# Shudder at low speed



## Bohdan (Apr 28, 2012)

Sounds like a loose engine rubber mounting arm. Also may be time to look for another dealer who can better help your problem seems the one you have now does not really care.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

What RPMs and speeds are involved?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

It's normal for the Cruze to shudder in reverse, especially up an incline. You just about stall it trying to back up an incline because reverse is such a different ratio from first gear. That's just the small engine fighting a stall. It's balanced pretty well above 1150 RPM, but below that, with any power being demanded of it, it is rough when lugged.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

From idle to about 1200RPM. That's not to say it goes away at 1200 just that I have not had occasion to back up a hill faster than that.

Generally I have the clutch fully engaged at pretty low RPM. This car is generally so easy to drive it really does not complain about leaving the clutch out with no gas at all at idle on level ground. 

On my drive way, I would normally add just enough gas to climb the grade. I have tried backing up faster and it still does it up to around 1200rpm. This is about all the faster I can get going in reverse in about 25 feet. Even at this it represents pretty agressive clutch slipping.

The car goes from silky smooth during normal forward operation to sounding like it's about to throw a rod backing up the drive. 

As well as I can tell, I can do about the same exact thing going forward but I can't get it to vibrate nearly as bad. Yes a similar vibration is present but not nearly as strong. Starting up a steep grade in first is no problem at all. I can even drag engine down to stall with the brakes without the strong vibration.

The first service tech did claim that he visually checked clearances and that things were tight. What was not done was to try to induce the problem with someone outside the car to listen and watch. I plan to do some of this myself when the rain stops and I have some time.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> It's normal for the Cruze to shudder in reverse, especially up an incline. You just about stall it trying to back up an incline because reverse is such a different ratio from first gear. That's just the small engine fighting a stall. It's balanced pretty well above 1150 RPM, but below that, with any power being demanded of it, it is rough when lugged.


That sounds like the issue. I think the main problem is that the car goes from normally being silky smooth to sounding like it's about to throw a rod with little apparent provocation!

The problem does seem to be something resonating more than just the typical low speed vibration. Then again the engine vibration may be just enough worse to really get something resonating. At times it sounds like every trim panel in the car is vibrating. I'll have to take a video and upload it someplace. That would give a better idea of the magnitude of the issue.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Ltron - anything below 1200 RPMs with a load is lugging this engine and it will vibrate. You may just have a car that vibrates more.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

Well I should add that this is mainly a problem when I need to back up from a stand still on an incline. If I get a little bit of a run at it, just a few mph is fast enough that there is no issue. 

In first however I can pull the RPM way below idle without the same sort of noise.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

obermd said:


> Ltron - anything below 1200 RPMs with a load is lugging this engine and it will vibrate. You may just have a car that vibrates more.


Yeah It's too bad it's an MT. Makes it hard to hunt around for some specific vibrating thing under load. I keep thinking it's some piece of plumbing or something that is hitting the body and transfering normal engine vibration.

Thanks for the thoughts


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

Bohdan said:


> Sounds like a loose engine rubber mounting arm. Also may be time to look for another dealer who can better help your problem seems the one you have now does not really care.



Yeah or maybe figure out how to encourage them to care more. 

On the other hand, the issue may be more than the typical part replacement. 

I also don't like the idea of someone intentially slipping the clutch trying to make it vibrate. One of the service guys succeeded in making it vibrate continuously by slipping the clutch in just the right way. I had to ask him to stop! Heaven only knows how many miles he took off the life!

I'm always concerned about my car surviving the service department of any dealer. LOL


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Give it a bit of time. The clutch is very touchy at first and very grabby and smells like it is burning if slipped a smidgen too much. 

About 1500 miles in, I hot rodded with it a bit and the clutch feel drastically improved. Still a bit difficult in reverse though - my friend lives down a really steep driveway and the car feels like it's going to stall backing up it sometimes. 


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## Chevy Customer Care (Oct 29, 2011)

Ltron said:


> I have had my 2013 Cruze ECO with a manual transmission for several weeks and I love it generally. There is one issue that is bugging the heck out of me.
> 
> At low speed, sometimes there is a very strong vibration that resonates through the whole car. The vibration seems like something I would expect from the engine vibration being transmitted to the body by something that defeats the built in isolation. The problem is much worse in reverse than in first gear.
> 
> ...




Ltron,
I would like to apologize for the issues that you are experiencing. I would be happy to look into this for you. If you would like me to, please send me a PM with your name, address, phone number, VIN, current mileage and the name of your dealer. Either way, please keep me posted. 
Thank you,
Stacy Chevrolet Customer Service


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

Chevy Customer Service said:


> Ltron,
> I would like to apologize for the issues that you are experiencing. I would be happy to look into this for you. If you would like me to, please send me a PM with your name, address, phone number, VIN, current mileage and the name of your dealer. Either way, please keep me posted.
> Thank you,
> Stacy Chevrolet Customer Service


Hi Stacy,

Thanks so much. 

