# Rattle when starting car from a cold start.



## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

I have a 2018 diesel cruze hatch with 22k miles and I've been having this odd issue lately when I start my car after not driving it for 6+ hours where a loud rattle comes from the engine bay. Its not throwing me any codes and the engine starts and runs fine. It just rattle for the fist couple seconds of start up from a cold start (typically sitting over night or when I start my car after leaving work). It doesn't do it when the engine is up to temp and then shut off and turned back on.

Has anyone else encountered this issue and know what the cause is?


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## rcruze (Mar 22, 2018)

Can you tell if it is coming more from the passenger side? Maybe the belt tensioner?


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

I own a 2017 Cruze and a 2018 Gmc Terrain both lh7's. The cruze has only made this noise a handful of times. The Terrain does it alot and it depends on the ambient air temperature. To me it sounds like the starter is hanging up. There doesn't seam to be any information on this issue. 

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## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

sledstorm1 said:


> I own a 2017 Cruze and a 2018 Gmc Terrain both lh7's. The cruze has only made this noise a handful of times. The Terrain it depends on the ambient air temperature. To me it sounds like the starter is hanging up. There doesn't seam to be any information on this issue.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Yeah I know, it sucks that is seems I'm the only one that's having this issue. I'm going to try recording it and bringing to the dealership to see what their opinion is on it if they can even figure out what it is. It literally only happens when the car is started after not running for a long period of time.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

I have an engine clatter that happens on occasion. It seems like the pilot injection isn't happy. Clatters a little bit like an older diesel.... 

I pulled into the smog test place last week and restarted the car and it made the clatter ... and the woman doing the test said "that sounds horrible". She was shocked and didn't believe me at first when I said it was a diesel. I turned it off and restarted again and it went away...

in every case If I turn the engine off and restart it goes away.

Since it didn't happen for the first 25k miles, my first suspicion is that it is a sticky EGR valve. I could clean it. But I bought a new one to swap in and will clean the other and put it on the shelf.

Jeff


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

To me it doesn't sound like a combustion related knock. It sounds more metallic, like a something related to the timing set or the starter hanging up. The noise is coming from that side of the motor. 

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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

Sound like something different from what I am hearing - but I am only listening to the rattle from inside the vehicle - I haven't opened the hood to listen....

jeff


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## meatheadgn (Mar 29, 2018)

I had a rattle sound, like detonation on a gas engine, at light throttle and when I took off. I cleaned my plugged MAP sensor and it went away. I initially thought it may be some tuning issues but when I cleaned the MAP sensor it fixed it.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

My car now has a minor, annoying rattle when started and it's conveniently appeared right after the warranty expired.


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

Welcome to the startup rattle club. 

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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Mine honestly sounds like a heat shield is rattling a little bit loose. I need to see if I can hear it when the engine is hot.

My BMW K100RS had a terrible, awful heat shield rattle on the muffler right around 2,400-2,500 RPM that made that bike sound disgusting. It was right at cruising speed. BMW had some sort of recall that was long ago expired, but they still sold a kit to replace some fasteners and put stainless steel washers or something on it. I just replaced the stock muffler with something welded on and it sounded a lot better.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

This is good to know root cause. Thanks for following up.

My car very likely had the same issue. My daughter had driven it for a year in a small college town with many very short trips. 

I still think my egr valve needed to be checked too...

The "clatter" that I experienced would go away if I turned off the car and restarted it....

Jeff


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

How about this for a rattle? I notice this appeared (unsourced) on the Wikipedia page of the MDE/LH7 engine info:


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## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

Barry Allen said:


> Mine honestly sounds like a heat shield is rattling a little bit loose. I need to see if I can hear it when the engine is hot.
> 
> My BMW K100RS had a terrible, awful heat shield rattle on the muffler right around 2,400-2,500 RPM that made that bike sound disgusting. It was right at cruising speed. BMW had some sort of recall that was long ago expired, but they still sold a kit to replace some fasteners and put stainless steel washers or something on it. I just replaced the stock muffler with something welded on and it sounded a lot better.


After listening to it multiple times and getting out and trying to rattle my heat shield, this is the conclusion I've come to. I haven't had any engine lights come on and it only seems to do it during the summer time when the metal has expanded a bit from the heat outside.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

If it is a cam chain noise that is the culprit - the cam chain tensioner can be driven by oil pressure. So varying ambient temps or oil condition might give varying results.

jeff


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## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

oregon_rider said:


> If it is a cam chain noise that is the culprit - the cam chain tensioner can be driven by oil pressure. So varying ambient temps or oil condition might give varying results.
> 
> jeff


Welp, you got me double guessing myself now, so I’m just gonna take it into the shop and have it looked at. It’s definitely one or the other for sure.


