# Waterfall tires (Made in Turkey)



## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

That brand of tires does not sound like something I'd buy.

I remember that there was a Charger at work that had a number of visual..."upgrades"...and what looked to be SRT-10 Ram repro wheels...and some no-name tire brand. 

His plate was something to the effect of "BIG HOSS"...sure thing buddy.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Those are cheap tires.....


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## Detrious (Jul 5, 2017)

I have some of these on my gen 1. I went through two sets of hankooks that wore bad on the inside edge when on the rear of the car. I had alignments checked on all corners and was told it was in spec. After the second set that was worn too early I decided to just throw a cheap set at it and if they wore down early on the inside edge it wouldn't be too expensive to replace.

Got them in October of 2019 and they've worn evenly with about 25k on them so far. They're magic tires as far as I can tell lol. Super cheap though I agree.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Cheap club tires like these have little to no R&D behind them. They use way older designs by other major manufacturers and change just enough to stay legal. They will have the absolute minimum performance to meet the standards to be sold to the public. They will roll sure but any emergency maneuver will show how much they suck in general.

If you keep an eye out you can get good manufacturer tires on discounts or rebates. Will generally be around the 80$ mark. Yah double the Walmart price but vastly better reliability and drivability


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

I used to sell/install tires at Wal-mart when I was in college, so I have some experience with the bargain brands. My experience might be out-of-date, but it is as follows.

1. The cheapest tires Wal-mart used to sell was the Douglas Xtra-trak. It was a 40,000 mile treadwear, but some time ago it was updated to 45,000 miles. These tires never once came back with a factory defect that I ever saw. No slipped belts on them at all. You could put them on your car and they traction was fine with the exception of not being the greatest in snow or rain, but they were not terrible. It was rare to see a set last the 40,000 miles, but most people who rotated them regularly got about 35,000 miles and it wasn't worth claiming any treadwear warranty so they just paid the few bucks for a new set of the same.

2. Goodyear has an exclusive tire at Wal-mart branded as the Viva. When I worked there it was Viva 2, and now I see it's updated to Viva 3. At one point those tires had a horrible batch of defective tires with slipped belts from the factory. On more than one four-set, I mounted the tires and ALL FOUR OF THEM had slipped belts that were visible on the wheel balancing machine as it spun. I had to go through about 10 tires to get 4 good ones and we sent a bunch back. After that, it was a regular thing for those tires to come back with a slipped belt as a warranty replacement. Then, they were a 60,000 mile rated tire (I think it's 65,000 miles now) and they would almost never last the mileage warranty. 40,000 miles and they were finished, so people would routinely come back and get a few dollars credited and applied on a new set. Owners said the traction was fine on those tires and it was just the early wearing out of the tread that was a complaint, but the warranty paying out on them made up for that if they bought a new set from us.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

JLL said:


> Those are cheap tires.....


I'm waiting to see if they are cheap or inexpensive. They drive fine, and if they last maybe 40,000 miles it won't be a problem.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

pandrad61 said:


> They will have the absolute minimum performance to meet the standards to be sold to the public.


Traction and temperature ratings are both "A" on these, though the DOT standards being measured are so old that it's very easy to meet that grade.



> If you keep an eye out you can get good manufacturer tires on discounts or rebates. Will generally be around the 80$ mark. Yah double the Walmart price but vastly better reliability and drivability


My father is a Firestone retiree so I can get a discount through him, but it's not been any decent price for several years. Tires have just plain gotten to be EXPENSIVE compared to just a few years ago.

I was looking at the Chevy dealership because they often have a poster of a $200 rebate on some Goodyear tires, but when I could get these from Wal-mart there was no tire deal running this spring. The dealership guy was going to get me a tire quote but their computer was down and he said he would call me. He did not call me.

I find it's easy to go through Wal-mart because of the warranty and services. I get lifetime rotation and I can get that done when I get my oil changes at 7,500 mile intervals. I get road hazard, so I can take the tire to any Wal-mart auto shop nationwide and get it patched if there is a nail or get a replacement under warranty if it's non-repairable. Trying to do that when you buy from Firestone or Goodyear or wherever is a pain because they will argue about the warranty coverage from small chains. As an example, I had a set of Bridgestone tires on my Hyundai and when one slipped a belt the Firestone store in my city was not a corporate store so no warranty coverage there. They only warranty tires they sell in their chain of franchised stores, so it was a 3 hour round-trip to get the tire replaced at a factory store. Buy tires from the franchised chain and try taking them to a corporate store and you'll get the same answer: "You have to go back there for their warranty coverage."

