# Trump to shut down Lordstown, AGAIN!



## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

Sounds about right. Why waste money on progress when gas is still cheap?


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## Chevy_Country (Oct 16, 2015)

I didn't know trump was calling the shots for GM now ?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

So where's the issue? The CEO of Lordstown Motors has already gone on record that they don't need this loan. This is in both the "highlights" and in the body of the article.


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## -loki- (Dec 13, 2019)

The United States is a business... sometimes to obtain what's best for the whole prior things must be sacrificed in order for the business to survive and push forward.


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## UpstateNYBill (Jan 14, 2012)

Who cares.

I would have bought another Cruze.

I wouldn't buy an EV.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

UpstateNYBill said:


> Who cares.
> 
> I would have bought another Cruze.
> 
> I wouldn't buy an EV.


Once you drive an EV you won't go back to an internal combustion engine. I absolutely hate it when my Volt and my wife's Clarity engage their gas engines. Unfortunately the pickings for EVs is pretty slim right now.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

obermd said:


> Once you drive an EV you won't go back to an internal combustion engine. I absolutely hate it when my Volt and my wife's Clarity engage their gas engines. Unfortunately the pickings for EVs is pretty slim right now.


I can go back and forth, but to say "I wouldn't buy an EV" is just ignorant. I love my Volt.

Driving home, in traffic, in silence really makes the drive home that much more calming when I know I'm not sitting there wasting gas. Filling my Volt up roughly once per year is even better. Saving money every month on driving costs (my electric bill went up about $30 a month - I was paying about $150 a month in gas before). Instantaneous torque and a low CoG? What's not to like?


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

I read “EV” as NOT having an ICE...(like Tesla, Bolt, Leaf, BMW i3)...am I wrong?


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## -loki- (Dec 13, 2019)

So what is the price to replace the electric motors or drives... what about the battery pack if it has one.... the torque would be nice... but... sorry whirrrrrrr will never sound as good....


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

I can't imagine fueling once a year.

My motorcycle and generator hate sitting around in the winter.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Rivergoer said:


> I read “EV” as NOT having an ICE...(like Tesla, Bolt, Leaf, BMW i3)...am I wrong?


Not technically, but those would be considered a BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) - A Volt or Clarity would be a PHEV (Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle) or EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle - first gen Volt was an EREV, second is a PHEV). My Volt can run entirely in EV mode until I run out of charge or tell it to run on the engine - the engine does not automatically turn on no matter how hard I push the throttle down like some other PHEVs. So, in my mind, it is an EV. I just have the option of using my engine to go 400 miles further. 

But in my general day-to-day driving, that engine never turns on (unless it needs to run a monthlyish EMM - Engine Maintenance Mode - cycle to run fuel through the system, or if it is below 15* F where the ERDTT - Engine running due to temperature - kicks the engine on to provide heat for the cabin, a welcome thing at that point)



-loki- said:


> So what is the price to replace the electric motors or drives... what about the battery pack if it has one.... the torque would be nice... but... sorry whirrrrrrr will never sound as good....


Roughly the same price as replacing an engine - and most have very long warranties on the electric drive components and batteries.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

I'm curious as to how the heater and ac are in those things. Any good?


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

The AC is easily the best of any vehicle I've ever experienced - and it's quite efficient on power, as well. The heater sucks a lot more juice, so I generally drive around without heat (though I precondition the cabin for 3-5 minutes in the morning, which uses 1kW of 120V house power to assist, so it doesn't use _as much_ charge). But I have heated seats and a heated steering wheel, so I am plenty comfortable. When ERDTT is active, I leave the heat on and have a nice comfortable warm drive into work.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Rivergoer said:


> I read “EV” as NOT having an ICE...(like Tesla, Bolt, Leaf, BMW i3)...am I wrong?


The Volt and BMW i3 REX are the only hybrids that will stay in EV mode until the battery is exhausted. All other hybrids will engage the gas engine to provide additional power. You can even drive a Volt without any gas (I've done it). This makes it an EV for all practical purposes when driving around town. I had to put gas in mine last week - 12,703 miles on less than 9 gallons. Based on my experience my next vehicle will be a full EV.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

-loki- said:


> So what is the price to replace the electric motors or drives... what about the battery pack if it has one.... the torque would be nice... but... sorry whirrrrrrr will never sound as good....