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> How about this for a rattle? I notice this appeared (unsourced) on the Wikipedia page of the MDE/LH7 engine info:
> 
> View attachment 293300


That's not good news. I wonder if this issue has been more of a problem in Europe? I have not heard of the timing chain failing before. Has anyone else? I hope they address it in the 3.0 Duramax. It's the same design. 

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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

Lots of banter about it on the Opel/Vauxhall forums, though "never addressed by the manufacturer" seems a bit of a stretch.

Seems they have a special warranty coverage to 100,000 miles for it that includes a new re-designed gasket, should the problem arise. Of course there's probably no such coverage stateside (LH7 is not included on the list of engines that receive the coverage.)

Pretty good info here: Vauxhall Astra k 1.6cdti loud rattle - Vauxhall Astra K Forums, but I'll admit I didn't read it all. The meat really starts on page 9 if you want to skip ahead.


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

phil1734 said:


> Lots of banter about it on the Opel/Vauxhall forums, though "never addressed by the manufacturer" seems a bit of a stretch.
> 
> Seems they have a special warranty coverage to 100,000 miles for it that includes a new re-designed gasket, should the problem arise. Of course there's probably no such coverage stateside (LH7 is not included on the list of engines that receive the coverage.)
> 
> Pretty good info here: Vauxhall Astra k 1.6cdti loud rattle - Vauxhall Astra K Forums, but I'll admit I didn't read it all. The meat really starts on page 9 if you want to skip ahead.


So how do we force GM to cover our cars the same way? 

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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

sledstorm1 said:


> That's not good news. I wonder if this issue has been more of a problem in Europe? I have not heard of the timing chain failing before. Has anyone else? I hope they address it in the 3.0 Duramax. It's the same design.


I was apprehensive about this in the engine but I went ahead and bought the car.

The timing chain is buried at the back of the engine so dampen sound by having it mated to the transmission case. So, the future problem is that if/when a timing chain is needing replaced, the job now involves dropping the engine out of the car. It isn't like timing chains on OHC engines are ever a great thing to do because you still have to take apart the entire front end of the engine in most cars, so timing chains in OHV engines are definitely easier (and those almost never stretch or break because they are short and stout). Timing belts are usually easy in most engines, but V engines can get harder.

Anyways, replacing the timing chain with this engine means removing the engine. That's a big ask for when cars start to get older and have lots of miles. Want to guess and say this job starts at $2,500? $3,500? Higher? I can guarantee there will be at least a few vehicles (Cruze, Equinox, Terrain) that suffer premature timing chain failure and the cost of the repair means the vehicle is sent to the scrap yard despite being otherwise functional and probably useful for more years.

For the 3.0 Duramax, the calculation in trucks is a bit different with higher costs and value of the vehicle. The other problem the 3.0 has is the oil pump drive belt that is rated for 150,000 miles, and it's on the back of the engine - you have to drop the transmission to change it.

The engine designer said the oil pump drive belt on those is really a non-issue because the 150,000 mile inspection interval is claimed to be when GM drove test vehicles, took them apart, and found absolutely no wear or other problems with the belts. It was just an interval they put on there to be comfortable saying that's when you might, rarely, possibly need to replace the belt. I wonder if anyone is going to actually do that, other than people who end up dropping the transmission for some other reason and throw that easy repair in there to just do it while things are taken apart. It's like throwing a $100 water pump into a timing belt job because you're taking it all apart anyway, or throwing a new clutch on a manual transmission if you have it all apart for anything.


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

sledstorm1 said:


> So how do we force GM to cover our cars the same way?


Good luck. We've already been screwed out of the special clutch line/slave cylinder recalls and TSBs the Europeans got.

If there's any good news, both issues should be covered under our 5yr/60K powertrain warranty, which as far as I understand most of Europe doesn't get. This timing chain special coverage also ends at the end of 2021. I think most of us will wind up with slightly more coverage then they do with our 5/60. I know I'll be covered until October 2022 since I won't get anywhere near 60,000 miles. By that time I'll be making sure to have a lightly used 2nd gen Bolt in my driveway.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

There have been some pretty high mileage engines posted about here on the forum - no cam chain issues.... knock on wood...

jeff


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

So that may be the better question. Who has had a cam chain failure? 

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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

phil1734 said:


> If there's any good news, both issues should be covered under our 5yr/60K powertrain warranty, which as far as I understand most of Europe doesn't get. This timing chain special coverage also ends at the end of 2021. I think most of us will wind up with slightly more coverage then they do with our 5/60. I know I'll be covered until October 2022 since I won't get anywhere near 60,000 miles. By that time I'll be making sure to have a lightly used 2nd gen Bolt in my driveway.


