# Quest for Modest & Quality Bass



## Wolverine (Dec 5, 2013)

Placeholder for photos of install.


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Well, you caught my attention alright, but not in a good way. Kicker and "quality bass" shouldn't be used in the same sentence unless you're referring to old school subs. Sorry but there is absolutely nothing desirable about Kicker's current lineup, and there hasn't been for as long as I've been doing this. If you were looking for sound quality, you won't find it at the $250 loaded price point. In fact, the shallow mount subs have less depth and are more boomy than the rest of them. For some reason, people think that shallow mount subs can work well in small enclosures. I've seen less than a hand full of subs that meet the criteria of both small box and shallow mount. 

You won't get truly clean, deep bass out of that sub. I can guarantee you that much. 

Sent from mobile.


----------



## SCruze (Oct 20, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Well, you caught my attention alright, but not in a good way. Kicker and "quality bass" shouldn't be used in the same sentence unless you're referring to old school subs. Sorry but there is absolutely nothing desirable about Kicker's current lineup, and there hasn't been for as long as I've been doing this. If you were looking for sound quality, you won't find it at the $250 loaded price point. In fact, the shallow mount subs have less depth and are more boomy than the rest of them. For some reason, people think that shallow mount subs can work well in small enclosures. I've seen less than a hand full of subs that meet the criteria of both small box and shallow mount.
> 
> You won't get truly clean, deep bass out of that sub. I can guarantee you that much.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


Sorry for interrupting, then what abt the Open air subs, like the quality ones like DLS OA12D, im sure they are quality subs, do they provide deep bass, when in a enclousure of 40 Litre & less depth??


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

It sounds like you and I have similar bass requirements. My son, who plays the Cello, played with my tone controls and got my ECO (base stereo) to hit my requirements. My bass is set at either +9 or +10 (not quite to the top) and my mid-range is set at half the bass. My treble is at 0. The tone/balance/fader settings are independent for radio, CD, and AUX so you will have to set all three. Give this a try before spending money.

Edit: I checked my settings:

Bass +12
Mid +5
Treble 0
Fade -2 (towards the rear)
Balance 0


----------



## Wolverine (Dec 5, 2013)

XR - let me start by saying this is my first time delving into amps and subs. Actually outside of a speaker and head-unit upgrade to my girlfriends Hyundai (used Pioneer and Kicker - sounds good to her) I haven't done any audio work at all. I am far from an audiophile. I listen to my music thru my iPhone with or without the generic Apple headphones, laptop at home, job-site boom-box when working outdoors, and in the car on the road. (Which is mostly short distance driving, with an occasional road trip 1-2x a month). What I mean when I say quality, is FAR from _literally_ being the best sound possible. I have heard a system or two that just sounds like it is wheezing and rattling to which the owner is stark proud of. I only seek to have a reasonable way to add bass to my Cruze and stay away from the '16-year-old with subz yo' stigma. I've heard you say time and time again the stock speakers are pretty pathetic, but personally I think they're fine. So if all I have to do to match *that* level of sound quality is add in a pathetic Kicker subwoofer then I will have succeeded. 

Are you insisting that no product produced by Kicker is useful nor worth what they ask for it? I already own the items I listed, but have no qualms about returning IF absolutely necessary. I have read many posts from you that show indifference to Kicker as a brand one day, then others with pure hatred for anything they make. Another post in particular that states you see no problem with their amps and wiring but to steer clear of their subwoofers. What is the final word? Is the Kicker CompRT 10" subwoofer in loaded enclosure a bad performing unit for $200? I realize I can spend 2-5 times this money to get an acceptable unit in your eyes, but I do not want high-end of the spectrum, neither do I want low-end. I think this one is at least marginally better than the very worst sub at $200... As far as shallow mount subs go, that's probably one of the top 3 reasons I chose this unit is the size. Sacrificing the utmost performance/clarity of a better 10" sub to gain an enclosure less than half or a third of that size is something I can live with. So yes, small sealed box + shallow mount sub may not be your ideal choice but given its compact dimensions......heck if it makes low bass bumps I'm doin' alright. 

If I were to change my mind and use a different setup, would I be better off returning sub AND amp to start over? (Wiring, PAC LOC, and others will stay for obvious reasons) Or is it majorly the subwoofer/enclosure that you see problems with? An amp is an amp (to a point), and I have relatively low power demands for it, but again for around $200 it seems to have the features folks look for along with a clean setup for I/O, from a name-brand - meaning warranty and their not going out of business anytime soon.

You say I won't see "Truly clean, deep bass out of that sub", but that alternately means that I will see bass. It may just be dirty or not low enough. It is rated 25-500hz... so I am supposed to ignore the specifications and believe that it won't get down to even 30-35hz in my Cruze?

Sorry for the bombardment but it kinda bums me out that I try to do a little something for myself to bring some new-to-me bass into my music and I've already completely gone wrong.  Yeah, I'm new to subs. Maybe I fell to the marketing ploy, or maybe I'm not looking for clean quality bass but loose & boomy bass instead. I don't know yet. I don't want to invest heavily when it's not needed, so if I get what I pay for then hey. My $600 system will sound like a $600 system. So be it, if it performs adequately to my liking I'll be dang glad I didn't spend $2,000.

