# Hybrids vs. Diesels - Study



## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Another study reveals hybrids are best in city driving, diesels are best on the highway. This isn't news, it's been known for a long time.

What is surprising is the lack of diesel hybrids...

Another Study Confirms: Hybrids Do Best In Cities, Diesels On Highways


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> Another study reveals hybrids are best in city driving, diesels are best on the highway. This isn't news, it's been known for a long time.
> 
> What is surprising is the lack of diesel hybrids...
> 
> Another Study Confirms: Hybrids Do Best In Cities, Diesels On Highways


Give it time. I think as CAFE standards in the US creep up we will start seeing hybrid diesels. The biggest issue I see with this is keeping the battery charged enough in the winter to warm the diesel fuel so it will flow. The car will have to do this or we'll see these cars refusing to start just like we had the CT member east of Colorado Springs last winter get the summer blend from a low volume station and then blame GM for his car not starting because the fuel gelled. In the case of hybrid diesels there really would be some culpability on the manufacturer's part because the fuel stays in the tank a lot longer.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

With large batteries I would think heating fuel would be easy in a hybrid, though it would cost a bit of energy to do it. If it's a plug in hybrid the tank could be pre-heated with grid power, just like the battery. That would be the ultimate "block" heater!


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Unfortunately the car manufacturer can't assume you'll plug your hybrid in at night.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

What surprises me is that there are not LPG powered Hybrids readily available, especially in Australia where most taxi's run on it already?


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## CharlesH (Aug 30, 2014)

I found myself wondering about diesel hybrids just the other day. They make sense to me. Granted I'd be the guy who always remembers to plug in his vehicle at night. And that would definitely make it cheap to keep the fuel warm.


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## GotDiesel? (Sep 9, 2013)

For Giggles , I test drove a Ahem 09 and 13 Toyota Prius and yes they get good MPG but no Grins per gallon. My VW was totaled a few weeks ago by a gal txting and ran a light and hit me just right . I walk away , wait sounds like a subaru ad , they lived ... yes I did . So I am thinking to give a cruze another chance or am I asking for punishment ??. Had Zero issues with my 2013 VW Golf, and it was tuned as well . Car had only 18,000 miles on it as I do drive ... I don't like the new 2015 VW golf by any means.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Diesel hybrid. Sounds pricey! 

Then again VW has a turbo hybrid. So I guess if any manufacturer were to do it...it would be a German one.


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## Sperry (Aug 3, 2013)

I believe V.W. has already done the diesel hybrid but figured the costs would be make it a really tough sell.. I would be interested though . It would unreal having car that routinely gets 70 - 80 mph combined... I'll have look for the prototype test I saw ,Might be able to reach 1200 or 1300 miles on one tank ..


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

With the right engine and compression ratio, a diesel hybrid could get by without a turbo since the electric portion of the drivetrain would be on hand to help out.

Honestly, I think a Range-EXtender BEV like the Volt or i3 would be perfect for a diesel since it could be tuned to operate over a very narrow operating RPM for the sole purpose of generating power.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I am not a fan of hybrids in general, but I think a diesel hybrid would be cool.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

obermd said:


> Give it time. I think as CAFE standards in the US creep up we will start seeing hybrid diesels. The biggest issue I see with this is keeping the battery charged enough in the winter to warm the diesel fuel so it will flow. The car will have to do this or we'll see these cars refusing to start just like we had the CT member east of Colorado Springs last winter get the summer blend from a low volume station and then blame GM for his car not starting because the fuel gelled. In the case of hybrid diesels there really would be some culpability on the manufacturer's part because the fuel stays in the tank a lot longer.


I agree, I think we will be seeing a lot more diesel and diesel hybrid cars in the next few years as MPG requirements continue to go up. 

As for the diesel fuel gelling concern, one cannot easily avoid a station selling the wrong blend for the season, but with the proper blend for winter there is no risk of gelling. The problem will become those driving north in the winter with a tank of fuel and finding colder weather. I do not know if the southern states use a colder blend of diesel fuel or not? They may have to start if they don't or we will see many more gelling problems. Most consumers will not be tolerant of having to "mix" their own fuel.


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm not much of a fan of hybrids either. Until they can clearly trounce the MPG of a non-hybrid and the price of fuel goes up higher then it is now, I just wouldn't want to have that much electrical stuff in my car. 

I suspect , that if you really looked at the total impact of a hybrid on the environment, from it's initial build, through it's final disposal/recycle, it'd have a higher impact on the world's environment then high millage getting non-hybrid.

Whatever happened to the hydrogen economy?


