# Fuel mileage loss, fix = clean the Map Sensor again.



## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Fuel mileage loss, fix = clean the Map Sensor again.
I might just buy a couple of them and replace it every 12 months while cleaning every six months.
I have never had to do such a thing to any other vehicle I have owned. I have never owned a boosted car before.
Cheers.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Details? I wasn't aware this was an issue with our cars. 

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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Details? I wasn't aware this was an issue with our cars.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV using Tapatalk


I was having dropping fuel mileage before and pulled the map sensor to clean it, made a large difference especially on the low end.
This is the second time I have done this so I'm thinking I will just make it a 6 month service thing with me including replace every 12 months. It gets quite sooted up and I dont really do alot of regens.
Im actually surprised it makes such a large difference since its not meant to be cleaned or replaced so often.

Edit.
I have owned the car for less than 18 months.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I think you're the first person I've heard having to do this. Are you using low-sulfur diesel from a reputable source?


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## TheRealHip (Sep 1, 2014)

Do you mean the MAF sensor?


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

obermd said:


> I think you're the first person I've heard having to do this. Are you using low-sulfur diesel from a reputable source?


Shell V-Power Nitro, *ULSD* 15ppm or lower.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

TheRealHip said:


> Do you mean the MAF sensor?


No I mean MAP Sensor, (SENSOR ASM-MAP), also known as Manifold Differential Pressure Sensor. ACDELCO OE SERVICE CANADA

The *MAP sensor* converts engine vacuum/manifold pressure to an electrical signal so the computer knows how much load the engine is under. This data is the basis for fuel delivery and timing control. The *MAP sensor* is typically located in the air cleaner, fender wall, firewall, intake manifold or under the dash.

I am of the opinion that the MAP sensor is extremely important for our engine especially if you have a light foot like me. People with a heavy foot will notice a much smaller difference to start with. 

I am thinking the place where the MAP sits should have been designed a little better so the soot would flow away from it, so it does not soot load so fast.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Cruz15 said:


> Shell V-Power Nitro, *ULSD* 15ppm or lower.


Arguably the finest diesel available on the North American market.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Cruz15 said:


> No I mean MAP Sensor, (SENSOR ASM-MAP), also known as Manifold Differential Pressure Sensor. ACDELCO OE SERVICE CANADA
> 
> The *MAP sensor* converts engine vacuum/manifold pressure to an electrical signal so the computer knows how much load the engine is under. This data is the basis for fuel delivery and timing control. The *MAP sensor* is typically located in the air cleaner, fender wall, firewall, intake manifold or under the dash.
> 
> ...


So where is it located on the LUZ engine?


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Tomko said:


> So where is it located on the LUZ engine?


Post 28 From BradHerr

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/201-gen1-diesel-technical-discussion/130010-diesel-emissions-sensor-number-location.html#post2450050


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Cruz15 said:


> Fuel mileage loss, fix = clean the Map Sensor again.
> I might just buy a couple of them and replace it every 12 months while cleaning every six months.
> I have never had to do such a thing to any other vehicle I have owned. I have never owned a boosted car before.
> Cheers.


How much of a difference do you notice before and after?


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Between 1 and 1.5L/100 kms


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Cruz15 said:


> Between 1 and 1.5L/100 kms


That's pretty significant!


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## oldestof11 (Apr 3, 2016)

Did an oil change today. So I popped the top engine cover off. Removed 2 10mm bolts holding the bracket for the wiring, unhooked the wiring from the MAP sensor, and popped it out... Sensor is the one under the blue plug, disconnected
















DISGUSTING. I used what was left of a can of Brake Kleen and reinstalled. 










Now, since it has gotten cold, there's been a bit of a lag and low power in low RPM, low load situations. Kinda like going 35mph in 5th gear. It would take a half a heartbeat longer to downshift than when it gets warm. Since cleaning, there is definitely more low end torque. Cruising through town, no lagging.


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## BradHerr (Sep 29, 2013)

This is definitely an easy maintenance action. It would be hard to believe that the sensor functions at maximum effectiveness while covered in soot. The sensor sits just downstream from where the EGR pipe enters the intake manifold. I haven't monitored mine before and after the EGR delete to see if the sensor stays cleaner longer. I can do some research and check when I cleaned it last. Then tomorrow I will inspect it and report the findings. 


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## BradHerr (Sep 29, 2013)

After about 50,000 miles on the delete tune. It looks like, no EGR = no soot. 


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

BradHerr said:


> View attachment 214930
> View attachment 214938
> 
> 
> ...


Thats awesome Info Brad Thank You. EGR is Black Death to any Diesel engine. GM please remove the EGR!!!


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## BradHerr (Sep 29, 2013)

According to google, this sensor is also the "Charged Air Temperature Sensor". If that is the case, a soot coated temp probe would react slower to temperature changes and cause improper fuel delivery. This could be some of the cause of the low power as well. 


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## BradHerr (Sep 29, 2013)

35,000 miles with EGR pictured above

50,000 miles on delete tune below
















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## BradHerr (Sep 29, 2013)

Not the best picture, but I'm pointing to the where the EGR pipe connects to the intake manifold with my finger. Then my thumb is pointing to the MAP/Temp sensor (marked by light colored paint dot). You can see the close proximity of the two pieces. 


