# LSPI



## SBahr (Jun 2, 2020)

My car has had this happen twice now and its a 2017. Unfortunately it has 115,000 miles and no factory warranty. Why hasnt this been recalled? What is Genral Motors doing about this?

Shasta


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

How do you know it's happened?


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## SBahr (Jun 2, 2020)

snowwy66 said:


> How do you know it's happened?


Engine light is on. It runs rough when at idle. Also says check traction control and gives code p0301.


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

Welcome Aboard!

*New AMSOIL Signature Series Formulation and Change Interval*
This is the 1st line from this thread:

Some exciting news about AMSOIL.

AMSOIL Signature Series has some huge improvements. NOACK volatility is down across the board, the oil now touts *100% guarantee against LSPI*, and most impressively, the severe service limitation has changed.


A code P0301 may mean that one or more of the following has happened: 

Faulty spark plug or wire 
Faulty coil (pack) 
Faulty oxygen sensor(s) 
Faulty fuel injector 
Burned exhaust valve 
Faulty catalytic converter(s) 
Running out of fuel 
Poor compression 
Defective computer

Read more at: OBD-II Trouble Code: P0301 Cylinder 1 One Misfire Detected

I have never heard of this company, but this is a decent explanation video:






@XtremeRevolution


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

You say it's the second time, what was done to repair it the first time? 

I've only seen one repeat failure since 2016, and it was very early on, on a car that was being neglected.


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## SBahr (Jun 2, 2020)

Ma v e n said:


> You say it's the second time, what was done to repair it the first time?
> 
> I've only seen one repeat failure since 2016, and it was very early on, on a car that was being neglected.


The first time i dont think i put full synthetic in. It had 37 000 miles and was under warranty. Now its doing the same type of thing. Runs very rough on low rpms, engine light blinks, says to check traction control, has no power. happened two states away from home. Changed oil with mobile 1 full synthetic. 


Blasirl said:


> Welcome Aboard!
> 
> *New AMSOIL Signature Series Formulation and Change Interval*
> This is the 1st line from this thread:
> ...


What is a severe service limitation change?


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

You need to have problem diagnosed before you claim the same problem.

As posted above. Numerous things can cause 0301.

There are updated pistons. No one has posted of a second occurence. I haven't seen anyways. Maybe someone else has.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

SBahr, what failed the first time? What did you have repaired?


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## Blasirl (Mar 31, 2015)

SBahr said:


> The first time i dont think i put full synthetic in. It had 37 000 miles and was under warranty. Now its doing the same type of thing. Runs very rough on low rpms, engine light blinks, says to check traction control, has no power. happened two states away from home. Changed oil with mobile 1 full synthetic.
> 
> What is a severe service limitation change?


You should click on the red text and read it. 

This is the next section of that post:
Before, it used to be that you could run 25k miles in normal service or 15k miles in severe service, and turbocharged engines like our 1.4L Turbo were classified as severe service - not anymore. The 25,000 mile guarantee now holds whether or not your engine has a turbo, so those of you driving a lot every year can go a full 25,000 miles with a filter change every ~8500 miles.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

SBahr said:


> What is Genral Motors doing about this?


At some point GM put out an ECU update. This, possibly combined with new pistons in some cars that had cracked pistons, has some fixes for the issue. Was your car ever updated with the new ECU programming?


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> At some point GM put out an ECU update. This, possibly combined with new pistons in some cars that had cracked pistons, has some fixes for the issue. Was your car ever updated with the new ECU programming?


I had my '17 in for service for the info screen in the fall and had them check for updates for the ECU for the LSPI problem and they said there were none. when did the updates come out?


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

WillL84 said:


> I had my '17 in for service for the info screen in the fall and had them check for updates for the ECU for the LSPI problem and they said there were none. when did the updates come out?


Sometime in 2019:


https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10163888-9999.pdf



*Note: For the Cruze vehicles only – A calibration has been released that will help to reduce the possibility of a cracked piston. Update the engine control module to the latest calibration available.*


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> Sometime in 2019:
> 
> 
> https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10163888-9999.pdf
> ...