GM is wishing they had never brought this engine to the USA. They tried to move in where VW exited the market, realized they weren't going to capture that "magic" that TDI has with marketing to diesel fanatics, and they sold the vehicles in such low numbers and with such engineering flaws that they will never make money. 

I mean, basic guess here, but my car has had probably $4,000 in warranty repairs? There was no profit made on selling these cars. GM replaced a bunch of EGR coolers, and now is working through clutch slave cylinder failures.

The warranty department actuaries are praying that these cars get out of warranty ASAP so they can get all the red boxes off their spreadsheets.


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

For whatever reason, GM had a serious woody for diesels a few years ago. Cruze, Equinox, Coloraydo, Silveraydo, Tahoe, and all of their variations and corporate counterparts.

I'd estimate I'm between 50% and 100% higher than you on warranty repairs, some diesel related, some not.
-DEF tank/heater
-EGR Cooler
-Battery
-Airbag Clockspring
-NOx Sensor
-Transmission
-Battery a second time
-One other sensor I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure they broke it doing the transmission and just claimed they "discovered it cracked"

I have yet to do:
-Clutch line/slave
-Flywheel
-Timing Chain tensioner/guides


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

phil1734 said:


> For whatever reason, GM had a serious woody for diesels a few years ago. Cruze, Equinox, Coloraydo, Silveraydo, Tahoe, and all of their variations and corporate counterparts.


In the HD trucks they make some sense if you are actually using them to haul large loads on long distances, but not as much benefit as they used to be. When the Cummins or Powerstroke could be had for a couple grand in a 250 or 350 pickup AND they had better fuel economy AND they were pretty reliable, it was an easy purchase. Nowadays it's like a $10,000 option and the fuel economy really isn't that great AND there is more stuff that breaks on them and is expensive to fix when it breaks.

GM moved into the Colorado/Canyon trucks with the 2.8 Duramax diesel (made by VM Motori) and that engine trickled into the full-size vans. Rumor is the engine will be dropped with the 3rd gen Colorado. Maybe GM sees what Ford did with their F-150 and they know that hybrids and other gasoline powertrains will deliver the fuel economy and performance of a diesel and no one will want the diesel engine except for some compression ignition fanatics.

That 3.0 Duramax (development shared with Opal, who is making I-3 and I-4 versions of the engine for other vehicles) is pretty nice for GM to try to compete in the 1500 pickups and SUVs. It will remain to be seen if they sell enough to make it worth it.


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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> In the HD trucks they make some sense if you are actually using them to haul large loads on long distances, but not as much benefit as they used to be. When the Cummins or Powerstroke could be had for a couple grand in a 250 or 350 pickup AND they had better fuel economy AND they were pretty reliable, it was an easy purchase. Nowadays it's like a $10,000 option and the fuel economy really isn't that great AND there is more stuff that breaks on them and is expensive to fix when it breaks. ...


I don't know of anyone who relies on a pick-up truck for for income that buys diesel anymore. It would seem based on what I pass on the highway that the heavy-haul couriers still do, but none of the landscapers, farmers, contractors or local delivery guys around me do.

Perhaps the only exception to this is the window tint guys.


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## sledstorm1 (Mar 9, 2017)

phil1734 said:


> I don't know of anyone who relies on a pick-up truck for for income that buys diesel anymore. It would seem based on what I pass on the highway that the heavy-haul couriers still do, but none of the landscapers, farmers, contractors or local delivery guys around me do.
> 
> Perhaps the only exception to this is the window tint guys.


I live in Southern Minnesota and 90% of all Heavy duty trucks that where purchased in the last 15 years are diesel. Regardless of brand. 

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## phil1734 (Aug 30, 2019)

sledstorm1 said:


> I live in Southern Minnesota and 90% of all Heavy duty trucks that where purchased in the last 15 years are diesel. Regardless of brand.


Same here (south-east/central Michigan.)

But the vast majority are being used for commuting or leisure (towing the toys or going to country music festivals.)

If you were to isolate the 3/4 and 1 tons with vinyl floors and black plastic grilles used for commercial purposes I'd bet there are more gassers in those fleets than diesels.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

phil1734 said:


> I don't know of anyone who relies on a pick-up truck for for income that buys diesel anymore.


I would not. I'll take a Ram 1500 or 2500 with the Hemi any day over the Cummins diesel engine. The V-6 Diesel engine in the 1500 is maybe acceptable.

The Ford 7.3 gasoline engine is great. That's what I'd buy from the blue oval if I needed a HD pickup to haul.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

phil1734 said:


> landscapers, farmers, contractors or local delivery guys around me


None of them are doing any mileage that makes a Diesel engine worth it. The up-front purchase price combined with ongoing expenses means the local jobs they are doing can be done with a gasoline pickup.


