# Any of you California guys running Diesel HPR from Propel?



## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

It's a biomass based synthetic diesel with a Cetane rating of 80 or so. It reduced the visible smoke in my old Mercedes from fairly visible under WOT to totally absent, even at night looking back into the headlights of vehicles following me. 

It's widely available in the Golden State and usually the same cost or cheaper than #2. The stuff is totally clear, doesn't stink like diesel and doesn't foam at all while filling. 

*I bet a steady diet of HPR would make the DPF much happier with very few (if any) regens needed. *


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

How's mpg on it? Never heard of this before


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

http://dieselhpr.com/learn-more


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

If it were available here, I would consider trying it, but I'd need to research long term usage effects on injectors, engine wear, DPF and other exhaust components etc. On paper it sound good though.


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

MPG is unchanged. It is a direct replacement for #2, unlike bio-diesel. When I go fill up, it's mostly TDI guys buying it next to me, and they generally are the enthusiast types that have made informed decisions to use HPR vs. #2. It's got a lubricity additive in it to bring it into the pre-ULSD range.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Never heard of it, cool.


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

For me it's only about 2000 miles away or so....maybe a road trip is in order. :go:


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

It's only 40 gallons of diesel away!


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

This fuel sounds very interesting. 98% renewable from what I read and less pollution. I downloaded an app that has their stations in Cali. I see that is 2.79 a gallon. What is regular diesel fuel there? We have a little gas diesel war on prices locally and I have been purchasing diesel for 2.09 a gallon. Right now it's cheaper than 87 octane gas. Gas prices here go up and down, diesel is more stable in price.


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

IndyDiesel said:


> This fuel sounds very interesting. 98% renewable from what I read and less pollution. I downloaded an app that has their stations in Cali.


There's a very lengthy discussion on the PeachParts diesel forum if you are want an interesting read:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/alternative-fuels/365693-biomass-based-diesel-vs-biodiesel.html

I'm a frequent contributor to that discussion, and a lot of guys with a lot of knowledge chime in. If I get a CTD, you can be assured this is what it will burn from day 1.



IndyDiesel said:


> I see that is 2.79 a gallon. What is regular diesel fuel there?


Costco has it for $2.599 per gallon, but that place is a madhouse and not worth it. You can get B20 for around $2.399 but it's at a truck stop with the fast fillers with the large nozzle. 

So without going into the ghetto, It's generally in the $2.599 - 2.899 range. RUG is about the same. We get taxed to death out on the Left coast, and our government is still broke and despite the high gas taxes, the roads are still crumbling. But I also have fresh, local produce year round (much of it from my own yard). Tradeoffs, I guess!


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

renaissanceman said:


> There's a very lengthy discussion on the PeachParts diesel forum if you are want an interesting read:
> Biomass based diesel vs biodiesel - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum
> 
> I'm a frequent contributor to that discussion, and a lot of guys with a lot of knowledge chime in. If I get a CTD, you can be assured this is what it will burn from day 1.
> ...


Sounds like there's a lot of potential with this fuel. If things go a certain way over time, I can see diesels having a significant market penetration in the US and a reputation for being extremely clean and renewable.


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

renaissanceman said:


> There's a very lengthy discussion on the PeachParts diesel forum if you are want an interesting read:
> Biomass based diesel vs biodiesel - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum
> 
> I'm a frequent contributor to that discussion, and a lot of guys with a lot of knowledge chime in. If I get a CTD, you can be assured this is what it will burn from day 1.
> ...


Since you have been following this new fuel source, in your opinion, is this a fuel also used by heavy trucks, semis, etc. is there potential to share this with the rest of the country? Any drawbacks?


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

IndyDiesel said:


> Since you have been following this new fuel source, in your opinion, is this a fuel also used by heavy trucks, semis, etc. is there potential to share this with the rest of the country? Any drawbacks?


All of the stations I have been to have been in areas not easily accessible to semi trucks, but I have seen pickups filling up with it (we run it in our Duramax). I think the State gives the company subsidies since it falls into the renewable fuel category. I'm not sure what the economics of producing the fuel are without handouts from the taxpayer. 

The fuel we get here on the left coast is refined in Singapore by the Finnish company NESTE. The fuel is known as NEXBTL, and is a synthetic fuel that is chemically the same as "perfect" #2 diesel, without impurities. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEXBTL


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

Thanks for sharing this info on the forum. I find it very interesting. I am not a tree hugger or anything, but if we can make fuel from something other than fossil fuels and it works great and is more environmentally friendly I am all for it. I think I recall President Bush talking about the promise of this fuel many years ago. I just would like to see it more readily available and let folks try it out. Hopefully some other left coast folks will chime in. Thanks again!


