal emissions warranty. I ignorantly assumed it was covered. 

I found a good dealer and now need to drive 100 miles to get her worked on.... Worth it to me as I feel good giving them my business.

I have an alldata diy account and will be swapping EGR valve and cleaning cooler soon. Thinking about doing video for youtube when I do it. My brother needs to borrow the car for a few days and will deal with her after that...

jeff


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

oregon_rider said:


> I looked over my manuals from the glovebox and was shocked to see confirmation that the EGR is not covered under the federal emissions warranty. I ignorantly assumed it was covered.
> 
> I found a good dealer and now need to drive 100 miles to get her worked on.... Worth it to me as I feel good giving them my business.
> 
> ...


That would be much appreciated. I would like to see that.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

oregon_rider said:


> I looked over my manuals from the glovebox and was shocked to see confirmation that the EGR is not covered under the federal emissions warranty. I ignorantly assumed it was covered.
> 
> I found a good dealer and now need to drive 100 miles to get her worked on.... Worth it to me as I feel good giving them my business.
> 
> ...


I hear the egr cooler is a real pain to remove, I think that’s why the dealership is fighting me so hard. They don’t want to cover the work, the gaskets, parts, nothin. Say it’s just normal maintenance. Your good dealership is worth it’s weight in gold! Glad you’ve got a good one out by you

I’ve got some mechanical aptitude, my diesel knowledge is on pre-emissions cat, Cummins, Detroit’s, old passenger Mercedes diesels and sprinter vans. These are a whole new frontier for me and nothing on this car seems easy to work on

In a perfect world I’d delete the egr. But I void my warranty. 

I’d settle for cleaning my egr, egr cooler, and intake including MAP sensor but I couldn’t even squeeze a free oil change out of these wrench spinners after all this trouble 


Jeff I’d love to see that video, it would also make a terrific sticky on here for future reference. 

Love this forum and the DIY, I’m glad I’m a part of this community


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

I did a quick scan of the instructions for both the EGR valve replacement and the EGR cooler replacement. 

The EGR cooler replacement labor is definitely more complex. The book time for simply replacing the EGR valve is a little over an hour. The book time for EGR cooler replacement is over five hours.

Note that the EGR cooler replacement time includes the EGR valve removal and replacement.

I have a 2005 chev Duramax diesel where I try to do all the work on it myself.

I am an electrical engineer who started riding off road motorcycles when i.was 12 and learned mechanic skills at an early age. After that I bought a 1947 Willy's Jeep that kept me busy. .. That being said, vehicles these days are so complex I usually confine myself to hard parts like brake pads, alternators, shocks, etc.

I feel like I have never had to throw in the towel and have a rig towed to a experienced mechanic. But I sure have come close a couple of times!!

Jeff


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Boring (but big) update: after gentle nudging, stern talks, convincing data, 10 months of GM’s customer care support, I finally have a dealership partnering with the TAC team to address the drivability issues and the possibility it’s my egr system


It’s astounding it took 10 months of back and forth, 3 dealerships, and two calls a week with GM’s customer care to finally get a dealership to partner with higher ups to determine what’s going on


My money is on the egr, egr cooler, and the MAP sensor possibly 

Good news is the car has sat on a dealer lot for so long not getting worked on that my new car smell finally came back


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Carminooch said:


> Boring (but big) update: after gentle nudging, stern talks, convincing data, 10 months of GM’s customer care support, I finally have a dealership partnering with the TAC team to address the drivability issues and the possibility it’s my egr system
> 
> 
> It’s astounding it took 10 months of back and forth, 3 dealerships, and two calls a week with GM’s customer care to finally get a dealership to partner with higher ups to determine what’s going on
> ...