I have mass respect for you, sir! And I'm just looking for a bit of help! Aint no rest for the wicked. 

Wolverine.


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Wolverine said:


> XR - let me start by saying this is my first time delving into amps and subs. Actually outside of a speaker and head-unit upgrade to my girlfriends Hyundai (used Pioneer and Kicker - sounds good to her) I haven't done any audio work at all. I am far from an audiophile. I listen to my music thru my iPhone with or without the generic Apple headphones, laptop at home, job-site boom-box when working outdoors, and in the car on the road. (Which is mostly short distance driving, with an occasional road trip 1-2x a month). What I mean when I say quality, is FAR from _literally_ being the best sound possible. I have heard a system or two that just sounds like it is wheezing and rattling to which the owner is stark proud of. I only seek to have a reasonable way to add bass to my Cruze and stay away from the '16-year-old with subz yo' stigma. I've heard you say time and time again the stock speakers are pretty pathetic, but personally I think they're fine. So if all I have to do to match *that* level of sound quality is add in a pathetic Kicker subwoofer then I will have succeeded.


If it's your first time, I would have advised that you ask me or Terry or Justin (Smurfenstein) first before proceeding. Heck, create a thread and get some input from people. It's a lot easier to set up a good system if you didn't already go out and buy parts that are an inferior *value*. 

When I say quality, I mean the best quality you can get for the price you pay. If I can get you better results for the exact same cost, I will tell you. I too have heard systems that the owners were very proud of. People who had a shop install a $5k system, which then gets decimated by my $1200 install. 

As a speaker designer, I think the stock speakers are pathetic. That is taking into account the fact that I can put together a competition-winning speaker set and tune for $250 plus cost of amplifier, PAC, and wiring. 



> Are you insisting that no product produced by Kicker is useful nor worth what they ask for it? I already own the items I listed, but have no qualms about returning IF absolutely necessary. I have read many posts from you that show indifference to Kicker as a brand one day, then others with pure hatred for anything they make. Another post in particular that states you see no problem with their amps and wiring but to steer clear of their subwoofers. What is the final word? Is the Kicker CompRT 10" subwoofer in loaded enclosure a bad performing unit for $200? I realize I can spend 2-5 times this money to get an acceptable unit in your eyes, but I do not want high-end of the spectrum, neither do I want low-end. I think this one is at least marginally better than the very worst sub at $200... As far as shallow mount subs go, that's probably one of the top 3 reasons I chose this unit is the size. Sacrificing the utmost performance/clarity of a better 10" sub to gain an enclosure less than half or a third of that size is something I can live with. So yes, small sealed box + shallow mount sub may not be your ideal choice but given its compact dimensions......heck if it makes low bass bumps I'm doin' alright.


Kicker speakers and subwoofers are not worth their asking price and produce uncontrolled, unrefined, sloppy, boomy bass. Just the 16 year old kids like it. Their amplifiers, however, are great quality, and most of their wiring kits are as well. I have not strayed away from that notion. I am indifferent at times because some people are so set on using them that I don't even bother. I say "go ahead, buy a Kicker sub and box and let me know in a year or two when you realized you wasted your money and want something that produces music, not just noise." 

Shallow mounts subs by design have weak motors. Weak motors that will then have to fight against a small air space (in other words, a tight air spring) to create any amount of excursion. The lower the frequency you go, the harder it will be for the sub to create those frequencies. Since shallow mount subs are particularly weak, they in fact need a particularly large enclosure to produce the same extension as a non-shallow mount sub would. When I say deep extension, I don't mean 60hz of boomy thump. I mean let's get down to 35Hz. Lowest note on a piano is 28Hz, and lowest note on a bass guitar is 41Hz. Take a guess what you'll get with a sub that falls flat after 60Hz. Boom boom boom. 



> If I were to change my mind and use a different setup, would I be better off returning sub AND amp to start over? (Wiring, PAC LOC, and others will stay for obvious reasons) Or is it majorly the subwoofer/enclosure that you see problems with? An amp is an amp (to a point), and I have relatively low power demands for it, but again for around $200 it seems to have the features folks look for along with a clean setup for I/O, from a name-brand - meaning warranty and their not going out of business anytime soon.
> 
> You say I won't see "Truly clean, deep bass out of that sub", but that alternately means that I will see bass. It may just be dirty or not low enough. It is rated 25-500hz... so I am supposed to ignore the specifications and believe that it won't get down to even 30-35hz in my Cruze?


Keep the amp. It's actually not a bad amp. Granted, I doubt it was a good value. Kenwood makes a nice 900W Class D mono amp for under $200. Heck of a lot more power for 20% less. More power is always a good thing. Better to have too much than too little. 

