# 1.6L diesel emissions system?



## 1877 iris ave (Sep 23, 2011)

I wonder if the new diesel will have a more reliable/less complicated emissions system.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

absolutely no way. epa is now holding their current crazy high emissions standards for diesel cars and im sure they wont loosen up. im not familiar with the new 1.6 oil burner so i cannot reliably comment on its reliability


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

pandrad61 said:


> absolutely no way. epa is now holding their current crazy high emissions standards for diesel cars and im sure they wont loosen up. im not familiar with the new 1.6 oil burner so i cannot reliably comment on its reliability


The 1.6 has been out in EU for quite some time, but EU emissions standards on diesel are not near as stringent as ours ( partially due to our trucks as well) . I can't imagine they've done away with urea injection systems. Even Mazda 6 with their diesel had to go back to drawing board because of emissions and performance issues.


----------



## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

1877 iris ave said:


> I wonder if the new diesel will have a more reliable/less complicated emissions system.


More reliable: Very likely......the Cruze diesel had some growing pains not unlike any other new system.
Worked fine on a test stand but in the hands of the public, with all the driving variables, some weaknesses were uncovered.
The Duramax, which had been essentially issue free in its earlier versions, went through similar growing pains when the newest emission systems were applied.
Within 3 years though, the system has become close to trouble free.......I expect similar results from the newest Cruze diesel.

Complicated: Likely more complicated in function but likely with a lower part count......some of the systems currently used have a degree of redundancy......one of those things that happens as the manufacturer learns, through warranty tracking, how to improve.

Between the current Duramax, the baby Duramax, and the knowledge gained from the current Cruze the odds are reliability will soon be a non issue.

Rob


----------



## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

For 2018, the EU is implementing more stringent emissions standards, very similar to what we require here in the US. This will require DEF for diesels there now as well, so manufacturers should be able to reduce overall costs, as the volumes will be higher now, since they'll sell in both markets.


----------



## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I agree with Robby. I think they will apply "lessons learned" from our current Cruze diesels to the new ones. From reading every diesel post on this forum over the past 2.5 years, one thing that stands out to me is that when our cars go in for warranty service, the engineers either get involved or at the very least gather data about what has gone wrong. That being said, my emissions system as a whole has been relatively trouble free. If they make the sensors better able to cope with different driving styles and mainly eliminate the issue with the 30 second window gearing up for a regen, it should be reliable across the board.


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I suspect the learning curve with the 2014 and 2015 CTD is why we didn't see a 2016 CTD (Legacy or otherwise).


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

Taking reliability out of the equation for a moment,the real driving force behind the success of these vehicles is going to be economic. They can tout the new 1.6 all they want, but if the current and new model(s) do not sell, then it's largely irrelevant how good or reliable they really are. I just read today that with tax incentives in Northern CO, one can get a new Leaf for about $10K. What does that tell us? That you can get a Leaf for cheap? No, it indicates that the Leaf is a hard sell and they have to resort to incentives and government support to sell it. The diesels get no such support other than raising the avg. CAFE for GM. I've also read recently that the take rate for the Cruze CTD is now less than 2% and this can't bode well for the future. It was expected to be 10% or more, but it's been about 9500 cars + or - a few per year. That's surely not enough economic motivation to stick with the vehicle. Remember, it's all about the $$ ultimately. 

A recent search showed there's over 400 2015 Cruze diesels still sitting on dealers lots countrywide. Sure , it's far fewer than the Gas models available, but it still shows that there's not a whole lot of demand for the car. This will affect future updates and availability.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

A big solution would be to simply have the DIC say Regen starting in 30 seconds, if you need to turn the car off it stays running until its safe for it to turn its self off as to not damage or short stop a regen. like the Mercedes diesel big rigs, they stay running if Regen or if you where driving crazy and the turbo needs to spool down. i would not mind the cruze staying running for 1 minute on its own to prevent any regen issue, and locks like as if it was turned off


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

obermd said:


> I suspect the learning curve with the 2014 and 2015 CTD is why we didn't see a 2016 CTD (Legacy or otherwise).