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

BradHerr said:


> [iurl="http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=214954&d=1483279471"]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why are the o rings different colors? Did you replace them at some point? And what is the best cleaner to use on these?


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## BradHerr (Sep 29, 2013)

justin13703 said:


> Why are the o rings different colors? Did you replace them at some point?


Same o rings. I guess the green coating came off of it. 

I do not know of a recommended cleaner for the sensor. I know carburetor cleaner leaves a lubricant behind when it evaporates which isn't ideal. Brake cleaner works really well but can damage electronic components by removing insulation. Brake cleaners also attack certain plastics and rubber compounds. 

I scraped off the big chunks and and wiped the rest off with a paper towel



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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

BradHerr said:


> justin13703 said:
> 
> 
> > Why are the o rings different colors? Did you replace them at some point?
> ...


I wonder if MAF cleaner would work?


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## TheRealHip (Sep 1, 2014)

Could a bad egr valve be the cause of this?


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

I actually just pulled that sensor and cleaned it. When it came out it looked identical to the pictures you posted bradherr. All 4 of those slots were almost plugged solid with soot. My car has just over 35,000 miles. I would definitely recommend that everyone pull and clean that thing at least every 30k. Unless you're deleted lol. The advantages of deleting these cars just keep piling up.


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## BradHerr (Sep 29, 2013)

justin13703 said:


> I actually just pulled that sensor and cleaned it. When it came out it looked identical to the pictures you posted bradherr. All 4 of those slots were almost plugged solid with soot. My car has just over 35,000 miles. I would definitely recommend that everyone pull and clean that thing at least every 30k. Unless you're deleted lol. The advantages of deleting these cars just keep piling up.


Did the MAF cleaner work on it? 



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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

BradHerr said:


> justin13703 said:
> 
> 
> > I actually just pulled that sensor and cleaned it. When it came out it looked identical to the pictures you posted bradherr. All 4 of those slots were almost plugged solid with soot. My car has just over 35,000 miles. I would definitely recommend that everyone pull and clean that thing at least every 30k. Unless you're deleted lol. The advantages of deleting these cars just keep piling up.
> ...


It did seem to help. I used a pick tool to grab all the big stuff and then sprayed it with that MAF cleaner and it seemed to get to all the stuff I couldn't get to. It cleaned it up pretty good. Probably isn't the strongest stuff but it won't damage the plastic or sensor either.

As far as the OP, I wouldn't just replace it every 12 months for no reason. That's a lot of wasted money. Could also cause more issues if you get one that doesn't work correctly. Cleaning it every 6 months isn't a bad idea but I definitely wouldn't be replacing it once a year if it's still working.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I wonder what mine looks like after 194K miles.


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

BradHerr said:


> Did the MAF cleaner work on it?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App





justin13703 said:


> Why are the o rings different colors? Did you replace them at some point? And what is the best cleaner to use on these?


I cleaned mine around 64,000 miles for the first time. Looked pretty much like the dirty pictures above.

My method was to use the blow gun on my air compressor (with the pressure turned down in the 40-60psi range) to blow out the majority of the soot. (I use this as the first step on all of the exhaust sensors as well. Since the soot is dry, much of it just blows away like dust, which prevents any risk of the soot caking up with the cleaner and lodging itself into a small hole in the sensor, such as those on the O2/NOX sensors). After I've blown off the soot with the air gun, I have used MAF cleaner and QD Electric Cleaner on the MAP sensor, both of which seemed to be quite effective. (Exhaust sensors usually get brake cleaner.)


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## BlueTopaz (Aug 25, 2012)

diesel said:


> I wonder what mine looks like after 194K miles.


Take it out at 200k, that is a nice round figure to start from.


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## Chris Tobin (Feb 23, 2016)

diesel said:


> I wonder what mine looks like after 194K miles.


Pullitoutandtakesomepicstoletusallknow....

WHY is this mess still happening?!?!?!!? I shouldn't have to retype my comments or anything like that to get the space bar to work properly!!! VERY FRUSTRATING!!!!:$#angry:
I like the info/content of this forum, but the forum itself is severely lacking compared to others I am on!!!!

Pull it out and take some pics to let us all know...


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Chris Tobin said:


> Pullitoutandtakesomepicstoletusallknow....
> 
> WHY is this mess still happening?!?!?!!? I shouldn't have to retype my comments or anything like that to get the space bar to work properly!!! VERY FRUSTRATING!!!!:$#angry:
> I like the info/content of this forum, but the forum itself is severely lacking compared to others I am on!!!!
> ...


What browser are you using?


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## Chris Tobin (Feb 23, 2016)

diesel said:


> What browser are you using?


Iamusing...

I am using Google Chrome on a PC with Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit. This is the ONLY forum I have had problems like this on... Like I said, I enjoy the content and like to help people out as much as I can, but compared to other forums this one is a pain in the back side!!!

According to Chrome I am up to date as well...

[FONT=&quot]Version 55.0.2883.87 m[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Google Chrome is up to date.

