# EGR Coolers on National Backorder, Locked in P2457.



## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

I'm waiting over 1 week with the EGR cooler assembly on backorder. It was an intermittent check engine light that brought me to the dealership and GM technical says replace the entire cooler assembly.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

I get the feeling GM is doing some serious belt tightening right now. Bean counters are probably tightening the supply chain - and going too far. (Reducing inventory too much).

That being said, I am planning on cleaning the egr and saw a new egr valve cost $85 on trunkmonkeyparts.com. So I ordered one to swap it out. I will then clean the other one and keep it in the shelf.

It showed up in two days with gaskets I also ordered.

For the egr cooler itself, you really only need to replace if the internal water jacket is leaking coolant. They are replacing them to save time. They could be cleaned. Just in case someone gets in a jam....

Jeff


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Barry Allen said:


> I'm waiting over 1 week with the EGR cooler assembly on backorder. It was an intermittent check engine light that brought me to the dealership and GM technical says replace the entire cooler assembly.


That sounds pretty much exactly like my situation. It began as intermittent, and got looked at the first time after it had cleared on its own, but was in historical. Second visit it was still locked in, and dealer got GM tech to say replace the cooler, that was the end of July, parts have been on order since then... I do monitor the car periodically when I drive it, I can see the EGR inlet temp and outlet temp, I don't see anything that different from the other two 1.6L Diesel cars I have, I'm not sure what parameter is setting the code. MPG continues to be great, and regen frequency is typical for that car. There doesn't appear to be any coolant loss... so not a big concern, but I'd like the light off at some point (if it were out of warranty I'd clean the cooler and reset the code myself).


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

oregon_rider said:


> I get the feeling GM is doing some serious belt tightening right now. Bean counters are probably tightening the supply chain - and going too far. (Reducing inventory too much).
> 
> That being said, I am planning on cleaning the egr and saw a new egr valve cost $85 on trunkmonkeyparts.com. So I ordered one to swap it out. I will then clean the other one and keep it in the shelf.
> 
> ...


Good plan, Amazon appears to have the Gen 2 EGR valve as well: https://smile.amazon.com/ACDelco-55570005-Original-Equipment-Valve/dp/B06Y5LQSF9/ref=au_as_r?_encoding=UTF8&Make=Chevrolet|47&Model=Cruze|16206&Year=2017|2017&ie=UTF8&n=15684181&s=automotive&vehicleId=8&vehicleType=automotive

and found the EGR cooler temp sensor, but no cooler.. 





Amazon.com: ACDelco 55495829 GM Original Equipment EGR Valve Cooler Temperature Sensor: Automotive


Buy ACDelco 55495829 GM Original Equipment EGR Valve Cooler Temperature Sensor: Cat-Back Systems - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



smile.amazon.com


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Interesting, Rock Auto has the cooler, apparently IN STOCK for $176.99, yet GM can't get one?! Talk about horrible logistics people. 





2017 CHEVROLET CRUZE 1.6L L4 DIESEL Turbocharged EGR Cooler | RockAuto


RockAuto ships auto parts and body parts from over 300 manufacturers to customers' doors worldwide, all at warehouse prices. Easy to use parts catalog.



www.rockauto.com


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

The differential pressure hoses I ordered are on backorder too. Not that I expected the dealer to have them in stock but for a year-old car it's pretty concerning how many things I'm seeing listed on backorder (after I had to wait 5 weeks for a turbo earlier this year). I wonder if it's happening with non-diesel cars too ... I remember during the turbo wait I did some Googling and found similar complaints from people with all sorts of GM vehicles.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> The differential pressure hoses I ordered are on backorder too. Not that I expected the dealer to have them in stock but for a year-old car it's pretty concerning how many things I'm seeing listed on backorder (after I had to wait 5 weeks for a turbo earlier this year). I wonder if it's happening with non-diesel cars too ... I remember during the turbo wait I did some Googling and found similar complaints from people with all sorts of GM vehicles.


It may be worse for GM, but I'd bet it's similar for pretty much all new cars. While the new cars are being built, the parts are mostly consumed for the new production cars, the OEMs, to be LEAN, don't carry much inventory as it has inherent costs. Also, being new, there are no aftermarket producers, yet.. so that puts us in this situation. What I find perplexing is that I can order the cooler at Rock Auto with a one day delay, but the dealer can manage to get it via GM in a month, that is quite telling of a specific problem within the GM organization. 

Ironically, I have a 1962 Land Rover. Parts are both easy to get, and relatively cheap for that car, but they did produce that model for almost 4 decades (in some parts still produce it, the defender), so the aftermarket has all kinds of options. That puts a bit of contrast on the parts supply for new cars, that and a particular model is in production for about 3 years, tops in most cases, but the OEMs, can and should do better. 

For those hoses, you might be able to measure the ID/OD and just get a fuel hose cut to length and use that pending the molded hoses.. just a thought. I'm not sure of the exact hose config on the Gen 2, but on my Gen 1 it's a pretty straight shot from the metal lines to the sensor, a piece of cut fuel line would certainly work on that car.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

oregon_rider said:


> For the egr cooler itself, you really only need to replace if the internal water jacket is leaking coolant.  They are replacing them to save time. They could be cleaned. Just in case someone gets in a jam....


I'm going to straight-up ask the dealership to give me the factory-installed EGR cooler assembly. I'll clean it up and put it on a shelf to keep as a spare.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> It may be worse for GM, but I'd bet it's similar for pretty much all new cars. While the new cars are being built, the parts are mostly consumed for the new production cars, the OEMs, to be LEAN, don't carry much inventory as it has inherent costs. Also, being new, there are no aftermarket producers, yet.. so that puts us in this situation. What I find perplexing is that I can order the cooler at Rock Auto with a one day delay, but the dealer can manage to get it via GM in a month, that is quite telling of a specific problem within the GM organization.
> 
> Ironically, I have a 1962 Land Rover. Parts are both easy to get, and relatively cheap for that car, but they did produce that model for almost 4 decades (in some parts still produce it, the defender), so the aftermarket has all kinds of options. That puts a bit of contrast on the parts supply for new cars, that and a particular model is in production for about 3 years, tops in most cases, but the OEMs, can and should do better.
> 
> For those hoses, you might be able to measure the ID/OD and just get a fuel hose cut to length and use that pending the molded hoses.. just a thought. I'm not sure of the exact hose config on the Gen 2, but on my Gen 1 it's a pretty straight shot from the metal lines to the sensor, a piece of cut fuel line would certainly work on that car.


Hadn't really thought of the lean thing, but that makes sense ... I understand the benefits of lean manufacturer but just the term brings back bad memories having worked in a lean factory for a year, ha. Parts are also much easier to get for my 70s/80s Mercedes ... I'm restoring the 87 and it's crazy what I've been able to get from the factory ... like full rocker panels, from Germany, which arrived at my dealer in less than a week ... this isn't even a valuable car people regularly restore like a roadster. Even my 2005 diesel Jeep hasn't been that bad, though the aftermarket helps.

For my hose I think I'm going to try putting a little "patch" around the ripped area and a different clamp on it. I'm not entirely sure it even has the right clamp, as between four hose ends there are three clamp types. I was hoping to get the new ones in partly just to get a good look at their design before tampering with anything, but it isn't going to hurt to swap out the clamp (knock on wood).


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

I don't have any solutions, but can offer the minor consolation I also have the same codes and indefinitely back-ordered parts. Such is the life I have chosen as owner of a modern diesel.

At least we can still drive our cars (seemingly without issue) unlike the Silverado HD guys that were facing the same parts availability issues with DEF heaters and turbos a year ago.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

phil1734 said:


> I don't have any solutions, but can offer the minor consolation I also have the same codes and indefinitely back-ordered parts. Such is the life I have chosen as owner of a modern diesel.
> 
> At least we can still drive our cars (seemingly without issue) unlike the Silverado HD guys that were facing the same parts availability issues with DEF heaters and turbos a year ago.


I think it's a problem with GM overall and not just Diesel, then again FCA had serious problems with parts for a steering recall on my truck that was so bad the government forced them to offer a buyback. That DEF heater also affected Gen 1 Cruze, but by the time mine failed and needed a replacement they had managed to get caught up and had the parts.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

In order avoid some of these in the future several things come to mind....

Keep your air filter very clean. I would change it every year. I was reading up on egr codes for excessive flow through egr and one thing that can cause this is a restricted air filter. More flow would dirty the cooler more quickly.

Someone here mentioned to me that running an additive with a cetane booster would be a good idea to reduce soot buildup and help avoid dpf issues. This would also help keep the egr clean. So always run good quality fuel and possibly add an additive with a cetane booster. Our motor was designed for euro market where cetane is higher. For high quality fuel Costco has top tier rated diesel. And Chevron is good. I would say this is particularly important if you are doing alot of city driving.

You can run an additive focused on keeping the egr and dpf clean. These use a catalyst to lower the temperature at which the soot will ignite. This has two effects. One is that you get a cleaner burn with less soot as the catalyst creates a more complete combustion process - so both the egr and dpf will be kept clean. The other is that the catalyst will allow for more effective passive and active regeneration of the dpf. With the catalyst lowering the ignition point of the soot from 600 to 400 degrees C, any soot deposited in the dpf will also have the catalyst intermixed with it. So passive regens will initiate more easily. This is where you are driving and exhaust gas temps get high enough where soot in dpf ignites and burns off. When active regenerations occur, the catalyst will make active regens more effective - shorter in duration and more complete. As a side benefit, shorter active regens will reduce fuel consumption.

There are two additives used for dpf cleaning catalysts. The first is ferrocene which has been used in diesels in mining for many years to reduce soot smoke from diesels in mines. A ferrocene based additive that can be ordered in the united states is liqui moly dpf protector. The other is cerium oxide and is a more recent development. Cerium oxide has a benefit that it can be used all the time in a lower dose to keep the egr and dpf clean. I haven't been able to find anything in the u.s. using this - so I have contacted a distributor for xenum nex10 in europe (nice guy by the way) and shipping some over. If anyone would like to do a group buy, let me know and I will add a few bottles to my order for reduced shipping etc.

thanks,
jeff


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

Messaged my dealer again after my above post. Still on back order from just over a week ago, but they also said they had a customer who has had his on order since July 5th of this year. ??


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

phil1734 said:


> Messaged my dealer again after my above post. Still on back order from just over a week ago, but they also said they had a customer who has had his on order since July 5th of this year. ??


Similar story on mine. Car seems to drive without any issue and no change in MPG or DEF use.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

oregon_rider said:


> In order avoid some of these in the future several things come to mind....
> 
> Keep your air filter very clean. I would change it every year. I was reading up on egr codes for excessive flow through egr and one thing that can cause this is a restricted air filter. More flow would dirty the cooler more quickly.
> 
> ...