I think GM is also reevaluating the " take rate" as well and seeing if it's worth it. You know the new car is done, now what's the holdup?


----------



## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

I just hope they offer the new one in multiple trims, instead of just one. While I personally would option it the same way as our 2014 came, others don't necessarily want to pay for leather. No extra cost on their part to offer the engine on different trim levels, wasn't quite sure why they did that one on the 14s and 15s.


----------



## JRB'sOilburningCruze (Feb 25, 2015)

I got the feeling that the 2014-2015 CTD owner's were guinea pigs. As in GM wanted to test viability of the CTD idea. My car has been in twice for warranty service. The dealer got it fixed on the second try, and I think they received some help from the GM mothership after Patsy contacted me on this board. The second repair involved a ECM reflash and much longer diagnostic time & test drive. The first repair they slapped a sensor in and cleared the code. Second time after GM contacted them they did the repair correctly. A long way to say, that GM is working to improve the diesel technology, and the dealers don't see enough of these cars on a regular basis(which may be a good thing) to really gain a good knowledge base of experience to troubleshoot and repair. I think GM will continue to work to improve the emissions technology, especially after the VW debacle. I wonder a bit, since there is a large amount of German technology in the CTD, including a lot of Bosch parts, if Bosch has been on the level with GM.


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

JRB'sOilburningCruze said:


> I got the feeling that the 2014-2015 CTD owner's were guinea pigs. As in GM wanted to test viability of the CTD idea. My car has been in twice for warranty service. The dealer got it fixed on the second try, and I think they received some help from the GM mothership after Patsy contacted me on this board. The second repair involved a ECM reflash and much longer diagnostic time & test drive. The first repair they slapped a sensor in and cleared the code. Second time after GM contacted them they did the repair correctly. A long way to say, that GM is working to improve the diesel technology, and the dealers don't see enough of these cars on a regular basis(which may be a good thing) to really gain a good knowledge base of experience to troubleshoot and repair. I think GM will continue to work to improve the emissions technology, especially after the VW debacle. I wonder a bit, since there is a large amount of German technology in the CTD, including a lot of Bosch parts, if Bosch has been on the level with GM.



Isnt the large majority of the engine Italian, as in Turin Italy??? I know there's lots of German sourced parts and GM claims it's a German engine, but this engine was originally sourced many years ago with an agreement from an Italian manufacturer of these engines. 

Regardless of whether they are Guinea pigs, except for truck owners and VW aficionados , the take rate will ultimately define the success of the new Cruze CTD 1.6. A salesman at a dealer put it best when he stayed that people love the concept of a car getting 50+ mpg, but diesels scare them and they don't want to pay for them. As I went to the dealer yesterday, I passed a station selling regular at 1.58 a gallon, a far cry from the 2.38 he was asking for Tier 1 diesel. On a 15 gallon fill up, that's $12 bucks. That too is what is going to hold up sale of any diesel product.


----------



## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

The 2.0L LUZ is a VM Motori engine. GM used to own a 50% stake in the company, along with Fiat who owned 50%. During the bankruptcy, GM sold their 50% share to Fiat, who now wholly owns the company. GM did do development work on this engine, so it's not like it's a Fiat engine, as VM is still it's own company. Similarly - the 3.0L EcoDiesel (also VM) in the RAMs is based off work GM did on a 2.9L V6 diesel that was actually intended for the CTS.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

i dont thinmk americans are scared of diesels, esspecially my generation. we did not see the soot spewing mercs back in the day. what may detur young american diesel buyers is a laque of push from dealers and just not knowing there is a VW alternative


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

pandrad61 said:


> _*i dont thinmk americans are scared of diesels,*_ esspecially my generation. we did not see the soot spewing mercs back in the day. what may detur young american diesel buyers is a laque of push from dealers and just not knowing there is a VW alternative


Yes they are IMHO. Unless you're a trucker or a truck guy, its a whole new world to own a diesel, from maintenance & driveability to fueling and AdBlue fill ups. Its the fear of the "unknown" of owning one that scares people. OH, and that "stinky" diesel fuel all over my hands she said as she filled it up. 

