# 2012 Cruze ECO MT : Hi-end full audio system upgrade



## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Although the actual install will not be occurring for another few weeks, I decided to post this now as I begin to gather all the gear needed to complete the task.This will be a full system upgrade of the audio system in my 2012 Cruze, resulting in a 4-way active system.All of my crossover points are simply projections. There really is no way of knowing where they will end up until the install is complete.Obviously any input, suggestions, and questions are encouraged!To outline the system, I will being from the front back.
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Head Unit
*Pioneer 'DEX-P99RS'

Pioneer is a legend in the SQ game. This unit is on stage with the best audiophile head-units ever produced. The beauty of it is its 'all-in-one nature'. By having extensive internal Digital Sound Processing (DSP) capabilities, it eliminates the need for an external processor. This reduces the complexity of install, and number of components in the audio chain (less A/D conversions and connections etc).In addition it has top end CD playback capabilities, in addition to bypassing the DAC's in a connected IPOD. Providing lossless audio is put on the ipod in use, there is no cleaner source. All of the following gear will be run active off of this unit, utilizing its 31 L/R EQ, precise Time alignment, individual driver level adjustments, and internal crossovers.

The unit can be found here => DEX-P99RS - Reference-Quality CD Tuner with Digital DSP and USB Port with Digital Direct Signal Transmission | Pioneer of Canada - English








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Front Stage*_Tweeters_ - Hertz Audio 'ML 28'
8000hz and above.

Hertz is an italian company owned by Elettromedia. They same company that produces Audison. I fell in love with these tweeters when I heard them. They suit my personal tastes perfectly. They are warm and laid back. Not much else to say here.










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Mid Range - _Hybrid Audio Technologies 'Legatia L3SE'
400hz - 8000hz

Hybrid Audio or H.A.T, is an american company that in recent years has dominated the SQ compeition scene. These are wide band mid range drivers. To look at, they are beautiful. The phase plugs and magnets are plated with rose copper. Functionally, they allow for my front stage crossover points to be moved out of the spectrum that the human voice lies. This will help with phasing issues occurring in these ranges. In addition, they allow for the front woofers and tweeters to perform optimally as they are not required to reproduce such a large chunk of audio frequencies. This is especially helpful with mid-bass.Info can be found here => Stage VI - Legatia SE - The Home of the World's Finest Loudspeakers, and World Championship Car Audio Speaker Systems.










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Woofers_ - Hertz Audio 'ML 165'
63hz-400hz

These woofers are legends for there amazing mid-bass capabilities. In a project where I do not want to tear into the car for 8 or even 10 inch door woofers, these fit the application perfectly.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

*Sub Stage
*_Subwoofer_ - Image Dynamics 'IDMax 12'
30hz-63hz

Image Dynamics is another american company that has been lauded for their exceptional subs above all else over the last 15 years. From their IDQ series to their top end IDMax. The IDMax retains the SQ of the IDQ with a generous increase in SPL. It functions great anywhere from 200-1000 continuous watts.A pair of these in sealed enclosures will be run.Info can be found here => Car Speakers & Amplifiers | Ontario, CA









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Tactile Transducer_ - Buttkicker Mini
20hz-160hz

If used CORRECTLY these are not simply a gimmick. A tactile transducer or 'bass shaker' can do absolute wonders in a SQ oriented setup. Much of perceived bass is felt, not heard. These allow for the perception of an intense substage and midbass without affecting the actual balance of the system. When set-up properly and not abused, you will never 'hear' better kickdrums or extreme low frequencies like you will with these.

info can be found here => ButtKicker®







*



Amplfiers
*_Tweeters & Midrange -_ Pioneer 'PRS-A900'
This amplifier is the my personal favourite piece of my setup. It is designed purely with SQ in mind. There are no crossovers, there is no bass boost, there is no colouration. There is simply 4 channels and separate left and right gains. It employs separate left and right isolated power supplies with symmetrical circuitry. It is class A/B at its best delivering a pure CLEAN 50watts per channel. One of these will be used with one channel providing power to each tweeter and mid range driver.
0.0035
distortion
75db separation
108db SNR