Great information, thanks. I might be interested in that additive. I'll look up the details. Having 4 Diesel Cruze vehicles I would certainly put it to use. The Gen 1 is throwing the DPF D/P sensor code again, which I'm almost certain is caused be intake crud/soot residual oil build up. 

Avoiding that would be useful. 

Adding to the back story on mine, the issue is happening on my wife's car that has fewer miles than the one I drive.. but it has an average time between regens quite a bit higher miles than mine. Despite more miles on mine, not having this problem. So I can guess a a few differences that might explain: 1) I drive more spirited, harder accelerations. 2) mine is a manual, higher final drive engine RPM than the 9sp auto, thus higher exhaust flow rates. 

One consistent theme: Diesels, especially with emissions, have fewer problems when used at higher loads, temperatures, and spirited driving. 

The HD diesel truck emissions problems were much worse, given that these were sized for heavy loads and towing, but often driven unloaded they were often not even attaining open thermostat temperatures, I observed this with my Cummins powered Dodge after coolant flush and replacement... i had I had to drive at highway speed for almost an hour unloaded just to get to an open thermostat so I could get all the air out!


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

There is a seller on eBay for nex10. It appears this comes from Russia, is that correct? That would explain why it's hard to find any website that will open without errors...


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

oregon_rider said:


> I was reading up on egr codes for excessive flow through egr and one thing that can cause this is a restricted air filter.


I find this a stretch of my imagination. Yes, theoretically if you reduce the flow of clean intake air you might increase the amount of EGR drawn into the intake. But isn't the EGR valve variable/adjustable? It's not just a snapped open/shut valve? If so, the ECU should be controlling the flow of EGR to modulate it to an acceptable level. Less clean intake air means dial that EGR valve closed a little bit more so the EGR flow is reduced.



> Someone here mentioned to me that running an additive with a cetane booster would be a good idea to reduce soot buildup and help avoid dpf issues.


That was me. It's something I read up on a VW TDI website maintained by a garage that specializes in VW diesels. I don't know how accurate their advice is but if you already have a source of good quality fuel (California where their cetane requirements are higher, or anywhere that you can get a good biodiesel blend) I cannot imagine a cetane additive helping. My local oil company that sells B11 fuel quotes about 46-47 cetane for their diesel. There are plenty of places around me selling B20 fuel in summer months, and I imagine their cetane numbers are similar. For an engine that requires 40 cetane as a minimum, 45-47 is more than adequate for clean combustion.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> The HD diesel truck emissions problems were much worse, given that these were sized for heavy loads and towing, but often driven unloaded they were often not even attaining open thermostat temperatures


This is my personal opinion: The USA has too many douchenozzles buying HD diesel pickups when they don't need them.

Do you use a truck for work? Do you use a truck for SERIOUS work? If you do something like towing close to the maximum towing rating for modern trucks (that can get above 30,000 pounds!), sure, go ahead and buy that diesel engine option. In fact, it's required to get the maximum tow package on any Ford, Ram, or GM pickup.

Do you tow a bass boat, camper, or maybe a work trailer? If you're towing under 10,000 pounds, that can be accomplished with a 1/2 ton pickup from the big 3. You can get a Ford F-150 EcoBoost (or the 5.0 gasoline V-8) that will cost at least $15,000 less than a diesel pickup and it will tow what you want just fine. Save that purchase price up front and that's a lot of fuel you'd have to save to come close to paying back that diesel engine option on the 3/4 ton pickups.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Barry Allen said:


> This is my personal opinion: The USA has too many douchenozzles buying HD diesel pickups when they don't need them.
> 
> Do you use a truck for work? Do you use a truck for SERIOUS work? If you do something like towing close to the maximum towing rating for modern trucks (that can get above 30,000 pounds!), sure, go ahead and buy that diesel engine option. In fact, it's required to get the maximum tow package on any Ford, Ram, or GM pickup.
> 
> Do you tow a bass boat, camper, or maybe a work trailer? If you're towing under 10,000 pounds, that can be accomplished with a 1/2 ton pickup from the big 3. You can get a Ford F-150 EcoBoost (or the 5.0 gasoline V-8) that will cost at least $15,000 less than a diesel pickup and it will tow what you want just fine. Save that purchase price up front and that's a lot of fuel you'd have to save to come close to paying back that diesel engine option on the 3/4 ton pickups.


Well certainly people buy all kinds of things they don't need, but in a free country, that is quite normal. That said, I in fact made the switch to Diesel pick up when I was towing a small RV trailer with a 1/2 ton gas pick up at it's tow limits. That was a rig that would barely do highway speed, sometimes not even hold highway speed. Then traded in for a diesel, sure more than I needed, but back in 2005 there were no 1/2 ton Diesel options. That rig got over 15MPG, which is a massive improvement, and could hold highway speed even going up an mountain pass! If you want to do significant travel I'm such a rig, then the diesel makes sense. Some of the new 1/2 ton Diesel options also make sense... I try to be cautious to not judge the choices of others when it doesn't affect me, and in part because it's impossible to know all their reasons for the choice they made.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Well certainly people buy all kinds of things they don't need, but in a free country, that is quite normal. That said, I in fact made the switch to Diesel pick up when I was towing a small RV trailer with a 1/2 ton gas pick up at it's tow limits. That was a rig that would barely do highway speed, sometimes not even hold highway speed. Then traded in for a diesel, sure more than I needed, but back in 2005 there were no 1/2 ton Diesel options. That rig got over 15MPG, which is a massive improvement, and could hold highway speed even going up an mountain pass! If you want to do significant travel I'm such a rig, then the diesel makes sense. Some of the new 1/2 ton Diesel options also make sense... I try to be cautious to not judge the choices of others when it doesn't affect me, and in part because it's impossible to know all their reasons for the choice they made.


Yes, back in 2005 the 1/2 ton pickup market was not what it is now.

Just the F-150 options: the 2.7 EcoBoost is enough for almost everyone, the 3.5 EcoBoost is an upgrade, and the 5.0 V-8 for the top towing needs of that 1/2 ton truck. Jump to Ram trucks and the 5.7 Hemi tows as much as you need because even Ram has beefed up the suspension and build of their 1/2 ton truck. GM offers powerful V-8 engines in their 1500 pickups (the 6.0 is solid and tows far more than most people need).

We've reached an age where these new 1/2 ton diesel pickups actually DO NOT make sense. The Powerstroke V-6 from Ford is available only in higher trim levels, so you're spending large amounts of money to save some pennies in fuel. The new Ram EcoDiesel holds promise because they've said it will be available in all trim levels of the truck, all the way down to the regular cab work trucks with vinyl seats!

We are in a market position where a serious diesel engine option (large engines in the 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks) makes it a $15,000-20,000 upgrade over a 1/2 ton pickup with the maximum towing capacity. Just spitballing, but at least 50% of people who tow something not as a business can do just fine with a 1/2 ton truck.

But you are 100% correct: Individual needs vary, and people can buy what they want.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Just to check things out, I went to the big 3 websites to see what their max towing capacity is on 1/2 ton trucks.

Ram 1500: 12,750 lbs
Ford F-150: 13,200 lbs
Chevy 1500: 13,400 lbs

The Ford F-150 accomplishes the maximum towing with the 3.5 EcoBoost engine instead of the 5.0 V-8!

All of these trucks as base models with the maximum towing packages are far cheaper than any 3/4 ton or larger diesel pickup. If you are towing 10,000 pounds or less (going right up to that maximum probably makes it worth upgrading to a bigger truck) you can do just fine with a gasoline powered 1/2 ton pickup.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> Just to check things out, I went to the big 3 websites to see what their max towing capacity is on 1/2 ton trucks.
> 
> Ram 1500: 12,750 lbs
> Ford F-150: 13,200 lbs
> ...


does resale/longevity cover the increased purchase price?


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

boraz said:


> does resale/longevity cover the increased purchase price?


 It has for me. FYI, i am one of the douchenozzles of which Barry speaks ...

After having a 1 ton pickup, a half ton is more like a car. 

Everything is heavier and built to last ... Brakes, frame, transmission, differential, engine... _Everything_ is more durable.

I bought my 2005 Chev 3500 duramax new for $36k. It was heavily discounted as most gm vehicles still are today. On kbb today it books out at $19k. Not bad for 14 years of use and 170k miles. I fully expect it to.so another 170k miles without issue I bought it when i.was 45 years old and it will last into my 70s..... Works for me..

Jeff


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

oregon_rider said:


> It has for me. FYI, i am one of the douchenozzles of which Barry speaks ...
> 
> After having a 1 ton pickup, a half ton is more like a car.
> 
> ...


I really liked my 2005 Duramax with the 6sp ZF manual transmission, and I'm absolutely sure I'd still be driving it today, if not for a reckless driver who totaled it. That led to a 2007, in that year, auto only. Turned out to be a lemon. GM bought it back, then got the current truck a 2009 Dodge Cummins.. manual 6sp. I plan to keep this for a long time. It was about $38k new, and still has a book value over 23k, of course driven by the insane cost of the new HD trucks.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

oregon_rider said:


> FYI, i am one of the douchenozzles of which Barry speaks ...


If you're USING the truck and putting miles on it doing so, you're not one of the douchenozzles. The people I speak of are the "TRUCK NUTZ, ROLL COAL, I NEED A 6-FOOT LADDER OR A RUNNING START WITH A POLE VAULT TO GET IN MY LIFTED TRUCK" drivers I see rolling around doing nothing with their trucks other than a hobby.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Barry Allen said:


> If you're USING the truck and putting miles on it doing so, you're not one of the douchenozzles. The people I speak of are the "TRUCK NUTZ, ROLL COAL, I NEED A 6-FOOT LADDER OR A RUNNING START WITH A POLE VAULT TO GET IN MY LIFTED TRUCK" drivers I see rolling around doing nothing with their trucks other than a hobby.


I think I understand you. I really dislike the rolling coal people too. It also seems pretty ridiculous some of the modifications they make. When it comes to rolling coal, that actually DOES affect others and being upset about it is legitimate.


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## firehawk618 (Feb 24, 2013)

MRO1791 said:


> Interesting, Rock Auto has the cooler, apparently IN STOCK for $176.99, yet GM can't get one?! Talk about horrible logistics people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


* 1 day delay = they might not actually be able to get it. In other words they have to order it from GM or their supplier.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

MRO1791 said:


> There is a seller on eBay for nex10. It appears this comes from Russia, is that correct? That would explain why it's hard to find any website that will open without errors...


 The product is made in Belgium. The only seller on eBay is from Russia.

I will send you a separate message to see if you want me to add some into my order for you.

Jeff


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> I think I understand you. I really dislike the rolling coal people too. It also seems pretty ridiculous some of the modifications they make. When it comes to rolling coal, that actually DOES affect others and being upset about it is legitimate.


I was at the gym one day and there was a Duramax pickup outside. It had enough smoke coming from it that I was about to call 911 to report a vehicle on fire. I hesitated long enough to find someone was in the truck, showing it off to another person in the parking lot. They had an exhaust stack about 15 inches in diameter behind the cab and it was belching so much smoke it looked like the stack on a steam locomotive. 