The subwoofer/enclosure is my biggest problem. Here are are list of excellent subwoofers:
Dayton Titanic 10" now on sale for $100 (a fair price for its performance and sound actually)
Dayton Audio TIT280C-4 10" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 4 Ohm | 295-414

A Dayton HO 10 DVC for $140 (a reference high-output, general purpose sub)
Dayton Audio RSS265HO-44 10" Reference HO DVC Subwoofer | 295-463

A Peerless XLS SQ sub for $165 (low moving mass, high efficiency, very low power requirements)

Heck, don't even order a box from me. Pick up a "decent" prefabbed 10" box somewhere and stick that in there until you decide what to do. 1 cubic feet for the Titanic, ~0.7-0.8 cubic feet for the Dayton HO, and 0.5-0.6 cubic feet for the Peerless. See that Peerless sub? Now THAT is a small box sub. As is this one:

TC Sounds Epic 10 for $188 (would probably stretch your budget, but this has the output of the HO 10 and nearly the sound quality of the XLS, with the same box requirements as the XLS. EcoDave has this sub in a ported box)
TC Sounds Epic 10" DVC Subwoofer | 293-656

These are subs that are worth the asking price and more. Heck, if you wanted to stick to car audio only labels, and didn't need something extremely loud, you would be very happy with an 8" Alpine Type-R in a 0.5-0.6 cubic foot box.



> Sorry for the bombardment but it kinda bums me out that I try to do a little something for myself to bring some new-to-me bass into my music and I've already completely gone wrong.  Yeah, I'm new to subs. Maybe I fell to the marketing ploy, or maybe I'm not looking for clean quality bass but loose & boomy bass instead. I don't know yet. I don't want to invest heavily when it's not needed, so if I get what I pay for then hey. My $600 system will sound like a $600 system. So be it, if it performs adequately to my liking I'll be dang glad I didn't spend $2,000.
> 
> I have mass respect for you, sir! And I'm just looking for a bit of help! Aint no rest for the wicked.
> 
> Wolverine.


You asked for my input, and I didn't sugar coat it. Everyone around here knows that I tell it like I see it matter how much I'll piss someone off. You bought kicker equipment, which is heavily marketed. Know what other brand car audio nuts love but is also overpriced and underperformed? JL Audio. Whenever you have a company that deliberately hides certain specifications of a sub such as SD (piston area) and MMS (moving mass), they have something to hide. 

The $600 system you picked out will sound like a $600 system. However, give me that same $600, and you'll have a $1000 system. 

Oh, and one other thing. You mentioned a rating of 25Hz to 5000Hz. Nowhere does it say at what level of distortion it plays those frequencies, nor their amplitude. That specification would suggest that I could add a tweeter to it and I'd have a great 2-way system, because a tweeter can cross easily down at 3,000Hz. 

Just because a speaker can measure a noise at 25Hz to 5000Hz doesn't mean it will play those frequencies cleanly or at exactly the same amplitude as other frequencies. What if I told you I had a 1.25" tweeter that could play 25Hz. Would you believe me? Of course not. But what if I stuck a microphone 2mm away from it and played a 25Hz tone through an amplifier and registered a nearly inaudible 25Hz note right before the tweeter started to emit smoke? I'd come back to you and say, "see! I told you this tweeter is rated for 25Hz-20,000Hz!"

That subwoofer is good down to about 60Hz, maybe 55Hz, before all frequencies below that start to drop off in output at an increasing rate the lower the frequency goes. That said, just because it can play those frequencies, doesn't mean they will play them cleanly. If I drink enough coke, I can probably fart from 20Hz to 100Hz.


----------



## Xaxas (Jun 1, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> If I drink enough coke, I can probably fart from 20Hz to 100Hz.


Andrei, you won, don't ask me what, but you won man, please send me a picture of you, I want to frame it with this quote.

Way to end the year man.


----------



## SCruze (Oct 20, 2013)

No 1 responded to my previous post, anyways some1 on other forum mentioned that he had Memphis 12 sub & was pushing it to 600w rms & said that it wasn't enough for him, that means anything around 600 w might be waste. 

The cause he mentioned was that the trunk of the cruze is sealed up tight which doesn't allow the bass to travel in the cabin.


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

SCruze said:


> Sorry for interrupting, then what abt the Open air subs, like the quality ones like DLS OA12D, im sure they are quality subs, do they provide deep bass, when in a enclousure of 40 Litre & less depth??


Sorry, missed over your post. Open air subs are hit or miss. I've seen some with varying specifications. That specific sub would work quite nicely in 40 liters.


----------



## Smurfenstein (Nov 16, 2011)

If you're looking to save space in your trunk, I have no idea why Andrei has yet to mention the fiberglass trunk enclosure. Carpeted it costs $225 + shipping, but paired with the savings from one of the Dayton Audio woofers it shouldn't cost much more than what you already have invested in your system. This way you get a proper box, but still have full pass through capabilities.

I will say however that I have yet to hear a single kicker sub that sounds good, and maybe I've only heard their cheap, low level ones, but even a low level sub says something about a company. I don't know about you, but whenever I do work for someone else like washing their car, even if they pay me $2, I'm going to give them a $20 wash job, because thats just how I am. And if I made an audio company, and made a subwoofer, I would rather be chained to the back of a car and dragged 20 miles over 40 grit sand paper in the nude than sell something with such low quality.

