# Kermatdi vs Fleece vs Trifecta - End of 2015 Inputs?



## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> I really, *really*, wish there was a dedicated CTD tuning section... or at least some stickies. Sans that, I have been searching through the forums and have read just about every thread on tuning for the CTD, but there are a few problems. Most of the threads get mixed up quick, and go off-topic frequently. There are even gassers talking about their Trifecta tunes and whatnot.
> 
> Here are the things I feel are most important to me, in order:
> 
> ...


I have the fleece an very happy ,it gives you 4 choices including stock, its a hand held plug in .
much more responsive even with the lowest tune in. mileage is better than stock when driven easy. have had zero problems so can`t say anything about customer support , haven`t needed any. not much more to say about it. have had it since early june.


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

also throttle is smooth an very predictable.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

That is good info. What are the three non-stock options, and which do you use?


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## moretorque05 (Nov 1, 2015)

I'll be following along with this one. I had my mind made up on the Trifecta, but was waiting for a black Friday sale. 

Hoping for some good info to be shared!


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

moretorque05 said:


> I'll be following along with this one. I had my mind made up on the Trifecta, but was waiting for a black Friday sale.


Is it customary for them (or either of the others) to do that?


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

Flapjack said:


> That is good info. What are the three non-stock options, and which do you use?


30 ,40, 50 horse an I run 30 horse full time. guys at fleece felt the 30 horse was the tune the car should of come from the factory with an I agree. the 40 an 50 are nice but more regens, more fuel.


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## Kexlox (Nov 4, 2014)

Flapjack said:


> Is it customary for them (or either of the others) to do that?


In the Trifecta thread they mention the only time they do specials is black friday.

That's not the same as saying that they will put this tune on sale, but I'll be checking in a few weeks anyway.

They did also push a new version of the tune that seemed to fix the driveability issues for some. Someone with the tune will probably be along shortly to comment further though.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Well.... I totally missed any Black Friday sales, if there were any. 

Oilburner's opinion weighs pretty heavy, so I think I'll be going with the Fleece once I get my next bonus. I'm still mildly considering the Trifecta, but I would like to be 100% sure the driveability issues are gone before I even compare it to the Fleece.


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## Keith H. (Apr 23, 2015)

*Trifecta Input*

I purchased the Trifecta tune during the 2015 black Friday sale. Besides the desire for a power increase, my primary concerns with a tune were loss of drivability, more frequent regens, and loss of fuel milage. That being said, the Trifecta tune has met or exceeded my expectations on all fronts. The tune is truly impressive in its seamless integration into the engine and transmission controls. If you had never driven a stock CTD, you would have no idea it was tuned. 

I'll touch on a couple of your interest, and my observations;

I've gotten accustomed to rolling on the throttle to help decrease the initial turbo lag/torque managment before the tune was installed, so the difference there wasn't huge. I would say its better than before, but not gone.

As far as drivability, the car is a just a quicker, smoother version of its previous self. It hasn't surged, bucked, or lunged once.

I didn't have confidence in the ability of a tuner to improve upon the factory transmission controls. But they did, it's nothing dramatic, just noticeably smoother.

I wasn't interested in different tune levels. I wanted as much HP/Tq that was possible without negatively affecting stock fuel mileage and regen frequency. The tune has delivered on both. 

By chance, I installed the tune less than 10 miles before a regen. Close enough for me to call it a stock tune regen. The distance on that one was 802 miles. The car just completed another regen yesterday. This one came in at 794 miles, pretty impressive for the amount of WOT/heavy acceleration i have been doing while feeling out the tune. 

My fuel milage was down 0.8 mpg this tank from stock, which probably has more to due with my right foot than the tune. Im sure when I start driving like a sane person again, it with go back to normal.

I will say, I was a little leary about tuning a car with 15,000 miles on it, but now I wish I would've done it 15,000 miles ago. 


I hope this helps with your research.