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

yeah, my pleasure. When I started considering purchasing a new CTD, and reading about the DPF issues I got to thinking. Then I connected the dots in my head that my Mercedes smokes on #2 and not at all on HPR. If there is a huge reduction in visible smoke on an engine with no filter, I would think that a modern diesel with DPF would benefit even more drastically from reduced particulate emissions. 

Even if the fuel mileage under normal conditions was the same, having very infrequent regens (or none whatsoever -- I don't know if that is possible?) would mean less fuel burned. 

Another bit of anecdotal evidence -- When I switched to HPR in my 300D, I noticed a lack of smoke, but my fuel economy was unchanged. I talked to a guy with a late model VW Touareg and he was raving about how he keeps detailed records and how got a 3mpg bump from HPR. I never thought much about it until this morning...that it was probably due to no fuel wasting regen of the DPF.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Very interesting. I wonder if the CTD would max out the regen interval before the grams of soot reached 22. 

I wonder how much this stuff is like the Audi stuff:

Audi Announces Diesel Fuel Derived from Water and CO2 â€“Â*News â€“Â*Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

But then again, with that being part of VW, there is no doubt some sort of "cheating" in there somewhere LOL


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

What's the max regen interval?


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

I understand your logic, but not sure it would come true in real life. I think there may be a max miles then regen even if not 22 grams. I don't think you would see a major difference in economy if normal regen is 750 and under new fuel is 1000. I think your driving and speed and traffic would have a larger influence than longer regen cycles. I have another 500 plus miles next week for work, it will almost be all highway, for me, outside temp and wind and traffic could effect economy. Today there is 30 mph wind plus, I rarely drive with the wind at my back.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

I made a single post on this last year I thought it was cool wasn't from Propel though.


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

IndyDiesel said:


> I understand your logic, but not sure it would come true in real life. I think there may be a max miles then regen even if not 22 grams. I don't think you would see a major difference in economy if normal regen is 750 and under new fuel is 1000. I think your driving and speed and traffic would have a larger influence than longer regen cycles. I have another 500 plus miles next week for work, it will almost be all highway, for me, outside temp and wind and traffic could effect economy. Today there is 30 mph wind plus, I rarely drive with the wind at my back.


Using the 750 and 1000 mile numbers, that's a 25% reduction in the number of regens over the course of the vehicle's life. That's pretty significant!


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

renaissanceman said:


> Using the 750 and 1000 mile numbers, that's a 25% reduction in the number of regens over the course of the vehicle's life. That's pretty significant!


I am just guessing there will be a difference in regens, there may not be, would have to test it and even that is tough, conditions change from one regen to the next.


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

Of course. I bet the regen parameters are stored somewhere in the ECU waiting to be accessed by someone with the proper equipment and knowledge.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

renaissanceman said:


> What's the max regen interval?


I believe it's 1250 miles. I've never hit it though. I've gone over 1000 miles, almost 1100 once or twice.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

I would like to know where to buy fuel like this in Ontario, Canada. I contacted a few company s they didn't bother to email back.


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

Cruz15 said:


> I would like to know where to buy fuel like this in Ontario, Canada. I contacted a few company s they didn't bother to email back.


Most likely this fuel will stay in a limited marketplace due to supply limitations and the need for subsidies to make it economically viable. It's nice for us west coaster guys though (but I think I'm the only one in CA on this forum...Haha)


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

Cruz15 said:


> I would like to know where to buy fuel like this in Ontario, Canada. I contacted a few company s they didn't bother to email back.


I found it for you in Ontario CA:blink:

Ontario, East Holt Blvd | Propel Diesel HPR


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

LoL. Thats a long drive!!!


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## DslGate (Jun 29, 2016)

We're fluctuating between $1.99 in Wisco or about 2.09-2.19 for No IL for diesel, so it would be a hard sell for me to bite at 2.59 for synthetic bio based diesel. Wisco also has the Premium Diesel fuel with 0 bio for about 2.00-2.19 a gallon too. Kwik-Trip!


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

DslGate said:


> We're fluctuating between $1.99 in Wisco or about 2.09-2.19 for No IL for diesel, so it would be a hard sell for me to bite at 2.59 for synthetic bio based diesel. Wisco also has the Premium Diesel fuel with 0 bio for about 2.00-2.19 a gallon too. Kwik-Trip!