I never understood the utility of that. For genuine off-road use like in tractor pulling, it's different. This is just waste and showing off for no good reason.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Barry Allen said:


> I was at the gym one day and there was a Duramax pickup outside. It had enough smoke coming from it that I was about to call 911 to report a vehicle on fire. I hesitated long enough to find someone was in the truck, showing it off to another person in the parking lot. They had an exhaust stack about 15 inches in diameter behind the cab and it was belching so much smoke it looked like the stack on a steam locomotive.
> 
> I never understood the utility of that. For genuine off-road use like in tractor pulling, it's different. This is just waste and showing off for no good reason.


Yes, it is ridiculous, but worse.. these people doing that crap are begging the big intrusive Gov't to do something like emissions inspections on all diesel vehicles, in addition to putting out pollution that does affect other people. You would have been within rights to call 911 to report that idiot.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

UPDATE: as of 17 Sept, the EGR cooler is now at the serving dealer, and the service appointment is 1 October. Ironically, after almost 1000 miles with the MIL on, it's now clear, yet the work is set to be completed anyway. I asked about keeping the old EGR Cooler, but the dealership said GM would want it back, so I won't be able to keep it, clean it, and have a spare.


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

My MIL will also turn off every 500 miles or so, then it's back on within a day or two. 

They can pull up the onboard history if there really is any question over its status.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Well that SAGA continues.. the finally got the part, and went to do the work, but apparantly it now has a coolant leak, and they need to find new O-rings to fix the leak. Ironically the MIL had gone out on its own, and car seemed to be fine.. not so much now. But I had 2 other unrelated issues for them to look at. I was losing brake fluid, slowly, but losing it. They FOUND it! A bleed screw was leaking, the could not stop the leak, so a new caliper it is.. The other a rattle at 1600 RPM, cold engine, in the overhead by the driver's door. They have not looked into that yet, as the car is now not drivable for them to verify. No estimated time to complete now, as they don't have the O-rings and don't know when they can get them, so I'm asking for a loaner.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Well that SAGA continues.. the finally got the part, and went to do the work, but apparantly it now has a coolant leak, and they need to find new O-rings to fix the leak. Ironically the MIL had gone out on its own, and car seemed to be fine.. not so much now. But I had 2 other unrelated issues for them to look at. I was losing brake fluid, slowly, but losing it. They FOUND it! A bleed screw was leaking, the could not stop the leak, so a new caliper it is.. The other a rattle at 1600 RPM, cold engine, in the overhead by the driver's door. They have not looked into that yet, as the car is now not drivable for them to verify. No estimated time to complete now, as they don't have the O-rings and don't know when they can get them, so I'm asking for a loaner.


Well I sure hope they can get the o-rings faster than they seem to be getting everything else. Good grief.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Well I sure hope they can get the o-rings faster than they seem to be getting everything else. Good grief.


Well, they don't seem optimistic, and still have no estimate. I got a 2020 Malibu as a loaner. It told them I have a long trip and I'm going to rack up some miles... Just the way it is.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Well, they don't seem optimistic, and still have no estimate. I got a 2020 Malibu as a loaner. It told them I have a long trip and I'm going to rack up some miles... Just the way it is.


Glad you have the loaner at least ... the 2019 Malibu I had for five weeks did the job and was better than most rentals I've had. GM loaners must really take a beating since this seems to be a widespread customer experience. Funnily I bought an old Peugeot a couple months ago with some fear and caveats parts might be hard to find in the US, but I'll probably have it fixed faster than GM can fix its own cars it sold last year.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

And the saga continues... Now the 2018 Manual is throwing the same P2457 code! Will this one take months? More to follow.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

It's long enough now that I don't remember when my EGR cooler was ordered, but it's been at least 6 weeks and maybe two months. The part is still not in stock. My local dealership is saying the UAW strike is affecting all kinds of parts deliveries. To my knowledge this part is made in Europe, so I'm wondering if the parts were shipped to the USA is there anything holding up them being delivered to whatever GM parts warehouse is necessary for them to ship to dealerships?


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

I think it’s a strike-related warehousing/delivery issue.

My Dad’s friend‘s Malibu has been stuck at the dealership for a few weeks waiting on parts for a known gearshift problem (locks in Park). 

Coincidentally she’s driving a Cruze loaner and she actually loves it better than her Malibu.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Glad you have the loaner at least ... the 2019 Malibu I had for five weeks did the job and was better than most rentals I've had. GM loaners must really take a beating since this seems to be a widespread customer experience. Funnily I bought an old Peugeot a couple months ago with some fear and caveats parts might be hard to find in the US, but I'll probably have it fixed faster than GM can fix its own cars it sold last year.


they get sold as new cars, lol


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

boraz said:


> they get sold as new cars, lol


Chrysler did that in the 1980s with some corporate cars. They'd disconnect the odometer, let executives drive them for some time, and then sold them as new. Got in huge trouble for it.

My parents picked up a 2014 Hyundai Sonata with 4,800 miles on it. It had been used as a dealership shuttle in one way or another, but was otherwise new. It had not been titled. They bought it for about $14,000 and it came with a new warranty good through 104,800 miles, though that warranty is now extended to something like 124,800 thanks to the huge engine recall and warranty program.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barry Allen said:


> Chrysler did that in the 1980s with some corporate cars. They'd disconnect the odometer, let executives drive them for some time, and then sold them as new. Got in huge trouble for it.
> 
> My parents picked up a 2014 Hyundai Sonata with 4,800 miles on it. It had been used as a dealership shuttle in one way or another, but was otherwise new. It had not been titled. They bought it for about $14,000 and it came with a new warranty good through 104,800 miles, though that warranty is now extended to something like 124,800 thanks to the huge engine recall and warranty program.


yeah no need to worry aboot odo,not sold is new regardless of condition/miles


and my condolences to those executives


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Now that the GM strike is settled I'm going to go to the dealership today and ask if they have an ETA on the part being delivered. They have such a backlog of warranty and other work that my chances of getting this repair done before the end of the year might be pretty low.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Barry Allen said:


> Now that the GM strike is settled I'm going to go to the dealership today and ask if they have an ETA on the part being delivered. They have such a backlog of warranty and other work that my chances of getting this repair done before the end of the year might be pretty low.


Good luck ... I hope this brings some improvement to parts availability. I'm very concerned about how my car will do over the winter with its regen problem still unresolved and having lost a turbo last winter ... don't really want to spend another several weeks in a Malibu or whatever else they give me.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Dealership service department say the part is still on nationwide backorder.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Yep. Still no estimate for when it will be in, now with 2 cars needing the part (one a seal, the other the EGR cooler). Now the THIRD car has a MIL light.. have not read the codes on it yet, but would not surprise me to see this same fault come up! At least my wife has decided she likes driving the loaner Malibu, except the hit on MPG, it's otherwise a pretty nice car.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Confirmed.. 3 for 3! ALL THREE of my Gen 2 Diesels now have had this error code and this is apparently why it is a national back order item! The good news is that the cars seem to drive perfectly fine despite this error code, and there is no rush to service (in fact be sure your dealer has ALL the parts and SEALS before they even try to start, or you'll have a car stuck on the dealers service lot for a long time like my 2017 which is waiting on a seal to fix a leak from the replaced EGR cooler (note, GM calls it a "housing" which is a bit odd, because it clearly has the coolant lines to it for the EGR gases to flow through.


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## chadtn (Feb 27, 2018)

Three cars waiting on the same months long back ordered parts and labor would drive me nuts. I know you said they all drive fine with the check engine light on, but do you have to worry about any emissions issues in your area? Here I wouldn't be able to renew my tags until they get the MIL cleared out. I bet there are some angry people out there some where with expired tags waiting on parts. heh..

Were there any indicators to watch for before the light came on? My tags expire in February and with my luck that's when the light will come on. lol

Chad


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

chadtn said:


> Three cars waiting on the same months long back ordered parts and labor would drive me nuts. I know you said they all drive fine with the check engine light on, but do you have to worry about any emissions issues in your area? Here I wouldn't be able to renew my tags until they get the MIL cleared out. I bet there are some angry people out there some where with expired tags waiting on parts. heh..
> 
> Were there any indicators to watch for before the light came on? My tags expire in February and with my luck that's when the light will come on. lol
> 
> Chad


Well actually the light is out on all three (even the one that is stuck in service, it had gone out on it's own while waiting for the part). The newest car it cleared on it's own pretty quickly. 

Fortunately they don't do emissions inspections here.. yet. Would not be surprised if our big intrusive government loving leaders don't try it at some point. 

It's a bit frustrating, and ironically if I didn't have them repair the first car then they had a leak and are now waiting for the new seal to fix a leak that came from their repair attempt. They are saying the parts are delay d due to the strike. At some point out that is not going to make much sense.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Well, still no end in sight on the first car, the are literally waiting for a couple of seals, about $30 worth of parts. By law any repair that takes over one month makes the car a lemon. It seems it's time to call GM and inform them they need to figure out how to get those $30 seals to the dealership, or prepare to buyback a low miles car.... It's ridiculous that they can't find a way to get $30 worth of one O-ring, and a Gasket. Meanwhile, still waiting parts for the second car, but the light is out, and there is no way I let them touch it until they are 100% certain that they have ALL the parts. The third light went out, they can read at next oil change and begin ordering parts. I noted that parked right next to my car stuck at the dealership is another Diesel Cruze that is nearly identical to my manual Cruze, how ironic. This appears to be a significant issue affecting the 1.6l Diesel.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Well, still no end in sight on the first car, the are literally waiting for a couple of seals, about $30 worth of parts. By law any repair that takes over one month makes the car a lemon. It seems it's time to call GM and inform them they need to figure out how to get those $30 seals to the dealership, or prepare to buyback a low miles car.... It's ridiculous that they can't find a way to get $30 worth of one O-ring, and a Gasket. Meanwhile, still waiting parts for the second car, but the light is out, and there is no way I let them touch it until they are 100% certain that they have ALL the parts. The third light went out, they can read at next oil change and begin ordering parts. I noted that parked right next to my car stuck at the dealership is another Diesel Cruze that is nearly identical to my manual Cruze, how ironic. This appears to be a significant issue affected the 1.6l Diesel.


I can't say that this is a major problem for these engines. I had a couple EGR codes and it's the dealership and GM technical saying the entire cooler assembly must be replaced, but the car is running just fine. The codes haven't returned for the months I've been waiting for the cooler assembly to arrive. I'll ask the technician when they do make the replacement if the new cooler assembly is somehow different (part numbers changed?) because I'd like to know if GM has made some sort of updated part to fix a problem.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Barry Allen said:


> I can't say that this is a major problem for these engines. I had a couple EGR codes and it's the dealership and GM technical saying the entire cooler assembly must be replaced, but the car is running just fine. The codes haven't returned for the months I've been waiting for the cooler assembly to arrive. I'll ask the technician when they do make the replacement if the new cooler assembly is somehow different (part numbers changed?) because I'd like to know if GM has made some sort of updated part to fix a problem.


