# Gearing up for an install BUT...



## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

I'm a newb in the audio department. I sold my s10 with an mtx thunderform and a deck, but stock speakers. The sub added depth to the sound, but a competition winner it was not. I have spent the last two or so weeks reading a lot of posts in the forum. I think I have a rough idea on what I want but would like to get input from people who have way more experience than me. I just got a 2014 with mylink and Im going to keeping the HU, so I need a line out converter. I was looking at the AudioControl lc2i, and that sounds great, but there is a lot of info on the PAC AA-GM44. I know the PAC is plug and play, and I would be splicing the rear door speakers for the lc2i, but its like 3x as much. Why, and is it worth it? 

Next, I found a post from iTz SADISTIK that had a list of some good wires and things I would need, half way down this page. I am considering just building this as my system but going with an MDF box. It seems to fit my $5-600 overall budget nicely. Im not looking for a COMP system, just something nice to add a bottom note. Can someone explain to me if I should spend 3x as much on XtremeRevolution's $195 10 inch mdf box (plus $80 shipping) instead of driving down to the local audio store and getting a $60-$80 box? Im not trying to be rude, I just dont know if the overall SQ improvement from one box to the other, for me, would be worth the additional $200. But if it is hands down noticeably better, and justifiable for a non-audiophile, I shall go with the best. 

I would like some suggestions on a 10 inch sub and amp combo. Much respect to XtremeRevolution and his wisdom, but I know that if XR was here, he might tell me to get a non car audio marketed sub. BUT there are 2 reasons to why I DO want a car audio sub.

#1, *sigh* I AM a brand wh0r3. Sorry, I am.

B) A friend of a friend, might be able to get me an amp and sub at cost, maybe other misc parts too. So if there is a nice combo I could go with, and get it at cost that would be great but since its a friend of a friend, I dont want to hold my breath. If for some odd reason it doesn't work out, I still want it to be in budget. (unless you want to suggest a retail and a wholesale combo ) Im trying to find out tomorrow if there is any brands he would not be able to get at cost.
Side note - that Alpine MRV-M500 Mono subwoofer amplifier, looks sweet as heck. 

I would like the sub and box to be removable, for all the gas saving road trips I will be going on now. Are there any special considerations I should take?

My types of music I listen to in no particular order:

Underground Hip Hop example or example
Reggae-ish example 
Metal with double bass pedal example
Classic Rock
Top 40 radio
Uh, so I guess almost everything except good 'ol country. Girlfriend has her own car for that.


Sorry for the long winded post and all my ignorance, and thank you in advance.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

The pac works and a cheaper option xtreme has stated the lc2i is a better option tho not a upgrade you need to make. Wiring just buy everything from knu koncepts. Xtremes box is higher in cost due to he's building it not a automated machine and you will change cars/setups before that box will break. If you have the tools build your own super easy, and will be better then a shops box but still below Xtremes quality just due to experience. If your so dead set on a brand name there's no wrong in that. As long as your aware that your paying more for less. Not sure what's out now, but many years back I had a alpine type r with their 500 Watt amp. It's actually not a bad setup for what it is. I'd probably just go with that. 

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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Is the Rockford alpine combo a decent setup? If I buy a $80 box, I could spend about $300 on sub and woofer.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

It's a decent setup. Keep in mind that I posted that in 10 minutes so I was flying through amazon. We can probably find components for similar or cheaper costs as well. Stick with Knukonceptz as already stated. Best bang for your buck. Investing in a box isn't worthless as you can resell for years to come. The custom boxes for my infiniti were hard to find and still retailed for $200 10 years later. Just saying. There isn't an issue with buying an off the shelf box but I would recommend strengthening and/or resealing it. I have no problem helping you shop. You give me your budget and phone number and I'll gladly talk to you about what you've had before, what you're looking for now and the differences between things like 2ohm and 4ohm subs. Anything you want to know. If, for whatever reason, I can't honestly answer you I will get you the right answer.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Christr15 said:


> I'm a newb in the audio department. I sold my s10 with an mtx thunderform and a deck, but stock speakers. The sub added depth to the sound, but a competition winner it was not. I have spent the last two or so weeks reading a lot of posts in the forum. I think I have a rough idea on what I want but would like to get input from people who have way more experience than me. I just got a 2014 with mylink and Im going to keeping the HU, so I need a line out converter. I was looking at the AudioControl lc2i, and that sounds great, but there is a lot of info on the PAC AA-GM44. I know the PAC is plug and play, and I would be splicing the rear door speakers for the lc2i, but its like 3x as much. Why, and is it worth it?
> 
> Next, I found a post from iTz SADISTIK that had a list of some good wires and things I would need, half way down this page. I am considering just building this as my system but going with an MDF box. It seems to fit my $5-600 overall budget nicely. Im not looking for a COMP system, just something nice to add a bottom note. Can someone explain to me if I should spend 3x as much on XtremeRevolution's $195 10 inch mdf box (plus $80 shipping) instead of driving down to the local audio store and getting a $60-$80 box? Im not trying to be rude, I just dont know if the overall SQ improvement from one box to the other, for me, would be worth the additional $200. But if it is hands down noticeably better, and justifiable for a non-audiophile, I shall go with the best.
> 
> ...


So you want something that will sound great with natural bass in classic rock but you are dead set on car audio brands? Just how much are you willing to pay for the name? You're already paying for the markup, and now you're going to compromise sound as well.

If you wanted a good sub to fit that price point, TC Sounds Epic 10". Find it on parts-express.com.

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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> So you want something that will sound great with natural bass in classic rock but you are dead set on car audio brands? Just how much are you willing to pay for the name? You're already paying for the markup, and now you're going to compromise sound as well.
> 
> If you wanted a good sub to fit that price point, TC Sounds Epic 10". Find it on parts-express.com.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


Ok well, I'm not as dead set on a car audio brand as I thought I was. The way it sounds is that car audio value is way worse than I had initially thought. Staying around the sub and amp combined total of $300ish, does the sq/value ratio vastly improve? What options should I look at?


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/36-audio-electronics/11204-sq-car-audio-thread-v2.html

go with whats there spend about a grand give or take a little bit, and theres your entire install. plain and simple.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Have read that before, made my head spin. Not looking to set up mid and tweeters yet, just a sub at the moment. I don't remember seeing any sub specific recommendations there, but I'll look again later tonight.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Get the tc sounds sub that was suggested. They make good stuff, or some image dynamic subs won't go wrong with either. But chances are after you add a sub and amp for it, your going to want more sound upfront from your speakers. So doing it all at once will save time down the road. 

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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

I'll always argue the sound quality position. I just don't think my ears really care that much about crystal clear audio. I've always been fine with brand name components. Markup is only added if you purchase through a normal retailer. Through enough web searching and knowing where to look you can pretty much get rid of most markup. (company's still have to make money) You can't tell me the non name brands don't have their own markup, how could the company be in business??? 

Either way you go it's your system so do what you want and be happy.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> I'll always argue the sound quality position. I just don't think my ears really care that much about crystal clear audio. I've always been fine with brand name components. Markup is only added if you purchase through a normal retailer. Through enough web searching and knowing where to look you can pretty much get rid of most markup. (company's still have to make money) You can't tell me the non name brands don't have their own markup, how could the company be in business???
> 
> Either way you go it's your system so do what you want and be happy.


They say your ability to tell sound quality is only as good as the best speakers you've ever heard, which are always going to be outside of the car audio environment. 

It's not about markup, it's about paying for a brand name. When you buy a JL Audio sub, for example, a good 30-50% of that cost is pure marketing and brand name. This is why a TC Epic 10/12 blows away the W6 in all metrics for less. 

Companies like TC Sounds, Dayton, Peerless, SEAS, and so forth don't dump gobs of money into marketing, because the buyers of those brands know exactly what the numbers mean, are prepared to measure those drivers, and know how to design systems. Your average "enthusiast" reviews car audio equipment with phrases such as "slams" and "bumps." They refer to SPL subs with stiff suspensions and stupid heavy moving mass as "sq" subs. I've heard kicker thrown into that categorization as well, and I don't mean old school subs either. As a result, companies need to dump gobs of marketing into their products to convince buyers to buy them. I once had a conversation with a rep for PHD, a maker of boutique drivers. When I questioned him about the sound, he had absolutely nothing as far as proof. Not one frequency response graph, no harmonic distortion plots, no t/s parameters, no spectral delay, nothing. NADA. Instead, he wanted me to believe that a 3-way component set with a passive crossover that used iron core inductors and electrolytic caps was worth $900.