The electric motors are cheaper than a transmission in a gas or diesel powered car. Batteries can be expensive. However, they're also warranted for a minimum of 8 years/100,000 miles (15/150,000 in CARB states). I expect the batteries in my Volt will outlast the body of the car. If you're looking at BEVs, ensure they have liquid based active thermal management to protect the batteries from temperature extremes, which shorten battery life.

You mentioned the sound - turns out the human nervous system hates continuous background sounds. I find that rush hour doesn't frazzle me nearly as much anymore. The absolute quite of the electric drive is really noticeable, to the extent that I actually had to double check to ensure the car was running before backing out of the parking spot after having driven my son's 2013 ECO MT and my mom's BMW x5 over Christmas. Not having to stop for gas every week or so was a huge benefit that I never would have anticipated - I spend 30 seconds plugging in the car when I get home and when I'm ready to leave it's fully charged. 30 seconds to unplug and coil the charging cable is all it takes.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

snowwy66 said:


> I'm curious as to how the heater and ac are in those things. Any good?


My two PHEVs heat up from freezing temperatures like they have fully warmed V8s under the hood. The AC is outstanding as well. Like MP81 my Volt has heated seats and steering wheel. I keep the cabin thermostat at 62 to 65 in the winter. The Clarity doesn't have a heated steering wheel, but in my case a heated steering wheel is actually not as useful as you would think as it aggravates the arthritis in my right hand. 

An example of how fast the heater in an EV is. I have always ice scraped the windshield after the side windows. Last week I started my Volt and put the blower on (62F cabin setting). By the time I finished the side windows (less than a minute on each side) the windshield had melted to a point that I could use the snow brush on my long scraper to just wipe off the remaining ice. The ice was about a quarter inch thick.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

MP81 said:


> Not technically, but those would be considered a BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) - A Volt or Clarity would be a PHEV (Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle) or EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle - first gen Volt was an EREV, second is a PHEV). My Volt can run entirely in EV mode until I run out of charge or tell it to run on the engine - the engine does not automatically turn on no matter how hard I push the throttle down like some other PHEVs. So, in my mind, it is an EV. I just have the option of using my engine to go 400 miles further.
> 
> But in my general day-to-day driving, that engine never turns on (unless it needs to run a monthlyish EMM - Engine Maintenance Mode - cycle to run fuel through the system, or if it is below 15* F where the ERDTT - Engine running due to temperature - kicks the engine on to provide heat for the cabin, a welcome thing at that point)


I've come to hate ERDTT since even in the bitter cold the batteries would keep me warm and get me to where I'm going. The 2019 Volt addressed this issue by setting the ERDTT temperature to -15F.


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## UpstateNYBill (Jan 14, 2012)

obermd said:


> Once you drive an EV you won't go back to an internal combustion engine. I absolutely hate it when my Volt and my wife's Clarity engage their gas engines. Unfortunately the pickings for EVs is pretty slim right now.


The Volt is one thing, but an all electric vehicle is another.

When one drives up to 250 miles a day, and is still on call that could result in up to an additional 120 miles of driving after work hours, how would an EV work out?

Not so well.

It doesn't get me from NY to Florida and back very well either. No thanks.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

UpstateNYBill said:


> The Volt is one thing, but an all electric vehicle is another.
> 
> When one drives up to 250 miles a day, and is still on call that could result in up to an additional 120 miles of driving after work hours, how would an EV work out?
> 
> ...


For now.

Range is getting up there (the longer range Teslas are well over 300 miles - 370 I believe), and charging speed is coming down.

It's not perfect yet, and the Volt really is still the best kind of EV out there in my mind, but eventually (and I mean only a few years), they'll get range up to matching that of a ICE vehicle, and charging time down to nearly that of a gas station fill-up.

Sounds like you'd do perfectly with a Volt. Hold mode on the freeways, run on EV charge on surface roads.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

UpstateNYBill said:


> The Volt is one thing, but an all electric vehicle is another.
> 
> When one drives up to 250 miles a day, and is still on call that could result in up to an additional 120 miles of driving after work hours, how would an EV work out?
> 
> ...


Here's the current map of CCS (400KW) chargers just from the VW subsidiary Electrify America (top) and Tesla's Superchargers (bottom). Yes, there are still large areas of the country not covered by high speed chargers but all the high traffic interstates are now covered. Stations on these two maps all have sub-30 minute charging times and are all connected to travel plazas or shopping areas so you're not standing at your car the entire time. EA's stated goal is no more than 50 miles between stations. Tesla tends towards 75 to 80 miles between interstate superchargers.