Agree it doesn't seem to cause any issue with the running, or efficiency of the engine. I too will be asking about the part numbers. I'd bet there was some design flaw that is involved. There appears to have been one with the clutch hydraulics as well. It's not uncommon. When I say significant issue, it's more a logistical issue for GM and hassle to have fixed, but you are correct it's not an issue with the engine running or reliability, it seems, and I have 3 cars that have had the code, and no running or efficiency issues on any of them.


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

MRO1791 said:


> By law any repair that takes over one month makes the car a lemon.


From what I've seen that only applies to the first year and 12k miles of ownership, but that probably varies by state. Typically it needs to be a recurring thing as well


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

WillL84 said:


> From what I've seen that only applies to the first year and 12k miles of ownership, but that probably varies by state. Typically it needs to be a recurring thing as well


State Lemon Laws vary, but most say during the warranty period (part of the reason OEMs hesitate to offer long warranty periods on cars), and 4 attempts, not fixed, or 30 days and not fixed, is the most common criteria. 

Even if the State law is less helpful, you can find a lawyer to make it a Federal Lemon Law case, I did this back in 2009 and had GM buy back a GMC Truck that had an seemingly unfixable oil leak. As soon as a lawyer wrote a letter to GM, the paid up, and paid the lawyer's fees. They won't offer a buyback until a lawyer gets involved, but when one does they seem to do it promptly to minimize lawyers fees. 






Lemon Law for New Cars


If your car turns out to be a "lemon," you might be able to get a refund or a replacement vehicle. Here's how.




www.nolo.com













Rescinding a Car Purchase via Lemon Laws


Consumers may be able to void a car purchase via provisions of federal and state lemon laws, consumer protections for fraud, and language used in the contract.




www.rocketlawyer.com


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

And... I'm in WA state.. here the criteria to qualify as a lemon is: 1. Diagnosis or repair of the same “serious safety defect” has been attempted two* or more times (with at least one during the “eligibility period”) and the defect continues to exist; OR 2. Diagnosis or repair of the same “nonconformity” has been attempted four* or more times (with at least one during the “eligibility period”) and the defect continues to exist; OR 3. A vehicle has been out-of-service for diagnosis or repair of one or more nonconformities or serious safety defects (whether or not repaired) for a cumulative total of 30* calendar days, with at least one ‘attempt’ for each defect and 15* of those days occurring during the “eligibility period.” OR 4. Within a twelve-month period, two or more different serious safety defects, each of which have been subject to diagnosis or repair one or more times, where at least one attempt for each serious safety defect occurs during the period of coverage of the applicable manufacturer’s written warranty and within the eligibility period. 

Since my car was purchased in early 2018 (prior year model 2017), and it has about 17K miles, the entire time in the shop is under the first 2 year 24k miles criteria, and thus qualifies. If I wanted to make a case, GM would be forced to buy my car back. However, as of now I'm just wanting it back, the problem is not as much with the car, as it is with their logistics. The fix is a simple coolant leak from the repair attempt, before the work the car was working perfectly fine, and even the MIL that had been on for about 1000 miles, had cleared on its own. 



https://agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Home/Safeguarding_Consumers/Lemon_Law/General_Lemon_Law/Lemon_Law_BrochureFORTRANSLATION6-2013_1.pdf


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

That applies to it not getting fixed properly though. I'd imagine there's a caveat for parts not being available that makes the lemon law not apply


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

WillL84 said:


> That applies to it not getting fixed properly though. I'd imagine there's a caveat for parts not being available that makes the lemon law not apply


Actually, no there is no out for GM for their apparent inability to get parts. That is and should be covered. If they can properly set up a supply chain of parts for cars they make, that qualifies as a lemon. The specific purpose of the lemon law is to protect the consumer from buying an expensive new car that they are unable to use due to a manufacture defect, in this case the defect is their supply chain, end result remains I have a car that can not be driven. Their is not good excuse for why GM can't figure out how to get an O-ring and Gasket to get the car fixed, no good excuse for almost 2 months for those simple parts. 

From the above: "3. A vehicle has been out-of-service for diagnosis or repair of one or more nonconformities or serious safety defects (whether or not repaired) for a cumulative total of 30* calendar days, with at least one ‘attempt’ for each defect and 15* of those days occurring during the “eligibility period.” 

There is no "out" due to their incompetence with their parts supply chain. Note, that even if they actually do eventually REPAIR the car, I can STILL make a claim, though I have no intention to do so. The criteria is days out of service, there is no exception for inability to get parts. 



https://agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Home/Safeguarding_Consumers/Lemon_Law/General_Lemon_Law/Motor_Vehicles_Lemon_Law_Booklet.updated.7.2016.pdf


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

UPDATE: And just like that, yesterday I call GM and open the case on this delay and point out the car meets the legal definition of a lemon, and that I want it fixed right away.. and today, less than 24 hours later it is FIXED, and ready for pick up. 

It's about time! Ironic that it was literally the next day after the call, and it's done. Perhaps I should have called sooner!


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

My local dealership texted me to say the EGR cooler assembly has arrived. I've got to set up an appointment to get the car to them for 4-5 hours and we'll see what happens. I'm going to be asking the service department guy if this new part has any changes (updated part numbers) to see if there are differences from the stock EGR cooler.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Barry Allen said:


> My local dealership texted me to say the EGR cooler assembly has arrived. I've got to set up an appointment to get the car to them for 4-5 hours and we'll see what happens. I'm going to be asking the service department guy if this new part has any changes (updated part numbers) to see if there are differences from the stock EGR cooler.


It is a new part number. I'll try attach pictures of the new and old. The numbers are different. Old first, new second.


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

Well some activity on another thread reminded and inspired me to call my dealer and see if they had a delivery date estimate and make sure they hadn't lost my ticket, and according to them they had my cooler for about a week but just sent it back because they didn't know what to do with it because the service guy assigned to my ticket had left no instructions and has been fired since I was in for the diagnostics three months ago. 

Not sure if that's true but the firing of that guy makes sense based on all my previous experience with him. Of course they could just be trying to cover up that they lost the order and ticket entirely as well knowing this dealer (I only use them because I can practically walk there from work during the day.)

Anyways, the part that y'all might be interested in is that the dealer is now claiming that when they re-order the parts they are being told 2-3 week lead time.


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

Well, 9 months and 12,000 miles after my first trip to the dealer to start this mess I finally have the car back with the new EGR cooler housing installed. They also have a replacement EGR valve listed as parts used, but no o-ring or gasket set. So far so good. As others have described, my CEL was actually off when I went in, and has been off for some time, (recent winter temperatures maybe keeping it below the error threshold?) but they pulled the code from the on board history and went ahead with the repair.

The service report does say - and I'm paraphrasing here - that to complete the repair the tech should fill the def tank, force a regen, and check the NOx sensor functionality. So while nobody seems to be having issues, it would seem to me that there could potentially be long term issues if those have to be checked (and confirms my suspicion that it's the regen cycle that triggers the P2457 in the first place, hence why the CEL comes and goes.)


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

Related to checking nox sensors and related to my most recent repair...

I didn't get a descriptive service write up - but service advisor told me that my nox sensors were replaced with an updated part during my last repair. That repair consisted of replacing a plugged catalytic converter and subsequently needed nox sensors updated. 

All is well now - after months of plugged dpf issues.... Car got clogged up by extremely short trips while my daughter had car at college for ~10 months....

As a sidenote, I now have car back from my daughter and it is at home; I have new job where I won't have a commute (I work from home now...) - so will be running renewable diesel to avoid issues with dpf. This will also keep egr and egr cooler cleaner....



jeff


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

That'll do it. No time for a proper regen to clean it out


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

WillL84 said:


> That'll do it. No time for a proper regen to clean it out


 Yeah. I knew her use model for the car might be a problem; But thought a good drive on the highway like a trip to california (from oregon) would clear it out.. I didn't realize the cat would become plugged with "no way out" and need replacement... 

In addition, as a precaution I am going to remove egr valve to inspect and clean. And switching to either straight or blend of renewable diesel for cleaner combustion.

jeff


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

oregon_rider said:


> Yeah. I knew her use model for the car might be a problem; But thought a good drive on the highway like a trip to california (from oregon) would clear it out.. I didn't realize the cat would become plugged with "no way out" and need replacement...
> 
> In addition, as a precaution I am going to remove egr valve to inspect and clean. And switching to either straight or blend of renewable diesel for cleaner combustion.
> 
> jeff


When you say "cat" I assume you refer to the DPF? It's all the same unit, then there is the SCR where the DEF reacts to scrub NOx, that is the one under the car, the DPF is right in front of the engine block.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

MRO1791 said:


> When you say "cat" I assume you refer to the DPF? It's all the same unit, then there is the SCR where the DEF reacts to scrub NOx, that is the one under the car, the DPF is right in front of the engine block.


 Not sure - I picked up car early and they didn't have service write up for me - I need to ping them to send it to me. 

jeff


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

My car decided to join the P2457 club today. I never got a CEL. I actually took it to the dealer to beg them to look into my frequent regeneration problem that's been going on for over a year, and they found the DTC. It wasn't there the last time my car was at a dealer on Feb. 24, or any other of the numerous times I've had it at dealers. Annoying timing because now have to replace the EGR Cooler and send me back to drive it more before I can bring it back and have them try to diagnose the regen issue (which makes sense, obviously they can't diagnose when there's a known issue unfixed). They told me the parts should be there around Monday, so hopefully this means they're available now. They are sending me home with the car in between so it will be interesting to see if it actually triggers a CEL. This is the first normal problem my car has had, ha!


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> My car decided to join the P2457 club today. I never got a CEL. I actually took it to the dealer to beg them to look into my frequent regeneration problem that's been going on for over a year, and they found the DTC. It wasn't there the last time my car was at a dealer on Feb. 24, or any other of the numerous times I've had it at dealers. Annoying timing because now have to replace the EGR Cooler and send me back to drive it more before I can bring it back and have them try to diagnose the regen issue (which makes sense, obviously they can't diagnose when there's a known issue unfixed). They told me the parts should be there around Monday, so hopefully this means they're available now. They are sending me home with the car in between so it will be interesting to see if it actually triggers a CEL. This is the first normal problem my car has had, ha!


Interesting.. all 3 of mine had the CEL and code. With the last one I waited too long to have it read at the dealership and it cleared before they could see it, even cleared from historical. Something seems quite wrong about not getting a CEL, unless it was only in a pending status when they read it. Too much EGR could lead to excessive regens.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Interesting.. all 3 of mine had the CEL and code. With the last one I waited too long to have it read at the dealership and it cleared before they could see it, even cleared from historical. Something seems quite wrong about not getting a CEL, unless it was only in a pending status when they read it. Too much EGR could lead to excessive regens.