Dealer sales people don't generally push them because they too don't understand them nor how they work. PLUS there's a whole lot more $$ to be made on that $60 K pickup than a $25 K Cruze.

Yes, you guys didn't see the awful GM diesels from 35 years ago nor the infamous Caddy V8/6/4 that my dad bought new and promptly took back a few days later because he thought the trans was falling out and it was really the engine alternating between cylinders.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

I have noticed that all diesel pumps are always wet and oily. well some one considering a diesel cruze wont be in the budget for a 2500HD. everyone that asks about my car always says "really Chevy makes a diesel? i always thought only Vw did" maintain is easier on the diesel then the gas. besides the occasional fuel filter drain and swap there is nothing hard about it, the urea add is simple and easy to do and you hardly ever do it

GM has a corvette sales school they should have a diesel sales school including the Colorado and cruze


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

pandrad61 said:


> I have noticed that all diesel pumps are always wet and oily. well some one considering a diesel cruze wont be in the budget for a 2500HD. everyone that asks about my car always says "really Chevy makes a diesel? i always thought only Vw did" maintain is easier on the diesel then the gas. _*besides the occasional fuel filter drain and swap there is nothing hard about it, the urea add is simple and easy to do and you hardly ever do it*_
> 
> _*GM has a corvette sales school they should have a diesel sales school including the Colorado and cruze*_


There's a whole lot more $$ being made on the sales of Vettes, their halo car, than being made on the Cruze line or Cruze diesel. Thus no diesel school. 

About the fuel filter drain and urea add, they don't even want to do that. .......Just put gas (or diesel) in it and go. Let the lil light tell me when to get an oil change or if I have to put air in the tires. Its really how simple they want it. That's why many see the CTD as too much work.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

ok yes the corvett makes more money on each vett but you do realize the money is very much there in high volume sales. if GM is serious about breaking in the diesel market then they have to be proactive and train for it....



> About the fuel filter drain and urea add, they don't even want to do that. .......Just put gas (or diesel) in it and go


quite a few stations down here have DEF pumps that are just like pumping diesel so just as easy. yes the average consumer is lazy and i agree, but new VW owners will already be accustomed to the different pace maintenance and if they want to get a new foot hold on diesel then they need to gear the sales floor for it. instead of pushing the ltz cruze offer the diesel. gets better mpg has way more courage when you step on it.


----------



## JRB'sOilburningCruze (Feb 25, 2015)

GlennGlenn said:


> Isnt the large majority of the engine Italian, as in Turin Italy??? I know there's lots of German sourced parts and GM claims it's a German engine, but this engine was originally sourced many years ago with an agreement from an Italian manufacturer of these engines.
> 
> Regardless of whether they are Guinea pigs, except for truck owners and VW aficionados , the take rate will ultimately define the success of the new Cruze CTD 1.6. A salesman at a dealer put it best when he stayed that people love the concept of a car getting 50+ mpg, but diesels scare them and they don't want to pay for them. As I went to the dealer yesterday, I passed a station selling regular at 1.58 a gallon, a far cry from the 2.38 he was asking for Tier 1 diesel. On a 15 gallon fill up, that's $12 bucks. That too is what is going to hold up sale of any diesel product.


Agree that it was developed in Turin, Italy and manufactured in Germany. But a fair amount of the parts under the hood are sourced in Germany. I wonder if the ECU is Bosch or the programming came from Bosch. The Tech 2 tools are manufactured by a Bosch subsidiary company. So it is not a great leap to wonder if Bosch is selling GM engine control software. If they are, is it similar to the VW software? So if GM wanted to cut save development time, they could shop for a supplier of engine control software just like they shopped for the Aisin transmission. Again, I'm just wondering about it. That being said GM did install the pretty complex DEF system, so I have a little confidence the car does not cheat.

Agree on the price of the diesel compared to gas. I filled up last night and diesel was $2.17/gallon. 87 gas was $1.97. What appealed to me on the diesel was the MPG as well as the power of the 2.0L TD. IMHO it is smoother, has more power, and is much more enjoyable to drive than a gasser.