Who knows, your Comp Kicker might actually be nice/decent, but until I hear one, I'm not going to spend my money on one. Also, don't feel bad, sometimes having no knowledge in the audio industry can help you out. When I took my first sub setup to a shop for install the guy talked me up to using 1/0 gauge power/ground wire so he could charge me more, and granted it was overkill for my setup at the time, when I redid the subs, and then tackled my front speakers, I was able to simply add a distribution block, instead of having to re-run the main wiring. So don't worry too much, Andrei himself probably got fooled when he first started doing audio work, it happens to everyone, and its sort of an "initiation" experience.


----------



## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Smurfenstein said:


> And if I made an audio company, and made a subwoofer, I would rather be chained to the back of a car and dragged 20 miles over 40 grit sand paper in the nude than sell something with such low quality.


That's one heluva company mission statement! Smurf for Prez!


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Smurfenstein said:


> If you're looking to save space in your trunk, I have no idea why Andrei has yet to mention the fiberglass trunk enclosure. Carpeted it costs $225 + shipping, but paired with the savings from one of the Dayton Audio woofers it shouldn't cost much more than what you already have invested in your system. This way you get a proper box, but still have full pass through capabilities.
> 
> I will say however that I have yet to hear a single kicker sub that sounds good, and maybe I've only heard their cheap, low level ones, but even a low level sub says something about a company. I don't know about you, but whenever I do work for someone else like washing their car, even if they pay me $2, I'm going to give them a $20 wash job, because thats just how I am. And if I made an audio company, and made a subwoofer, I would rather be chained to the back of a car and dragged 20 miles over 40 grit sand paper in the nude than sell something with such low quality.
> 
> Who knows, your Comp Kicker might actually be nice/decent, but until I hear one, I'm not going to spend my money on one. Also, don't feel bad, sometimes having no knowledge in the audio industry can help you out. When I took my first sub setup to a shop for install the guy talked me up to using 1/0 gauge power/ground wire so he could charge me more, and granted it was overkill for my setup at the time, when I redid the subs, and then tackled my front speakers, I was able to simply add a distribution block, instead of having to re-run the main wiring. So don't worry too much, Andrei himself probably got fooled when he first started doing audio work, it happens to everyone, and its sort of an "initiation" experience.


My initiation was buying a Sony Xplod 2-channel amp and having it wired up to a pair of 12" MTX 5500s in a large ported box. 

Yeah, I was pretty dumb once.


----------



## Wolverine (Dec 5, 2013)

Okay so I should have done some extra research beforehand, but hey it was sale-central and I was already Christmas shopping online and it's far too easy to click buy when your credit card is sitting there. And honest-to-goodness the specs are all great on paper, the box is very well built. Heavy and solid, terminals are very nice, tight carpeting, etc. I really didn't think a company that large could possibly stay in business if they make such horrible (as you all say) product. I mean, they're absolutely everywhere and carry a recognized name. Anyways, are the subs you suggested originally designed for a home theatre application? Dayton and peerless? Is that because they offer a better value than car audio? The Alpine Type-R series looks nice, as do the TC Sounds Epic series. 

What I'd like to do is find a sub in the 10" size that has the same specs as this CompRT but sounds better then. Basically the same spec sheet, but one that performs as the specs say it does. 600W RMS would make a good match for my amp. Capable of playing a *REAL* 35hz frequency, since this one apparently won't. (That's some sketchy marketing, nearly false advertising) Roughly similar size or not much larger overall, this one I think said works in boxes from 0.4-2.0 cu-ft. I don't know what this enclosure is that it's in but they built them as a set so I'm sure its optimized for the two to work at least as good as they're going to. 

Is this speakers' main downfall that it will have distortion if played loud or too low? Or that it cannot get the excursion it needs being a sealed box and having a weak motor? (as I read it sealed boxes provide a more crisp/clean bass than ported). Is it a rule of thumb that the larger the sub, the lower it can/will play? So a cheaper 12" sub will hit equally as low as an expensive 8 or 10" sub? I wouldn't be opposed to a 12" if it wasn't for their huge boxes. And I in no way mean this offensively but I'm not crazy about that fiberglass molded enclosure, or even the GM-approved Kicker plastic one they offer (a $1200+ joke). I do get a 40% discount on MTX products but it sounds like those aren't any good either so it makes no difference. 

BTW it lists 25-500 hz, not 5k hz. But anyways I see what you're saying. Anything under 30hz is all but inaudible is that right? So I need a sub capable of 30-35_ true_ hz on the low-freq end? How does a guy weed out the good and bad ones to see if they will play as rated?? 

And if you manage to fart a song 20-100hz I'll build you a tin victory-hat from all the empty coke cans! Lmao!


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Wolverine said:


> Okay so I should have done some extra research beforehand, but hey it was sale-central and I was already Christmas shopping online and it's far too easy to click buy when your credit card is sitting there. And honest-to-goodness the specs are all great on paper, the box is very well built. Heavy and solid, terminals are very nice, tight carpeting, etc. I really didn't think a company that large could possibly stay in business if they make such horrible (as you all say) product. I mean, they're absolutely everywhere and carry a recognized name. Anyways, are the subs you suggested originally designed for a home theatre application? Dayton and peerless? Is that because they offer a better value than car audio? The Alpine Type-R series looks nice, as do the TC Sounds Epic series.


