# Sticky  The SQ Car Audio Thread V2



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

*Welcome to Version 2 of the SQ Car Audio thread! *​

The last thread got buried and full of information. It's a bit daunting to sort through, so I've created a new one to make it a whole lot easier and to consolidate some of this information. Given the sheer number of questions I get regarding this, I figured I'd create a thread to answer them off the bat. 

My mission here is to make competition-level sound quality feasible and affordable so you don't spend the thousands of dollars going through parts only to come back to this point. Read this thread, and you can build on my experience. 


*Getting Started*
To start, you'll want a good idea of basic audio principles so you know what I'm talking about throughout this thread. For that purpose, I've created four basic Audio 101 "lectures" on my website, which you can find in the link below. Start from the bottom. If you have questions, post them here. Don't even bother thinking about SQ car audio until you've read these articles. 

Audio 101 - The Xtreme Revolution


*Expectations*
I'm sure some of you came here thinking "The sound system in my Cruze sucks, what can I do to make it better? I want some great sound!" I hear that a lot, and I have an inbox full of these types of questions. Before we proceed, there are things I expect of *you*. If you cannot meet these expectations, you shouldn't be here. 



*Cost*. As a starting point, you should expect to spend $1000 if you want a good set of front speakers with MDF baffles, a proper install with door and trunk treatment, good wiring, and a good SQ subwoofer in a custom box. If don't have at least $1000 or don't want to spend that much, come back when you have accepted the cost of this endeavor. This applies to total installs, not to just a single subwoofer. Some of you will probably say, "but I can do it for so much cheaper than that!" Really? With a passive crossover front component set, a single 8" subwoofer, custom box, two amplifiers, sound deadening, and an AA-GM44 harness, you're right around $930, and we haven't begun to talk about wiring. If you can build the box yourself, you can save some money. Otherwise, I build subwoofer boxes and MDF speaker baffles at what most consider to be a very good price.
*Time*. If you want a system installed within a week because you just got your tax return, your bonus, or birthday money and can't contain yourself, don't waste my time. It will take you time to choose the parts that are right for you. It will take you time to learn why they were chosen, and why you shouldn't have bought the ones on the shelf at Best Buy. Since you will most likely be installing this yourself (let's be realistic, most shops do shoddy work by my standards), you will need time for that as well. We have some members on this board who can perform high quality installs should you really not want to pull your own trim panels.
*Effort*. You need to learn at least the basics of audio. If you don't want to put any effort in, don't expect me to help you. I know this doesn't apply to most of you out there, but I'm saying it as a fair warning to anyone who thinks they can have their hand held throughout the entire process. I'm making tools available to you so that you can learn, have true appreciation for what's going on, and put together an excellent system.
*Patience*. This ties in the last two points, but it deserves its own point. If you order a box and baffles from me, expect to wait a while as I've never yet had a day where I didn't have a box in progress. If it takes me 2 months to get everything done, chalk that up as part of the cost of getting a competition-ready custom made subwoofer box built for cheap. If you find yourself not understanding how something works or how to do something on your car, don't get frustrated. Ask questions, and wait for an answer. Keep in mind that we all have lives outside this forum.



In my next post, we'll move straight to system recommendations.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I figured I'd create a post to keep the updated tunes available for anyone who wants to run a high-end install with a miniDSP. Yes, this is hours upon hours of tuning for free. All you need to do is buy the parts, flash the tune, and win competitions. It's really that easy. Feel free to use this thread to write reviews of these tunes. 

High Value: Silver Flute/Vifa
Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" 4 Ohm
Vifa BC25SC06-04

Mid Level: Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge
Dayton Audio RS180-4 7" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm
Seas Prestige 27TFFN/G


Crossover: miniDSP
miniDSP 2x4 | miniDSP
miniDC Isolator | miniDSP
Audio plug-ins summary table | miniDSP (2 way advanced)

Tunes are attached for the combinations above.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I wrote a few articles recently for someone else on system design that I'll include here to help make sense of why I chose these components. 

We'll split this up into two parts; bass and front stage. I can go into great length regarding subwoofers, so we'll just start with the front stage first. 

*Cookie cutter "component sets"* all fail. Every single one of them is a complete and utter acoustic failure. Every component set that comes in a 2-way or 3-way system with a passive crossover box intended to be glued, mounted, or glassed into place or some pods in your car and run off of an amplifier are complete garbage in that alignment, no matter if they're $100 or $1000. The reasons are the following:

1.  Every car is different. There is no "one size fits all" out of the box component set that will sound good in every car. 
2. Passive crossovers suck. Having designed them from scratch with simulation software and precise measurements in home theater, I can say they are great in a home environment when designed well, but junk in a car environment. 
3. A speaker will sound entirely different on one side of the car as it will on the other side, relative to the driver's listening position. A component set with a passive crossover cannot compensate for that. 

You can buy a 31-band graphic equalizer and your tuning efforts will frustrate you to no end because all you'll be able to do is tune the sum of the entire system. You will be mislead by the misunderstanding of the situation. You will think "but I have the same drivers on the left and right side, so why can't I just tune them all together?" Like I said, your midbass door speakers will sound different on the driver side compared to the passenger side relative to the listening position, as will your tweeters. 

In order to have a proper sounding system, you need to be able to tune each individual driver independently. Your goal is to get a flat frequency response, so that when you play music, it will sound as close to the original recording as possible. Using a measurement microphone and an RTA (real-time analyzer) program such as SynRTA, you will make changes to correct the anomalies of the specific vehicle you're in. To illustrate what this would look like, here's the parametric EQ response I needed to tune in my Cruze for the tweeters. 

Driver's side tweeter:









Passenger's side tweeter:









You'll notice that in order to get a flat frequency response, I had to tune both of them differently. They each had their own particular anomalies. Here's what the tweeter pillars look like:










There's an identical one on the other side of the car that I didn't take a picture of, but you'll see that they basically fire out toward the other side of the car, not diagonally or toward any particular listener. 

I pointed out a few particular areas of interest with arrows so you can see some of the differences. Keep in mind here that every 3db change represents a doubling or halving in output, so the effects are really quite significant. The way that the pillar, windshield, dash, and window reflect the tweeter's sound on the passenger side will cause it to sound entirely different from the driver side, and this needs to be measured from the driver's listening positioned and tuned accordingly. This same behavior also applies to the door speakers. 

To add to all this, even a 31-band equalizer is horribly unsuitable for this kind of anomaly correction. You need parametric equalizer bands, you need to be able to tune each driver individually with them, and you need lots of them if you want excellent results. Sounds expensive, right? If your head is stuck in car audio brands, this kind of equipment will cost you several hundred if not over $1-2k. Keep reading...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Moving on, we have the issue of time alignment that needs to be addressed. This picture from crutchfield outlines the issue very clearly. 










Ignore the subwoofers in the rear for the time being and pay attention to the driver position relative to the front tweeters and front door speakers. In order for sound to be uniform, all speakers have to be equidistant from the driver's ears. In a car, they simply are not. Depending on the exact design of the speakers, they will all be different distances from you. This is something that a component set cannot accomodate for you, but is extremely important. 

In my Cruze, here are the speakers and their distance to my ears, from farthest to closest:
Passenger midbass
Passenger tweeter
Driver midbass
Driver tweeter

What we have, in effect, speakers that, with a component set, would all play sounds at the exact same time. However, the sounds will reach your ears at different times due to different distances to your ears. This delay causes music to sound blurred and unnatural, and makes it even more difficult to tune. Since we cannot speed up how quickly the speakers further away from us produce sound, we need to delay those closer to us so that they wait for the farther away speakers to produce sound. 

Let me tie this all in with some real numbers. 

Because my tweeter is the closest driver to me, it needs the largest delay to "sound" as far away as the passenger midbass. In order to simulate an additional distance, I need to measure the distance from my ears to each individual speaker, then adjust the time delay to simulate that distance. Here are the distances that need compensation for my Cruze:

Driver Tweeter: Delay by 0.427 meters; 1.24 milliseconds
Driver Midbass: Delay by 0.334 meters; 1.00 millisecond
Passenger Tweeter: Delay by 0.124 meters; 0.36 milliseconds
Passeinger Midbass: Farthest away; no delay needed. 

When you have all of those dialed in, the music will sound like it's coming from directly in front of you. You will not hear individual speakers plying music anymore; you will just hear a single music source that sounds like it's coming from the dash immediately in front of you. You are probably thinking to yourself; "Seriously? One millisecond will make a big difference?" The answer is yes. It makes a massive difference. Once you have these settings dialed in, I can adjust those delays by 0.02 milliseconds at a time, and a mere .1 millisecond will cause the source of the music to shift from immediately in front of you, to a physical 1 foot to the right. I can effectively "pan" the sound source left and right across the dash by adjusting the time alignment of specific drivers. 

Again, this is not something you can do with a cookie cutter component set. It requires you to make adjustments to your specific car, which will vary from my car or that of a friend. Understanding the concepts allows you to turn tuning into a simple matter of learning how to use the specific hardware. 

So, you're still probably thinking...****. This is going to be really expensive, won't it...

Keep reading.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

So far, we talked about frequency response and the importance of tuning drivers individually, and we talked about the importance and purpose for time alignment. In this post, I'll go over crossover points. My article on my site went into reasonable detail regarding what crossovers are and how active and passive crossovers work.

Since we aren't going to be buying a component set with a passive crossover bundled and will instead be buying raw drivers, we need to figure out what our crossover points should be. Since raw drivers rarely list an advised crossover point and slope, how do we figure this out?

Measurements. For this part, we use software called ARTA to measure harmonic distortion. Harmonic distortion affects a significantly large frequency range and will not come up in a frequency response measurement. The most offensive to our ears is 3rd order harmonic distortion. I can help anyone learn how to use this software since there's a small learning curve, but basically, you use a measurement microphone to get the reading you need. We can just skip ahead to the measurements you'll get. What we do is start with a low crossover point and take a measurement.

For the tweeter, we need a high-pass crossover filter, which means we need to let the high-frequencies pass through the filters and let all frequencies below the filter be blocked out. We naturally don't want our tweeters to be playing bass, but we want them to play as low as possible to lift our sound stage above and away from our feet. The purpose of harmonic distortion measurements is to determine just how low we can play them before they start to sound fatigued and strained, and the best way to do that is to measure them.

Here are some measurements I took while tuning a friend's Scion tC. In Red, I outlined the harmonic distortion (gray line). In blue, I outlined a particularly harsh frequency response peak that we either need to tune out with a parametric EQ, or filter out with a crossover. In this particular case, you'll see that peak reducing as we raise the crossover frequency.

We start our measurement at 800Hz. This way, we get a good idea of the big picture and have a starting point. I would advise no lower than 650Hz for dome tweeters. Note the large peaks in harmonic distortion and frequency response.









Going to 1500Hz reduced both peaks, but they're still too high for comfort, and I know better than to think this tweeter can do 1500Hz. Something also seemed to mask the distortion in the first peak at 2500Hz, so we'll just keep going.









Up to 2000Hz now. Our frequency response peak is more manageable, and we are seeing a more accurate picture of harmonic distortion. Our biggest concern at this point is the HD peak at 2800Hz.









Let's go to 2250Hz. Looking better!









At 2350Hz, we see a reduction in both Harmonic Distortion peaks!









At 2500Hz, we don't see much of a consequential change.









At 2750Hz, we see the first HD peak at around 2800Hz being reduced, but only because all output is being reduced now, not because our crossover point is causing harmonic distortion.









At 3000Hz, we see a notable reduction in total Harmonic Distortion, but we've now lost a lot of sound stage due to such a high crossover point. This is what you'd typically find in a component set's passive crossover.









Let's try to tie this together.

From 800Hz on up to 2250Hz, we see harmonic distortion at high levels, with peaks at ~2800Hz and ~4000Hz. As we increase the crossover point, we see those harmonic distortion peaks reducing, even though we are not filtering those specific frequencies! The intention of these charts and this post is to point out that we are getting distortion at 2800Hz and 4000Hz simply due to us forcing the tweeter to play lower than 2000Hz. To put it simply, we are playing the tweeter too low out of its designed range, and that is screwing up the rest of the tweeter's range.

It is typically assumed that if we have a tweeter that can play down to a given frequency such as 2000Hz, that if we cross it down to 1500Hz to have it play 1500-2000Hz, that only that range would be affected. It is very important to realize that in addition to hearing distortion at 1500-2000Hz in this hypothetical scenario, we will also be creating distortion above 2000Hz.

In this particular case, any crossover point above 2350Hz does not affect our harmonic distortion in this way, and every frequency below 2250Hz does create additional harmonic distortion. As a result, for this particular tweeter, I would recommend a crossover point of 2250-2350Hz, but no lower. This allows us to fully utilize the tweeter's capabilities without creating unwanted distortion.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

The above post probably intimidated you a bit, and that's to be expected. It's a lot to take in, and there's a bit of a learning curve to taking those kinds of measurements. The intention here it so point out how a crossover point is chosen. Fortunately, I've already measured some of these tweeters, so I can tell you precisely what crossover point to use for them, which removes a lot of work on your part, and leaves you to take some of the easier measurements on your own. 

Let's tie all of this in. To get a good front sound stage, we need:

1. Frequency response measurements on each individual driver
2. Time alignment adjustments on each individual driver
3. Crossover slopes picked out by precise harmonic distortion measurements

How do we do this? miniDSP.

This little circuit board does all of the above, for $100.
MiniDSP kit | MiniDSP

If you want it in a fancy looking case, you can have that too for an extra $25
MiniDSP 2x4 | MiniDSP

You'll need to buy the miniDC to filter power:
miniDC Isolator | MiniDSP

And you'll need the 2-way advanced plugin:
2way Advanced | MiniDSP

All in all, you're looking at around $150-$175 shipped for the whole setup, allowing you to configure a competition-winning sound stage. No external active crossover with a car audio label can touch this. $1000 Pioneer head units can't touch this. 

Links are provided in the 2nd post. 

The Silver Flutes and Vifa together with the miniDSP will run you under $300 shipped, and you'll need a 4-channel amp to power them (one channel of amplifier per driver).


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Silver Flutes were on backorder for a while, and are now back in stock!


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## jakkaroo (Feb 12, 2011)

You dont know anything xtreme...nothing, you know nothing.I have facts to prove all of this wrong,all of it.Proving you know nothing!Comon you need a new headunit to make this all work.











:bowing::sarcasm::nicetopic:


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

This is what you have come to realize from our conversation !
Understanding All


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> All in all, you're looking at around $150-$175 shipped for the whole setup...


I just checked their site and it seems prices have come down? MiniDSP 2x4 with box is $105 + MiniDC $12 + Plugin $10 = $127. That is pretty cheap and very flexible tuning... wow.


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## tecollins1 (Nov 6, 2011)

Blue Angel said:


> I just checked their site and it seems prices have come down? MiniDSP 2x4 with box is $105 + MiniDC $12 + Plugin $10 = $127. That is pretty cheap and very flexible tuning... wow.


Yeah I looked as well $80 with out cover . Not bad at all


Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## suck squeeze bang blow (Sep 15, 2013)

I have a question for extreme revolution. I have a 2014 cruze with mylink/navi/touch screen. If I was to run your recommended active set up but with a tc sound epic 10 in one of your fiberglass sub boxes instead of the ID sub would it sound better or worse in your opinion? also what amp would you recommend for that set up? Is there a 5 channel you would recommend so I only need one amp so less trunk space would be lost? also what would you run in back seat area just the silver flutes? Thank you for your time.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

suck squeeze bang blow said:


> I have a question for extreme revolution. I have a 2014 cruze with mylink/navi/touch screen. If I was to run your recommended active set up but with a tc sound epic 10 in one of your fiberglass sub boxes instead of the ID sub would it sound better or worse in your opinion? also what amp would you recommend for that set up? Is there a 5 channel you would recommend so I only need one amp so less trunk space would be lost? also what would you run in back seat area just the silver flutes? Thank you for your time.


The TC Sounds Epic 10 would work just fine in the fiberglass box. It would sound similar but not quite as loud as the ID sub would. Frankly I'm not sure if I can continue to recommend the ID subs anymore as the V3 lineup is discontinued now and the V4 lineup looks different. The appearance is the same, but the specs changed and I don't like what they changed to. They are no longer "small box-friendly" subs. 

As for the amp, any CEA certified 5-channel amp would do. Just get something that provides 500W of power at the impedance you want to run for the TC sub. The Epic 10 can be run at 1 or 4 ohms. I'd look for 350-500W RMS. 

I would not run anything in the back seat. Disconnect the factory speakers and just run a front sound stage. Worry about the back only if you have to transport other people on a daily basis. Otherwise, it just screws everything up. 

It all really depends on what your budget is.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Having carefully analyzed and modeled the new V4 Image Dynamics subwoofers, I cannot recommend any of them. Not a single one. Not even the new IDMax15. Qts has nearly doubled across the board as a result of a nearly doubling in suspension stiffness. This is a huge deviation from what the V1, V2, and V3 Image Dynamics subwoofers were all about. 

As a result, my "IDQ Replacement" will be the TC Sounds Epic 10 and Epic 12 subwoofers. I have yet to determine what to recommend in place of the IDMax.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

For the time being, you can still readily find v.3 variations.
I'd continue recommending them until stock starts to dwindle.


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I wrote a few articles recently for someone else on system design that I'll include here to help make sense of why I chose these components.
> 
> We'll split this up into two parts; bass and front stage. I can go into great length regarding subwoofers, so we'll just start with the front stage first.
> 
> ...


Please explain something to me here. I am from the old school days where you replaced the HD Unit with a high end one that has higher voltage and some with burr brown chipsets. The mindsp not only gives you tons of tuning capabilities but also makes the fac HD unit signal better quality, am I correct??


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Gnfanatic said:


> Please explain something to me here. I am from the old school days where you replaced the HD Unit with a high end one that has higher voltage and some with burr brown chipsets. The mindsp not only gives you tons of tuning capabilities but also makes the fac HD unit signal better quality, am I correct??


The factory head unit isn't the greatest thing in the world, but it's certainly not bad. You can get excellent results with the right tuning by using the signal coming out of the head unit. The voltage will depend on your line out converter. The miniDSP allows you to keep your factory head unit and focus on the sound quality and tuning aspect of it. This greatly improves the tuning capabilities and design options. 

The reason why I don't recommend replacing the head unit is that you need to spending in excess of $1500 on the rest of the parts in order for the head unit to do you any good. The value of replacing the head unit is very small, as you will be spending at minimum $200 on a good deck, in addition to another $150+ in factory integration modules, plus a dash kit. At the end of the day, you still won't have the power and tuning capabilities of the miniDSP. Even if you go with a $800-$1000 deck, you won't have that kind of power. That money is better spent elsewhere.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Post #2 updated with two miniDSP combination kits, and uploaded respective tune files as attachments.


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## Rusty Shackleford (Jan 6, 2013)

I think I'm going to do the front active midlevel kit you have in the 2nd post. I have this amp from my old car...would it work with the Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge speakers?


Pioneer GM-5400T (GM5400T) 760W 2-Channel GM Car Amplifier


Also, do the Seas Prestige tweeters fit in the A pillar? I can't tell if you built a different tweeter cover in this picture or what's going on there...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Rusty Shackleford said:


> I think I'm going to do the front active midlevel kit you have in the 2nd post. I have this amp from my old car...would it work with the Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge speakers?
> 
> 
> Pioneer GM-5400T (GM5400T) 760W 2-Channel GM Car Amplifier
> ...


I have that tune because I installed those parts in Smurfenstein's car. The tweeters will fit just fine with some hot glue. That tweeter cover was for my MDT-44 drivers because those have a dome that protrudes past the mounting plane and no cover. You don't need to do that with the Seas Prestige. 

That amp will power the RS-180s just fine. You will need another 2-channel amp for the tweeters but you don't need anything really powerful. You'll never give them over 15W RMS. You need 4 total channels of amplification. 

Sent from mobile.


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## Rusty Shackleford (Jan 6, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I have that tune because I installed those parts in Smurfenstein's car. The tweeters will fit just fine with some hot glue. That tweeter cover was for my MDT-44 drivers because those have a dome that protrudes past the mounting plane and no cover. You don't need to do that with the Seas Prestige.
> 
> That amp will power the RS-180s just fine. You will need another 2-channel amp for the tweeters but you don't need anything really powerful. You'll never give them over 15W RMS. You need 4 total channels of amplification.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


Ah crap. I wasn't aware I'd need to power the tweeters separate from the Daytons. Per your post yesterday in the subwoofer box you recommended this amp for the Peavey 15". I'd hate to have 3 separate amps. 

Boston Acoustics GT-2300 1400 Watts GT Reference Series 2-Channel Amplifier

What would be a good 4 channel amp so I can just have 2 amps in my trunk? (Maybe I'll open a new thread for all of this so I can combine all my questions between the sub and front stage)


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Rusty Shackleford said:


> Ah crap. I wasn't aware I'd need to power the tweeters separate from the Daytons. Per your post yesterday in the subwoofer box you recommended this amp for the Peavey 15". I'd hate to have 3 separate amps.
> 
> Boston Acoustics GT-2300 1400 Watts GT Reference Series 2-Channel Amplifier
> 
> What would be a good 4 channel amp so I can just have 2 amps in my trunk? (Maybe I'll open a new thread for all of this so I can combine all my questions between the sub and front stage)


Go ahead and create a new thread and I'll respond to that one.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> High Value: Silver Flute/Vifa
> The Madisound Speaker Store
> The Madisound Speaker Store
> 
> ...


Forgive me if I missed it somewhere else, but did you upgrade your system with the Dayton/Seas drivers? If so, did you offer your opinions of the upgrade? In your opinion is there a large difference between the two setups?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> Forgive me if I missed it somewhere else, but did you upgrade your system with the Dayton/Seas drivers? If so, did you offer your opinions of the upgrade? In your opinion is there a large difference between the two setups?


I did not upgrade mine. My Morel MDT-44 tweeters are going out soon in favor of CSS LD25X. Those will be an epic improvement. Those tweeters are in world-class harmonic distortion levels. I'm talking ribbon tweeter quality, but with a 1.85mm xmax and the ability to cross LOW. Low as in, 1200-1500Hz. 

The Dayton/Seas combo went into Smurf's car when he drove out to have me set it up. I am VERY happy with that tune and the way it all sounded. The tweeters were phenomenal, and the woofers have a strong midbass and a very clear midrange. For an aluminum cone, I was impressed. I have them in my Statement Monitors in my home theater, but they are used in a 3-way with a Fountek Ribbon and a Titanium/Neodymium Tang Band midrange. I figured since I did his install, I'd post the tune file so others can follow in his footsteps and get the same results he did. The tune file for that combo is pretty much perfect.

The biggest advantage to his setup is a higher output midbass, a phase plug for better off-axis midrange, and a tweeter that can cross 300Hz lower than the Vifa, which raises sound stage a healthy amount.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> My Morel MDT-44 tweeters are going out soon in favor of CSS LD25X.


Hence the "High Value" and "Mid Level" designations, suggesting your move to work on a "High End" setup... those tweeters ain't cheap! Were you able to get the faceplate-free version? Looks like you'll have a little "Canuk" in your ride. 

Are you planning to step up to a fancier midbass as well, or is that a secret for now?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> Hence the "High Value" and "Mid Level" designations, suggesting your move to work on a "High End" setup... those tweeters ain't cheap! Were you able to get the faceplate-free version? Looks like you'll have a little "Canuk" in your ride.
> 
> Are you planning to step up to a fancier midbass as well, or is that a secret for now?


I got the version with the removable faceplate. They should fit nicely in my pods that way. 

I would LOVE to put in a high end mid bass like a ScanSpeak Revelator, an Accuton, or an Usher, or so forth, but we're talking $200+ per driver. The only way I'd do it is if someone gave me the drivers to tune. Otherwise, I will post a special tune for the Silver Flute + CSS combo. I am fairly comfortable with the Silver Flutes as they are on a level 2x their price tag. I can't say enough good things about them. 

I hope to eventually complete a high end designation combo. Maybe I should put a donation link in this thread so people could fund me a pair of Revelators so I could throw that tune up too. 

Sent from mobile.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I would LOVE to put in a high end mid bass like a ScanSpeak Revelator, an Accuton, or an Usher, or so forth, but we're talking $200+ per driver.


So reading between the lines, I'm hearing that you don't consider the Dayton RS180 to be enough of a step up to bother with the upgrade, correct? If you had to start again from scratch would you choose the Daytons or stick with the Flutes?

How much extra room was left over when installing the RS180s? Were they a tight fit?


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## Xaxas (Jun 1, 2013)

Extreme, I don't understand exactly the difference between High Value and Mid Level, I can understand Mid/High Value and Mid/High Level...
Are you saying Silver Flute/Vifa > Dayton/Seas Prestige? Or the other way around? I should be doing an audio upgrade next year based on what I've learned from you, and I'm really looking for the best quality I can get (I still don't have a budget, but hopefully it will be around $1500)


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> So reading between the lines, I'm hearing that you don't consider the Dayton RS180 to be enough of a step up to bother with the upgrade, correct? If you had to start again from scratch would you choose the Daytons or stick with the Flutes?
> 
> How much extra room was left over when installing the RS180s? Were they a tight fit?


I personally prefer paper cones. The RS180s are aluminum cones, while the Silver Flutes are a wool/paper composite. I do think the RS180s are a more accurate and they have a higher excursion, but I prefer the sound of the Silver Flutes. The RS180s are $50 and the Silver Flutes are $30, and I don't think the 67% increase in cost translates to a 67% increase in sound. The RS180 is an excellent driver, but it isn't as amazing of a value as the Silver Flutes. The Silver Flutes should more accurately be $50-$60 drivers, while the RS180s should be $65-$75 drivers. If I were to upgrade the Silver Flutes, it would be for a polypropylene, paper composite, or woven fiber driver in the $100-$150 range (each), like one of these:

Usher 8948A 7" Carbon Fiber/Paper Woofer | 296-603
The Madisound Speaker Store

Between the two, I'd probably stick with the Seas for long-term availability. My ultimate driver would be this one:
The Madisound Speaker Store

Unfortunately, I don't have $420 laying around. If I did, there wouldn't be a single car audio branded install that could touch me. Also, the CSS LD25X appears to be NLA due to some Fs consistency issues so a tune for it wouldn't do anyone any good. 

For the "high performance" level, here's the tweeter I would recommend:

The Madisound Speaker Store



Xaxas said:


> Extreme, I don't understand exactly the difference between High Value and Mid Level, I can understand Mid/High Value and Mid/High Level...
> Are you saying Silver Flute/Vifa > Dayton/Seas Prestige? Or the other way around? I should be doing an audio upgrade next year based on what I've learned from you, and I'm really looking for the best quality I can get (I still don't have a budget, but hopefully it will be around $1500)


The Silver Flute/Vifa combo is $100 total. The Dayton/Seas combo is $190. Based on that, one would think the Silver Flute/Vifa combo is "low level," and the Dayton/Seas combo is "mid level." However, I didn't want to give people the impression that the Silver Flute/Vifa combo is a low end kit, because they blow the daylights out of anything under $400 with a car audio label. Absolutely anything. The Dayton/Seas combo blow away anything under $650 with a car audio label. It is difficult for most people to grasp just how good these drivers are compared to what you get in the car audio world. 

the Silver Flute/Vifa combo is the value king. If you want the best bang for your buck, hands down, you will not find ANYTHING in the car audio or home audio world that will beat those two drivers together. They are unbeatable. The Dayton/Seas combo is a better combo, but it is almost 2x more expensive, and doesn't sound 2x better in my opinion. It does sound better, but not 2x better. As a result, it isn't as high of a _*value*_. 

Unfortunately, I don't have a miniDSP tune for a super high end install ($500 for drivers) yet. Part of that is because I can't afford them, but I'm hoping someday, someone will see the value in these tunes saving them hundreds of dollars over car audio branded alternatives and dozens of hours of tuning with equipment they don't have to order me some of these drivers so I can get them a tune for them.


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## Smurfenstein (Nov 16, 2011)

From what I remember of the tuning, you did all 4 speakers separate from each other, which when all added up created the finished sound stage. Would I be wrong then to say that couldn't you separate the tweeters from the mid ranges and sort of piece tune files together? So for example, when you have the CCS tweeters tuned, couldn't you theoretically take the tune for them, and put it in the place of the tune for the SEAS tweeters, so you have a tune file for a Dayton/CCS combo if someone wanted to do that? I have a very strong feeling you're going to call me an idiot, stating that although they're all tuned separately, they also need to be crossed together, and the CCS tweeters don't cross properly with the Daytons, or would require extra tuning.

I'm just saying... theoretically... could you cut tunes apart, and piece them together for more combinations? Also, lets say one day expensive mid ranges/tweeters showed up on your door stop with money for shipping to my house when you're done making the tuning file? Granted you will receive tuning comp, to cover time required to install new said speakers, tune, then un-install.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Smurfenstein said:


> From what I remember of the tuning, you did all 4 speakers separate from each other, which when all added up created the finished sound stage. Would I be wrong then to say that couldn't you separate the tweeters from the mid ranges and sort of piece tune files together? So for example, when you have the CCS tweeters tuned, couldn't you theoretically take the tune for them, and put it in the place of the tune for the SEAS tweeters, so you have a tune file for a Dayton/CCS combo if someone wanted to do that? I have a very strong feeling you're going to call me an idiot, stating that although they're all tuned separately, they also need to be crossed together, and the CCS tweeters don't cross properly with the Daytons, or would require extra tuning.
> 
> I'm just saying... theoretically... could you cut tunes apart, and piece them together for more combinations? Also, lets say one day expensive mid ranges/tweeters showed up on your door stop with money for shipping to my house when you're done making the tuning file? Granted you will receive tuning comp, to cover time required to install new said speakers, tune, then un-install.


I measured them together, then tuned things by ear as well that spanned both drivers. If you check the minidsp file, I have 6 bands per driver tuned, and an additional 6 bands per channel. It wouldn't be that easy to split them up as a result of that, but you could probably open both tune files to figure out what applies to what and make your own file out of it. 

It isn't practical or feasible to install and uninstall drivers just for the purpose of tuning. Mounting drivers into the pillars is one issue, and getting door baffles re-drilled for any change in screw pattern is the other issue. 

Part of the tuning is or course the crossover point and slope. What may work well as a crossover point and slope with one driver may not with another. 

Sent from mobile.


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## PaulRoncelli (Nov 17, 2013)

**** thats a lot of information. i dont think i am mentally capable of grasping all of that or if what i just read in any way applies to me. when i get some spare time this will come in for some nice reading material lol thanks


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

I really, really want to do this when I get a Cruze in the spring. The Silver Flute/Vifa combo seems good to me, but for some reason I feel wary about going with drivers so inexpensive. Can these really sound awesome? I know most of the speaker's sound comes from installation (which I will be doing deadening), I just feel like it can't POSSIBLY be this easy. I've always been told more expensive is obviously better. This is especially because the Vifa tweeters combined don't even cost $35.

That being said, I have learned a ton from reading the old SQ thread and applied some of it to my current car stereo setup. I must say it's making me a believer, I just feel that it can't be this easy.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> I really, really want to do this when I get a Cruze in the spring. The Silver Flute/Vifa combo seems good to me, but for some reason I feel wary about going with drivers so inexpensive. Can these really sound awesome? I know most of the speaker's sound comes from installation (which I will be doing deadening), I just feel like it can't POSSIBLY be this easy. I've always been told more expensive is obviously better. This is especially because the Vifa tweeters combined don't even cost $35.
> 
> That being said, I have learned a ton from reading the old SQ thread and applied some of it to my current car stereo setup. I must say it's making me a believer, I just feel that it can't be this easy.


These are raw drivers, not drivers that have a ton of marketing money dumped into them, like HAT and JL Audio. You will spend 5x the money to get the same quality in the car audio world. When you deal with raw drivers, you have to know what you're looking at, because there is no marketing BS to tell you otherwise. If you go into the car audio branded parts, how do you know what speakers to buy? Reviews based on inexperienced installers or people who follow the "throw more parts at it" mantra of car audio? Marketing hype? You were told to buy more expensive parts because those making the recommendations had no clue what the speakers would sound like, and were hoping that the more expensive parts would sound better. 