Oh nice. I'll have to get ahold of my dealer and get my car in and see if it has been applied. Then again I have no cEL and I know sometimes they won't do anything like that without the "concern" present.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

WillL84 said:


> Oh nice. I'll have to get ahold of my dealer and get my car in and see if it has been applied. Then again I have no cEL and I know sometimes they won't do anything like that without the "concern" present.


If you are out of warranty your dealership might balk at giving you a free software update. If they refuse to do it unless you pay out of pocket, you would be better off making sure you use mid-grade or premium fuel every time you fill up the tank and letting it ride.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

In the USA at least, ECM warranty is 8yr/80k miles. You might be in.


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> If you are out of warranty your dealership might balk at giving you a free software update. If they refuse to do it unless you pay out of pocket, you would be better off making sure you use mid-grade or premium fuel every time you fill up the tank and letting it ride.


I'm still in warranty thankfully but I've been running 93 in it 🤞


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

Barry Allen said:


> Sometime in 2019:
> 
> 
> https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10163888-9999.pdf
> ...


Well I made an appointment for 4pm friday to see about the calibration 🤞


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Let us know what happens. I've got 3 1/2 months left.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

This is a problem that affects tons of small turbo GDI motors, not just GM's.

-Run high octane, not 87. 87 has no place in turbocharged engines.
-Run a GOOD synthetic oil.
-Try to keep from lugging the engine up hills. Hard with the auto trans programming that needs a good boot to get it to downshift so it's not climbing a hill at 1200 RPM though

When pistons are replaced, they should update the ECM and use the updated part number for pistons.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

jblackburn said:


> When pistons are replaced, they should update the ECM and use the updated part number for pistons.


That makes me wonder if the ECM update is some weird thing where it's only for new pistons and not to be used with old pistons. I don't know how that could be a thing but it seems like an answer GM would give.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Barry Allen said:


> That makes me wonder if the ECM update is some weird thing where it's only for new pistons and not to be used with old pistons. I don't know how that could be a thing but it seems like an answer GM would give.


I doubt it. Probably mostly tune tweaking to avoid high load low rpm conditions and updated trans tuning for the automatics.


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

jblackburn said:


> This is a problem that affects tons of small turbo GDI motors, not just GM's.
> 
> -Run high octane, not 87. 87 has no place in turbocharged engines.
> -Run a GOOD synthetic oil.
> ...


My problem is I'm sure I'll be out of the 5yr/60k warranty by the time I get to the mileage where these motors go. If I can get the ECM programming and prevent it that'd be ideal


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

WillL84 said:


> My problem is I'm sure I'll be out of the 5yr/60k warranty by the time I get to the mileage where these motors go. If I can get the ECM programming and prevent it that'd be ideal


Seems like most usually blow up by 30-40k if they're going to. The later ones seem to be second owner cars that probably don't know to run a good oil that avoids LSPI etc

I'm at 45k on my 16 and she's good so far. Got about a year of powertrain left


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

jblackburn said:


> Seems like most usually blow up by 30-40k if they're going to. The later ones seem to be second owner cars that probably don't know to run a good oil that avoids LSPI etc
> 
> I'm at 45k on my 16 and she's good so far. Got about a year of powertrain left


I'm not even at 15k yet on my '17 with 2 years left. If my plan to buy a new motorcycle happens this year it'll be even less mileage added. I'm currently doing about 200 mi/wk but if the motorcycle thing happens it'll be like maybe 40-50/wk (depending on weather) for about 8-9 months of the year


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

Barry Allen said:


> If you are out of warranty your dealership might balk at giving you a free software update. If they refuse to do it unless you pay out of pocket...


If you're out of warranty, they better balk at giving free software updates and refuse to do work unless paid 

When I'm out money businesses don't just give me stuff for free. 

Why does it constantly get suggested and seems to be an implicit expectation that dealers should fix things for free in perpetuity. And those that don't are somehow "bad".