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## 2014Oilburner (Feb 1, 2015)

Keith H. said:


> I purchased the Trifecta tune during the 2015 black Friday sale. Besides the desire for a power increase, my primary concerns with a tune were loss of drivability, more frequent regens, and loss of fuel milage. That being said, the Trifecta tune has met or exceeded my expectations on all fronts. The tune is truly impressive in its seamless integration into the engine and transmission controls. If you had never driven a stock CTD, you would have no idea it was tuned.
> 
> I'll touch on a couple of your interest, and my observations;
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments. I love reading the comments from owners who have done the tune. I've got 16000 miles on mine and have been sitting on the fence about getting a tune for the last 6 months or so wanting to read more from CTD owners who have done the tune...Glad to hear you have had no issues and your happy with it


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

Keith H. said:


> I purchased the Trifecta tune during the 2015 black Friday sale. Besides the desire for a power increase, my primary concerns with a tune were loss of drivability, more frequent regens, and loss of fuel milage. That being said, the Trifecta tune has met or exceeded my expectations on all fronts. The tune is truly impressive in its seamless integration into the engine and transmission controls. If you had never driven a stock CTD, you would have no idea it was tuned.
> 
> I'll touch on a couple of your interest, and my observations;
> 
> ...


Well done Keith, but I'm still not conviced, do I really need a tune? It would improve DPF life? Do you get better mpg? Thanks.

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk


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## Keith H. (Apr 23, 2015)

2014Oilburner said:


> Thanks for your comments. I love reading the comments from owners who have done the tune. I've got 16000 miles on mine and have been sitting on the fence about getting a tune for the last 6 months or so wanting to read more from CTD owners who have done the tune...Glad to hear you have had no issues and your happy with it


You're welcome. Your experience sounds similar to mine. I too, was fence sitting and reading as much feedback as I could find. As well as having a hard time making a decision on which way to go. I wanted to be thorough in describing my findings in order to help others, as much as I could, in making their own decisions on a tune. I'm glad you found it helpful. 



pacolino said:


> Well done Keith, but I'm still not conviced, do I really need a tune? It would improve DPF life? Do you get better mpg? Thanks.


I don't think you _need _a tune. I enjoyed driving the car stock. But I will say this, after driving the car tuned, I would feel like I was missing out if I didn't have it.

I couldn't speak with any authority on an increase in DPF life with this tune. Trifecta does claim that soot production is decreased. That should increase the intervals between regens. Will that increase DPF life? I don't know, but it surely can't hurt. I haven't driven with the tune ,under normal driving conditions, long enough to confirm less regens. I can say it doesn't seem to accumulate soot any faster than stock.

The fuel mileage appears to be the same as stock. I will need a few tanks of sedated driving to see if there are any improvements over stock. But, the increased acceleration and passing power have proven to be more temptation than I can resist. So, I'm not sure when I will be able to answer that question.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Keith, 

Thanks for the detailed reply. Very good writeup. I hate being torn like this. Both the Fleece and Trifecta sound like they are very refined tunes, so it may come down to cost. I'm not sure what the price difference is, but I'll start shopping around more this weekend. 

My CTD has ~34K miles, so I'm pretty comfortable with tuning it at this point in the car's life. 

This feels like a stupid question.... but how do you know when the car is doing a regen?


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## txcruze26 (Jul 7, 2015)

Keith H. said:


> I purchased the Trifecta tune during the 2015 black Friday sale. Besides the desire for a power increase, my primary concerns with a tune were loss of drivability, more frequent regens, and loss of fuel milage. That being said, the Trifecta tune has met or exceeded my expectations on all fronts. The tune is truly impressive in its seamless integration into the engine and transmission controls. If you had never driven a stock CTD, you would have no idea it was tuned.
> 
> I'll touch on a couple of your interest, and my observations;
> 
> ...