Electrify America Map









Tesla Supercharging Network

In addition to EA and Tesla, there are additional charging networks, ChargePoint, EVGo, etc. that have sprung up to handle medium speed charging in our cities. By medium speed I mean 25 to 50 miles of charge per hour. These stations are almost all in shopping center and restaurant parking lots so you charge while you shop or dine.


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## CRUISE-CRUZE (Nov 8, 2010)

UpstateNYBill said:


> The Volt is one thing, but an all electric vehicle is another.
> It doesn't get me from NY to Florida and back very well either. No thanks.


Touché! 
The more EV on the streets, the more the price for electricity will go up! Time for charging is also too long, a faster charge will kill the life o the battery. Then.. I don't see any emergency evacuation happening with EV buses or the fire fighters coming with EV trucks either! A modest family will never afford to buy and maintain a used EV, it won't worth it.
The future would be for hybrids, less pollution options (GPL), etc, but I don't see the "pure" EV winning the market.
And I didn't even mentioned the infrastructure that is not there, the disposal for used batteries, the danger of these when accidents happen..


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

MP81 said:


> For now.
> 
> Range is getting up there (the longer range Teslas are well over 300 miles - 370 I believe), and charging speed is coming down.
> 
> ...


If I were to ever consider an EV, it would be like the Volt, and yet that is the model that GM killed, and really there was nothing else EV out there similar. Most people are not going to have a car that is only a commuter local area car, if they also want the ability to road trip, it is true the Volt could do both.. that said, I was really a 4 seater, the giant center hump made the rear center seat pretty much useless, and otherwise had similar space to Cruze, but the Diesel Cruze was much cheaper, and no battery replacement at 10 year. My son did a detailed comparison of a Bolt to Cruze, and found that the battery replacement cost was almost as much as a new ICE car at the 10 year life point, and wiped out minimal fuel savings over that time. I do however see future advances in technology that will likely tip more in favor of EVs, for some applications. I totally do not get the EV Tesla Truck.. It can't possibly have a long enough range towing any RV, which is a pretty common use of a Truck. RV towing goes along with road trip and long drives, I just can't see EVs doing that very well anytime soon. Local delivery trucks, maybe more viable.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

snowwy66 said:


> I can't imagine fueling once a year.
> 
> My motorcycle and generator hate sitting around in the winter.


@snowwy66,

Missed this post. If you don't use gas, the Volt will run the gas engine every 6 weeks with a pre-programmed routine (Engine Maintenance Mode) that's designed to test the gas powerplant as well as lubricate everything with coolant and oil (as needed of course). Once the average age of the gas in the car reaches 365 days, the Volt will go into what's called Fuel Maintenance Mode until the gas tank is empty or you put three gallons of gas in the car. Note that putting the three gallons in doesn't give you another year - the car's computers calculate the new average age based on the gas that was in there and the new gas and set the "year" clock to that point.

The Gen 1 Volts use the same engine as the Gen 1 LT, ECO, and LTZ and thus requires 91 octane. The Gen 2 Volt uses an engine in the same family as the Gen 2 Cruze and uses 87 octane. Interesting tidbit - it appears the Gen 1 Volt has the same high/lo octane mapping as the Gen 1 Cruze. Some folks over on gm-volt.com have reported that 87 octane works just fine in their Gen 1 Volt.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

MRO1791 said:


> If I were to ever consider an EV, it would be like the Volt, and yet that is the model that GM killed, and really there was nothing else EV out there similar. Most people are not going to have a car that is only a commuter local area car, if they also want the ability to road trip, it is true the Volt could do both.. that said, I was really a 4 seater, the giant center hump made the rear center seat pretty much useless, and otherwise had similar space to Cruze, but the Diesel Cruze was much cheaper, and no battery replacement at 10 year. My son did a detailed comparison of a Bolt to Cruze, and found that the battery replacement cost was almost as much as a new ICE car at the 10 year life point, and wiped out minimal fuel savings over that time. I do however see future advances in technology that will likely tip more in favor of EVs, for some applications. I totally do not get the EV Tesla Truck.. It can't possibly have a long enough range towing any RV, which is a pretty common use of a Truck. RV towing goes along with road trip and long drives, I just can't see EVs doing that very well anytime soon. Local delivery trucks, maybe more viable.