That sounds promising ... hope it results in a real solution! I'm going to try to get mine back to the dealer next week or the next ... I sort of dread it because I've literally put more preparation, research, and time into this ongoing battle than I did into my honors thesis back in the day. And every time I have to make my case over again I feel like I'm presenting a dissertation in statistics. I'm at 14 months of this now and it's a likelihood my issue has done significant damage or at least extreme wear to multiple components over that time. So part of me isn't surprised at the ridiculous lack of interest from dealers/GM in solving your problem ... but part of me still can't believe they went to the extent of observing a blatant physical malfunction and shrug it off. Hopefully you finally found the magic book on the hidden bookcase door.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> That sounds promising ... hope it results in a real solution! I'm going to try to get mine back to the dealer next week or the next ... I sort of dread it because I've literally put more preparation, research, and time into this ongoing battle than I did into my honors thesis back in the day. And every time I have to make my case over again I feel like I'm presenting a dissertation in statistics. I'm at 14 months of this now and it's a likelihood my issue has done significant damage or at least extreme wear to multiple components over that time. So part of me isn't surprised at the ridiculous lack of interest from dealers/GM in solving your problem ... but part of me still can't believe they went to the extent of observing a blatant physical malfunction and shrug it off. Hopefully you finally found the magic book on the hidden bookcase door.


Yikes I hope your issues get sorted out soon... it’s a shame the dealer network is gutting any confidence in the car. If servicing it was easy, it wouldn’t feel like such a risk to own this car


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Update: Thursday my GM advisor excitedly tells me the dealership has a TAC number and their next step is to formally request a field service engineer comes to check the car out. He explains he let them know and has already set up communications to have someone partner directly with the dealership once they reach out to GM for help

Friday: dealership calls and the service advisor angerly states that he “doesn’t know what [I’m] trying to do here” and gets all sassy about me having their loaner car for so long. He said that the technician said there’s no carbon buildup in the egr valve. He later in the phone call says look, you can either have your egr cleaned for $250 or you gotta bring our loaner car back. He lost it when I again reminded him that he just said the car has no carbon buildup in the egr, so he blindly transferred me to someone who identified themself as a manager

Manager was nicer and didn’t try to talk all over me. I explained what I’ve been dealing with and he claims GM never reached out to the dealership. And that they realllllly need their loaner car back. 

GM did reach out because my service advisor got really butt hurt that I had the audacity to challenge them to fix the car and if they aren’t able to, partner with GM


So at this point I have the dealership calling me and telling me they definitely feel the issue. Yet there’s nothing wrong with the car because there’s no check engine light on. And that my egr apparently doesn’t have any carbon on it but they’d be happy to charge me $250 for cleaning. And because there’s no check engine light, there’s no failed part, which means there’s no problem. So they want their loaner car back.



Slimy. Can’t wait to hear what GM has to say. All this to just try to get a car fixed



At the Caterpillar dealership, if a customer brings in machinery that has a major usability issue without a check engine light, it’s diagnosed. They don’t tell someone paying money that “well we give up, there’s no check engine light and we don’t feel like looking into it”


I’m on my third dealership and all three have either lied, gotten aggressive, or want to give up. Do I keep the car?? This all sounds like a huge financial liability to me down the line

I have a warranty, do I return my warranty pro-rated and spend the money on a full delete? I’m very much against that, the equipment is in place to help the environment and if we all deleted our cars, air quality would drastically suffer. I just can’t figure out what to do. Do I sell the car when I get it back? I don’t want to give up my unicorn


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## lbkNhubert (May 18, 2017)

Can you name the dealers?

Rant follows:

This car was my first and will be my last modern GM vehicle. Years ago I had a used late 70s camaro, it was fine. I am trying to decide if I should suck it up and keep the car or trade it in for something else that I will enjoy more. I'm leaning towards sucking it up, but that's going to mean a decade or more driving a car that I find adequate at best. I dislike the soft steering feel, it is horrible in the snow (yes, I could put on snow tires, and that would improve things, but somehow have managed never to need them on my other vehicles, none of which has been anywhere close to as bad as this car).

I experienced the clutch cylinder failure. I've recounted this elsewhere on this site, but I'll run through it again here: I managed to get it home the first first time it broke down, and had it towed to the dealer, who "fixed" it. It broke down again while I was on vacation. We had it towed to the dealer there, managed on a weekend to find a rental car (the one the dealer used was closed for the weekend), the clutch was again "fixed." It broke again a few weeks later when I was an hour away from home, I managed to limp it home and have it towed back to my home dealer. The service manager there said that he would have my rental car cost from the breakdown on vacation (nearly 1k) covered, so I gave him copies of the paperwork. It never was covered, and he won't take or return my calls. Thanks GM, I'll actively recommend against you forevermore. Your car sucks, your service sucks, your company sucks. May you rot.