I go by frequency response measurements, harmonic distortion measurements, T/S parameters, and the raw capabilities of a driver. In that regard, I know the capabilities of these drivers. It's inexpensive because the miniDSP is a massive bargain. The 4-way version of the miniDSP is $300, and it does the same thing (actually it does FAR better) than the $800 Audison Bit One. That is; if you wanted only a car audio label. 

When you work with raw data and know how to interpret it (which I do as I design, voice, and build home theater speakers), you can get FAR more for FAR less money. I have heard home theater speakers that use drivers that there exist no equal for in the car audio world. Of course, car audio companies know this, which is why they don't publish harmonic distortion measurements and rarely publish frequency response charts. Those that do provide FR charts smooth and fudge the numbers to make their products look better because they know people have no clue what they're looking at anyway. When was the last time you were able to find the T/S parameters of a non-subwoofer driver you looked at with a car audio label? 

I will be honest, it's not really that easy, because you have to know what you're looking for and you have to know how to interpret the data. That said, I've done all the hard work and left you with two options to make it VERY easy. I've taken the measurements, tuned the time alignment, and pretty much provided you and everyone else here the tune files (which are a product of over 20 hours of tuning and measuring) to allow you to achieve world-class sound. I wish I could provide more options for drivers, but my budget doesn't allow me to. Perhaps I should set up a donation link for those who use my designs to fund my research for other combinations of drivers. 

Welcome to CruzeTalk. This is how we do things around here.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> These are raw drivers, not drivers that have a ton of marketing money dumped into them, like HAT and JL Audio. You will spend 5x the money to get the same quality in the car audio world. When you deal with raw drivers, you have to know what you're looking at, because there is no marketing BS to tell you otherwise. If you go into the car audio branded parts, how do you know what speakers to buy? Reviews based on inexperienced installers or people who follow the "throw more parts at it" mantra of car audio? Marketing hype? You were told to buy more expensive parts because those making the recommendations had no clue what the speakers would sound like, and were hoping that the more expensive parts would sound better.
> 
> I go by frequency response measurements, harmonic distortion measurements, T/S parameters, and the raw capabilities of a driver. In that regard, I know the capabilities of these drivers. It's inexpensive because the miniDSP is a massive bargain. The 4-way version of the miniDSP is $300, and it does the same thing (actually it does FAR better) than the $800 Audison Bit One. That is; if you wanted only a car audio label.
> 
> ...


At the least, I want to say thank you. It's just difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that the drivers can cost so little and sound so good. From what I've seen on this board, you definitely know what you are talking about. I liked the pictures and step by step you had on how to install the MLV and CCF in the door, too. I've never deadened anything before. It's people like you that make me unafraid to try to tackle a project like this on my own.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> At the least, I want to say thank you. It's just difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that the drivers can cost so little and sound so good. From what I've seen on this board, you definitely know what you are talking about. I liked the pictures and step by step you had on how to install the MLV and CCF in the door, too. I've never deadened anything before. It's people like you that make me unafraid to try to tackle a project like this on my own.


You're welcome. 

I'll challenge you to buy the drivers first. Just do it, and you'll immediately see what I mean. You'll get the tweeters and you'll notice they have neodymium motors (like most compact tweeters) and then you'll see a heatsink. A HEATSINK! For a $17 tweeter! 

Then you'll look at the Silver Flutes. Wool? Who the heck makes cones out of paper and wool fiber?! Well, guys who want to hear every last detail. You'll get the box and you'll wonder why the heck it's so heavy. You'll open the box and you'll think you're looking at subwoofers. You want to know how big the motors on those Silver Flutes are? Massive. Silver Flutes are on the right. 


























You might as well call these 6.5" subwoofers with a motor that big! Show me a single car audio driver with such a huge motor and such a low moving mass. I'll bet you can't find one. Once you buy them and hold them, and realize that on top of all this, they have a cast alloy frame instead of a cheap stamped steel frame, you will make this face and wonder how the heck they can produce this driver for only $30. 










That's the magic of raw drivers. Finding the indisputable best bang for the buck anywhere. Jaw-dropping sound. 

If the car audio world goes from 1-10, I kick it up to 100. I mean seriously...where else have you ever seen someone install *two 18" subs in a compact car* to reproduce the chest-pounding effect you get from standing in the front stage of a rock concert, all while keeping 75% of the available trunk space?










To be fair, Matt Borgardt does it too, but he also used to be the lead designer for Image Dynamics subwoofers. The man taught me a lot of what I know about subwoofers. 

Sounds like you'll have a really fun install ahead of you.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Speaking of which, I saw you mentioned the IB install of those 2 18" subs, and I NEVER found pictures of it. Did you ever get that installed along with the second MiniDSP?

I just can't believe that you put the MiniDSP and DC Isolator under the center console without it mounted. I'd constantly be thinking about it!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> Speaking of which, I saw you mentioned the IB install of those 2 18" subs, and I NEVER found pictures of it. Did you ever get that installed along with the second MiniDSP?
> 
> I just can't believe that you put the MiniDSP and DC Isolator under the center console without it mounted. I'd constantly be thinking about it!


Haha, I updated the above post. You can see the pictures there. To be fair, that's an identical copy of my install that I did in Smurfenstein's car when he came by to visit. I guess he couldn't stand not having two 18s in his car as well, so I set up the exact same subwoofers with the same amp. He's been making jaws drop ever since. 

I didn't get the second miniDSP running yet. Just not enough time. 

To be fair, I did stick a piece of velcro to them and I did wrap them in polyfill sheets so they would be padded and wouldn't move around. I could have done it a bit better, I'll be honest, but you'd never know sitting in the car, and it sounds unbelievable.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Oh and here's the install thread. That's how far I got with my system. I still need to pull the baffle, carpet it, and put the trunk carpet panels back in. 

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/94-cruze-owner-projects/12306-cone-area-king-dual-18s-cruze.html


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

If what you're saying is true, you're about to smash my world apart like the first time I heard old school speakers! Your posts specifically have given me "the bug" again and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. I plan on doing it right this time now that I'm not a 17 year old kid. I'll be doing it your way, hopefully keeping everything hidden and saving the whole trunk.


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## Mattwa (May 24, 2013)

The silver flute woofers are currently out of stock.  I wanted to buy a set too...oh well.

XR, is there any noticeable difference between the Silver flutes and the Dayton Audio (higher priced) raw drivers?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Mattwa said:


> The silver flute woofers are currently out of stock.  I wanted to buy a set too...oh well.
> 
> XR, is there any noticeable difference between the Silver flutes and the Dayton Audio (higher priced) raw drivers?


The Dayton drivers have a bit of a stronger midbass but don't cross as high and aren't as clear in the higher midrange so they need a lower crossover point which means they need to be paired with a good tweeter. They do have a tad more excursion, and the phase plug helps the off-axis response. 

Just wait for the silver flutes to come back in stock. They were out of stock before and they always come back. 

Sent from mobile.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Silver Flutes are back in stock... I'm wondering if I should pick up a pair for spring


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> Silver Flutes are back in stock... I'm wondering if I should pick up a pair for spring


I would. Grab the tweeters while you're at it to save on shipping.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Silver Flutes arrived and boy are they MASSIVE. I see what you mean about the motor structure. I took your advice and spliced the PAC harness into itself to give it power. Where did you end up giving power to the miniDC? I was sort of thinking about splicing into the Pac for that as well.


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## ullmans (Nov 11, 2013)

First of all I would like to say thanks for taking the time to put together all of this great info. It's very helpful to those of us without much experience in the field. I am pretty new to the Cruze family and to the field of car audio as well. If I hadn't stumbled across this thread, I probably would've spent a lot more money, and ended up with a far inferior system than what I think I can achieve now. I currently have a '14 Cruze with the "Premium" 9 speaker Pioneer system, which is really not so good IMO. Based on the reading that I have done so far, I am assuming that I will want to replace all of the speakers, add the miniDSP, amplifiers and a sub. I'm thinking a single 10 or 12 will satisfy my needs. After a lot of reading I have a couple of questions. First of all, I see that you recommend front speakers only, so in my case would you just leave the rears unhooked, or is there a different DSP that you would recommend to run all of them? Second of all, I admit I'm a bit of a newb to car audio, but how does the miniDSP tie into the existing stereo? Does the OEM head unit have an auxiliary output? My last question would be regarding the center channel. Should I leave it stock, unhook it completely, or swap it out also and amplify it as well. I was leaning toward the silver flute / vifa combo that you recommend for the best value. I appreciate any help in advance.


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

Xtreme. Looks like I am going to go this route instead of my dls speakers. Issue is I do not have a 4ch amp. How much power should I be looking for per a channel for the silver flutes and tweeters


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

ullmans said:


> First of all I would like to say thanks for taking the time to put together all of this great info. It's very helpful to those of us without much experience in the field. I am pretty new to the Cruze family and to the field of car audio as well. If I hadn't stumbled across this thread, I probably would've spent a lot more money, and ended up with a far inferior system than what I think I can achieve now. I currently have a '14 Cruze with the "Premium" 9 speaker Pioneer system, which is really not so good IMO. Based on the reading that I have done so far, I am assuming that I will want to replace all of the speakers, add the miniDSP, amplifiers and a sub. I'm thinking a single 10 or 12 will satisfy my needs. After a lot of reading I have a couple of questions. First of all, I see that you recommend front speakers only, so in my case would you just leave the rears unhooked, or is there a different DSP that you would recommend to run all of them? Second of all, I admit I'm a bit of a newb to car audio, but how does the miniDSP tie into the existing stereo? Does the OEM head unit have an auxiliary output? My last question would be regarding the center channel. Should I leave it stock, unhook it completely, or swap it out also and amplify it as well. I was leaning toward the silver flute / vifa combo that you recommend for the best value. I appreciate any help in advance.


MiniDSP ties in using a line out converter off of the front two channels. I use the PAC AA-GM44. Admittedly, the AudioControl LC2i would be a better option but also costs 2.5x as much. 

I left the rear speakers disconnected. The tuning would be impossible with them there and they destroy the sound stage anyway. 

Center channel will be disconnected. I recommend the RS180/Prestige combo if you can afford it.



Gnfanatic said:


> Xtreme. Looks like I am going to go this route instead of my dls speakers. Issue is I do not have a 4ch amp. How much power should I be looking for per a channel for the silver flutes and tweeters


45W per channel will do. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I left the rear speakers disconnected. The tuning would be impossible with them there and they destroy the sound stage anyway.


Not sure if you did this or not (or covered it in one of your previous posts), but if leaving speakers in the car disconnected you should always "short" the speaker out. This will keep it from resonating out of phase with your music at its resonant frequency and creating a null in your response.

Given their location low in the rear doors I doubt it's too much of a concern, but it's good practice. Same goes for un-used speakers in a house where music/HT systems are located.


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## dieselTodd (Mar 28, 2014)

so what do i need if i want to keep the stock head unit have a set of boston pro for the front doors with tweets jl 10w7 sub for trunk and jl500 for sub. crossovers and anything else i may need.


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> MiniDSP ties in using a line out converter off of the front two channels. I use the PAC AA-GM44. Admittedly, the AudioControl LC2i would be a better option but also costs 2.5x as much.
> 
> I left the rear speakers disconnected. The tuning would be impossible with them there and they destroy the sound stage anyway.
> 
> ...


XR. I am going to be ordering the speakers this week and your goods in about 3 weeks from now. I was thinking about having a center channel. Remove the useless storage piece, buy the grill from a chevy dealer and put in a nice center channel with would work with the tweeters and mid's I have chosen. What do you think of this??


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

You don't need a center channel when the 2 way fronts is done correctly. 

Edit: if your not having much passengers in the back disconnect those too. You don't need them playing background music. If you're putting the time in for the front stage Then there wont be a need for anything else then what's in the 2 front doors.


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

Thansk for the reply giant. I thought it was not necessary but figured it would enhance it. The rear doors will be disconnected. I will be using fac location for the tweeters as well for an easier install.


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## dieselTodd (Mar 28, 2014)

any update on my page five post. please help.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Center channels ruin all staging and imaging run away run far away.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

dieselTodd said:


> so what do i need if i want to keep the stock head unit have a set of boston pro for the front doors with tweets jl 10w7 sub for trunk and jl500 for sub. crossovers and anything else i may need.


Amp for your front stage and some form of processor(mini dsp, bit one etc).


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## dieselTodd (Mar 28, 2014)

what to buy, so many to choose from dont want to over spend. I think i have the amp part covered jut need help with the dsp stuff.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Best value Mini Dsp


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

dieselTodd said:


> what to buy, so many to choose from dont want to over spend. I think i have the amp part covered jut need help with the dsp stuff.


Pick from one combo. The tune files are published for both, for the Cruze with the stock head unit. 

Either the Silver Flute/Vifa combo or for a little bit more, the Dayton/Seas combo. Both will destroy anything with a car audio label at 3x their price.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Pick from one combo. The tune files are published for both, for the Cruze with the stock head unit.
> 
> Either the Silver Flute/Vifa combo or for a little bit more, the Dayton/Seas combo. Both will destroy anything with a car audio label at 3x their price.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


In my last car, I spent tons of money trying different combinations of speakers and subs thinking there was a magic combination. There isn't. I followed Xtreme's guide and went with the Silver Flutes and Vifa's: with his tune, this car sounds WAY better than the last one, and overall I spent ~$300 less on speakers. And that's just the speakers.

MAKE SURE to get the miniDSP because that really changed everything. I tried it without any of his tuning and then I set the miniDSP and it's incredible what the difference is.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> In my last car, I spent tons of money trying different combinations of speakers and subs thinking there was a magic combination. There isn't. I followed Xtreme's guide and went with the Silver Flutes and Vifa's: with his tune, this car sounds WAY better than the last one, and overall I spent ~$300 less on speakers. And that's just the speakers.
> 
> MAKE SURE to get the miniDSP because that really changed everything. I tried it without any of his tuning and then I set the miniDSP and it's incredible what the difference is.


Thats the difference between a tuned set up and a duct tape set up so many people do. Tuning is more important than how awesome a driver is, but put both together and you will have a shining star.


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> *Welcome to Version 2 of the SQ Car Audio thread! *​
> 
> The last thread got buried and full of information. It's a bit daunting to sort through, so I've created a new one to make it a whole lot easier and to consolidate some of this information. Given the sheer number of questions I get regarding this, I figured I'd create a thread to answer them off the bat.
> 
> ...


Hey, I just noticed that the Daytons RS180's are 7in. They will fit in our doors without any cutting of the steel or door panel???


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

They will fit just like any other 6.5" driver.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> They will fit just like any other 6.5" driver.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App



Thats awesome, they make my DLS mid's look very whimpy. Andre, I only have a 2 ch Zed Audio amp. I want to buy these mids and tweeters you mentioned and connect them to my DLS crossover's so I dont have to buy another amp. I will be buying the miniDSP as well. Do you approve of this idea??


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi XtremeRevolution,

following on from your advice in the V1 of the SQ thread, I have finally measured the tweeters from my JL Audio ZR650-CSI components. ZR650-CSi - Car Audio - Evolution® - ZR - Component Systems - JL Audio

I have done away with the passive crossover that was supplied with this set and am powering them from a modded MINIDSP 2x8 through JL audio amplifiers.

I wanted to get a better idea of the harmonic distortion of those JL Audio tweeters, based on various x-over frequencies. Using ARTA in impulse measurement mode and then the analysis and distortion tools within ARTA, I obtained the following results:

1000hz 48db


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

1250hz 48db










1500hz 48db










1750hz 48db










2000hz 48db


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

I am looking at crossing that tweeter over to the mids at 2000hz for now. I may look a bit closer at the distortion between 1750 and 2000, to see if I can get a crossover lower than 2000hz, without getting an increase in distortion.

do you think I need to apply any EQ to this tweeter? ATM I am only applying a 48db LR crossover.

Is there anything similar that I can do to test the mids that will help me select the high pass frequency that gives the best sound? I tried to use ARTA on the mids with impulse testing, but found the playback levels to be too low to show any real distortion. I guess that the LF impulse testing does not work that well inside the car because of the longer wavelengths. 

Brad


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Builder Brad said:


> I am looking at crossing that tweeter over to the mids at 2000hz for now. I may look a bit closer at the distortion between 1750 and 2000, to see if I can get a crossover lower than 2000hz, without getting an increase in distortion.
> 
> do you think I need to apply any EQ to this tweeter? ATM I am only applying a 48db LR crossover.
> 
> ...


2000 might be pushing it. Keep in mind you will likely be playing louder than you were for the test. I'd stick to 2100-2200. Definitely no lower than 2000. 

You will absolutely need some EQ. You will need to measure each individual speaker from the driver listening position with a real time analyzer and some white noise so you can tune out reflections and cancellations, and that's only after you have the time alignment set up. You've got hours of more tuning before you're done. You will need a shelf set on both tweeters due to reflections around their location as a start. Expect to need to knock everything below 3000-4000hz by a good 3-5db on both sides.

Better enjoy holding the microphone next to your ear because you'll be doing that a lot if you want a good tune.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

cheers XR.

I have never really applied any eq in this system, save for the x-overs. Time alignment was calculated by measuring the distances from each driver to the listening position and loaded into the MiniDSP. 

I used Truerta with a Tascam usb soundcard and Behringer EMC8000 mic, to check the frequency response and tweak the gain to match the woofer, mid and tweeters.

looks like I will be taking measurements from each driver and applying some EQ!

In your opinion, what is the best way to measure the drivers? I would probably use Truerta with a swept sine wave, unless there are other options to consider. 

cheers

Brad


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Builder Brad said:


> cheers XR.
> 
> I have never really applied any eq in this system, save for the x-overs. Time alignment was calculated by measuring the distances from each driver to the listening position and loaded into the MiniDSP.
> 
> ...


You need a real time analyzer that you can measure in real time with a white noise playing as you're making adjustments or it will take you forever. You can't do sweeps here because those won't accurately tell you where reflections are. I'll see if I can find out what I've been using. It may have been TrueRTA. 

Do not bother with the null at 500Hz and 250Hz. You'll be wasting your time. There will be a lot to adjust from 500h to 1000hz.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## CMillet86 (Apr 17, 2014)

Extreme what are your thoughts on the CSS SDX10 or SDX12 subwoofers? I had at one time a Shiva X2 subwoofer with the XBL2 motor, and it was by far my favorite subwoofer. I sold because I bought a truck and it wouldn't fit anywhere in my truck. I've had a few XBL2 motored subs and they were all amazing.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

CMillet86 said:


> Extreme what are your thoughts on the CSS SDX10 or SDX12 subwoofers? I had at one time a Shiva X2 subwoofer with the XBL2 motor, and it was by far my favorite subwoofer. I sold because I bought a truck and it wouldn't fit anywhere in my truck. I've had a few XBL2 motored subs and they were all amazing.


Just about everything I've seen from CSS is of top notch quality. However, as with most drivers of that league, you have to know how to use them. Even the best drivers on the planet will be put to shame. For example, in my trunk are two 18" Peavey "Black Widow" Low Riders, both 8 ohm wired down to 4 ohms on a GT-2300 that is rated for 1000W at that impedance. They are in a trunk baffle, which means no trunk coloration, very little trunk panel resonance (at least as far as I can hear), much higher sensitivity, and a truly "live" sounding subsonic stage. You could get the best subwoofer that money can buy, stick it in a sealed box, and fire it toward the back of the trunk, and the trunk coloration and subsequent cancellations would ruin it all. 

There's a lot of compromise in car audio sound system design.


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## CMillet86 (Apr 17, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Just about everything I've seen from CSS is of top notch quality. However, as with most drivers of that league, you have to know how to use them. Even the best drivers on the planet will be put to shame. For example, in my trunk are two 18" Peavey "Black Widow" Low Riders, both 8 ohm wired down to 4 ohms on a GT-2300 that is rated for 1000W at that impedance. They are in a trunk baffle, which means no trunk coloration, very little trunk panel resonance (at least as far as I can hear), much higher sensitivity, and a truly "live" sounding subsonic stage. You could get the best subwoofer that money can buy, stick it in a sealed box, and fire it toward the back of the trunk, and the trunk coloration and subsequent cancellations would ruin it all.
> 
> There's a lot of compromise in car audio sound system design.


I'm looking for a subwoofer that would work in one of your fiberglass enclosures. From time to time I have to put the back seat down to haul lightbulbs or other supplies.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

CMillet86 said:


> I'm looking for a subwoofer that would work in one of your fiberglass enclosures. From time to time I have to put the back seat down to haul lightbulbs or other supplies.


the SDX10 would work in that enclosure.


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## jacobw1212 (Apr 18, 2014)

What is a good 4 channel amp to power the Silver Flute/Vifa setup?


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

jacobw1212 said:


> What is a good 4 channel amp to power the Silver Flute/Vifa setup?


I bought 2 Helix amps for my setup, high quality German stuff. If I had the coin I would have bought a TRU.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

all depends what you want to spend. if you want something on the "cheaper" end like myself, you could go with a ppi phantom 900.4 go for around 200$ lots of good reviews for it. higher priced you could go with jl hd 600.4, audison, hertz, helix, mosconi. the lists are endless without a budget. and depending on the space you want to give up for it. with the amount of time andrei has put into the tune file for the setup, basically any 4 channel will work. but my vote is for the 900.4 solid amp and its quite small.


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## jacobw1212 (Apr 18, 2014)

I figured I'd create a post to keep the updated tunes available for anyone who wants to run a high-end install with a miniDSP. Yes, this is hours upon hours of tuning for free. All you need to do is buy the parts, flash the tune, and win competitions. It's really that easy. Feel free to use this thread to write reviews of these tunes. 

High Value: Silver Flute/Vifa
The Madisound Speaker Store
The Madisound Speaker Store

Mid Level: Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge
Dayton Audio RS180-4 7" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm 295-374
The Madisound Speaker Store


Crossover: miniDSP
miniDSP 2x4 | miniDSP
miniDC Isolator | miniDSP
Audio plug-ins summary table | miniDSP (2 way advanced)

Tunes are attached for the combinations above.​







Attached Files









SilverFluteVifaTune.xml (46.5 KB, 94 views)








DaytonSeas.xml (46.5 KB, 32 views)

How exactly do you flash the tune to the DSP?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jacobw1212 said:


> I figured I'd create a post to keep the updated tunes available for anyone who wants to run a high-end install with a miniDSP. Yes, this is hours upon hours of tuning for free. All you need to do is buy the parts, flash the tune, and win competitions. It's really that easy. Feel free to use this thread to write reviews of these tunes.
> 
> High Value: Silver Flute/Vifa
> The Madisound Speaker Store
> ...


You upload the XML file to the mini DSP with a laptop, a USB cable, and the miniDSP software.

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## Uncle Snake (Apr 20, 2011)

I have a 2011 LS. Does the factory stereo have rca outs to plug into the mini dsp or do you have to use speaker level adapters??

BTW, a HUGE thanks to XtremeRevolution for all of the work he's done here!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Uncle Snake said:


> I have a 2011 LS. Does the factory stereo have rca outs to plug into the mini dsp or do you have to use speaker level adapters??
> 
> BTW, a HUGE thanks to XtremeRevolution for all of the work he's done here!


You need a line out converter such as the PAC AA-GM44 to get those RCA outputs. The factory deck does not have them.

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## jacobw1212 (Apr 18, 2014)

What would be a recommended RMS wattage output of an amp for the silver flute setup? I'm not understanding how the different outputs will effect the drivers.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Any 4 channel with 50-75 rms per channel will be adequate. If the budget allows get something more. Just have to watch when setting the gains, tweeters need next to nothing for power to get loud. 

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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Repost..


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## jacobw1212 (Apr 18, 2014)

Okay, I got this Rockford Fosgate Rockford Fosgate R600-4D. Now there are so many knobs on the thing I dont know what the adjust. Anyone have a breakdown on Gain, Punch EQ, Freq. Hz, X-over LP, HP, AP??? What kind of adjustments are these?


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

jacobw1212 said:


> Okay, I got this Rockford Fosgate Rockford Fosgate R600-4D. Now there are so many knobs on the thing I dont know what the adjust. Anyone have a breakdown on Gain, Punch EQ, Freq. Hz, X-over LP, HP, AP??? What kind of adjustments are these?


A little Google goes a long way... start with the manual:

Rockford Fosgate® - RFTECH Support


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

Hi XtremeRevolution,

I have followed your advice regarding time alignment of my Minidsp 2x8 driven system, using HOLM with my EMC8000 microphone and Tascam USB soundcard - interestingly although my set up based on measured driver distances was pretty accurate, I needed to invert the LH side mid range and tweeter to get it spot on!

I have now used REW to measure teh tweeter and mid range responses. I am going to look at the subs separately as I wanted to concentrate on the soundstage first.

here is the response plot of the LHS tweeter and mid:


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

View attachment 86186


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

hopefully that makes sense. I uploaded the LH mid and tweeter plots and the RH mid and tweeter plots. currently The x overs are set at 90hz high pass and 2050 low pass on the mid and 2100 high pass and 18000 low pass on the tweeters.

I think I need to increase the mid low pass to maybe 2200.....and deal with those 3 bumps at 100,300 and 1k on the mids. what do you think?

Brad


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## WarEagle_Cruze (May 15, 2014)

Just dropped the Dayton/Seas combo in my car and it sounds great. I'd like to say thanks to XR and others for all the great info on the various threads relating to this setup!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Builder Brad said:


> hopefully that makes sense. I uploaded the LH mid and tweeter plots and the RH mid and tweeter plots. currently The x overs are set at 90hz high pass and 2050 low pass on the mid and 2100 high pass and 18000 low pass on the tweeters.
> 
> I think I need to increase the mid low pass to maybe 2200.....and deal with those 3 bumps at 100,300 and 1k on the mids. what do you think?
> 
> Brad


Are those real time measurements or gated response? How much did you smooth those charts?

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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Are those real time measurements or gated response? How much did you smooth those charts?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


Hi ExtremeRevolution.

I used the sweep RTA mode in REW from DC to 20k to measure those drivers, then post processed with 1/3 Octave smoothing.

Brad


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Builder Brad said:


> Hi ExtremeRevolution.
> 
> I used the sweep RTA mode in REW from DC to 20k to measure those drivers, then post processed with 1/3 Octave smoothing.
> 
> Brad


Whose drivers are you running and what is your xover slope?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Builder Brad said:


> Hi ExtremeRevolution.
> 
> I used the sweep RTA mode in REW from DC to 20k to measure those drivers, then post processed with 1/3 Octave smoothing.
> 
> Brad


You're wasting your time with in-cab sweeps. You need to be able to measure in-cab anomalies and reflections. You need a real time analyzer with a white noise generator. You won't get an accurate representation until you do so because there are so many odd reflections around the pillars. Try trueRTA as a free option. Tune that as flat as you can. You can raise the resolution a bit to get you better accuracy. It's a bit laggy but it works. 
Be sure you tune in a shelf on both tweeters to account for the horn-like effect created by the pillars below ~3500hz or you'll have a world of listening fatigue. 

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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You're wasting your time with in-cab sweeps. You need to be able to measure in-cab anomalies and reflections. You need a real time analyzer with a white noise generator. You won't get an accurate representation until you do so because there are so many odd reflections around the pillars. Try trueRTA as a free option. Tune that as flat as you can. You can raise the resolution a bit to get you better accuracy. It's a bit laggy but it works.
> Be sure you tune in a shelf on both tweeters to account for the horn-like effect created by the pillars below ~3500hz or you'll have a world of listening fatigue.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


This is how I always tune *↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑**↑*


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Be sure you tune in a shelf on both tweeters to account for the horn-like effect created by the pillars below ~3500hz or you'll have a world of listening fatigue.


Is this what's responsible for the horrible screeching of the stock system? I wasn't sure if it might be a breakup mode of the door woofers, but this would make sense. Some songs that have prominent notes in just the right places are pretty much unlistenable at high volume.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> Is this what's responsible for the horrible screeching of the stock system? I wasn't sure if it might be a breakup mode of the door woofers, but this would make sense. Some songs that have prominent notes in just the right places are pretty much unlistenable at high volume.


Yep. 

In speaker design, we call it baffle diffraction. With software, I can simulate the frequency response of a linear driver on a rectangular plane based on the driver's location on that plane. Any frequency with a wavelength larger than the dimension of that baffle will begin to drop in output. In open space, the end result will be a -6db drop in output in the lower frequencies. The only way to maintain a completely flat frequency response with a perfect driver is to create an infinite baffle. Any frequencies with a wavelength larger than the baffle begin to wrap around the speaker and do not get reflected toward you, but toward other parts of the room. Conversely, when a driver is mounted inside a horn, all frequencies larger than the width of the horn walls are amplified. 

That being said, the situation changes a bit once you start horn loading drivers. Consider what frequencies reflect off of surfaces surrounding their pillar mounts based on the wavelength of those frequencies. 

3000hz for example has a wavelength of 4.5". Since the wavelength originates from the center of the driver, 1/2 of that becomes 2.25", which is awfully close to the distance from the center of the tweeter and the dash. The windshield is even closer, where we find a 4000hz wavelength of 3.4". You will find the most offensive frequencies in this car to be 2500-4000hz, all of which can be traced back with a ruler to horn loaded corners surrounding the tweeters. Since those frequencies are amplified due to environmental anomalies, they need to be tuned down by an order of 3-5db. 

If you remember listening to my car, there was nearly a complete lack of listening fatigue at loud volumes with any music. Nothing causes ear-piercing discomfort because all of these anomalies are accounted for in my tune and the tunes published in the first page. 

Back on topic, do these notes happen to be certain electric guitars, harmonicas, and female voices? If so, that's precisely the range we're referring to. It certainly is of no help that the tweeter has a very basic 1st order crossover slope at 6db/octave. An additional inductor would do a world of good, but would also drastically increase the cost of the system from a production perspective. Copper isn't cheap. 

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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Whose drivers are you running and what is your xover slope?


HI HifiCruzer,


I am using the drivers from my JL Audio ZR650Csi, without the supplied passive x-over, powered with a JL Audio 450/v2. tweeters are mounted up high on the door sails in custom pods. Low frequencies are handled by 3 x Peerless 830500 12" drivers powered by 3 x Jl Audio 500/v2 amps.

Brad


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You're wasting your time with in-cab sweeps. You need to be able to measure in-cab anomalies and reflections. You need a real time analyzer with a white noise generator. You won't get an accurate representation until you do so because there are so many odd reflections around the pillars. Try trueRTA as a free option. Tune that as flat as you can. You can raise the resolution a bit to get you better accuracy. It's a bit laggy but it works.
> Be sure you tune in a shelf on both tweeters to account for the horn-like effect created by the pillars below ~3500hz or you'll have a world of listening fatigue.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


Makes complete sense. I already have a full version of TrueRta, so this would be easy for me to try out. What would the max acceptable db cut or boost would you recommend when working towards a flattish response?

Brad


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Builder Brad said:


> HI HifiCruzer,
> 
> 
> I am using the drivers from my JL Audio ZR650Csi, without the supplied passive x-over, powered with a JL Audio 450/v2. tweeters are mounted up high on the door sails in custom pods. Low frequencies are handled by 3 x Peerless 830500 12" drivers powered by 3 x Jl Audio 500/v2 amps.
> ...


As a jl dealer I am interested to here your take on the zr s once you get them tuned in. send pics.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Builder Brad said:


> Makes complete sense. I already have a full version of TrueRta, so this would be easy for me to try out. What would the max acceptable db cut or boost would you recommend when working towards a flattish response?
> 
> Brad


Be careful boosting much over 10db as you'll need to reduce the gains to keep from clipping. You'll hear it. You can cut as much as you want.

Don't bother trying to tune out the nulls at ~250 and ~500hz. Those are in-cab cancellations that you cannot tune. 