Yeah it really confused me. The light was definitely not on because I've been watching it closely since the recall thinking I might get a regen-related light. Nothing showed on my SGII either. They had the car all yesterday and called me this morning to say they found the code. I had just looked at my pending codes maybe three or four days ago too and SGII didn't pick up anything. The dealer listed just the one code and not any codes for the EGR valve itself but hopefully they will find any issues with the EGR system in the process of the cooler job. I was wondering if a blocked cooler could cause backpressure that would throw off the DPF readings ... or if too-cool exhaust gases are preventing the car from passive regens. I have to think any of these issues would have resulted in a code somewhere over all these months though. Though I do wonder if the recall software could have changed the sensitivity to the parameters that trip this. The timing does make me think.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Yeah it really confused me. The light was definitely not on because I've been watching it closely since the recall thinking I might get a regen-related light. Nothing showed on my SGII either. They had the car all yesterday and called me this morning to say they found the code. I had just looked at my pending codes maybe three or four days ago too and SGII didn't pick up anything. The dealer listed just the one code and not any codes for the EGR valve itself but hopefully they will find any issues with the EGR system in the process of the cooler job. I was wondering if a blocked cooler could cause backpressure that would throw off the DPF readings ... or if too-cool exhaust gases are preventing the car from passive regens. I have to think any of these issues would have resulted in a code somewhere over all these months though. Though I do wonder if the recall software could have changed the sensitivity to the parameters that trip this. The timing does make me think.


Come to think of it, my dealer did find a code for a bad injector, that one never appeared as a MIL/CEL light, and did not come up on an OBD 2 scan, and I never noted any problem, nor any loss of MPG, so it appears there can be "hidden" codes that can exist which we are not seeing with a standard OBD 2 scan. Perhaps it is something like that if not a pending code.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Come to think of it, my dealer did find a code for a bad injector, that one never appeared as a MIL/CEL light, and did not come up on an OBD 2 scan, and I never noted any problem, nor any loss of MPG, so it appears there can be "hidden" codes that can exist which we are not seeing with a standard OBD 2 scan. Perhaps it is something like that if not a pending code.


Interesting, it sounds like that kind of scenario. I guess there is information the computer just sort of sets to the side to wait and see what happens before "deciding" whether to throw a CEL. It does make me wonder if the code was in there before and the other dealers could have missed it. The print outs I have from the GDS data have a field for DTCs and specifically say there are none ... but I don't know if that's the same type of code as what showed up for this dealer. 

As it turns out logistically I'm going to have to just leave the car there until the parts come Monday. I can't get anyone to help me go get it until Friday and I'd just have to recruit someone to help bring it right back Monday. I have a bunch of old cars to drive in the time being. I would have been curious to see what happened over the next few days before the repair. I will update after the repair if anything seems different.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Update: Still waiting for the part(s). I stopped by the dealer yesterday to get my iPod out of the car, and the service manager said GM is still telling him the parts are en route. I am thinking maybe there is some transit slowdown because of the whole virus scenario. I really like this dealer so far so I feel hopeful about the actual work, just need the parts. In the meantime I'm still leaving the car there since it would likely be doing a fair amount of sitting here anyway.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Update: Still waiting for the part(s). I stopped by the dealer yesterday to get my iPod out of the car, and the service manager said GM is still telling him the parts are en route. I am thinking maybe there is some transit slowdown because of the whole virus scenario. I really like this dealer so far so I feel hopeful about the actual work, just need the parts. In the meantime I'm still leaving the car there since it would likely be doing a fair amount of sitting here anyway.


I'm sure they will use that excuse, and it might be valid, but they have a horrible supply chain when there is no excuse. It took months to get the first one of mine done.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> I'm sure they will use that excuse, and it might be valid, but they have a horrible supply chain when there is no excuse. It took months to get the first one of mine done.


Yeah, that is my worry ... that GM could be just BSing the dealer and it never shipped. My friend just had basically that exact scenario from Chrysler with his truck ... dealer was told the part had shipped and then two days later told it was on infinite back order ... it's the touchscreen radio and it's so complex the truck is undrivable without it. Unfortunately I think the red tape and miscommunication is the new normal for carmakers in general. But GM seems to have spectacularly widespread issues providing any parts which leaves me less than optimistic. If it's on back order I just want GM to say that, so I can just get the car back and drive it.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Yeah, that is my worry ... that GM could be just BSing the dealer and it never shipped. My friend just had basically that exact scenario from Chrysler with his truck ... dealer was told the part had shipped and then two days later told it was on infinite back order ... it's the touchscreen radio and it's so complex the truck is undrivable without it. Unfortunately I think the red tape and miscommunication is the new normal for carmakers in general. But GM seems to have spectacularly widespread issues providing any parts which leaves me less than optimistic. If it's on back order I just want GM to say that, so I can just get the car back and drive it.


Point well made, it is not isolated to GM. I was doing some research recently on the massive rise in prices of larger vehicles, and the now common 84mo car loan. What it told me is we have a new bubble with cars and car loans.. People are having problems making payments on cars far too expensive for them in the first place, this before the Corona virus. The OEMs are hiking the prices on the bigger lower MPG cars that are in demand, and people continue to buy them, even when the really can't afford them.. and this because for smaller cars, and EVs, the sell them at a loss in many cases, because CAFE standards require them to do so. In the case of FCA, the decided to not even try anymore, and started paying TESLA for credits so they can not meet CAFE and get credits from TESLA who but selling EVs gets credit for high MPG (even when they are EVs and no accounting is done for the shift in pollution to coal fired power plants.. but I digress). This came up because of the insane cost of new pick-up trucks.. I was being advised to just get a new truck instead of upgrade my existing, but frankly the numbers make no sense to do that, not even close.. I could dump a ton of cash into my current paid off truck and still be saving money based on the insane cost of the new trucks. The comparison I gave to demonstrate how CAFE standards have driven this outcome was to point out my 2009 truck was 38K new, and now you can't touch one for less than $60K, yet my 1996 Saturn was 12.5k new, and I can go buy a similar small car today for about 14K new, so the cost of the high MPG cars adjusted for inflation has actually gone down, and it seems pretty obvious they make little if any money on them, Cruze included. It's no wonder GM and Ford are going out of the Sedan business, they are likely better off doing what FCA does to pay for credits, or just pay the EPA fines, instead of lose money by selling the high MPG small cars that few people are wanting to buy (many do, but the market is very competitive). The real profit is in SUVs and up, so they need to offset the losses on small cars they basically give away, but hiking the prices on the cars in demand, that are low MPG in general.. and here we are. Even with that it's clear they are in a bind. 

Having said all that, you get to the efforts to cut costs everywhere possible, and warranty service work and parts support are bound to take a hit, not just GM but all OEMs. They only lose even more money there when they likely broke even or lost some selling us these cars in the first place. I kinda figured this out, and it was one reason I have as many cars as I do now, I was pretty sure they were not going to be available for long, especially the diesel, when gas prices are pretty low. The demand just was not there. And it turns out that is what happened. 

All this is making me look at keeping up older cars longer, and with some parts getting cheaper, and doing my own work, that makes good economic sense... Now if I can manage to get my old 60s Land Rover back out on the road.. I can literally hand crank start that thing, talk about low tech, it literally has 2 fuses on the original wiring harness..


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> All this is making me look at keeping up older cars longer, and with some parts getting cheaper, and doing my own work, that makes good economic sense... Now if I can manage to get my old 60s Land Rover back out on the road.. I can literally hand crank start that thing, talk about low tech, it literally has 2 fuses on the original wiring harness..


Yep, that's kind of where I'm leaning too. To be fair, I've always liked classics better, and daily drove my 87 Mercedes for years even when I owned a newer car ... but it was more about the charm, and I took the newer car on longer trips or where I just really needed something I didn't have to worry about. When I bought the Cruze I was looking forward to having that again; my previous new car in 2005 came with the experience that when something went wrong, it was basically hassle-free, I didn't really even have to know how anything in the car worked, and I don't think it was ever gone for more than two days for repair. I did expect the Cruze to have issues, but it's not really the car itself that has been a surprise ... I was genuinely surprised at how poor the customer service model is, and that people actually wait months for a brand new car to be fixed under warranty. All with really just a shrug from the manufacturer ... it isn't even remarkable to them. Also the amount of the car's function that depends on computers/programming is next-level too, compared to 2005. That part I expected but not quite to this extreme. With the Cruze at the dealer right now I'm driving my 78 Mercedes, 95 Mercedes, and 82 Peugeot ... I do miss some of the creature comforts of the Cruze, it's relative speed, and it's fuel economy ... but the old ones get me there and generally when something breaks it's just a matter of blocking out the time to fix it. I mean, go figure, Peugeot is long gone from the US, there isn't such thing as official service for them here anymore, but it's easier for me to get parts and fix that car than the domestic sedan I bought less than two years ago. 
The state of the current automotive economy is bizarre beyond words in my mind. I loved the excitement of buying a new car, and ordering exactly what I wanted, but it will be the last one I buy new if I can avoid it. I don't share the faith in the "unerring certainty of machinery" that others put into computers and electronics, especially not at the exclusion of human knowledge being invested into designing and servicing vehicles. And as far as I can tell, warranties are half-useless now ... like health insurance has become, they're basically just a catastrophic fallback plan ... not there for regular reassurance that your car will be kept in proper repair.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Yep, that's kind of where I'm leaning too. To be fair, I've always liked classics better, and daily drove my 87 Mercedes for years even when I owned a newer car ... but it was more about the charm, and I took the newer car on longer trips or where I just really needed something I didn't have to worry about. When I bought the Cruze I was looking forward to having that again; my previous new car in 2005 came with the experience that when something went wrong, it was basically hassle-free, I didn't really even have to know how anything in the car worked, and I don't think it was ever gone for more than two days for repair. I did expect the Cruze to have issues, but it's not really the car itself that has been a surprise ... I was genuinely surprised at how poor the customer service model is, and that people actually wait months for a brand new car to be fixed under warranty. All with really just a shrug from the manufacturer ... it isn't even remarkable to them. Also the amount of the car's function that depends on computers/programming is next-level too, compared to 2005. That part I expected but not quite to this extreme. With the Cruze at the dealer right now I'm driving my 78 Mercedes, 95 Mercedes, and 82 Peugeot ... I do miss some of the creature comforts of the Cruze, it's relative speed, and it's fuel economy ... but the old ones get me there and generally when something breaks it's just a matter of blocking out the time to fix it. I mean, go figure, Peugeot is long gone from the US, there isn't such thing as official service for them here anymore, but it's easier for me to get parts and fix that car than the domestic sedan I bought less than two years ago.
> The state of the current automotive economy is bizarre beyond words in my mind. I loved the excitement of buying a new car, and ordering exactly what I wanted, but it will be the last one I buy new if I can avoid it. I don't share the faith in the "unerring certainty of machinery" that others put into computers and electronics, especially not at the exclusion of human knowledge being invested into designing and servicing vehicles. And as far as I can tell, warranties are half-useless now ... like health insurance has become, they're basically just a catastrophic fallback plan ... not there for regular reassurance that your car will be kept in proper repair.