It's seriously a PITA to go to some place with a huge FIRESTONE or GOODYEAR sign out front only for them to tell me they don't honor any warranty or road hazard or whatever because [waves hands, inserts reasons].


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

For the MADE IN TURKEY part, I look at it like this: tires are made in many locations all over the world. Are some tires better than others? Absolutely, yes. Are some tires worse just because of the location they are made? Not always.

From what I can tell, the parent company in Turkey makes a number of tire brands for a lot of different locations. They distribute tires into the Middle East. If they can build tires that work in 120ºF weather in Saudi Arabia, they're fine for the USA.

My father made tires for Firestone in the USA and he knew they were defective. He built tires that went on the Ford Explorers. Those tires killed and maimed people. Having them made in the USA didn't help anything.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> My father made tires for Firestone in the USA and he knew they were defective. He built tires that went on the Ford Explorers. Those tires killed and maimed people. Having them made in the USA didn't help anything.


And he didn't he quit when he knew they were defective and no one would listen to his concerns?


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

JLL said:


> And he didn't he quit when he knew they were defective and no one would listen to his concerns?


Lots of people working in the factory pointed out concerns from the start. Ford wanted a cheap tire and was unwilling to invest in anything better. That, and they purposely under-inflated them for ride quality and center-of-gravity issues with the Explorer, so it's partially their self-created problem.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> Lots of people working in the factory pointed out concerns from the start. Ford wanted a cheap tire and was unwilling to invest in anything better. That, and they purposely under-inflated them for ride quality and center-of-gravity issues with the Explorer, so it's partially their self-created problem.


That's right. I forgot about the design aspect of that. Goodyear made a lot of money from that debacle.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

JLL said:


> And he didn't he quit when he knew they were defective and no one would listen to his concerns?


And to answer your question, no, he didn't quit. He was pulling down a solid $20,000 a year at a steady job where he had seniority and a pension he couldn't abandon after investing about 20 years of his life.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

JLL said:


> That's right. I forgot about the design aspect of that. Goodyear made a lot of money from that debacle.


Yup - that's what got put on my mom's '98 Explorer she had when the whole thing happened.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

JLL said:


> And he didn't he quit when he knew they were defective and no one would listen to his concerns?


Defect rates also skyrocketed when the company hired scabs to break the strike. When you hire unskilled replacements and quality/safety suddenly takes a dive, I WONDER WHY THAT HAPPENED?


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Barry Allen said:


> Traction and temperature ratings are both "A" on these, though the DOT standards being measured are so old that it's very easy to meet that grade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yah DOT definitely needs an update since tire tech has vastly advanced 

I got my 4 BFG sport comp 2 AS for 100$ each shipped from tire rack. They where dated 6 months old so not old stock. 100 for install and road force balance and on the road for 500$. Pricy yes but in Florida rains and crap drivers the extra responsiveness and sure footed grip is welcome. You just have to keep an eye out for when good rebates or cash back flip around. Even if you buy them and they sit for 6 months you save a good bit of $$


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## Redford (Oct 10, 2020)

Detrious said:


> I have some of these on my gen 1. I went through two sets of hankooks that wore bad on the inside edge when on the rear of the car. I had alignments checked on all corners and was told it was in spec. After the second set that was worn too early I decided to just throw a cheap set at it and if they wore down early on the inside edge it wouldn't be too expensive to replace.
> 
> Got them in October of 2019 and they've worn evenly with about 25k on them so far. They're magic tires as far as I can tell lol. Super cheap though I agree.


FIND A NEW ALIGNMENT SHOP! A BLIND MAN COULD FIGURE THIS ONE OUT!


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## Detrious (Jul 5, 2017)

There is a thread in the gen 1 diesel subforum about this particular wear. I'm not the only member who has issues with it and it seems to be fairly widespread in the older diesel models for some reason. I wouldn't think that every one of us happened to go to someone who can't align a car.


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## Mark cruze diesel (Oct 3, 2019)

Detrious said:


> There is a thread in the gen 1 diesel subforum about this particular wear. I'm not the only member who has issues with it and it seems to be fairly widespread in the older diesel models for some reason. I wouldn't think that every one of us happened to go to someone who can't align a car.