[/FONT]


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## vwgtiglx (Jun 13, 2013)

Chris Tobin said:


> Iamusing...
> 
> I am using Google Chrome on a PC with Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit. This is the ONLY forum I have had problems like this on... Like I said, I enjoy the content and like to help people out as much as I can, but compared to other forums this one is a pain in the back side!!!
> 
> ...


I am having the same issues as you as I have the exact same system as you do.


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## Chris Tobin (Feb 23, 2016)

vwgtiglx said:


> I am having the same issues as you as I have the exact same system as you do.


The problem is only here on CruzeTalk though... I am an editor so I am typing/writing all day and my PC is working fin other than this forum, so it is a forum problem not a problem with my PC!!! I just with they would fix/upgrade it...


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

Chris Tobin said:


> Iamusing...
> 
> I am using Google Chrome on a PC with Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit. This is the ONLY forum I have had problems like this on... Like I said, I enjoy the content and like to help people out as much as I can, but compared to other forums this one is a pain in the back side!!!
> 
> ...


Might be a pain but if they cant fix it, maybe try another browser for this forum? Just an idea. I use a laptop and an Ipad, and I haven't had any issues, if I use my IPhone it can get a little weird sometimes.


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

The mobile forum software wasn't too bad until they updated it a few weeks ago, now it's garbage. The way pages are not really pages anymore is terrible and the page selection thing barely works


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I will report this all to AG. Hopefully they can do something about it.


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## Chris Tobin (Feb 23, 2016)

diesel said:


> I will report this all to AG. Hopefully they can do something about it.


Isurehope...

I sure hope so... but there is another thread on the problem already that is a month or so old and it still hasn't been fixed, so I won't hold my breath!

Thanks for the effort though!


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

Chris Tobin said:


> Pullitoutandtakesomepicstoletusallknow....
> 
> WHY is this mess still happening?!?!?!!? I shouldn't have to retype my comments or anything like that to get the space bar to work properly!!! VERY FRUSTRATING!!!!:$#angry:
> I like the info/content of this forum, but the forum itself is severely lacking compared to others I am on!!!!
> ...


Old problem, fairly easy fix. Either make sure you're not on the very last character of the text box, or hit A/A button.

See thread: http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/5-cruzetalk-site-issues/180698-cant-space.html

Still, it would be nice to get it stamped out for good.


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

TheRealHip said:


> Could a bad egr valve be the cause of this?


It's coming though the EGR valve, but I'm not sure as it's the cause of it - unless maybe it was cracked open when it shouldn't be. I'd be more concerned if the engine was running extra sootie.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

ChevyGuy said:


> Old problem, fairly easy fix. Either make sure you're not on the very last character of the text box,* or hit A/A button*.
> 
> See thread: http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/5-cruzetalk-site-issues/180698-cant-space.html
> 
> Still, it would be nice to get it stamped out for good.


Pretty much the only fix for now.


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## Administrator (Feb 26, 2010)

Chris Tobin said:


> Pullitoutandtakesomepicstoletusallknow....
> 
> WHY is this mess still happening?!?!?!!? I shouldn't have to retype my comments or anything like that to get the space bar to work properly!!! VERY FRUSTRATING!!!!:$#angry:
> I like the info/content of this forum, but the forum itself is severely lacking compared to others I am on!!!!
> ...


this is a known issue on vbulletin 4 forums, unfortunately the developers of this platform (vbulletin) have not found a fix for this. 
You can set your text editor to standard mode in your user cp to override this issue. 

Lee


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## Chris Tobin (Feb 23, 2016)

ChevyGuy said:


> Old problem, fairly easy fix. Either make sure you're not on the very last character of the text box, or hit A/A button.
> 
> See thread: http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/5-cruzetalk-site-issues/180698-cant-space.html
> 
> Still, it would be nice to get it stamped out for good.


That seems to work, but that is counter intuitive to typing on ANY other forum or word processing and an extra step that you have to think about in order to reply to a quote here... Still annoying and frustrating...


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

ChevyGuy said:


> It's coming though the EGR valve, but I'm not sure as it's the cause of it - unless maybe it was cracked open when it shouldn't be. I'd be more concerned if the engine was running extra sootie.


EGR causes almost all the soot in our engines, look at the deleted clean MAP sensor as the example.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Just pulled mine and cleaned it. 48K miles. It was pretty dirty. Used compressed air and throttle body cleaner. Also blew out the manifold to the extent possible with air. There was clearly some soot build up. Didn't see any specific difference in performance, yet. Will look to see if there is any MPG improvement.

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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

MRO1791 said:


> Just pulled mine and cleaned it. 48K miles. It was pretty dirty. Used compressed air and throttle body cleaner. Also blew out the manifold to the extent possible with air. There was clearly some soot build up. Didn't see any specific difference in performance, yet. Will look to see if there is any MPG improvement.


Based on several of the posts this blog, I pulled mine last weekend @ 51K miles and found it coked up worse then those pics posted here. Can't say that the fuel mileage was any different then when the car was new and haven't noticed any improvement since cleaning. But it sure looked bad suggesting it should be clean as a regular maintenance procedure which information might imply around 50K miles.