Meanwhile, I built a home theater speaker with Fountek NeoCD ribbon tweeters, Tang Band titanium cone neo mids, a Dayton reference series woofer, and CNC cut MDF panels for under $800. I was using 14 gauge air inductors, solid state capacitors, and ceramic resistors. My crossovers alone were over $250 and that's just raw materials. 

Again, with big brand names, you pay for the marketing and the name. You will never realize just how badly you are getting ripped off until you hear a system properly designed with raw drivers.

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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't think you understood me when I said my hearing is crappy. Has nothing to do with the speakers. I can't hear.

And I'll repeat that you pay markup when you buy from retailers not nearly 40% or even 15% when you go wholesale etc or off a kid on ebay who decided to spend more money on something else. There's always going to be markup regardless of brand or where you buy. How much is just like you put it but not nearly as high through other channels.

Andrei most of us are average. I like knowing the high end of things but at the end of the day I'm sticking with what I know and that keeps me content


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> I don't think you understood me when I said my hearing is crappy. Has nothing to do with the speakers. I can't hear.
> 
> And I'll repeat that you pay markup when you buy from retailers not nearly 40% or even 15% when you go wholesale etc or off a kid on ebay who decided to spend more money on something else. There's always going to be markup regardless of brand or where you buy. How much is just like you put it but not nearly as high through other channels.
> 
> Andrei most of us are average. I like knowing the high end of things but at the end of the day I'm sticking with what I know and that keeps me content


You didn't say you have hearing problems. You said that you don't think your ears care for crystal clear audio. Usually, that is interpreted as 'I can't tell the difference," not "I have hearing problems."

Again, I am NOT referring to markup. I can understand your hearing issues but I was very clear on exactly why big name brands are more expensive.

Most of us are not rich, or we wouldn't be driving a working class economy car. It is for this reason that I have made the suggestions I have and produced the articles I have on this forum; so the limited funds people have get them the best value they possibly can get. If you can get more bang for the buck spending less, that is a no-brainer, unless one of your top priorities is showing off your system to people who don't know ohms from watts. I repeat: none of what I suggested is expensive; it is simply performs better and sounds better and is of higher quality than a car audio labeled component for the exact same price. 

I have offered system designs to many people on this forum in my nearly 11k posts here that have given them sound that they'd otherwise have paid 3-5x as much to get from car audio labels. If you're the kind who prefers to pay 3-5x as much for the same part, by all means blow your money for a name brand, but just about everyone else I've designed systems for was beyond appreciative of the results they achieved on their modest budget with the designs I've published.

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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

So I'm on the fence. What amp would I need to run the tc sounds epic 10? It says 500 rms in the stats but also "Matched with just 300 watts, the EPIC will surprise even the most critical audiophile". Is that saying on the low side of its power capabilities, it still sounds great? Also, a 0.7 sealed box?

Is this a good choice for an amp?


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

I'd go with this http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_43836_Precision-Power-PPI-BK650.1D.html or if you got a couple extra bucks, get the bk1800.1 one cheap on the price and decent quality.  But for a 500 Watt mono block amp pretty much any will suffice. Just don't buy a boss or Jensen type stuff. 

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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

I'd want to read more about the stress tests done on those components, their warranties etc

I get what you're saying Andrei but it's like trying to convince me to buy Abarth vs Chevy or something like that. I know chevy but I don't know Abarth and would not switch regardless if it were a flying car 200 MPG 


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> I'd want to read more about the stress tests done on those components, their warranties etc
> 
> I get what you're saying Andrei but it's like trying to convince me to buy Abarth vs Chevy or something like that. I know chevy but I don't know Abarth and would not switch regardless if it were a flying car 200 MPG
> 
> ...


For what purpose? If you want to get technical why don't you look at all the brand name component speakers and find out what speaker they really are without the branding, as most are just rebranded and have fudged up specs one example off the top of my head iirc the alpine type x tweeter were based off a vifa/scanspeak ring radiator. Andrei can correct me if I'm wrong as he's much more knowledgeable in that area. Warranties on speakers are pretty pointless imo if you know the specs of the drivers and understand thermal/mechanical limits then there shouldn't be an issue needing warranty. A pro audio driver will always have every spec needed to know available as opposed to the vague specs that come with most alpine, jl audio etc 

But let's not get into a pissing match about pro audio drivers and name brand component sets. You can't go wrong with either choice all depends on what your willing to pay. And the time and effort you want to put into a stereo setup. 

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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

giantsfan10 said:


> For what purpose? If you want to get technical why don't you look at all the brand name component speakers and find out what speaker they really are without the branding, as most are just rebranded and have fudged up specs one example off the top of my head iirc the alpine type x tweeter were based off a vifa/scanspeak ring radiator. Andrei can correct me if I'm wrong as he's much more knowledgeable in that area. Warranties on speakers are pretty pointless imo if you know the specs of the drivers and understand thermal/mechanical limits then there shouldn't be an issue needing warranty. A pro audio driver will always have every spec needed to know available as opposed to the vague specs that come with most alpine, jl audio etc
> 
> But let's not get into a pissing match about pro audio drivers and name brand component sets. You can't go wrong with either choice all depends on what your willing to pay. And the time and effort you want to put into a stereo setup.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


You are right, some are rebranded! Like lightning audio (a rockford fosgate company) and generally, yes, warranties can be useless but I've used them in the past. Not sure I agree with vague specs on Alpine or JL given that Alpine amps come with an output certificate. I would agree on brands like JVC or Sony though!

Time and effort is a huge part too! I would definitely consider IDQ subs over my Alpine subs for the accuracy of the bass. This I can feel. Speakers on the other hand, regardless of my hearing issues lol, doesn't matter much as my windows are usually down.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> You are right, some are rebranded! Like lightning audio (a rockford fosgate company) and generally, yes, warranties can be useless but I've used them in the past. Not sure I agree with vague specs on Alpine or JL given that Alpine amps come with an output certificate. I would agree on brands like JVC or Sony though!
> 
> Time and effort is a huge part too! I would definitely consider IDQ subs over my Alpine subs for the accuracy of the bass. This I can feel. Speakers on the other hand, regardless of my hearing issues lol, doesn't matter much as my windows are usually down.


Since you weren't able to make it to Lordstown at the beginning of the month, you may want to find a local who had XR's help and see if you can hear the difference. There was a 9 person line at one point to see what his system sounded like. No trunk rattles or any of that high school mentality of loud = win garbage. You can hear each person individually in the song that's how clear it was.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Sounds good, hope you don't think trunk rattle resides with brand name components. I'm sure you don't and I'm glad Andrei took the time to prevent said problem. In fact I saw an Altima today with good base but terrible rattle!!! It totally defeats installing a system lmao


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

XR, I see there is a "sale" this weekend on the TC Sounds Epic 10,  I think im going to pull the trigger. What size box should I put this in? I see the cabinet size says 0.25 ft3 but that doesn't seem correct for a car sub box. The only other volume measurement I see is Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)1.75 ft.³ and I dont think that is it either, seems too large. A lot of the comments below say 0.7. thoughts?

Also , is that alpine sub will work for it, correct? Like I mentioned before, I might be able to get it at cost, so it wont be quite as expensive. I dont want to tarnish the SQ with a sub par amp, but I do like the looks and size of the Alpine MRV M500, plus it might help satisfy the brand wh0r3 in me.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> Sounds good, hope you don't think trunk rattle resides with brand name components. I'm sure you don't and I'm glad Andrei took the time to prevent said problem. In fact I saw an Altima today with good base but terrible rattle!!! It totally defeats installing a system lmao
> 
> 
> Sent from iFail Mobile


 But making loud noises and having parts of the car fall off is fun and most the words are meaningless in the new generations songs. In short, he is taking components that perform in some cases 3X's better than what is "Marketed as car audio only" to build these kits. Unless you cut all the grilles off the doors and pillar, nobody knows what you have hidden in there. Unless you came across all the parts for free "legally", the value is not gonna match up to the price.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Like I said in a previous post, your mono amp isn't that important, the driver, and box are going to make the biggest affect on Sq get a reputable brand 500-1000 rms amp. And you will be fine. 

Also as for amps, all you get choices for its tune alpine etc. And then the online "boutique" brands such as audioque, digital designs. Again more value for your dollar but most of those are higher powered which you don't need. Go with the ppi I posted. I've got their 4 channel amp and they do rated power and are great value for the dollar. 