Info can be found here => PRS-A900 - 4-Channel Bridgeable Amplifier with Filter-less Design | Pioneer of Canada - English







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Woofers_ - Pioneer 'PRS-A900'

Another PRS-A900 will be utilized in the front stage to power the woofers. This one will however be bridged to a 2channel amp, delivering 100watts per channel.*see above for photo and info*
_


Subwoofers_ - Pioneer 'PRS-D1200SPL

This is a tank of an amp, and will be run at 1ohm to supply 600 continuous watts to each subwoofer. It employs multiple forms of protection circuitry and class D power and efficiency. This amp is a powerhouse delivering clean power, never heating up, and built to last. Its job is simple - make power.

info can be found here => PRS-D1200SPL - Premier Competition-Level SPL Class D Mono Amplifier with 2400 Watts Max. Power | Pioneer of Canada - English(This is obviously the matching amp for the listed A900's from above as can be seen in the picture below)








_

Tactile Transducer - _Pioneer 'GM-D7400'

The goal here was simple. Find an amp that makes rated power, has small footprint, and is efficient. This amp fit the bill. A potential 400 continuous watts will feed the buttkicker mini.

info can be found here => GM-D7400M - Class-D Mono Amplifier with 800 Watts Max. Power | Pioneer of Canada - English










*


Power and Connections
*
In total all amps will draw no more than 60amps - most often a fraction of this. To supply this power, true 0 gauge power and ground wires will be used. In addition, a secondary trunk battery will be employed (yellow top optima). Finally the BIG three will be completed to ensure maximum alternator efficiency.Once this is completed whatever further steps are needed will be undergone.
_
Connections_ - Audison 'BT6 550' + Monster Cable subwoofer RCA's

These are both high noise rejection cables. The audisons are 6channel RCAs, while the Monster Cables are 2 channel

info on the audison can be found here =>BT6 550
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The INSTALL
*
This is the most important part of the entire setup. You can have the most expensive gear in the world, and if you won't install it right, you may as well stay stock.For the tweeters and woofers, the stock pillar and door locations will be utilized.
In a desire to minimize permanent alterations to the vehicle, the mid range drivers will be placed in a custom made enclosure of the Cruzes' front door cavities.
The subs will be in sealed enclosures behind a fake wall, separating them under the rear deck from the rest of the trunk.
Already measured out, the two A900 amplifiers will be placed perectly side by side in the ECO's spare tire cavity in the trunk. A false floor will be made utilizing two fans to circulate air within.
The 1200spl will be mounted somewhere hidden behind the false wall with the sub boxes.
The tactile transducer with be mounted under the drivers seat with the GM7400 amp under the passengers seat.
Finally in the trunk and small enclosure will house the secondary battery in the very left rear of the trunk.

The doors will be completely sealed and treated with sufficient Mass Loading material such as Dynamat Xtreme. In addition to this, and acousitc dampening material such as dynaliner with be used.
Info on these products and be found here
=> DynaLiner
=> Sheets and Bulk Paks

The rear doors will just be treated with Dynaliner.The entire floor of the car will be treated with dynapad and 20% dynamat xtreme.
Dynapad can be found here => DynaPad

The trunk will receive sufficient treatment of dynamat xtreme alone.

All in all, the system will weigh in at roughly 250lbs. So one chunky passenger.
*

TO CONCLUDE!
*
This is the beginning of my build. All of the gear has been purchased. Over the next month I will be picking up the final pieces (harnesses, sound dampening materials, connects, etc).


please discuss, comment, suggest and question!!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Have a look at don's products at sounddeadenershowdown.com. IMO, anything dynamat carries pales in comparison, and dynamat is much more expensive. Sure, you get thr name, but thst doesn't mean much.

Any reason why you didnt look at home theater-based drivers? CSS has a VERY nice tweeter with a high xmax and an xbl^2 motor that's hard to beat. While HAT products are nice, I can't see that mid beating that 4" tang band titanium mid. 