All fuel is ~ $0.50-$0.80 more out in CA, so it's no net change for those of us out here. But it's also a pleasant 77 degrees at the moment -- all things in life are tradeoffs.


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## dougc905 (May 24, 2015)

Cruz15 said:


> I would like to know where to buy fuel like this in Ontario, Canada. I contacted a few company s they didn't bother to email back.


I've looked over the years as well. Don't hold your breath. The current government doesn't see any internal combustion engine as being part of their green energy plan. Hence, it doesn't make sense for suppliers to be here - no subsidies.

Way back, there was a station in Toronto selling biodiesel but it is now gone.


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## Eddy Cruze (Jan 10, 2014)

renaissanceman said:


> All fuel is ~ $0.50-$0.80 more out in CA, so it's no net change for those of us out here. But it's also a pleasant 77 degrees at the moment -- all things in life are tradeoffs.


I'm in a low cost fuel zone I guess. Arizona is two blocks away and ARCO is selling Top Tier for less than bottom tier gas, goes to show how full of crap Top Tier really is. Gas Stations have been selling their own proprietary cleaners for about 100 years now. Anyway my California Town is selling gas for $3.99, and its $2.11 across state lines! Oh and it was 100 degrees today too


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

Diesel taxes are going up $0.20 in CA come November. Hopefully they will exempt renewables, but I doubt it. I may buy a couple barrels of HPR to keep in the garage before the tax hike.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

IndyDiesel said:


> I understand your logic, but for me, outside temp and wind and traffic could effect economy. Today there is 30 mph wind plus, I rarely drive with the wind at my back.


I'm with IndyDiesel on this as being the reality but more on real life with a diesel... here in the Midwest we have other concerns which are not encountered in CA. Like how well does it flow at real temps of -37F without adding any additional fuel additives? 

*renaissanceman* Have you examined any of your sensors, MAP, EGR, etc. for soot coating/clogging before and after switching to this new HPR fuel? It would be interesting to see any difference after running regular diesel then cleaning the sensors and running on the HPR stuff, this could be another way in determining how well it performs. 
The cleaner the sensors are the better they should perform in allowing the ECU to calculate proper engine tweeks therefore better MPG/performance? One can clean all the sensors and after a day of running they are coated pretty good with soot when running on BIO20 Diesel.



DslGate said:


> We're fluctuating between $1.99 in Wisco or about 2.09-2.19 for No IL for diesel, so it would be a hard sell for me to bite at 2.59 for synthetic bio based diesel. Wisco also has the Premium Diesel fuel with 0 bio for about 2.00-2.19 a gallon too. Kwik-Trip!


Where can one find diesel for those prices in No IL, 2.09 to 2.19, Im around the Rockford area and paying typically 2.49 to 2.59 for BIO20 from high volume stations?


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## renaissanceman (Feb 23, 2017)

I do not yet own a CTD -- I've got my eye on a Gen 2, but I want to see if it is rife with emissions issues like Gen 1 is before pulling the trigger. 

I'm currently running a steady diet of Propel HPR in my 1987 Mercedes -- it runs *significantly *cleaner than #2 or B20. It has no smoke under full throttle and no smoke while idling, whereas #2 has light smoke at idle and will leave a noticeable cloud under WOT acceleration.


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## BlueTopaz (Aug 25, 2012)

This right here is proof that with a high quality fuel, emissions will be reduced. Big oil just doesn't want to do it. No money in it for them. I wish Propel was over here on the east coast. I would run it 100%.


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

Never heard of this stuff, turns out there's a Propel HPR station a block from my Dad in California. 

It's currently priced at $2.79/gal. That's about average for #2 diesel in the area. However there's an Arco within 10 miles that's 2.53/gal, about the same as my Arizona home. Not sure I want to pay $3 bucks more per tank vs plain old #2. 

Also wondering if there would be any negatives switching back and forth between HPR and #2? May not always be near a Propel dealer.

As for B20, I've never been a biodiesel fan. No particular reason...just paranoid I guess. Filling up the Cummins the other day here in Arizona I found out I've been unknowingly buying B20. Usually it's prominently advertised with signage out by the street. But this particular station only shows a small 4" sticker on the pump stating it's B20. No wonder it was 30 cents/gal cheaper...always trade offs, huh?