A company that large stays in business because they market to kids who just want to hear a loud boom. They sponsor cars, show up at shows, and regardless of how good their products actually sound, they have an image. That's what people pay for. If I plaster "kicker" all over my car and park it in a bad neighborhood, it's going to get broken into, but if I plaster "Peerless" on my car, nobody will even take a second look. 

Want another example of a company like Kicker? BOSE. No highs, no lows, must be a BOSE. About the most massive rip-off in the world of audio. Google "the truth about bose." Big name, shitty products. 

The only thing that sets apart a "home theater" sub and a "car audio" sub is the big flashy brand label and the all too frequent absence of detailed specifications such as moving mass and piston area. Just look at the specifications listed for the Peerless XXLS:

The Madisound Speaker Store

Now go compare them to the specs of a JL 10W6 and just count the number of specifications. The value is 10x higher. If you want something that competes with the likes of a Peerless XLS or XXLS, you will end up spending upwards of $500 on a Morel or Focal branded subwoofer, with a flashy cone and gold plated terminals, and a product description so full of BS that it would make Obama proud to read it. Don't get me wrong, those subs do produce sound, but not $500-$800 worth of sound. 



> What I'd like to do is find a sub in the 10" size that has the same specs as this CompRT but sounds better then. Basically the same spec sheet, but one that performs as the specs say it does. 600W RMS would make a good match for my amp. Capable of playing a *REAL* 35hz frequency, since this one apparently won't. (That's some sketchy marketing, nearly false advertising) Roughly similar size or not much larger overall, this one I think said works in boxes from 0.4-2.0 cu-ft. I don't know what this enclosure is that it's in but they built them as a set so I'm sure its optimized for the two to work at least as good as they're going to.


What specs are you looking for? The sub has no specs. They're all fabricated BS. The frequency response spec is a crock of lies. Every subwoofer on the planet can play 25Hz to 5000Hz by the standards that sub was specified. The actual power ratings are meaningless because power is dependent on efficiency. Say you took two subs with an identical cone area and identical excursion, yet one was 3db more efficient than the other; that is, it could produce 3db more output at one watt than the other. In the world of audio, it takes twice the amount of power to gain 3db of output, so the more efficient sub would reach max output at 300W, and the other would need 600W to achieve the same output. See what I mean now? 

Unfortunately, efficiency numbers are not always apples to apples. Variations in impedance will skew those numbers. Some may measure at 1W/1M, and others may measure at 2.83V/1M, and it will make a difference which one is listed. 

Every sub "works" in every enclosure size. However, it will not sound the same in all of those enclosures. The smaller you go, the more of the bottom end you choke off. Go too large, and you don't control enough of the bottom end. This depends on the motor strength and stiffness of the suspension. Some 10" subs need 1.0 cubic feet, while other 10" subs need 0.6 cubic feet to produce virtually the same frequency response. It depends on the sub. If Kicker says that sub works in 0.4-2.0 cubic feet, then you better bet it needs 2.0 cubic feet to sound decent because of how low that motor strength is. At that point, you might as well give up because the whole idea for that sub was to not take up a lot of space. 

The subs are not optimized by the enclosures built by the manufacturers. The truth is that those enclosures are the best compromise. Who in the world is going to buy a shallow mount sub in a 2 cubic foot box? Nobody, so Kicker compromises and sticks it in a tiny enclosure and falsely labels the frequency response to make you think you're getting a linear sub. If that sub can play 25Hz to 5000Hz, what then is the difference between it and a $800 Morel Ultimo? 



> Is this speakers' main downfall that it will have distortion if played loud or too low? Or that it cannot get the excursion it needs being a sealed box and having a weak motor? (as I read it sealed boxes provide a more crisp/clean bass than ported). Is it a rule of thumb that the larger the sub, the lower it can/will play? So a cheaper 12" sub will hit equally as low as an expensive 8 or 10" sub? I wouldn't be opposed to a 12" if it wasn't for their huge boxes. And I in no way mean this offensively but I'm not crazy about that fiberglass molded enclosure, or even the GM-approved Kicker plastic one they offer (a $1200+ joke). I do get a 40% discount on MTX products but it sounds like those aren't any good either so it makes no difference.
> 
> BTW it lists 25-500 hz, not 5k hz. But anyways I see what you're saying. Anything under 30hz is all but inaudible is that right? So I need a sub capable of 30-35_ true_ hz on the low-freq end? How does a guy weed out the good and bad ones to see if they will play as rated??
> 
> And if you manage to fart a song 20-100hz I'll build you a tin victory-hat from all the empty coke cans! Lmao!


That speaker's main downfall is that the frequency response is choked by the size of the box and it will sound boomy. Allow me to illustrate. 

Here is a Dayton 12" RS subwoofer in 1.25 cubic feet, with some filtering for cabin gain. 