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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> I'd want to read more about the stress tests done on those components, their warranties etc
> 
> I get what you're saying Andrei but it's like trying to convince me to buy Abarth vs Chevy or something like that. I know chevy but I don't know Abarth and would not switch regardless if it were a flying car 200 MPG
> 
> ...


The thing is you don't get what I'm saying and until you are able to see drivers as a speaker designer, you never will. You're asking for stress tests as if these drivers are designed to be abused by punk kids. What will a stress test show? How much heat the voice coil can dissipate, which is only relevant in a vented enclosure? The power rating in watts is nothing more than a thermal limit. Any decent subwoofer will bottom out long before the thermal limits are reached in a sealed enclosure. 

You flat out admitting that proof and numbers mean nothing isn't very conducive to a discussion of the merits of one subwoofer against another. If the proof means nothing to you, what's the point? The TC Epic 10 has a moving mass similar to the IDQ V3 with also a similar xmax, and from what I have seen, better build quality. You've never heard of them because you haven't ventured outside the car audio realm. With driver such as these, you won't find endless amazon and car audio magazine reviews, or marketing fluff to convince you of some BS. It is a raw driver with all specs posted. Those who were at Lordstown heard this sub in a vented enclosure that I custom built. It was a ported box that sounded like a sealed box because the design flattened the impedance peak and created an incredibly low group delay and harmonic distortion. For $180-$200, it is an incredible value. 



iTz SADISTIK said:


> You are right, some are rebranded! Like lightning audio (a rockford fosgate company) and generally, yes, warranties can be useless but I've used them in the past. Not sure I agree with vague specs on Alpine or JL given that Alpine amps come with an output certificate. I would agree on brands like JVC or Sony though!
> 
> Time and effort is a huge part too! I would definitely consider IDQ subs over my Alpine subs for the accuracy of the bass. This I can feel. Speakers on the other hand, regardless of my hearing issues lol, doesn't matter much as my windows are usually down.


IDQ subs were great with the V3 lineup and older. I wouldn't touch an Image Dynamics V4 sub if you paid me to. I gagged when I saw the new T/S specs. Then, the former lead designer of ID affirmed it by also strongly recommending against it. I talk to him from time to time.



Christr15 said:


> XR, I see there is a "sale" this weekend on the TC Sounds Epic 10,  I think im going to pull the trigger. What size box should I put this in? I see the cabinet size says 0.25 ft3 but that doesn't seem correct for a car sub box. The only other volume measurement I see is Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)1.75 ft.³ and I dont think that is it either, seems too large. A lot of the comments below say 0.7. thoughts?
> 
> Also , is that alpine sub will work for it, correct? Like I mentioned before, I might be able to get it at cost, so it wont be quite as expensive. I dont want to tarnish the SQ with a sub par amp, but I do like the looks and size of the Alpine MRV M500, plus it might help satisfy the brand wh0r3 in me.


This sub has a crazy low QTS through a very light cone and very strong motor, so the enclosure requirement is also very small. Keep in mind you have to wire it to either a 1 ohm or 4 ohm load. 

Raw drivers usuallh don't post any enclosure recommendations because they are sold to system designers that then design their own enclosures based on their design requirements. Car audio enclosures are jam packed with compromise. 0.5-0.7 cubic feet is where I'd run it. 0.6 would be ideal, give or take. 

You will bottom out the sub long before you exceed its 500W thermal power handling. Don't worry so much about power. Give it a 300W+ quality amplifier and it will perform very well. The QTS is so low that I wouldn't be surprised if it bottomed out on a 200W dynamic peak.

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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

It won't matter what is said. I'll stick to my Alpine equipment. Does it's job. Personally I don't care what brand someone installs. If they ask for help and like what I've posted that's their decision. Argue all day long, go ahead, if OP wants the help PM me I'm done posting in here and having you scoff at the posts. Give your input on your stuff and I'll do mine. OP will make his/her decision. 

Either way OP goes the system will sound just fine. You guys remind me of a car salesman trying to sell me an SS when all I came in for was a Cruze.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> It won't matter what is said. I'll stick to my Alpine equipment. Does it's job. Personally I don't care what brand someone installs. If they ask for help and like what I've posted that's their decision. Argue all day long, go ahead, if OP wants the help PM me I'm done posting in here and having you scoff at the posts. Give your input on your stuff and I'll do mine. OP will make his/her decision.
> 
> Either way OP goes the system will sound just fine. You guys remind me of a car salesman trying to sell me an SS when all I came in for was a Cruze.
> 
> ...


You took this from a discussion to a personal matter. It doesn't concern me what you use. However, I gave valid advice others can take to design their systems. At that point, you are free to do as you wish, but who are you to tell me that I shouldn't have discussions? I recommend that you stop getting bent out of shape when people disagree with you or make contradictory statements. I am curious as to why you are offended and storm off whenever I present you with a contradictory viewpoint. 

Your analogy is mostly correct. I'm trying to sell an SS when the OP came in for a Cruze. In this particular case, however, the SS is cheaper than the Cruze. 

I will give my input where I see fit. This is after all a discussion board. I simply believe people can make purchasing decisions on more than "it has worked in the past." You never learn or improve with that kind of mentality. I would know; I was like that not too long ago. 

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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Mr Tamborine man play a song for me , your jingle jangle song .


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)




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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

It's simple, the way you present the info is your way or the highway leaving no room for a secondary opinion. That does not make for a discussion.


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

I disagree with you St. Louis .X is X and he won't compromise his intelligence for you . I was the first to take him on and we have grown to respect our mutual opinions about sound quality . X is in another league altogether .


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

You're right, he is. So half of what he says will not make sense to the people asking for help.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> It's simple, the way you present the info is your way or the highway leaving no room for a secondary opinion. That does not make for a discussion.
> 
> 
> Sent from iFail Mobile


I'm not going to state something as "my way or the highway" unless I am 100% sure that what I'm saying is fact, and when it comes to audio, it is very rare for me to meet anyone that I can have an intellectual discussion with regarding loudspeakers and audio. In that regard, you are correct; this hasn't really been as much of a discussion as it has been me trying to teach you a few things about audio, helping others make more informed recommendations, and giving advice based on technical merits and not just anecdotal opinion. I suppose I should have clarified prior to our "discussion" that my understanding of audio concepts and loudspeakers is such that I design crossover networks, measure raw drivers, and design speakers from the ground up as a side job. So yeah, forgive me if the way I present audio related information does not lend itself to secondary opinions that revolve entirely around anecdotal evidence.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> You're right, he is. So half of what he says will not make sense to the people asking for help.
> 
> 
> Sent from iFail Mobile


Ask the OP if what I've said makes sense so far. For most people, it's enough to know that a seasoned speaker designer is choosing their components and making them recommendations. My goal in most threads is to teach people as well as make recommendations, so I don't always end up being the one responding to threads. As this forum has rapidly grown, I've found it more difficult to stay on top of threads. Heck, I have 15 or so PMs on this forum related to car audio stuff that I haven't had a chance to respond to yet. Time is more and more of a luxury.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Your overwhelming.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

The TC Sounds Epic 10" is worth every penny, X recommended it for me and I love it.
I think Terry Collins has the 10" IDmax SQL Sub and at the 2nd National Cruze meet, even he was wondering "how the heck can this sub hit harder than mine??"

But I'm sure Andrei can recommend a decent sub in the $100 range.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I present audio related information does not lend itself to secondary opinions that revolve entirely around anecdotal evidence.


This right here is why there can't be a discussion. You, and I don't blame you, base everything on numbers and graphs along with sound yes, but what I hear from my system sounds just fine. I see that you are trying to educate but often I feel like you're missing OPs intent in the first place. You have an in depth thread, just point them there!


Sent from iFail Mobile


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

so like 40 comments later, I really only have a few useful bits of info. 
Take a look at the TC sounds epic 10
the PAC is good
The original setup I quoted from Sadistik isnt bad
Brand names, you over pay for


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

My first question is: how much space do you want your box to take up? Looking for form fitting (higher cost) a formed box that sits against your back seat and flush with the inside on the trunk or a standard single or double rectangle/square box? 

I'd start there because if you pick components that won't fit the look you're going for well, it's pointless lol


Sent from iFail Mobile


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Christr15 said:


> Your overwhelming.