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## magnusson (Jun 15, 2014)

Propel has an app in the play store which locates all the HPR locations. A couple are on my commute for $2.59 a gallon. Im going to try and run this stuff solely and see if it helps with sensor issues.


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## Cruz15 (Mar 17, 2016)

If anyone knows of an equivalent in Ont Canada Please tell.
Thanks.


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## ocdingbat (Jan 12, 2019)

Been trying to surf the web to do research on this HPR stuff. So far everything I see leads me to believe its not going to hurt to try the stuff. I will first be trying in on my 07 Duramax. 
I did download the Propel app and noticed there are at least 5 stations on my way to work (near LAX) and one about 15 minutes from my house. The price is listed as 10cents a gallon more than the cheapest #2 in my area. not too bad I guess. In the past weeks 87 octane was averaging 50cent more per gallon than #2 and in some cases up to $1 more in the areas by the airport! 

Anyway, my best guess is to run my truck as close to empty as possible before filling up with this stuff, as it may not be a good idea to mix with whatever #2 is left in the tank? Thoughts?


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## Rivergoer (Mar 30, 2017)

ocdingbat said:


> Been trying to surf the web to do research on this HPR stuff. So far everything I see leads me to believe its not going to hurt to try the stuff. I will first be trying in on my 07 Duramax.
> I did download the Propel app and noticed there are at least 5 stations on my way to work (near LAX) and one about 15 minutes from my house. The price is listed as 10cents a gallon more than the cheapest #2 in my area. not too bad I guess. In the past weeks 87 octane was averaging 50cent more per gallon than #2 and in some cases up to $1 more in the areas by the airport!
> 
> Anyway, my best guess is to run my truck as close to empty as possible before filling up with this stuff, as it may not be a good idea to mix with whatever #2 is left in the tank? Thoughts?


Never have tried Propel but noticed there’s one in Fullerton, CA on the SW corner of Chapman and Raymond. Here’s a Google Street View taken in February 2019:










I’d think your approach of getting the tank as empty as possible before switching would be best. If for no other reason it would ensure your comparison to diesel #2 performance would be a bit more pure.


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## Diesel4Ever (May 30, 2018)

ocdingbat said:


> Been trying to surf the web to do research on this HPR stuff. So far everything I see leads me to believe its not going to hurt to try the stuff. I will first be trying in on my 07 Duramax.
> I did download the Propel app and noticed there are at least 5 stations on my way to work (near LAX) and one about 15 minutes from my house. The price is listed as 10cents a gallon more than the cheapest #2 in my area. not too bad I guess. In the past weeks 87 octane was averaging 50cent more per gallon than #2 and in some cases up to $1 more in the areas by the airport!
> 
> Anyway, my best guess is to run my truck as close to empty as possible before filling up with this stuff, as it may not be a good idea to mix with whatever #2 is left in the tank? Thoughts?


HPR is a marketing name licensed by propel. The fuel is actually Hydrotreated Vegetable Oil (HVO) AKA Renewable Diesel. I've been using it for almost 3 years in multiple diesel vehicles.

The main issue with HPR is that it can cause fuel system leaks in older diesel fuel systems that don't use Viton or other synthetics. The theory is that an absence of hydrocarbons inhibit or reduce seal swell in with this "Green" fuel. I tried mixing it 50/50 in my '03 Golf TDI and it developed a fuel leak in the return line from the injection pump. I filled back up with D2 and it went away so probably not a coincidence. 

And my experience is different than some of the comments in regards to fuel economy. I do notice a slight decrease in steady fuel economy when using it, like 5-7%. However, this may be offset by an extended time before regeneration of the DPF if your car has one.

I also notice a minor loss of low end torque w/ HPR. Top end still feels the same but low end feels effected. The cars run very nice and smooth on it though. No smoke and very little smell running on emssions-less diesel engines. The raw liquid fuel has an unusual smell, smells kinda like unscented wax candles or paraffin.


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## froyofanatic (Jul 16, 2018)

I run this stuff as much as I am able to. The higher cetane levels seem to give a little extra power, it burns cleanly with zero odor, and the fact that it comes from farm waste gives me a little bit of smut knowing my carbon footprint is lower than a Prius, without all the battery mumbojumbo.


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## froyofanatic (Jul 16, 2018)

Smug not smut ?


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## ocdingbat (Jan 12, 2019)

Just filled up the Cruze. Screw it. Lets see how it runs. Definitely a quieter idle!


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