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## tmath11 (Feb 18, 2013)

With the mini dsp and a 4 channel amp will that work/tune/time my 4 door speakers and tweeters? How do I wire the speakers to my amp's channels to make that work? Also I read most people are hooking their PAC adapters up then placing the mini dsp in the front dash area. I already have rcas running to the back via an in line converter. Am I correct in assuming I can just hook the mini up in the trunk at the end of my RCA run? Thanks


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Be careful boosting much over 10db as you'll need to reduce the gains to keep from clipping.


As a general rule (not a hard rule for sure), I've read that many practice a maximum null correction of about 3db for a system that will be played at relatively high power levels (above half the peak power rating of the drivers). The reason being that every 3db added is doubling the amplifier power to the driver. If you're averaging half the peak power input of the driver and tune in an extra 3db you're matching the peak power rating of the driver at that frequency.

A 10db null correction is a tenfold increase in amp power to the driver. At relatively high average power levels you would really be pushing the driver hard at that one frequency, as you said XR, assuming your electronics aren't already clipping.

Since nulls are much less destructive to the listening experience than peaks, the focus should be on eliminating peaks first and filling in nulls second. Cut the peaks as much as you want, but be very careful boosting to fill the nulls.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> As a general rule (not a hard rule for sure), I've read that many practice a maximum null correction of about 3db for a system that will be played at relatively high power levels (above half the peak power rating of the drivers). The reason being that every 3db added is doubling the amplifier power to the driver. If you're averaging half the peak power input of the driver and tune in an extra 3db you're matching the peak power rating of the driver at that frequency.
> 
> A 10db null correction is a tenfold increase in amp power to the driver. At relatively high average power levels you would really be pushing the driver hard at that one frequency, as you said XR, assuming your electronics aren't already clipping.
> 
> Since nulls are much less destructive to the listening experience than peaks, the focus should be on eliminating peaks first and filling in nulls second. Cut the peaks as much as you want, but be very careful boosting to fill the nulls.


The greatest null compensation I have is at the top end from 8000hz and up to compensate for the off-axis FR drop-off. That peaks at around 10db. Keep in mind that high frequencies require rather little power. That is not the case with midbass and bass. 

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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

*TrueRTA measurements*

well, I finally got my finger out and set up TrueRTA with my Behringher EMC8000 measurement MIC. I have not looked at the response of my subs yet. I am only looking at the mids and tweeters. It looks terrible to me, but I know that the car is pretty difficult. Initially the readings looked good, but as they settled down the peaks and troughs really started to show. I was also getting some readings from cars as they passed by and tried to make sure that the measurements I used did not include too much noise from traffic. This is with averages set to 50: I used a pink noise file played on my PC based head unit. I also tried using the pink noise generator built into TrueRTA as a source sound and got similar response graphs. i decided that I would be best to use Pink noise on the actual PC playing the music as I did not plan on using the analogue inputs on the MiniDSP, which was where the TrueRTA signal was being input.

hope this makes sense.

Left mid and tweeter with 1/3 octave smoothing:











Right mid and tweeter with 1/3 octave smoothing


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

as an update, I have uploaded the response plot of the 3 x Peerless 830500 12" aperiodic subs playing as well:


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Remember that shelf I was talking about? The effect is pretty clear. Looks like you have some work to do.

Also give synRTA a try to compare. Be sure you are measuring and tuning each driver individually, NOT as a summed output of both channels.

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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Quick question before I start wiring up stuff. Be the first time using a loc / mini dsp. Previous have always used aftermarket Hu. I'm using the lc2i for the loc. What wires am I tapping into for it? Also would it be possible to keep the lc2i and the mini dsp in the truck? 

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## 2014cruse+ls (Jun 26, 2014)

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/36-a...nking-small-audio-upgrade-my-14-cruse-ls.html

in a nut shell i got new speakers as an early bday present for my old truck a week before i traded it in.
found out stock stereo upgrade has 6x9s in the rear deck.

so my goal is use the 6x9s for added bass they hold 140watts of rms instead of 6.5s in the doors not sure what i will do with those. 
The Madisound Speaker Store for my front speakers

a 4 channel amp to pwr the speakers and the dsp to tune the thing.

prob do the speakers and amp first due to money right now. my car took my play money.

after talking to my audio guy. gonna leave the speakers alone and run a 10" sub with a mono amp, 

i asked him about silver flute, and he hasnt heard of them.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

2014cruse+ls said:


> http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/36-a...nking-small-audio-upgrade-my-14-cruse-ls.html
> 
> in a nut shell i got new speakers as an early bday present for my old truck a week before i traded it in.
> found out stock stereo upgrade has 6x9s in the rear deck.
> ...


Of course he hasn't heard of them: I hadn't heard of them either before XTreme. These are some incredible drivers. Silver Flutes are used in extremely expensive speakers. $995/pair

These speakers are an incredible bargain.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

i know andrei is probably to busy to see a pm before the weekend so can anyone thats used a loc other then the pac tell me what wires i can tap into, and if i can keep the loc and mini dsp in the trunk


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Can you be more specific with "wires I can tap into"


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Well for the signal from the stock head unit to the AC LC2i. I've got the pioneer upgrade so can I just tap into the rear deck 6x9 wires. Last weekend I had the seats out and ran my power wire and speaker wire. I was gonna run the rcas from the front to rear but I figured I'd be able to just keep the lc2i and mini dsp in the trunk due to no room in the dash. 

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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Was thinking of splicing the speaker wires of the front door speakers for the lc2i in the trunk, since the wires from the head unit to the rear to the factory amp. I however need to figure out what the input and output is on the amp as I'd need to splice before the factory amp. Anyone know what harness is what on the factory amp? 

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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

so for anyone that has ran new speaker wire though the front doors is drilling into the molex connector the most used method, went to run the wire this past weekend and noticed it was a connector on the end of the boot not just a pass through hole like i had envisioned. didnt feel like going further at the time.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

giantsfan10 said:


> Was thinking of splicing the speaker wires of the front door speakers for the lc2i in the trunk, since the wires from the head unit to the rear to the factory amp. I however need to figure out what the input and output is on the amp as I'd need to splice before the factory amp. Anyone know what harness is what on the factory amp?


anyone have a answer?.. theres not much to search for on here there is a couple wiring schematics on here but the person that uploaded them didnt use the fullsize image so there pretty useless


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsfan10 said:


> anyone have a answer?.. theres not much to search for on here there is a couple wiring schematics on here but the person that uploaded them didnt use the fullsize image so there pretty useless


I'd create another thread on that. Someone might know. I'll do some research when I get home to see what I can find out.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

I don't think anyone's tapped into the factory system at the amp yet. it's not a huge deal I just figured it'd be easier keeping the mini dsp and lc2i in the trunk with splicing just before the factory amp. Ill splice in from the front if need be and just run some wire to the trunk thus being able to keep everything in the trunk.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

andrei were you able to get some time to see if you could find out anything on the oem amp for me? pm me


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## queencitypr0 (Feb 16, 2011)

These should be a little better quality.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

awesome thanks! the other posting with those is missing 1 of the schematics. ill see if they help


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I tried to make it work but cruze talk wouldnt let me load it right I can email you the wiring for it


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

hifi is it the same 3 as what was just posted? or something different. the ones that were just posted dont have anything for the factory amp so they weren't what i was hoping they would be


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## queencitypr0 (Feb 16, 2011)

giantsfan10 said:


> hifi is it the same 3 as what was just posted? or something different. the ones that were just posted dont have anything for the factory amp so they weren't what i was hoping they would be


Sorry about that. I must have clicked the wrong diagram by accident. I posted the ones you need in a new thread  here.


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## trevor_geiger (Nov 29, 2012)

Andrei I think I'm ready to step up my sound game...text me sir lol.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

trevor_geiger said:


> Andrei I think I'm ready to step up my sound game...text me sir lol.


What do you have now?


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## trevor_geiger (Nov 29, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> What do you have now?


I have two Ct Sounds Meso 12's, and a Ct Sounds1400.1. Now I want to also upgrade my stock speaker system to his recommendations.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

trevor_geiger said:


> I have two Ct Sounds Meso 12's, and a Ct Sounds1400.1. Now I want to also upgrade my stock speaker system to his recommendations.


OK I always forget nobody else knows anything about acoustic engineering lol


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

trevor_geiger said:


> I have two Ct Sounds Meso 12's, and a Ct Sounds1400.1. Now I want to also upgrade my stock speaker system to his recommendations.


Run the RS180/Seas combo from earlier in this thread and find yourself a good SQ 4-channel amp. 



hificruzer226 said:


> OK I always forget nobody else knows anything about acoustic engineering lol


I have that problem a lot too lol.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Its hilarious how people not only missed what you recommend on the first page but are not opened minded to those who have clearly demonstrated above and beyond normal knowledge of audio systems from design to install. You need to make an audio guru badge for us and a couple others.


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## trevor_geiger (Nov 29, 2012)

What do you suggest being a good SQ 4 chan? I've been looking at the MB Quarts and Audison..don't know of many others..


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

trevor_geiger said:


> What do you suggest being a good SQ 4 chan? I've been looking at the MB Quarts and Audison..don't know of many others..


 Are you asking me or xtreme? Sorry if I was a bit of an arse in previous post.


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## trevor_geiger (Nov 29, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Are you asking me or xtreme? Sorry if I was a bit of an arse in previous post.


I'm asking either of you really it doens't matter..I'm all ears for anything and willing to learn whatever anyone has to say.

You are fine doesn't bother me lol. Just a noob to this stuff, and I have been reading up in this post on what to buy but I just wanted a suggestion.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

How much money do you want to spend? What time of music are you listening to and which drivers are you going with?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

One thing others need to understand is all amplifiers have a signature that imprints on the sound. Fast switching can only go so far, different caps, transformers and amp topologies help provide it signature.


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## trevor_geiger (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm going with the midlevel:Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge package that he suggested. I listen to pretty much anything really, I don't have it set on one thing lol. Try to keep it under $200.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

SQ amp under $200...tough focal solid4 or diamond audio d600.4 is a close as you can get imo


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## trevor_geiger (Nov 29, 2012)

Does it really have to be a SQ amp? Or is there a difference between a regular 4-channel amp and an SQ 4-channel?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

sound quality
The amps I listed are only $30-40 over your budget


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

sq amps are determined by the person speaking of them with experience or enough knowledge of the product. There are a couple companies that use the "SQ" term but its no specific amps in the industries kinda like the term "fast car".


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## trevor_geiger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hmm well I'm looking to add a little better more sq to the Cruze but I don't know if it's in my budget right now to do so... :/


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

So save up $40 more bucks and buy those


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

Hmm... without having the time to read through all of this right at the moment... I have some questions...

So, if I just want a Mid bass and tweeter setup in the front, with sub woofer in back, I still only need a 2x4 miniDSP? Don't the front speakers use up all 4 of the outputs? Where would I gain control of the sub woofer output?

What if I wanted to have rear some Mids and tweeters in the back, for when I'm not trying to win a competition and just want my back seat passengers to hear highs that aren't coming all the way from the front, can I use a 2x8 and somehow quickly switch between having the full on high quality front stage, and then back to a more traditional stock audio sort of setup? I mean, I know it'd take more amps and such, but can you quickly re-configure these miniDSP things like that, either with a flip of switch or something similar?

I think I'm going to regret that I stumbled into this audio section... I'm a old man, who's been fiddling with car stereos off and on for 36 years. I was bi-amping my old three way JBLs with adjust able crossovers back in 1979. In 1997 I spent more money then I care to admit trying to get a decent soundstage in a Dodge Dakota club cab( ok, it's nearly impossible to do but you got to try... ). 

I love to fiddle with this kind of stuff, money is a little tight these days, but wow those miniDSP things are looking pretty cool... 

My philosophy on audio goes back to some 1970s commercial for a local stereo shoppe, where they advertized ... " We would rather dazzle your ears, than rattle your piers" ... So miniDSP types of devices all sound like a great thing to me. As opposed to just finding the biggest amp I can power from 12 volts


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iggy said:


> Hmm... without having the time to read through all of this right at the moment... I have some questions...
> 
> So, if I just want a Mid bass and tweeter setup in the front, with sub woofer in back, I still only need a 2x4 miniDSP? Don't the front speakers use up all 4 of the outputs? Where would I gain control of the sub woofer output?
> 
> ...


The subwoofer won't be time aligned, but then again, good luck doing that with the trunk coloration and standing waves you'll have created from placing a box in a box (sub box in trunk). If you want to start time aligning subwoofers, you'll need a trunk baffle. For just the front stage, a 2x4 minidsp will do. The only good a miniDSP will do to a subwoofer is crossover and EQ. Time alignment is just as important as those. 

If you want some mids and highs in the rear, just get a set of component speakers or coaxials in the doors so they would be happy, and set up a way to switch them. You could use a second miniDSP and buy the potentiometer to control the gain. That would probably be the easiest say, so you'd have a volume knob to adjust rear volume. 

Haha, you'll be amazed at what you can do for under $150 with digital crossovers. If you've never worked with a full customizable parametric equalizer, you're in for a treat. Makes a 31-band graphic EQ look like something out of the stone ages. The beauty of this all is that I've already done the work. I've measured the drivers, tuned the time alignment, so all you have to do is hook it all up, flash the tune, and adjust the gains. From there, you can tweak them if you have any preferences to do so.


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

OK, so then the sub output and/or crossover frequency would be controlled by it's AMP? (I think that's what your suggesting)

The 2x4 miniDSP would control Mid/High for both right and left channels.

If I wanted to control some rear Mid/High too, I'd need either another 2x4 miniDSP, or just go with a 2x8 for the whole thing. Either that, or do as you suggest and just put some coaxial speakers with their own separate volume control.

Makes sense I guess... 

My 1997 system in my truck was a Clarion head unit, with a separate Clarion DSP module that is able to adjust time, and phase and Parametric EQ for 6 outputs (I think, it's been a long time since I changed anything related to this ). This Clarion DSP could use either analog inputs, or digital ( optical ), my setup has optical between the head unit and the DSP. Pretty nice deal really and at the time, was darn near the only thing like it. That was the first time I had ever gotten into any of this, and after I got it setup, I basically never touched it again, and that was 15 years ago. The truck it's in, now gets used about 500 miles a year and I don't even think there's power getting to the amps, it's basically a utility truck and I've forgotten all about the fact that it's got a rather expensive car stereo in it.

I fully understand that trying to time align sub frequencies is basically a waste of time and money... I was just trying to make sure I understood the typical setup with one of these miniDSP things. It seems like a 2x4 is more then enough to get started, and if I did want to do more, it seems there's nothing preventing me from adding another.

I may have to gut much of what's in my Dakota and maybe try to possibly re-use the amps in a miniDSP setup for my Cuze. I have two Rockford Amps.. one a 4 channel, the other a 2. I could throw the stock radio back in the truck, still have it and all the speakers.



XtremeRevolution said:


> The subwoofer won't be time aligned, but then again, good luck doing that with the trunk coloration and standing waves you'll have created from placing a box in a box (sub box in trunk). If you want to start time aligning subwoofers, you'll need a trunk baffle. For just the front stage, a 2x4 minidsp will do. The only good a miniDSP will do to a subwoofer is crossover and EQ. Time alignment is just as important as those.
> 
> If you want some mids and highs in the rear, just get a set of component speakers or coaxials in the doors so they would be happy, and set up a way to switch them. You could use a second miniDSP and buy the potentiometer to control the gain. That would probably be the easiest say, so you'd have a volume knob to adjust rear volume.
> 
> Haha, you'll be amazed at what you can do for under $150 with digital crossovers. If you've never worked with a full customizable parametric equalizer, you're in for a treat. Makes a 31-band graphic EQ look like something out of the stone ages. The beauty of this all is that I've already done the work. I've measured the drivers, tuned the time alignment, so all you have to do is hook it all up, flash the tune, and adjust the gains. From there, you can tweak them if you have any preferences to do so.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The subwoofer won't be time aligned...


I have never worked with a MiniDSP so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as you're able to add a time delay to all four channels of the MiniDSP you can in fact time align your subwoofer if it is the farthest driver from your ears in the system (all other drivers end up with a delay to match the sub). In most car systems the sub will be the farthest, but I'm not sure if that remains true in a system like yours where they're mounted on a baffle behind the rear seats.

My experience with time aligning cars went something like this; in a 2.1 system (Front Left and Right channels + Sub), measure the distance between the driver's ears and both the Sub and Front Right channel drivers, manually enter the calculated delay on the FR channel to match the FR and Sub channels. Manually increase the Front Left channel delay until the image comes off the driver's door and stabilizes where you want it (usually somewhere between the steering wheel and dash center). Last step, reduce the amount of delay to both Front channels by a tiny bit, the exact same "time" amount (in milliseconds)for both. This seemed to help pull the bass image forward a little, hiding the rear placement of the sub. Every car will be different, but it seemed to work about the same the few times I did it.

My buddy's truck also required reducing the output of the Front Left channel slightly to sound natural (you sit very close to the FL drivers and very far from the FR), whereas the cars seemed to get away just fine with leaving the output of the FL at the same level as the FR.

BTW Andrei, what ever happened to your MiniDSP sub application? Did you ever get it set up?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iggy said:


> OK, so then the sub output and/or crossover frequency would be controlled by it's AMP? (I think that's what your suggesting)
> 
> The 2x4 miniDSP would control Mid/High for both right and left channels.
> 
> ...


I controlled my subwoofer's crossover by the amplifier. My GT-2300 is able to switch between 2nd or 4th order crossovers slopes at the frequency of my choice. I didn't see a need for the miniDSP for that application. This is the budget-friendly setup, as the gains from having a miniDSP for the front sound stage is phenomenal, while the subwoofer will not be anywhere near as significant of a change. 

With the miniDSP 2x8, you can take care of the processing for front and rear speakers, but I don't believe you have two independent gain controls and you need to hook up a laptop to tune the miniDSP. That's why I suggested using two of them; because you can get the volume knob for the rear ones. Plus, I believe two miniDSP 2x4s is cheaper than one 2x8. 

The miniDSP is a very powerful tool. I guess if you compared it to your Clarion unit, it has the power of six of them, for barely over $100. 

You can use whatever amplifiers you want. When I first set up my system, I was using some coustic power logic amps from 1992. I still have them and they work great. Very basic class a/b amps, but they worked perfectly. 



Blue Angel said:


> I have never worked with a MiniDSP so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as you're able to add a time delay to all four channels of the MiniDSP you can in fact time align your subwoofer if it is the farthest driver from your ears in the system (all other drivers end up with a delay to match the sub). In most car systems the sub will be the farthest, but I'm not sure if that remains true in a system like yours where they're mounted on a baffle behind the rear seats.
> 
> My experience with time aligning cars went something like this; in a 2.1 system (Front Left and Right channels + Sub), measure the distance between the driver's ears and both the Sub and Front Right channel drivers, manually enter the calculated delay on the FR channel to match the FR and Sub channels. Manually increase the Front Left channel delay until the image comes off the driver's door and stabilizes where you want it (usually somewhere between the steering wheel and dash center). Last step, reduce the amount of delay to both Front channels by a tiny bit, the exact same "time" amount (in milliseconds)for both. This seemed to help pull the bass image forward a little, hiding the rear placement of the sub. Every car will be different, but it seemed to work about the same the few times I did it.
> 
> ...


I believe you're right, so really the only benefit would be the EQ adjustment. I will try this at some point as the bass image is a tad toward the rear. Then again, I DO have a second miniDSP sitting around, and no I haven't gotten around to installing it.


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

It's my understanding that it's very hard for a human to perceive the location of sub woofer frequencies, so adjusting time relationship to subs, is of no real value. as I recall, the main thing you need to do with subs is try and reduce or eliminate issues with standing waves, and I think all you can do there is change the phase if/when you have more then one sub, either that or change the size of the room, which is hard to do in a car.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

iggy, you're absolutely right. From what I've read, starting at around 200Hz the lower you go the harder it is to locate the source of the sound, especially when you start considering standing waves and reflections in an enclosed area.

Having said that, where frequencies overlap at crossover points and driver distances are not equal, phase shifts and cancellation/distortion can and do occur. In theory, time aligning the drivers _should_ reduce or eliminate any phase issues caused by the driver distances being unequal. I also feel that aligning the phase of the drivers _can_ clean up the sound, with less resulting distortion of the sound waveforms. It is perhaps this "cleaner" signal that helps to sharpen or focus the bass image? Just guessing. I've read so many people's differing theories and thoughts that I've resorted to coming up with my own somewhat technical opinion and going with it.

All I can say is it _seemed_ to work well, and _seemed_ to be repeatable. Every car and every driver arrangement will react differently, so how much of this applies in general I don't know, just passing along my thoughts. 

If you end up with a MiniDSP be sure to play around with it and let us know what you find out.


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

I may buy one, just to mess around with, but the more I think about it, I'm not sure I want to hassle with doing all the wiring it would take to use it in the Cruze... To some degree the days when I want or need my car stereo to have the best possible soundstage and most accurate/flat audio output across the entire spectrum are gone... Truth be known I listen to NPR news/talk more often while driving a car , than I do listening to music. Not only that, but there are very few pop/alt/rock/country/blues songs that even have any real need for anything resembling a accurate soundstage where a. Now, if you get some of those recordings that were done with all kind of special mics and such, there really are some very big differences you can hear when having everything aligned just right. But 95% of what most of us listen to, just doesn't really matter that much.

XtremeRevolution.... Do these miniDSP devices have a gain control for each individual output? or is the only control for volume/output limited to what you could do with the parametric EQ function?

One thing that was cool about the Clarion thing I have in my truck( which is fully proprietary and only really worked with a few Clarion head units ) is that it had memory presets and such. You could set up the soundstage for the driver, passenger, or some sort of 'wide' in between sort of thing. You could also make small adjustments with sort of a joy stick sort of control, moving the exact point where the best soundstage was focused... So, like if you moved the seat back, or copped a gangster lean, or whatever. They( Clarion ) thought the system out pretty well and was about as user friendly as you could make such a complicated thing... Even so, if I could time travel back to when I bought that system... I'm not sure I'd repeat the purchase. But at the time, I was younger, single, and for the most part , had more money then I needed for a comfortable day to day life.

Yet... well I sort of forgot about all the wires and cables needed to feed the speakers from the amps, the low voltage signal wires from the head to the amps, all that other stuff that's needed to make it all work. So, I am now having second thoughts about trying to re-create my youth and lust for ever better sound.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

iggy said:


> I may buy one, just to mess around with, but the more I think about it, I'm not sure I want to hassle with doing all the wiring it would take to use it in the Cruze... To some degree the days when I want or need my car stereo to have the best possible soundstage and most accurate/flat audio output across the entire spectrum are gone... Truth be known I listen to NPR news/talk more often while driving a car , than I do listening to music. Not only that, but there are very few pop/alt/rock/country/blues songs that even have any real need for anything resembling a accurate soundstage where a. Now, if you get some of those recordings that were done with all kind of special mics and such, there really are some very big differences you can hear when having everything aligned just right. But 95% of what most of us listen to, just doesn't really matter that much.


Well, for news/talk radio I would tend to agree... a world class soundstage probably isn't going to give you goosebumps.

WRT music recording, I find most music is reasonably well recorded from a stereo image/soundstage perspective and is much nicer to listen to with a nicely set-up system. I think recording studios have figured things out to where getting a "decent" recording is no longer a challenge. "High end" recordings are a matter of opinion in most cases, with many choosing to split hairs to the point of impracticality - especially when listening in a moving vehicle is concidered!

My computer audio system is my only real "decent" audio source as of right now, using a nice little TEAC reciever, Energy Mini satelites, and a sub that switches between a Boston Pro 10.5 LF (old-school SQ car audio driver) and an Aura NS8, both in sealed cabinets. When I actually take time to listen to a recording, I'm often impressed by subtle details in the music and how dynamic things can be, not to mention how much better it sounds than FM radio! My Beyer DT770 headphones bring the detail up another notch or three, but headphone listening isn't as satisfying as listening in-room.

IMHO, it's only the dynamics and compression in modern music recordings that are usually disapointing, but that's a discussion for another thread.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iggy said:


> I may buy one, just to mess around with, but the more I think about it, I'm not sure I want to hassle with doing all the wiring it would take to use it in the Cruze... To some degree the days when I want or need my car stereo to have the best possible soundstage and most accurate/flat audio output across the entire spectrum are gone... Truth be known I listen to NPR news/talk more often while driving a car , than I do listening to music. Not only that, but there are very few pop/alt/rock/country/blues songs that even have any real need for anything resembling a accurate soundstage where a. Now, if you get some of those recordings that were done with all kind of special mics and such, there really are some very big differences you can hear when having everything aligned just right. But 95% of what most of us listen to, just doesn't really matter that much.
> 
> XtremeRevolution.... Do these miniDSP devices have a gain control for each individual output? or is the only control for volume/output limited to what you could do with the parametric EQ function?
> 
> ...


I will admit the install is involved. It is fairly straightforward but time consuming as you have to set up all of the wiring for a 4-channel amplifier to power the front doors and tweeters in addition to power wiring through the engine bay. It is certainly a rewarding result, but only if you listen to music. 

As for music, trust me when I say it doesn't matter what you're playing, it makes an enormous difference. It's hard to explain unless you hear it for yourself. Blue Angel heard my car at the Lordstown meet and he can vouch for the results. 

These miniDSP devices do have a gain control for each output, but of course that has to be tuned through the laptop. It has both input gains for the left and right channel and output gains for each of the four channels. 

Since you are in SE Michigan, join us for the Lordstown meet next year. Free tours of the sheet metal stamping/welding and the assembly plants are included, where the Cruze is built, and we'll be spending some time together as a group afterward. I think we had around 90 people last time. You're more than welcome to stick around after the tours are over and have a listen to my car so you can hear the results for yourself. That would give you a better idea of whether or not you want to put the work in.


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

Oh, I don't doubt that it sounds better then it would without the DSP... What I was trying to say, or point out is that most modern music isn't really produced in a way that makes the really highly accurate soundstage as exquisitely noticeable as it is on recordings that were created that actually exploit that kind of quality setup. I've got some test CD's that have all kinds of music and other audio that are designed to show off a really quality audio setup, and listening to that type of thing on a really well done system is amazing... Even listening to cars travel around the Indianapolis Motor speedway sounds cool.  

Most music produced today, does have some left/right imaging and such, but it's not really recorded in a way that truly lets you see in your mind the exact placement of individual musicians and/or their instruments, etc...

Yes, for sure getting the time alignment right and all the crossover points fine tuned, and all that kind of stuff, for sure makes things sound better... I'm not at all saying it doesn't... It's just that for 90% of the people who listen to typical commercial music, they won't hardly even notice unless you really explain it to them and/or show them some before/after comparison of things. TO some degree, you can tell that most of us don't really care, simply by the fact that most of us are perfectly happy with MP3 sound itself.




XtremeRevolution said:


> I will admit the install is involved. It is fairly straightforward but time consuming as you have to set up all of the wiring for a 4-channel amplifier to power the front doors and tweeters in addition to power wiring through the engine bay. It is certainly a rewarding result, but only if you listen to music.
> 
> As for music, trust me when I say it doesn't matter what you're playing, it makes an enormous difference. It's hard to explain unless you hear it for yourself. Blue Angel heard my car at the Lordstown meet and he can vouch for the results.
> 
> ...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iggy said:


> Oh, I don't doubt that it sounds better then it would without the DSP... What I was trying to say, or point out is that most modern music isn't really produced in a way that makes the really highly accurate soundstage as exquisitely noticeable as it is on recordings that were created that actually exploit that kind of quality setup. I've got some test CD's that have all kinds of music and other audio that are designed to show off a really quality audio setup, and listening to that type of thing on a really well done system is amazing... Even listening to cars travel around the Indianapolis Motor speedway sounds cool.
> 
> Most music produced today, does have some left/right imaging and such, but it's not really recorded in a way that truly lets you see in your mind the exact placement of individual musicians and/or their instruments, etc...
> 
> Yes, for sure getting the time alignment right and all the crossover points fine tuned, and all that kind of stuff, for sure makes things sound better... I'm not at all saying it doesn't... It's just that for 90% of the people who listen to typical commercial music, they won't hardly even notice unless you really explain it to them and/or show them some before/after comparison of things. TO some degree, you can tell that most of us don't really care, simply by the fact that most of us are perfectly happy with MP3 sound itself.


Oh, you'll notice it, believe me. I agree the recordings could be better but that doesn't have the effect you think it does here. Any music will make an enormous difference regardless of the listener. I saw jaw after jaw drop when I was demonstrating the system to people at the car meets. Heck, my local DIY speaker group had me come in to showcase my car, and these are guys who can tell you what frequency is off in a set of speakers just by listening to them. 

You'll have to hear it to see what I mean.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

iggy said:


> . It's just that for 90% of the people who listen to typical commercial music, they won't hardly even notice unless you really explain it to them and/or show them some before/after comparison of things. TO some degree, you can tell that most of us don't really care, simply by the fact that most of us are perfectly happy with MP3 sound itself.


As I do systems for a living I am going to have to disagree with your statements, if your happy with the way crappy products sound then why upgrade them in anyway like adding a sub or replacing speakers with any brand?>


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm planning on going with silver flute driver and prestige tweeter and I was looking for amp suggestions. I like the new compact amps available and the one I'm looking at is http://www.amazon.com/Alpine-KTP-44...85&sr=8-1&keywords=alpine+power+pack+ktp-445u. Is this enough power for the drivers?


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm also looking at this amp - http://www.kenwood.com/usa/car/amplifiers/kac-m1804/. 

Ultimately, I'd like to find something like this that can be installed behind my dash.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

giantsnation said:


> Ultimately, I'd like to find something like this that can be installed behind my dash.


If you're up for it and don't mind getting a little creative, there are probably some very cool options with DIY amplifier boards:

https://www.parts-express.com/cat/audio-amplifier-boards-modules/3464

There are also voltage boosting boards that increase voltage output for those amps.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

Good suggestion but not for me. If you guys think 45watts rms is enough for this set up than I'm golden with the Kenwood amp. I just did all the measurements and it'll fit nicely.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> Good suggestion but not for me. If you guys think 45watts rms is enough for this set up than I'm golden with the Kenwood amp. I just did all the measurements and it'll fit nicely.


45W RMS will be just fine for the front sound stage with the efficiency of those drivers. Go for it.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

giantsnation said:


> Good suggestion but not for me. If you guys think 45watts rms is enough for this set up than I'm golden with the Kenwood amp. I just did all the measurements and it'll fit nicely.


I would caution you to choose a cool location. There are lots of places in the dash that get extremely hot when the heater is running, and several places that get hot even with the AC going. I.E. the little cubby in the dash is almost like a little easy bake oven.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Pick from one combo. The tune files are published for both, for the Cruze with the stock head unit.
> 
> Either the Silver Flute/Vifa combo or for a little bit more, the Dayton/Seas combo. Both will destroy anything with a car audio label at 3x their price.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


If I went with a Silver Flute/Seas combo - which tune file should I use? Also, a quick question about the install and I'm sorry if this is dumb but when do I install the tune? Before the DSP is installed in the car or after? I'm just wondering how accessible the DSP will need to be post install.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> If I went with a Silver Flute/Seas combo - which tune file should I use? Also, a quick question about the install and I'm sorry if this is dumb but when do I install the tune? Before the DSP is installed in the car or after? I'm just wondering how accessible the DSP will need to be post install.


Minidsp comes with a USB cable so it will be accessible wherever. 

Load both tunes one after another. Use the woofer settings from the silver flute fine and use the tweeter settings from the rs180 file. You'll see what I mean when you start working with it.


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Does anyone know the exact crossover points and slopes used for the dayton /seas combo? I saw the tweeter was around 2300hz but what about the woofer, and what slope is used? I'm using this combo in a g37 coupe with a JBL MS8 (I bought it before I read this thread) and I'm not sure of what settings to use for them.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

recurvist22 said:


> Does anyone know the exact crossover points and slopes used for the dayton /seas combo? I saw the tweeter was around 2300hz but what about the woofer, and what slope is used? I'm using this combo in a g37 coupe with a JBL MS8 (I bought it before I read this thread) and I'm not sure of what settings to use for them.


The two should be at the same crossover point. Just download the tune file and check it out. Keep in mind though, I'm using a 4th order filter. If your crossover is a 2nd order, you'll probably want to bump that up to 2500hz.