I wouldn't call the IDMax an sq sub. I have one and I much prefer the v2 and v3 IDQs for SQ use, having heard them all in all sizes. If I had deep pockets, I'd be looking at two IDQs or one of those beautiful Aurasound 12" neodymium subs you can find at madisound.

Have you considered a 2x8 miniDSP instead of a head-unit based dsp? I have yet to find a single Pioneer deck that even comes close. Sure, they're nice...if you haven't used a miniDSP. The value just isn't there when the miniDSP gives you (if I remember correctly) 30 *parametric* eq bands, time alignment, and slopes up to 48db/octave. With. An sq install like this, I really wouldn't say added complexity is something that should steer you away. Not like it makes a difference when you know what you're doing. For a novice, sure, but you're no novice. 

There are some things I would have done differently given the drivers I've had experience with in home theater speaker design, but it will definitely be an awesome sounding system.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## thormxkid (Nov 19, 2012)

does the miniDSP allow you to tune from the drivers seat?
because if not the would be the down fall compared to a deck that is fully active.
imo stick with the DEX-P99RS.


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## Mattburgess (May 29, 2012)

I used fatmat along time ago in one of my cars . Bought it on ebay for pretty cheap.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I have checked out sounddeadenershowdown many times before. Looking at my post it sounds as if I am set on the dynamat - I am not. I am simply going to be using a product that achieves the same effect as those products listed.
I will definitely be exploring all options here. I would never pay full price for dynamat, because like you said, you pay for the name.

The IDMax is absolutely an SQ sub. I have used it and heard IDQ's in many different setups. Pure SQ wise, sure the IDQ may be the popular choice. This does not take away from the fact that the IDMax is still a fantastic sounding sub. Remember, it will be have an SQ oriented box and tune. At the spl levels I will be listening to, the difference between the two will be negligible. I will have the option to have my sessions that I want to blast it though...and it is here the IDQ's will not keep up. 

As far as home theatre drivers, I'm simply not sure. Those tang band's could be fantastic. From all of the drivers I auditioned, I just like the L3SE the most. The L3SE's are coming from my last install as well. They were in custom A-pillar pods. Which is another big reason I went with them. A 4" driver was just too obtrusive for what I was looking for at the time.












One thing I am sure about is the DSP. Personally I am not a fan. They have their merits, but IMO pale in comparison to the P99RS...and I'll tell you why!

Granted, this is for my needs/wants. 9/10 people the DSP would be the way to go.

1. Complexity of install - not because I want to shy away from it, but because -as you can see from the gear i've chosen- I am proponent of keeping the cleanest audio chain possible. This means reducing items used, minimizing conversions of the audio signal, and greatly reducing the chance for noise to enter the system.

2. IMO the system is only as good as its weakest link. In the past while, stock headunits have leaped forward quality-wise. They are still not even a comparison to the abilities of a P99 though. When used with a stock unit a DSP will work wonders, but it is still going to need to be employed somewhat as a bandaid for the shortcomings coming from upstream.

3. I have 350gig of lossless music. This means that I use my ipod alot. The P99 allows direct bypass of the ipods extremely shitty DAC's. Only a few units do this nowadays. (also, the IPOD interface is fantastic)

4. In seat tuning. It doesn't need a laptop, software, or files to load it. I can access its DSP and tune on the fly with relative ease, without moving.


I could go on for days but I won't lol. The miniDSP is a great piece of gear. Sure it has the P99 beat value wise for its DSP cababilities. Even so, with 31band L/R, individual level adjustment, up to 36db slope etc, one should be able to create a world class system. Would more be nice? sure, but its absolutely not necessary.
However DSP isn't everything. The miniDSP is a great option if you want to keep a stock appearance. I do not. Overall the P99 is a much better option if SQ is your concern and not value.




I appreciate your input! I will try and take a listen to those tang-band drivers if I can find some.
How is their off-axis response. I've always liked my drivers on axis to minimize reflections etc, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to achieve that here. The L3SE plays great even at 60degrees off.

What product would you recommend for something similar to dynamats DYNALINER and DYNAPAD?
also, I haven't heard those Aurasound subs. What is your experience with them?