PHEVs are possibly the most complex powerplant every put into a high volume manufactured product. BEVs are drop dead simple and make traditional ICE power look excessively complex. The future is BEV for the simple reason of politics, and not just in the US. VW and Mercedes have all announced shutting down their ICE R&D facilities and replacing them with EV R&D. GM is in the transition from ICE R&D to EV R&D.

For cost, after 10 years my Volt will have saved me between $9,000 and $11,000 operating costs when compared the my 2010 ECO MT, which ended it's life over 42.5 MPG. This includes the additional cost of electricity at my home - fuel savings are significant. Because I'm somewhat anal about tracking my vehicle operating costs I had the numbers to make the comparison, coming up with a minimum savings of $960 and a maximum of $1200 after just one year. Gas prices are more than a dollar a gallon lower now so the savings will obviously be less.

I'm withholding judgement on any of the six announced BEV pickups. I want to see them in on the streets and roads before I decide what I think of them. I do see BEV trucks showing up in construction and maintenance fleets, however as most of these vehicles never tow for very long distances, but the cargo space is important. Think about all the pickups you see on the roads that have empty beds and no trailer - BEV pickups that advertise high capacities and ranges will have a huge potential market with the "gotta have a truck" crowd because "I might once in my life have an RV or boat to tow across country."

On the other hand, local area delivery is a perfect use case for BEVs. UPS just ordered 10,000 BEV local area delivery vans for use in the UK. The company they ordered them from is already delivering local area BEV delivery vans to the British Postal Service so we know this isn't a vaporware product. BEV city busses are another outstanding use case and there are at least two companies currently delivering them to cities around the world, including in the US (Philadelphia as a dozen or so BEV city busses).


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

obermd said:


> The Gen 1 Volts use the same engine as the Gen 1 LT, ECO, and LTZ and thus requires 91 octane.


Same base engine, minus the turbo, that is.

Also worth mentioning - battery replacement at 10 years isn't a requirement. Thus far, some of the earlier Gen 1 Volts are almost there, have 300k miles, and have seen no degradation in battery range. With a thermal system on the battery, and proper "buffer" zones, the batteries really should last quite a long time.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

MP81 said:


> Same base engine, minus the turbo, that is.
> 
> Also worth mentioning - battery replacement at 10 years isn't a requirement. Thus far, some of the earlier Gen 1 Volts are almost there, have 300k miles, and have seen no degradation in battery range. With a thermal system on the battery, and proper "buffer" zones, the batteries really should last quite a long time.


Sparkie, a 2011 Volt, has over 400,000 miles on the batteries and no loss of range.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

"For cost, after 10 years my Volt will have saved me between $9,000 and $11,000 operating costs when compared the my 2010 ECO MT, which ended it's life over 42.5 MPG. " 

Good numbers there. Now if you do the life time average of a mostly highway Diesel (Could be well into the 50's for MPG), those operating cost savings are far less, and IF you need a new battery, it is totally gone (in either case). The comparison my son did was Diesel Cruze vs. Bolt EV. If I did more city driving, I'd see the advantage of the EV, but again, it's not something I can use for a long road trip where I don't want to have to be dealing with finding a charge station, and the wait to charge a battery. I like the 700 plus mile range of the Diesel, and even my Truck with an aux tank can do that with a trailer, and about double that when not towing. To have a separate car just for local commutes is pretty expensive if I also need another for long road trips. 

As to VW going EV, they were pretty much forced to do so after their Diesel cheating scandal, the EPA and EU forced them to move away from ICE to avoid crushing fines they earned by their intentional cheating emissions standards, customers, and other OEMs that could not figure out how to get Diesels in cars and compete with VW.. turns out it was hard because VW blatantly cheated. 

The market is where I look to see the viability of EVs, and there is a place for sure, but they are still a tiny demand signal on all new cars sold, and if the demand was driving it, they would keep growing, if the government tries to force it, it will have limited success, and used ICE cars will hold their value even more, if that is what the market wants. 