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## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

So I took my car into the dealership on Monday and got it back Tuesday because they had to order the parts in. The rattle was definitely a bad timing timing sensor causing pre-detonation. So I am getting that replaced, along with a new egr valve, and front windshield because mine is delaminating. Should be about a 1-2 day fix according to the guy at the dealership and it was all under warranty too.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

TheGingaBread said:


> The rattle was definitely a bad timing timing sensor causing pre-detonation.


Interesting. No CEL from that malfunction?


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## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

Barry Allen said:


> Interesting. No CEL from that malfunction?


Nah, none whatsoever. When my first check engine light came on, I bought a Bluetooth obd2 reader and the only code I was getting was for the carboned up stuck egr valve which is getting replaced as soon as the parts arrive.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

I thought when I was researching this engine that the cam chain was upgraded/changed in euro version of the motor - prior to my purchase in 2017. Another person here just posted an engine with 150k miles with no cam chain issue. 

My feeling for "my engine knock at startup" was that something was thrown off in the motor where the pilot ignition couldn't work properly. Pilot injection is where a small charge of fuel is injected and ignited to create a smaller ignition event (no knock). This is highly controlled and needs good sensor input (and a properly functioning EGR).

jeff


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

TheGingaBread said:


> Nah, none whatsoever.


Weird. You think these engines would have lots of sensors and diagnostic code for knocking just like gasoline engines. I mean, diesel combustion IS knock, but modern designs go to all lengths to decrease NVH. This is something the ECU should flag as a malfunction and illuminate the CEL.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

oregon_rider said:


> I thought when I was researching this engine that the cam chain was upgraded/changed in euro version of the motor - prior to my purchase in 2017.


When this engine was brought to the USA there were a few technical articles mentioning unspecified changes to meet US emissions. Probably engine tuning for NOx emissions, but I think I remember reading how the glow plugs are ceramic for fast heating and low emissions at cold start. That shouldn't be anything unique to the North American market, because diesel engines sold in Europe need good cold start capability and you think they would try to keep parts the same across most production runs of the engine for economy of scale.


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## Devon Miles (Apr 4, 2021)

oregon_rider said:


> I thought when I was researching this engine that the cam chain was upgraded/changed in euro version of the motor - prior to my purchase in 2017. Another person here just posted an engine with 150k miles with no cam chain issue.
> 
> My feeling for "my engine knock at startup" was that something was thrown off in the motor where the pilot ignition couldn't work properly. Pilot injection is where a small charge of fuel is injected and ignited to create a smaller ignition event (no knock). This is highly controlled and needs good sensor input (and a properly functioning EGR).
> 
> jeff


According to this thread, in Europe the problem with the chain tensioner extends through model year 2019.
Scroll half way down.
Vauxhall Astra k 1.6cdti loud rattle - Page 9 - Vauxhall Astra K Forums

I would bet the chances of having the problem depend more on the number of cold starts than mileage. That's a problem for me, since I don't do a lot of long drives.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

oregon_rider said:


> Another person here just posted an engine with 150k miles with no cam chain issue.


A data set of one is not enough to extrapolate.


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## Keithbodyworks (May 25, 2021)

rcruze said:


> Can you tell if it is coming more from the passenger side? Maybe the belt tensioner?


I've changed dozens of pensioners for what seems like the same problem, they start out by sticking but eventually just freeze up. You can check it by using a 15 spanner pull back on it to see it the retract is smooth of is you can feel resistance.


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## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

Took my car into the shop on Thursday, August 24th and just got it back today. The Chevy tech that works on diesels here had never done an egr job and they also had quite a few problems as well. The replacement part they ordered came damaged so the service department had to overnight one and some other parts too. Service guy felt bad because he’d call to give me an update and let me know other stuff was going wrong and he needed the car longer than originally planned, but it wasn’t a big deal to me. I’d rather have everything get taken care of with time and patience than rushed and something else possibly going wrong.

I have to take my car back in on the 15th to get the from windshield replaced though. I guess this shop contracts all window repair stuff out and the company they use is booked up until then.


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## TheGingaBread (Jun 19, 2021)

Went outside today and started my car to go see a movie and the rattle is back on startup. CEL is on so I plugged in my blue driver and got all these codes... The dealership is going to end up keeping this car.


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## oregon_rider (Jul 21, 2017)

DTC P142A
EGR Temperature Sensor 2 - Intake Air Temperature 2 Not Plausible

From my all data diy account - bad sensor or bad connection/bad wiring to the egr temp sensor.

jeff


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