Excellent points made there, completely agree. Is that Peugeot a Diesel? We had a Peugeot Diesel Station Wagon in the early 80s and drove that and the 62 Land Rover across country in about 81 or so.. ironically more trouble with the Peugeot, well electrical. The alternator went out, and no way to get parts for that in the deep south in the 80s for sure.. so charged the battery at night, and drove during the day.. the engine was all mechanical and didn't need power to run, kind of like my diesel tractor today, totally EMP ready. That thing could care less about power once it was running. They did well on the mechanical, but they were known for electrical gremlins. Also noted same on the computerization, even my 2004 Land Rover Discovery is with 7 separate computers, but pretty simple compared to current vehicles out there. If I ever get the time it would be an interesting project to take a low tech mechanical diesel and fit it in my 1996 Saturn and have a low performance car that could get fantastic MPG and be extremely reliable. I've run into all kinds of issues working to figure out emissions issues on my 2009 Cummins, the early systems were much worse than what we have in the Cruze, and that is saying something given the challenges there. That said, the cost of a new truck is not an option, and that 11 year old truck is still valued in the mid 20K range.. its crazy.. perhaps the economic collapse we are facing will change that somewhat.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Excellent points made there, completely agree. Is that Peugeot a Diesel? We had a Peugeot Diesel Station Wagon in the early 80s and drove that and the 62 Land Rover across country in about 81 or so.. ironically more trouble with the Peugeot, well electrical. The alternator went out, and no way to get parts for that in the deep south in the 80s for sure.. so charged the battery at night, and drove during the day.. the engine was all mechanical and didn't need power to run, kind of like my diesel tractor today, totally EMP ready. That thing could care less about power once it was running. They did well on the mechanical, but they were known for electrical gremlins. Also noted same on the computerization, even my 2004 Land Rover Discovery is with 7 separate computers, but pretty simple compared to current vehicles out there. If I ever get the time it would be an interesting project to take a low tech mechanical diesel and fit it in my 1996 Saturn and have a low performance car that could get fantastic MPG and be extremely reliable. I've run into all kinds of issues working to figure out emissions issues on my 2009 Cummins, the early systems were much worse than what we have in the Cruze, and that is saying something given the challenges there. That said, the cost of a new truck is not an option, and that 11 year old truck is still valued in the mid 20K range.. its crazy.. perhaps the economic collapse we are facing will change that somewhat.


My Peugeot is a diesel, the naturally-aspirated four-cylinder with a four-speed manual ... so I think about as simple as it can get. It had some emissions equipment that is not functional (not intentionally) and I am not even sure how that system was supposed to work. I bought the car last August for $1,800 and have been really happy with it ... it's a survivor, not perfect but good driver condition. It has a few little modifications that work around some known issues ... a bypass fuel filter and a re-wired ignition switch. So far all I have had to do is the clutch slave and master cylinders. I'm going to replace the brake master cylinder as well as the brakes are a little squishier than I'd like, and give it a new battery. So far I've gotten 26-27 mpg on the two tanks I've driven it ... not Cruze TD numbers but really not bad considering I use it for local driving more than highway. They have their quirks but I think at this point they are distinctly an enthusiast's car, which means enthusiasts have found ways around their glitches. The parts and information availability in the internet age makes a huge difference, too.
I've heard that about the early Cummins (or any diesel) trucks with the emissions bells and whistles, that they were a nightmare. I don't know what I'd do if I needed a truck. No way I could afford anything these new days, let alone with the diesel. Or even used. I make a decent living and the Cruze seemed like a lot for me. So I don't know how any regular person can afford a new truck.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

So here's the latest: The EGR cooler came, but they are missing the gasket. Gasket is on backorder, and GM is shutting down parts manufacturing to make ventilators. I knew that would happen when I read that news. I'd think it was nice but honestly they are so far out of excuses, I don't even care if they finally have a good one. I also have to wonder if there are other factories out there that are shuttered in these difficult times that could actually get back up and running to build the ventilators and help people stay employed, rather than shut down manufacture of what is actually an essential product. In my case I can drive the car and live without the part, but what about work trucks? First responder vehicles??? Or just normal people who need their vehicle for transportation to get to the many essential jobs. Not everyone has backup cars like I do. Dealers are going to run out of loaners. I really hope the ventilator manufacturing actually helps someone, but it doesn't change the fact that GM parts supply is an inexcusable horror show.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Picked the car up from the dealer still unfixed since they might shut down and it could be months before the gasket comes in. I drove it home and noticed unusually poor fuel economy, then it went into regen (that part was expected but but the mpg is usually great until it regen actually kicks in). Even after the regen economy seemed off so I took it out on the highway a while ... it struggled to get 50 mpg on a 25-mile stretch where I usually get 60-65mpg. Then for the last 25 or so miles before I got home it improved and seemed more normal. Weird. No CEL at all still. The car was still driving great and getting great fuel economy when I dropped it off, so I don't really understand what transpired. The invoice says they inspected the EGR cooler and found excessive buildup in it as well as the valve. Upsetting to say the least since this is not an abused car, it's on the highway all the time and I shouldn't be having these issues. This could be related to my regen issue but as mentioned before I'm guessing it is a result, like the regens, and not a cause, so once fixed it will clog again. But I probably have months to wait until it's fixed so I guess I'll hold off on theories. I hope the lousy mpg isn't something that is going to continue.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

Well it is good to know that a benefit is to be had by cleaning both your egr valve and the egr cooler .... At least you now know....

I plan to.replace my egr valve and clean up the existing one and out it on the shelf ...

Jeff


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Picked the car up from the dealer still unfixed since they might shut down and it could be months before the gasket comes in. I drove it home and noticed unusually poor fuel economy, then it went into regen (that part was expected but but the mpg is usually great until it regen actually kicks in). Even after the regen economy seemed off so I took it out on the highway a while ... it struggled to get 50 mpg on a 25-mile stretch where I usually get 60-65mpg. Then for the last 25 or so miles before I got home it improved and seemed more normal. Weird. No CEL at all still. The car was still driving great and getting great fuel economy when I dropped it off, so I don't really understand what transpired. The invoice says they inspected the EGR cooler and found excessive buildup in it as well as the valve. Upsetting to say the least since this is not an abused car, it's on the highway all the time and I shouldn't be having these issues. This could be related to my regen issue but as mentioned before I'm guessing it is a result, like the regens, and not a cause, so once fixed it will clog again. But I probably have months to wait until it's fixed so I guess I'll hold off on theories. I hope the lousy mpg isn't something that is going to continue.


Actually the partly blocked EGR might have been causing you to have INCREASED MPG, and cleaning it may well be the reason for the drop. The EGR has zero benefit for efficient operation of the engine, absolutely zero benefit, but plenty of problems are created by dumping dirty exhaust back in the intake side.. and clogging up EGRs is not unique to this engine, it is ALL Diesels that have them (and some Gas engines as well, such as my 1996 Saturn which occasionally sticks from soot). 
The "fix" many people with the early emissions Cummins trucks employ is to unplug the EGR and live with the MIL, it's not legal to do so, but the engine runs fine, and MPG goes UP. You can't do that in this engine, nor any of the newer cars, as the EPA demanded that there be consequences for any emissions issue, and that is where the countdowns and limp mode comes from, government mandated making your car LESS reliable and more of a hassle... all the more reasons for driving the old cars, which are legal and have NO emissions of any kind. The irony here is they government effort to clean the air may well end up doing just the opposite, as people move to keep older cars on the road longer. Typical government making the problem worse. 

BTW way, your MPGs numbers are much higher than mine, and I'm not getting the frequent regens.. that is interesting. Perhaps yours is running lower EGTs and thus not doing a passive regen, that might explain higher MPG and the frequent regens.. I do notice my wife's car runs higher EGTs than mine, and it does fewer regens.. post recall I'm seeing mine now run a higher EGTs and the regen interval has also gone up. What are your typical EGTs?


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Actually the partly blocked EGR might have been causing you to have INCREASED MPG, and cleaning it may well be the reason for the drop. The EGR has zero benefit for efficient operation of the engine, absolutely zero benefit, but plenty of problems are created by dumping dirty exhaust back in the intake side.. and clogging up EGRs is not unique to this engine, it is ALL Diesels that have them (and some Gas engines as well, such as my 1996 Saturn which occasionally sticks from soot).
> The "fix" many people with the early emissions Cummins trucks employ is to unplug the EGR and live with the MIL, it's not legal to do so, but the engine runs fine, and MPG goes UP. You can't do that in this engine, nor any of the newer cars, as the EPA demanded that there be consequences for any emissions issue, and that is where the countdowns and limp mode comes from, government mandated making your car LESS reliable and more of a hassle... all the more reasons for driving the old cars, which are legal and have NO emissions of any kind. The irony here is they government effort to clean the air may well end up doing just the opposite, as people move to keep older cars on the road longer. Typical government making the problem worse.
> 
> BTW way, your MPGs numbers are much higher than mine, and I'm not getting the frequent regens.. that is interesting. Perhaps yours is running lower EGTs and thus not doing a passive regen, that might explain higher MPG and the frequent regens.. I do notice my wife's car runs higher EGTs than mine, and it does fewer regens.. post recall I'm seeing mine now run a higher EGTs and the regen interval has also gone up. What are your typical EGTs?