What would you have personally done differently with the drivers? (remember i'm not looking at value here)



Any suggestions on midrange install? my only stipulation with this install is that i'm not doing anything to the car that cannot be put back to stock. 




XtremeRevolution said:


> Have a look at don's products at sounddeadenershowdown.com. IMO, anything dynamat carries pales in comparison, and dynamat is much more expensive. Sure, you get thr name, but thst doesn't mean much.
> 
> Any reason why you didnt look at home theater-based drivers? CSS has a VERY nice tweeter with a high xmax and an xbl^2 motor that's hard to beat. While HAT products are nice, I can't see that mid beating that 4" tang band titanium mid.
> 
> ...


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Mattburgess said:


> I used fatmat along time ago in one of my cars . Bought it on ebay for pretty cheap.



I've heard of fatmat for ages now. I'll definitely be looking into it.

Whats your experience been like with it? good? bad?


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## Mick (Dec 31, 2011)

Where are you mounting the head unit?


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I will be replacing the stock stereo.
Most likely using metra's mounting kit.














I will check out the scosche kit as well. 

















which do you guys prefer?

I like the black scosche look more, but i don't like the door chime speaker built in.


I also don't know what i'm doing with the second opening yet. I may just use the pocket to hold my wallet or something while i'm driving. Or I could have some plexi cruze symbol made. Any suggestions?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

thormxkid said:


> does the miniDSP allow you to tune from the drivers seat?
> because if not the would be the down fall compared to a deck that is fully active.
> imo stick with the DEX-P99RS.


It does not, but I don't know of any true audiophiles who are afraid to roll up their sleeves and put a bit more time into something to make it work excellently. If you're like me, you'll tune and tune until its perfect. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> I have checked out sounddeadenershowdown many times before. Looking at my post it sounds as if I am set on the dynamat - I am not. I am simply going to be using a product that achieves the same effect as those products listed.
> I will definitely be exploring all options here. I would never pay full price for dynamat, because like you said, you pay for the name.
> 
> The IDMax is absolutely an SQ sub. I have used it and heard IDQ's in many different setups. Pure SQ wise, sure the IDQ may be the popular choice. This does not take away from the fact that the IDMax is still a fantastic sounding sub. Remember, it will be have an SQ oriented box and tune. At the spl levels I will be listening to, the difference between the two will be negligible. I will have the option to have my sessions that I want to blast it though...and it is here the IDQ's will not keep up.
> ...



Don't get me wrong, the idmax is amazing. I have one and I recommended it to terry (tecollins1) who bought it and loves it. However, his was $200 brand new. It is one of my favorite drivers next to the IDQ 15v2. However, you are paying a lot for one thing: size. Two IDQ12 v3 subs and even two IDQ10 v3 subs will play louder and cleaner than one single idmax12 while costing nearly the same. The idmax is great if you want the highest output out of a very small box.

You need to spend some time around home theater drivers to know the difference. I can assure you that if your exposure Is limited to overpriced car audio parts, you will always pay a lot for the name and will miss out on some incredible drivers. The 4" tang bands are in the statement speaker series, paired with a dayton rs woofer and a fountek ribbon tweeter. With the phase plug design, off-axis response is amazing. The neo driver version is expensive though...$80 or so each. The flange is also a bit large.

The minidsp is not exclusive to use with a factory head unit. Keep that in mind. I use it there because it allows me to create the absolute best sounding system for $1000 USD total. That says a lot. Your head unit comes close to the cost of my entire install. One option would be to use a cheaper pioneer premier deck that doesn't have fancy crossovers or eq and use the minidsp with that 

Your in-seat tuning is as I see it a negative. My laptop interface to the minidsp is very easy to use and see, and I always use my laptop when tuning anyway because I take distortion and frequency response measurements with my m-audio phantom power microphone pre-amp and dayton measurement microphone. I wouldn't dream of tuning without those, minidsp or not.

Is that 31-band a graphic eq? I have to admit the parametric eq plugin I used on the minidsp was worlds more powerful than the graphic eq plugin. For ultimate tuning ability, a parametric eq wins every time. The 2-way minidsp has 18 bands of parametric eq. I was able to do infinitely more with those than I was with the graphic eq plugin. 