My advice, get rid of the car as fast as you can. It's going to continue to break, it's no longer being manufactured, GM and their dealerships are not interested in standing behind it. I don't want to eat the depreciation on mine so I may wind up hanging on to it. It'll likely come down to if I want to spend a decade with a car that is only "meh".


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Carminooch said:


> Yikes I hope your issues get sorted out soon... it’s a shame the dealer network is gutting any confidence in the car. If servicing it was easy, it wouldn’t feel like such a risk to own this car


Yeah, exactly. And the thing is I actually was impressed with my third dealer and think they genuinely wanted to fix my issue. The deflating thing is I think it won't matter ... with no CEL and a very strange phantom issue, the likelihood of them finding something specific is low. They would have to start replacing/repairing things on educated theory, which is actually how a lot of diagnostics work in the world and even the service manual for this car ... but GM won't let them. Even a good dealer is helpless when GM Tech tells them nothing is wrong with the car and advises them to essentially tell the customer to shove it. I'm at the point where if they have an idea and GM won't cover it, I'd just throw money at it (I already paid out of pocket for a DPF sensor/lines on my own guess, because there was a hole in one line ... didn't work). But then I will have spent loads of my own money while I have the factory warranty in place AND an extended warranty I paid good money for ... AND even if I get the problem fixed, GM isn't going to do anything to account for the fact that my car has been torching its emissions system (and maybe the engine, depending on where the issue originates) for over a year. In my opinion if you can't or refuse to fix a customer's car in over a year and tell them they have to keep driving it in a compromised state, you'd better lifetime warranty every single part potentially involved. But GM knows it isn't going to be their problem. I don't think they are alone in this. My friend recently had a pretty drawn-out drama with his Dodge truck wherein Chrysler basically refused to replace his radio (which is its own control module that handles functions vital to driving) ... the dealer pretty much had to fry the radio until the truck wouldn't even start before Chrysler would send a replacement radio unit. It did get fixed but it was a whole lot of unnecessary BS and the conversations sounded familiar. So I don't know ... I think the whole philosophy behind repair has changed with technology and not in a good way.

So yeah, all that is to say I understand the "do I keep the car?" dilemma. I worry about the potential loss of time and money, and even if warranty covers things, there's still the loss of time ... and stress. I have anxiety issues as it is (I'm sure that's not hard to guess) but with my other cars I can talk myself down by telling myself, whatever is wrong, I'll figure it out, I'll fix it, or I'll find an expert to fix it. And to be honest even not being any mechanical whiz it's usually the first two and maybe some help on the internet. With this car I can't figure it out, I can't fix it, and worst of all, no one can. The reality is no matter how much I blame GM, it's possible that it just comes down to no one being able to figure out what weird subtle thing is happening to cause my issue. If I didn't love the car, I'd probably just keep it through warranty and when it wears out, it wears out. Or trade it for a nice used Hyundai. Or just sell it ... I have enough old cars to get where I need to go. But it's a unicorn, it's the first and likely only car I've ever ordered myself, it's a super cool car, and I've put a lot of effort into keeping it well cared for both mechanically and cosmetically. I'd hate to give up on it based on the fear of something that I don't even know will happen ... I think it will cause failure/wear but I don't _know_. There's also stories like @lbkNhubert has that I'm afraid of. At dealer #2 when they condescendingly told me nothing was wrong with the car, and if there is, something will eventually fail and when the CEL comes on bring it back and then they can fix it. I asked what would happen if that happened while I was 1,000 miles from home and they claimed GM would cover my expenses ... I thought (but didn't say) ... "ha yeah right". I took the car on shorter road trips a few times with no incident but hesitate to do the longer type of trips I used to do. If the issue manifests itself in a failure 50 miles from home, I have AAA and I lose an afternoon. If it happens 20 states away, that's another story.

I don't know what to advise you but I think if they can fix your issue, I would say keep the car for a while and see what happens. There have been a few people who had a whole host of issues early and have since gone 50k trouble free. If it starts reoccurring, then I don't know, there may be a point you cut your losses. I admit I am spoiled because I am able to have multiple cars, so that makes my decision easier since the risks of getting stuck without a car are lower. As far as a delete, I don't really want to do that either, and in either of our cases, we don't even know it would fix the problem. It's tough. I still don't regret buying the car, I just wish I had more power over it's "health" and future.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Dealer #3 update: after lots of back and forth with GM and the dealer, I got them to agree to clean the egr system out.