Here is the same Dayton 12" RS subwoofer in 0.35 cubic feet, with some filtering for cabin gain. 









See what happened to the frequency response? Same subwoofer, capable of playing down to 10Hz, but at what output? This is how enclosure sizes affect frequency response. Your kicker sub will sound like the second graph. Lots of boomy bass up top, and gutless down low. It will also sound uncontrolled and unnatural. 

Generally speaking larger subs can play lower as they can move more air, but that isn't always the case. I can get an 8" Tang Band sub to rattle your brain down to 35Hz, whereas a cheap 12" Pyle sub won't get anywhere close. It really depends on the design of the subwoofer and the enclosure it's in as well as the alignment of that enclosure. The smaller sub however will need more power and more excursion to get as loud as the larger sub. Remember, cone area is king. Use the biggest sub you can afford (with regard to time and space) to use. 

The reason why Kicker 12" subs require huge boxes is because their motor strength is lethargic, their moving mass is massive (to dissipate the heat from all the clipped amp signals stupid kids will give them), and their suspension is every stiff, so people don't bottom them out when they have no control over the gain knob. They are designed to be abused, which is why they sound like crap. 

The fiberglass molded enclosure offers a way to get a 10" sub out of the middle of the trunk and use space that isn't used by anything else. It is very strong in construction and will last the life of the car. It is a very over-built enclosure. That said, it's up to you. MTX is a bit higher quality, but still "made to be abused" subs. 

Doesn't really matter if it's 500Hz or 5000Hz. Either one is still higher than you'd ever take a sub like that. You'd cross it down at no higher than 95Hz because it's not accurate enough to play any higher. 

Anything under 20Hz is inaudible, but you CAN sense it as pressure. Kind of like helicopter blades. You can't "hear" them from up close, but even if you don't feel the wind, you can sense the pressure. That's a subsonic frequency. Try watching Black Hawk Down on someone's home theater that has two 15" or 18" subs and you'll see what I mean. 

How do you weed out the good from the bad? Well, you have two options. One, you buy the crap parts, and when it doesn't sound good enough, you take the good old car audio enthusiast approach and "throw better parts at it" hoping it will sound better. When it sounds better but still not good enough, you repeat the process, until you either spent $5k+ or you've given up out of frustration. Or, you ask someone like myself, who understands sound and knows how to actually design a system instead of just throwing more expensive parts at it. As a speaker designer, I can tell you what a subwoofer will sound like by looking at the specs.

This is why I do what I do on this forum. So I can give people sound audio advice instead of watching them spend thousands of dollars getting to the same point anyway. For the money you spend, you will not find a better sounding system than one that I design for you. That is a guarantee. Louder, perhaps, but I ask plenty of questions to determine what your listening goals are so I can make a recommendation that suits your listening styles. 

As for farting 20Hz-100Hz, I can probably stick a microphone next to my ass next time I eat a few cans of beans and produce that entire frequency range. Might not be a song, but it will measure on ARTA along that spectrum.


----------



## SCruze (Oct 20, 2013)

Really informative Xtremerevolution, what about DC audio subs, they seem to be pretty good, my local shop puts DC audio subs & DD subs.
Infact they are the distributors for these subs.


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

SCruze said:


> Really informative Xtremerevolution, what about DC audio subs, they seem to be pretty good, my local shop puts DC audio subs & DD subs.
> Infact they are the distributors for these subs.


Great quality, great USA-made product, but only for SPL use. I would not consider one for SQ purposes. Each of my 18" subs has less moving mass than any of their 12" subs, and my 18s each have as much cone area as 3 12" subs. If you want something that gets fairly loud, you probably won't go wrong. Not the greatest small-box subs either. They are all high-excursion, high-output subs. 

Their XL sub would probably do very well in a small enclosure, but it's not a cheap sub nor is it designed for SQ purposes.


----------



## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Amar Bose got his start by figuring out how to make stadium speakers, and I mean football size stadiums, that could be driven to their limits without distorting or blowing cones out. The problem is that automotive applications have a much different sound environment and as XR has pointed out in several threads it's not that easy to make the adjustment from one type of sound stage to another.


----------



## Wolverine (Dec 5, 2013)

I understand what you're describing more and more every time you post. I can see that the smaller box is a small win for size and convenience but a large loss for real SQ. But that sucks because theres loads of guys like me who want or need a small enclosure (possibly removable at a moments notice) but still want to have a woofer in the trunk. This one (CompRT) is just the right size for me, about the shape of two shoe-boxes standing up together. I will hook it up and see what happens I think. I'm sure I don't have the most critical ears, nor the highest standards of a true audiophile, so I can only draw my own conclusions. What may sound crappy to you guys might not be so bad for me. I do not mean to reject all the great advice! I really can't thank you enough for opening my eyes, but before I pay to ship this thing back or sell it locally to an eager teenager I'd at least like to listen to what I've already paid for. It's just sitting in my kitchen anyways, looking at me funny... :huh: Based on what it sounds like with my weird variety of music I may decide to keep it, or sell it locally to fund an upgrade based on suggestions from folks like you. I like the peerless XLS and XXLS, but when reading the (multitude!) of specifications online the ohms of impedance reads 2.5 ohms ? Most car audio applications are 1,2,4,8, etc ohms. My amp is 2-ohm, so hoe do those subs jive in the car environment? 