thanks for your input! my gf's cruze only has 21k miles but I have been wanting to do a tune on it for that pesky lag. I plan on changing out the spark plugs 1st as I read on the forums that that is what most people start off with. Me being a novice at cars, would you consider this a mod better left to the pros? I unfortunately don't have the place or tools to work on it myself. The car is a stock 2014 cruze 2LT, any recommendations on what to do before even starting this mod? Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated! I want this for that turbo lag, just want the smoothest ride possible


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## 1877 iris ave (Sep 23, 2011)

to txcruze26 Sorry this thread is about tuning diesel cruzes, You will find many threads about the 1.4 L gas engines on this site also


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## 2014Oilburner (Feb 1, 2015)

Flapjack said:


> This feels like a stupid question.... but how do you know when the car is doing a regen?


I drive with the cars info computer showing the current average miles per gallon....when the car starts a regen the mileage numbers drop like 10 mpg until the regen is completed....that's the only way I can tell that a regen is happening...wish there was a light that told you a regen was under way....I've parked about 5 times now in my driveway and the fan was running and could smell a burnt smell because a regen was under way and didn't know it when I pulled in my driveway


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

2014Oilburner said:


> I drive with the cars info computer showing the current average miles per gallon....when the car starts a regen the mileage numbers drop like 10 mpg until the regen is completed....that's the only way I can tell that a regen is happening...wish there was a light that told you a regen was under way....I've parked about 5 times now in my driveway and the fan was running and could smell a burnt smell because a regen was under way and didn't know it when I pulled in my driveway


Very interesting. I usually drive with the avg total mpg showing. I'll have to put it on the instant mpg and see if I notice it happening. Thanks for the tip.


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## Keith H. (Apr 23, 2015)

Flapjack said:


> how do you know when the car is doing a regen?


Gm did a good job with making the regen process transparent to the driver. There are only 3 deviations that I am aware of, two of which 2014Oilburner listed above, from normal operation that would clue you into a regen. While driving, increased idle speed and loss of fuel milage. The cooling fan running along with the "hot smell", for lack of a better term, after the car is shut off is a good indication that you interrupted a regen.

I use the Scangauge 2 with the CTD firmware to let me know when a regen is occurring. In addition to regens, you can monitor oil pressure, coolant temp, trans temp, boost, DPF soot mass and more. It also can read trouble codes and clear them. 
Forum member LiveTrash contacted /worked with the developer of the Scangauge in order to get the ball rolling on a CTD version of the gauge. It is definitely an informative little addition to the car.

Here is the link to the development thread on the CTD Scangauge if you would like to read up on it.
http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/64-chevy-cruze-diesel-general-discussion/132666-scangauge-ii.html


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Keith H. said:


> I use the Scangauge 2 with the CTD firmware to let me know when a regen is occurring. In addition to regens, you can monitor oil pressure, coolant temp, trans temp, boost, DPF soot mass and more. It also can read trouble codes and clear them.
> Forum member LiveTrash contacted /worked with the developer of the Scangauge in order to get the ball rolling on a CTD version of the gauge. It is definitely an informative little addition to the car.
> 
> Here is the link to the development thread on the CTD Scangauge if you would like to read up on it.
> http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/64-chevy-cruze-diesel-general-discussion/132666-scangauge-ii.html


I was one of the initial backers of the Kiwi 3, which should be here in the mail in a few days. Any chance it may be able to pull this information?

KIWI


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## Keith H. (Apr 23, 2015)

Flapjack said:


> I was one of the initial backers of the Kiwi 3, which should be here in the mail in a few days. Any chance it may be able to pull this information?



Yes and no, It will be able to pull the basic OBD II data from the car. But, I don't think it will report the vehicle specific ( regen status, soot mass, ect) data that you are interested in. 

I have tried the Torque Pro app with a bluetooth OBD II adapter on the CTD, and while it did work, it doesn't show the diesel specific data. I believe your experience will be the same with the KIWI.