They claimed it was clogged up and wanted to charge me $250 to clean it based on the request I had that they do so. At this point they are still completely unwilling to partner with GM to diagnose the car.

I pushed and told them and GM that I will not take the car back until they partner with GM to diagnose the issue first. Don’t just take my word for it, figure out the problem.

I decided to go away for a week. I’ve got a 2006 sprinter van in converting into a camper and wanted to go off grid for the week.

I came back and was supposed to have a scheduled call from GM to discuss the findings from the week of allegedly working with GM and the dealership to diagnose the issue. Call day comes, call day goes, 4 days come and go and no word from GM, no scheduled callback, nothing. The dealership calls and says “cars done, pick it up”. They can’t give me a straight answer what they did, can’t tell me if they did or didn’t partner with GM and are unwilling to admit the EGR is causing my issue. “But we did what you asked us to, the egr is clean”.

I decided to take a chance and pick up the car. I dropped the loaner off and got my car from the far back of the parking lot (which means if the issue still persists, I won’t feel it under those brief driving conditions). 

I get the car home and the next day, it’s still bucking but not as bad. And I have a theory why.

They only replaced a short tube in the EGR and cleaned the valve, but left the intake caked in carbon and the cooler almost plugged solid. They fought me so hard on the egr cooler because it takes a lot of time and probably skill, neither of which the dealership displays to have much of. 


My next mission is to dump the car at the dealership and force GM to send a technician out who will properly diagnose the car. 

I’m so angry and fed up, they had the car for weeks. I have 3 voicemails where they were pleading with me to pick my car up because they’re done working on it, they don’t want to bother. Why is it so hard to get help?


They did half the job so it only slightly fixed the rapid deceleration and bucking issue. 


Livid


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Well, that stinks. Hopefully GM will be willing to send a technician who can diagnose it, instead of you having to bounce to 10 different dealers hoping you find one who knows how to work on them. I think the thing that frustrates me at the core of it all is knowing the car was designed and built by humans, who are out there somewhere and could likely diagnose and explain these things in minutes. It's not like their design is an enigma that fell from the sky and no mortal can be expected to understand how they work.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Brief update: car is back at the dealership for same issue. This time I’ve compiled a list and a spreadsheet of conditions this happens under, doesn’t happen under, how to drive to make the issue be felt, etc

I made it clear that they are to partner with GM in the absence of a check engine light, but that they should take a look at the EGR cooler and the MAP sensor

MAP has direct impact on vehicles timing and its downstream of the egr valve inside the intake. My egr was very clogged so I’d imagine the cooler and map sensor are as well

Fingers crossed. Every time I go without the car and then drive it again, I appreciate the way it drives so much more. I’d love to turn this bad experience around and keep the car


I’ve got a loaner car, they have a list of exactly how to drive the car to feel the issue, when it happens, doesn’t happen, etc. I also said I’d happily come down and go on a ride with the mechanic. 

Because these issues began at around 20,000 miles and were documented in detail by previous dealerships, my argument will be that I shouldn’t have to pay a dime for any of this- everything would have previously been covered by the bumper to bumper warranty.

I also have the highest protection from CNA that I purchased (whether it’s of any use or not)


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Quite the saga.. I had a saga with the 7" MyLink unit in one of my cars. At one point they (GM Tech) made an absurd claim that the unit "doesn't work well with Android" and expected that to be a "solution" to the problem with no work done to fix it! After a saga similar to yours, but having to demonstrate using a SECOND CRUZE that I happen to own with the SAME MyLink unit to show them the behaviour was not normal. I joked that I didn't think I would have to own TWO cars with the same unit to prove that the one with problems was in need of replacement! 

Ironically, I had 2 of my Diesel Cruze fleet that had the EGR Coolers replaced under warranty when they threw a CEL for the cooler.. Ironically I never had the issues you are having on either Gen 2 (but did have similar on Gen 1 with a dirty intake/EGR), and frankly the CEL even cleared on it's own, on both cars, but they still replaced it without hassle (except the very, very long delay to get the part). 