 I had the same issue with my gen 1 diesel. From what I heard I think it's because the rear suspension doesn't have enough movement to get it aligned properly


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## Detrious (Jul 5, 2017)

Mark cruze diesel said:


> I had the same issue with my gen 1 diesel. From what I heard I think it's because the rear suspension doesn't have enough movement to get it aligned properly



Yea, after reading about it for awhile and having it checked I just chalked it up to "it is what it is"


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## Mark cruze diesel (Oct 3, 2019)

Detrious said:


> Yea, after reading about it for awhile and having it checked I just chalked it up to "it is what it is"


Here's my experience, when I got the car it had Westlake brand on the back that were worn badly on the inside. So I put Goodyear Assurance on and have driven around 6k miles, it's been fine so far


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Redford said:


> FIND A NEW ALIGNMENT SHOP! A BLIND MAN COULD FIGURE THIS ONE OUT!


You realize gen 1 has torsion beam rear axle with no adjustment at all. Everything is absolutely set the way it came from GM. even with absolutely perfect rotation schedule my tires have worn inside, outside, and center evenly. I however auto X and push tires hard. This is 40k on the fuel max


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

pandrad61 said:


> You realize gen 1 has torsion beam rear axle with no adjustment at all. Everything is absolutely set the way it came from GM. even with absolutely perfect rotation schedule my tires have worn inside, outside, and center evenly. I however auto X and push tires hard. This is 40k on the fuel max
> View attachment 292076


This is true. However, the toe is adjustable with shims that are placed behind the drum backing plates. Normally, this is done to compensate for wear in the rear suspension.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

JLL said:


> This is true. However, the toe is adjustable with shims that are placed behind the drum backing plates. Normally, this is done to compensate for wear in the rear suspension.


Realistically most alignment shops don’t seem to willing to shim the rear. Plus if your suspension is that worn that a fixed axle needs shims, it may be time for a suspension refresh.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

pandrad61 said:


> Realistically most alignment shops don’t seem to willing to shim the rear. Plus if your suspension is that worn that a fixed axle needs shims, it may be time for a suspension refresh.


When I was at Goodyear we would put in shims all the time. A lot of our customers would rather pay the extra $160 in parts and labor for the shims than pay for a suspension refresh.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

JLL said:


> When I was at Goodyear we would put in shims all the time. A lot of our customers would rather pay the extra $160 in parts and labor for the shims than pay for a suspension refresh.


When I was in the shop it’s was very rare to even see a car needing a shim. It may just may be my experience but we had solid drive axles or independent suspension.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

pandrad61 said:


> When I was in the shop it’s was very rare to even see a car needing a shim. It may just may be my experience but we had solid drive axles or independent suspension.


Ah. We saw a lot of front wheels drives with rear beam axles. It may be a demographic thing.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

JLL said:


> Ah. We saw a lot of front wheels drives with rear beam axles. It may be a demographic thing.


It could very well be. We had a ton of Malibu, traverse, equinox, pick ups, corvettes. Very far and few sparks or cruzes. And the ones that did show up where newer so always in spec. My area is also full of older boomers on retirement playing golf so hardly and torsion beam axles in the shop.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

pandrad61 said:


> They where dated 6 months old so not old stock.


RE: Name brand tires

I used my father's retiree discount to get a set of Bridgestones on my Hyundai Accent. They only had one tire still in that size because 14" tires had largely faded from use. After about 14 months was the first slipped belt that I took to the Firestone shop in my city that was not a corporate store. They diagnosed the slipped belt but told me "There is no warranty on these tires because the date code shows they are 7.5 years old." I pulled out paperwork with the installation just over a year prior, and the technician couldn't believe it. They were sitting in a warehouse for 6 years and they sold those tires to me.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Barry Allen said:


> RE: Name brand tires
> 
> I used my father's retiree discount to get a set of Bridgestones on my Hyundai Accent. They only had one tire still in that size because 14" tires had largely faded from use. After about 14 months was the first slipped belt that I took to the Firestone shop in my city that was not a corporate store. They diagnosed the slipped belt but told me "There is no warranty on these tires because the date code shows they are 7.5 years old." I pulled out paperwork with the installation just over a year prior, and the technician couldn't believe it. They were sitting in a warehouse for 6 years and they sold those tires to me.