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

JRB'sOilburningCruze said:


> Agree that it was developed in Turin, Italy and manufactured in Germany. But a fair amount of the parts under the hood are sourced in Germany. I wonder if the ECU is Bosch or the programming came from Bosch. The Tech 2 tools are manufactured by a Bosch subsidiary company. So it is not a great leap to wonder if Bosch is selling GM engine control software. If they are, is it similar to the VW software? So if GM wanted to cut save development time, they could shop for a supplier of engine control software just like they shopped for the Aisin transmission. Again, I'm just wondering about it. That being said GM did install the pretty complex DEF system, so I have a little confidence the car does not cheat.
> 
> Agree on the price of the diesel compared to gas. I filled up last night and diesel was $2.17/gallon. 87 gas was $1.97. What appealed to me on the diesel was the MPG as well as the power of the 2.0L TD. IMHO it is smoother, has more power, and is much more enjoyable to drive than a gasser.


Actually, I give GM a LOT of credit in having foresight and realizing that they were in over their proverbial "engineering heads" when they went with DEF over VWs interesting method of reducing emissions. Mazda also got smart in 2012 right before they were to release the 2013 Mazda 6 SkyActiv Diesel and put a halt on the program until they could get the emissions and performance right. Problem is, VW, unlike GM and /or Mazda, bet the farm on their TDi and now its costing them dearly (and their customers too who see the value of their TDI drop almost daily, both at auctions and on the used car market). 

BUT, getting back to the OP here, emissions are always going to be around and GM has enough foresight (particularly now in light of the VW debacle) to get the 1.6 right the first time. I still believe that it'll be a spunky lil aluminum lunk, BUT not the same torque monster as the 2.0 we now have. Any time I *see smaller*, I think less HP, less torque and more work for the engine to move the mass. Lets hope I am wrong. 

There's an old saying that there's "No replacement for displacement." Turbos and S/C are proving this wrong, BUT I still believe that the new motor is going to have to work a whole lot harder, despite the 200 lb weight reduction, than the leisurely pace of the 2.0 CTD.


----------



## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

It's plain and simple what gm needs to do to the cruze diesel. 

Give it a more sporty transmission or at least a sport mode, give it a manual transmission!!!, give it better city mileage ( this could be achieved with a manual). They also need to eliminate that stupid shift denied message except for maybe downshifting


----------



## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

pandrad61 said:


> A big solution would be to simply have the DIC say Regen starting in 30 seconds, if you need to turn the car off it stays running until its safe for it to turn its self off as to not damage or short stop a regen. like the Mercedes diesel big rigs, they stay running if Regen or if you where driving crazy and the turbo needs to spool down. i would not mind the cruze staying running for 1 minute on its own to prevent any regen issue, and locks like as if it was turned off


Most big rigs park outside. I'm not so sure that's a good idea for something that frequently gets locked into a small enclosed garage.


----------



## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

JRB'sOilburningCruze said:


> I wonder if the ECU is Bosch or the programming came from Bosch.


If it did, I wouldn't worry about it. Yes, Bosch was involved, but they told VW it was illegal. It wasn't something that Bosch did to make "their" engines look good.


----------



## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

GlennGlenn said:


> the take rate will ultimately define the success of the new Cruze CTD 1.6. A salesman at a dealer put it best when he stayed that people love the concept of a car getting 50+ mpg, but diesels scare them and they don't want to pay for them.


Agreed. Low oil prices doesn't help. And for those concerned about the environment, there's always the Volt.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> It's plain and simple what gm needs to do to the cruze diesel.
> 
> Give it a more sporty transmission or at least a sport mode, give it a manual transmission!!!, give it better city mileage ( this could be achieved with a manual). They also need to eliminate that stupid shift denied message except for maybe downshifting



GOD!!!!!! I HATE THAT MESSAGE. i own you don't tell me what i can or cant do, if i want to shift up because your at 1,800 rpm and i don't plan on going faster go up a gear. and when im driving fast and you happen to be near red line or at red line don't say Shift denied when im trying to shift up. im trying to get you out of redline by going up a gear.

i want a manual, or for the automatic to have a sports mode too so it knows when im trying to have fun not save fuel.