_You're_ more than welcome to ask questions to improve _your _understanding. 



iTz SADISTIK said:


> This right here is why there can't be a discussion. You, and I don't blame you, base everything on numbers and graphs along with sound yes, but what I hear from my system sounds just fine. I see that you are trying to educate but often I feel like you're missing OPs intent in the first place. You have an in depth thread, just point them there!
> 
> 
> Sent from iFail Mobile


I base everything on numbers because sound is scientific. There is is a technical explanation to everything you hear and every sound produced in a car, and I have the technical background to explain it and make suggestions based on it. This isn't about what sounds fine and what doesn't to a specific person, but what is the best value for the money spent. That's what it has been from page 2. I recommended steering away from car audio branded subwoofers due to low value and, when the need arose, proceeded to explain why car audio branded drivers are such a low value. 



Christr15 said:


> so like 40 comments later, I really only have a few useful bits of info.
> Take a look at the TC sounds epic 10
> the PAC is good
> The original setup I quoted from Sadistik isnt bad
> Brand names, you over pay for


The PAC is OK. I use it, but only because I don't want to spend $100 on the AudioControl LC2i, which is a far better line out converter. It is simple and requires no splicing into factory wiring, but the quality leaves something to be desired and many people have complained about static noise. You get what you pay for. 

KNU wire is indeed very high quality and highly recommended. 



iTz SADISTIK said:


> My first question is: how much space do you want your box to take up? Looking for form fitting (higher cost) a formed box that sits against your back seat and flush with the inside on the trunk or a standard single or double rectangle/square box?
> 
> I'd start there because if you pick components that won't fit the look you're going for well, it's pointless lol
> 
> ...


Just a side note, without cutting up part of the floor mat, you can't fit a formed box that sits against your back seat in the Cruze. There is a plateau toward the rear that makes this impossible, and makes any rear angled box a waste of space.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Cutting up carpet is not necessarily true. If money is an issue aka tight budget and don't want to build then I suggest these http://www.zenclosures.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=cruze2011 

Used them many times and was happy with their product.


Sent from iFail Mobile


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

For a box, it doesn't really matter, as long as I can take it out if I need to fill my trunk, a square box would be fine.

I first came across the lc2i, but don't you splice the rear door speakers, and run them to the lc2i? My original preference was to use the lc2i, but the pac has a wire harness and I don't have to make any permanent mods. I have not even made my first car payment yet. Do you have fade control with the PAC. I'm going to leave my rear speakers connected.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Those (zen boxes) look good, do you need a shallow mount sub for them? It says air volume is much more than I need, do I need to specify a volume or does the single ten box come smaller already? Also do you know if I specify the correct volume for a single 10, is it still going to span the whole back seat, or are the overall dimensions going to be smaller?


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> For a box, it doesn't really matter, as long as I can take it out if I need to fill my trunk, a square box would be fine.
> 
> I first came across the lc2i, but don't you splice the rear door speakers, and run them to the lc2i? My original preference was to use the lc2i, but the pac has a wire harness and I don't have to make any permanent mods. I have not even made my first car payment yet. Do you have fade control with the PAC. I'm going to leave my rear speakers connected.


I do not believe the PAC has a fade capability. You could always run an EQ if you're amplifying the speakers for this feature or simply leave it up to your stock deck which already has the feature. Unless a LOC specifically states it HAS to be installed in the rear speaker location, and why it would I have no clue, you should be able to mount it behind the stereo or drivers kick plate as the same wires are running in those two locations. 

The only reason you might be required to mount it in the rear is if your system had amplified speakers from a stock amplifier. But I would imagine this would be disabled by you if you were installing an aftermarket amp. Then again some people just wing it.... :dizzy:


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> Those (zen boxes) look good, do you need a shallow mount sub for them? It says air volume is much more than I need, do I need to specify a volume or does the single ten box come smaller already? Also do you know if I specify the correct volume for a single 10, is it still going to span the whole back seat, or are the overall dimensions going to be smaller?


Shallow mount, not necessarily. It's best to research the subwoofer a little bit and find out what others think about the sub in similar boxes. The box dimensions can be real PIA as there are other factors to consider beyond air volume. To be frank, these are well made boxes for the $$ but if you wanted to compare the same sub in a different enclosure built for the sub of course this box is going to "lose". However, if you're like me and don't want to build and or don't want to spend the money then these boxes will work just fine for the average subwoofer. Of course I'm assuming you're not going to spend $600+ on a subwoofer because with that kind of money you ought to be custom designing your system.... just saying.

If you pick a reputable subwoofer (not pyle etc) and use the given air volume on the ratings sheet you'll be fine. Again, not necessarily the "best" setup but it will sound just fine. If you look at their website you can usually do 1-10, 2-10s, 1-12, and sometimes 2-12s. I caution going with 2-12s in such a small air space and personally feel that 2-10s tend to sound much better in a box designed like this. I would suggest, for weight purposes, dropping it down to 1-12 or 1-10. Keep in mind also that 1-10 can sound so much better than 2-12s! The box is easily removable if you have an ounce of strength; it's just bulky and odd shaped. 

The claim by zenclosure that you can mount an amp to the box may be true but it wasn't on the box I had in my Infiniti. 

If you decide to go with this enclosure I can help you determine if the subwoofer you're looking at will function properly. One thing to note, these are designed assuming you have a bare trunk and NO trunk mat installed. If you do you may have fitment issues. Just wanted to caution as some people forget this point.


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> I do not believe the PAC has a fade capability. You could always run an EQ if you're amplifying the speakers for this feature or simply leave it up to your stock deck which already has the feature. Unless a LOC specifically states it HAS to be installed in the rear speaker location, and why it would I have no clue, you should be able to mount it behind the stereo or drivers kick plate as the same wires are running in those two locations.


The PAC connects a T harness right into the back of the stock head unit and pulls signals from all four channels LF, RF, RR, LR. 
I use RR and LR for my Subwoofer Amp and I use LF RF for my Frontstage amp. All four channels on the PAC have their own gain adjustments.

PAC AA-GM44 Picture

The T-Harness does not reach very far and the best place to tuck it is right near the side or on top of the glovebox area. You will see what I mean after you take your dash apart.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

EcoDave said:


> The PAC connects a T harness right into the back of the stock head unit and pulls signals from all four channels LF, RF, RR, LR.
> I use RR and LR for my Subwoofer Amp and I use LF RF for my Frontstage amp. All four channels on the PAC have their own gain adjustments.
> 
> PAC AA-GM44 Picture
> ...


Pretty sure I understand the PAC but not so much the lc2i. I do have to splice speaker wires for it, correct? I just said the back 2 speakers because I wouldn't know where to put the lc2i, besides the trunk, and the rear speakers are closest to de trunk.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

EcoDave said:


> The PAC connects a T harness right into the back of the stock head unit and pulls signals from all four channels LF, RF, RR, LR.
> I use RR and LR for my Subwoofer Amp and I use LF RF for my Frontstage amp. All four channels on the PAC have their own gain adjustments.
> 
> PAC AA-GM44 Picture
> ...


Oh ya, gain control. **** I'm tired lol


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> Pretty sure I understand the PAC but not so much the lc2i. I do have to splice speaker wires for it, correct? I just said the back 2 speakers because I wouldn't know where to put the lc2i, besides the trunk, and the rear speakers are closest to de trunk.


It really doesn't matter where you install it. Having looked at the install manual it acts like any other LOC except that it requires 12v +/ground. Your cheaper ones won't always require 12v power which is why they're output signal, frankly, sucks. I'm rather impressed with the little unit and saw a few SPLs around the 145 range. Fairly impressive for a simple add on to stock. 

My suggestion would be behind the radio. It's easy to identify the 12v source to the stock headunit. It would also be easy to run power to this location, if you didn't want to source from the headunit (IE use a fuse), without having to pull a part several trim pieces (just the 2 on the dash). Unless someone who has tinkered around in the car far more than I have and can give you a good wire for power in the rear. I'm guessing you don't have a multimeter to source your own power?? Sure you can always run 2x18 gauge wires to the install location in the rear but that seems like more work than necessary to get this thing functioning. However, in retrospect, you'll still need to run the RCAs to the rear...... I think it's really going to come down to the simplicity of obtaining 12v power in a rear install. If you can I would say, after all this, to install in the rear and use shorter RCA cables but ONLY if there is power wire readily available. 