I could be wrong though, so it would be interesting if you could report your findings when you receive the unit.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Keith H. said:


> Yes and no, It will be able to pull the basic OBD II data from the car. But, I don't think it will report the vehicle specific ( regen status, soot mass, ect) data that you are interested in.
> 
> I have tried the Torque Pro app with a bluetooth OBD II adapter on the CTD, and while it did work, it doesn't show the diesel specific data. I believe your experience will be the same with the KIWI.
> 
> I could be wrong though, so it would be interesting if you could report your findings when you receive the unit.


I'll definitely let everyone know.


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## Danny5 (Dec 22, 2011)

I've talked the Fleece vs. Trifecta tunes to death. Currently Trifecta, and loving my Trifecta. It's smooth and powerful, and perfect for DD.

Fleece has the handheld EFI-Live device, and multiple levels of tune. That multi-level tune thing is great, but really, how often are you going to switch your tune? The answer is never. 

Customer Service from Trifecta has always been consistent. It's always nice to be able to drop them a line when you have questions or concerns. You will always get a reply. 

Which one should you get? Flip a coin and choose. I liked them both, and I like the car better with a tune than without. Just don't expect any MPGs gains. :lol:


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Danny5 said:


> Which one should you get? Flip a coin and choose. I liked them both, and I like the car better with a tune than without. Just don't expect any MPGs gains. :lol:


The big thing is: is there a MPG _decrease_?

Wouldn't expect the tune to really increase fuel economy, but as long as it doesn't decrease it (driving normally), I'm all for that.


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## Danny5 (Dec 22, 2011)

MP81 said:


> The big thing is: is there a MPG _decrease_?
> 
> Wouldn't expect the tune to really increase fuel economy, but as long as it doesn't decrease it (driving normally), I'm all for that.


None of the tunes will decrease MPG if you drive the same as before the tune. The question is, if you are tuned, can you drive it *normally*​.


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

Torque temptation is high, forget about mpg 

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Danny5 said:


> None of the tunes will decrease MPG if you drive the same as before the tune. The question is, if you are tuned, can you drive it *normally*​.


Yup - I managed to drive my Cobalt like a grandma for a couple years, actually (was doing 100 miles a day, so fuel economy was more important than going fast). 

Plus, my wife drives it most of the time...so she'll just drive it the same way she always has.


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## Kalpazan (Dec 17, 2015)

I know it's not on the list but I want to mention tune from EDS Motorsport (Germany). I have it on my Z20DNH (Korean made) diesel engine for over a month now. First 50 miles I did not want to make any conclusions but gave time to ECU (and me) to adjust to new tuning map.

There are two options available - 180 and 195 HP. I decided to try 195 one and so far I am happy with it. Turbo lag is nearly the same if not a bit worse. Throttle response is better. Power is insane once the turbo spools up. MPG improved a bit but not too much. It is hard to say for sure because temperatures here dropped after the tune and now it takes longer for the engine to warm up. Another thing I am happy with is that DPF regen do not happen more often than before. I do not have the chance to put it on a dyno to give some real numbers but overall it is a good tune, well balanced to say so.

It's worth mentioning that I removed intake resonator and I am also using cetane booster additive.


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## Reno12469 (Sep 25, 2015)

I have the trifecta tune. So far so good. Load it onto a laptop and only took about 4 min to flash the ECU and TCU. You can notice a little more higher horsepower gain. Turbo lag is gone for me. Hated that lag so much. Nothing like stepping on the throttle and the car barely moves. Otherwise everything works out well with the tune. I like that way it adjusts to how your driving. MPG stayed the same for me. Only thing mine will do is auto downshift hard sometimes but it also did this before the tune. As far as displays go for telling you what the regen status is and soot level, I bought a Edge Insight CTS 2. Works great. About 3/4 of the gauges are actually true readings. Only thing I don't like about the unit is the size is a little too big and the auto-dimming feature doesn't dim down far enough at night for my liking. 