I change filter and oil every 5K miles using Pennzoil Euro L 5W-30, keep the air filter clean, use lots of diesel additive but here in Northern IL. I'm stuck with using fuel label as "<B20". So its hard to say the cause of the issue other then poor design / location of the MAP sensor.:sad:

Contrasting on my F350 6.0L PS the MAP sensor is mounted on the fire wall with a hose running back to the intake manifold. In 170K miles had to replace a defective sensor once but it was clean looking in comparison and never clean in the miles stated. This approach was probably too expensive for the Cruze application?:2cents:


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

theonlypheonix said:


> Based on several of the posts this blog, I pulled mine last weekend @ 51K miles and found it coked up worse then those pics posted here. Can't say that the fuel mileage was any different then when the car was new and haven't noticed any improvement since cleaning. But it sure looked bad suggesting it should be clean as a regular maintenance procedure which information might imply around 50K miles.
> 
> I change filter and oil every 5K miles using Pennzoil Euro L 5W-30, keep the air filter clean, use lots of diesel additive but here in Northern IL. I'm stuck with using fuel label as "<B20". So its hard to say the cause of the issue other then poor design / location of the MAP sensor.:sad:
> 
> Contrasting on my F350 6.0L PS the MAP sensor is mounted on the fire wall with a hose running back to the intake manifold. In 170K miles had to replace a defective sensor once but it was clean looking in comparison and never clean in the miles stated. This approach was probably too expensive for the Cruze application?:2cents:


The sensor on the CTD also is a Temp sensor... Thus firewall wouldn't work. 

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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I've never even looked at mine in nearly 200K miles.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

diesel said:


> I've never even looked at mine in nearly 200K miles.


You might want to take a look at yours when you have a few free minutes to pull it, not that hard at all.

The only difference since cleaning I might perceive is that the transmission shifting. Seat of the pants feel shifting seems a little crisper and more on target where as before cleaning it began to "feel" that more throttle was required to force a downshift. I believe that the MAP readings are part of the algorithm for determine shift points??


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## oldestof11 (Apr 3, 2016)

theonlypheonix said:


> Based on several of the posts this blog, I pulled mine last weekend @ 51K miles and found it coked up worse then those pics posted here. Can't say that the fuel mileage was any different then when the car was new and haven't noticed any improvement since cleaning. But it sure looked bad suggesting it should be clean as a regular maintenance procedure which information might imply around 50K miles.
> 
> I change filter and oil every 5K miles using Pennzoil Euro L 5W-30, keep the air filter clean, use lots of diesel additive but here in Northern IL. I'm stuck with using fuel label as "<B20". So its hard to say the cause of the issue other then poor design / location of the MAP sensor.:sad:
> 
> Contrasting on my F350 6.0L PS the MAP sensor is mounted on the fire wall with a hose running back to the intake manifold. In 170K miles had to replace a defective sensor once but it was clean looking in comparison and never clean in the miles stated. This approach was probably too expensive for the Cruze application?:2cents:


I'm right there with you. 

Where in N IL are you? I'm in Dixon. 

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## Aaron/VA (Oct 23, 2016)

Yummy. 










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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

oldestof11 said:


> I'm right there with you.
> 
> Where in N IL are you? I'm in Dixon.
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_Z01BDC using Tapatalk


Just east of U, 88/39


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Aaron/VA said:


> Yummy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is not too bad.. mine was worse at 46k, but cleaned up easy.

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## oldestof11 (Apr 3, 2016)

theonlypheonix said:


> Just east of U, 88/39


Didn't realize someone was so close. 

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## DslGate (Jun 29, 2016)

Subjectively, cleaning the MAP may make a difference. Objectively, we can look at this using our SC II. Look at the MAP numbers before cleaning it and when cold, warm and hot and document those. Let car cool overnight, clean MAP per above and do the same readings with SC II and see how they compare. If the cleaning works, there is an objective verification of the results. 

Ive done this with my SC C55 with the MAF and there is a difference when clean versus dirty. We've done this on dyno. The MAF in the C55 is a round plastic unit with a single vertical wire that acts as the measuring unit. This wire gets dirty. A quick clean of the wire with brake cleaner or MAF cleaner and wipe down with shop towel and you can see and feel the differences.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

DslGate said:


> Subjectively, cleaning the MAP may make a difference. Objectively, we can look at this using our SC II. Look at the MAP numbers before cleaning it and when cold, warm and hot and document those. Let car cool overnight, clean MAP per above and do the same readings with SC II and see how they compare. If the cleaning works, there is an objective verification of the results.
> 
> Ive done this with my SC C55 with the MAF and there is a difference when clean versus dirty. We've done this on dyno. The MAF in the C55 is a round plastic unit with a single vertical wire that acts as the measuring unit. This wire gets dirty. A quick clean of the wire with brake cleaner or MAF cleaner and wipe down with shop towel and you can see and feel the differences.


I only do mileage checks after 15 - 20 mins of driving. 
I checked the mileage after 15 - 20 mins of driving, took out the map sensor cleaned it up and drove for 15 - 20 mins then checked the mileage again. Right after the mileage had changed at the same speed by 1.5 lphk from 5.0 to 3.5 which is a massive difference.