The other thing I like about this unit is that it does NOT require a remote signal to turn on. It simply uses the speaker wire to sense the audio signal.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

So, I have been looking and I have 2 different systems I have come up with. It might be possible for me to get some of the products at cost, that is why some of the below say "maybe less";

alpine mrv-m500 amp $144 - maybe less
tc sounds epic 10 $189
audio control lc2i $76 - maybe less
some box
knukonceptz wire
$409 plus box and $100 wiring parts 

or

alpine mrv-m500 amp $144 - maybe less
MTX 5510-44 $120 - maybe less
PAC AA-GM44 $32
some box
knukonceptz wire
$296 plus box and $100 wiring parts


What do you guys think of the two options? If there is some compatibility issue with the MTX or it is a rotten sub, can you let me know? Otherwise I really have no reason to go with one or the other. Also the PAC or Lc2i options are interchangeable so I could do the TC Sounds with the PAC AA-GM44 or vise versa.

Please let me know what you think.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> So, I have been looking and I have 2 different systems I have come up with. It might be possible for me to get some of the products at cost, that is why some of the below say "maybe less";
> 
> alpine mrv-m500 amp $144 - maybe less
> tc sounds epic 10 $189
> ...


I'd have to look at the specs on the subs but I don't have time atm. For $120, you can do better than that MTX subwoofer. After reading up on the LC2I I wouldn't go with the GM harness unless you really need to save the money. But at a $40 difference in price I would suggest waiting until you do have the money. 

You may be able to save on the amp depending on the sub you pick too. However, it has been my experience that the amplifier is the one thing that will set you back.... I would suggest looking into an acoustic foam or fatmat/dynamat but this is something you can do later on too. Not required but depending on your setup you may really need it. If anything on the trunk lid. But again, let's see what you get and how it sounds first.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Christr15 said:


> So, I have been looking and I have 2 different systems I have come up with. It might be possible for me to get some of the products at cost, that is why some of the below say "maybe less";
> 
> alpine mrv-m500 amp $144 - maybe less
> tc sounds epic 10 $189
> ...


For the ~$120 range, the Dayton HO and HF 10 is a MUCH better subwoofer. MTX subs are generally built to be abused. That comes at a huge compromise for sound quality and enclosure space if you want any remotely linear bass and not a one note wonder or boomy sounding box.



iTz SADISTIK said:


> I'd have to look at the specs on the subs but I don't have time atm. For $120, you can do better than that MTX subwoofer. After reading up on the LC2I I wouldn't go with the GM harness unless you really need to save the money. But at a $40 difference in price I would suggest waiting until you do have the money.
> 
> You may be able to save on the amp depending on the sub you pick too. However, it has been my experience that the amplifier is the one thing that will set you back.... I would suggest looking into an acoustic foam or fatmat/dynamat but this is something you can do later on too. Not required but depending on your setup you may really need it. If anything on the trunk lid. But again, let's see what you get and how it sounds first.


Keep one thing in mind. With sealed enclosures, you will always bottom out the subwoofer before you reach its thermal limits unless you severely undersize the box. The wattage rating is always thermal. 

Dynamat is overpriced and severely at that. SoundDeadenerShowdown.com sells CLD tiles that are specifically made to deaden vibrations that cause sound. Acoustic foam is used inside enclosures to flatten the frequency response and impedance peak and make the box "sound bigger" than it is as a result. It has no place in a car audio environment outside of an enclosure.

The only deadening that may be beneficial with one 10" sub of this caliber will be the rear license plate. You're simply not pushing enough air to cause a significant problem. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> For the ~$120 range, the Dayton HO and HF 10 is a MUCH better subwoofer. MTX subs are generally built to be abused. That comes at a huge compromise for sound quality and enclosure space if you want any remotely linear bass and not a one note wonder or boomy sounding box.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The reviews and such suggest the Dayton HO would be better in a smaller car type box. It says it's 600 watt RMS and 4 Ohms. Is that alpine amp going to be too weak to power it at 300 watts RMS x 1 @ 4 Ohms? Or will it be fine? I looked at apps with higher 1 channel RMS output @ a 4 Ohm load and they get quite expensive.


Also Sadistik if you do get a moment, I'm interested in an alternative for the mtx in the name brand department, if you don't mind.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Christr15 said:


> The reviews and such suggest the Dayton HO would be better in a smaller car type box. It says it's 600 watt RMS and 4 Ohms. Is that alpine amp going to be too weak to power it at 300 watts RMS x 1 @ 4 Ohms? Or will it be fine? I looked at apps with higher 1 channel RMS output @ a 4 Ohm load and they get quite expensive.
> 
> 
> Also Sadistik if you do get a moment, I'm interested in an alternative for the mtx in the name brand department, if you don't mind.


The Dayton HO 10 was very widely loved on DIYMA, even among car audio nuts. It's quite a subwoofer. 

300W will be fine for that sub in a sealed box. Like I said, wattage is a thermal rating on subwoofers. You will bottom out before you hit that thermal rating so wattage won't be as important. As long as you aren't clipping, your peak wattage is more important. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

If the Dayton is a Dual 4ohm voice coil sub like I think it is and you're only running one of them... You can only wire it into an 8ohm or 2ohm configuration. The MRV will output 500 watts RMS when it sees a subwoofer configured into a 2ohm. Also keep in mind that the Alpine amp will likely do at least 50 watts better than it's rated. You don't have to be watt for watt on subs and amps as XR pointed out but you won't be running that subwoofer at 300 watts anyways due to the limitations on woofer configuration you'll have to go 2ohm, which in this case and setup, is better. 

I would recommend not turning your gain up on the amp all the way because running an amp at it's max output, over time, can cause it to fail. You likely wouldn't need your gain set that high in the first place anyways but I wanted to warn against it just to be safe.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> If the Dayton is a Dual 4ohm voice coil sub like I think it is and you're only running one of them... You can only wire it into an 8ohm or 2ohm configuration. The MRV will output 500 watts RMS when it sees a subwoofer configured into a 2ohm. Also keep in mind that the Alpine amp will likely do at least 50 watts better than it's rated. You don't have to be watt for watt on subs and amps as XR pointed out but you won't be running that subwoofer at 300 watts anyways due to the limitations on woofer configuration you'll have to go 2ohm, which in this case and setup, is better.
> 
> I would recommend not turning your gain up on the amp all the way because running an amp at it's max output, over time, can cause it to fail. You likely wouldn't need your gain set that high in the first place anyways but I wanted to warn against it just to be safe.


Like this? 

Html formatting error when I link on mobile. Should be fixed.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> Like this?


Like this. I can't open your link for some reason. My guess, work filters. Anyways, here is the chart. When you wire it this way it's called a 2ohm load. The amp automatically adjusts itself based on the load presented. This is the configuration for a mono amplifier. I specify this because I had an old amp which was technically mono but still had "2 channels". Yes, it was a POS. Anyways, if you wired your sub into a 4ohm load, which you can't without multiple subwoofers, the amp is only going to ouput the 300 watts you're talking about. 

This is why guys who only care about Decibel Levels really want to drop down to 1- 1/2 ohm loads. It maxes out their amplifiers. The lower the Ohm value the less resistance the electricity has while traveling over a circuit. When resistance is lowered the amp outputs more power, heat, and distortion. This is why you don't want your gain set to max... distortion and amplifier heat. If you don't know by now, the hotter a circuit is, the quicker it fails when compared to it's cooler counterpart. This is why some will take the same MRV and run it at 4 ohms, to reduce heat. It may also be due to the location they chose to mount the amp. Generally, 2ohm is just fine as well as 4ohm. At 8 ohm you're not going to see much power. 

I've had both 4ohm and 2ohm setups. Don't get mentally set that 2ohm is better because often times it's not. Really has a lot to do with your box, box location, car dimensions and a host of other factors. If you want your brain melted in this area go ahead and ask XR  but don't say I didn't warn you.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Think I fixed that link. Formatting prob when I link from my phone. 

So I think I might have it. Dayton HO, that alpine amp, lc2i. Then I can still expand and put an amp for speakers at a later time if I so feel inclined. Eh? Eh?


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

That or you can invest your money and go with a 5 channel amplifier now.... In such a small car and if you're tying to save space I like the idea behind a 5 channel amp. In my old car I had two amps and loved the setup. I'm going to keep both amps for one reason. The Cruze should have enough space for me to mount it under the passenger seat. I do not want two amps in my trunk again. 

Either way you go will be ok but if you're thinking of amplifying aftermarket speakers I would tell you to research the benefits and negatives of a 5 channel amp vs a 2 amplifier setup. 