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

iggy said:


> Until they can clearly trounce the MPG of a non-hybrid


That's already the case if you do much city driving. For someone who does a lot of heavy traffic commuting a Prius makes a compelling argument on a spreadsheet... it's the "desire" department where it really falls short, it's basically an appliance.



iggy said:


> Whatever happened to the hydrogen economy?


Hydrogen fuel cell cars are becoming availavle now, in limited numbers and for lease only, in specific regions. My personal feeling is that hydrogen fuel cells are too little and too late. By the time they become economical to manufacture and a fueling infrastructure exists, BEVs will be a much more simple solution that are affordable and practical for most people.

If they were 10 years ahead of where they are now they might stand a chance. I think they are not much more than a way for companies to recieve funding for development programs. That's only my opinion.


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## iggy (Feb 14, 2013)

Yeah, I hear you on all that Blue Angel... but I personally don't do the heavy traffic commute thank god. 

Now, it's mostly off topic, but I just don't see how automakers are going to get to the 2025 CAFE standards... I guess maybe there's some strange math that can be done to make it work out, but wow... As a 52 year old American male the numbers seem just crazy.

I very much enjoy driving my cruze, but I can't hardly imagine how they are going to get one up to 56MPG without making it a lot less enjoyable to drive. Maybe on a diet of nothing but aluminum?


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

iggy said:


> I'm not much of a fan of hybrids either. Until they can clearly trounce the MPG of a non-hybrid and the price of fuel goes up higher then it is now, I just wouldn't want to have that much electrical stuff in my car.
> 
> I suspect , that if you really looked at the total impact of a hybrid on the environment, from it's initial build, through it's final disposal/recycle, it'd have a higher impact on the world's environment then high millage getting non-hybrid.
> 
> Whatever happened to the hydrogen economy?


If you look at fuelly for the ECO MT and CDT you'll discover that many drivers of these two cars get better fuel economy than most hybrids. Hybrids shine in the city. Pure EVs (other than Tesla) shine on short trips in and around large cities and as second cars. I would not bet against your suspicion that hybrids, when taken from initial build, which includes the mining of the rare earths, to junkyard are harder on the environment than an equivalent gas or diesel car. If you throw in recycling the car I think the hybrid would win, especially with some of the new technologies coming out of research labs to recycle the batteries.

I don't think hydrogen cars will ever be more than a fleet niche. Remember the uproar when that NHTSA owned crash test Volt caught fire while sitting in the NHTSA's test lot weeks after the testing was done. How do you think people would respond if the hydrogen tank were pierced in an accident. I think the media would be calling it the "Hindencar".


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

CAFE MGP is about 20% higher than EPA MPG so 56 MPG CAFE is about 45 MPG EPA, which is doable. What irritates me is that SUVs and light trucks, which were exempted from the higher standards in the 70s because they didn't exist (SUVs) or were limited to farms, are now the most common vehicles on the road yet they're still under lower requirements. This is true for both fuel economy and tail pipe emissions.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

"Hindencar" - LOL

When I worked for Transport Canada we had a Nissan FCV (Fuel Cell Vehicle) concept cutaway on display at the Toronto Auto Show. A guy with his young children in tow casually walks through our exhibit, without stoping, says "Yeah, like I want a nuclear ----ing bomb in my trunk!"

I don't think his kids will grow up with open minds to FCVs.


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## DrKlahn (Feb 10, 2014)

Gasoline is every bit as volatile as hydrogen. Which would be more dangerous depends on the situation of the accident and how the hydrogen is stored. Hydrogen is clearly not at the forefront of alternatives to gas powered vehicles, but I wouldn't count it out. It has some compelling properties.

As far as a diesel hybrid goes, it's a no-brainer. Locomotives have been diesel hybrids for decades. A Volt with the upcoming Cruze Diesel engine would be a very compelling product. Personally I think we'll see huge capacitors with very quick recharge times replace batteries and the ICE at some point.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

The big drawback to hydrogen is that to store enough of it in a car to have decent range you have to pressurize it. I've seen what happens when a pressure container is "holed". Not pretty.


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## DrKlahn (Feb 10, 2014)

Yeah I don't think you'll see pressurized hydrogen gas tanks as a mainstream option. Work on alternative storage and processes progresses. 

Even with the pressurized hydrogen tank scenario, a puncture without a nearby ignition source in an accident may be preferable to a punctured gasoline tank with flammable liquid spilling all over, vaporizing as it does and potentially flowing towards an ignition source. The pressurized hydrogen tank would disperse its contents very quickly too. Though again, a pressurized tank, is not likely to be a mainstream option. The best bet for hydrogen is a chemical process or perhaps a super efficient electrolysis technique that produces the gas as needed from a safe source.