Larry


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I experienced this for the first time today while backing into my driveway. The car really didn't like pushing itself uphill with the front drive wheels climbing over the curb at the same time. I'm not too concerned about it however as I know the transmission was really having to work hard to get the car moving.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Little engine with no torque, you need to get more RPM before you shake your transmission or pilot bearing to pieces. Loading it up like that is VERY bad for it and can cause damage to the trans and worst case the engine too. Basically what you are feeling is the guts of the transmission flexing which is very tough on the bearings, can bend the input shaft, damage the pilot bearing and possible even the crankshaft. You may have to ride the clutch a little bit but it won't hurt it. Just don't bake it at 4000+RPM and you will be fine. I don't even try to get the car moving on a flat surface below 1500 RPM, going uphill I'd shoot for 2K


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

This particular maneuver I was doing gives all front wheel drive cars fits. It even gave my Montana with it's Versatrak AWD problems. Normally I take the driveway in reverse at some speed to avoid just this problem. Oh yes, there was a bunch of clutch slipping to keep the tranny in the car. Needless to say I won't be doing this anymore as I agree with you that it's not good for the car.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Keep in mind reverse is a similar ratio to 2nd gear. 


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

If I recall when my 2011 ECO 6M was brand new, reverse backing up my driveway, the car would shudder. I attribute that to a brand new clutch and me being used to a very torquey 2004 GTO. Give it time to fully break in. It is much better now and I pretty much always drive forward out of my driveway.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

In my case, the shudder happens even with the clutch fully engaged. It's not the clutch or even the amount of vibration so much as a resonance or something actually hitting underneath. 

I can make it happen if I load the drive train with the parking brake on level ground. I can get it to "resonate" in reverse but not in any forward gear. 

Chevrolet recomends driving this car in the range of 1000 to 1500 RPM. The up shift light comes on at 1600. Even at 1000 RPM in 6th it does not do anything like what it does in reverse.



blk88verde said:


> If I recall when my 2011 ECO 6M was brand new, reverse backing up my driveway, the car would shudder. I attribute that to a brand new clutch and me being used to a very torquey 2004 GTO. Give it time to fully break in. It is much better now and I pretty much always drive forward out of my driveway.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

Well that's only seems true of the automatic. 4.584 1st VS 2.94 R. What I see on line is the 2013 ECO MT is 4.273 1st VS 3.818 R. Second is 2.158. 



jblackburn said:


> Keep in mind reverse is a similar ratio to 2nd gear.
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## DrVette (Dec 6, 2011)

edit to say it reminds me of a clutch wih oil contamination.

Mine has a similar shudder in reverse only.

Uphill IS worse. 
Acts like the gear ratio is too.tall,.almost stalling the engine.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

^^^ What he said ^^^


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I had this happen a few times right after I bought my car, within the first 5-10k miles. I chalked it up to the clutch breaking in. It hasn't happened in a very long time.


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## Loganh0728 (Jan 28, 2013)

Hello Ltron I represent Bill Stasek Chevrolet and I would like to help you. If you could pm me your full name and VIN number of your vehicle I could start narrowing down the problem and find a solution for you. I understand the frustrations of owning a new car and not even a month old having problems. Feel free to send me this information so that we can better assist you. Thank You Bill Stasek Chevrolet.


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## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

Loganh0728 said:


> Hello Ltron I represent Bill Stasek Chevrolet and I would like to help you. If you could pm me your full name and VIN number of your vehicle I could start narrowing down the problem and find a solution for you. I understand the frustrations of owning a new car and not even a month old having problems. Feel free to send me this information so that we can better assist you. Thank You Bill Stasek Chevrolet.


This is a new rep haven't seen him before.

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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Ltron;162560
[FONT=Arial said:


> I can make it happen if I load the drive train with the parking brake on level ground. I can get it to "resonate" in reverse but not in any forward gear.
> 
> Chevrolet recomends driving this car in the range of 1000 to 1500 RPM. The up shift light comes on at 1600. Even at 1000 RPM in 6th it does not do anything like what it does in reverse.[/FONT]


First don't load the drivetrain like that, not a good plan. Second that 1000-1500 doesn't take into account you are in reverse, going up a hill, from a standstill. The shift light is set for maximum efficiency but it doesn't know the terrain you are on so it will always be situation dependent. It doesn't matter if the clutch is fully engaged if the engine is trying to stall out you will get that vibration and chugging, the only way to compensate is more RPM and riding the clutch a little bit or completely disengaging the clutch. I would bet after 10,000 miles it has less to do with the clutch "breaking in" (which happens in the first few hundred and really is a non player with the type of clutch in this car anyway) and more to do with people getting used to driving the car and learning the right amount of throttle to apply and how to let the clutch out.


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## DrVette (Dec 6, 2011)

I missed the post where you said it does shudder with the clutch fully engaged.

That hints to a bad engine support.GM really missed the proper reverse ratio. Typically lower than first gear(mt)


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Easy way to check if it is the mounting of the engine is go out, back it up the hill with more RPM and see if the problem goes away. I highly doubt there is anything wrong with the car from the info you have given it is just a matter of adjusting your driving style a tiny bit. I had the exact same problem when I came from a car with stupid amounts of torque to this. Give it a try.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I had this happen a few times right after I bought my car, within the first 5-10k miles. I chalked it up to the clutch breaking in. It hasn't happened in a very long time.


Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, if it were not for the fact that my driveway is up hill I would not have much of a complient. This does happen very infrequently at other times but reverse up the drive masks the sensativity.

I have been playing with this a bit more and it seems to be some sort of an engine resonance. If I let the clutch out slowly at idle with no gas it is nice and smooth until I try to accelerate. The harder I try to accelerate the greater the vibration. 

I was able to watch this with the hood up and someone else driving. The engine starts out nice a smooth if the clutch is released at idle. It turns into a wahsing machine if the gas is pushed.


So the clutch does not seem to be directly invloved at all. Clutch release rate does affect the issue but more in the way this affects torque output and not in the way the clutch actually engages.


It seems to act much more like the torque link is loose. Alternatively I am beginning to wonder if there is some other interaction going on. 

Regards

Larry


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

NBrehm said:


> Easy way to check if it is the mounting of the engine is go out, back it up the hill with more RPM and see if the problem goes away. I highly doubt there is anything wrong with the car from the info you have given it is just a matter of adjusting your driving style a tiny bit. I had the exact same problem when I came from a car with stupid amounts of torque to this. Give it a try.


So far the only thing that "fixes it", other than letting it back up at idle, is large amounts of clutch slipping. Actually I like idle better but it is a little tedious. LOL

BTW, I'm rather OCD about clutch slippage.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Ltron said:


> BTW, I'm rather OCD about clutch slippage.


In that case you will probably end up having to live with it unless you figure something else out. Once it gets into that "resonance" that you are talking about, which I am 99% sure is the engine stalling out, if you just give it more power it will get a lot worse before it gets any better. You HAVE to use the clutch to stop it from happening. That is why the clutch is there. That is what it is designed to do. If you aren't willing to slip it at all you are never going to get a smooth transition when you try to accelerate. If you are that OCD about the clutch then you would have been better off with an auto.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

^Exactly. And I'd rather slip a clutch disc that's replacable in 100-150K miles than stress the mechanicals that should last upwards of 200K.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

I've gotten my Eco to do the same thing in Reverse. Too much power being asked for at too low a RPM. It'll make a shudder for a split second, then jet away. Like others have said, the only "solution" is to slip the clutch in reverse a bit more. 

The reason it doesn't do that in 1st is because 1st is a stump-puller gear. It's meant for getting a fully loaded Cruze going when starting on a very steep hill with a $100k car inches away from your rear bumper. On a flat surface the car can creep at 4 mph with no gas applied once the clutch is let out.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I had this happen a few times right after I bought my car, within the first 5-10k miles. I chalked it up to the clutch breaking in. It hasn't happened in a very long time.


That's an interesting point. I have heard that sometimes they have different engine control parameters set for a break in period.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

sciphi said:


> I've gotten my Eco to do the same thing in Reverse. Too much power being asked for at too low a RPM. It'll make a shudder for a split second, then jet away. Like others have said, the only "solution" is to slip the clutch in reverse a bit more.
> 
> The reason it doesn't do that in 1st is because 1st is a stump-puller gear. It's meant for getting a fully loaded Cruze going when starting on a very steep hill with a $100k car inches away from your rear bumper. On a flat surface the car can creep at 4 mph with no gas applied once the clutch is let out.


Well mine will do that in reverse too as long as you don't touch the accelerator. The gear ratios are almost the same between reverse and first. 

What does seem to be different is the throttle calibration. The throttle is much less sensitive in reverse than forward. On mine you need to push the throttle half way down to get it to 2000 rpm with no load. In neutral or first you just touch the gas to get it revved that high. This makes reverse feel like a much taller ratio than it really is.

Frankly I am beginning to think it's all an ECU calibration issue.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

NBrehm said:


> In that case you will probably end up having to live with it unless you figure something else out. Once it gets into that "resonance" that you are talking about, which I am 99% sure is the engine stalling out, if you just give it more power it will get a lot worse before it gets any better. You HAVE to use the clutch to stop it from happening. That is why the clutch is there. That is what it is designed to do. If you aren't willing to slip it at all you are never going to get a smooth transition when you try to accelerate. If you are that OCD about the clutch then you would have been better off with an auto.


Well I do try to avoid this situation as much as possible. As I said earlier, I don't absolutely need to back out of the drive etc. It's just a lot more convenient.


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## Ltron (Dec 30, 2012)

To bring this to a close, I believe that the problem I have been having is due to the motor mounts. I never realized just how compliant the front center mount is. 

See this link; http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/34-1-4l-turbo/6325-front-rear-trans-mount-poly-inserts-interested-2.html 

It would seem to me that many of the comments about various engine vibrations are due to the engine shaking around due to looseness in the mounts. This is more than likely a tradeoff to make the car quieter and reduce higher frequency vibration. 

This is probably a reasonable tradeoff.


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