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

By 4th order, I'm guessing that's -24db correct? If so, I'm using that as well. I'll definitely check out the tune file. After using the MS8, I'm disspointed with the lack of control I have with it. I'll probably wind up selling it and getting a miniDSP and perhaps a decent laptop based RTA setup and just suck it up and learn how to use it lol now I just have to find out what a decent rta setup is. Thanks for the help.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

recurvist22 said:


> By 4th order, I'm guessing that's -24db correct? If so, I'm using that as well. I'll definitely check out the tune file. After using the MS8, I'm disspointed with the lack of control I have with it. I'll probably wind up selling it and getting a miniDSP and perhaps a decent laptop based RTA setup and just suck it up and learn how to use it lol now I just have to find out what a decent rta setup is. Thanks for the help.


I just realized I confused myself. 

I am using an 8th order on the miniDSP. If you're using a 4th order at 24db/octave, run 2500hz.


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Ok cool. When I manage to pick up the miniDSP, I can change them back. My plan is to start with the tune that you have on here, then customize it to my car, I'm sure the time alignment will be off, and my in cab frequency response won't be exactly what yours is so ill have to go from there. What channels need to be hooked up to what outputs on the dsp to make your tunes work? also, Is there a recommended rta software and mic combo for use with a laptop? Or is it impossible to do without dropping a ton of money?


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Also, how much power should the woofer get in reference to the tweeters? I'm using a JL Hd900/5 so it's 100w rms to each tweeter and woofer, how do I safely set the gains? Do they just both get set to the same level? Or are the two tweeter channels set lower?


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Ok guys, I may need some help. I got the minidsp installed and the Dayton/Seas tune flashed to it. My problem is that I can hear audible breakup in the speakers. I muted each channel and made sure they all went where they should...1-right mid, 2- right tweet, 3-left mid, 4-left tweet. I noticed the input gain for the input channels were at -2, I lowered them to -20, trying different, steps in between , same problem. I finally raised the input gain to 0 and the problem went mostly away, but it's still there. I also had to raise my amp gains to about half for decent volume. Could this mean my input signal is too low? I'm not using a LOC, my head unit has balanced outs that I just converted to rcas. I'm not sure what to do here and I'd appreciate any input you guys may have.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

recurvist22 said:


> Ok guys, I may need some help. I got the minidsp installed and the Dayton/Seas tune flashed to it. My problem is that I can hear audible breakup in the speakers. I muted each channel and made sure they all went where they should...1-right mid, 2- right tweet, 3-left mid, 4-left tweet. I noticed the input gain for the input channels were at -2, I lowered them to -20, trying different, steps in between , same problem. I finally raised the input gain to 0 and the problem went mostly away, but it's still there. I also had to raise my amp gains to about half for decent volume. Could this mean my input signal is too low? I'm not using a LOC, my head unit has balanced outs that I just converted to rcas. I'm not sure what to do here and I'd appreciate any input you guys may have.


How did you convert balanced outputs to RCAs? Aren't balanced outputs a significantly higher voltage? 

Have you tried just plugging a basic source into the miniDSP like a phone with an RCA to 3.5mm jack and seeing if the head unit isn't the problem?


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Everything I'd read about the Bose system in my car said it sent balanced outputs to the Bose amp, they have a front left - and + and a front right - and + that I spliced a RCA end onto before it hit the Bose amp and I'm using that as my input signal. This is what I used before I went to the minidsp with my jBL MS-8 and before that when I wasn't using a crossover. No, I haven't tried using a basic source, I'll give that a try tomorrow with my IPod. I'll also add that I'm using RCA splitters to split the signal, half into the input of the minidsp, and the other half for the subwoofer input of my amp, which is why I thought the signal might be too low. Not sure what it means, but playing normal music, the input gain meters on the Advanced 2-way plugin are showing just a hair over midway up with the gain set to 0.


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## Dvan5693 (Jul 8, 2014)

So I'm kind of confused how the minidsp connects in with everything? I plan on upgrading my door speakers and tweeters and amplifying them as well. 

Like what would I lose if I just amplified them and upgraded with the silverflute package? The whole minidsp thing just confuses the heck out of me...


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Just an update guys, I put an Audiocontrol Matrix in to slightly boost the signal coming from my head unit, and it fixed my crackling/distorting issue. Not sure exactly what the problem was, But everything sounds great now. Thanks for all of your help.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

recurvist22 said:


> Just an update guys, I put an Audiocontrol Matrix in to slightly boost the signal coming from my head unit, and it fixed my crackling/distorting issue. Not sure exactly what the problem was, But everything sounds great now. Thanks for all of your help.


Awesome. That tune needs a bit of tweaking but you can do that yourself as well. Glad you like it. I wouldn't mind some reviews on it after you get sometime listening to them and breaking everything in.


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Yeah, im thinking its just because its a different car. I love the tune overall, I picked up a Dayton emm6, and a few accessories and I'm using that with Audiotools for Ipad as a RTA. I played some pink noise and even though its a much different car with different locations for speakers (G37 coupe), the results were near perfect. I'd love to hear this setup in the car that you tuned it in because I know it would sound fantastic. I'm really new at tuning so now I'm startng to play with some of the settings in the eq to get the car as close to perfect as I can. I really appreciate all the time you put in to getting this set up and for sharing it. I never would have gone active had I not read this thread.


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Also, Xtreme, any particular reason you went with 90hz instead of 80hz for the LPF on the dayton mids?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

recurvist22 said:


> Also, Xtreme, any particular reason you went with 90hz instead of 80hz for the LPF on the dayton mids?


I wanted a bit more authority in the higher bass region and my subs are capable of playing higher cleanly. I wouldn't be opposed to pushing the door speakers down as far as 75hz if desired.


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Ok, I set mine to 80hz, when you rta a system, do you do each speaker individually or one whole side?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

recurvist22 said:


> Ok, I set mine to 80hz, when you rta a system, do you do each speaker individually or one whole side?


When I tune, each speaker is measured and tuned individually with the microphone at the driver's ear.


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## inf0x (Mar 17, 2015)

Just a quick question, I'm sorta new to all this so I want to make sure I understand how everything works together.

So basically for an upgraded front speaker system using the stock wiring/HU and adding in a sub, is this how it will go together:

(2) Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" Woofer Wool Cone - 4 ohm
(2) Vifa BC25SC06-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
(1) MiniDSP 2x4 (do i need to select any options when ordering this?)
(1) miniDC Isolator (how does this connect to the minidsp?)
(1) 4 Channel amp for the front woofers/tweeters
(1) 2 Channel amp for the subwoofer (plus box and the subwoofer)

TBH this isn't something I'd feel comfortable doing myself so I'm looking to pay a shop to do all this, I can load up the custom tune files on my laptop without a problem though. Is there any shop recommendations for this type of install (car toys etc?). I live in Tacoma, WA but don't mind traveling out of the area for a good deal.


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## recurvist22 (Dec 13, 2012)

Infox, when purchasing the minidsp, select 2vrms input jumper, leave the rest of the options blank..,unless you want a umik microphone or RCA cables, also, the mini dc isolator connects to the minidsp board with 2 wires, a - and +. IMHO, most shops at gonna try to sell you their stuff instead of working with equipment they're not familiar with. Unless you luck up and find a shop whos worked with th minidsp before. This stuff isn't all that hard to do after you've read this thread a few times and some others, perhaps watch a few videos. 

Xtreme...thank you, I did my initial rta tests with a hole side...woofer and tweeter playing, ill redo them with individual drivers.


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

hey XtremeRevolution,

I would like your recommendation for the very best mid range and tweeter combination for door installation, combined with the minidsp and active amplification. I'm not necessarily looking for best value, more ultimate performance options that will improve on what I have been using. 

I am already using the individual drivers from my JL Audio jl audio zr650-csi, actively driven and have been pleased with the results, but am about to sell the car and may leave those drivers with the car, if that creates the opportunity to put something better in the next car. 

next car, just like the old one will need to have the door panels cut out to accommodate the mid range and I would need to build special enclosures for the mid range JL Audio drivers if I keep then anyway, so I can work with drivers up to at least 8 inches.

cheers for your thoughts


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Builder Brad said:


> hey XtremeRevolution,
> 
> I would like your recommendation for the very best mid range and tweeter combination for door installation, combined with the minidsp and active amplification. I'm not necessarily looking for best value, more ultimate performance options that will improve on what I have been using.
> 
> ...


Scanspeak Revelator and Illuminator. End of discussion.


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

That's Great!

Scanspeak have quite a range.lol. are there any combinations of tweeter and woofer/mid in a two way system that have synergy for use in a car?


Brad


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Builder Brad said:


> That's Great!
> 
> Scanspeak have quite a range.lol. are there any combinations of tweeter and woofer/mid in a two way system that have synergy for use in a car?
> 
> ...


Just the Revelator woofer, I think 7", paired with their compact illuminator tweeter. All in all roughly $500 for the set.


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## illroyale (May 25, 2014)

Hey xtreme any advice on a pnp (no added amp) front audio solution?

I have the pioneer upgraded system, deleted the rear 6x9's and am running a 12" sundown sub.

Any advice on door speakers and tweeter combos that I can just drop in to improve my audio I dont't want to purchase another amp or run any more wiring. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

illroyale said:


> Hey xtreme any advice on a pnp (no added amp) front audio solution?
> 
> I have the pioneer upgraded system, deleted the rear 6x9's and am running a 12" sundown sub.
> 
> Any advice on door speakers and tweeter combos that I can just drop in to improve my audio I dont't want to purchase another amp or run any more wiring. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Nope. Any aftermarket speakers will lose efficiency over the factory speakers and you don't have enough power.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

not to bring up an older question I had but in relation to power to the speakers - I was going to go with a mini amp that ran 45x4 rms but I found a good deal on craigslist on a class D 100x4 rms amp. Is 100watts too much for the high value setup?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> not to bring up an older question I had but in relation to power to the speakers - I was going to go with a mini amp that ran 45x4 rms but I found a good deal on craigslist on a class D 100x4 rms amp. Is 100watts too much for the high value setup?


No such thing as too much power. :goodjob:


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I have a the 18wu/4741t-00 and d3004/6020-10 getting ready to go on axis on my dash with a 1/2 cube. I have been so slammed the past 2 months between buying my track day car, searching for a house, huge projects at work and going to China. I didnt even finish xtreme's dual 18 IB in my cruze yet. Sorry for being absent the past 2 months


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Xtreme: what's your take on your tune sounding "flat"? I got a friend that I let drive my car the other day and that was the word he used to describe it. He thought that any liveliness was taken out of it, yet I haven't had that thought. He's been a drummer for years so I'm sure he means the hi-hat isn't front and center and the snare doesn't pop like you're on top of it.

Note: This is the SilverFluteVifaTune with fully deadened doors (down to the MLV and CCF)

Also, I seem to be getting a nasty resonance right at 420 hz. Think this could be related to the deadening job?


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

I knew a drummer a while back... he was half deaf. Not saying your buddy IS deaf, but he could be lacking some high freq sensitivity.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> Xtreme: what's your take on your tune sounding "flat"? I got a friend that I let drive my car the other day and that was the word he used to describe it. He thought that any liveliness was taken out of it, yet I haven't had that thought. He's been a drummer for years so I'm sure he means the hi-hat isn't front and center and the snare doesn't pop like you're on top of it.
> 
> Note: This is the SilverFluteVifaTune with fully deadened doors (down to the MLV and CCF)
> 
> Also, I seem to be getting a nasty resonance right at 420 hz. Think this could be related to the deadening job?


The system is extremely revealing of poor quality recordings. What he's probably referring to is that you can now hear a strong vocal, which is lacking in most systems. Most systems are heavy on bass and heavy on treble but lack any real clarity in the midrange. That's not how it is in real life. 

Consider that the purpose of a speaker is to faithfully reproduce exactly what was heard in the recording room. Anything that alters that is considered distortion. It isn't the speakers or the system that sound "flat," but the music itself. The tune is designed to sound neutral with a slight emphasis on the midbass region. 

Boost the frequency range below 250hz a bit more and you'll pick up some snap in the snare drums. 

There is a lot of weird crap happening at and below 500hz. Chalk it up to the anomalies of the automotive environment. You will find a big dead zone at around 500hz from cancellation, and a 420hz resonance could easily be the plastic panels in the car. Did you get some CLD tiles on the plastic door skins? 

By the way, make sure you have the latest tune uploaded. I may have sent you several tunes a while back that were progressively better. The one I have up there is the best baseline tune I can provide. Past that, you can tweak to your heart's desire. Leave the crossover point and slope between the midwoofer and tweeter intact though as that's based on harmonic distortion testing. Any lower and harmonic distortion will start to rise; any higher and you'll start to lose the sound stage.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> I knew a drummer a while back... he was half deaf. Not saying your buddy IS deaf, but he could be lacking some high freq sensitivity.


This may sound disgusting but I'll share this so people would realize that it can happen even to speaker designers. 

I've had a problem with some music since about October of last year. I remember going to my father's property and spending time in the swimming pool each day. Since then, my left ear has felt odd. You know how when you are on a plane gaining altitude, you can plug your nose with your fingers and blow air pressure, and your ears would stop feeling pressurized? 

Well, if I did that, I'd hear something rubbing in my left ear. Couldn't tell what it was. I thought it was some swimmer's ear so I used a vinegar/alcohol solution to try to dissolve it. Tried that twice, nothing. I wrote it off till one night when I was cleaning out my ears after showering with a cotton swab and a piece of ear wax as large as the tip of a q-tip fell out. All of a sudden I could hear high frequencies too clearly in my left ear. My sound system even sounded way too bright for a few days till my ear adjusted again. 

My experience made me realize what it's like to lose your hearing and re-gain it, although unfortunately, that almost never happens with people. Once your hearing is damaged, it's gone for good. My tune is neutral, and that's how it should be because it faithfully reproduces the recording as accurately as possible within the limitations of the speakers and environment.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The system is extremely revealing of poor quality recordings. What he's probably referring to is that you can now hear a strong vocal, which is lacking in most systems. Most systems are heavy on bass and heavy on treble but lack any real clarity in the midrange. That's not how it is in real life.


This is one thing that sucks about building high performance stereos. The weakest link being your recordings because something you can not control.....for the most part...(get picky about your masters)


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Andrei, I've had EXACTLY the same experience with ear wax. In my late 20's I had gone swimming and something plugged my right ear. I tried to get it out with a qtip, big mistake... I just pushed it in and plugged my ear solid. A doctor had to pull it out and MAN did it hurt! When he was done he said there was more in there but he had caused so much irritation already he didn't want to do any more.

Fast forward three-four years. My left ear got bunged up somehow, I don't remember what happened, but I decided to flush it myself with warm water and a plastic syringe. I couldn't believe the crap that came out! I had also acquired superhuman hearing... I swear I could hear each ridge of my fingerprint impacting each fiber in a paper towel. I did my right ear to match and I was litterally blown away with my newfound high frequency sensitivity. I wouldn't blame someone for not believing me because I didn't believe it myself either.

Now that I'm getting close to 40 I've tried cleaning my ears but I don't seem to have retained that high level of "airiness" in my hearing. Maybe it's age related high freq loss? I don't know, but on a recent visit to the doctor I asked her to check them and she claimed they were absolutely clean, even though my left ear still feels as though there's somethng in it.

Time for a hearing test I think.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The system is extremely revealing of poor quality recordings. What he's probably referring to is that you can now hear a strong vocal, which is lacking in most systems. Most systems are heavy on bass and heavy on treble but lack any real clarity in the midrange. That's not how it is in real life.
> 
> Consider that the purpose of a speaker is to faithfully reproduce exactly what was heard in the recording room. Anything that alters that is considered distortion. It isn't the speakers or the system that sound "flat," but the music itself. The tune is designed to sound neutral with a slight emphasis on the midbass region.
> 
> ...


I used ~8-10 tiles per door between the plastic skin and the door itself. It's possible I never got the clips fully back into the door all the way around but it's still cold enough here where I'll deal with that. Since it's the first new car I've worked on, I didn't have any spare clips at the time so that could be it. It takes A LOT of pressure from me pushing on it to get rid of it so I wouldn't be surprised if that was it.

The baseline is good. I had my friend tune it to how he tuned his this afternoon on the right side and took the difference overall higher or lower between the left/right from your tune to adjust the left side. It's just as you said: certain music sounds more real now but the tune is definitely not neutral. To be fair, a lot of the music I listen to is mid 90's to current and the compression on rock music is ridiculous.

I 100% agree with the points you made and want to add one more: the tune you have on this site does not walk anywhere on the dash at all. Vocals stay put and instruments are located where they should be (live recordings are very telling of this). 

Either way, I will be cleaning out my ears to double check!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> I used ~8-10 tiles per door between the plastic skin and the door itself. It's possible I never got the clips fully back into the door all the way around but it's still cold enough here where I'll deal with that. Since it's the first new car I've worked on, I didn't have any spare clips at the time so that could be it. It takes A LOT of pressure from me pushing on it to get rid of it so I wouldn't be surprised if that was it.
> 
> The baseline is good. I had my friend tune it to how he tuned his this afternoon on the right side and took the difference overall higher or lower between the left/right from your tune to adjust the left side. It's just as you said: certain music sounds more real now but the tune is definitely not neutral. To be fair, a lot of the music I listen to is mid 90's to current and the compression on rock music is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Tuning is a little more difficult than some people realize. It's more than just adjusting the levels on a 31-band EQ till it sounds "right." I spent a lot of time on those tunes getting things right. I would rather tune neutral and deal with poor recordings than artificially try to fix poor recordings at the expense of making good recordings sound unnatural. The time alignment on my tune is spot on for an average height male in the driver's seat.

The problem with letting someone else tune your car is they aren't aware of the nuances. For example, we have a horn-like effect in the sub-3500hz frequency range on the tweeters that needs to be faded out. If you don't get rid of that fade, it gets nasty. Those Vifa tweeters also have a nasty peak at 4k that needs to be tuned down, which is one reason why you can only tune one driver at a time while measuring. If you tune as a sum, you can easily miss those subtle but very fatiguing peaks.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Tuning is a little more difficult than some people realize. It's more than just adjusting the levels on a 31-band EQ till it sounds "right." I spent a lot of time on those tunes getting things right. I would rather tune neutral and deal with poor recordings than artificially try to fix poor recordings at the expense of making good recordings sound unnatural. The time alignment on my tune is spot on for an average height male in the driver's seat.
> 
> The problem with letting someone else tune your car is they aren't aware of the nuances. For example, we have a horn-like effect in the sub-3500hz frequency range on the tweeters that needs to be faded out. If you get rid of that fade, it gets nasty. Those Vifa tweeters also have a nasty peak at 4k that needs to be tuned down, which is one reason why you can only tune one driver at a time while measuring. If you tune as a sum, you can easily miss those subtle but very fatiguing peaks.


Tuning is incredibly difficult. There's no question about it. I figured there was a reason you had it done as such with the low shelf at 3500 and down. The time alignment is fantastic. As long as the sides are approximately eq'd to give the same dB level, it comes out right where it's supposed to.

He spent ~6 hours on it and it's okay, nothing special. In the end, I'm resigned to doing a tune that sounds a little unnatural on music I don't listen to often and having a tune that makes the music I listen to all the time sounds more real. For the money spent on the MiniDSP and the speakers, I can't complain. If it was in a house, I would have splurged a little but I don't consider my car a house on wheels.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> Tuning is incredibly difficult. There's no question about it. I figured there was a reason you had it done as such with the low shelf at 3500 and down. The time alignment is fantastic. As long as the sides are approximately eq'd to give the same dB level, it comes out right where it's supposed to.
> 
> He spent ~6 hours on it and it's okay, nothing special. In the end, I'm resigned to doing a tune that sounds a little unnatural on music I don't listen to often and having a tune that makes the music I listen to all the time sounds more real. For the money spent on the MiniDSP and the speakers, I can't complain. If it was in a house, I would have splurged a little but I don't consider my car a house on wheels.


There's a lot to be said about value. Some $5k boutique speakers use those Silver Flutes as primary drivers. You're using much higher end equipment than you even realize.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> There's a lot to be said about value. Some $5k boutique speakers use those Silver Flutes as primary drivers. You're using much higher end equipment than you even realize.


Actually I did know that. I should have worded it better. It's really about the cabinet, the room, and speaker placement. I'd say the cabinet is meh, the room is awful, and the woofers on the floor ruin it. In a room, I'd guess they are great (never heard them). In a car they are very good. I still can't believe what they're made of.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

Ok Uncle Sam just game through last night so its time to order me some new speakers. I'm really struggling with the tweeters. I know I'm going with the Silver Flutes as the Dayton's will not fit. 

Are the SEAS Prestige really worth an extra $30 each? I'd rather use this $60 toward CLD tiles.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> Ok Uncle Sam just game through last night so its time to order me some new speakers. I'm really struggling with the tweeters. I know I'm going with the Silver Flutes as the Dayton's will not fit.
> 
> Are the SEAS Prestige really worth an extra $30 each? I'd rather use this $60 toward CLD tiles.


The Seas Prestige really are worth the extra $30 over the Vifa tweeters. They're also easier to work with.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

Ok sold - thank you!


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

Although the Silver Flutes and Vifa speakers never made it into my Cruze before I sold it, looks like my GTO is getting a speaker upgrade at some point.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The Seas Prestige really are worth the extra $30 over the Vifa tweeters. They're also easier to work with.



Trust in the Norwegians and those from Denmark.... speakers are all they got! (didnt know the name for people from denmark)...AS WELL AS ZE GERMANS!


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

hificruzer226 said:


> Trust in the Norwegians and those from Denmark.... speakers are all they got! (didnt know the name for people from denmark)...AS WELL AS ZE GERMANS!


Are they the Danish/Danes? I'm not sure myself.


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## Puddintown (Sep 13, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> (didnt know the name for people from denmark)


How about "Danes"?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I think you are right! Danes sounds right to me.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Here is a big junk amp on the cheap to power the black widows "1800 rms @ 4 ohms" for $115 shipped! lol
Boss Phantom PH5000D 5000W Mono Class D Amplifier Car Stereo Amp Bass Remote 079148911219 | eBay


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

I found my issue with the resonances: I made my baffles too large and the door panel does not snap tight right below the speaker... I thought I had it tight but it must have loosened up from having pressure from the baffle going out. Will be fixing this when it gets warm and update everyone. Take it as a lesson: double check the work!


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

One update: door no longer buzzes. Broke a clip on each door right below the woofer. The bracket actually fit.. I was just too hasty the first time. One thing that I found while reading through the SQ Car Audio Threads (not sure if V1 or V2): the crossover frequency has a major cancellation that's fixed by changing the polarity of some of the speakers. In my case, I had to flip the polarity of one woofer. That "lifeless" comment no longer exists. If you're able to Xtreme, I recommend changing the tune file (at least on the SilverFluteVifa) to include one woofer out of phase. I'm not sure if I reversed the polarity of the tweeters at the amp when I installed it last year or not. Major thank you to Xtreme for the gold nugget locked somewhere in these threads.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> One update: door no longer buzzes. Broke a clip on each door right below the woofer. The bracket actually fit.. I was just too hasty the first time. One thing that I found while reading through the SQ Car Audio Threads (not sure if V1 or V2): the crossover frequency has a major cancellation that's fixed by changing the polarity of some of the speakers. In my case, I had to flip the polarity of one woofer. That "lifeless" comment no longer exists. If you're able to Xtreme, I recommend changing the tune file (at least on the SilverFluteVifa) to include one woofer out of phase. I'm not sure if I reversed the polarity of the tweeters at the amp when I installed it last year or not. Major thank you to Xtreme for the gold nugget locked somewhere in these threads.


That was an experiment I made with a previous tune before I time aligned. I don't actually recommend doing that once the system is time aligned. Do you have the latest tune with time alignment set up?

You'll create a whole 'nother world of cancelations doing that and it will destroy your sound stage. You should be hearing all the music from a focal point between the center of the dash and the steering wheel. If you don't, download my latest tune file and make sure the time alignment is set.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> That was an experiment I made with a previous tune before I time aligned. I don't actually recommend doing that once the system is time aligned. Do you have the latest tune with time alignment set up?
> 
> You'll create a whole 'nother world of cancelations doing that and it will destroy your sound stage. You should be hearing all the music from a focal point between the center of the dash and the steering wheel. If you don't, download my latest tune file and make sure the time alignment is set.


I do have the latest tune. The sound stage _seems _centered but I haven't taken a good listen. I'll take a listen before or after work tomorrow.


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## TH3DISTURBED1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Any idea what I should listen for to determine if it's a detriment? At this point, separation is clearly there (I like to use the acoustic live version of Brother by Alice in Chains: 2 vocals next to each other center left and center right). Stage may be slightly to the right of where you mentioned but I don't have a good enough ear to tell.

UPDATE: After doing ~15-20 mins of "critical listening," I can't tell if it's worse or better. I used Audacity a few days back to make a few songs into mono. Most of them seem centered with both settings. Some seem to walk both ways ever so slightly depending on the singer. This seems to be worse the lower octave the vocals are: it could be resonances from panels though so I can't be sure. This will bug me for a while.


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## TheMaterial (Sep 5, 2012)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> Any idea what I should listen for to determine if it's a detriment? At this point, separation is clearly there (I like to use the acoustic live version of Brother by Alice in Chains: 2 vocals next to each other center left and center right). Stage may be slightly to the right of where you mentioned but I don't have a good enough ear to tell.
> 
> UPDATE: After doing ~15-20 mins of "critical listening," I can't tell if it's worse or better. I used Audacity a few days back to make a few songs into mono. Most of them seem centered with both settings. Some seem to walk both ways ever so slightly depending on the singer. This seems to be worse the lower octave the vocals are: it could be resonances from panels though so I can't be sure. This will bug me for a while.


Get some RTA software and a high quality mic and do it that way. You can't properly tune the system by ear, you'll need to view the sound waves and fine tune the what XR posted in his files. What he's done is a great starting point, but if you want perfection for your exact seating position you'll need to tweak his tunes with software.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

Quick update - Madisound Store is fantastic - I got my silver flutes and seas tweeters in 2 days. I've got just about everything I'll need for an install (waiting on CLD tiles) but I wanted to get some opinions on baffles. You know the foam type. Something like Amazon.com: DEI 050330 Boom Mat 6.5" Round Speaker Baffle - Pack of 2: Automotive. Any good? Necessary? I understand they protect the speaker but if that sacrifices sound, I'm not interested.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

giantsnation said:


> Quick update - Madisound Store is fantastic - I got my silver flutes and seas tweeters in 2 days. I've got just about everything I'll need for an install (waiting on CLD tiles) but I wanted to get some opinions on baffles. You know the foam type. Something like Amazon.com: DEI 050330 Boom Mat 6.5" Round Speaker Baffle - Pack of 2: Automotive. Any good? Necessary? I understand they protect the speaker but if that sacrifices sound, I'm not interested.


I recommend fast rings from mobile solutions they are great!


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

TH3DISTURBED1 said:


> Any idea what I should listen for to determine if it's a detriment?


JBL MS-8 rockford 360.3 have set up discs that I use for set up. You should be able to find them pretty cheap if not for free if you call them.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I recommend fast rings from mobile solutions they are great!


:sigh:

Cool solution - thanks for the suggestion


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Minidsp comes with a USB cable so it will be accessible wherever.
> 
> Load both tunes one after another. Use the woofer settings from the silver flute fine and use the tweeter settings from the rs180 file. You'll see what I mean when you start working with it.


Working on loading these files onto the minidsp today but I'm still a little confused on how to separate out the two files. In other words I can see that Output 1 and 3 are the woofers while 2 and 4 are the tweeters. 

I feel dumb asking but can someone help me? :banghead:

While I'm at it, let me ask one more question. So the DC isolator has a REM in and I'm wonder what you're using there. I was thinking of tapping the positive on the cig lighter.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

giantsnation said:


> While I'm at it, let me ask one more question. So the DC isolator has a REM in and I'm wonder what you're using there. I was thinking of tapping the positive on the cig lighter.


I would recommend the green yellow wire on the back of our factory radio its the amp turn on wire. I use that for my cruze even though I dont have the Pioneer system. I think its pin 43


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I would recommend the green yellow wire on the back of our factory radio its the amp turn on wire. I use that for my cruze even though I dont have the Pioneer system. I think its pin 43


I should have mentioned that I got rid of the Cruze about 6 months ago. However, I did just find exactly what I needed for my radio - Volkswagen RCD 510 pin assignments | my-gti.com. So I can probably use pin 11 in my case.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

giantsnation said:


> I should have mentioned that I got rid of the Cruze about 6 months ago. However, I did just find exactly what I needed for my radio - Volkswagen RCD 510 pin assignments | my-gti.com. So I can probably use pin 11 in my case.


uhhhhhhh xtreme's tune will be useless and the t/a tables too.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> uhhhhhhh xtreme's tune will be useless and the t/a tables too.


The tune files will be a good starting point. I'll need to adjust the distance to each speaker but the basic parameters will be the same because his files are specific to these speakers.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

giantsnation said:


> The tune files will be a good starting point. I'll need to adjust the distance to each speaker but the basic parameters will be the same because his files are specific to these speakers.


Not really, there is heavy tuning in our factory head units and they are different on every vehicle so a lot of his tuning was fighting the factory eq. He also tuned against nodes peaks and valleys specific to our cars environment. Your best bet is to start from scratch. Cross over points will be the closest but even those should change a little bit since its enclosure has changed as well (car door).


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Not really, there is heavy tuning in our factory head units and they are different on every vehicle so a lot of his tuning was fighting the factory eq. He also tuned against nodes peaks and valleys specific to our cars environment. Your best bet is to start from scratch. Cross over points will be the closest but even those should change a little bit since its enclosure has changed as well (car door).


Absolutely correct, with one exception. The crossover points were chosen solely based on 3rd order harmonic distortion plots, which are driver dependent, not application dependent. Those were taken with gated frequency sweeps on ARTA so they are independent of environment anomalies or cancellations. I went as low as I reasonably could for those tweeters to raise the sound stage as much as possible. 

Everything else will need to be started from scratch, although it will sound better with my tune than it will without it.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Everything else will need to be started from scratch, although it will sound better with my tune than it will without it.


Exactly - and it'll sound a lot better than stock - which was my first and primary goal and I reasons I went this route versus the passive crossover route. Step 2 is perfecting it to my car. 

Now that said how do I split up the files?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> Exactly - and it'll sound a lot better than stock - which was my first and primary goal and I reasons I went this route versus the passive crossover route. Step 2 is perfecting it to my car.
> 
> Now that said how do I split up the files?


Read each of the files and write down the settings for each of the respective drivers, then tune those settings into a new file.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I disagree but thats just my opinion, none the less I will stick to my opinion that you are wasting your time loading his tune than just setting your x-over points to where he had them and tune with your instruments and environment. If it was me I would still revisit the x-over points but thats me.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I disagree but thats just my opinion, none the less I will stick to my opinion that you are wasting your time loading his tune than just setting your x-over points to where he had them and tune with your instruments and environment. If it was me I would still revisit the x-over points but thats me.


The point is he doesn't have the tools or experience to tune everything off the bat, and it will sound substantially better with my tune than it will with no tune at all. The time alignment will be a bit off but at least there will be some and not none at all. It will sound off but the time alignment can be tuned with a measuring tape as a start. From there, the anomalies can be tuned later when he picks up a microphone and pre-amp. I might just let him borrow mine to get the tuning done.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The point is he doesn't have the tools or experience to tune everything off the bat, and it will sound substantially better with my tune than it will with no tune at all. The time alignment will be a bit off but at least there will be some and not none at all. It will sound off but the time alignment can be tuned with a measuring tape as a start. From there, the anomalies can be tuned later when he picks up a microphone and pre-amp. I might just let him borrow mine to get the tuning done.


I get why I just want to push him to do whats best, that would be super nice of you to let him use your equipment. Its funny how people dont realize the amount of money they would have to pay for tuning and products that you give for free.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> I get why I just want to push him to do whats best, that would be super nice of you to let him use your equipment. Its funny how people dont realize the amount of money they would have to pay for tuning and products that you give for free.