I guess my dealership frustrations are pretty minor in comparison, but there is a certain trend, and it's not just a GM thing, I think it's become an issue with most car brands, they are reluctant to do warranty work, because it does'nt pay well, and at times the OEMs won't authorize the work, and they definitly don't want to do it without getting paid, even if it's not paid well. 

As to complexity of these modern vehicles, I can attest to that, I'm working a strange issue on my 2009 Dodge Cummins Truck, where it randomly shuts off the DTC/OBD2 port. It's likely been an issue since new, but I only began to notice when I plugged in a OBD2 monitor. The issue is extra difficult, because that the port that you'd use to connect to the vehicle to get diagnostic information, but when it's down, how to get the picture on what is going on? The CAN Bus that connects the computers seems to be intentionally shuting down that connection, but everything else is working, as far as I can tell, but it's impossible to confirm. In the process to TS this problem, I've had to get a 2 channel O-Scope, because to see any possible interference on the network, that is how you see it... I also now have the Mopar tool and if needed can flash the ECM, with a subscription to the Mopar site.. and that requires a stable fast internet connection, and a solid 13-13.5V constant voltage on the vehicle, it's a project for this weekend.. having said all that, it's true, they do rely on the DTCs from the cars onboard diagnostics to determine what to fix, and when they don't have a code, I think they are at a loss to figure out what is going on, and certainly GM won't let them do old fashioned diagnostics, assuming they actually have techs that know how to do that to begin with. 

On a final note, speaking of DTCs, when my 2009 was still under warranty, it did throw a DTC and MIL light came on, yet when I had the dealer look at it, the simply cleared the code and did nothing else... because the DTC code was for an AUTOMATIC transmission issue.. my truck is a 6sp MANUAL. Looking back, that was likely related to the same issue I'm having now, as I have had other random codes, but NONE of them are applicable to my truck, so they are just spurious and random.. something on the network, some computer is acting up, now to find out which one and fix it.. that is the challenge.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Ironically, I had 2 of my Diesel Cruze fleet that had the EGR Coolers replaced under warranty when they threw a CEL for the cooler.. Ironically I never had the issues you are having on either Gen 2 (but did have similar on Gen 1 with a dirty intake/EGR), and frankly the CEL even cleared on it's own, on both cars, but they still replaced it without hassle (except the very, very long delay to get the part).


That EGR cooler recall is worth bringing up. I forgot about that, even though it was done to my car with basically the same story you tell (CEL, went away on it's own, waited a long time for the part, it was replaced).

The EGR cooler is a new part number, so they've changed something. Maybe that needs to be done to clear up the original poster's problem.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Barry Allen said:


> That EGR cooler recall is worth bringing up. I forgot about that, even though it was done to my car with basically the same story you tell (CEL, went away on it's own, waited a long time for the part, it was replaced).
> 
> The EGR cooler is a new part number, so they've changed something. Maybe that needs to be done to clear up the original poster's problem.


I searched a lot for an egr cooler recall on gen 2, could you help point me in the right direction? I tried google and searching the forum. You may be on to something


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Carminooch said:


> I searched a lot for an egr cooler recall on gen 2, could you help point me in the right direction? I tried google and searching the forum. You may be on to something


I don't have a lot of information other than what I experienced. 

It was a CEL for some EGR codes involving the cooler bypass valve. The ECU bypasses the EGR cooler to help the engine warm up quickly in cold weather, and it also helps the get the engine to operating temperature quickly in hot weather as well. With my CEL the mechanic inspected and found there wasn't excessive soot accumulation that would jam up the valve. He was able to physically actuate the valve (with his hand) and when he used a computer to command the valve to open and close it worked just fine.

Submitting his report to GM technical was enough to get their response to replace the EGR cooler assembly. This took a few months because the part was on backorder. It was probably a combination of redesigning a new part and the GM strike also didn't help. When the part arrived about 4 months later they replaced my EGR cooler and the new part has a new number on it, so something has been changed.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Carminooch said:


> I searched a lot for an egr cooler recall on gen 2, could you help point me in the right direction? I tried google and searching the forum. You may be on to something


I do not recall it bein a recall for the EGR Cooler, but 2 of my 3 Gen 2s did have it replaced. Now it is interesting to note, the last car, lowest miles, It also briefly had the same CEL, but I waited to the next and last free oil change to have the dealship look into it, it had cleared on it's own, and had enough clear time that when they read it, the codes had cleared, so nothing was done. 