Hope that helps.

PS. Bought my tune on the Black Friday sale.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Well, it's been 2.5 months since I wrote to ask some final pre-purchase questions about the Trifecta, and to let them know I would be buying in Feb when I got my work bonus, but they never wrote back. I guess that means I'm going with the Fleece tuner. I don't have the time or patience to deal with a company who can't even reply to not just one, but two emails (just realized I wrote them about 6 months ago as well). I used both the @WOT-Tuning address as well as the @TRIFECTAperformance emails.

So where is the best place to get the Fleece tuner from?


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## Snipesy (Dec 7, 2015)

Flapjack said:


> Well, it's been 2.5 months since I wrote to ask some final pre-purchase questions about the Trifecta, and to let them know I would be buying in Feb when I got my work bonus, but they never wrote back. I guess that means I'm going with the Fleece tuner. I don't have the time or patience to deal with a company who can't even reply to not just one, but two emails (just realized I wrote them about 6 months ago as well). I used both the @*WOT-Tuning* address as well as the @*TRIFECTA*performance emails.
> 
> So where is the best place to get the Fleece tuner from?


Waaat they have an email? Learn something every day. Their site sucks, it looks meh, functionality is crap, and it doesn't have any encryption whatsoever (very naughty). I'd be surprised if they even got your email.

Actually they fixed their encryption and certificate problems. I applaud them, cause its a pain.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

Well, I did some pricing around through Google Shopping, and a place called Thoroughbred Diesel had it listed for $660.25 shipped, which was hands-down the best I could find. But when I added it to the cart, it changed to $695.

I sent them an email asking about it, and now the listing is gone from Google. Sketchy. At least I grabbed a screenshot before it disappeared.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Snipesy said:


> Waaat they have an email? Learn something every day. Their site sucks, it looks meh, functionality is crap, and it doesn't have any encryption whatsoever (very naughty). I'd be surprised if they even got your email.
> 
> Actually they fixed their encryption and certificate problems. I applaud them, cause its a pain.


They only way I have ever interacted with Trifecta (since 2009) was through email, with Vince.


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## TRIFECTA (Feb 17, 2011)

Flapjack said:


> Well, it's been 2.5 months since I wrote to ask some final pre-purchase questions about the Trifecta, and to let them know I would be buying in Feb when I got my work bonus, but they never wrote back. I guess that means I'm going with the Fleece tuner. I don't have the time or patience to deal with a company who can't even reply to not just one, but two emails (just realized I wrote them about 6 months ago as well). I used both the @ *WOT-Tuning* address as well as the @ *TRIFECTA * performance emails.
> 
> So where is the best place to get the Fleece tuner from?


Most people that have issues with not hearing back from us is due to their spam/junk/bulk mail filters catching our replies. An email sent to any of the WOT-Tuning email addresses is immediately converted into a ticketed request in our system and you would have received an automated reply within minutes from the system providing you a link to the ticketed request on our site and would have provided you a temporary password to log in and view it.

This has been in place since before 2013. The probability is that we did indeed reply, but it got lost in your email account along the way. We have even had our replies stopped at the server level so it may not even be your email account that's at fault, but the provider. In any case, we apologize for any lapse in communication.


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## Flapjack (Nov 20, 2013)

WOT-Tuning said:


> Most people that have issues with not hearing back from us is due to their spam/junk/bulk mail filters catching our replies. An email sent to any of the WOT-Tuning email addresses is immediately converted into a ticketed request in our system and you would have received an automated reply within minutes from the system providing you a link to the ticketed request on our site and would have provided you a temporary password to log in and view it.
> 
> This has been in place since before 2013. The probability is that we did indeed reply, but it got lost in your email account along the way. We have even had our replies stopped at the server level so it may not even be your email account that's at fault, but the provider. In any case, we apologize for any lapse in communication.