For example, lets say I'm in the market for a sedan. The Bolt is $35K to $40K, other similar sized ICE Sedans can be purchased for less than $20K (I got my Diesel Cruzes for about $20K). It's just not a good economic case to justify the EV at this point, now higher volume production will drive that cost down, and that might help, but it has to be close before it takes off, and it is just not there yet, the battery cost is the big driver in that, and eventual replacement cost which will happen. 

It's good that some batteries are going beyond the expected life, and there are many factors to what might cause a longer or shorter life, and rapid charging is definitely a factor to shorten life, so I'd bet the batteries lasting longer are daily commute cars that get a slow overnight charge, which is much easier.. any car used for long highway road trips and more frequent rapid charging is unlikely to see extended battery life.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

The MSRP of my Volt was $36k. The MSRP of our Cruze Diesel was $29k. After the $7500 tax credit I received, you're at the same cost (the Volt maybe even being slightly cheaper).

Yes it has an engine, but I drive it 95% of the time as an EV. It costs me roughly $30 a month in electricity, and has an average of $0.004/mile in fuel cost. The Cruze has a lifetime average of $0.074/mile, and costs us roughly $100-$150 on the same route.

Sure looks like mine is cheaper. Considering the Volt does just about as well as our CTD does on the freeway (45-47 MPG), and then is practically infinitely better in the city, it's clearly the cheaper car to drive, and it's far quicker.

And for what it's worth, even though it's hardly a valid point of comparison in your argument, the replacement cost of a Volt's battery is about $3500 - you're going to spend _a lot more_ to have the engine replaced in a CTD.

But that's why I think the Volt, at the moment, is the best EV to buy...even though you can't anymore.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

MP81 said:


> The MSRP of my Volt was $36k. The MSRP of our Cruze Diesel was $29k. After the $7500 tax credit I received, you're at the same cost (the Volt maybe even being slightly cheaper).
> 
> Yes it has an engine, but I drive it 95% of the time as an EV. It costs me roughly $30 a month in electricity, and has an average of $0.004/mile in fuel cost. The Cruze has a lifetime average of $0.074/mile, and costs us roughly $100-$150 on the same route.
> 
> ...


No one should ever pay MSRP, as I stated, I paid about 20K for 2 of my diesels, the fully loaded was about 23K (MSRPs were from 25k to 29K BTW). The comparison I was doing was for the BOLT EV battery cost, much larger and more expensive than the Volt Battery. I did mention, if there were an EV I'd ever consider, it would be the Volt, but as you point out, it is the car GM is no longer going to make. Now if the put a small diesel in a Volt it would be even better (you would not have gas stagnation issues, higher highway MPG, etc).

A friend of mine had a late model Volt, and no, my Diesels get WAY better highway MPG than the volt, High 50s, even up to 60 is possible. I have the best 50 mile MPG at 69MPG, and I verified the numbers by calculation and gallons added. You also are not getting 700+ miles on a tank in the Volt, and certainly not any EV.

As far as quicker, that is debatable, the listed data I saw said the volt 0-60 is between 7.1. - 7.5 seconds. That's pretty similar to what I get in my Diesel, EDIT: Found the data on same site listing the Volt 0-60 times.. Diesel Cruze: 0-60 times, 8.2 to 8.6 seconds. So you got me by a SECOND!

It is great you like Volt, and it is a fine car, but it's also effectively a 4 seat car, the massive hump in the middle of the back seat floor area does that, I can fit my family of 5 in the Cruze no problems. Both cars have their advantages and disadvantages.

I wished GM did not discontinue the Volt, as it was something I would certainly consider, I just can't say that for the Bolt given the current technology. I would also agree, of the EVs out there, the Volt was the best option going. GM also discontinued the 1.6L Diesel, which is a great engine.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Oh, almost forgot... I can rebuild my diesel engine at 500K miles or so (many diesels will go that far, or more) if it needs it, and doing the work with parts will be far cheaper than even the Volt battery. I can't rebuild a battery with inexpensive parts in my garage, like I can an with an engine.. so to me the battery cost is a very a valid point. Given my about 25K in 2 years.. that rebuild is going to be well beyond the 20 year mark.. assuming the car's body and other items last that long! 250K miles, would be 10 years or more (most modern gasoline engines can do about 250K). Basically a Diesel rebuild is not likely to be an issue for me as soon as a battery is nearly certain to be an issue on any EV. My 1996 Saturn has well over 200K and no engine rebuild, using just a little oil, but it runs fine, It is 24 years old.


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