And if I read correctly the XXLS in a .6 cu-ft box would have an F3 (what's that?) of 35hz. There's the 35hz I was hoping to see before! But that's just a spec on the internet...how would I know if it was anywhere near that performance in reality? (if you hadn't suggested it of course). This is what I was alluding to earlier. 

I don't mind having an uncommon brand, or a name nobody knows. I didn't buy Kicker things BECAUSE of the name, as I think I've already explained. Peerless, Peavy, Dayton, TC, Polk, Alpine, any others that offer more bang-per-buck than kicker at a similar size enclosure ? I'd spend up to $360-$380 for a sub with an enclosure. Thanks a million for all your help and tech-explaining...it not only helps me better look at this stuff but others on CruzeTalk and anyone with google that is looking for info. 

Wolverine


----------



## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Wolverine said:


> I understand what you're describing more and more every time you post. I can see that the smaller box is a small win for size and convenience but a large loss for real SQ. But that sucks because theres loads of guys like me who want or need a small enclosure (possibly removable at a moments notice) but still want to have a woofer in the trunk. This one (CompRT) is just the right size for me, about the shape of two shoe-boxes standing up together. I will hook it up and see what happens I think. I'm sure I don't have the most critical ears, nor the highest standards of a true audiophile, so I can only draw my own conclusions. What may sound crappy to you guys might not be so bad for me. I do not mean to reject all the great advice! I really can't thank you enough for opening my eyes, but before I pay to ship this thing back or sell it locally to an eager teenager I'd at least like to listen to what I've already paid for. It's just sitting in my kitchen anyways, looking at me funny... :huh: Based on what it sounds like with my weird variety of music I may decide to keep it, or sell it locally to fund an upgrade based on suggestions from folks like you. I like the peerless XLS and XXLS, but when reading the (multitude!) of specifications online the ohms of impedance reads 2.5 ohms ? Most car audio applications are 1,2,4,8, etc ohms. My amp is 2-ohm, so hoe do those subs jive in the car environment?
> 
> And if I read correctly the XXLS in a .6 cu-ft box would have an F3 (what's that?) of 35hz. There's the 35hz I was hoping to see before! But that's just a spec on the internet...how would I know if it was anywhere near that performance in reality? (if you hadn't suggested it of course). This is what I was alluding to earlier.
> 
> ...


There are subs out there that will work well in small enclosures, but they are not all cheap, nor are they common in the car audio world. They used to be, but not anymore. Image Dynamics was about the last subwoofer manufacturer that made a truly good subwoofer for small enclosures, and that ended with the V3 lineup. The V4 lineup has a stiffer suspension, which requires a larger box. I am not impressed, at all. I offered to review their new 15" IDMax and our communication fell flat. Oh well. 

Keep in mind, it's not about how critical your ears are, because if you didn't have critical ears, you could just have bought some Sony Xplod garbage in a $50 prefabbed box and still had some "rumble." It's about getting the most out of your money. 

Specifications take a while to learn, but I can explain some of them. Impedance is nominal, which refers to the absolute lowest impedance that the subwoofer will subject the amplifier to. You have to remember that subwoofers are a coil of wire wrapped around a cylindrical tube and run through a magnetic field. That coil of wire makes it a resistor, and the impedance refers to the resistance of that coil. The resistance changes based on the frequency played. Just look at an impedance plot for those subwoofers I recommended, and the data will be there. 

Your biggest concern is what the lowest impedance point will be. Think of amplifiers like lifting weights, where impedance is the weight. The lower the impedance, the higher the weight. If you have an amplifier that is stable at a certain impedance, it can lift any impedance lighter than that impedance. If I can bench press 200 pounds, then I can also bench press 100 pounds, and 50 pounds as that is a lower resistance. If I have an amplifier that is stable down to 2 ohms, then I can run a 4 ohm or 8 ohm or anything above 2 ohms. The difference is how much output I'll get from that subwoofer. While the results are not always linear, her's an example of what you might see on a 1000W amplifier that is 2-ohm stable:

2 ohms: 1000W
4 ohms: 600W
8 ohms: 350W

You almost halve the total power output of the amplifier the higher you go. However, like lifting weights, the lower the impedance goes, the more energy you are using, and the more energy you are wasting through heat. The lower the impedance, the lower the efficiency of the subwoofer is. That same subwoofer at 2 ohms might be 50% efficient, but 75% efficient at 4 ohms and 85% efficient at 8 ohms. If an amplifier is 50% efficient, it will waste 1000W for every 1000W it produces. As a result, it will draw 2000W at full tilt. 

The idea is to match the impedance of the subwoofer you are running to the amplifier you want to pair it with at the power level you need.