Its also funny when people completely miss the point. I understand this would be very expensive and timely. BUT my goal was to initial spend ~$500 and do better than stock - after a phone call with Xtreme I was convinced that off the bat, we could do better than the big box store components I was originally looking at. 

Xtreme, let me go ahead and finish up this combo tune file as is, install everything (should be done this week/weekend) and then I make the time alignment adjustments as suggested.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

On another note, if anyone is in or is going to be in the albany region and wants to help - I'm willing to pay for your time.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> Its also funny when people completely miss the point. I understand this would be very expensive and timely. BUT my goal was to initial spend ~$500 and do better than stock - after a phone call with Xtreme I was convinced that off the bat, we could do better than the big box store components I was originally looking at.
> 
> Xtreme, let me go ahead and finish up this combo tune file as is, install everything (should be done this week/weekend) and then I make the time alignment adjustments as suggested.


Yeah, get it all installed and we can talk about letting you borrow my equipment to get the rest of it done. The miniDSP should automatically display a meter conversion to milliseconds so you don't have to do the math. You just measure from your ears to each driver and adjust the time delay in milliseconds to match that distance. From that point, you can play with the time alignment a bit here and there to fine tune where you want your sound stage to be. If you go too far to the left above the steering wheel, the stage will start to disappear. You will end up somewhere between the steering wheel and the center of the dash and you can literally hear the difference as you're tuning that part.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

giantsnation said:


> Its also funny when people completely miss the point. I understand this would be very expensive and timely. BUT my goal was to initial spend ~$500 and do better than stock - after a phone call with Xtreme I was convinced that off the bat, we could do better than the big box store components I was originally looking at.
> 
> Xtreme, let me go ahead and finish up this combo tune file as is, install everything (should be done this week/weekend) and then I make the time alignment adjustments as suggested.


Sorry that you were offended by my suggestion, I am only trying to give you my best suggestion based on the info you gave. Im sorry you took what I said the wrong way.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

ccasion14: We're all good. 

With 2 little kids, I just don't have the budget or time to do this the "right" way from the start. That doesn't mean that all hope is lost and I'm just looking for something better than stock - not trying to win competitions. 

That said, I'll be looking forward to learning more and making the necessary refinements.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

I just ran across this thread and loved it. Awesome info.
I'm planning to replace the stock system in the Cruze one day, but first I need to do my 2014 Z/28 since it sucks worse 
I am converted off car audio brand speakers after eding this thread, and the woofers in the doors are easy in the Z (6.5") but the tweeters are an issue. They need to go in the stock pods in the door sails and I can only fit a 3/4" tweeter there. can you guys recommend something please? 
I will be using a Morel Ultimo 12" sub that I already have.
Also, I assume I will need 2 2X4 miniDSP for this install (Right and Left) is that right? Should I get one for the sub as well or just use the crossover on the sub amp?
I'll be using an ARC SE4200 for the front stage and an ARC SE2300 for the sub. I have not decided if to replace my HU (simple basic unti from GM not mylink) with a Pioneer 4100NEX and Scosche kit or just get a LC6i and use the stock unit (for stealth)

TIA

Andrew


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

If by Z28 we are referring to a camaro z-28, I would probably not do anything just because its so rare. But if it doesnt matter to you than so be it.

Are you sure that only a 3/4" tweet will fit?
Morel Ultimo is an awesome woofer however 12" subs are tricky to get in the Camaros. You may need to glass it in the corner. 
Yes you should get 2X4 MINIDSP. If you wanna control the sub you can 2x8 but not sure thats really needed however that is the route I am going.
You have pretty good amps. The 4100nex is a decent head unit and it will make tuning a ton easier since you wont be fighting the factory eq ....as much
the mini dsp is really all you need, instead of a lc6i just use a decent 2 channel line level, otherwise you are wasting the other channels on the lc6i.


also I would use a PAC integration harness for the 4100 not scosche or metra. As well as a pac swirc but I think that car is can for swc


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## Dvan5693 (Jul 8, 2014)

So I guess everyone else gets their questions answered except for me?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Dvan5693 said:


> So I guess everyone else gets their questions answered except for me?


I went back 4 pages and didnt see your question. What is your question?


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

found it - page 18:



Dvan5693 said:


> So I'm kind of confused how the minidsp connects in with everything? I plan on upgrading my door speakers and tweeters and amplifying them as well.
> 
> Like what would I lose if I just amplified them and upgraded with the silverflute package? The whole minidsp thing just confuses the heck out of me...


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

The mini dsp replaces your passive crossovers that you would find in a traditional car audio set up. The crossover goes between the amp and the speakers to divide the desired frequencies to the specific drivers. So that way you dont bump bass in to your tweeters (in lamens terms). The mini dsp will actively cross over the signal before the amplifier so each channel on the amp have specific frequencies to deliver to specific drivers (speakers). So if you have a mini dsp that goes between your source (factory head unit or aftermarket deck) and the amplifier. With a 4 channel amp in an active set up 1 channel goes to 1 tweeter or one speaker not both.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> If by Z28 we are referring to a camaro z-28, I would probably not do anything just because its so rare. But if it doesnt matter to you than so be it.
> 
> Are you sure that only a 3/4" tweet will fit?
> Morel Ultimo is an awesome woofer however 12" subs are tricky to get in the Camaros. You may need to glass it in the corner.
> ...


Thanks hificruzer. I am referring to the Camaro Z/28 yes. I know it's rare, but unless I park it for 30 years that means nothing. I actually plan to drive it so whether I put a system in or not will not change anything.
I'll double check the tweeter size but in my old 2010 2SS (Camaro) I had HAT Clarus tweeters in that location and they fit tight.
Just to be clear, I would need two (2) miniDSPs (2X4 each) for the front stage right? not just one?
You make a good point on the LC6i, I'll get something else. 
For the sub, I have an enclosure (sealed) that is built by Subthump (2010-2014 Camaro/ZL1 Drivers Side Stealth Enclosure by Subthump) that fits on the driver side in the corner of the trunk. It's not great but not too bad I think.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> Thanks hificruzer. I am referring to the Camaro Z/28 yes. I know it's rare, but unless I park it for 30 years that means nothing. I actually plan to drive it so whether I put a system in or not will not change anything.
> I'll double check the tweeter size but in my old 2010 2SS (Camaro) I had HAT Clarus tweeters in that location and they fit tight.
> Just to be clear, I would need two (2) miniDSPs (2X4 each) for the front stage right? not just one?
> You make a good point on the LC6i, I'll get something else.
> For the sub, I have an enclosure (sealed) that is built by Subthump (2010-2014 Camaro/ZL1 Drivers Side Stealth Enclosure by Subthump) that fits on the driver side in the corner of the trunk. It's not great but not too bad I think.


I am totally jealous of your camaro btw.
No if you only want to run a 2 way active front stage you only need qty (1) 2x4 however if you want the ability to really tune in your sub and are looking to add a rear stage then go with qty (1) 2x8minidsp.

I have a 2x8 for my set up (not installed yet) but I am running a 3-way front stage and I wanted total subwoofer control. If you go with a 2x4 than I would get the lc2i instead of the lc6i


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Perfect thanks again.
now just to find the right tweeters and build up the guts to run speaker wires into the doors through that crazy plug they have there.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> Perfect thanks again.
> now just to find the right tweeters and build up the guts to run speaker wires into the doors through that crazy plug they have there.


What type of music are you listening to? Also what kind of depth do you have behind the pillar?


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## blk88verde (Apr 30, 2011)

That Z-28 is one serious awesome car. I read the Z-28s came with a single speaker system - anything and everything not adding to the performance of the car and save weight.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

I'm mostly into 70s and 80s music but not only.
The stock tweeters are not in the a-pillar. they are in the sail panel on the top of the doors. 
blk88verde is right, the car comes stripped down; no liner in the trunk, thinner rear window, thinner back seat, no sound proofing anywhere. 
As an option you can order AC and then you get 6 speakers instead of one, which I did cause i'm spoiled like that, but the system is crappy anyway.
When I drive my Cruze (2014 2LT) I feel like i'm driving a luxury car


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

After some measuring, I believe I can fit the Seas tweeters Xtreme recommended and I'm pretty sure the mids will fit so I'm good to go.

Mid Level: Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge
Dayton Audio RS180-4 7" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm 295-374
The Madisound Speaker Store


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

So everything is ordered except the deadening materials.
I am rethinking the sub though; instead of the Ultimo 12 in the sealed enclosure, I was thinking about 2 8" subs in 4th order band pass enclosures vented into the main cabin through the read deck 6X9 openings. I had this in my old T-bird with a pair of Pioneer woofers in custom boxes designed by a high end home audio guy.
Can anyone recommend woofers for this? Xtreme, would you be able to design and build enclosures for me (I'll pay of course)


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

swrocket said:


> So everything is ordered except the deadening materials.
> I am rethinking the sub though; instead of the Ultimo 12 in the sealed enclosure, I was thinking about 2 8" subs in 4th order band pass enclosures vented into the main cabin through the read deck 6X9 openings. I had this in my old T-bird with a pair of Pioneer woofers in custom boxes designed by a high end home audio guy.
> Can anyone recommend woofers for this? Xtreme, would you be able to design and build enclosures for me (I'll pay of course)


Make a new thread on subwoofer discussion and we can talk. The more Ultima is so ridiculously overpriced. There are fantastic raw drivers that perform at that level without the price tag.

Why bandpass?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

swrocket said:


> So everything is ordered except the deadening materials.
> I am rethinking the sub though; instead of the Ultimo 12 in the sealed enclosure, I was thinking about 2 8" subs in 4th order band pass enclosures vented into the main cabin through the read deck 6X9 openings. I had this in my old T-bird with a pair of Pioneer woofers in custom boxes designed by a high end home audio guy.
> Can anyone recommend woofers for this? Xtreme, would you be able to design and build enclosures for me (I'll pay of course)


oooouuuu someone's getting fun!
I hate bandpass enclosures they are super tricky... But they can sound amazing if dialed in perfect. 4th order has issues with port resonance, usually you get out of band resonance in a 4th order set up. 

I like to stick with free air and TL.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Make a new thread on subwoofer discussion and we can talk. The more Ultima is so ridiculously overpriced. There are fantastic raw drivers that perform at that level without the price tag.
> 
> Why bandpass?


Thanks Xtreme. Started a new thread here


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> oooouuuu someone's getting fun!
> I hate bandpass enclosures they are super tricky... But they can sound amazing if dialed in perfect. 4th order has issues with port resonance, usually you get out of band resonance in a 4th order set up.
> 
> I like to stick with free air and TL.


One of the reasons for the bandpass was to vent into the main cabin, but the guy that designed the box was the main reason. He looked at the specs for the woofers and said this design would work the best. He wasn't wrong 
We had originally built sealed enclosures but the subs sounded weak and really a lot of sound and pressure was lost just rattling the trunk lid. I listen mostly to 80 and 90 music so most of the base is drum and guitar not electronic.


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## Dvan5693 (Jul 8, 2014)

giantsnation said:


> found it - page 18:





hificruzer226 said:


> The mini dsp replaces your passive crossovers that you would find in a traditional car audio set up. The crossover goes between the amp and the speakers to divide the desired frequencies to the specific drivers. So that way you dont bump bass in to your tweeters (in lamens terms). The mini dsp will actively cross over the signal before the amplifier so each channel on the amp have specific frequencies to deliver to specific drivers (speakers). So if you have a mini dsp that goes between your source (factory head unit or aftermarket deck) and the amplifier. With a 4 channel amp in an active set up 1 channel goes to 1 tweeter or one speaker not both.


Thank you! That clears up alot. So to do the silver flute or the other package with a mini dsp. I would need a 4 channel amp correct? One channel for each driver...2 woofers and 2 tweeters?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Dvan5693 said:


> Thank you! That clears up alot. So to do the silver flute or the other package with a mini dsp. I would need a 4 channel amp correct? One channel for each driver...2 woofers and 2 tweeters?


yup


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## Dvan5693 (Jul 8, 2014)

hificruzer226 said:


> yup


Good stuff. Now I can sell my 2 channel amp lol.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Xtreme, I loaded the Dayton/Seas config into miniDSP software (just to start getting an understanding of how it works, the install is not started yet)
and have a couple of questions.
First, just to make sure, Output 1 is passenger mid and output 2 is passenger tweeter correct? and the same on the driver side?
second the Seas tweeter is crossed over at 1800 in this config. Is that correct? seems super low for a tweeter...in my old system, using HAT components with active x-over running of an MS-8, the tweeter was at 4800 with a 24db slope.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I know your question was specifically directed at xtreme however 4800hz is kinda up there for a 2 way component set up, no offense but the seas tweet is a much better tweet than HAT they HiVi to build there stuff.....
Also if I am not mistaken you can assign what ever tuning parameters to whatever channel you want. Though if you are using his tune than you might wanna know how he had it set up. I would also recommend doing your own tune as its a different vehicle and radio.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

No problem hifi, I appreciate your reply. LOL, I don't take offense at all, that's why this time around I went with this setup instead of just buying another component set. I know 4800 is high, but that's what was recommended to me by the installer. This time I'm going to learn how and do it myself (with all your guys help of course)
I know I have to change the config for T/A and PEQ but was thinking the x-over may be ok as is. In any case, I'm a visual learner so seeing a config implemented along with Xtreme's writeup in this thread helps me clarify things. I was just asking how it's set up so I can picture it for myself.
I have almost everything now (missing sound deadening and a mic for the RTA software) I will make a build thread in the Camaro5 forum (since this is a Cruze forum I didn't think it would be appropriate) but I'll link to it here.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

X-over should be almost identical, I think it should be revisited. xtreme begs to differ but to each there own. A guy just did his passat build after doing exactly what you are doing about a week ago.
Giantsfan I think is his name. You can post anything on here as long as it doesnt directly hurt anyone or you try to make money off of something without a vendor account


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

4800hz is WAY too high for the seas prestige. You are giving up a lot of sound stage to do that. Those tweeters are good down to at least 2000hz and as low as 1800hz with a steep crossover slope. You need that to raise your sound stage.


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## swrocket (Oct 4, 2014)

Just goes to prove your initial point Xtreme. For the price of the HAT components (Clarus mids with L1V2 tweeters that I had) I got better tweeters and mids as well as a great DSP. Along with those 2 15" Lo Riders in Parallel this system is gonna rock.
Thanks again for taking the time to create these 2 threads Xtreme, and thanks to everyone for the lessons, information and feedback.


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## HurikaneDrew (Jul 7, 2014)

I'm completely new to this so I'm going to ask.. if I have Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1s in all four doors what are my options to make my system sound as good as possible? I have a Kenwood DDX8901HD head unit and an Infinity Kappa Four Amp. I thought maybe I could get the miniDSP and use it as a crossover instead of the passive crossover the Kappa Perfect 6.1s come with. My head unit has a Digital Time Alignment setting but I'm not sure it is best to make a real difference. Please help?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

HurikaneDrew said:


> I'm completely new to this so I'm going to ask.. if I have Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1s in all four doors what are my options to make my system sound as good as possible? I have a Kenwood DDX8901HD head unit and an Infinity Kappa Four Amp. I thought maybe I could get the miniDSP and use it as a crossover instead of the passive crossover the Kappa Perfect 6.1s come with. My head unit has a Digital Time Alignment setting but I'm not sure it is best to make a real difference. Please help?


The Time Alignment makes a big difference, so does eliminating the passive crossover. Also being able to properly eq your system with mini dsp will have a huge impact. If you go with the mini dsp you will need another amp to power your rear speakers..
If you are willing to spend the money and time its well worth it. Just dont go in thinking it is plug and play unless you wanna sell your kappa perfects and go with xtremes drivers and just load up his tune.


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

I can't seem to find it in this thread but I'm curious to know how low the Silver Flutes can go. I had seen on another forum that someone had them down to 50hz! The reason I'm asking is because I only have a front sound stage and no plans to add a sub.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

giantsnation said:


> I can't seem to find it in this thread but I'm curious to know how low the Silver Flutes can go. I had seen on another forum that someone had them down to 50hz! The reason I'm asking is because I only have a front sound stage and no plans to add a sub.


Don't expect much from a 6.5" driver. They will go low, and will sound good with some thorough door treatment. However, there's always a compromise between low frequency extension and output. Yeah they can do 50hz, but how loud before they bottom out? Feel free to experiment. You can set your own crossover frequency and slope.


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

Hello, I just picked up my '14 Cruze last week. I ordered the Silver Flutes, and Vifa tweeters. I have an older DQX AudioControl crossover/eq. Does anyone have any input on this vs. the MiniDSP? Should I keep the DQX or ditch it for the Mini?


Thank you in advance!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Boredmods said:


> Hello, I just picked up my '14 Cruze last week. I ordered the Silver Flutes, and Vifa tweeters. I have an older DQX AudioControl crossover/eq. Does anyone have any input on this vs. the MiniDSP? Should I keep the DQX or ditch it for the Mini?
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance!


Sell it and get the miniDSP. It is far more powerful. Use the tune I posted.


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

Ok perfect. I have a questiin about install of the minidsp if you don't mind. I have a line out converter with 1 set of rca out. I see the mini goes 4 channels out, and I am running a jl xd600/6 amp. Where can I get the signal input for my sub?

Thank you


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Boredmods said:


> Ok perfect. I have a questiin about install of the minidsp if you don't mind. I have a line out converter with 1 set of rca out. I see the mini goes 4 channels out, and I am running a jl xd600/6 amp. Where can I get the signal input for my sub?
> 
> Thank you


You will need another line out converter. Tap those into the rear speaker channels.


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

Where do you find the best place to tuck the converters? I picked up 2 PAC line out converters, I am trying to avoid running the rca wires/new speaker wire up the drivers side due to my power wire running that way. Where did you find the best area to tap into the stock speaker wire? And did you run all new speaker wire to each speaker, or re tap into the stock wire ? Sorry for the barrage of questions, I'm just used to using after market decks.


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

I got the above issue solved. I have the Silverflute setup, some some reason I feel like there is a gap in the low end. Maybe just my sub/box config?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

define low end. 50hz-120hz?


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

hificruzer226 said:


> define low end. 50hz-120hz?


Actually that is probably spot on. My lows that I do have 50-90 hz sound like the are a bit delayed too.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Most car audio system are weak in this bandwidth. I would recommend some deadening to help retrieve that pass band. You should be able to pull gains up a bit to grab a little more in that bandwidth. The inherit problem is its hard for a 6.5 woofer to play with real authority off axis in a leaky enclosure (door panel). Thats why I am gonna run dedicated 7" woofers for 50hz-400hz with heavy duty motor structures. I wish I could run 12's in the front stage for that band width but I am not destroying my cruze completely.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

As far as the delay its probably because of your ear position is different then where xtreme measured his ear, or you may wanna check to see if you have a phase issue since both of these symptoms can be attributed to this


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I had serious door treatment done to make those drivers work down to my crossover point. You won't get much low end out of them without that. It's just the nature of door speakers. Double check the time alignment distances. Those are a good start but you'll need to fine tune.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Hi extreme, first, I am learning about sq starting with your post and would like to thank you for the enormous amount of time and effort you put into giving of your obviously expert help. I don't have a cruze, but am starting to put the silver flute/ vifa combo minidsp in my 2006 f150 extended cab. I already have the speakers, the minidsp, and a precision power amp. I have some infinity kappa 6 x 8 in the back stock locations. They have a low response of 50 hz and 100 watt rms rating. I know these are terribly insufficient for the sub response to match the silver/vifa combo up front. As I don't have much room under the bench seat for a sub (maybe 8 inch x 12 in x 12 inch) and I don't know if the stock rear door locations can support any sub performance. Can u give me any advice on what I can do? I have dynamat (I know that's not your preferred sound deadener) installed on all doors, both on panel and on inside of door skins. I listen to really everything, but am interested in good sound quality and staging. I'm so sorry that this was so long winded. Thank you so much for you time.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

How much depth do you have to work with in the back stock locations? What kind of door treatment did you do there? Is it a sound block or just vibration deadener?


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm guessing 4 inches depth. The panels have a pretty good gap, maybe 2 more inches I could build up. Just dynamat.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

chadg73 said:


> I'm guessing 4 inches depth. The panels have a pretty good gap, maybe 2 more inches I could build up. Just dynamat.


Let me clarify. "Just dynamat" doesn't describe a method or completion of coverage. The whole point of a subwoofer enclosure is to separate the front waves from the back waves of the cone. That means setting up a sound barrier. Does your dynamat coverage consist of a sound barrier, or did you only apply it to metal surfaces to absorb vibration?


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

O, sorry. Completely covered. No holes, except tiny ones for door operation wires. Sheet metal over large holes and after complete layer up to door panel boundaries, a second layer over large hole areas.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Also, I feel like from what I have read you give good advice, so if you suggest I do this, this, and I can accommodate it budget wise, I am certainly willing to make modifications. I always try to weigh a budget approach vs performance and usually fall somewhere in the middle.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Can you expand that 6x8 cutout to fit an 8" driver? If so, take a look at this:

Tang Band W8-1853 8" Neodymium Poly Woofer

If not, take a look at this:

Peerless 830946 6-1/2" Paper Cone Woofer Speaker 4 Ohm

Only catch with both of those is you'd need a high pass filter on the amplifier. Those won't be happy full range.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Lol, I'm not squeamish. I'll cut and even weld on the door panels if necessary. I notice the peerless has a 20 hz response listed, but lower rms capabilities. The tang is 37 hz, but 100 watt rms. I do listen to some r and b and rap, along with rock and country. Which in your opinion would perform better on a sq level with a little heavy bass? Any improvements to the doors that might help? Will two of the tangs or peerless balance power level with the silver/ vifa combo? I can run the ppi amp 145 rms x 2 (it also does 100 x 4). I was thinking about 50 to the silvers and 15 to 20? rms to the vifas.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

I know precision power used to be tops and got sold several times. There are alot of questions about quality. What is your take on the sedona series. I know these are not the elite amps I should be into, but am curious. Also, I feel like I owe you something for your time, lol. Is there anything I can do to support your efforts? Last question. .... promise....I've been reading your post so long I feel like I'm bothering a sound celebrity, lol. Are there any additional books/sources where I can learn more to recognize good speakers and properly tune according to what I read on the rta? Just of the top of your head.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Have to say one nice thing about my Cruze, one of the quietest vehicles that I have every owned. Translates into greater dynamic range, for years, was compressing the sound first when recording tapes. 

Ha, thought I did a good job on modifying the sound system in my Supra, sounds really great when parked, but not so much at highway speeds, and terrible when I have our kayak strapped to the top of it. Car could use tons of sound insulation that the Cruze already has.

Then I read about mods to the Cruze that increase the noise, sure in contradiction to getting an excellent sound system. Key requirement is extremely low background noise.

Ha already paid a fortune to watch a live symphonic orchestra, only to listen to all the people in the audience constantly cough.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

NickD said:


> Ha already paid a fortune to watch a live symphonic orchestra, only to listen to all the people in the audience constantly cough.


HaHa everytime I go that is all I can seem to pay attention to dang my ADHD.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

chadg73 said:


> Lol, I'm not squeamish. I'll cut and even weld on the door panels if necessary. I notice the peerless has a 20 hz response listed, but lower rms capabilities. The tang is 37 hz, but 100 watt rms. I do listen to some r and b and rap, along with rock and country. Which in your opinion would perform better on a sq level with a little heavy bass? Any improvements to the doors that might help? Will two of the tangs or peerless balance power level with the silver/ vifa combo? I can run the ppi amp 145 rms x 2 (it also does 100 x 4). I was thinking about 50 to the silvers and 15 to 20? rms to the vifas.


There's also this one if you're more adventurous. It's a bigger driver. 

Tang Band W8-2022 8" RBM Subwoofer 8 Ohm

The peerless is a 6.5" driver and the Tang Band is a 8". Cone area is king. Always go with the higher cone area if you can make it fit.

The Vifa/Silver Flute combo requires its own 4-channel amp. That 2-channel won't work. You could use it for the rear speakers though. 



chadg73 said:


> I know precision power used to be tops and got sold several times. There are alot of questions about quality. What is your take on the sedona series. I know these are not the elite amps I should be into, but am curious. Also, I feel like I owe you something for your time, lol. Is there anything I can do to support your efforts? Last question. .... promise....I've been reading your post so long I feel like I'm bothering a sound celebrity, lol. Are there any additional books/sources where I can learn more to recognize good speakers and properly tune according to what I read on the rta? Just of the top of your head.


PPI used to be great but at some point got bought out, I forget by who. That's not to say they aren't still making decent products. I just don't go out of my way to find them. You'll be fine using it if you already have it. 

As for publications, yeah, there is one. 

Speaker Building 201 Book

The rest will take time and experience. My advice if you want to learn is to take a break from mobile audio. Go to techtalk.parts-express.com, build a proven design (Overnight Sensations would be a good start), and once you're comfortable with the basics, read, read, read as much as you can, ask as many questions ask you can, and start designing your own set of speakers. Your own cabinet, your own crossover, your own baffle simulations, everything. In that process, you'll learn more than you ever will have in mobile audio, and you'll be able to apply that knowledge to mobile audio to achieve better results than anyone you'll be likely to meet. 

Mobile audio has this "throw better parts at it" mentality that is devoid of real design. As you've read through my posts here, design is key. Once you have a good design and good tuning, only then can you start concerning yourself with higher quality drivers. It will take you several months to reach that point, but if you're like me and are passionate about areas of interest and want to learn, it will be a worthwhile adventure.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Yep, I need another amp and have a sedona. I was debating getting another one so they would match. Thanks for the resources for learning. There is so much information out there and alot of it is by noob experts. I try to start with good information. I'll consider the home build. Im taking that is a better place to learn real proven information than car audio hocus pocus. Thank you very much for your time. I'm anxious to get everything in place. I'll post when it's done, but it might be awhile. Full time job and my herd of six mini humans keeps me busy, lol. Thanx


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

chadg73 said:


> Yep, I need another amp and have a sedona. I was debating getting another one so they would match. Thanks for the resources for learning. There is so much information out there and alot of it is by noob experts. I try to start with good information. I'll consider the home build. Im taking that is a better place to learn real proven information than car audio hocus pocus. Thank you very much for your time. I'm anxious to get everything in place. I'll post when it's done, but it might be awhile. Full time job and my herd of six mini humans keeps me busy, lol. Thanx


Mobile audio is over-saturated with a "throw more expensive parts at it" mentality, and a TON of marketing. Companies like Kicker and JL Audio for example spend more money and time on marketing than they do on R&D. On top of this, self-proclaimed experts rely entirely on anecdote to make recommendations and write reviews. It's pretty bad. The DIY home audio environment is different. People are very objective when it comes to speaker driver choices. Everything is measured endlessly. Those speakers are then brought to shows and regional events where they are compared and judged by other experienced speaker designers, and the designs are published for others who liked them to build. That community is where real learning happens. The DIY mobile audio scene is a waste of time. I learned more in one year in the DIY speaker world than I did my entire life installing mobile audio systems. If you are passionate or interested in audio, you owe it to yourself to take my advice to heart and start your journey learning to design speakers. Make one successful design of your own, and then come back to the mobile audio world. Everything will look totally different. In addition to that, build a few proven DIY designs and you'll start to see what music is supposed to sound like. This will only add to the satisfaction of listening to a properly designed system.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

XR speaks the truth... car audio has a thousand online experts for every one person who truly knows their stuff. I know a reasonable amount about audio in general, but the guys on the DIY home audio forums can lose me in a heartbeat. Designing a REAL passive crossover, for example, is something not many people can get right, even with modeling software!

There's real talent in taking a set of average priced drivers and making a top-notch speaker out of them, and even more talent in taking top-notch drivers and not making them sound terrible. Car audio companies, generally speaking, make a half-arsed effort at making below average drivers sound acceptable... and charging top-notch prices for their stuff.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

An analogy just came to me... a good golfer will do much better with yard sale clubs than a crummy golfer will do with a brand new set of Ping's finest.

Properly implemented, "decent"drivers can sound terrific. Poorly implemented, the best drivers can sound awful.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> There's also this one if you're more adventurous. It's a bigger driver.
> 
> Tang Band W8-2022 8" RBM Subwoofer 8 Ohm
> 
> ...


Why not the silver flute 8?
Also PPI was bought out by DEI(YOU KNOW THE SAME COMPANY WHO RUINED ADS AND ORION, also they make Viper as wells as 95% of all other remote start brands) than DEI sold it someone else and they are doing a better job trying to revive its rep. On one of their components they are using the modified dayton amt mini8.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

You wanna get serious, read the papers produced by John Eargle, Vance Dickason, John L Muphy and D. Keele. I am currently infatuated with Keeles design CBT line array I am about to build a rediculous set for my house.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Why not the silver flute 8?
> Also PPI was bought out by DEI(YOU KNOW THE SAME COMPANY WHO RUINED ADS AND ORION, also they make Viper as wells as 95% of all other remote start brands) than DEI sold it someone else and they are doing a better job trying to revive its rep. On one of their components they are using the modified dayton amt mini8.


Silver flute 8 isn't what I would consider a subwoofer duty driver. It is an amazing deal for the money, but there are better options out there.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Silver flute 8 isn't what I would consider a subwoofer duty driver. It is an amazing deal for the money, but there are better options out there.


Forgot we were talking subs sorry for the brain fart.
I thought about doing w3 8"
but I think the peerless 830667 would be better esp at $65 a piece and would work well in a door


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Forgot we were talking subs sorry for the brain fart.
> I thought about doing w3 8"
> but I think the peerless 830667 would be better esp at $65 a piece and would work well in a door


The Xmax on that peerless driver is also misleading. It has a lot more excursion than the numbers show. That's only magnetic gap.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

What sold me on it was .66 qts and that's gonna perform better in a leaky door "enclosure" vs something in the .3 range. Though usually a low qts tells the tale of a better motor structure and more control, it being a car sub in door the peerless would my choice from all angles


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Hi hifi. 
You wanna get serious, read the papers produced by John Eargle, Vance Dickason, John L Muphy and D. Keele. I am currently infatuated with Keeles design CBT line array I am about to build a rediculous set for my house.

Are these papers available online? They may be over my head. I have a electronics background and work in industrial maintenance, so I'm not dumb, but I'm low on the ladder when it comes to audio I think. Yes, I get that ppi is trying to move back up. I'm more conconcerned that their recent years (stuff that are in the used market) aren't up to snuff. I've only had the sedona running a short time and it sounds decent to me, but it seems to run pretty warm. I had soundstream and ppi stuff back in the late 80s early 90s and it was nice. I already ordered the speaker building 201 book Xtreme suggested. Any learning resources you would suggest? Also, I was considering a 10 inch box for my truck in addition to one of Xtreme's suggestions. Any ideas from either of you two?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Love this book
Loudspeaker Design Cookbook 7th Edition Book

Free lit. D keele and john Eargle worked together on the cbt and it is now the reference for all concert.
AES Papers -- Official website of D.B.Keele

steve deckert of decware fun good reads
DECWARE / Articles and Papers On Hi-Fi


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

The fun part about the audio world is that its a lot of math/science but there is the human element of art that also has a big factor. Building, designing and experimenting is what makes it such a great hobby... the strive for perfection is there and has never been accomplished. This is what makes the audio industry a fun exciting adventure that will leave squeezing every opportunity to take the next step. though there are sometimes when you fail or can not figure out issues and you will end up pulling your hair out or whats left of it, however thats when you learn and discover new cool ideas. Progression in this field is done by error and how you overcome it! An artist is never done with his canvas  enjoy


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Thanks for the info! I enjoy hearing something in a song I've listened to hundreds of times or seeing someone who doesn't know anything about system performance get that wow expression. My favorite thing is when the music takes over and the world melts away. I like figuring it out too. If you understand how and why with anything, then you understand what is supposed to be like, what's really wrong, and what you can improve on. Thanks again for the help.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

chadg73 said:


> I had soundstream and ppi stuff back in the late 80s early 90s and it was nice.