As for drivers, those css tweeters I mentioned are simply amazing. There is a review of them on techtalk.parts-express.com, and their off-axis response, massive power handling, incredibly low harmonic distortion, and overall performance just blows anything else I've seen. I have a pair I was sent for review and I haven't had a chance to personally use them, but the review I've seen by expert speaker designers is amazing.

I would have to look at mids, but for woofers, you have options by scanspeak and seas that you will find in $5000-$10000 home theater speakers, for just ovrr $100 apiece. Simply put, you pay for the design and performance, not the name. Tell me, how much is that Hertz label costing you? See what I mean?

Those aurasound subs are very highly respected across car audio boards for excellent SQ, but they have to be respected. You can bottom them out, and you can destroy them if you're not careful. Not your typical "made to be abused" subwoofer.

All this is mostly for discussion. There are many ways to achieve an objective and many price points with which to achieve it. I just figured I would provide my own ideas and experience. Not that yours is bad or wrong, but having spent some time working with, listening to, and measuring some fine home theater drivers, you will never find me recommending car audio parts because I see them as a poor value compared to drivers oriented toward home theater speaker designers. The Silver Flutes are one example. At $30 apiece, they put to shame anything at or twice their price in home theater or car audio.

Get into home speaker design and you'll see a new art and will learn a lot just as I did. I thought I knew a lot till I registered on the techtalk.parts-express.com boards. I was instantly humbled and still am. I always learn something when I post there. Those guys make my knowledge look elementary. I'd almost dare to say car audio is like a children's playground, whereas home audio is where the big boys and real men play. 

I am so hung up on value in car audio simply because I can get such better sound for the same money designing home theater speakers.

Btw, it is a pleasure having these discussions.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Well I should say first off, these drivers are costing me nothing. I already own them haha. I should also say that I completely understand mark-up due to brand name, and that I have received great deals on all of my gear. So don't think that I paid $1600 for each A900 etc.

The products that I still need to procure are,
-sounds deadening
-mounting kit
-harnesses
-acoustic barriers
-wiring


With regards to the IDQ vs IDMax, yes two IDQ will be louder than one Max. I however will have two IDMax subs. As you noted, IDMax will allow for more output from a small box. This is one of my wants in my substage. I am actually picking up the subwoofers this coming week, and am not paying much more than IDQ's go for.


Back on the DSP....

I understand you don't need a stock unit. You just often see this as it allows people the processing power while keeping stock appearance. Not a worry of mine. If I were to combine it with a deck void of 'fancy eq's and crossovers' (which is exactly what the miniDSP is ) I would have just stuck with my last headunit - McIntosh MX-406. Now that thing was sexy

I may just be missing this here, but how is being able to have full access to your tuning from the drivers seat at any time a negative?
As for the EQ. Yes, it is graphic. Yes parametric would be better. However the graphic EQ is no slouch. 31 bands left and right is a heck of a capability, and anyone that can't achieve great results with that should re-evaluate their tuning capabilities.

Overall I think you are just glossing over the reasons that I think the P99 is far superior. It doesn't all come down to sound processing. It is the culmination of an intuitive interface, providing the cleanest source signal possible, and still having in depth processing for tuning. 
A miniDSP should not be employed as a band-aid.
Pairing it with a source unit such as the MX-406 is the only way I would rank it on par with the P99. Even then, you don't have the ipod features, and are again adding components to the audio chain, etc.

The miniDSP is a great option. Just not the best option.


As for woofers, if I didn't love the ML 165 so much, scanspeak revelators would be top of my list.


With everything you have recommended I can see that you indeed do place value in very high accord. Remember though, I'm not looking at sheer value. Regardless of the components used, audio systems are in the land of diminishing returns, and paying alot more for little improvement is often unavoidable. 






oh, and childrens playground? haha 
the car environment is terrible. Mastering car audio is a feat. Those who give up go home and play in their living rooms


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> Well I should say first off, these drivers are costing me nothing. I already own them haha. I should also say that I completely understand mark-up due to brand name, and that I have received great deals on all of my gear. So don't think that I paid $1600 for each A900 etc.
> 
> The products that I still need to procure are,
> -sounds deadening
> ...