Wouldn't the effect on mpgs depend on whether the EGR was stuck open or shut? I could see that cleaning the cooler could decrease mpg because I always thought lower intake temperatures = lower mpg. And if was clogged it would just bypass and send hotter gasses into the intake, which as far as I understand, would lead to better mpg. I don't know how much they cleaned, but I assume they would have cleaned out the valve at least. They listed both the cooler and valve to be replaced, whenever the gasket comes. That would certainly be disappointing if the clean EGR valve is what is killing my mpg. I kind of doubt that because I took this car to Cincinnati and back starting when it had 500 miles on it and I got 66.1 mpg for the out and back trip of 1,200 miles. At around 4,000 miles I took it on another trip of 700 miles and got 66 mpg. So I have to think there is more at play here, since basically new out of the box the car was getting mid-60s mpg on the highway. It definitely goes up and down depending on weather, traffic, fuel, and my speed, but today was noticeably off ... I was going 60 mph on a stretch that is part of my commute, so I am very used to what I should see on the economy tab (the one with the graph-like bars). On the way home of that loop, it seemed a little more consistent with normal, on a crappy rainy day. The other thing I've considered is if something was unplugged long enough, maybe it had to relearn. In that case I would expect it to eventually get back to normal and stay that way. 
On a side note while I was getting lower mpg I noticed the car kept going into negative boost ... serious negative boost at idle, and slight negative boost on the highway off the throttle. The boost numbers also seemed to go back to normal in the last 20 miles. That could also be EGR related but I definitely don't think it is normal.
My EGTs, on the highway are usually around 600, give or take, for EGT sensor #1. Both sensors downstream read about 50 degrees lower than that. I have wondered if they are on the low side, leaving me without passive regens. I did not notice any particular deviation from normal today, though I wasn't watching super closely.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Actually the partly blocked EGR might have been causing you to have INCREASED MPG, and cleaning it may well be the reason for the drop. The EGR has zero benefit for efficient operation of the engine, absolutely zero benefit, but plenty of problems are created by dumping dirty exhaust back in the intake side.. and clogging up EGRs is not unique to this engine, it is ALL Diesels that have them (and some Gas engines as well, such as my 1996 Saturn which occasionally sticks from soot).
> The "fix" many people with the early emissions Cummins trucks employ is to unplug the EGR and live with the MIL, it's not legal to do so, but the engine runs fine, and MPG goes UP. You can't do that in this engine, nor any of the newer cars, as the EPA demanded that there be consequences for any emissions issue, and that is where the countdowns and limp mode comes from, government mandated making your car LESS reliable and more of a hassle... all the more reasons for driving the old cars, which are legal and have NO emissions of any kind. The irony here is they government effort to clean the air may well end up doing just the opposite, as people move to keep older cars on the road longer. Typical government making the problem worse.


An aside on EGRs, I have three other cars with them: my 1987 Mercedes and both my 2005 Jeep Liberty diesel and my dad's 05 Liberty diesel (he does not drive it anymore so I have it in my care now). The Mercedes' EGR wouldn't clog but it would fill the intake manifold with soot, and that could lead to poor running and general poorer engine health ... no computer involvement so if a vacuum line happens to come unplugged, you basically run cleaner. With the Jeeps there was a commonly available tune that kept everything intact but kept the valve closed with the exception of overboost conditions should they arise, and a kit to remove everything and then tune. These have both been eliminated by recent raids on the makers of them. Which I understand to the extent that they are technically illegal, but the cost and energy to take these places down seems over the top for the impact. Case in point on the Jeeps, I will just go so far as to say I have experience with one that has been reversibly de-EGRed and one that hasn't. The EGRless one smoked less, got much better mileage, didn't gunk up every sensor, and resulted in visually less sooty oil. The stock one needed a head rebuild at 94k miles. I have also heard of many people who passed smog tests with the EGR disabled, though I'm guessing the NOx level difference is more significant in real-life driving. I understand the concern with NOx, but for some vehicles that aren't driven in densely populated areas where smog formation becomes a big issue, I tend to think it is better to have lower CO2 emissions and less soot everywhere than it is to sacrifice those things for lower NOx. Not to mention the cost of the lower NOx also means shorter engine life, which means more need to manufacturer new parts, new engines, or even new cars (huge environmental cost). Don't get me wrong, I love how the Cruze doesn't smoke or stink, and the concept of the emissions systems. I would like to keep them intact even if I had a choice. It's just an uphill battle with EGR technology. I almost wish we could eliminate the EGR but keep the DPF/DEF, though my guess would be the DPF would overload like mad and the DEF system would have a lot more NOx to cope with. Everyone complains about the DPF and DEF systems, and I know they have glitches, but to me the technology of that seems much kinder to the engine than an EGR (which leads to DPF problems often anyway).


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Interesting. Negative boost is typical when the car is trying to raise EGTs and start a regen, the Gen 1's do it much more noticeably than the Gen 2s. I'll have to monitor more, but I seem to almost always see EGT 2 higher than EGT 1 on highway, steady state. That would indicate some passive regen taking place in the DPF.. that you normally see EGT2 lower seems to validate the frequent regens. Perhaps you have a bad EGT2 sensor that is not bad enough to throw a code, but is telling the ECU no passive regen, and hence regens like crazy.. maybe swap EGT1 and EGT2 and see what happens (I think they are the same sensor).. Certainly unlikely to hurt anything. 

Your spot on about EGR, and that is why there is a push to get lower compression ratio Diesel engines to work an angle to eliminate EGR altogether, as it is a known problem. I don't see any way an open egr would improve MPG, the dirty air is lacking O2, which is the point, as it lowers in cylinder production of NOx, in a Diesel under light load there is excess air, plenty of pressure, and high temperature.. which gets the NOx going, the EGR works by lowering the O2, but the cost is more soot, which fills the DPF.. The cars could run fine without EGR, but the DEF use would go way up and over work the SCR, which is the reasons they still have EGR, but they use less EGR now than they did with the early LNT (non DEF systems) That is why the 2007.5 to 2012 Cummins Dodge trucks had big issues with clogged DPF and wiped out Turbos when an EGR valve would inevitably stick open, the rest was sure to follow in rapid fashion. 

The reason for EGR is not to bring up intake temps, though it can assist with that, it is all about reducing O2, and thus NOx. The Turbo does such a great job of bringing up intake temps, that we have the inter-cooler to make the engine more efficient, because intake temps too high lower efficiency of the engine. The larger the change in temperature in a thermal engine, the more potential for higher efficiency. 

You are absolutely correct about the unplug, and relearn.. that is absolutely the way it works.. the ECU will be adjusting from the baseline values, to the measured values and that can take some time, and that is likely what you are seeing with the lower (but still better than most) MPG.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Interesting. Negative boost is typical when the car is trying to raise EGTs and start a regen, the Gen 1's do it much more noticeably than the Gen 2s. I'll have to monitor more, but I seem to almost always see EGT 2 higher than EGT 1 on highway, steady state. That would indicate some passive regen taking place in the DPF.. that you normally see EGT2 lower seems to validate the frequent regens. Perhaps you have a bad EGT2 sensor that is not bad enough to throw a code, but is telling the ECU no passive regen, and hence regens like crazy.. maybe swap EGT1 and EGT2 and see what happens (I think they are the same sensor).. Certainly unlikely to hurt anything.
> 
> Your spot on about EGR, and that is why there is a push to get lower compression ratio Diesel engines to work an angle to eliminate EGR altogether, as it is a known problem. I don't see any way an open egr would improve MPG, the dirty air is lacking O2, which is the point, as it lowers in cylinder production of NOx, in a Diesel under light load there is excess air, plenty of pressure, and high temperature.. which gets the NOx going, the EGR works by lowering the O2, but the cost is more soot, which fills the DPF.. The cars could run fine without EGR, but the DEF use would go way up and over work the SCR, which is the reasons they still have EGR, but they use less EGR now than they did with the early LNT (non DEF systems) That is why the 2007.5 to 2012 Cummins Dodge trucks had big issues with clogged DPF and wiped out Turbos when an EGR valve would inevitably stick open, the rest was sure to follow in rapid fashion.
> 
> ...


I should actually go through and check that the PID are entered correctly for EGT1 and EGT2, since I seem to see the opposite of what you do ... EGT2 is consistently lower than EGT1, I don't think I have ever seen 2 higher. For me EGT1 is the one that gets very high during an active regen, while EGT2 goes up a bit but is not nearly as dramatic. It's possible I entered the names backwards when I put them in my ScanGauge. Though I thought the first sensor would be the one getting hottest during a regen (in the DOC), which would be consistent with my observations. If my PIDs are right, maybe my low EGT2 is contributing to my lack of passive regen. I can't really imagine what would physically cause lower exhaust gasses between two parts of the DOC/DPF. Maybe I misunderstand passive regens, but I thought they didn't require any input from the computer or anything to be initiated ... I thought they just happened naturally when EGTs rise to a normal level on the highway.
I did take the car on a 79-mile out-and-back highway drive yesterday (been a little cooped up here so I needed a drive anyway) and my fuel economy seemed back to normal for this time of year with 60-70 mph driving. Per the MyChevy App it got 62 mpg for the trip and my DIC looked like it normally does ... both of which I take with a grain of salt based on how off my DIC has been sometimes compared to hand calculation for a tank. But I look for the consistency and trends, accurate or not, and that is what I was seeing before. So either it just needed to relearn its values, or it has reclogged whatever it didn't like having unclogged. I want to say it feels a little faster than before I dropped it off, but I'm pretty sure that has to do with me driving the 62 horsepower car and 70 horsepower car in its absence.
A rep from Chevy Customer Service called me today to follow up about the parts, and at this stage didn't know any more than I do. They said they are going to contact the parts division to find out what the situation is. It apparently is still not listed on back order. Hope they aren't going to tell me its NLA. I can't imagine that seeing as they'd end up having to buy back a lot of cars over a gasket and I doubt they'd want that. I will say they have been really diligent about following up on my case this time.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> "I want to say it feels a little faster than before I dropped it off, but I'm pretty sure that has to do with me driving the 62 horsepower car and 70 horsepower car in its absence"


I got a good chuckle on that one, yep I think that would be it. Just for fun I verified 0-60 in my manual the other night.. 9.3 seconds, and that with traction control limiting torque as I'm still running the studded snow tires. While today there are plenty of cars quicker than that, it was once a pretty standard time for what was known as a muscle car. Yet, none of those cars could do that and also average around 50 MPG. Despite many hassles, these things are technological marvels, and yet that complexity is also leading to some of our frustrations.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> I got a good chuckle on that one, yep I think that would be it. Just for fun I verified 0-60 in my manual the other night.. 9.3 seconds, and that with traction control limiting torque as I'm still running the studded snow tires. While today there are plenty of cars quicker than that, it was once a pretty standard time for what was known as a muscle car. Yet, none of those cars could do that and also average around 50 MPG. Despite many hassles, these things are technological marvels, and yet that complexity is also leading to some of our frustrations.


I've never actually tried a serious 0-60 run in mine but I'm guessing 9 seconds is about the best I could do ... I think they were rated around 8.6, though I've seen lower estimated and GM never published a time. I figure the human component in the manual, at least for someone like me, is going to slow it down. One thing I've wondered in this car is if there is some sort of torque limiter in first, because I always feel like first gear starts to feel useless once the car is moving, whereas second really kicks out a burst of torque that feels like it builds all the way up to 3k+. Of course as a diesel there isn't much point in really revving it high, but first just feels like first gear has a dropoff that the other gears don't have.
I think people get really out of touch with how the definition of "fast" has changed ... at least in the US. A 60s Ferrari 250 GT was 0-60 in 8 seconds, as were some of the Jaguar E-Types. Of course one expects standards to change, and those cars were also not made for straight-line 0-60 times (which people also don't understand), but still. It kind of frustrates me that people think of the Cruze diesels as "slow" and that limited their appeal ... because I've driven slow cars, and even average cars, that make this seem like peppy. Of course it isn't fast, but it sure isn't slow either. Any way you cut it, when you factor in the fuel economy, it's an amazing combination to me. I've had a lot of "regular" cars as rentals, and they were all sluggish compared to this ... fuel economy-wise the best one I had was a Ford Fusion Hybrid, which I drove to Boston and back and got 44 mpg for the trip ... a year later I took the Cruze TD on the same trip and got 66 mpg. I did have a Renault Megane diesel manual in the UK three years ago that was similar to the Cruze on both measures, and it was one of the reasons I bought the Cruze a few months later.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Another customer service agent called Friday and told me they still don't have any idea what to expect on the part. No ETA, but they don't know if it's on backorder or not. They said they will send me an email once a week to provide updates ... "once a week" isn't super inspiring in terms of reflecting that they expect this to take multiple weeks.
Meanwhile I drove the car 80 miles each day yesterday and today, and my fuel economy is definitely still down. Not awful but a solid 5 mpg lower than what I normally see. Been over 300 miles so I would think the ECM has relearned by now. Starting to wonder if I should really be driving it a lot if things are actually clogged up. Other than the fuel economy I don't really notice anything different. The regen cycles and soot levels look the same as before.