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

diesel said:


> I am not a fan of hybrids in general, but I think a diesel hybrid would be cool.


Volvo V60, I believe it is, is a diesel plug in hybrid in Europe. I seem to remember something like 60-70 US MPG average. Best of all, it's a hybrid that looks like a real car! I also believe the non hybrid diesel version V60 is in the US, so may be "easier" to bring to the N. American market.


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## Slammed2014Eco (Feb 13, 2014)

Yea, this isn't really "news" I guess but my wifes ford fusion hybrid is awesome in the city and **** on the highway. It won't kick into the electric drive after 63mph and it revs so high on the highway it gets around 32mpg or so. But our CTD on the other hand once the fear of merging into traffic on the highway is gone we get an easy 38mpg with it on the hwy usually more.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

RE: capacitors
There are several lithium cell technologies on the horizon that claim to double cell capacity, reduce 80% charge time to a few minutes, or some combination of the two. I'm not so sure the super capacitor will get much market share as their capacities are still extremely limited. The SC has no equal in power delivery and charge time, though... the limit to how fast they charge is often limited by the power source, not the capacitor itself. This is a reality for hyper charging lithium cells also. High current DC charging stations are expensive.

It's a good thing that most people's commutes can be covered by the energy from a standard 15A 120V wall circuit over a 12 hr charging period (over night). Most people don't consider that, and the opposers of BEVs often exaggerate charging difficulties and the "impact" it would have on the grid if everyone drove a BEV.


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## DrKlahn (Feb 10, 2014)

Blue Angel said:


> RE: capacitors
> There are several lithium cell technologies on the horizon that claim to double cell capacity, reduce 80% charge time to a few minutes, or some combination of the two. I'm not so sure the super capacitor will get much market share as their capacities are still extremely limited. The SC has no equal in power delivery and charge time, though... the limit to how fast they charge is often limited by the power source, not the capacitor itself. This is a reality for hyper charging lithium cells also. High current DC charging stations are expensive.
> 
> It's a good thing that most people's commutes can be covered by the energy from a standard 15A 120V wall circuit over a 12 hr charging period (over night). Most people don't consider that, and the opposers of BEVs often exaggerate charging difficulties and the "impact" it would have on the grid if everyone drove a BEV.


The problem is you need store enough charge to be comparable to the average range of a tank of fossil fuels. You also need to replace the charge in roughly the time it takes to fill a tank. Otherwise you are stuck with hybrids or a conventional ICE. Or owning a pure electric in addition to a car for trips outside its range. 

Lithium and other rare earth batteries are not a long term answer. Their supply is limited. The capacitors I was referring to are being developed right now. One I read about used carbon nanotubes. Charge time was incredibly fast. Carbon is as plentiful as you could ask for. Right now the challenges are safety and scaling these technologies to meet the requirements of an electric vehicle (the nanotubes themselves aren't simple to produce yet either). As you mentioned, yes the average household would not be able to recharge these capacitors any faster than the current limitations of the circuit. You would need the equivalent of gas stations with the ability to handle quick charging.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

To be very honest, I love my CTD, but since my commuting situation has changed since I bought it from a lot of highway miles to a daily city commute, if I were buying today I would very strongly consider a Volt. It offers even better advantages than a hybrid for not much higher cost with a better driving experience (if you love torque, no internal combustion engine can beat electric motors for raw torque). 

Aside from a ridiculously expensive Tesla, pure EVs don't yet do it for me as it seems a waste to spend $20k+ on a car that can't really leave town (i.e. Leaf, Focus electric, Spark electric), but a Volt would be perfect. I would get essentially gas-free commuting and still plenty of decent milage on the highway.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

The Volt justification becomes difficult when you are looking at it from a purely spreadsheet point of view. Compared to a Cruze Eco, the price premium paid for a Volt would take an unusually long ownership period to re-coup, far longer even than the 8 year battery warranty.

If I had more money I would have considered the Volt more seriously, been less concerned about making financial sense of the choice and more concerned about enjoying the additional features, cool factor, and added "luxury" inherent with an electric drivetrain.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Blue Angel said:


> The Volt justification becomes difficult when you are looking at it from a purely spreadsheet point of view. Compared to a Cruze Eco, the price premium paid for a Volt would take an unusually long ownership period to re-coup, far longer even than the 8 year battery warranty.
> 
> If I had more money I would have considered the Volt more seriously, been less concerned about making financial sense of the choice and more concerned about enjoying the additional features, cool factor, and added "luxury" inherent with an electric drivetrain.