That seems a huge liability for the shop who sold them to you. That’s why I always check the date code before I accept. If it’s anything older then a year nope. I burn through tires in about 4-5 years


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

These tires are great on highway driving. The noise level is much lower than the OEM Goodyear tires and the ride quality is just fine.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

UPDATE: After less than 3,000 miles I found three of the tires not holding air last week. Took them to Walmart and the tire tech found the beads leaking - he buffed the rims with a wire wheel and then used bead sealant. Later that same day one was going low again and he found a pinhole leak in the sidewall - warranty replacement with a Goodyear Reliant (new 65,000 mile tire at Walmart). The next day one of them was still losing air and they found another pinhole leak in the sidewall - warranty replacement with a Goodyear Reliant.

I'm mailing the distributor in the USA to ask for a partial refund. I want money refunded for the two remaining so I can purchase matching Goodyears.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Barry Allen said:


> UPDATE: After less than 3,000 miles I found three of the tires not holding air last week. Took them to Walmart and the tire tech found the beads leaking - he buffed the rims with a wire wheel and then used bead sealant. Later that same day one was going low again and he found a pinhole leak in the sidewall - warranty replacement with a Goodyear Reliant (new 65,000 mile tire at Walmart). The next day one of them was still losing air and they found another pinhole leak in the sidewall - warranty replacement with a Goodyear Reliant.
> 
> I'm mailing the distributor in the USA to ask for a partial refund. I want money refunded for the two remaining so I can purchase matching Goodyears.


Sorry about your troubles, unfortunately with these barely legal club tires it’s not uncommon. I’d be ticked if someone took a wire brush to my bead edge. If my rims truly are bad enough they won’t seal and tires good then I need rim repair not more scratches. Unless it’s a polymer wire brush. The Goodyear club tires I had on my jeep help up well just lasted way less then advertised. I’d trust a Goodyear club tire over a Chinese brand club tire.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

pandrad61 said:


> Sorry about your troubles, unfortunately with these barely legal club tires it’s not uncommon. I’d be ticked if someone took a wire brush to my bead edge. If my rims truly are bad enough they won’t seal and tires good then I need rim repair not more scratches. Unless it’s a polymer wire brush. The Goodyear club tires I had on my jeep help up well just lasted way less then advertised. I’d trust a Goodyear club tire over a Chinese brand club tire.


Most of the time it's just the clearcoat (if cleared aluminum) flaking off and then the aluminum pitting.

My buddy's set of Commander wheels he has on his Grand Cherokee (WK1) started losing air after a couple years like crazy (during the pandemic, so it's not like he was out driving it). He had them powdercoated and he sent me the pics when they popped the tires off and my god were they bad. They cleaned all that up (properly) and powdercoated them so he'll not have that issue again.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

MP81 said:


> Most of the time it's just the clearcoat (if cleared aluminum) flaking off and then the aluminum pitting.
> 
> My buddy's set of Commander wheels he has on his Grand Cherokee (WK1) started losing air after a couple years like crazy (during the pandemic, so it's not like he was out driving it). He had them powdercoated and he sent me the pics when they popped the tires off and my god were they bad. They cleaned all that up (properly) and powdercoated them so he'll not have that issue again.


Most of the time, that's all it is.

However, it has been my experience that poorly made tires, once under pressure can develop porosity leaks in the sidewall due to lower quality materials.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

JLL said:


> Most of the time, that's all it is.
> 
> However, it has been my experience that poorly made tires, once under pressure can develop porosity leaks in the sidewall due to lower quality materials.


Absolutely, and I'd fully expect that's the issue here.

My buddy's was fully the wheel, those things were nasty.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

MP81 said:


> Most of the time it's just the clearcoat (if cleared aluminum) flaking off and then the aluminum pitting.
> 
> My buddy's set of Commander wheels he has on his Grand Cherokee (WK1) started losing air after a couple years like crazy (during the pandemic, so it's not like he was out driving it). He had them powdercoated and he sent me the pics when they popped the tires off and my god were they bad. They cleaned all that up (properly) and powdercoated them so he'll not have that issue again.


I’ve never had that much problems with rim beads flakeing or pitting but we never use fix a flat and ask the bead be cleaned with new tires. Might also be luck.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

pandrad61 said:


> I’d be ticked if someone took a wire brush to my bead edge.