Amazon.com : MRX-V70 - Alpine 4-Channel plus Mono Power Amplifier : Vehicle Multi Channel Amplifiers : Car Electronics

This amp outputs roughly 350watts @ 2ohms to a subwoofer and approx 60-70watts to each speaker. I just noticed you mentioned the MRV as the amp you were going with. I can't remember if that was in my original post, although I think it was, you may want to consider the MRX-M55 or MRX-M50. Slightly newer technology for $20 more. Both will work fine. The MRX line is all digital and the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) is a bit better but TBH the $20 price difference won't matter much. The MRX is slightly more powerful but again, won't matter too much in this setup.

On a 2 amp setup keep in mind that you'll still need a dual RCA input (cleaner than hi level input) for the amp. There are two ways to get this input. 1) if the subwoofer amp has an RCA ouput and is outputing a 4 channel signal you're golden (but if you use the L2CI if will only be low-level) 2) from the LOC, but if your LOC is only a 2 channel it won't work as you'll need a 4 channel LOC to properly install the speaker amp.


Sorry I'm really tired and sick atm so if something seems off let me know.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Lost me little on second paragraph, totally gone on last. Btw hope you feel better. TBH electronics is something I have never researched and understood fully but I was under the impression that I could do mylink speaker out to lc2i by tapping front l/r or rear l/r speakers, lc2i splits to sub amp and 2 chan speaker amp. Speaker amp will give me 2 chan, L mid and tweet, R mid and tweet. I will have 2 amps but K.I.S.S. our would I need a loc with more channels?

I guess this all depends on if I decide to get new mids and tweeters, sometime in the future.
I guess I'm asking if this is expendable or not. I'm ok with 2 amps.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> Lost me little on second paragraph, totally gone on last. Btw hope you feel better. TBH electronics is something I have never researched and understood fully but I was under the impression that I could do mylink speaker out to lc2i by tapping front l/r or rear l/r speakers, lc2i splits to sub amp and 2 chan speaker amp. Speaker amp will give me 2 chan, L mid and tweet, R mid and tweet. I will have 2 amps but K.I.S.S. our would I need a loc with more channels?
> 
> I guess this all depends on if I decide to get new mids and tweeters, sometime in the future.
> I guess I'm asking if this is expendable or not. I'm ok with 2 amps.


Sorry, Like I said, brain is foggy atm. To KISS it I would tell you to install the amp/sub with the LC2I and in the future run RCAs from both the 2 channel and the subwoofer out on the LC2I to an electronic crossover. The crossover will allow you to control which frequencies the amplifiers are allowed to see. Thus you can send a low signal to your subwoofer amp, and the mids/highs to your door speaker amplifier. 

This would, IMO, be the easiest method. My prior post, sorry, was geared more towards aftermarket headunits that have 3 separate outputs for amplifiers (Highs, Mids, Sub)

You don't have to pay much attention to the second paragraph. If you're trying to cut down on cost buying the MRV model over the MRX model is just fine. It will accomplish the job you need it to. 

The third paragraph covers different ways to bounce signals around to different amplifiers. Again, I recant part of that given that you are using the LC2I and would simply go with the crossover. They're not hard to install and adjustment of the frequency levels is straightforward. Any audio head on here can help you set the gains/freq level controls on it. 

Here is an example: Amazon.com : Clarion EQS746 1/2 DIN Graphic Equalizer with Built-in Crossover : Vehicle Equalizers : Car Electronics

This is a very basic crossover but will allow you to fine tune the music to your liking. It acts exactly like your cruze on screen Bass, Mid, High adjustments but adding in controls over the frequencies in between those. 

Right now you can adjust the "bass" on your stock deck right? Well sometimes it's not enough or it's too much right? But adjusting the Mid doesn't help. An equalizer will allow you to grab the frequency you don't like and turn it up or down. It's like adding baby steps between the bass-mid and mid-highs.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> Like this. I can't open your link for some reason. My guess, work filters. Anyways, here is the chart. When you wire it this way it's called a 2ohm load. The amp automatically adjusts itself based on the load presented. This is the configuration for a mono amplifier. I specify this because I had an old amp which was technically mono but still had "2 channels". Yes, it was a POS. Anyways, if you wired your sub into a 4ohm load, which you can't without multiple subwoofers, the amp is only going to ouput the 300 watts you're talking about.
> 
> This is why guys who only care about Decibel Levels really want to drop down to 1- 1/2 ohm loads. It maxes out their amplifiers. The lower the Ohm value the less resistance the electricity has while traveling over a circuit. When resistance is lowered the amp outputs more power, heat, and distortion. This is why you don't want your gain set to max... distortion and amplifier heat. If you don't know by now, the hotter a circuit is, the quicker it fails when compared to it's cooler counterpart. This is why some will take the same MRV and run it at 4 ohms, to reduce heat. It may also be due to the location they chose to mount the amp. Generally, 2ohm is just fine as well as 4ohm. At 8 ohm you're not going to see much power.
> 
> ...


Actually, I'll melt your brain a bit. 

The lower impedance, the higher resistance. The voice coil of a subwoofer is in all reality a resistor. Another name for a resistor is a toaster, because toasters essentially take electricity and create a closed circuit to make heat. Same thing here. An impedance of zero is a closed circuit with no resistance, aka "shorted out." The length of wire (voice coil) wrapped around the former is what created a lower resistance than a closed circuit will. Since there is so much wire and it is so thin, the electricity will be lost. As we all know, long lengths of wire cause a voltage drop. Same thing with a voice coil. It is that loss of energy that allows the voice coil react with the magnetic field in order to produce movement that we hear as sound. 

Now, we can take this a step further and note that impedance is rated as nominal. It is only in a very small frequency range that your impedance will be close to the rated minimum. If you have a 4 ohm voice coil, that voice coil will only be 4 ohms for maybe a 5-10hz range. Refer to the impedance plot to see how and why. 

Lower impedance levels require thicker voice coil wiring, which increases moving mass. I prefer higher impedance subwoofers for accuracy, hence my two 18" subwoofers each being 8-ohm drivers, wired to a 4 ohm load at the amplifier. 

Sent from AutoGuide.com App


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## EcoDave (Mar 7, 2013)

For me, trying to read up on Ohms, impedance, resistance, etc. was so confusing that I gave up reading about it.
Instead, found a video on youtube that helped me understand the basics of it...


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

EcoDave said:


> For me, trying to read up on Ohms, impedance, resistance, etc. was so confusing that I gave up reading about it.
> Instead, found a video on youtube that helped me understand the basics of it...


It's a good way to explain the way amplifiers power speakers on a very basic level, but it's a bit backwards in the way it works. In all reality, the lower ohms will present a higher _resistance _to the amplifier, meaning if you take the impedance too far down, it is akin to pushing too hard through one straw and blowing up your lungs, not running out of breath. 

If I were to make a more accurate comparison, I'd compare it to lifting weights. An 8 ohm load will have you bench pressing 75 pounds. You don't have to do as much work, but you're also not moving much mass. A 4 ohm load will have you bench pressing 150 pounds. You will heat up more and you'll move more mass as well. A 2 ohm load will have you bench pressing 300 pounds, if you can, and a 1 ohm load will have you trying to bench press 600 pounds. Can't bench press 600 pounds? Too bad, the weight (resistance) is already there. You'll either set the weight on the safety ledge (protect mode) or it will drop on your neck and kill you.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Do you think I would _need_ a big 3 upgrade for this? I understand it would benefit, but should be fine without? Or should I just wait and see after its all set up?


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

youll probably be fine without it, but if you can swing the extra money to do it your already running power wire so might aswell hook up 3 more wires while your there.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Actually, I'll melt your brain a bit.
> 
> The lower impedance, the higher resistance. The voice coil of a subwoofer is in all reality a resistor. Another name for a resistor is a toaster, because toasters essentially take electricity and create a closed circuit to make heat. Same thing here. An impedance of zero is a closed circuit with no resistance, aka "shorted out." The length of wire (voice coil) wrapped around the former is what created a lower resistance than a closed circuit will. Since there is so much wire and it is so thin, the electricity will be lost. As we all know, long lengths of wire cause a voltage drop. Same thing with a voice coil. It is that loss of energy that allows the voice coil react with the magnetic field in order to produce movement that we hear as sound.
> 
> ...


True. For OP just keep in mind he specified "wired to a 4ohm load" XR is quite correct in stating that an 8ohm sub is more accurate. Just keep in mind that in order to determine what kind of power output the amp will give is based on the OHM load it sees. Hence in XRs scenario (not saying your amp can run his subs) but being wired to a 4ohm configuration your amp would put out 300 watts. If XRs subs could be wired to a 2ohm configuration as we covered earlier your amp will put out 500 watts. 