Tuning from your seat is to me unnecessary as it's useless to me. I like to see my measurements when I tune, and I need my laptop for that anyway. 

There are certain frequencies from 2k up to 6k that will need to be very precisely tuned, and no matter how good you are, a graphic eq will greatly limit your abilities. I've had this happen to me, and it's the reason why I went with the PEQ plugin. I needed to tone down the entire 2.8k to 4k range, and with a GEQ, I would not have been able to do that. 

It is not always the best option, but its processing power is very hard to argue. You simply don't get those options in a head unit unless you spend a lot of money. Again, value is what I look at. I don't care for the interface or in-seat tuning or fancy appearance. That's just me. I do see the value in an aftermarket head unit over stock, but that boosts my install cost by 1.5x without making it sound 1.5x better. For you, it may be different. I also don't care for tuning convenience because with the right tools and the right drivers, I can make it perfect the first time around. If I don't like something, it will be a consequence of my drivers, not my tuning. I spend a lot of time researching the specific aspects of the drivers I use. I analyze distortion and FR measurements as well as TS parameters and buy something I know will work well instead of spending my time tuning in a band-aid to cover up a flaw in a driver. 

Mastering car audio is futile unless you live in a car. Like I said, get into home theater speaker design and you'll see what I mean. It's not about giving up, but about recognizing the differences and acknowledging the futility in trying to make something perfect. You may get close, but it will always be simply good enough. You will come home, and enjoy what you cannot put in your car. 

I call it a children's playground because anyone with a lot of money can just throw parts at car to make it sound better, but real engineering and art is involved in designing home audio speakers, and that includes cabinet construction.

In car audio, I am limited by my wallet. In home audio, I am limited by my intelligence, experience, knowledge, and creativity. 

For wiring, I prefer knukoncept. For sound deadening and sound barriers, I prefer SDS.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## Mick (Dec 31, 2011)

jstoner22 said:


> I will be replacing the stock stereo.
> Most likely using metra's mounting kit.
> 
> 
> ...


I prefer the piano black. But I don't like how both have the opening so low. Don't know why it bothers me so much. Can you take a picture of the center console once the trim and stereo are off please. Trying to see what kind of room your working with and why it needs to be so low.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Ya, I know the silver is stock colouring...but I really like the piano black too.

Really I have no idea why they are that low. The car hasn't been taken apart yet so I haven't seen behind.

If both companies are in that exact same position, I'm assuming there is some obstruction behind.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

actually after taking a long look at the stock unit it doesn't seem that low.

with a single din unit, I will be utilizing the upper slot. the lower will just be a pocket. Looking where this slot would be, it is the same height as the stock unit controls.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm curious - what does everyone think about the install of the mids?

I want to find a fabric close to that used on the dash inserts and build an enclosure to fill in the door cavities. Yes, I will lose a little bit of storage space, but no alterations are needed to the car really...and should look decent enough i think?

the only other place I could think of putting them is behind the cloth inserts on each door between the door handles and dash air vent. 
This seems like the perfect location actually, but would require modifying the car. It would also mean it is sharing the air space with the woofers.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> I'm curious - what does everyone think about the install of the mids?
> 
> I want to find a fabric close to that used on the dash inserts and build an enclosure to fill in the door cavities. Yes, I will lose a little bit of storage space, but no alterations are needed to the car really...and should look decent enough i think?
> 
> ...


Wait, where exactly are you planning on putting these mids? You mention door cavities...are you referring to right above the door? If so, I am completely missing the point of having mids to begin with. Those CSS tweeters I mentioned earlier will play down to 1500hz without any effort at all, and finding a woofer that can play up to 1500hz is not the least bit difficult. If you're going to have your mids completely off-axis and facing your feet like the will the woofers, there's almost no point in having them because your sound stage will still be too low. 