When I worked in tires in college the Michelins were notorious for this weird sort of dry powdered gunk building up around the beads of the rims. It is hard to describe, but the only thing to fix the bead leaks was to give them a complete brushing with the wire brush on the end of an air grinder. It would take all that gunk off of there and then the tires would seal correctly


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## Mr_Pat (Mar 7, 2021)

Barry Allen said:


> When I worked in tires in college the Michelins were notorious for this weird sort of dry powdered gunk building up around the beads of the rims. It is hard to describe, but the only thing to fix the bead leaks was to give them a complete brushing with the wire brush on the end of an air grinder. It would take all that gunk off of there and then the tires would seal correctly


The " white powder" you see is aluminum corroding. .. when they wheel them with the wire all they are doing is digging deeper into the aluminum of the rim.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Mr_Pat said:


> The " white powder" you see is aluminum corroding. .. when they wheel them with the wire all they are doing is digging deeper into the aluminum of the rim.


It wasn't white. It was either black or a very deep navy blue. It had a weird consistency like it was made up of a bunch of rubber particles that were there and were smashed together into a substance that would cling to the bead of the tire and cause small leaks all over the place.

I know it wasn't bead sealant because this happened on new tires where the rims were clean at installation. And it seemed to only happen to very specific Michelin tires that we sold. The Michelins had a smooth, slippery feel to the rubber compound when compared to other tires and we knew a good number of them would come back maybe a year or more later with that stuff built up on the beads, needing to be buffed off to clean them up.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

For reference, this is what my buddy dealt with. The OE wheels have the same issue it seems after some searching (his stock WK wheels _also_ leak, just a little slower), but these are OE replicas so they're much worse, it seems.




























The after-powdercoating looks (and seals) much better.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

MP81 said:


> View attachment 293533


It was definitely not this. It was not corrosion of the aluminium. It was a smooth aluminium surface and it was covered with a layer of some random schmutz that was like a rubber compound stuck to the inside beads of the wheels, and the tires had a sort of white powder on the beads. We just assumed it was something with the Michelin rubber chemistry and it was a mystery to us. All we knew is that cars with whatever Michelin special we sold at Walmart would occasionally come back with bead leaks, and we'd dismount all 4 tires to use the wire wheel to brush all that stuff off of there to reseal them.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Today they found a third tire with a pinhole leak after three flat repairs (sealing the beads) by three different technicians.

The manager gave me a deal to upgrade all 4 tires to Goodyear Reliant for just the upcharge. He credited the purchase price of the original tires and waived the fee for mounting and lifetime balance since it was about 2 months ago. I paid for new road hazard warranties ($10 per tire) and was out the door with a full set of 4 Goodyear tires on the car now.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> Today they found a third tire with a pinhole leak after three flat repairs (sealing the beads) by three different technicians.
> 
> The manager gave me a deal to upgrade all 4 tires to Goodyear Reliant for just the upcharge. He credited the purchase price of the original tires and waived the fee for mounting and lifetime balance since it was about 2 months ago. I paid for new road hazard warranties ($10 per tire) and was out the door with a full set of 4 Goodyear tires on the car now.


And the moral of the story is...


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

JLL said:


> And the moral of the story is...


Spend $5 more per tire and buy the Douglas tires in stock at Wal-mart.


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## JLL (Sep 12, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> Spend $5 more per tire and buy the Douglas tires in stock at Wal-mart.


Douglas is manufactured by Goodyear as well.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

JLL said:


> Douglas is manufactured by Goodyear as well.


Yes, I'm aware. When I sold the Xtra-Trac tires at Wal-mart they were the one notable tire that was the cheapest but I never once saw one come back for any manufacturing defect. People would wear them out and a 40,000 mile treadlife warranty might get you 35,000 miles or a little more, so we would pro-rate the tires for a couple bucks toward replacements if the tires were all in alignment.

Douglas Performance is what would fit my Cruze and those are a 45,000 mile tire. These Goodyear Reliant tires are 65,000 miles.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

The tire manager suggested that the pinhole leaks were vandalism. Evidence against that was vandals would do worse, one leak was on the inside of the tire (meaning the vandal would have to reach around to prick the inside of the tire?), and a very unscientific examination of the tires with the biggest magnifying glass we could find revealed zero visible damage on the inside or outside where the leaks were.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Yeah, that's...just a shitty tire, not vandalism.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

Makes me happy that I spend the not that much $$ on BFG sport comp 2. So far no leaks, grips like car is on rails, the rim protector has come in handy. All for 170 a tire not including rebates.


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