Thats going from 47 mpg to 67 mpg thats HUGE!! 
That mileage change only lasted about a month which I think is how long it takes my sensor to start getting sooted up. It must be running rich or eventually changes to running rich.


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

I took mine out today and gave it a clean with canned air and MAP cleaner. Mine was not as sooty as the others I've seen on this site, but maybe it's because the car has 27,000 miles on it. I couldn't really notice any difference in drivability, and I agree that without data (such as from the Scangauge), any before-and-after comparison is going to be pretty speculative. Nonetheless, it's a pretty easy thing to check and clean from time to time.

As for drivers like Diesel, who've gone forever without cleaning it...I imagine that under normal operating conditions, the sensors accumulate only so much soot and that the operating parameters of the sensors are designed to accommodate that. Just like EGR systems; they may look all yucky and gross, but that's just part of the design, and that's how they're designed to work.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

beaurrr said:


> Just like EGR systems; they may look all yucky and gross, but that's just part of the design, and that's how they're designed to work.


Off topic a little but the 2.0L diesel maybe a little new to arrive at this conclusion, but I can said that if the EGR is all gunky on a 6.0L PS the turbo really acts wired and there is considerable power loss.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

beaurrr said:


> Just like EGR systems; they may look all yucky and gross, but that's just part of the design, and that's how they're designed to work.


Off topic a little but the 2.0L diesel maybe a little new to arrive at this conclusion, but I can say that if the EGR is all gunky on a 6.0L PS the turbo really acts wired (surges) and there is considerable power loss.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

beaurrr said:


> I took mine out today and gave it a clean with canned air and MAP cleaner. Mine was not as sooty as the others I've seen on this site, but maybe it's because the car has 27,000 miles on it. I couldn't really notice any difference in drivability, and I agree that without data (such as from the Scangauge), any before-and-after comparison is going to be pretty speculative. Nonetheless, it's a pretty easy thing to check and clean from time to time.
> 
> As for drivers like Diesel, who've gone forever without cleaning it...I imagine that under normal operating conditions, the sensors accumulate only so much soot and that the operating parameters of the sensors are designed to accommodate that. Just like EGR systems; they may look all yucky and gross, but that's just part of the design, and that's how they're designed to work.


One of the things I set out to do on this car from the beginning was to do as little as possible on things like this, so that I could observe how long it takes things to get gummed up. I was fully expecting issues at 60-80K miles with sensors gunking up, based on data from other diesels like BMWs and VWs. So far, I'm pushing 202K miles and have not had any issues as a result of intake/sensor gunking up. 

To comment on the fuel economy, I have noticed that it's not quite as good as it was when new, but not far off overall.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

diesel said:


> One of the things I set out to do on this car from the beginning was to do as little as possible , so that I could observe how long it takes things to get gummed up.


:blush::not_worthy::signs015:

No offense, but is this also like not changing the oil to see how far you can go before things get gummed up?? Personally I follow a PM PLAN, especially after owning several different diesels over extended miles and years. There is nothing like cranking it up and just going rather then rrra...rrra...rrra, O shXt I should have...??


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> :blush::not_worthy::signs015:
> 
> No offense, but is this also like not changing the oil to see how far you can go before things get gummed up?? Personally I follow a PM PLAN, especially after owning several different diesels over extended miles and years. There is nothing like cranking it up and just going rather then rrra...rrra...rrra, O shXt I should have...??


Not at all. I change oil, fluids, filters, etc per a strategy appropriate for my driving. I am talking specifically about not doing things like removing sensors to clean them, removing the intake to burn out the carbon, removing and blasting the cylinder head valves with walnut shells, etc. I don't think any of that remotely falls into PM. And so far, for 202K miles, my strategy has worked just fine.


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

*Well, Now I'm Screwed*



diesel said:


> Not at all. I change oil, fluids, filters, etc per a strategy appropriate for my driving. I am talking specifically about not doing things like removing sensors to clean them, removing the intake to burn out the carbon, removing and blasting the cylinder head valves with walnut shells, etc. I don't think any of that remotely falls into PM. And so far, for 202K miles, my strategy has worked just fine.


I should have listened to Diesel. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

67K on the odometer, not original owner...read this thread and decided to check the MAP sensor today. Now my perfectly fine CTD is disabled because the bottom 1/2 o-ring end of the sensor is busted off in the bore. 















Scratching my head as to how best to remove the broken end. Will keep u posted...ugh!


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## Aranarth (Oct 18, 2016)

Rivergoer said:


> I should have listened to Diesel. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
> 
> 
> Scratching my head as to how best to remove the broken end. Will keep u posted...ugh!


I bet a dental pick or a large needle bent to a short fish hook will work quite well...


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

Rivergoer said:


> I should have listened to Diesel. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
> 
> 67K on the odometer, not original owner...read this thread and decided to check the MAP sensor today. Now my perfectly fine CTD is disabled because the bottom 1/2 o-ring end of the sensor is busted off in the bore.
> 
> ...