The air space used by the woofers is more like a *very *leaky box. What consequence do you think it will be that the two will share the same space? Your mids won't require any significant amount of excursion. The issue you'll run into there is not the fact that they're sharing the airspace (as if it will be even close to sealed), but the fact that they are in the same enclosure; meaning you will have sound waves coming from the back of the woofer that will play back into the back of the midrange as distortion. Don't expect to have any success actually sealing those doors; the purpose here is not to seal the doors to create an enclosure out of them. You'd have to glue your windows shut to do that. The purpose for sealing off the metal panel to which the speaker mounts to is to prevent the backwaves of the speaker from reaching the front waves that are playing into the cabin so that bass cancellation doesn't occur. This is why I don't think there's any point to actually sealing off the door. You need a vibration deadeners for the metal panels and plastic door skins (and good purpose built ones at that, like SDS CLD tiles), and a mass loaded material to block the sound from coming through the door, which is what Don's MLV does. This has all been researched.

On an alternate note, where did you get that dash pad and how much did you pay for it?


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Wait, where exactly are you planning on putting these mids? You mention door cavities...are you referring to right above the door? If so, I am completely missing the point of having mids to begin with. Those CSS tweeters I mentioned earlier will play down to 1500hz without any effort at all, and finding a woofer that can play up to 1500hz is not the least bit difficult. If you're going to have your mids completely off-axis and facing your feet like the will the woofers, there's almost no point in having them because your sound stage will still be too low.
> 
> The air space used by the woofers is more like a *very *leaky box. What consequence do you think it will be that the two will share the same space? Your mids won't require any significant amount of excursion. The issue you'll run into there is not the fact that they're sharing the airspace (as if it will be even close to sealed), but the fact that they are in the same enclosure; meaning you will have sound waves coming from the back of the woofer that will play back into the back of the midrange as distortion. Don't expect to have any success actually sealing those doors; the purpose here is not to seal the doors to create an enclosure out of them. You'd have to glue your windows shut to do that. The purpose for sealing off the metal panel to which the speaker mounts to is to prevent the backwaves of the speaker from reaching the front waves that are playing into the cabin so that bass cancellation doesn't occur. This is why I don't think there's any point to actually sealing off the door. You need a vibration deadeners for the metal panels and plastic door skins (and good purpose built ones at that, like SDS CLD tiles), and a mass loaded material to block the sound from coming through the door, which is what Don's MLV does. This has all been researched.
> 
> On an alternate note, where did you get that dash pad and how much did you pay for it?



This is what I was referring to when I said sharing airspace. Almost all doors are big enough for each driver to 'see' 3x their Vas. Meaning their shouldn't be any interference from back pressure. Cancellation can still occur though. Just a minor concern.

I am referring to where you are able to place a water bottle in the door. Ideally that mid would be as on axis as possible placed in a custom enclosure here. They would not be firing straight across. The L3SE will play flat up to 8000hz 30degrees off axis no problem, so there is a little bit of flexibility into the angling of drivers.
Regardless of their positioning, the idea is that they allow you to move the crossover points somewhere outside of the spectrum that the human voice lay. This and to reduce the bandwidth reproduced by each driver - thereby maximizing each drivers efficiency and reducing distortion.
Really if I were to get rid of a driver, it would be the tweeters. The L3SE's will play up to 18,000hz on axis no problem without any eq'ing.

This is just the best option as of now. I may decide to have them in the upper door

The yellow x's are the 'cavity' that i'm referring to. (with my seating position, there is no obstruction from legs)
The red x's are my second option. Simply because it means cutting into the door.









As for sealing the door, its never going to be completely sealed. But I'm going to make sure its as close as possible. I need to maximize every bit of power being delivered to the woofers. 




I purchased the DashMat from Automotive Interiors - interior kits, carpet kits, seat covers
was $50

My cruze dashmat is the limited edition fabric.