Ha, memories! I still have the first good amp I ever bought new, a Soundstream Reference 500. I paid $1000 for it, then bought a Reference 604 soon after, a demo model. I haven't used them for several years, I hope they still work. Apparently the switches can go bad with time.

Before those I had a couple of black PPI amps that linked to an active crossover with DIN cables (balanced I think).

In the early 2000's I found Ebay and bought a bunch of used Soundstream amps... I couldn't resist! I knew what I had paid for mine new and they were selling for pennies on the dollar. Needless to say I have a good selection of nice amps, doing an excellent job of holding down a shelf in my basement storage room. Doh!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> What sold me on it was .66 qts and that's gonna perform better in a leaky door "enclosure" vs something in the .3 range. Though usually a low qts tells the tale of a better motor structure and more control, it being a car sub in door the peerless would my choice from all angles


With a high pass filter set at about 40hz, you'd be pretty happy with the 8" due to a far higher cone area. You need that high pass filter though or the Peerless does turn into a better option.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Xtreme, hifi, blue, I know the cone area of two 8's would be higher than one ten, but would I be better served low hz response and sq to go with 1 higher end 10 inch in a sealed box? Lower qts (sealed box sub) being possibly flatter response and less group delays for better imaging?


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Blue, you wouldn't possibly be fishing to get rid of an old soundstream amp or two at a decent price? I've considered buying old school amps because I hear they hold up even though they are 20 + years old, but I'm always terribly worried the electrolytic caps are almost dried up. I think even though amps use electrolytic instead of metal film caps.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I got an mmats sq4160 for sale :sad010:


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

chadg73 said:


> Xtreme, hifi, blue, I know the cone area of two 8's would be higher than one ten, but would I be better served low hz response and sq to go with 1 higher end 10 inch in a sealed box? Lower qts (sealed box sub) being possibly flatter response and less group delays for better imaging?


I was under the impression this was going in the door....
if you can get ref bass down to mid/low 30's from your front stage in a car than thats saying something. Everyone can put a ten in the rear.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> With a high pass filter set at about 40hz, you'd be pretty happy with the 8" due to a far higher cone area. You need that high pass filter though or the Peerless does turn into a better option.


Peerless 830667 is an 8" woofer.....With an SD of 214 the TB is "230 cm²". The big difference that would make it tough is the TB has a n fs of 25hz..... The peerless is 1/2 the price.... what a pickle!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> Peerless 830667 is an 8" woofer.....With an SD of 214 the TB is "230 cm²". The big difference that would make it tough is the TB has a n fs of 25hz..... The peerless is 1/2 the price.... what a pickle!


Yes... And a nearly 4.5" mounting depth, which is why I ignored it.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Yes... And a nearly 4.5" mounting depth, which is why I ignored it.


The TB 4.28


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Ok hifi, looked up the msrp on the mmat.......sorry, I blacked out there for a second. Seriously, it looks awsome spec wise, just way out of my price range for now. Sorry about the mislead. I do have rear door space available, but that's a pretty poor environment for a sub and I do have a little under rear bench seat available for a ten. I almost take the "anybody can a ten" as a challenge, lol. I also apologize for wishy washy ness of what I'm doing. Im trying to go from the "jl audio car speakers are the bomb" thinking to actually what, how, and why a system should and can really sound like. I really appreciate everyone's inputs.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

By the way, Xtreme, I started reading the speaker building 201 today. I'm impressed. I might actually be a good beginner by the time I understand what's in that book. Thanks for a great resource.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

chadg73 said:


> Ok hifi, looked up the msrp on the mmat.......sorry, I blacked out there for a second. Seriously, it looks awsome spec wise, just way out of my price range for now. Sorry about the mislead. I do have rear door space available, but that's a pretty poor environment for a sub and I do have a little under rear bench seat available for a ten. I almost take the "anybody can a ten" as a challenge, lol. I also apologize for wishy washy ness of what I'm doing. Im trying to go from the "jl audio car speakers are the bomb" thinking to actually what, how, and why a system should and can really sound like. I really appreciate everyone's inputs.


im selling for 350


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> The TB 4.28


Yeah and that's already pushing it lol.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Hifi, man that's a awsome price. If you still have it in a few weeks I might have to bite the bullet. I'm sure at that price it will go quick though. Maybe, Ill get back to you about it.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Chad so what direction are you going?


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Honestly, I don't know. I'm reading the speaker building 201 book Xtreme suggested and that's alot to take in. The 6.5 peerless and the tb w8 neo have alot of similarities, but I know cone area is king. I now know a low qts is usually a sign of a more controlled speaker, but I don't know how much a few hundredths difference in qts really matters. The peerless so does have a significantly lower Mms, less than half of the TB. As I understand, that means it should have a better transient response. There is also about a 4d difference in sensitivity, that's a good bit of difference in volume. Lol, I guess what I'm saying is I don't know. I'm not in a hurry to jump having gotten so much good information from you all to learn from. Also, to top that off, I got in my truck today and this evil thought crossed my mind "Man, there sure is alot of unused space in the back seat from the top of the rear glass and the ceiling. I wonder if anyone has ever made a sub box up there? I mean, sub frequencies are pretty hard for us to locate, so what's the difference between under us or over us? Although, I wonder if sub frequencies hitting the top of our ears first would cause perception problems?". Yah, I know, more than you probably wanted to read, lol. A moment inside my head


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

chadg73 said:


> Honestly, I don't know. I'm reading the speaker building 201 book Xtreme suggested and that's alot to take in. The 6.5 peerless and the tb w8 neo have alot of similarities, but I know cone area is king. I now know a low qts is usually a sign of a more controlled speaker, but I don't know how much a few hundredths difference in qts really matters. The peerless so does have a significantly lower Mms, less than half of the TB. As I understand, that means it should have a better transient response. There is also about a 4d difference in sensitivity, that's a good bit of difference in volume. Lol, I guess what I'm saying is I don't know. I'm not in a hurry to jump having gotten so much good information from you all to learn from. Also, to top that off, I got in my truck today and this evil thought crossed my mind "Man, there sure is alot of unused space in the back seat from the top of the rear glass and the ceiling. I wonder if anyone has ever made a sub box up there? I mean, sub frequencies are pretty hard for us to locate, so what's the difference between under us or over us? Although, I wonder if sub frequencies hitting the top of our ears first would cause perception problems?". Yah, I know, more than you probably wanted to read, lol. A moment inside my head


A lower Qts also means that the sub can bottom out more easily and will not have an enclosure to control that, which is why you need an electrical filter on it to keep it from playing that low. Most free air subs have a high Qts. A very high Qts is in the 0.8 range and a very low Qts is in the 0.2 range. The range is pretty small so every little bit does make a difference. 

Start being active on the parts-express forums. You'll thank me.


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## chadg73 (Jul 6, 2015)

Thanks extreme, I'll start following the parts express forums. I really do appreciate you and everyone's help.


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## HurikaneDrew (Jul 7, 2014)

Extreme, I have the Infinity kappa Perfect 6.1 component set. How would I go about figuring out the rms of each individual speaker? Like the rms of the tweeter and woofer separately, I'd like to run the tweeters and woofers to their own channels for my front sound stage.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

HurikaneDrew said:


> Extreme, I have the Infinity kappa Perfect 6.1 component set. How would I go about figuring out the rms of each individual speaker? Like the rms of the tweeter and woofer separately, I'd like to run the tweeters and woofers to their own channels for my front sound stage.



It doesn't really matter what they are. They will distort to the point of discomfort well before they reach those ratings anyway. The tweeters will only really take about 5-10W of power, but the frequencies played through them require far less power as well. Don't get caught up with power ratings.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Most power ratings are generally thermal ratings... when tuned and set up properly they can generally handle more. I always like to overbuild and detune in audio it creates what is called headroom. The more power you have generally the more "control" you have of a given driver. The peerless I recommend is an 8 not a 6.5...


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## HurikaneDrew (Jul 7, 2014)

Thank you gents


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## Sam Ogranaja (Jun 30, 2015)

Been following this thread for a while. I'd like to say Thank You to XtremeRevolution and hificruzer226 and all the other contributors on here. I've learned a ton. I don't have a Cruze, I have an 06 XB. I installed Silver Flutes and CSS LD22Cs for my front stage and it sounds amazing. I still haven't tuned it, I have crossover points of 1900 for the tweeters and 80 for the woofer running a Soundstream Tarantula 500.4. I have an old Zapgo AG650 that I was planning on using but the power and ground wires were too thick for it so I went the lazy route and threw in my babied Tarantula since that's what the wire was ran for. I really would like to switch to the Zapco. I fear if I don't, I'm going to have to buy another Tarantula for subs 

Andrei or hifi, how do you tune each individual driver? I have the MiniDsp installed and UMIK1. Meaning, how can I run a specific signal at a certain HZ through REW and what am I looking for in terms of the distortion line? Please feel free to redirect me somewhere else. I don't mind reading but am having a hard time finding someones post on this topic. 

Thank you again! You guys are sooooo lucky to have these boys contributing here and I'm super glad to have run across this. 
Have a great week!
Sam


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

Hey XR or hifi, what are your thoughts on these baffles for the doors?
DEI 050330 Boom Mat 6.5" Round Speaker Baffle - Pack of 2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0039Z3SRA/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_CapSvbMYB9DAQ

Would they help/hinder the performance of the silver flutes? I have installed them more for moisture protection, although due to their shallowness I am beginning to wonder if they are causing issues with the rear waves. Hope I am using the correct terminology lol


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Sam Ogranaja said:


> Been following this thread for a while. I'd like to say Thank You to XtremeRevolution and hificruzer226 and all the other contributors on here. I've learned a ton. I don't have a Cruze, I have an 06 XB. I installed Silver Flutes and CSS LD22Cs for my front stage and it sounds amazing. I still haven't tuned it, I have crossover points of 1900 for the tweeters and 80 for the woofer running a Soundstream Tarantula 500.4. I have an old Zapgo AG650 that I was planning on using but the power and ground wires were too thick for it so I went the lazy route and threw in my babied Tarantula since that's what the wire was ran for. I really would like to switch to the Zapco. I fear if I don't, I'm going to have to buy another Tarantula for subs
> 
> Andrei or hifi, how do you tune each individual driver? I have the MiniDsp installed and UMIK1. Meaning, how can I run a specific signal at a certain HZ through REW and what am I looking for in terms of the distortion line? Please feel free to redirect me somewhere else. I don't mind reading but am having a hard time finding someones post on this topic.
> 
> ...



Tuning a driver is done different ways. The general staple is setting crossover frequencies based on measured harmonic distortions (3rd order is the most common) among other things. Than for eq you run pink noise and measure via RTA to set your desired levels within the driver's param. It was gone over in the first version of this thread sq car audio how to. 

slopes of x-overs are important where do you have them set? 80 is kinda high with a steep slope on those.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Boredmods said:


> Hey XR or hifi, what are your thoughts on these baffles for the doors?
> DEI 050330 Boom Mat 6.5" Round Speaker Baffle - Pack of 2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0039Z3SRA/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_CapSvbMYB9DAQ
> 
> Would they help/hinder the performance of the silver flutes? I have installed them more for moisture protection, although due to their shallowness I am beginning to wonder if they are causing issues with the rear waves. Hope I am using the correct terminology lol


So I do not like to use them since they flex and effect the response of the driver. However they are good for moisture protection. Did you notice a neg effect on midbass/bass performance?


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

hificruzer226 said:


> So I do not like to use them since they flex and effect the response of the driver. However they are good for moisture protection. Did you notice a neg effect on midbass/bass performance?


I have not tried them without the baffles yet. Trying to get some opinions before I take them out, I have a feeling once I go to remove them they will be pretty well shot.

After reading a few reviews it seems as though my fears are the general consensus. Seems that they cause most of the bass from the drivers to go flat. I was thinking that those huge motors should be producing a bit more punch lol. Maybe I should try cutting the bottom out to vent it back into the door, but still keep the speaker protected?


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## Boredmods (Jun 14, 2015)

Well I pulled out the door drivers and cut the entire back off those baffles. What a difference. The speakers came to life. The only other thing I may do is pull the vifa tweets and replace with the seas. I'll have to look at the tunes and see how hard that will be lol


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## HurikaneDrew (Jul 7, 2014)

My speakers almost sounded better with the boom mats but I have no choice because for some reason my speakers were getting wet to the point of rusted terminals. Now with the boom mats they are dry, nice and clean. They also might sound better because my doors are not treated with any kind of deadening material like they should be..


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hiii guyzz...plzzz i need ur help to get a good sound quality and sound staging in front...i have spent a lot for the stuff which is installed in my car and i was expecting the best sound quality but i am not able to hear full clear n rich music...plzzz pepl help me i am attaching a pic of stuff which is installed in my car....i am really waitin for a good help...thanx alot


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hi hifi....i need ur help to set me a awsm sound quality in my car...i am poor on settings from amp to HU...


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

drnafees said:


> Hiii guyzz...plzzz i need ur help to get a good sound quality and sound staging in front...i have spent a lot for the stuff which is installed in my car and i was expecting the best sound quality but i am not able to hear full clear n rich music...plzzz pepl help me i am attaching a pic of stuff which is installed in my car....i am really waitin for a good help...thanx alot


Step 1 get a mini dsp. 
step 2 get rid off your x-overs
step 3 find someone with a rta or buy one
step 4 read sq car audio how to
step 5 follow that direction

or sell your speakers and start fresh.

You have decent equipment but I am sure you put some money in here.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

drnafees said:


> Hi hifi....i need ur help to set me a awsm sound quality in my car...i am poor on settings from amp to HU...


Where are you located? Also is that an NEX PIONEER?


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hifi..thanx for ur response...i am in india dude..:blush:the only way i can get ur help is through chat...plzzz help to to fix up..


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Yes it is NEX PIONEER WITH PHASE CONTROL, CROSS OVER CONTROL AND 11 BAND EQ


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

I dont mind shelling some more money thro credit card...i am really not enjoyin music in my car


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

which aspect i need put some money in...i mean speakers or mini dsp


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Since its a nex the cheapest 1st step would be to buy the pioneer mic and have it auto eq that will help a bit with the peaks and valleys


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

This is supposed to be good HU IN INDIA..AVH 8690 sold by dis name in india..it comes with microphone and have auto time allingment, crossover points and auto eq etc etc...


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hiii hifi...good mornin from india:blush:bro i followed ur first step and i have done time alingment and auto eq with leavin mice on drivers head rest....but i disconnected the sub woofer enclosure wire and then did it....plz tel me am i on right track or first step only i am wrong


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

drnafees said:


> Hiii hifi...good mornin from india:blush:bro i followed ur first step and i have done time alingment and auto eq with leavin mice on drivers head rest....but i disconnected the sub woofer enclosure wire and then did it....plz tel me am i on right track or first step only i am wrong


You tell me. Does it sound better? 
If not than on to the next.

One problem, Sound quality is a lot like a fine wine if you dont know what makes wine perfect than you are not going to know when you taste that perfect wine.


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hiii...i does sounds better but time alingnment of sub i have done it manually..honestly i hav some queries about ist step that is auto eq n time alignment....
1.how do v time aligne subs enclosure.
2.when auto eq is on thn where v are suppose to keep 13band eq...i mean flat, natural, vocal, powerful, superbass or coustom 
3.after auto eq and time align there is complete change in cross over points on HU...COMPO 80HZ WTH 12DB SLOPE, REAR COAXIAL HPF IS OFF


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Plz hifi i need ur patience and sorry if atal i hav asked some stupid ?....tel me bro wthr auto eq procedure was done upto mark or done wrongly...i really need ur help if i hav to put some money in for any upgradation...thanx bro vl luk forward to ur reply


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Dont worry about sounding stupid leave that to me . I am sure english is not your first language, as well as audio is not a common language so I can imagine this especially difficult for you.the auto eg set everything for you automatically.

If you dont like the way it sounds after the auto eq than we must move to the next step.


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hahaha...thanx for cooperation...ya its sounds better but i am still not satisfied with the performance...its not playin upto its potential and i m sure i am missin lots...its boomy n there is no chest thump from sub and compos not soundin upto mark there is a lot of midbass i am missing...
Right now i hav crossover point for sub is LPF100hz at 18db, front compos HPF 80hz at 12db and rear tray coaxial HPF IS OFF..i mean to say crossover setting from Head Unit


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I would put a xover on the rear coax. Strong mid bass in a car is the hardest thing to get. What kind of sub box do you have in your car?


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

If you are going to set crossovers on the headunit you need to have your amp set to all pass for your door and rear deck speakers


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hiii..i am having a port tuned enclosure from sundown audio along with the SD 12" SUNDOWN SUB.
even i was thinkin of keeping all pass frequency from 4 channel amp which i am using for my front door compo and rear deck coax but unfortunately i dont have ALL PASS OPTION IN MY BEAT 4 AMP BY RAINBOW


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

This is what i hav got on my beat 4 amp..is thr any way i can keep all pass from here...thanx hifi


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hifi...r u thrr broo....not even one reply from ur side...:neutral_face:


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Turn your hpf all the way down to 25hz assuming you have the crossovers set on headunit. Turn your phase to 0


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

It's boomy because you have a ported enclosure that my quest would be prefab and you have a sub that is really only making noise. You should buy XtremeRevolution sub he is selling. Post a pic of settings on your sub amp


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hii.. HPF to 25hz for both front compos as well as rear deck coax or only for rear coax.
I am using kappa one mono amp for sub and enclosure is also prefabricated


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hifi this is the amp i am using for my sub..settings shown in d pic is exactly the setting i am runin right now apart from bass bost which is on zero
Thanx a million for ur concern and sparing some time for me...
I also want to buy one mini dsp also if u feel its worth for my car


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I meant a pic of of how you have it set up now. A prefab enclosure is like giving an answer before you know the question. A mini dsp is only as good as its user fyi. So unless your willing to obtain a rta and some other acoustic measurement equipment it's no good to you FYI


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Oopss i am sorry hifii...will post pucs shortly and plzz suggest me if atal i have to change any thing..i am ready to pick up new stuff which is require for my car but only thing which scares me is shipping cost if i have to pick it up from you....hifi do u also deal in selling audio stuff...


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanku hifii...really i can feel a lot of change after turning hpf to 25 for door n rear deck speakers...itss much better now...thanx alot bro...u put smile on my face...
Few queries bro...
1.speakers level (-24 to +24)
2.Listening postion
3.Time alignment 
4.where to set13band graphic EQ (i mean super bass, poweful, natural, vocal or coustom)after auto eq is on..
5.crossovers settings from HU..
Thanx alot..


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hii hifiii...i am posting pics of moni amp and enclosure...


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Mono amp:wink:


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Previous one is not so clear so sendin one more


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Getting more curious day by day and belive me i started enjoyin music in my car...with two steps there is some much of improvement imagining what a feel its gona be once its fully done... thankx:+1:


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I would turn your lp up a tiny bit. I would turn up the hp a twitch. Your bass boost typically is the 45hz dB booster which will give the classic car bass sound start to turn it up to achive the response you want. Your enclosure is different than I thought.


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hiii hifii...what about input level..?
And plz tel me how exactly will be the twitch and tiny...can u make it litl easier for me i mean some demarcation becoz litl wrong trun on amp screws up every thing..


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Should i play with input level on mono amp or let it be the way it is


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Setting your gains, read this. I dont feel like typing it all out.

How to Properly Set Your Gains (Gain Tutorial)


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hiiii hiifiii...thanx for d link...i ll go thro it...yaa i wanted to tel u that after tiny increse in LPF and twitching HPF along with d increse in bass bost its amazin to feel the punch n getting chest thump overal sounds clas...i have incresd bass boost 1/4 of tge total bass boost...
So whts the next step for meee....thankxxx bro..really i appreciate:+1:


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Gain done...so whts next for me...parametric eq is troubling me hifiii am posting a pic of EQ set in my car


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

You need an RTA to set eq. You might be able to use a phone app that will help a little more than an untrained ear


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Graphic eq settings...plzz help me to fix up d frequencies


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

drnafees said:


> Graphic eq settings...plzz help me to fix up d frequencies


I wouldnt be able to tell you what to do unless I can see rta (real time analyzer) measurements. It would be a very long task if I were to walk you through these steps especially on this format.


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanx hifii...so RTA has to be done...can u provide me some link how to fix it up through phone app..


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Never done RTA before n dont kno how to do it..


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

common RTA. Its a tool to measure sound. Here is a common RTA.






in the car audio industry.


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hi hifii...bro stuck on rta...can we do it through phone app if so tgen which aap would u recommend me to do rta..thanx alot...


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I dont use any rta apps so I can not recommend them.


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## drnafees (Aug 28, 2015)

Hii hifii Still in search...is thr any software(RTA) for macbook...PLZZ i also want to kno which are the best mid speakers f9r car


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

drnafees said:


> Hii hifii Still in search...is thr any software(RTA) for macbook...PLZZ i also want to kno which are the best mid speakers f9r car


dont look for the best look for something that is very good in a reasonable price range. The best you would be looking at scan speak and accuton which can be big money. I dont know of any software for macbook but I am sure there is. I use DATS but I use that on PC.


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## Sheamus (Dec 7, 2015)

Hi not sure if this has been asked but will these setups work in different cars? All you have to do is change the time alignment on each driver?


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

as long as the component sizes fit in said other vehicle then yes it will. only difference is you will want to spend the time to eq the system, and time align. where thats been done for us and should only take minor tweaking for the cruze


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## Builder Brad (Oct 10, 2012)

Hey Extreme!

I've followed some of your previous recommendations and have installed the following drivers.

The sail panels have been reworked to fit Scanspeak D3004/602000 tweeters. They are more angled towards the listening position than the original factory design. I have managed to do this by removing the front grills and reworking the cars trim panels to keep the oem look.

The midranges are Scanspeak 12M/4631G00 and have been integrated into the door panels factory locations. I have built 1 litre fiberglass enclosures behind these drivers to completely separate them from the midwoofers in the doors.

I have remodeled my doors and added 2 x Scanspeak 18W/4531G00 midwoofers per door. They use the full volume of the door cavity, with dynomat extreme and additional closed cell neoprene foam deadening as well. 

Low frequency drivers : German Maestro SWF8012HEs - not your recommendation, but the best of a limited choice. GermanMAESTRO - Subwoofer-EN these are underseat drive supposedly 10db down at 30hz in the factory enclosure. This was the only option in my new car as I don't have space for 3 x 12 inch drivers, as my boot space now houses a 120 litre LPG tank!

i have just swapped my minidsp 2x8 for one of the new 6x8s, which is specifically designed for in car use. I'm tight on space, so the smaller form factor of the new dsp suited me!
Amps are JL Audio 1 X 450/4v2 and 1x300/4. 

I haven't measured anything yet. Sounds nice already. Just used 24db slopes everywhere, except on the infrasonic which is 10hz 48db. X-over frequencies are 85hz, 300hz and 3500hz.

Pics to follow. Ur going to have to squint quite a bit, as this stuff isn't in a Cruze though.lol.

Will be looking to measure the tweeters, mids and midwoofers first with sweeps to help decide on crossover frequencies.

Brad


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## marine0829 (Dec 25, 2015)

Unless your doors are like completely sealed off I would stay away from mdf rings in the doors, my current setup is PHD 3 ways active on an 80prs (soon to upgrade to 99rs and helix c62c with eton 3 mid range on the a pillar) 2 phd 4060 (soon to be zapco lx) and a single w3 (soon to be ascendant audio chaos) I live in Hawaii and can't compete out here no one really likes sq but on the mainland I used to compete and always stayed away from mdf rings (unless treated with a waterproofing agent) typically I use abs when it comes to rings. Great read though.


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## marine0829 (Dec 25, 2015)

And here are some of the mock up for the drivers on the a pillars and my sail panels I built second picture was testing placement.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

Bump


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## Terryk2003 (Sep 22, 2014)

Thank you for putting this together for us and taking the time to teach this stuff and for pointing me to this thread when i bothered you for advice! I will be starting to make some purchases to put a similar build together in my 2014 Cruze.


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## TheMaterial (Sep 5, 2012)

I'm going to be traveling a ton for work soon and I can finally justify upgrading my system. I have a ton of experience installing and working with name brands stuff. Not so much when it comes to the raw world. 

What would be some good combinations for a great system? I've heard many great things about the two combinations on the first page, but I wondering if there's better or if it's best to stick with the basics. 

I'd also like a 8 or 10" sub-woofer, whatever fits the sound stage best. Again another area where I have a lot of experience with name brand stuff but zero in the raw drivers. Sealed box, and I plan on building something similar to the fiberglass enclosure that's available, this way I can build it to exactly what I need. 

Any suggestions would be great.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

TheMaterial said:


> I'm going to be traveling a ton for work soon and I can finally justify upgrading my system. I have a ton of experience installing and working with name brands stuff. Not so much when it comes to the raw world.
> 
> What would be some good combinations for a great system? I've heard many great things about the two combinations on the first page, but I wondering if there's better or if it's best to stick with the basics.
> 
> ...


There is always better,

however the point of the systems that xtreme has designed is that they are already tuned for the cruze and for the selected drivers via file he has on the initial page.

The question for you is simple. Do you have the equipment to test and take measurements of better drivers and do you have the know how to tune and properly set up different/better drivers through the mini dsp?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

TheMaterial said:


> I'm going to be traveling a ton for work soon and I can finally justify upgrading my system. I have a ton of experience installing and working with name brands stuff. Not so much when it comes to the raw world.
> 
> What would be some good combinations for a great system? I've heard many great things about the two combinations on the first page, but I wondering if there's better or if it's best to stick with the basics.
> 
> ...


The Dayton HO 10 works very well with the fiberglass enclosure that Billseast makes. I'd go with that combination. 

As for the best sound stage, do as hificruzer suggested and refer to the first page of this thread, where two driver combinations, and their measured tunes, are provided for you.


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## TheMaterial (Sep 5, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> There is always better,
> 
> however the point of the systems that xtreme has designed is that they are already tuned for the cruze and for the selected drivers via file he has on the initial page.
> 
> The question for you is simple. Do you have the equipment to test and take measurements of better drivers and do you have the know how to tune and properly set up different/better drivers through the mini dsp?


Yes I have the equipment to properly set up and tune my system. I have just not worked with Raw Drivers. 

I'll hit the books and forums.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

TheMaterial said:


> Yes I have the equipment to properly set up and tune my system. I have just not worked with Raw Drivers.
> 
> I'll hit the books and forums.


I run DATS what are you using? I think xtreme runs REW. 

An RTA,multimeter and a tape measure are enough to set eq, gain and time alignment however you need to measure harmonic distortions to set x-over points.

Seas, scan speak, accuton, morel are all good names. Research on madisound ,parts express and meniscus to find different drivers. Look at the response graphs and ts params to match them and to what you are going to be using them for. There are specific ts params that tell you how a driver will act in different environments. I would highly suggest learning what the ts params mean and how to use them to get what you want.


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## TheMaterial (Sep 5, 2012)

We have an AudioControl SA-3055 i think it is, but I personally can't use it alone, it confuses me and isn't user friendly. 

I've been playing with TrueRTA through an apollo quad pre-amp and a the Behringer ECM8000, although my best friend works for a studio and we are able to rent out almost any microphone you can think of. 

Thank you, I'll check those out and dive into ts params.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

TheMaterial said:


> We have an AudioControl SA-3055 i think it is, but I personally can't use it alone, it confuses me and isn't user friendly.
> 
> I've been playing with TrueRTA through an apollo quad pre-amp and a the Behringer ECM8000, although my best friend works for a studio and we are able to rent out almost any microphone you can think of.
> 
> Thank you, I'll check those out and dive into ts params.


If you are confused by one of the easiest RTAs I would recommend just sticking with the prefab set up xtreme has offered.
The cruze community is lucky to have serious audio people which is super rare in any forum even audio forums.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

However dont let that discourage you from learning more. The more research you do the more research you will wanna do! And ultimately the more you will appreciate a properly set up system and you can use this set up as a good starting point.


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## TheMaterial (Sep 5, 2012)

hificruzer226 said:


> If you are confused by one of the easiest RTAs I would recommend just sticking with the prefab set up xtreme has offered.
> The cruze community is lucky to have serious audio people which is super rare in any forum even audio forums.


REW and TrueRTA are far easier to work with than the SA-3055, because that's what's I learned on. 

I have no issues setting up the dsp, creating my own files, or doing anything along those lines. All I simply wanted to do was save myself hundreds of hours looking through spec sheets finding the best combination. I like asking people with experience what has worked for them, combining there experience and opinion with what I come across and make an overall educated decision based off that. 

I plan on getting into some older Tang spec sheets and I heard AudioFrog was worth checking out. 

Fortunately the people at my new job are as educated as xtreme and yourself, it's the bonus of working for an acoustics and vibrations engineering firm. I do appreciate the information that's been provided though. Everyone brings there own perspective and opinions and it's great for someone like me who likes to absorb information.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

TheMaterial said:


> REW and TrueRTA are far easier to work with than the SA-3055, because that's what's I learned on.
> 
> I have no issues setting up the dsp, creating my own files, or doing anything along those lines. All I simply wanted to do was save myself hundreds of hours looking through spec sheets finding the best combination. I like asking people with experience what has worked for them, combining there experience and opinion with what I come across and make an overall educated decision based off that.
> 
> ...


For me the fun is several hours of research to pick what I want and how I want it to sound and perform.
There are infinite combinations so you will need to set some params to narrow down the choices.

1st Whats your budget? All included.
2nd Whats your limitations? i.e. maintaining factory locations, no cutting into car, SELF(Fab skills) etc 
3rd How do you want it to perform? 
4th How much down time do you have for this project?

The more time you out in to the research the better results you will get. I am constantly looking at fr graphs and ts params of different drivers new and old. It reminds me of when I was a kid and I wanted to know all the stats on every baseball player. However cars took over and than audio.
I can list several different set ups.
I really enjoy scan speak, seas, morel,accuton and several others. So answer those questions and it will make easier on me for what direction to start putting you in


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## Duane Bro (Jun 2, 2016)

Hello, I just bought a 2012 cruze eco last week. The stock radio makes me want to turn it down. It is just bad. I ran across this thread on my search to find how to replace the radio. I decided to keep the factory radio and go with what xtreme has designed. And now have a PAC on the way to start the upgrade. So thank you XR! (Btw, I have been on techtalk for years and attended InDIYana several times).

I do have several questions that I didn't find the answers to in the last 40 pages.

Any install guides? (How did you mount the tweeters?)

Can I run RCA cables from the PAC to the trunk and install the mini dsp there? 

And how long do the RCA cable need to be? Is 12 ft enough?

Thanks,
Duane


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## akrawtsc (Jun 22, 2016)

Not sure if this has been asked here yet, but would you recommend the paper cones over the aluminum in the 180s?


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

XR, great information . I’m learning a lot. I stumbled upon this thread as I searched for info on car audio.
I purchased a 2014 cruze just 2 weeks ago. I think the Chevy Cruze is a very underated car. I would like to do an upgrade to the stereo system, as the stock system in the LS is lacking. Last time I bought a fairly new car was in 2000 & I installed a system at the same time, which I thought was pretty good. Man things have changed since then. Consider me a noobe. I want to keep the factory head unit, install 2 amps that I have & upgrade the speakers. The amps I have are small. One is a Kicker IX402 & the other is an Alpine 3519. I’ve had these amps for years & haven’t put them to use in a very long time. Was looking for your expertise on a few things. I would like to keep the install as simple as possible. I plan on purchasing the speakers you recommended & also the sound deadening. Do you think the factory speaker wiring would be adequate given the low wattage amplifiers? Although the front speaker channels are wired in parallel so that would be an issue. I’m looking for crisp clean sound, not super super loud. Not sure I want a Sub. I never thought it made sense to have a loud obnoxious thumping going down the road like most of the young kids have. Very annoying.
I recently purchased a Pac AA-GM44 LOC just to get a look at the harness. I did not want to use the LOC in this kit. I noticed the wiring to this LOC is just spliced into the harness & still utilizes the factory speaker wires. In other words, the way it is wired, the head unit still feeds directly to the speakers. Not exactly what I expected. I think the Pac unit was designed as a means for adding amps to the system while retaining the factory speaker hook up. Doesn’t make much sense the way the harness is laid out. 
I was looking into DSP’s as I never heard of them before. Apparently these units are the way to go. I have no laptop or any other means to set one up. I was looking at the kicker front stage & the audio control DQ-61. I understand these two do not require a laptop interface to set up & I won’t have to break the bank to own one. I’m leaning towards the DQ-61 from everything I’ve read about it. What I was planning on doing was cutting the wires on the PAC harness & running some 9 wire from the head side to either the Kicker front stage or DQ-61, whichever one I decide on, & then wire up the amps & then more 9 wire back up to the pac harness to feed the speakers through the factory harness. Basically creating one big loop. Does this make sense? Do you see any problems with anything in this set up other than the front channels being wired in parallel? 
I’m sure I’ll have more questions as I continue to research this stuff. Your write ups have been a great inspiration. Thank you for that. 
Rich.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Also, any thoughts on the JBL GTO 19T tweeters for the a pillars? Noticed it specs out at 3 ohms to work well with OEM wiring.