I agree; most of this 'cleaning' business is overrated. Just because a sensor appear dirty doesn't mean it's not working as intended.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

beaurrr said:


> I agree; most of this 'cleaning' business is overrated. Just because a sensor appear dirty doesn't mean it's not working as intended.


I believe lack of maintenance cleaning is the cause of this problem, totally carbon fouled. I removed and cleaned mine at 50K miles, no problems what so ever. Note the o-ring can harden and be the source of the problem if its still in the bore. I had a similar issue on my 6.0L diesel with the ERG valve removal and cleaning. Had to remove the retaining bolts, spray cleaner into the seam, and very gingerly rock and twist until it started to loosen, then repeat a little more cleaner until it was moving so it could be removed. Always use care when things are seized up especially plastic parts and cleaners which are approved for rubber seals, plastics and sensors! This type of fouling can be anticipated anywhere in a diesel exhaust system.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Aranarth said:


> I bet a dental pick or a large needle bent to a short fish hook will work quite well...


agree with using a angled pick and maybe a little approved cleaner to loosen up ... also have a shop vac spout right near the port to suck up the loosened pieces. Afterwards you can open the vac to make sure you have all the pieces of the sensor. Viewing the photo in post #52 you can see what is still stuck inside the port. As previous suggested you might be able to hook and pull out if a hardened o-ring isn't the cause of it being stuck.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Rivergoer said:


> I should have listened to Diesel. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
> 
> 67K on the odometer, not original owner...read this thread and decided to check the MAP sensor today. Now my perfectly fine CTD is disabled because the bottom 1/2 o-ring end of the sensor is busted off in the bore.
> 
> ...


Ouch. If I was closer I would help out. Sorry that happened to you.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

beaurrr said:


> I agree; most of this 'cleaning' business is overrated. Just because a sensor appear dirty doesn't mean it's not working as intended.


My car gets much better fuel mileage and drives much better when its clean. Its definitely not overrated on my car.
People that drive like they have an Indy car (Heavy Foot) will most likely not notice much difference with anything they do to improve mileage.


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

Before the replies I had all the same thoughts. The 45 degree angled pick tool worked. O-ring came out 1st then the broken plastic body reluctantly exited with a lot of coaxing and patience. Unfortunately it fell off the tool and down the back side of the motor, lost in no man's land. 

Luckily Chevy had one (ONLY one) in stock, $47. Might want to call ahead and ensure your local dealer has one in stock in case it breaks like mine did. 

Topped with Diesel and 65 miles into hopefully another 1,000 mile tank (wink). All good no CEL. 

Thanks again everyone!


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Im glad you got it out and were able to get one right away.
Cheers.


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## smkn600ctd (Dec 16, 2013)

Went to clean mine today and it broke off in the manifold. I was able to get the o-ring out, but the plastic body fell into the intake. 

I took a shop vac to the throttle body and to the MAP port to try and suck it out, but no luck. 

Hopefully the valves smash it to pieces and then the fire burns it up and sends it out the exhaust. 

Got a new one Delco part coming from Amazon for $26.


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

smkn600ctd said:


> I was able to get the o-ring out, but the plastic body fell into the intake... Hopefully the valves smash it to pieces and then the fire burns it up and sends it out the exhaust.
> 
> Got a new one Delco part coming from Amazon for $26.


Dang, that's two of us with the same issue. I'm sure like you I thought I was being as gentle as possible when mine broke off. That MAP sensor must get brittle from the heat and soot build-up over the years. 

The o-ring came out first for me too. The remaining plastic body fell down into the bore but I was able to "stab" it with a straight prong tool. I pinned it to the bottom of the manifold and got the tool to penetrate the plastic enough to hold it as I guided it back up through the bore.

As mentioned previously, I can't emphasize enough how important it is to make sure your dealer has the part in stock before you work on the MAP sensor or have one on hand from Amazon or eBay before starting work. AC/Delco Part from GM is #55568175.

smkn600ctd, I hope you're right about chewin' up and spittin' out that broken piece. Crossing fingers. :hope:


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

I kinda think cleaning this sensor is way more potential risk and trouble vs the benefit. I will leave my alone. I change the oil and the filters, if it needs something else I will take to a dealer. The idea of a plastic anything sitting inside a cylinder bore is a [email protected] nightmare on my mind.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

IndyDiesel said:


> I kinda think cleaning this sensor is way more potential risk and trouble vs the benefit. I will leave my alone. I change the oil and the filters, if it needs something else I will take to a dealer. The idea of a plastic anything sitting inside a cylinder bore is a [email protected] nightmare on my mind.


I would have to agree after two ended catastrophically. Just leave it for the dealer Peoples. If it needs cleaning or replacement to the dealer it should go.


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

Cruz15 said:


> I would have to agree after two ended catastrophically. Just leave it for the dealer Peoples. If it needs cleaning or replacement to the dealer it should go.


I haven't really researched this topic in detail, but I can safely say if I had plastic sitting on a piston, I would probably remove the intake manifold and remove the plastic prior to starting it again. Then would inspect the intake and possibly clean that while off the car. I just don't want to open that can of worms unless necessary. I think I will do some more wide open throttle more often.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Well after a reoccurring P0133 that kept resetting I found this thread. Pulled the O2 and MAP sensors of which both were heavily sooted up. With 56k miles I'd rather work on it than a dealer if possible. 