Edit: Meanwhile AC Delco EGR cooler gaskets are listed on RockAuto as in stock. If that's the same part maybe I should ask the dealer if I can just buy it on RockAuto.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> Edit: Meanwhile AC Delco EGR cooler gaskets are listed on RockAuto as in stock. If that's the same part maybe I should ask the dealer if I can just buy it on RockAuto.


How much are the gaskets? A couple bucks? You buy them and hand them to the dealer for installation if you want it done quickly.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Barry Allen said:


> How much are the gaskets? A couple bucks? You buy them and hand them to the dealer for installation if you want it done quickly.


About $7. I'm happy to pay that out of pocket if it means not waiting weeks. I'm pretty sure they were not on RockAuto last week, so I might call the dealer first in case it already shipped for them if it just became generally available. Not that it would hurt to have an extra. I do also want to make sure that is the part they're missing; I'm pretty sure that is what they said but it could have been another seal.


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

When mine was replaced my long-term mileage was garbage for a while. I don't remember if I ever checked short term or instantaneous.

I chalked it up to them having to idle the car to temperature and force a regen at the dealership, which I imagine took quite some time.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

phil1734 said:


> When mine was replaced my long-term mileage was garbage for a while. I don't remember if I ever checked short term or instantaneous.
> 
> I chalked it up to them having to idle the car to temperature and force a regen at the dealership, which I imagine took quite some time.


Out of curiosity what do you mean by short-term vs long-term mileage? For trends I usually look at the screen that shows sort of graph bars (each one accounts for about 3 miles) ... with the same commute I've gotten used to what bars I can expect for which chunks of highway (OCD, I know). That's what has been down for me lately that concerns me a bit ... granted, my repair did not get completed, so I probably should wait to see. I'm guessing you're right and the idling and forced regen (plus just general moving the car around from lot to shop while it's there) really knocks out your tank mpg. I would expect the "last 25" and "last 50" numbers to be awful for a while too. I think it also has to relearn the EGR positions and probably some other information, which will throw off economy. Between those I'm trying to prepare myself not to have a heart attack in the first few miles when I get it back!


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

I pretty much always leave the last 450 mile average up. Mine normally hovers around 54 but after the recall was around 49 until I had gone almost all of those 450 miles again. 

That tells me there was probably a huge and terrible outlier data point from the service.


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## cdccjohnson (Apr 10, 2018)

I have reused a variety of caskets over the years with no issues. They could also a bit of gasket sealer. I know they are trying to follow the GM book but if its really causing you issues, this would be what I would suggest they do. 

Since this engine is used in Europe, you could also expand your search to international parts sources.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

It depends on the gasket - but GM is a large fan of MLS gaskets, which generally are very reusable.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

I tried to order the EGR cooler gasket from Rock Auto today and it let me put one in the cart, but when I tried to proceed to checkout, it removes the item and says "not available". So my guess would be third-party parts stores are in the same non-descript limbo that GM leaves everyone else in. I shouldn't be surprised, but sometimes I just step back and honestly cannot believe GM gets away with being this horrendous on parts supply. With zero accountability. There are NLA parts on a two-year-old car under warranty, and all they have to say about it is a scripted "we're sorry for the inconvenience" for the 40th time.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> I tried to order the EGR cooler gasket from Rock Auto today and it let me put one in the cart, but when I tried to proceed to checkout, it removes the item and says "not available".


Sounds like Rock Auto does a lot of drop shipping. Their inventory says they have a part and when you order they just tell some other place to ship it directly to you. Rock Auto inventory is wrong because they didn't know GM doesn't have it until you tried to place the order.

I had the same problem years ago when trying to order a new ignition switch for a 1985 BMW motorcycle. I waited three weeks for the order to ship and finally called them only to find they looked through their computer system and turns out they didn't have the switch and couldn't ship it. It then cost 3x as much to get it from BMW, shipped from somewhere in Europe.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Barry Allen said:


> Sounds like Rock Auto does a lot of drop shipping. Their inventory says they have a part and when you order they just tell some other place to ship it directly to you. Rock Auto inventory is wrong because they didn't know GM doesn't have it until you tried to place the order.
> 
> I had the same problem years ago when trying to order a new ignition switch for a 1985 BMW motorcycle. I waited three weeks for the order to ship and finally called them only to find they looked through their computer system and turns out they didn't have the switch and couldn't ship it. It then cost 3x as much to get it from BMW, shipped from somewhere in Europe.


I think that is likely the case. I had a similar experience a few years ago when I needed power steering hoses for my Jeep. NLA from Chrysler but several aftermarket sites listed them ... but they would all say "not available" when you tried to order. I ended up having the leaking part rebuilt by a local hydraulic shop for $50 or maybe less (the factory line set was almost $400). That was when the Jeep was over 10 years old, though.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

BodhiBenz1987 said:


> I tried to order the EGR cooler gasket from Rock Auto today and it let me put one in the cart, but when I tried to proceed to checkout, it removes the item and says "not available". So my guess would be third-party parts stores are in the same non-descript limbo that GM leaves everyone else in. I shouldn't be surprised, but sometimes I just step back and honestly cannot believe GM gets away with being this horrendous on parts supply. With zero accountability. There are NLA parts on a two-year-old car under warranty, and all they have to say about it is a scripted "we're sorry for the inconvenience" for the 40th time.


It is sadly not a new problem. Ironically the newer the car, the more difficult to get parts. It seems counter intuitive. Here is why: While still in production, the OEM makes just enough, and not much more, to meet the production demand. The cost of inventory is high, they avoid it as much as possible.. thus getting a part not for production is you competing against the assembly line. That is during normal times... and we are not in normal times.

Reality is that many parts, and sub assemblies now come from China, and they had a long period of shutdown similar to what we are now facing, that interrupted the already crappy supply chain. 

The irony, parts for older cars, especially those produced in large numbers are often the easiest to find, and at most reasonable costs, because the aftermarket has come in and multiple producers are competing for that market. 

Case example, I had a 1999 Chevy Pick-up that had some issues with the clutch hydraulic system. I looked into replacement, it was over $330 at the time, and a long lead item (assuming I could get it, and only the dealership had it). In contrast I can buy the complete clutch hydraulics for my 1962 Land Rover for about $70, and it better quality, not that plastic junk used in the new systems, and there are many suppliers for the Land Rover (they made parts that were interchangeable for models spanning decades of production.

Modern cars go though massive re-designs about every 3-4 years, and as such the ability to have parts span a large production run is more limited, and with a limited demand, comes problems, and for the Diesel, we are talking SUPER limited, especially in the US market. It's a sad business reality I'm afraid.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> It is sadly not a new problem. Ironically the newer the car, the more difficult to get parts. It seems counter intuitive. Here is why: While still in production, the OEM makes just enough, and not much more, to meet the production demand. The cost of inventory is high, they avoid it as much as possible.. thus getting a part not for production is you competing against the assembly line. That is during normal times... and we are not in normal times.
> 
> Reality is that many parts, and sub assemblies now come from China, and they had a long period of shutdown similar to what we are now facing, that interrupted the already crappy supply chain.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I figured everything is "lean" manufacturing these days. And you're right about the constant redesign, and also the more shared parts between makes and models on older cars. The brake master cylinder I bought for my Peugeot is made by Centric and my guess would be isn't exclusive to the model. In the old days stuff like that was pretty basic and not wildly model-specific. It's also fair to consider I'm used to Mercedes, which is probably the gold standard for supporting older models. Sometimes the dealer has to get things from Germany, but they are still in stock and the variety available is insane. And of course there is the aftermarket on top of that. I'm not sure if it is the same for parts on their newer vehicles. Maybe it's as bad as GM.
It still seems bizarre not to have a little gasket for what seems to be a frequent-fail item, even if on an uncommon model ... it was enough of a known issue that they made the effort to redesign the housing, and had a housing in stock. I get the advantages of lean manufacturing. but it also has some serious vulnerabilities. My experience between my 2005 Jeep and this car are night and day in terms of parts availability, and both are low-production vehicles. The Jeep had more issues while under warranty but I never had to wait even a week for a part. Some of that may have been that times were simply better, pre-recession bubble, and allowed the lean model to work perfectly. Whereas in the two years I've had the Cruze, GM has dealt with the shutdown of a major factory, a major parts-workers' strike, and a global pandemic.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

Some good news, the gasket finally arrived this morning ... I was pleasantly surprised because I figured I'd be waiting even longer than that with everything going on. I dropped the car off this morning and hopefully should be done tomorrow ...they said it could be done today but they close at 2 each day now. They were going to give me a loaner but I stupidly forgot to bring my credit card, but they paid for a Lyft instead which was nice. I'm really hoping this helps my regen issue, but even if not it will be nice to have this done since it at least rules out the EGR being the culprit. It will be interesting to see if anything changes ... hopefully I won't take a fuel economy hit with the EGR air flowing freely, though as mentioned it got the same great mpg when new and I don't think it came pre-clogged from the factory haha. For what it's worth the CEL never did come on in the 2-3 weeks I've had it back while waiting for the part. I'm not sure if it set any more DTCs but not enough to trigger the light.


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## BodhiBenz1987 (Jan 13, 2018)

I got the car back today and so far everything seems fine. I didn't notice anything dramatically different one way or the other, though it is doing the same negative boost thing at idle that it did right after last time I got it back (I assume it's still learning the new valve). Time will tell about my regen issue. The invoice describes the cooler and valve as "heavily clogged" ... I don't know how long it took to get that way or what I can do to prevent it happening again in 15-20k miles. I am on the highway a lot which I thought would help, but maybe I'm a little too mpg-obsessed and need to really put my foot in it a bit more often. It may have been a residual effect of the other dealer putting the wrong oil in my car, too ... I am not sure if anyone ever physically inspected the EGR before this. Now that I know it can clog without a CEL or obvious symptoms, it seems like taking it out every 10k miles or so and inspecting it myself is a good idea. On the bright side I am overall very pleased with this dealer in my first experience with them.


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