Subwoofers start at a certain OHM (in XRs case they are 8 ohm subwoofers) and are then wired in either parallel or series which is what creates the "ohm load" the amp sees. The picture I provided is an example of wiring dual 4 ohm voicecoil sub into a 2 ohm load. Glad you pointed out the facts about the sub itself XR.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> Do you think I would _need_ a big 3 upgrade for this? I understand it would benefit, but should be fine without? Or should I just wait and see after its all set up?


To KISS this as well: If you have the money, yes. The big 3 will help stabilize your voltage. The more stable your voltage the better it is for your amplifier and battery. Constant fluctuations can cause battery/amp failure over time. In the next year? Likely not, but as giantsfan10 said, you're already running wire, why not?

Big 3 is cheap and you can even make the kit yourself by buying extra ground wire with your purchase for the amp. A couple of ring terminals, solder, and a blow torch ($15 at wally world) or a soldering iron.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

So I ordered the Dyson HO 10 today. And my "hookup" can get the amp, new in box for $125. So that's cool. Any reason not to go with the Knu Knoceptz kit? If I plan to upgrade the front stage, I can get a fuse block at that time but for now, just go with the inline fuse that comes with this, correct? The whole kit costs as much as 30ft of the 4 gauge by itself. It comes with 18 feet, is that going to be long enough?


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> So I ordered the Dyson HO 10 today. And my "hookup" can get the amp, new in box for $125. So that's cool. Any reason not to go with the Knu Knoceptz kit? If I plan to upgrade the front stage, I can get a fuse block at that time but for now, just go with the inline fuse that comes with this, correct? The whole kit costs as much as 30ft of the 4 gauge by itself. It comes with 18 feet, is that going to be long enough?


You're going to have to post the kit for one simple reason.. I need to see what size fuse it comes with. Also, the type of fuse. I'm not going to say the round fuses won't work but I will say the box shape with spades are POS. Most enthusiast prefer ANL fuses. 

The blocks are not terribly expensive and neither are the fuses. Amazon.com : Earthquake Sound ANL Fuse Block/Holder Complete with 100A ANL Fuse : Vehicle Amplifier Fuses : Electronics This comes with a 100A fuse, I would suggest a 150A fuse. You fuse for the power wire NOT and I repeat NOT the amplifier!!! You would be fine with the 100A fuse though. It would just blow sooner than the 150A. You can even do an ANL fuse block with a digital voltage readout. The block posted vs a $45 block won't matter in your setup, it should be just fine!



























There are two different types of ANL fuses. The straight up larger ones known as ANL and the other ones known as MANL or mini ANL fuses. Either are fine. I prefer the larger ones as they are easier to work with since I have chubby fingers. ANL fuses, small or large, are easier to install in my opinion. Ever tried to fumble around the round ones and have a hard time getting them into the hole? LOL

Spade fuses simply aren't rated high enough for most setups in the first place. If they are, and I believe there's a nasty example somewhere on this forum, I've seen a totally fried power cable. How the car didn't catch on fire is beyond me.

Anyways I hope this answered your question. Post the kit


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> You're going to have to post the kit for one simple reason.. I need to see what size fuse it comes with. Also, the type of fuse. I'm not going to say the round fuses won't work but I will say the box shape with spades are POS. Most enthusiast prefer ANL fuses.
> 
> The blocks are not terribly expensive and neither are the fuses. Amazon.com : Earthquake Sound ANL Fuse Block/Holder Complete with 100A ANL Fuse : Vehicle Amplifier Fuses : Electronics This comes with a 100A fuse, I would suggest a 150A fuse. You fuse for the power wire NOT and I repeat NOT the amplifier!!! You would be fine with the 100A fuse though. It would just blow sooner than the 150A. You can even do an ANL fuse block with a digital voltage readout. The block posted vs a $45 block won't matter in your setup, it should be just fine!
> 
> ...


On Amazon.
Features
18 Feet 4 Gauge Ultra Flex Blue KCA Power Wire
3 Feet 4 Gauge Ultra Flex Black KCA Ground Wire
One inline fuse holder with 80A AGU Fuse
One 17 Foot Black Bassik RCA Cable made from Oxygen Free Copper (OFC)
20 Feet TCA 14 Gauge CCA Speaker Wire
Technical Details
Brand Name: KnuKonceptz
Model: KCA-K4

Do you sleep? Lol, ty.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Concerned about a couple things. 3ft of ground wire isn't much especially if you were going to do the Big 3. The fuse is 80A which is too small and suggests it is a round fuse (as you know I'm not a fan) and the RCAs don't specify if they're twisted and they should be! What's the price of the kit? I'll see if I can build you a kit for the same price or less  or gimme the link!

No, I never sleep. At your service 22/7


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

I tried to link it in my previous post.KnuKonceptz KCA Complete 4 Gauge Amp Installation Kit:Amazon:Car Electronics no biggie if it doesn't work. Just came across it and thought since knu konceptz was where is at, thought that might be good, but originally expected about $100 in wiring.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Hmmmm, let me work on it. The RCAs are NOT twisted and yes, it comes with a round fuse. I think I can still get you under $50 in wiring though. Let me see.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Two questions: 1)what's your color theme? Blue or Red 2)have you decided where your LOC will be mounted? By radio or in rear?


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Going to go with lc2i, it will go in above glove compartment BUT that's if it will fit there, I had the dimensions some where but cant find them now. Aprox 2x5xsomething . As far as colors go, the stock (black) the better. Mmm red and black i guess.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Christr15 said:


> Going to go with lc2i, it will go in above glove compartment BUT that's if it will fit there, I had the dimensions some where but cant find them now. Aprox 2x5xsomething . As far as colors go, the stock (black) the better. Mmm red and black i guess.


Get back with you tonight, late  Softball tournament today.


Sent from iFail Mobile


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Christr15 said:


> I tried to link it in my previous post.KnuKonceptz KCA Complete 4 Gauge Amp Installation Kit:Amazon:Car Electronics no biggie if it doesn't work. Just came across it and thought since knu konceptz was where is at, thought that might be good, but originally expected about $100 in wiring.


KCA is Copper clad Aluminum. I strongly recommend against it. It is cheaper, but for a reason. It is the worst thing you can possibly put in your engine bay.

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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Anyone know if there is enough space above the glove box to fit the lc2i. Dimensions I found are 6-1/2"W x 1-1/2"H x 3-1/4"D. Plus wires. I have mytouch if that makes difference.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

It should fit, be back with wire suggestions later tonight


Sent from iFail Mobile


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

Sorry for my ignorance and thank you for your help.
If I go with the lc2i, will I be able to expand the other 2 outputs to an eq then a 4 channel amp for speakers down the road or does it need to be something like the lc6i. Can I run rca out to an eq then to the 4 chan, or will that defeat the purpose of the eq with so little info being input?


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

i will be using a lc2i, with a mini dsp for eq and a 4ch and mono amp. as for eq your best bet is going to be a mini dsp. and raw drivers. andrei (xtremerevolution) has spent many hours on write ups and has so kindley posted up the files for people to use saving someone who doesnt know much about adjusting eq parameters or time alignment.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

This topic is beat to death lol run xtremes set up or spend 6k duplicating it with brand names...


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

hificruzer226 said:


> This topic is beat to death lol run xtremes set up or spend 6k duplicating it with brand names...


my thoughts exactly.


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

giantsfan10 said:


> i will be using a lc2i, with a mini dsp for eq and a 4ch and mono amp. as for eq your best bet is going to be a mini dsp. and raw drivers. andrei (xtremerevolution) has spent many hours on write ups and has so kindley posted up the files for people to use saving someone who doesnt know much about adjusting eq parameters or time alignment.


Thank you.when I read the article a few weeks ago, I didn't understand the miniDSP part, but since I have learned a lot since then, I had forgotten about that. Thanks for reminding me about it.

Thanks everyone for your help


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

So here are my suggestions for the wire kit components... You can always substitute cheaper versions if you find them. I would definitely crosscheck EBAY for cheaper prices and free shipping!!!! I can almost guarantee you no web-based store front will beat Amazon or Ebay's prices on these components. The three things I would NOT change are the power, ground and RCAs. See if you can get them cheaper but I wouldn't change the brands as it is very hard to find a better price on quality at this price point. 