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Ma v e n said:


> If you're out of warranty, they better balk at giving free software updates and refuse to do work unless paid


This seems like an issue GM should cover as a straight-up recall on all affected Cruze vehicles. I'd want to have whatever software update is necessary to keep customers' cars from cracking pistons, even for the second, third, and subsequent owners after warranty. Maybe I'm just a nice person, but if I ran a company and could push out a software update that saves second-hand customers from eating thousands in repair costs, that's a goodwill thing to strengthen your brand.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

Barry Allen said:


> This seems like an issue GM should cover as a straight-up recall on all affected Cruze vehicles. I'd want to have whatever software update is necessary to keep customers' cars from cracking pistons, even for the second, third, and subsequent owners after warrant. Maybe I'm just a nice person, but if I ran a company and could push out a software update that saves second-hand customers from eating thousands in repair costs, that's a goodwill thing to strengthen your brand.


If it was an O.T.A update like infotainment, or similar to what Tesla does (though what Tesla does is a whole other story of abuse) I'd agree. 

But that's not how 8t would need to happen , you'd need to have approximately 350,000 U.S. Cruzes come into the dealer to be programmed. That's 350,000 chances to piss off customers. They average person doesn't get excited there's a recall, or service update, on their vehicle. Most people feel inconvenienced, concerned that their car is gonna break, pissed off they have to go to the dealer for no reason....that doesn't build Goodwill. Second hand customers experiencing Goodwill is nonsense as well, many of the cars would have had the update before the 2nd owner, that 2nd owner would never know or care that it was done. Only customers who had bought a car that DiDNT get the update would have an opinion on it. And again you're more likely to find a car that would die for the second owner, that doesn't build Goodwill. A car that didn't die, and needed the update would again likely piss off a customer and make them wonder if their vehicle was neglected.

All you have to do is look around here and see all the "I'm going back to XXX" and "Never again" to see that very few people even have any brand loyalty anyway, and a lot of them change brands because of experiences in the dealer... GM doesn't want your car to have to be taken to the dealer, unless you're buying maintenance. They never want a customer to have to bring in a vehicle for a repair, update, etc....


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Ma v e n said:


> If it was an O.T.A update like infotainment


True story about that. A friend of mine just bought a new Jeep Renegade and within a month of ownership she got a letter about a recall. The reverse camera display can get stuck on the screen causing the driver to be distracted. The fix was Fiat-Chrysler sending an update out OTA for her to click "update" on the radio screen. Either that, or it could be downloaded to a USB drive from the Uconnect website for an update in the car.

It's a shame ECU programming isn't that easy, but it opens up for hacking problems or other glitches.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

It's not that easy on the Cruze. But it is coming for GM.


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## Fireworks234 (Jan 4, 2018)

Ma v e n said:


> If it was an O.T.A update like infotainment, or similar to what Tesla does (though what Tesla does is a whole other story of abuse) I'd agree.
> 
> But that's not how 8t would need to happen , you'd need to have approximately 350,000 U.S. Cruzes come into the dealer to be programmed. That's 350,000 chances to piss off customers. They average person doesn't get excited there's a recall, or service update, on their vehicle. Most people feel inconvenienced, concerned that their car is gonna break, pissed off they have to go to the dealer for no reason....that doesn't build Goodwill. Second hand customers experiencing Goodwill is nonsense as well, many of the cars would have had the update before the 2nd owner, that 2nd owner would never know or care that it was done. Only customers who had bought a car that DiDNT get the update would have an opinion on it. And again you're more likely to find a car that would die for the second owner, that doesn't build Goodwill. A car that didn't die, and needed the update would again likely piss off a customer and make them wonder if their vehicle was neglected.
> 
> All you have to do is look around here and see all the "I'm going back to XXX" and "Never again" to see that very few people even have any brand loyalty anyway, and a lot of them change brands because of experiences in the dealer... GM doesn't want your car to have to be taken to the dealer, unless you're buying maintenance. They never want a customer to have to bring in a vehicle for a repair, update, etc....


This is no joke. I was selling cars when recalls by GM were huge. We were getting recalls left and right for the trucks, Traverses, etc. I wanted people to be happier that GM was giving them recalls to fix known issues but instead it was viewed that GM was a bad brand. It was silly because all of the other manufacturers had just as many known issues, but GM was actually trying to address them. It was such a strange stigma that I had to overcome when I was out there selling them and with a lot of people, you cannot convince them that they were doing the right things. So, the other salespeople and I realized that GM would have been better off not doing anything because it just ends up being bad press.