Cleaned both with MAF sensor cleaner and compressed air. Been a few days and no SES light. 

The MAP is a little sensitive getting out and I can see how it will break the tip off. You need to pry it up from two sides which can be tricky. If you just pry from the mounting flange it bends the sensor which can break it.

While I don't have any hard data to back up this maintenance I'd recommend it. Don't feel like getting any PCM reflash at this point.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Diesel Dan said:


> Well after a reoccurring P0133 that kept resetting I found this thread. Pulled the O2 and MAP sensors of which both were heavily sooted up. With 56k miles I'd rather work on it than a dealer if possible.
> 
> Cleaned both with MAF sensor cleaner and compressed air. Been a few days and no SES light.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I just had the latest recall flash on one of my cars.. so far no issues.. waiting to verify all is well before I do the other. I actually had the bad recall that was suspended done on both, but I was fortunate, no problems with either car. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

Diesel Dan said:


> Well after a reoccurring P0133 that kept resetting I found this thread. Pulled the O2 and MAP sensors of which both were heavily sooted up. With 56k miles I'd rather work on it than a dealer if possible.
> 
> Cleaned both with MAF sensor cleaner and compressed air. Been a few days and no SES light.
> 
> ...


What size is the O2 sensor? Have to pick up a crows foot today. Is there a spec for the torque on it?
Thank you.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Cruz15 said:


> What size is the O2 sensor? Have to pick up a crows foot today. Is there a spec for the torque on it?
> Thank you.


Sorry for the delay, no internet at the house.

I do believe it is 7/8 or equivalent metric. Had to use crows foot since my standard O2 socket was not deep enough. Just snugged it down, did not use a torque spec.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Diesel Dan said:


> Sorry for the delay, no internet at the house.
> 
> I do believe it is 7/8 or equivalent metric. Had to use crows foot since my standard O2 socket was not deep enough. Just snugged it down, did not use a torque spec.


The rear O2 is spec'd at 31 ft/lb according to AllData.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Update:
It has been 5 weeks of mostly country driving with a little highway and glad to say no SES light!

Finally sent my SG2 in for updated firmware and will be able to play with it now. 
Currently at 15 SGM and 120 total regens.

Still think I'll pull and clean the O2 sensor during oil changes, at a minimum.


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## BDCCruze (Jul 12, 2017)

My first reaction to this thread was "crap, another thing to fix", but after thinking about it more I'm over that. Even with the sensor tip sooted up, it should not impact the abilty to detect vacuum change. There is no flow involved, otherwise, I would agree it should be cleaned. But as some here have gone nearly 200k miles without replacing or cleaning it, I think the soot is probably just fine (and probably expected).


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## Deeezel (Dec 27, 2016)

I pulled my MAP sensor last night and cleaned. Needless to say, it was pretty coated with carbon. I personally think it's a crap shoot whether it will make a difference or not. Its just like the people that keep getting repetitive cels and the people that never have one.......it's hit or miss (knock on wood I haven't had one yet). I don't think it can hurt to clean it, that's for sure.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Deeezel said:


> I pulled my MAP sensor last night and cleaned. Needless to say, it was pretty coated with carbon. I personally think it's a crap shoot whether it will make a difference or not. Its just like the people that keep getting repetitive cels and the people that never have one.......it's hit or miss (knock on wood I haven't had one yet). I don't think it can hurt to clean it, that's for sure.


Try pulling the O2 sensor and cleaning it, made a very big difference on one of mine. 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## obnxous (Jan 17, 2018)

Cleaned the MAP and an O2 or EGT sensor today. With pix. 

Before and After soaking and cleaning with a soft old tooth brush in gasoline. Blew it off to get rid of the large pieces. Then soaked for a tic, brushed, then blew off again to dry before reinstall. Also attached a pic of the paint can lid I used to clean the MAP and the gunk it left behind.
Did the same with what I thought is the upstream O2 sensor. But didn't get before pix of the O2 sensor. Couldn't figure out how to unplug it so I just cleaned it in the car.
Will see if the mpgs go up next week.


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## obnxous (Jan 17, 2018)

well dang. Now I keep getting random errors popping up. Probably something to do with the O2/EGT sensor I cleaned. I don't think they are related to the MAP.

P14CC is one of the codes I remember. I think another was P116b... seems really random. I remember one had to deal with a NOx sensor so maybe that's what I cleaned instead of the O2! lol... Never on the first start/drive, seems always on the second. Hopefully it settles down.


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## obnxous (Jan 17, 2018)

Drove the CTD yesterday. No codes. DEF down to 35%. time to refill. found a truckstop sells bulk for $2.99/gal. took 3.927 Gallons to top off. 11k miles for only $11, not too bad for DEF.