Also will be looking to purchase some door speaker baffles from you as I just received my silver flutes today. You still making those for the cruze? 

Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> XR, great information . I’m learning a lot. I stumbled upon this thread as I searched for info on car audio.
> I purchased a 2014 cruze just 2 weeks ago. I think the Chevy Cruze is a very underated car. I would like to do an upgrade to the stereo system, as the stock system in the LS is lacking. Last time I bought a fairly new car was in 2000 & I installed a system at the same time, which I thought was pretty good. Man things have changed since then. Consider me a noobe. I want to keep the factory head unit, install 2 amps that I have & upgrade the speakers. The amps I have are small. One is a Kicker IX402 & the other is an Alpine 3519. I’ve had these amps for years & haven’t put them to use in a very long time. Was looking for your expertise on a few things. I would like to keep the install as simple as possible. I plan on purchasing the speakers you recommended & also the sound deadening. Do you think the factory speaker wiring would be adequate given the low wattage amplifiers? Although the front speaker channels are wired in parallel so that would be an issue. I’m looking for crisp clean sound, not super super loud. Not sure I want a Sub. I never thought it made sense to have a loud obnoxious thumping going down the road like most of the young kids have. Very annoying.
> I recently purchased a Pac AA-GM44 LOC just to get a look at the harness. I did not want to use the LOC in this kit. I noticed the wiring to this LOC is just spliced into the harness & still utilizes the factory speaker wires. In other words, the way it is wired, the head unit still feeds directly to the speakers. Not exactly what I expected. I think the Pac unit was designed as a means for adding amps to the system while retaining the factory speaker hook up. Doesn’t make much sense the way the harness is laid out.
> I was looking into DSP’s as I never heard of them before. Apparently these units are the way to go. I have no laptop or any other means to set one up. I was looking at the kicker front stage & the audio control DQ-61. I understand these two do not require a laptop interface to set up & I won’t have to break the bank to own one. I’m leaning towards the DQ-61 from everything I’ve read about it. What I was planning on doing was cutting the wires on the PAC harness & running some 9 wire from the head side to either the Kicker front stage or DQ-61, whichever one I decide on, & then wire up the amps & then more 9 wire back up to the pac harness to feed the speakers through the factory harness. Basically creating one big loop. Does this make sense? Do you see any problems with anything in this set up other than the front channels being wired in parallel?
> ...


Factory wiring won't work unless you plan on cutting it right behind the trim inside the car. If you plan to do that, and just splice the rest of the wire to the trunk, that would be fine, but if you're halfway there, may as well run it all the way inside the door. You're only running 18 gauge anyway. 

A subwoofer provides a musical addition to an otherwise thin sounding system. You can only expect so much bass extension from door-mounted 6.5" drivers. You'll realistically get down to 60hz, maybe 55hz, and will be missing the musical range down to ~29hz. Just because it's a sub, doesn't mean it has to be loud. It just has to BE there if you want the full depth of sound. This is why there are smaller, single 8" and single 10" subwoofers. I'd personally recommend that corner mounted fiberglass enclosure with a nice SQ-based 10" sub for a sleek install that adds the low-frequency extension music needs to sound truly full. Don't have to make it loud. 

Yes, the PAC was designed to add functionality to speakers. The benefit here is that you can leave your entire system alone and not splice or cut anything. Simply disconnect the speakers in the doors, ziptie the connectors somewhere inside, and if you ever need to revert your vehicle back to stock form, you can do so without leaving any traces. The only other way to do this is to actually cut wires. 

You can tune a miniDSP off of a desktop computer, but you need at least that much. A laptop simply allows you to make adjustments in-cab. Not all DSPs are created equal, and the miniDSP (that's the actual company name) 2x4 is by a long shot the best value on the market for world-class tuning capability. 

Due to the complexities of tuning each individual driver in-cab, and adjusting for time alignment, a plug-in solution like Kicker or AudioControl's will provide better results than stock but won't even come close to what a miniDSP can do with a good tune. I've already provided that good tune with two sets of affordable drivers. If you don't use the miniDSP, you can't use those drivers, plain and simple. You'll have to go with a passive component set instead of a 2-way fully active front configuration. 

You don't want the front channels being wired in parallel, and your loop idea doesn't really make sense. Here's the signal path you need to take. 

1. Head Unit
2. Line-out converter
3. Processor. You have two options here, with (A), or without (B) active crossover capabilities. 

3A. miniDSP with active crossover (or a MUCH more expensive alternate option that can digitally tune crossover points and slopes)
4A. 4-channel amplifier
5A. speaker wires to each individual driver (two tweeter and two door woofers, for a total of 4 wires). 

3B. Kicker/Audiocontrol processor
4B. 2-channel amplifier
5C. component set with passive crossover 

The whole point of the miniDSP is having the active crossover and being able to tune each specific driver individually. With the two options you listed, you can't do that. 

The AudioControl DQ-61 is $320 on crutchfield. The miniDSP is about $130 to your door including the miniDC. You could buy a miniDSP, AND a refurbished dell Latitude laptop, for the same price, and achieve notably better results at the expense of a worthwhile learning curve.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

XR.
Could you elaborate on tuning the mini DSP with a desktop computer? How is that achieved? Do you remove the DSP from the vehicle & connect it to the desktop PC? WIFi capablty? What software is needed? I really suck at using computers for the most part. With that being said I'm in the market for a new computer as my windows 32 bit vista operating systemis becoming very outdated & giving me trouble. I may decide on a laptop or a smartphone in the very near future. Not sure what fits my needs yet. 

I already purchased the silver flutes. You stated I could not use these speakers/drivers without a DSP. Why is that? Is it because they do not have a crossover built into them? I was under the impression that the Kicker front stage & the DQ 61 were DSP's in their own right. Maybe I misunderstood.
You mentioned 4 channel amplifiers. I have 2, 2 channel amplifiers, as mentioned in the previous post. I assume this is = to the 4 channel amplifier. I'm still not sold on a sub woofer but I am open minded on it. Doesn't make sense to me to have a driver in the trunk when I'm all the way in the front. I understand that low frequency's are hard to pinpoint where their coming from. But then again I'm not well versed on the subject. 

Also, do you still have the MDF baffles available for the silver flutes for the front doors of the Cruze?

Thanks for your input.
Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> XR.
> Could you elaborate on tuning the mini DSP with a desktop computer? How is that achieved? Do you remove the DSP from the vehicle & connect it to the desktop PC? WIFi capablty? What software is needed? I really suck at using computers for the most part. With that being said I'm in the market for a new computer as my windows 32 bit vista operating systemis becoming very outdated & giving me trouble. I may decide on a laptop or a smartphone in the very near future. Not sure what fits my needs yet.
> 
> I already purchased the silver flutes. You stated I could not use these speakers/drivers without a DSP. Why is that? Is it because they do not have a crossover built into them? I was under the impression that the Kicker front stage & the DQ 61 were DSP's in their own right. Maybe I misunderstood.
> ...


The miniDSP is a little circuit board that is connected via USB cable. You need nothing other than a USB cable to power and run it, so you can technically bring it inside to tune it, then plug it back into the car later. The use of quick-disconnect speaker and power terminals for the car makes that easy to do. 

So, check out the first two pages of this thread for more details, but you basically need a crossover. Tweeters shouldn't play low frequencies and woofers shouldn't play high frequencies, for the most part. Car audio oriented component sets, that come with two tweeters and two woofers, also come with two passive crossover boxes that serve that function in a crude, basic manner. The miniDSP has tuning capability that allows one to set the crossover frequency as well as slope very accurately, to perfectly suit the specific driver combination you're using. In order to do this, you need to have two RCA channel inputs (left and right front), and get 4 RCA channel outputs (L/R tweeter, L/R woofer), which are then amplified as individual channels in a 4-channel amplifier. Note, you ALSO need a crossover to separate the low frequency extension you'd get from a subwoofer, from the two front door speakers, but these are usually not as critical and can be achieved with an amplifier's onboard crossover adjustments. 

Now, the term "DSP" simply refers to digital sound processor, or digital signal processor. A DSP doesn't necessarily have active crossover capabilities. The two DSPs you mentioned have comparably primitive equalization capabilities and only high/low pass crossovers for subwoofer duty. They do not handle processing for a fully active front stage (L/R tweeter, L/R woofer). 

Yes, you can use two 2-channel amplifiers or one 4-channel amplifier to power a front stage. 

As for subwoofers, low frequencies travel much farther, and are not limited by direction like higher frequencies are. Think of bass more as pressure. Although all sound is theoretically pressure, a subwoofer's frequency wavelength is MUCH larger than that of a woofer and tweeter and therefore does not need to be facing you in order for you to hear it. In fact, it is very common for home audio subwoofers to be facing the ground. Placing the subwoofer in the trunk is admittedly not the ideal location for it from an acoustic perspective, but it's the only practical location for it given the size an enclosure would require. Where else would you put it? There are some potential subwoofer designs that can fit in the rear doors, but then you're limiting yourself to two 6.5" subwoofers that are installed in a "very leaky box" that will not hold pressure and therefore will not sound good. Given some adequate acoustic treatment on the doors, I'm sure you can manage it, but you still have to contend with the cost of that acoustic treatment and mounting depth limitations. 

For a quick kit, something like this would be appropriate and would meet your needs perfectly. An 8" subwoofer is really not that big. https://www.amazon.com/Package-SWR-...81069942&sr=1-13&keywords=alpine+8"+subwoofer

The alpine 8" kit does not require much power and is quite small in overall size. It is a very underrated subwoofer in the SQ world. 

It would take me a bit of time since the garage needs to be cleaned, but I could make another pair of baffles.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Definitely interested in the baffles. No hurry though. Holidays are coming. Will be a long time before I dive into this project. Too many irons in the fire so to speak. My 97' Lumina, 3.1M engine, I will be diving into very soon. I don't have to tell you about these GM 60 degree v6's & coolant leakes. I really should dump the car but I have a love hate relationship with it. I guess I love to hate it. This will be my 3rd time into this engine. First 2 times were intake gaskets now I have to go deeper & do the head gaskets. She's on borrowed time which is why I bought the Cruze. 

Let me know on the baffles sir. 

Rich


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

So about the DSP unit. If it has 4 channels of output, how does it control a subwoofer if I decide to add one later on with another amp? I see in the miniDSP manual that it does control a subwoofer but I'm not sure I understand how. I would thinkit would require a 5th output for it to be completely separate. How can it control it seperately without the 5th channel? What am I missing in my understanding?

You have convinced me, along with the price, to go the mini DSP way. I realize I need to purchase 3 items. The MiniDSP, the isolator & the advanced plug in. I'm not sure what the plug in is. I assume the plug is needed software & not a physical item. 

This is all brand new to me so there will be a huge learning curve. Hopefully, before this time next year I will have a stellar sound system in my Cruze. I will officially make it my New Years resolution. LOL!

Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> So about the DSP unit. If it has 4 channels of output, how does it control a subwoofer if I decide to add one later on with another amp? I see in the miniDSP manual that it does control a subwoofer but I'm not sure I understand how. I would thinkit would require a 5th output for it to be completely separate. How can it control it seperately without the 5th channel? What am I missing in my understanding?
> 
> You have convinced me, along with the price, to go the mini DSP way. I realize I need to purchase 3 items. The MiniDSP, the isolator & the advanced plug in. I'm not sure what the plug in is. I assume the plug is needed software & not a physical item.
> 
> ...


In my case, I controlled the subwoofer off of the rear channel fade and disconnected the rear speakers (which you'd want to do anyway or it would destroy your sound stage and sound quality). The front/rear fade then controls subwoofer volume. 

Alternately, some amplifiers have an output as well as an input, so you can run the output off of the amplifier you're using on the door speakers into the subwoofer amp and set the gain on it static. This would probably suit your needs best, and you can simply keep the rear speakers disconnected but faded forward when you aren't carrying passengers. 

Another way is to buy the miniDSP 2x8, which gives you 8 output channels, but costs nearly 3x as much. I went with the 2x4. 

The miniDSP is actually just a processing board. The plug-in is the software. You can buy a variety of plug-ins that allow you to do something different with the miniDSP. The 2-way advanced is the one we use for this application. 

It took me a year, between gathering Parts and learning how to use the miniDSP, before I got the results I wanted. Well worth the effort. I have yet to see any audio shop that can get these results without charging 10x more. 

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Ok. So here is where you lost me. I thought that the tweeters in the A pillars were designated as the left & right front channels & the left & right front door speakers were now designated as the rear channels. This would account for the 4 channels. What did I miss? I believe you do not have your front tweeters & front door speakers connected in parallel on the front channels like the factory has it. I'm assuming the MiniDSP only has 4 channels of output. Left & Right, Front & Rear. This is how I'm picturing it. If the door speakers & tweets are connected in parallel on the front channels only, then I don't understand how it would be possible to cross them over independently. But then again I can't see running the sub off the left & right rear channel all by itself. I Would think you only need 1 channel for the sub. Hope I'm making sense. I hope I can do this in less than a years time, but I can certainly understand how it may take that long.

Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> Ok. So here is where you lost me. I thought that the tweeters in the A pillars were designated as the left & right front channels & the left & right front door speakers were now designated as the rear channels. This would account for the 4 channels. What did I miss? I believe you do not have your front tweeters & front door speakers connected in parallel on the front channels like the factory has it. I'm assuming the MiniDSP only has 4 channels of output. Left & Right, Front & Rear. This is how I'm picturing it. If the door speakers & tweets are connected in parallel on the front channels only, then I don't understand how it would be possible to cross them over independently. But then again I can't see running the sub off the left & right rear channel all by itself. I Would think you only need 1 channel for the sub. Hope I'm making sense. I hope I can do this in less than a years time, but I can certainly understand how it may take that long.
> 
> Rich.


Nooooo. The tweeters are wired in parallel to the front door speakers but have a capacitor on them as a high pass 1st order filter. They're basically an extremely cheap component set. The 2 tweeters and 2 woofers up front account for two channels. When factoring in the rear speakers, you have 4 channels coming out of the head unit. 

You take those first two channels and use them as inputs into the miniDSP using a line out converter. 

Then, the miniDSP produces the crossover function, equalization, and time alignment for two tweeters and two woofers wired independently. That's part of the role of the miniDSP; independent driver crossover. If you need more details on how this works, check out my website at xtremerevolution.net and find the four audio 101 articles. 

You can do it in shorter time for sure. I've seen people build it in 3 months, but I waited to accumulate parts and get good deals on everything. 


Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Thank you. I did read your 101 tutorials on your site. Also been reading through the MiniDSP manuals. What I still kind of not understand is how the hi pass & low pass can work with the speakers connected in parallel on the same line with the same signal at the same time. My understanding is the MiniDSP sends the altered signal to the amp and then the amp sends that altered signal to the speakers. If you have 2 speakers, a woofer & a tweeter, on the same line, then both of these speakers will receive the same altered signal. NO? So if that altered signal was altered for the tweeter I don't understand how it can be altered for the woofer at the same time. This is me assuming that the woofer & tweeter on the same line are both unfiltered by a crossover after the amp. I was assuming that there was no crossover on either speaker & that the MiniDSP was performing as an adjustable crossover. 
You mentioned a capacitor.
"Quote : 
"The tweeters are wired in parallel to the front door speakers but have a *capacitor* on them as a high pass 1st order filter." End Quote. 
If the tweeter has a capacitor then I don"t understand how we're able to adjust the crossover point for the tweeter. I'm assuming that the capacitor is the filter/crossover & that it a is fixed & non adjustable point. I know you talked about adjusting the crossover point of the tweeters through the DSP in your install which is why I was assuming there was no physical crossover attached or in line to the tweeters after the amp. 

Wow, my head is spinning.
Grasshoppa want to learn.
Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> Thank you. I did read your 101 tutorials on your site. Also been reading through the MiniDSP manuals. What I still kind of not understand is how the hi pass & low pass can work with the speakers connected in parallel on the same line with the same signal at the same time. My understanding is the MiniDSP sends the altered signal to the amp and then the amp sends that altered signal to the speakers. If you have 2 speakers, a woofer & a tweeter, on the same line, then both of these speakers will receive the same altered signal. NO? So if that altered signal was altered for the tweeter I don't understand how it can be altered for the woofer at the same time. This is me assuming that the woofer & tweeter on the same line are both unfiltered by a crossover after the amp. I was assuming that there was no crossover on either speaker & that the MiniDSP was performing as an adjustable crossover.
> You mentioned a capacitor.
> "Quote :
> "The tweeters are wired in parallel to the front door speakers but have a *capacitor* on them as a high pass 1st order filter." End Quote.
> ...


In Stock form, they are wired in parallel. The tweeter has a capacitor on it which serves as a primitive crossover. The door speaker is run full range. No crossover. 

With the miniDSP, the 4 outputs for each of the 4 individual drivers go to 4 separate amplifier channels. Nothing is wired in parallel there. You have to run 4 speaker wires from the ampifier(s) to the speakers. I

This all assumes that when you install the miniDSP, you install new door speakers, new tweeters, and new wiring. 

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

So in simplest terms. If I disconnect all factory speaker wires at the speakers & run new wiring to each new speaker, front doors & A pillars, from the 4 channel amp then that acounts for all 4 channels. So in this configuration we would be losing the front to rear fade option which we don't want anyways for the front stage, which is the actual goal. *My confusion was lying in the fact that the PAC unit has 4 RCA outputs & the DSP has only 2 RCA inputs*. We will be using only the 2 front RCA outputs from the PAC to the DSP. We leave the 2 rear RCA's from the PAC disconnected. We can always use the rear RCA's from the PAC for future expansion if decided. Think Subwoofer here. I believe this is correct. Correct me if I'm wrong please. Sometimes I overthink things.

I should be ordering the DSP & tweeters soon. 

I know this thread is old. Are you still recommending the vifa tweets? Was wondering if a different tweet has been recommended. The a pillar trims are not too expensive. I may buy a set and modify them with some home brewed pods.

Later,
Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> So in simplest terms. If I disconnect all factory speaker wires at the speakers & run new wiring to each new speaker, front doors & A pillars, from the 4 channel amp then that acounts for all 4 channels. So in this configuration we would be losing the front to rear fade option which we don't want anyways for the front stage, which is the actual goal. *My confusion was lying in the fact that the PAC unit has 4 RCA outputs & the DSP has only 2 RCA inputs*. We will be using only the 2 front RCA outputs from the PAC to the DSP. We leave the 2 rear RCA's from the PAC disconnected. We can always use the rear RCA's from the PAC for future expansion if decided. Think Subwoofer here. I believe this is correct. Correct me if I'm wrong please. Sometimes I overthink things.
> 
> I should be ordering the DSP & tweeters soon.
> 
> ...


Bingo. Now you're getting it. 

The rear channels, I use for subwoofer duty, which allows me to adjust the subwoofer volume by fading between front and rear on the factory radio. 

I really think you should plan for a small 8" subwoofer. You'll definitely notice it missing if you don't and it will add depth of sound while sounding musical and natural, not obnoxious. Bass exists in natural instruments at frequencies you won't be able to play with front speakers. In addition, you'll need to figure out power delivery and run a second set of RCAs to the back for the subwoofer signal so you may as well do it all at once instead of pulling up the trim again when you realize I was right and the sub will add a very nice musical complement to your fantastic front stage. 

For power, you have two options. Either you get a distribution block that allows you to split one 4 gauge cable into three or more 8 gauge cables, or you sell your amps and get a nice 5-channel amp that does everything and forego the distribution block. Really up to you there. 

The vifa tweeters are an amazing value for their price point. I really like them in both home and auto applications. However, the Seas Prestige, for about $50 more on the pair, will give you a better sound stage and will sound smoother. You'll just have to load both miniDSP tunes and pull the values for the drivers you're using so it adds an extra step. I can walk you through all that. 

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Thank you XR.

Can you give recommendations on quality budget friendly RCA (patch) cables & speaker wire. I want absolutely no floor noise or buzzing other than what's in the recordings of the music. As far as wiring it all up I have a good handle on that. I do plan on running extra cables for future expansion. I'm liking your recommendation on a small conservative sub. 

Here's some food for thought. How about 2 front stages? We can create a front sound stage for our rear passengers. We can put some tweets in the back behind the driver & in front of the rear passengers. We can isolate the back from the front with some sound barrier. Think plexi glass here. Just kidding. 
Thanks.
Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> Thank you XR.
> 
> Can you give recommendations on quality budget friendly RCA (patch) cables & speaker wire. I want absolutely no floor noise or buzzing other than what's in the recordings of the music. As far as wiring it all up I have a good handle on that. I do plan on running extra cables for future expansion. I'm liking your recommendation on a small conservative sub.
> 
> ...


My "go-to" place for buying all cables has been KnuKonceptz - Home and Mobile audio accessories, including amp installation kits and speaker wire

I would start with an amplifier wiring kit and add any additional RCAs you need from there. Be sure to run their OFC (oxygen-free copper) cable, not their CCA (copper-clad aluminum). CCA does not hold as much current unless you go two sizes up (4 gauge copper is about equal to 1/0 gauge CCA). One single run of 4 gauge will be plenty for you.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Any problem with running their kits with the Bassik RCA's? Their higher end kits, such as the KFX-AKF4-4 and the other KFX kits are out of stock. Looks like they've been out of stock for a couple years judging by the expected delivery date. My guess is they're discontinued. The available in stock cheaper kits only come with the Bassik RCA's. Possibly could purchase the better RCA's seperate.
Any thoughts on this?

Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> Any problem with running their kits with the Bassik RCA's? Their higher end kits, such as the KFX-AKF4-4 and the other KFX kits are out of stock. Looks like they've been out of stock for a couple years judging by the expected delivery date. My guess is they're discontinued. The available in stock cheaper kits only come with the Bassik RCA's. Possibly could purchase the better RCA's seperate.
> Any thoughts on this?
> 
> Rich.


I haven't used their RCAs for a while. I would just piece together the kit as you see fit. You'll need approximately 17 feet of red power cable, 6 feet of ground, three RCA pairs, a fuseblock, and, depending on how you plan to amplify the whole system, a couple of distribution blocks and 8-gauge cables. 

If you run 3 amps, you'll need 6 lengths of 8 gauge (3 red, 3 black), for power and ground, and 2 distribution blocks. This is one of the reasons I recommended selling those amps and getting a good 5-channel; it greatly simplifies power wiring. 

You'll need a single fuse block for the power run to prevent an electrical fire in the event of a collision. You'll also need a length (about 20 feet), of remote wire (a single, usually blue wire), as well as some generic 16 or 18 gauge wire to power the miniDSP and miniDC. 

I would also grab a couple of 4-gauge closed terminals. I believe they sell some with an allen wrench screw on it. Don't forget the loctite for that screw.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Any thoughts on mounting the Mini DSP out back in the trunk near the amps for easier access when tuning? I usually mount my amps & power junction block on a nice piece of finished oak board and secure it to the trunk floor. Locating the Mini Dsp out back would also change the cable length requirements. Not sure if one way would be better than the other. Just looking for ideas as I may try something different. Would rather not have to pull the interior to access the MiniDSP if possible. Possibly mount everything to the underside of the rear shelf to retain trunk space. Any good source for pictures of installs in the Cruze? I haven't really looked at my cruze much since I bought it. Been very busy. Had it for about month now & barely put 400 miles on it so far. It's too nice to be driving it around here right now with the snow & salt. Milking the Lumina for all it's worth right now with the crappy snowy weather. Lumina registration & inspection expires the end of this month & the engine will be coming apart. The Cruze will start to see regular duty soon. 

Rich.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Also, any brands of RCA cables to avoid? I see many different brands. I will stay with OFC wire for sure. I see Amazon sells a lot. There is a very inexpensive brand ,"Kabeldirect", that looks good on paper & also in the pictures. Any info on those? Just trying to avoid buying a headache down the road. 

Rich.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> Any thoughts on mounting the Mini DSP out back in the trunk near the amps for easier access when tuning? I usually mount my amps & power junction block on a nice piece of finished oak board and secure it to the trunk floor. Locating the Mini Dsp out back would also change the cable length requirements. Not sure if one way would be better than the other. Just looking for ideas as I may try something different. Would rather not have to pull the interior to access the MiniDSP if possible. Possibly mount everything to the underside of the rear shelf to retain trunk space. Any good source for pictures of installs in the Cruze? I haven't really looked at my cruze much since I bought it. Been very busy. Had it for about month now & barely put 400 miles on it so far. It's too nice to be driving it around here right now with the snow & salt. Milking the Lumina for all it's worth right now with the crappy snowy weather. Lumina registration & inspection expires the end of this month & the engine will be coming apart. The Cruze will start to see regular duty soon.
> 
> Rich.


The nice thing about the miniDSP is that you can hook up a laptop and adjust any tuning parameters you want to on the fly. Put it near the trunk, and you have to run a longer USB cable out to the front when you need to make adjustments. It ultimately doesn't matter where you put it, to be honest. I mounted it low in the dash and ran the USB cable around the back and rolled it up into the map holder. 

I didn't take many pictures during the actual install. 



grtpumpkin said:


> Also, any brands of RCA cables to avoid? I see many different brands. I will stay with OFC wire for sure. I see Amazon sells a lot. There is a very inexpensive brand ,"Kabeldirect", that looks good on paper & also in the pictures. Any info on those? Just trying to avoid buying a headache down the road.
> 
> Rich.


No clue on brands or brands to avoid. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for. Go with twisted pair, shielded cable. I just used some cheap cables I had lying around from some home theater installs since I was on a tight budget on the initial install. I have some good replacement cables needing to go in, but haven't had the time to install them.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

XR

Been gathering items. Still a long way to go. 
I received my minidsp & isolator from Madisound. It comes with a coupon code for the plug in. It will be a long while before my install. Do you know if there is an expiration on that code? Would it be beneficial to download it to my current windows Vista 32 bit computer now, before the install takes place, & use it later, if that's at all possible ,or should I just wait? I also just received an android smartphone for Christmas. Would that give me options for this application? I also tried downloading, to windows vista, your xml files for the speakers. This does nothing but show a massive amount of text lines. It's crazy. Is this because I have not downloaded the plug in program yet? Sorry for all the questions. Not computer savvy at all. 

R-


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> XR
> 
> Been gathering items. Still a long way to go.
> I received my minidsp & isolator from Madisound. It comes with a coupon code for the plug in. It will be a long while before my install. Do you know if there is an expiration on that code? Would it be beneficial to download it to my current windows Vista 32 bit computer now, before the install takes place, & use it later, if that's at all possible ,or should I just wait? I also just received an android smartphone for Christmas. Would that give me options for this application? I also tried downloading, to windows vista, your xml files for the speakers. This does nothing but show a massive amount of text lines. It's crazy. Is this because I have not downloaded the plug in program yet? Sorry for all the questions. Not computer savvy at all.
> ...


You need the plug-in to view my tune files. My recommendation is to download the plug-in, load up the tune file, and record the values. I've noticed a few people had issues directly installing my tune file in the past due to updated versions of the miniDSP. 

I would download the tune now, and get familiar with it. Channels are as follows:

4: driver tweeter
3: driver woofer
2: passenger tweeter
1: passenger woofer

You should be able to re-download the plug-in from the miniDSP site with your account once you order the plug-in. 

Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Thanks.

I'll play around with it. 

Pulling the cylinder heads off the Lumina 3.1M tomorrow. Fingers crossed. :uhh:

Happy New Year!

R-


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Successfully loaded the plug in to my PC. 
I have no clue what to do next. I can open your xml tune file on my pc by clicking on the link. It only opens in my web browser in a separate tab. There is no option to do anything else with it. I get this message when opening the file. 
"This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below."
The document tree is very extensive. What is the process to load this into the plug in?
I think I may have figured it out.
Please correct me if any of this is wrong. 
On the system settings tab in the plug in program, there is a load button. I clicked on the load button and opened the file from the downloads folder where the file was automatically saved to my pc. Took a while to find it, but it appears the file was successfully loaded into the program. 

Feel like I'm in way over my head with this. Been searching for a tutorial on this plug in software as I have no idea where to even begin. Should be a fun process ounce I get the basics down.

Happy New Year! artytime:


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Pick from one combo. The tune files are published for both, for the Cruze with the stock head unit.
> 
> Either the Silver Flute/Vifa combo or for a little bit more, the Dayton/Seas combo. Both will destroy anything with a car audio label at 3x their price.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


XR,

I just finished reading the entire 43 pages (and am in the process of re-reading them) and have a simple question. When you say "stock head unit" are you referring to any Cruze stock HU or the one in your car? 

I have an LT without the display/Nav stuff but was considering looking for a junk-yard find to upgrade as I need at least a display for my front and rear cameras and navigation would be nice.

I guess I have one more question. Do you (or anyone else who wishes to chime in) have a recommendation for an upgraded HU that will fit in with the rest of your suggestions throughout this thread?

Thanks for makin' my head spin:dizzy:

Robert


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Blasirl said:


> XR,
> 
> I just finished reading the entire 43 pages (and am in the process of re-reading them) and have a simple question. When you say "stock head unit" are you referring to any Cruze stock HU or the one in your car?
> 
> ...


Stock head unit simply refers to the head unit installed by GM. Stock = OEM. 

Any head unit will fit, provided you buy the correct factory integration modules and dash trim. Double-din head units look best.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> Successfully loaded the plug in to my PC.
> I have no clue what to do next. I can open your xml tune file on my pc by clicking on the link. It only opens in my web browser in a separate tab. There is no option to do anything else with it. I get this message when opening the file.
> "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below."
> The document tree is very extensive. What is the process to load this into the plug in?
> ...


Yep, the load button is what you should use. Once you do that, it loads up my settings, and you can see all of the values I've set. You should see adjustments for equalizer, crossover, and time alignment. If you do, you're on the right track.


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## kevinng (Jan 9, 2017)

Firstly I want to say thank you very much to XtremeRevolution! I learned alot by reading all your post from thread v1.


So I decied to removed the passive crosover (at 5khz) in my set Kenwood KFC-P709PS 6-1/2" and wired in a 4 channel amp with a minidsp.


The tweeters response are quite ok but the woofer's response fluctuate so much and lost after 1.5Khz.


Its might be due to my bad installation so I'm looking for some advice/guide to verify it. Maybe I'm missing something.


Minidsp to cross at: 60hz-5khz for woofer & 3khz for tweeter.


Mic: UMIK-1 Amp Alpine MRP-F300: channel 1&2 for tweeters, 3&4 for woofer.


Inputs for minidsp come from pac-aoem-maz2 I adjusted pac-aoem-maz2 to out at ~2V (measured by DMM at 50hz) and set minidsp at 2V RMS input.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

kevinng said:


> Firstly I want to say thank you very much to XtremeRevolution! I learned alot by reading all your post from thread v1.
> 
> 
> So I decied to removed the passive crosover (at 5khz) in my set Kenwood KFC-P709PS 6-1/2" and wired in a 4 channel amp with a minidsp.
> ...


Are you taking that measurement as a summed response of both left and right channels? 

Have you configured time alignment yet? 

Have you taken a 3rd order harmonic distortion measurement for that tweeter to determine an optimal crossover point? 