F3 refers to the frequency at which the output will be -3db from the reference level (often the same as the sensitivity), on an anechoic mounting plane in wide open space. If the XXLS produces 88db of output at 80Hz, then it would produce 85db of output at 35Hz in 0.6 cubic feet. As your box becomes larger, your F3 becomes higher, and as your box becomes smaller, your F3 becomes lower. Keep in mind, I said this is out in wide open space. In a car, the cabin gain will boost lower frequencies as the small cabin is far easier to pressurize than open air.

The F3 specification is more accurate and valid because it is taken from a measured frequency response, whereas the 25hz to 500hz advertisement is nothing more than meaningless fluff. In fact, based on what I've told you so far, you can probably guess what the F3 of any given sub would be. Let me give you an example. 

Here's the simulated frequency response of some sub box I designed a while back. Look at the blue line for simplicity here. 










Our reference output here is not accurate as I modeled it at 10W instead of 1W, but that's not important for the purposes of this demonstration. Looking at this graph, we can guess that we have a reference output of 98db. Our F3 will be the point at which we hit 95db. In this particular chart, that comes out to 65Hz. Now let's look at the black line, which is the in-cab frequency response simulation. Our reference output here is ~103db. Our F3 will be the frequency at which our output is 100db. Looking at that chart, can you tell me what that frequency that is.


----------



## Wolverine (Dec 5, 2013)

15 ish hz? 

And that is why many things I see listed as being "2-ohm STABLE" or others "2-ohm capable" which means that the sub should be wired for 2 ohms but it will see a small fluctuation in that value when played due to the change in frequency. 

I'm trying to figure out the approximate volume of this box, it's built with ¾" MDF and the external dims are 19-⅜" wide by 11-¾" tall by 6-⅜" lower depth and 3-¾" upper depth. Based on my quick chicken scratch that's not even 0.5 cubic ft of internal volume. And that's not taking into account the sub sitting inside there, with any amount of glue or caulk on the enclosure inside also. Sheesh talk about being small as crap. That is super tiny. Now you know that when I hook this up I will be finding reasons all over why it doesn't sound awesome. Heck if I had never become a member here or bothered to research a bit more into SQ I probably would have lived happily ever after without any worries about the sub because I didn't know any better! Blimey!


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

What do you need an enclosure for ? All you need is a frame , and you could set 2 subs in that huge Hole of a trunk ....


----------



## Wolverine (Dec 5, 2013)

Just an update, I don't like to revive long dead posts, but in case anyone searches for this type of thing in the future to whom this may help:

I have successfully installed the GM Pac Loc in the Cruze, easy to do. I spliced the power into the yellow wire on the Pac itself (tapped into its own harness for power - pin 44 at the large radio T-connector area). I made it fit to the right of the radio....barely. Ran my RCA cables, remote turn on lead, and grounds down the right side of the vehicle and into the trunk. Ran the power wire from the battery distribution block through the hole above the clutch pedal, down the left side of the vehicle, into the trunk. I have everything fully operational and hidden/cleaned up in the cabin. Once I have more hours on the setup to ensure proper function I will take steps to hide any excess wiring in the trunk itself and mount the amp under the rear decklid. I will use high strength industrial Velcro to hold the sub enclosure to the inside of the trunk. Easily removable and plenty strong to keep it from sliding left and right or tipping over. 

The verdict: It's a Kicker sub. Sounds like it is supposed to from what everyone says. It makes your car go boom boom. With the rear seats up or down, I can tell very little if any difference from the drivers seat so I just leave the seats up to keep it clean. The sub is in a tapered box and is facing forwards and matches the angle nicely on the back seats. (It's not touching, don't worry!) And I have honestly not turned it anywhere near all the way up yet, probably not even half way. It's working well for my purposes, was easy and cheap to do, every piece of equipment is working well together as a system. Best part is that the enclosure is so small I lost very little of my precious trunk space, which is EXACTLY what I was going for. Sound quality? It seems fine, really. The stock speakers have been called rubbish, and I'm sure they're nothing special but they work fine for me right now, and this sub works well with them. It's not overpowering, but it adds a nice bump to the bass line on a lot of my music. I can tell when a song is bass heavy now, also. I have the remote bass control switch from Kicker that was plug and play so I don't have to go into the tuning adjustment on the radio to change the volume on the sub, just a quick spin of the knob gets things right where you need them. 

I doubt I'll upgrade for quite a while. Probably until my next vehicle. For a compact car and on a budget like this, I'm content. Yes I understand there are nicer subs to be had, maybe even for less money but what the ****....this is as plug-n-play as it gets. No math or complex wiring diagrams. I'll never overheat or fry my components from the use they'll see, factory warranty and all that on top.... win win. All my radio functions remain stock, didn't splice a single wire. If I sell the car, nobody would ever guess it had an aftermarket sub installed. Would I recommend this setup to someone else? Not if you have an audiophiles ears. If not, and you want a compact sub, box, and amp? You bet. Works slick no adjusting/tuning on my part, and that amp is SO compact! Like the size of a thick steak! Hey that sounds good... I think I'll go grill out and relax outside....live the good life. 

Cheers.
Logan


----------



## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks for the update, Logan.


----------



## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Totally agree with you logan , and although I prefer an upgrade to the OEM front speakers that do give a better front stage .


----------