It does appear to have a new part number, but the numbers are odd, since the 2 that have been replaced don't have the same numbers, but it is differnt than the original numbers.. so it's hard to know what the deal is, my guess is that these just get dirty, and it's easier to replace than clean them under warranty, as the parts cost is less than many hours of shop labor that would be needed to properly clean them.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> It does appear to have a new part number, but the numbers are odd, since the 2 that have been replaced don't have the same numbers, but it is differnt than the original numbers.. so it's hard to know what the deal is, my guess is that these just get dirty, and it's easier to replace than clean them under warranty, as the parts cost is less than many hours of shop labor that would be needed to properly clean them.


Looking at those numbers on mine, I think they are some sort of casting assembly number or date code. I couldn't really figure it out. The part number is different from what is stamped on that top surface on either my old one or new one. When mine clogged up it threw one DTC but never a CEL. So if I hadn't taken it to the dealer to look for something else, I don't know if I ever would have known ... or maybe it would have just clogged worse. And it had multiple dealer visits where it didn't show any DTCs even though it had to have been at least partially clogged for some time. I think you are right that they just get dirty and it's so much effort to clean them it makes more sense to replace them. It's a bummer because I don't really know what I can do differently to prevent it happening again.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

Obligatory update:

Still no car, no fix, no word at all about ETA.

Dealership #3 has been telling myself and GM advisor for weeks that they are able to replicate the issue all the time, and that they’re taking different readings that GM is asking them to do so. This was 3 weeks ago. Every time I ask what readings, they tell me it’s highly technical and that I’d have to speak with the mechanic 

Every three days I get a follow up call from GM stating that this is what they’re doing and that we are hot on the trail of getting this sorted out. And that I should just trust them because dealership #3 sounds committed to help

I got a call yesterday saying that they’ve actually been unable to reproduce the issue other than 1 time three weeks ago. This is despite them telling me and GM they have been feeling it consistently, and despite a lengthy document I gave them where I outline how to make the issue happen. 

They now want me to take a morning off to come down to their dealership and ride along 

I requested to know exactly what readings and measurements have been taken in the last three weeks and they said none were taken, because they’re unable to reproduce the issue. 

I dropped the car off in May to be worked on and here I am in July, getting the runaround with dealership #3


I talked to the service manager on the phone and he said the problem I’m having is because I’m not letting the car warm up long enough- I claim I warm the car up for 30 seconds to a minute on summer days, and the owners manual says “a few minutes”. Right...it’s 90 degrees out and my car needs to be warmed up for a few minutes. 

Tomorrow I go on my ride-along, the saga continues


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## kickascii (Nov 11, 2015)

Any updates? Biting my nails over here... lol I hope you are able to say that the problem was officially diagnosed and fixed.


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## Carminooch (Mar 23, 2018)

kickascii said:


> Any updates? Biting my nails over here... lol I hope you are able to say that the problem was officially diagnosed and fixed.


I went for a ride along and the car stumbled badly. The tech had a laptop hooked up. We both bolted forward and back in our seat and he looked at me and asked me if that’s what I’m talking about. I said yes. He said ok do it again. I couldn’t do it again because at that point the car warmed up enough. He said it was too little to figure out and gave up. Said come back when it’s cold out. 

They cleaned my EGR valve, the issue persisted although less pronounced. They refused to clean the EGR cooler saying that it would take too much time for them to cover it under warranty. But I was welcome to pay $500+ for them to do it myself. Even though I’ve documented this issue since 15,000 miles.

All this time later at 46000 miles the issue still persists, is becoming more pronounced again, and no dealership is willing to do any true investigative work unless I pay for all of it out of pocket.

Not one dealership has been helpful. Senior customer care is a joke. I’ve been lied to by 2 dealerships, 1 dealership left a bunch of bolts loose after replacing my nox sensor (why they had to take my heatshield off I don’t know). I give up. I live with it. It’s not worth my time or trouble. I have zero faith in GM and once I get rid of this car, I’ll walk away and never buy another GM product ever again.


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