Kit 1x = the number of product you'll need)

(X2) Amazon.com: KnuKonceptz KCA Kable 4 Gauge Power Wire Red: Automotive - $26 (for 2)

Amazon.com: KnuKonceptz KCA Kable 4 Gauge Power Wire Black: Automotive
(This is the ground cable; Ebay has it for 95 cents or less per foot)
- If you are just doing the amp ground you'll need 4ft
- If you are going to do the BIG 3 + Amp, about 11-12ft

Full Size ANL Fuse Holder: http://www.amazon.com/Earthquake-So...21961&sr=1-1&keywords=4+gauge+anl+fuse+holder $10
- Fuse: Amazon.com : DB Link ANL150 150 Amp ANL Fuse : Vehicle Amplifier Fuses : Electronics $4

Mini ANL Fuse Holder: http://www.amazon.com/Xscorpion-CMA...21961&sr=1-2&keywords=4+gauge+anl+fuse+holder $6
- Amazon.com : T-Spec V8-MANL150 V8 Series Nickel Plated MINI ANL Fuses : Vehicle Amplifier Fuses : Electronics $3.15

Amazon.com: Karma Kable 2 Channel 6M Twisted Coaxial RCA Cable 20': Electronics $21.50

Amazon.com : KnuKonceptz 4 Gauge Set Screw Ring Terminal Pair : Vehicle Amplifier Power Cable Terminals : Car Electronics $7.50
- I highly recommend these because the crimp on style usually don't work well unless you solder them. (Amp only)
- I would NOT use these in the engine bay for two reasons
- The flat portion is in the center of the circle which makes laying the connector flat like the others in the bay nearly impossible
- The hole size is not always conducive to battery terminal rings.

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Crimp...2940&sr=8-2&keywords=4+gauge+battery+terminal $7.20
- Something like this for the engine bay is more suitable/appropriate.

Amazon.com: KnuKonceptz Kord Kable 10 Gauge Copper Speaker Wire 5': Electronics $10
- Something like this for the speaker wire 10-16 gauge should be just fine
- You can use banana terminals if you want to, not necessary 
- Amazon.com: KnuKonceptz eKs BFA Style Banana Plugs - Set of 4: Electronics $10

For just the power wire, 4ft of ground wire, RCAs, ANL + fuse, battery terminals, amp terminals, and speaker cable you're looking at $90 from the links I posted. I can't access Ebay at work. I can GUARANTEE you'll find several items for cheaper there. Also, I grouped the Knukonceptz power/ground wire shipping costs as they will do that for you on Ebay. 

Feel free to throw up a link to an alternate product if you're not sure. As XR already mentioned, the power/ground in the kit you posted Amazon.com : KnuKonceptz KCA Complete 4 Gauge Amp Installation Kit : Vehicle Amplifier Wire And Wiring Kits : Car Electronics is not very good. The ANL fuse is too small, and the terminals won't work as they're likely going to be too big for the amp terminals anyways. I think the amount of wire in the kit may work but I also think you may find you're really stretching the wire because of the minimal extra to play with. 

I'll be on all night or at least until midnight


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

Also if you have a welding supply shop near you or a wholesaler that carries welding wire. That will work great aswell. However it's not nearly as flexible. But in my previous truck and car installing with 1/0 never had and issues running it through the car. For me it was a bit cheaper iirc then even using knu wire. And the outer jacket is some tough stuff. Just another option you could look at for power and ground wire. 

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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

giantsfan10 said:


> Also if you have a welding supply shop near you or a wholesaler that carries welding wire. That will work great aswell. However it's not nearly as flexible. But in my previous truck and car installing with 1/0 never had and issues running it through the car. For me it was a bit cheaper iirc then even using knu wire. And the outer jacket is some tough stuff. Just another option you could look at for power and ground wire.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


I would advise against this though. I tried it and ripped it all out. The stuff rusts really quickly!


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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> So here are my suggestions for the wire kit components... You can always substitute cheaper versions if you find them. I would definitely crosscheck EBAY for cheaper prices and free shipping!!!! I can almost guarantee you no web-based store front will beat Amazon or Ebay's prices on these components. The three things I would NOT change are the power, ground and RCAs. See if you can get them cheaper but I wouldn't change the brands as it is very hard to find a better price on quality at this price point.
> 
> Kit 1x = the number of product you'll need)
> 
> ...


Wow, man. This is fantastic. Thank you ever so much. I can picture everything now. I'm very visual but with the list, I can see it put together in my head. For me, it's one thing to change a head gasket, but I have never had to mess with electrical. Thanks for breaking it down for me. I don't feel like I'm going to explode my amp or burn my car down.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

No problem. You can crimp the engine bay connectors for the 4 gauge wire but I would HIGHLY suggest you buy a $10 soldering iron and solder the connections. It's soooooo easy! As easy as opening a front door I swear! If you want to make it look even cleaner... grab some heatshrink and bridge the gap between the connector and the wire sleeve. 

Remember to take your time and search for the cheapest price. If not price you may find free shipping. Hey $5 is $5 right? The reason for 20ft powerwire is so that you can snake it and hide it as needed without having to stretch it because you're almost out of length. The reason for 4ft of ground is the same reason. You NEED to find a good grounding screw. 

I recommend using the seatbelt bolts for the grounding point or a similar bolt in the trunk. Make sure you scrape away the paint before screwing it down. Paint can cause a bad ground. If you have questions about physically mounting your amp or hiding wires please ask. Good luck on your install and I want pictures!!!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

For engine bay connections, here's a trick I use. Get some closed ring terminals, copper, from eBay or your local NAPA store. They are very cheap. Get some electrical solder and cut some pieces up and put them inside the terminal. 

Cut just a little less of the jacket off the end of the wire as the terminal is deep. Heat the terminal till the solder melts. You can use a propane torch but I prefer mapp since it's quicker. You could probably do it with a kitchen gas range. Once the solder is melted, slide the cable inside. The solder will permanently attach the cable to the terminal, and the jacket will melt to the edge of the terminal and create a seal as well.

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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

hificruzer226 said:


> This topic is beat to death lol run xtremes set up or spend 6k duplicating it with brand names...


What is the matter Dawg did you get lost in the shuffle , well ya gotta learn the 2 step quick and get those 2 feet of yours in step with the rest of your squad .


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> For engine bay connections, here's a trick I use. Get some closed ring terminals, copper, from eBay or your local NAPA store. They are very cheap. Get some electrical solder and cut some pieces up and put them inside the terminal.
> 
> Cut just a little less of the jacket off the end of the wire as the terminal is deep. Heat the terminal till the solder melts. You can use a propane torch but I prefer mapp since it's quicker. You could probably do it with a kitchen gas range. Once the solder is melted, slide the cable inside. The solder will permanently attach the cable to the terminal, and the jacket will melt to the edge of the terminal and create a seal as well.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


MAPP? Why am I not recalling this acronym, grrrr


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> MAPP? Why am I not recalling this acronym, grrrr


Yellow tank. Used for sweating copper joints in plumbing. Transfers heat so fast that I can make a big 3 kit in 5 minutes. 

http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/014045/014045324779.jpg

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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Yellow tank. Used for sweating copper joints in plumbing. Transfers heat so fast that I can make a big 3 kit in 5 minutes.
> 
> Anything to be concerned with on these like you know, explosions?! I'm not referring to spray painting in the garage and lighting up but just normal use. Any big no nos?
> 
> ...


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Set the closed ring in a vice to secure it from moving around while heating it up . I would think that if the garage is well ventilated there would be minimal harm to the occupants . Keep alll flamables away and secure from childrens curiosity !


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

iTz SADISTIK said:


> Anything to be concerned with on these like you know, explosions?! I'm not referring to spray painting in the garage and lighting up but just normal use. Any big no nos?
> 
> 
> Sent from iFail Mobile


Explosions? Nope. Just don't open the gas tank on max and take forever to light it. Ever turned on a gas range and forgot to light it, then came back 5 minutes later and hit the striker? Burned hairs is what you get. 

Use common sense. Use it like any propane torch. Propane works just fine BTW. Terry uses this method on his big 3 kits and it works wonderfully. I just like mapp because it gets things hotter more quickly. 

A vice is handy for this kind of work but I've managed with a pair of pliers before. It's best done outside or in a garage where you won't damage something if some melted solder spills out and falls on the floor.

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## Christr15 (May 13, 2014)

I found 2 good videos on youtube about soldering them. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEWuCI-h-Mo for rings with an open end.

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zssIlnwH8dY for rings that are closed in the front.

Now if they just had a soldering video for soldering the speaker wire to the tab style conectors inside the box. Did mine yesterday. Looks like a blind man soldered the wires while jumping on a trampoline.


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