> Most big rigs park outside. I'm not so sure that's a good idea for something that frequently gets locked into a small enclosed garage.


30 seconds of idle in the garage wont kill anyone. im just saying have it fun just long enough so it can get past the point in the regen where it wont cause damage to turn it off.


----------



## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

That's a great idea about having the engine run for the 30 seconds to prefent the "DPF Full" message! 

GM never sold many of the diesel Cruzes because they never advertised them. Nobody knows they exist. VW had no trouble selling thousands of TDI's each month because they built the brand. On false pretenses, but nonetheless...


----------



## GlennGlenn (Nov 27, 2015)

diesel said:


> That's a great idea about having the engine run for the 30 seconds to prefent the "DPF Full" message!
> 
> GM never sold many of the diesel Cruzes because they never advertised them. Nobody knows they exist. VW had no trouble selling thousands of TDI's each month because they built the brand. On false pretenses, but nonetheless...



Well, I am picking up my brand new one Monday (CTD) so we'll see how she fares. . All options except for safety ( blind spot, Kane departure) and it also has the oil pan heater which I don't expect to be much use , but nice to have regardless. I was going to wait for 2016 1.6 CTD, but the deal was too good to pass up and I have the feeling the 1.6 will not perform as well as the torquier 2.0, but only instrumented tests will tell the true story.


----------



## spaycace (Feb 9, 2012)

GlennGlenn said:


> Taking reliability out of the equation for a moment,the real driving force behind the success of these vehicles is going to be economic. They can tout the new 1.6 all they want, but if the current and new model(s) do not sell, then it's largely irrelevant how good or reliable they really are. I just read today that with tax incentives in Northern CO, one can get a new Leaf for about $10K. What does that tell us? That you can get a Leaf for cheap? No, it indicates that the Leaf is a hard sell and they have to resort to incentives and government support to sell it. The diesels get no such support other than raising the avg. CAFE for GM. I've also read recently that the take rate for the Cruze CTD is now less than 2% and this can't bode well for the future. It was expected to be 10% or more, but it's been about 9500 cars + or - a few per year. That's surely not enough economic motivation to stick with the vehicle. Remember, it's all about the $$ ultimately.
> 
> A recent search showed there's over 400 2015 Cruze diesels still sitting on dealers lots countrywide. Sure , it's far fewer than the Gas models available, but it still shows that there's not a whole lot of demand for the car. This will affect future updates and availability.


Granted, those cars are still sitting on lots ... but maybe it's because there are people out there like me who don't like the options/color combinations available on the "lot" cars already out there. If I'm going to pay for a new vehicle, I'm not going to settle ever again like I did with my G8! To this day, I hate the fact that I settled for a silver one!!!


----------



## spaycace (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't think we'll see the emissions cheating software on the GM vehicles. All you have to do is look around the web at how often VW owners were having to re-fill their DEF compared to GM CTD owners, and you'll clearly see a large difference. That's why VW owners were so satisfied with their cars ... they were running for a lot longer without needing a DEF refill.


----------



## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> 30 seconds of idle in the garage wont kill anyone. im just saying have it fun just long enough so it can get past the point in the regen where it wont cause damage to turn it off.





> hat's a great idea about having the engine run for the 30 seconds to prefent the "DPF Full" message


GM Here is a great idea folks, common lets make make it happen and save some diesel shame for warranty repairs and save some $ for repairs


----------



## icecube58 (Jan 16, 2015)

There's an old saying that there's "No replacement for displacement." Turbos and S/C are proving this wrong, BUT I still believe that the new motor is going to have to work a whole lot harder, despite the 200 lb weight reduction, than the leisurely pace of the 2.0 CTD.[/QUOTE]

its probably also worth thinking about other (potential) gains from a lighter, more fuel efficient engine: less weight on the front wheels means less need for overboosted steering (more response & feedback); less understeer, and more progressive spring/damper settings that deal better with large, sudden bumps. In other words, make the Cruze TD much more of a "drivers car" & fun to drive fast...


----------