I do appreciate your reply, but I run my own server domain, and route my email through a very "nice" spamfilter (SpamHero.com), that in my experience, might block 1-2 good emails a month. The only emails that get instantly rejected (and not quarantined) are from outside countries. Mail from the US, Canada, and England gets delivered, while email from the rest of the world is just blocked. The only exception to that rule is China and Japan, as several people in my family get email from those locations. Email from China and Japan go through a 2hr "deep filter" before they are delivered, which is a much more rigorous spam processing than countries outside that region. 

Unless your email is coming from somewhere out of country, it would get delivered. I've written you guys on at least four different occasions over the last year or so. My most recent email to you was Monday, and before that it was 12/31/2015. I don't have any sent items older than that. I did go back through my spam logs and verified there was no email marked spam (or ham) from your domain. If your email indeed does come from somewhere like China, that would explain everything.

Also, there are two emails for "Triftecta" when searching the internet for you guys. I've written to both [email protected] and [email protected]

If this is something on my end, I apologize.... and I would love to sort it out. Even though I decided to go with the Fleece tune (should be here Friday), I have no idea how it will actually perform. I've even considered trying both, just to see which I like better.


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## Boog8302 (Sep 6, 2013)

So I have a question for anyone who might be able to answer. Yes its about tuning. My CTD just turned over 80k miles. I have been interested in getting a tune, but unfortunately the last few years life has gotten in the way. Is there a point in which the car shouldn't be tuned? What do you think the maximum mileage to tune should be? Just curious. Thanks.


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## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

Boog8302 said:


> So I have a question for anyone who might be able to answer. Yes its about tuning. My CTD just turned over 80k miles. I have been interested in getting a tune, but unfortunately the last few years life has gotten in the way. Is there a point in which the car shouldn't be tuned? What do you think the maximum mileage to tune should be? Just curious. Thanks.



Ive tuned gas cars new and at 100k miles. Maintenance is more important consideration than tune at your mileage. I'd have no fears at all throwing a tune on there at 80k.


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## Boog8302 (Sep 6, 2013)

GlennGlenn said:


> Ive tuned gas cars new and at 100k miles. Maintenance is more important consideration than tune at your mileage. I'd have no fears at all throwing a tune on there at 80k.



Thanks for that reply. I am a pretty big stickler when it comes to maintenance. Unfortunately due to timing and money this oil change is going to be about 1000 miles over. Next thing coming up is my timing belt and I am tracking that count down like a hawk.


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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

I've mentioned it in another thread..but I also have the trifecta tune in mine. I waited until my 2nd oil change to actually install it. I love how it drives. Was happy before...but after I was so much happier. Car feels so much more refined and smooth. The type of driving I do doesn't lend itself to really good comparisons with average MPG because its so inconsistent for me. But my best 25 mile average did take a leap by 7.1 mpg on a trip between Northern VA and Pittsburgh over a previous one (from 51.6 to 58.7) and I don't drive like Grandpa, those were with the cruise set on 75. One that takes me through the mountains and not on the turnpike. What does that prove? Nothing really in my mind. But power band feels so much more usable, and the transmission does shift so much smoother than it did stock.

Very happy with the Trifecta tune.


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## Danny5 (Dec 22, 2011)

Flapjack said:


> Well, I did some pricing around through Google Shopping, and a place called Thoroughbred Diesel had it listed for $660.25 shipped, which was hands-down the best I could find. But when I added it to the cart, it changed to $695.
> 
> I sent them an email asking about it, and now the listing is gone from Google. Sketchy. At least I grabbed a screenshot before it disappeared.
> 
> View attachment 181401


I bought my Fleece tune through Xtreme Diesel Performance Xtreme Diesel Performance | XDP

I remember at the time it was 660, and Fleece was 695. The prices have since increased by $35, so its an across the board thing. XDP is now 695 and Fleece is 730. 

I guess price increases are inevitable...


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