By the way, that hump at 4400hz must be killing you. That would hurt my ears.


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## kevinng (Jan 9, 2017)

Its for left channel only. I configured time alignment already. My car is different: 2 tweeters in the dash.
Left & Right tweeter 1.10399 ms & 0 ms
Left & Right woofer 1.10399 ms 0.12498

Anyway, I took several measurement and I tried to eq but not sure if I'm on the right way.

Do you still keep the frequency response? Mine seems having too much fluctuations.















































XtremeRevolution said:


> Are you taking that measurement as a summed response of both left and right channels?
> 
> Have you configured time alignment yet?
> 
> ...


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## kevinng (Jan 9, 2017)

Can I replace Vifa tweeter by Hi Vi K1 as its on sale at around 12$/pair


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

kevinng said:


> Can I replace Vifa tweeter by Hi Vi K1 as its on sale at around 12$/pair
> 
> View attachment 217930


You can replace it with whatever you want, but you're doing all the tuning for it yourself and figuring out the crossover point on your own. The same tuning won't apply anymore.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

kevinng said:


> Its for left channel only. I configured time alignment already. My car is different: 2 tweeters in the dash.
> Left & Right tweeter 1.10399 ms & 0 ms
> Left & Right woofer 1.10399 ms 0.12498
> 
> ...


You've got some nasty 3rd order harmonic distortion at 2500hz on the left tweeter with a crossover of 2250. The chart crossed at 2500 looks good. I wouldn't cross any higher. 

Send me a frequency response of just the woofer on the left. It looks to me like you're crossing it too low. 

Note, when I took the measurements for the left or right, I held the microphone up right at my ear, as that's where I'd be listening. 

You've got a pretty big boost in the 3k-4.5k range, which I think is caused by boundary loading in the dash. I'd use a shelf function in miniDSP to tone that down a bit, then move the woofer crossover a little closer to the tweeter.


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## kevinng (Jan 9, 2017)

The mic was next headrest which is exactly same as your instruction.

The woofer's response looks so bad and completely downs after 1k Hz although the xover was 60Hz - 5k Hz. It fluctuates so much in between which I believe could be corrected after well deadening the doors.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

See if you can apply a shelf filter to raise the woofer above that range. That may be due mostly to the fact that they're off-axis. How does the right woofer measure?

The fluctuations are due in part to cancelation. It's not exactly an ideal acoustic environment. You will always have a dip at around 150 and 500 depending on your internal dimensions. Nothing you can do about it. 

Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


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## kevinng (Jan 9, 2017)

*2*

I did some test as your recommendation:
1. Right (Woofer+Tweeter) xover (60-3k, 2.5k-20k) w/o EQ
2. Left (Woofer+Tweeter) xover (60-3k, 2.5k-20k)
3. Distortion Left (Woofer+Tweeter) xover (60-3k, 2.5k-20k) wo EQ
4. Distortion Right (Woofer+Tweeter) xover (60-3k, 2.5k-20k) wo EQ
5. Left Woofer Xover (60-3k) with some EQ using high shelf function


So my questions are:

1. If I upgrade to your recommend sets (vifa + silver flute), will it be better? Didn't see any measurement for comparison.
2. I have some ambient noise at 30- 60Hz +30dB (see pic 1 & 2), will sound deadening fix it?
3. The last picture is what I get when playing around with EQ, is it acceptable?

Thank you very much for your time!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

It looks like you still need a shelf function applied to both the tweeter and woofer. Did you apply those yet? Your tweeter is way too hot at 3000-4000hz on the right side. 

Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


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## jjsimmers (Jun 1, 2016)

Would it better to have 2 separate 2 channel amps to lower power going to tweeters and have more going to woofers? Would tune still be the same? I was thinking of going with the Dayton/Seas and Planet Audio AC600.2 ANARCHY 600-Watt Full Range Class A/B 2 to 8 Ohm Stable 2 Channel Amplifier  for seas while using Planet Audio AC1200.2 ANARCHY 1200-Watt Full Range Class A/B 2 to 8 Ohm Stable 2 Channel Amplifier with Remote Subwoofer Level Control for the daytons.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jjsimmers said:


> Would it better to have 2 separate 2 channel amps to lower power going to tweeters and have more going to woofers? Would tune still be the same? I was thinking of going with the Dayton/Seas and Planet Audio AC600.2 ANARCHY 600-Watt Full Range Class A/B 2 to 8 Ohm Stable 2 Channel Amplifier  for seas while using Planet Audio AC1200.2 ANARCHY 1200-Watt Full Range Class A/B 2 to 8 Ohm Stable 2 Channel Amplifier with Remote Subwoofer Level Control for the daytons.


Only reason to do so would be for cost purposes. The tweeter will only take as much power as you feed it using volume and frequency range. You'll be unlikely to give them more than 10W apiece even at very loud volumes. They just don't need much power. The tune will be the same, you'll have to adjust gains like you would on any other amp.


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## jjsimmers (Jun 1, 2016)

> Only reason to do so would be for cost purposes. The tweeter will only take as much power as you feed it using volume and frequency range. You'll be unlikely to give them more than 10W apiece even at very loud volumes. They just don't need much power. The tune will be the same, you'll have to adjust gains like you would on any other amp.


So thisPlanet Audio AC1200.4 ANARCHY 1200-Watt Full Range Class A/B 2 to 8 Ohm Stable 4 Channel Amplifier 
would be fine and save $$$ with no concerns for wattage going to tweeters?

And HUGE thank you for all you knowledge and assistance!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jjsimmers said:


> So thisPlanet Audio AC1200.4 ANARCHY 1200-Watt Full Range Class A/B 2 to 8 Ohm Stable 4 Channel Amplifier
> would be fine and save $$$ with no concerns for wattage going to tweeters?
> 
> And HUGE thank you for all you knowledge and assistance!


Yeah you'd be fine if you think it's a quality amp. Your tweeters will only get as much power as is needed to play at the volume you're commanding. You'll know you hit their limit due to distortion long before you overpower them. 

Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


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## cmarkwart (Aug 26, 2012)

I have one new in box never used Crossover: miniDSP


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## JerryGash (May 5, 2017)

I just brought home a 2015 Cruze LTZ and have been wanting to do a miniDSP build forever. It looks like I have found the right thread. I'm going to start ordering components now!

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk


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## flex014 (Jun 14, 2017)

Do you guys have suggestions for a great match for a subwoofer with the dayton/seas combination? I Currently have a jl h.o. Wedge ho110-w6v3 that I got a fantastic deal from a buddy who needed to get rid of it a year or two ago. I had it in my old grand Cherokee (which is on its last legs) which had tons of room in the back but I'm weary of using it in the Cruze due to the sheer size of it, honestly I haven't even tried to check to see if it fits yet. It always sounded great to me, but it was the first subwoofer I ever owned. I'm considering selling it if there's a better match for this system. All I know for sure is if I'm spending money on a sub I want to definitely know it's there, but at the same time I don't want to kill my trunk space. I've looked at the custom fiberglass enclosure in the drivers side pocket which is a 10 inch max. But if there's a small enough box for a bigger sub that would complement my future setup much better then I'm very open to ideas. I also own a Jbl gto-751ez mono amp but if that's not sufficient I could sell that as well. I'm still not sure of the reputation of the JBL amps, I've read good reviews on them but that's just from a general community, not an audiophile community. I also have a JBL 804-ez that (I think) would work for the Dayton/Seabs 4 channel setup. Any thoughts are really appreciated guys. Ive read every single post of v1 and v2 of this thread and I really feel like I'm learning as I go here. It's exciting!


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## Nightmistx22 (Mar 30, 2017)

Flex, 

I would suggest reading up on some of XR's subwoofer threads. Several have followed the Cone Area is King approach ( dual 18's infinite baffle) to get the most out of the lower frequencies without killing trunk space. 

I will be starting with my 10" JBL P1022 sub in a fiberglass box meant for the passenger side cubby of an RX8 that I use to own. I am considering doing that dual 18" sub build.


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## flex014 (Jun 14, 2017)

Nightmistx22 said:


> Flex,
> 
> I would suggest reading up on some of XR's subwoofer threads. Several have followed the Cone Area is King approach ( dual 18's infinite baffle) to get the most out of the lower frequencies without killing trunk space.
> 
> I will be starting with my 10" JBL P1022 sub in a fiberglass box meant for the passenger side cubby of an RX8 that I use to own. I am considering doing that dual 18" sub build.


Thanks! I'll check it out
that is insane/awesome, but way too advanced for me haha


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## flex014 (Jun 14, 2017)

Just figured I would throw this in here since it is mentioned as part of the build: I ordered some products from sounddeadenershowdown and the customer service was excellent. I unknowingly made a mistake with the quantities and I received an email that day verifying that I was sure in my quantities for each product. I told him what I was planning on doing and he replied very quickly with dimensions for my doors, and how much of what I would need. He updated the quantities and saved me $40. Received the shipment and the stuff looks very high quality. Will update when I get a chance to actually install everything. Very pleased so far.


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## Nightmistx22 (Mar 30, 2017)

I agree 100%. My experience with SDS was exceptional. I told them what my build plan was and they were able to help me adjust my quantities accordingly. They were also able to save me nearly $20 on shipping by combining everything into a single box. They were also very prompt with any questions I had. Highly recommend them for anyone doing anything with sound deadening.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

How much will it affect the tune if we installed the tweeters more on axis via some custom integrated pillar pods in the same location? I'm sure the original tune is tuned with the reflections of the windshield.
R-


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

You're correct. The original tune is set to compensate for the off axis alignment. If you put the tweeters in pods, you'll need to re tune the tweeters. 

Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

This is kind of what I was referring to for pods but utilizing the 1 set of viffa tweetes without the added tweets on the mirror cover. How much trouble would it be to tune them in on axis like this? Need to get a mic & RTA? 
Just wanted to post this as I think this is a really sweet install on the pods. Looks very clean. 

Link to pod install. 
Chevy Cruze A-Pillar Build - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

R-


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> This is kind of what I was referring to for pods but utilizing the 1 set of viffa tweetes without the added tweets on the mirror cover. How much trouble would it be to tune them in on axis like this? Need to get a mic & RTA?
> Just wanted to post this as I think this is a really sweet install on the pods. Looks very clean.
> 
> Link to pod install.
> ...


Yeah you'd need a complete measurement setup to accurately tune those.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Now that the baffles are on the way, I will be getting much closer to starting my install. I will be doing the big 3 upgade as well. I saw no mention of a capacitor in all the reading in both SQ install threads. Is a capacitor not really necessary? I will be running the Alpine 8" inch type R sub. Still searching for an AMP for this Sub. Not sure if I should stick with a class AB amp or go to a class D amp. Biggest concern is clean accurate sound. Class D seems to be the most popular for subs, for obvious reasons, but is it the best for sound quality. Still learning.
R-


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

umpkin:


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

grtpumpkin said:


> Now that the baffles are on the way, I will be getting much closer to starting my install. I will be doing the big 3 upgade as well. I saw no mention of a capacitor in all the reading in both SQ install threads. Is a capacitor not really necessary? I will be running the Alpine 8" inch type R sub. Still searching for an AMP for this Sub. Not sure if I should stick with a class AB amp or go to a class D amp. Biggest concern is clean accurate sound. Class D seems to be the most popular for subs, for obvious reasons, but is it the best for sound quality. Still learning.
> R-


The capacitor is not needed. Caps are generally just bandaids for weak electrical systems, which you are addressing with the big 3 kit. You won't really notice a difference in sound between a class AB and a class D amp for bass, so grab a good CEA rated amp that produces at or over the power level you need and you'll be fine.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Got baffles today. :th_dblthumb2::th_dblthumb2: Very nice! Thank you.
This will be a very meticulous install for me. :hellno: hacking allowed. 
This may seem like a trivial question. As i have no experience with MDF, should a pilot hole be drilled for the six screws mounting the speaker to the baffle? I'm under the impression that MDF is not very durable and I want to insure that the screws anchor in nice & strong without splitting the material or being too loose & having the speakers come loose over time with repeated door closings.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Yes, pilot holes are needed for the speaker mounting screws. MDF is pretty strong and dead but it will separate if you're not careful. I included coarse thread screws so you can drill a small pilot hole. Once you do, they'll never come out. 

Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Looking at different amplifier options, what affect will it have on the front stage if we used a lower wattage rating amp, say 20-30 watts rms for the tweets, and a higher rated amp on the silverflutes? Would this need to be adjusted for in the DSP Tune?
I understand the tweets don't need a lot of power. What is the RMS rating on the silver flutes? All I can find listed is 80 watts but that doesn't specify RMS or MAX.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

No effect at all. I used a 25W per channel coustic power logic amp (made in 1992) for a while on my tweeters and they were fine. No adjustment needed. 

RMS on the silver flutes is probably around 50W. 

Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


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## SCruze (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm starting to think that the Factory headunit doesn't give out enough Volt to even consider adding an Aftermarket amp or Speakers, I've gone that route and my Sound quality at moderate to high volumes has dropped significantly. All I'm hearing is High pitched sounds from tweeter and somewhat low quality thin sounding Mids from the woofers.

The technician said its mostly my Factory Headunit, which is underpowered for such setup. Adding an amp , speakers and sub has done very little to change the SQ.

I've also created a new thread and would like someone to help me here: http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/36-g...ity-dropped-aftermarket-amp-speakers-sub.html


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

For those of you that used the mini DC isolator, how did you physically mount it? Make a box or housing for it or just wrap in something like electrical tape? I don't see a housing available for purchase for it.


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## geiser (May 18, 2014)

I am buying : 
https://www.parts-express.com/plastic-utility-case-w-mounting-tabs-323-x-211-x-118--320-490


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

I purchased something similar.

Here are 2 pictures of it mounted in the box and the box mounted to the dash's metal frame behind the glove box. The lid is not installed in these pictures. It has a snap on lid/cover.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

SCruze
I began to think the same thing about the stock head unit. I installed everything and triple checked all my wiring. Sounded like crap. Messed with the amp gains and swapping cables. Nothing improved the sound. Turning the volume up just sounded horrible. I mean really bad. What I came to find out was that I made a huge error. I thought I installed the tune file into the DSP when in actuality I didn't. I got the message from the software stating the file loaded successfully. When I got this message I assumed it was installed on the minidsp. I read through the manual a little more carefully and found my error. Consequently I damaged a Tweeter in the process. Once sorted out it sounds pretty good. Plenty of power and clarity. This may have been your issue as well???? I find the DSP stuff to be very confusing.

Sent from my Z717VL using Tapatalk


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm up to 104 hours of install time, got my DSP issues sorted out, Sub installed, gains all adjusted, interior mostly back together and I finally got to really listen to it. Well, all I can say is, Amazing. Yes, it's that good. Thank you very much MR. Xtreme. All that is left is to finish up all the sound deadening and mount the amp shelf under the rear deck. I'm stoked. I can safely drive it now that most of it is back together. Probably another 50 hours or so should do it. This has been a huge job and the end result is well worth it. :th_dblthumb2:

Rich.


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## tarlyncladdath (Apr 10, 2019)

What a great thread even tho its quite old now but stills seems relevant to Gen 1 cars. I actually have a 2018 Holden Astra Sedan down in Melbourne Australia but its a rebadged Chevy Cruze.....its the 6 speaker setup...non-amplified so have the dash, front, and rear doors.

Is there anything setup like this for Gen 2 cars or are they close enough to each other that this will work fine for a Gen 2 car?

Shipping things to Australia is another matter but one problem at a time 

Thanks!


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## Capow (Mar 23, 2018)

If anyone is looking to do this upgrade to their Cruze I have a full set-up available. I'm selling my car and just pulled it all out yesterday.


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## eddiefromcali (Aug 21, 2017)

Capow said:


> If anyone is looking to do this upgrade to their Cruze I have a full set-up available. I'm selling my car and just pulled it all out yesterday.


what all do you have and how much?


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## Capow (Mar 23, 2018)

eddiefromcali said:


> what all do you have and how much?


I have the dayton/seas setup with everything needed to make them work. 
I have a for sale thread here:








Closed - Dayton RS180/Seas Presitge & miniDSP


I have a used "Mid Level" stereo upgrade setup from "The SQ Car Audio Thread V2" Almost everything needed for the full setup is here, you will just need speaker wire and standoffs for the woofers. It's been in my car for the past year, everything still works perfectly but I am selling my car...




www.cruzetalk.com


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Looking for some insight and understanding of the shelf filter. Hopefully Andrea will chime in. I've had my viffa /silverflute system installed for just over a year now. One thing that's really bugging me as of late is the overpowering of most vocals and guitars at louder volumes. At louder volumes they can be very fatiguing and sometimes they just downright hurt. When I say louder volumes I'm talking levels just under half volume, such as #21 & 22. This is mostly noticeable on CD's and not so much radio stations. I do notice that all radio stations sound pretty boomy ( bass heavy) compared to CD's. I've verified the tone controls are all set to flat. Even tried reducing the mid range on the head unit and found it doesn't help. Noticed the radio and cd sources have independent tone controls and made sure all were set to flat. I sometimes wonder if the factory head unit is altering frequencies as the volume is increased. In trying to keep this from being too long winded on my part I'll keep this specifically to the shelf filter. I started re reading the SQ version 2 thread and noticed the mention of the shelf filter as a must to tone down the offensiveness of the said frequencies. I copied and pasted the info below. So looking at the tune file there is a low shelf filter applied to both tweeters. The right is set at 4500hz with a gain of -2db and a Q of 2. The left tweeter is set to 3500hz with a gain of -3.2db and a Q of 2 also.
Trying to understand all this processing stuff generates many questions. 
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. 

Here is the copied and pasted info from back in 2014: 


> "Blue Angel said:
> Is this what's responsible for the horrible screeching of the stock system? I wasn't sure if it might be a breakup mode of the door woofers, but this would make sense. Some songs that have prominent notes in just the right places are pretty much unlistenable at high volume.


Yep.

In speaker design, we call it baffle diffraction. With software, I can simulate the frequency response of a linear driver on a rectangular plane based on the driver's location on that plane. Any frequency with a wavelength larger than the dimension of that baffle will begin to drop in output. In open space, the end result will be a -6db drop in output in the lower frequencies. The only way to maintain a completely flat frequency response with a perfect driver is to create an infinite baffle. Any frequencies with a wavelength larger than the baffle begin to wrap around the speaker and do not get reflected toward you, but toward other parts of the room. Conversely, when a driver is mounted inside a horn, all frequencies larger than the width of the horn walls are amplified.

That being said, the situation changes a bit once you start horn loading drivers. Consider what frequencies reflect off of surfaces surrounding their pillar mounts based on the wavelength of those frequencies.

3000hz for example has a wavelength of 4.5". Since the wavelength originates from the center of the driver, 1/2 of that becomes 2.25", which is awfully close to the distance from the center of the tweeter and the dash. The windshield is even closer, where we find a 4000hz wavelength of 3.4". You will find the most offensive frequencies in this car to be 2500-4000hz, all of which can be traced back with a ruler to horn loaded corners surrounding the tweeters. Since those frequencies are amplified due to environmental anomalies, they need to be tuned down by an order of 3-5db.

If you remember listening to my car, there was nearly a complete lack of listening fatigue at loud volumes with any music. Nothing causes ear-piercing discomfort because all of these anomalies are accounted for in my tune and the tunes published in the first page.

Back on topic, do these notes happen to be certain electric guitars, harmonicas, and female voices? If so, that's precisely the range we're referring to. It certainly is of no help that the tweeter has a very basic 1st order crossover slope at 6db/octave. An additional inductor would do a world of good, but would also drastically increase the cost of the system from a production perspective. Copper isn't cheap. "


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

grtpumpkin said:


> I sometimes wonder if the factory head unit is altering frequencies as the volume is increased.


I'd expect it to. Do a search on "Fletcher–Munson curve". 

Something you might try is turning down your amp so you have to turn up the head unit. That will make the head unit use a different curve - hopefully something more appropriate for the volume you've got.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Is there an actual way to test the head unit for a frequency curve to see what it's doing at various volume levels? I have heard of bass roll off in factory head units for protection of the speakers at high volumes but have no idea if its a myth or not. I'm using an LC2i for my line out converter and have it set for no bass rolloff. Assuming my cruze does not have bass roll off. If it does it must be very subtle. Would be nice to actually know what's going on with these things. I did reduce the gain on my amp and noticed no change. All that did was require a higher volume number. This is where I feel a small change in the tune file settings might be what is actually needed for my actual Cruze. I may just have to hook up my lap top and start playing around.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm sure you can find a MP3 file of "white noise" all frequencies at the same level. However, you'd need something to view the results.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

How about a pink noise generator from a home stereo system?


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Blasirl said:


> How about a pink noise generator from a home stereo system?


I do have a couple test tone cd's with pink and white noise tracks. Haven't got around to purchasing a measurement mic yet, but it is on my bucket list. Learning how to use it along with the software is another thing. I did play around with the gains on the tweeter channels some more and am getting better results, but it does require a higher volume number. Still some vocals and guitars can be fatiguing. How would pink noise reveal if there is a frequency curve and if the head unit is altering frequencies with a volume increase? I get that the tune file was probably created at a certain volume level that it sounds best at but what is that volume level? Andrei is probably the only one that can answer that one. I would like to believe that the head unit provides a flat curve throughout the entire volume range but I doubt it does and just don't understand how to test for it.


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## plano-doug (Jul 1, 2015)

grtpumpkin said:


> How would pink noise reveal if there is a frequency curve and if the head unit is altering frequencies with a volume increase?


As I recall, pink noise is white noise with some filtering applied. With white noise, I believe you have constant amplitude over the frequency range of interest, usually 20-20,000 Hz for high fidelity audio.

You would connect a spectrum analyzer to the speaker output with all tone controls (ie, graphic eq) set flat. The spectrum analyzer will run an FFT on the white noise, and the output would, ideally, be something like what's in the pic. (Technically, the FFT output will be discrete frequencies, rather than continuous, as shown, but I'm not gonna re-draw it now. )










I'm not sure how the change to pink will affect it.

The limitation you will have with the signal source on a CD is that you cannot control the input level - it's fixed on the CD.

A more typical test would be to supply a signal to the radio, using the aux-in for example. In my limited audio experience, we used a Rohde-Schwarz audio analyzer called a UPV.

For measuring gain over frequency, it will supply the stimulus signal, and sweep it over the frequency range of interest. For each frequency step, it will measure the output power lever and calculate and plot the gain. Gain A = Pout/Pin (= Vout^2/Vin^2) . For that, you will need a test load, such as a 100+ watt 4 ohm resistor. (2 or more if testing multiple channels.)

To see what it's doing with increasing output level, I envision running multiple sweeps at progressively higher volume settings. You will get multiple curves, and stack them on top of each other.

I hacked a quick and dirty look at what you might see for first (black) and later/last (red) measurements, if it is indeed adaptively attenuating the lower frequencies.










There are other things the system can be doing to control the output power, such as compression. And, given the cheap signal processing silicon available today, maybe they've developed some more exotic adaptive filtering that requires other testing methods.

I'm not current on what's available for the desktop, but I'd wager you can get a PC add-in setup with signal generator, ADC, and software for way less than the $20k for the Rohde-Schwarz.

It should allow control of the input amplitude and frequency, measure the output voltage, calculate the power, and generate some plots and data tables (.csv's) - all the stuff needed here.

BTW, forgive the pics - they were hacked in Paint, which is a far cry from MatLab 

[Edit]Thinking about this some more, if you have a pink noise source, and some way to do spectrum analysis on the output, you could run multiple sweeps of that, at progressively higher volume settings. You won't necessarily know the exact gain values, but you should still be able to see how the spectrum changes with increasing volume settings. That would still be useful info, I would think.

Doug

.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Thanks for your input Doug. Unfortunately I have no idea about most of what you just said. FFT? Fast Fourier Transfer? What the heck is that? As far as the CD as the signal source I disagree with you. If your source signal is from the CD, that's what we want to measure as we turn up the volume. I would not bother using the usb port or auxiliary jack as those are crap sources. Auxillary jack is highly attenuated as I found out when trying to use it for other source material. USB I never tested. I just assume it's crap as is everything else with computers. I thought using a microphone to capture the sound would be the way to go as that is how it was measured for tuning. Is it possible to connect the output (speaker terminals) of the amplifier to an RTA to get measurements? Although that may be too much power for the laptop and REW to handle so would require specialized equipment. Or possibly connect and take measurements prior to the amplifier input? I have know idea. This is way over my head. I'd just like to figure it out.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Pink noise
*Description*
Pink noise or ¹⁄f noise is a signal or process with a frequency spectrum such that the power spectral density is inversely proportional to the frequency of the signal. Pink noise is one of the most common signals in biological systems. In pink noise, each octave carries an equal amount of noise energy. Wikipedia


What is the difference between white noise and pink noise?
*What's the difference between white* and *pink*? They both cover all the frequencies that the human ear can hear, but the intensity *of pink noise* decreases as frequency increases. So whereas *white noise* can sound like static or a hiss, *pink noise is* smoother and more soothing across all frequencies.Mar 8, 2017
*Pink-Noise-vs-White-Noise — SilverSneakers*


https://www.silversneakers.com › blog › sound-boosts-sleep-memory

Velleman K4301: Pink Noise Generator Kit 

I could not find a cheap spectrum analyzer. I bought my pink noise generator/spectrum analyzer in the late 80's from DAK industries for about $150 to help me set up my home stereo.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Found one: https://www.ebay.com/i/113899718927...3899718927&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=11010&ul_noapp=true


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

How does this help for our Cruzes? That looks a lot like my Yamaha graphic equalizer in my home system. Without the spectrum analyzer portion of course. Too many questions, so little time.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

This comes with mikes and other stuff to use in a "room". The Cruze is just a weird little room as far as the equipment is concerned.


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## JerryGash (May 5, 2017)

https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/A-Straightforward-Stereo-Tuning-Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf



Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Good Read, I especially liked the part about the Reflection-Free Environment.


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## SlashtaCross (Jul 7, 2017)

.


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## grtpumpkin (Nov 25, 2016)

Looks like Madisound Speaker Store may have the Silver Flutes in stock. That's where I purchased mine. But the tweets are out of stock according to Madisound website as of today. Looks like parts xpress has the tweets in stock. Not sure how the tune file would work as your Cruze is a 2016 ( different body style ) i would think it would require some tweekng to the tune.
Rich


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## SlashtaCross (Jul 7, 2017)

updated on following post


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

The limited should be the same. The stuff is always in and out of stock. There is nothing updated as it is still relevant.


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## SlashtaCross (Jul 7, 2017)

edit


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## SlashtaCross (Jul 7, 2017)

.


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## SlashtaCross (Jul 7, 2017)

.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

SlashtaCross said:


> I never did the Big 3 upgrade but I can't see how that would help me. Most people claim it's for when you add a lot of power to your car.


The Cruze has a sketchy grounding system. When you add equipment that draws more power, it strains the already weak ground system. By adding a big three to the vehicle, you greatly enhance the grounding or return path as well as increase the flow capability to the starter.



https://cruzekits.com/shop/ols/products/chevy-cruze-2011-2016-limited-big-3-kit



@XtremeRevolution


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## SlashtaCross (Jul 7, 2017)

.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

SlashtaCross said:


> Noise heard here: IMG_4583


Sorry, I could hear you breathing and moving, but nothing else.


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## SlashtaCross (Jul 7, 2017)

Blasirl said:


> Sorry, I could hear you breathing and moving, but nothing else.


funny....

Either way I solved this issue by getting rid of the joke of a DSP. If anyone visits this forum I'd suggest staying away from what these people are pedaling. The miniDSP is woefully underpowered and isn't even meant for car audio. That's coming directly from the company that produces it. Just stick with doing what everyone does and buy a reputable brand set of component speakers and save yourself the headaches! There's a reason why they're so popular and why these companies are so successful. They work. Sometimes it's better to stick with the crowd and not follow the 2 people saying that their way is better. I installed a totally different dsp and have no noise issue whatsoever now. I'd say that the average consumer of car audio shouldn't even bother with a dsp. As long as you can set your crossovers and gains don't bother with all of this extra **** these people say matters. The sound isn't improved as much as they try to make people believe it is when you eq or add delays. You'll get more bang for your buck steering clear of it. 

Also they say you have to do all of this work with treating your doors and building adapters, Well actually the op guy is trying to pedal "his" adapters and sell you "his" stuff, in order for the junk to sound good they're selling. While I did all of that myself it's not once mentioned that instead of buying all of these separate pieces of equipment, you can actually buy a single unit that handles all of these things. You can buy a _Helix M Four DSP_ which is an LOC, DSP, 4ch amplifier, and more! So while you'll save space and less wiring hassle you'll end up spending less money all together! Like what the hell are these people smoking? These people are just salesmen trying to scam poor souls just getting into car audio. Steer clear and follow the crowd on this one!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

SlashtaCross said:


> funny....
> 
> Either way I solved this issue by getting rid of the joke of a DSP. If anyone visits this forum I'd suggest staying away from what these people are pedaling. The miniDSP is woefully underpowered and isn't even meant for car audio. That's coming directly from the company that produces it. Just stick with doing what everyone does and buy a reputable brand set of component speakers and save yourself the headaches! There's a reason why they're so popular and why these companies are so successful. They work. Sometimes it's better to stick with the crowd and not follow the 2 people saying that their way is better. I installed a totally different dsp and have no noise issue whatsoever now. I'd say that the average consumer of car audio shouldn't even bother with a dsp. As long as you can set your crossovers and gains don't bother with all of this extra **** these people say matters. The sound isn't improved as much as they try to make people believe it is when you eq or add delays. You'll get more bang for your buck steering clear of it.
> 
> Also they say you have to do all of this work with treating your doors and building adapters, Well actually the op guy is trying to pedal "his" adapters and sell you "his" stuff, in order for the junk to sound good they're selling. While I did all of that myself it's not once mentioned that instead of buying all of these separate pieces of equipment, you can actually buy a single unit that handles all of these things. You can buy a _Helix M Four DSP_ which is an LOC, DSP, 4ch amplifier, and more! So while you'll save space and less wiring hassle you'll end up spending less money all together! Like what the hell are these people smoking? These people are just salesmen trying to scam poor souls just getting into car audio. Steer clear and follow the crowd on this one!


Not sure what your problem is but clearly you needed help and didn't get it. I've been too busy to put my time and energy into this project. However, my vehicle continues to run perfectly with the original miniDSP 2x4 that I installed back before this thread was written. That's what...9 years? Furthermore, they more recently sponsored me a c-DSP 6x8 that will be going in the 124 Spider, and they were quite aware of where I would be using it. 

I don't sell the miniDSP. All of these years, I haven't made a single dime off of them, or any adapters or electronics. I sold speaker baffles for a few years and made very little profit and haven't sold a single pair in over 5 years now. I don't even charge for the tune. Going on about people getting scammed when hundreds have successfully implemented what you failed to is an admission of your ignorance and nothing else. The rest is just senseless rambling. Time alignment makes a massive difference, which is why ALL halfway decent DSPs have the capabilities and why all respectable tuners use it. 3rd order harmonic distortion measurements are used frequently when designing passive crossovers and allows one to lift the sound stage in a mobile environment as much as possible. That's absolute fact. 

You need not search any further than the fact that we're nearing a decade since this thread was created, with just shy of 500 total posts, and you're the only one to come in here whining about your inability to achieve results. Of course it's everyone's problem but your own; that's how society operates so you may as well jump on the blame bandwagon too. 

Perhaps you're right, that some people should just stick to components and passive crossovers. 

Sent from my BlackBerry Key2 using Tapatalk


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## Blacmonk (8 mo ago)

Did the silverflute/vifa install with mini dsp a decade ago. I am a firm believer in sq sound. It was amazing. Now I use kicker key amps and they can be beat! And I still use silver flutes. Longest lasting speaker I have ever used!


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Blacmonk said:


> Did the silverflute/vifa install with mini dsp a decade ago. I am a firm believer in sq sound. It was amazing. Now I use kicker key amps and they can be beat! And I still use silver flutes. Longest lasting speaker I have ever used!


Welcome Aboard!

Don't forget to introduce yourself and your Cruze here.


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