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## Iamantman (Sep 24, 2018)

Ma v e n said:


> If it was an O.T.A update like infotainment, or similar to what Tesla does (though what Tesla does is a whole other story of abuse) I'd agree.


Hey Maven, seems to me what Tesla is doing is pretty smart and efficient and most likely the future of the auto industry. Just curious what you meant here as "another story of abuse" Do you mean like it's forcing updates similar to complains people have with Windows or Mac OS? If so, that's fair but the alternative like Barry said is much worse. And I agree with your paragraph about issuing a recall would have the opposite effect of improving brand loyalty.


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

Iamantman said:


> Hey Maven, seems to me what Tesla is doing is pretty smart and efficient and most likely the future of the auto industry. Just curious what you meant here as "another story of abuse" Do you mean like it's forcing updates similar to complains people have with Windows or Mac OS? If so, that's fair but the alternative like Barry said is much worse. And I agree with your paragraph about issuing a recall would have the opposite effect of improving brand loyalty.


My guess is he's referring to the BS Tesla has been doing with used cars.This aritcle on Jalopnik is about Tesla removing features (Autopilot and Ludacris Mode) via OTA updates on used vehicles because the second owner "didn't pay for those features". What a load of BS









Tesla Remotely Removes Autopilot Features From Customer's Used Tesla Without Any Notice [Updated]


One of the less-considered side effects of car features moving from hardware to software is that important features and abilities of a car can now be removed without any actual contact with a given car. Where once de-contenting involved at least a screwdriver (or, if you were in a hurry, a...




jalopnik.com


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## Iamantman (Sep 24, 2018)

Ahh yeah that's messed up. If you buy a product you should get whatever came with it when purchased, not he other way around.


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## WillL84 (Aug 5, 2019)

Iamantman said:


> Ahh yeah that's messed up. If you buy a product you should get whatever came with it when purchased, not he other way around.


Exactly. It'd be like GM removing the NAV from your Cruze because the original owner bought it not you 🙄


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

Exactly what I'm referring too. They've been removing features from cars via software. They've pulled autopilot, ludicrous mode, they've derated batteries, they've pulled software updates on cars that people have worked on themselves, they've bricked modules/cars that were rebuilt.

Since they don't build internal combustion vehicles they found a loophole in regulations and don't have to act like a normal car manufacturer. They don't have to provide their service manuals, they don't allow you have their diagnostic tool, you can't buy original parts, and very few aftermarket parts exist.


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## Iamantman (Sep 24, 2018)

Ah understood. Yeah that needs to be addressed by someone so it doesn't get out of hand. Maybe the NHTSA?

Speaking of Tesla though have you all been watching Munroe's channel where they have disassembled a Model Y step by step and analyzed the construction and manufacturing? It's been really great content and for mechanically minded folks very interesting. I've learned so much already watching the Model Y teardown. They're getting ready to do the Cybertruck as soon as that launches and have already done a few introductory videos comparing it to comparable models from Chevy, Ford, and Dodge. Good ****.

Here's their home page: Munroe Live


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## wtsheff (Jun 26, 2021)

Ma v e n said:


> In the USA at least, ECM warranty is 8yr/80k miles. You might be in.


Do you have access 2 documents that can back up this statement? My car only has 3300 miles and the dealership just charged me $300 for the update no matter how much I complained.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

wtsheff said:


> Do you have access 2 documents that can back up this statement? My car only has 3300 miles and the dealership just charged me $300 for the update no matter how much I complained.


*Federal Warranty Coverage
Car or Light Duty Truck with a Gross Vehicle Weight
Rating (GVWR) of 8,500 lbs. or less ‐ 2 years or 24,000 miles and 8 years or 80,000 miles for the catalytic converter, vehicle/ powertrain control module, transmission control module or other onboard emissions diagnostic device, including emission-related software, whichever comes first.*

Difficulty: an ECU update for LSPI is not "emissions-related" software. You could keep the old ECU firmware and the emissions are still intact.


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