I like cars too much to drive anything electric. Or anything with a **** CVT for that matter. Given the money, I would buy something that goes fast and makes sexy sounds. Or something from my dads younger years that does the same thing. 

As much as I hate the Prius and its drivers, the engineering that went into the drivetrain is pretty cool. By going from a 1.5 liter motor in the 2nd gen that was overworked most of the time to basically a retuned 1.8 liter Corolla motor that runs Atkinson cycle, they dramatically improved the power/efficiency window of operation for the motor in the 3rd gen Prius and the rest of the hybrid market has been trying to catch up to it for years. 

Hopefully the shift to a slightly bigger/torquier engine has the same benefit for the next gen Volt.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> I like cars too much to drive anything electric.


You need to test drive a Tesla.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

obermd said:


> You need to test drive a Tesla.


I'd rather test drive the new Corvette Z06.

Might consider a hybrid performance car like we're starting to see (McLaren, new Lamborghini) if they become more "affordable". 

But pure electric? Bah.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

I haven't driven the Model S yet, but I've driven the Tesla Roadster and that thing is cool. It is a frigging ROCKET. 

An EV with that kind of power is phenomenal, the throttle response is so quick you literally can't describe it, it must be driven to be appreciated. The fastest of the Model S lineup are surely similar. You so much as flinch your right foot and your head is in the seat... no waiting for the throttle plate to open, air moving to fill the vacuum, intake valves to open, intake - compression - power strokes to take place. When you look at an engine you would think that stuff happens in an instant, but compared to an EV it takes forever.

The lack of a soundtrack is a shame - that Roadster sounds pathetic compared to my Vette for sure - but I bet it would beat my Vette to 60 nine times out of ten. The 1/4 mile is a different story, but still, that car left an impression on me that just won't fade.

I also had a Japanese market iMiEV for a week. Other than having a small fraction of the Roadster's power, everything regarding the throttle response carries over.

J, if you had a second car that made cool noises and visually enhanced your manliness while offering the mileage freedom many people need, an EV would make an awesome daily driver in my opinion.


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

This company's headquarters is located in the town where I do most of my business. 

American Power Group - Home

I've contemplated driving my Cruze up to the offices and seeing if they'd be interested in experimenting with implementing this system on a diesel passenger car. I'd even let them try it out on mine if they let me keep it. Not sure I'd ever work up the initiative to actually walk in and ask, but if I were to find myself working out next to the CEO at the gym or something, I probably wouldn't be able to help myself from pitching the idea to him.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

> J, if you had a second car that made cool noises and visually enhanced your manliness while offering the mileage freedom many people need, an EV would make an awesome daily driver in my opinion.


Public transit ftw! Hate driving here.

Manliness...hmm. Always wanted a truck. But in the meantime, I've had a purple VW Bug (hey, not my choice), 2 grey Toyota Camrys, a gold Honda Accord, grey Buick Century, 2 blue Swede soccer mom cars, and a Cruze. I have a real history of buying manly cars. :icon_scratch:



> that Roadster sounds pathetic compared to my Vette for sure - but I bet it would beat my Vette to 60 nine times out of ten.


You need a faster Vette! Like the new one! :1poke:


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## Sunline Fan (Jul 29, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> Public transit ftw! Hate driving here.


YOU SPOSE TO LET ME MERGE ASKHOLE!


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

jblackburn said:


> You need a faster Vette! Like the new one! :1poke:


There lies the problem... there's always a faster Vette coming out! The one I bought WAS the fastest, but that was back in 2004...


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## DrKlahn (Feb 10, 2014)

Blue Angel said:


> There lies the problem... there's always a faster Vette coming out! The one I bought WAS the fastest, but that was back in 2004...


Good thing there is soooo much more to the Vette than 0-60. A C5Z is a lot more fun in a lot of ways vs. the Model S. And easier on the pocket book too. Still the Tesla is a great car and the best of it's kind in my opinion.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

You really can't beat a used C5Z in "bang for the buck". A nice clean one with low mileage will set you back $20-$30k, or even less with a little more time on it.

No doubt, Tesla makes a sexy product.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Tesla had to dial back the acceleration of the Roadster. Early prototypes were so fast off the line that their test drivers were getting whiplash. I suspect the Model S has a similar governor on acceleration.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

That's a new one... I heard they had all kinds of issues with the original Roadster drivetrain since it used a two speed transmission that never worked well. AFAIK the issues went away as soon as they went to the single ratio box.

It has stupid traction with the weight of the battery pack over the rear tires. During our media day at the test track I couldn't get it to slip under full throttle. In the rain.


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