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## BDCCruze (Jul 12, 2017)

When you clean those types of components you need to use something like MAF cleaner which is designed to dry without leaving residue.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

cleaned mine first time today with maf cleaner, was black, but not built up or anything like the egr


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## Litlebos (May 3, 2014)

boraz said:


> cleaned mine first time today with maf cleaner, was black, but not built up or anything like the egr


Did you notice any difference in performance/milage.
While trying to decide if it's worth the risk to pull and clean this for the first time at 145k miles, as the original owner. I question is it simply a vacuum/pressure detector why would it extend into the exhaust flow to get sooty.


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## BDCCruze (Jul 12, 2017)

Litlebos said:


> Did you notice any difference in performance/milage.
> While trying to decide if it's worth the risk to pull and clean this for the first time at 145k miles, as the original owner. I question is it simply a vacuum/pressure detector why would it extend into the exhaust flow to get sooty.


I'm still debating on if I want to do mine at all. I've thought about doing it at the same time as the EGR. But unless I'm misunderstanding the sensor, I can't see why being soot covered would hinder it's ability to sense a vacuum. It's not like a MAF where the function is based on airflow.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Litlebos said:


> Did you notice any difference in performance/milage.
> While trying to decide if it's worth the risk to pull and clean this for the first time at 145k miles, as the original owner. I question is it simply a vacuum/pressure detector why would it extend into the exhaust flow to get sooty.


dont notice a difference.


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## Litlebos (May 3, 2014)

I have cleaned mine now and haven't noticed a difference, but I also rotated my tires. I was careful to give it several very gentle twists before attempting to pull it out. I didnt get it out too far before deciding to add a bit of lubricant for the o-ring, I chose pb blaster as it was close and I was going to be cleaning it off anyway. I had more concerns trying to get it back in seems the hole had some "crusty stuff" nothing a rag covered screwdriver could wipe loose, then vacuum out.


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## Mohammad Abdulkhalik (Dec 19, 2019)

Cruz15 said:


> Fuel mileage loss, fix = clean the Map Sensor again.
> I might just buy a couple of them and replace it every 12 months while cleaning every six months.
> I have never had to do such a thing to any other vehicle I have owned. I have never owned a boosted car before.
> Cheers.


Hi
I am having this issue right now were I cant get fuel range or how many KM left in the tank. Is this sensor that you mentioned causing this problem??
Thanks


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## BDCCruze (Jul 12, 2017)

Did mine today. Didn't notice any MPG difference after it was done. Still waiting to see if it shifts easier since I didn't get a good feeling for it yet.

I followed the recommendation to twist it back and forth before pulling out, and put a little bit of silicone paste on the o-ring before reinstalling.

I did notice the soot wasn't coming off with electrical contact or MAF cleaner, so hit it with some throttle body cleaner and the soot came off. Then hit it with the MAF cleaner again to make sure there was no residue.


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## Ted (not Cruze) (Apr 27, 2021)

Bought a used diesel 2014 with 93k miles on it not a month ago, after the old Nissan was totalled. I thought it was a good price  Have you seen the used car prices lately? Of course the dealer always wins, the car had a bunch of problems starting days later, and I have been spending hours reading since then. Buying as is means buying as is. The legal options are slim to none. Buy a good scanner prior to buying a used car. The flipside is that you can't usually get a good price for a car without problems.
I won the DEF fight against reduced range by replacing the DEF pump. Not so bad, $200 and an easy job.
I won against the catalytic converter code by replacing the DPS sensor. While pulling it out one leg broke off, luckily after it was out.
No more codes, but it's also not getting ready after driving for 100+ miles. There are hints about the fuel system problems in the detailed diagnostics, which apparently makes the computer to not even initialize some of the emissions check streams. It doesn't get to PMS diagnostics and does not turn it on, for example.
So, MAP comes in. This thread gave a good hint it can be an issue. I went in and pulled it. Ended up with its body and a thin wire sticking out, the rest of it is stuck in the hole, glued with gunk very well. Ordered a new one, put this one back in. No codes are showing. So, basically, this fella may be sort of optional at times. It seems if the voltage is within range, it won't throw a code. The fuel mix is not optimal, but it may be good enough. Gotta wonder how many other parts are like that - no codes, no warnings, just a suboptimal performance...
Well, I will see if replacing it fixes anything. The next thing is oil pressure solenoid which is stuck on high - another part which one really needs to dig into diagnostics to notice.


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## 15cruzediesel (Sep 30, 2019)

This is an excellent thread with lots of advice and difference of opinions and I have decided to go the "don't fix what is not broken" on my 52k mile diesel.

I think I will do the same with the egr.......


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

15cruzediesel said:


> This is an excellent thread with lots of advice and difference of opinions and I have decided to go the "don't fix what is not broken" on my 52k mile diesel.
> 
> I think I will do the same with the egr.......


The EGR I may suggest cleaning...if the MAP gets dirty, the car just won't run ideally...if the EGR sticks closed, it won't start at all.


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## BDCCruze (Jul 12, 2017)

15cruzediesel said:


> This is an excellent thread with lots of advice and difference of opinions and I have decided to go the "don't fix what is not broken" on my 52k mile diesel.
> 
> I think I will do the same with the egr.......


I was following this advice for the MAP sensor ... until I didn't. And I realized I was right, I shouldn't have touched it. Now to see if I can hold out on the EGR.


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