I'm not sure if you saw a picture of the dashmat in my accessories thread, but here it is again.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> This is what I was referring to when I said sharing airspace. Almost all doors are big enough for each driver to 'see' 3x their Vas. Meaning their shouldn't be any interference from back pressure. Cancellation can still occur though. Just a minor concern.
> 
> I am referring to where you are able to place a water bottle in the door. Ideally that mid would be as on axis as possible placed in a custom enclosure here. They would not be firing straight across. The L3SE will play flat up to 8000hz 30degrees off axis no problem, so there is a little bit of flexibility into the angling of drivers.
> Regardless of their positioning, the idea is that they allow you to move the crossover points somewhere outside of the spectrum that the human voice lay. This and to reduce the bandwidth reproduced by each driver - thereby maximizing each drivers efficiency and reducing distortion.
> ...


Looks like the off-axis response is indeed good. I saw the manual for the driver first, then checked the price. At $500+ a set, I would sure hope so!!!

That speaker will not play full range *well*. Trust me on that one. This is another one of those areas where you need to try it to know what I'm talking about. Many full-range drivers will play all the way up to 20khz without any issues. Looking at their frequency response, everything looks magnificent, but once you have a listen, you realize why nobody builds *good *speakers with them or similar drivers without a tweeter. They will play highs, but the highs will sound strained. They will sound mudded. They will lack that nice airy and spacious sound, and harmonic distortion will be high. It's not just about frequency response. You can't take a very light and articulate silk dome and replace it with a paper/fiber cone and expect it to sound anywhere near similar or detailed. 

You're thinking about how well the driver will play off-axis, but what that will do to your sound stage? Would you move your tweeters at your feet since those play well off-axis too? Don't answer that...

Do you see where I'm going with this? You have made the decision that putting your sound stage from 8khz on down near your feet or knees will be a worthy sacrifice to keeping your crossover points out of the vocal range. That in itself is an admirable effort and definitely something one should strive for, but what are you compromising? I could have fit an incredible tweeter and even created a nice flared horn for it and stuck it in my door, but then I'd be ruining my sound stage, and that's one thing that makes peoples' jaws drop when they have a listen in my car.

I would try to move those mids as high as you possibly can, even if it means placing them in some small sealed speaker pods and attaching them to your dash with velcro. 

How does sealing your woofers maximize the power you can give them? What is it you're trying to accomplish here? What exactly is the reason why you want that door as close to air-tight and sealed as possible? 

Reducing bandwidth produced by a driver is only relevant if you're exceeding the limitations of that driver. For example, if I measure my tweeter at ear-piercing volumes (which I have done) down to 1600Hz and see no significant distortion, it makes absolutely no difference that I'm playing from 1600Hz on up instead of 2000Hz on up. So long as the driver is operating in a comfortable range, there's nothing wrong with it. The beauty of having a measurement system is being able to know exactly where that distortion exists and being able to set your crossover points around that to avoid it completely. The beauty of using home theater driver is that most of the time, someone has already taken those measurements and you have more than just T/S parameters and a frequency response chart to work with. 

Here's the mid I was talking about earlier:
Tang Band W4-1337SD 4" Titanium Driver 264-848

Much bigger driver than the one you're using though. Here's what Zaph had to say about it:



> This is a very wide bandwith driver that could work as a small woofer, a dedicated midrange or even a full range driver provided a filter is used to tame the top end. This driver's breakup node above 10kHz does not propagate as harmonic distortion lower in frequency, meaning you can cross it over as high as you want. Harmonic distortion is merely average, but the smoothness of the response curve is class leading - a fair trade to many. This is a titanium cone, but it exhibits very "non-metal" behaviour due to the thin, light cone with exponential profile. Generally good value and consistency. It has a underhung voice coil that is vented under the spider, a cast frame and great build quality all around.


Here's a driver that I'm using on my latest home theater design, which I will use as an example for some of what I've been saying here. 

Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer 264-1062

Looks like cheap junk, right? Poly cone, poly frame, standard motor. Nothing special. You might even say I bought it at radio shack and it's a piece of garbage, right? Not quite. What if I wanted to use it as a mid from 600Hz on up to 5,000Hz? Well, let's take a look...

First, we see an incredibly flat frequency response in that range









But, that's nothing special. How does harmonic distortion look?









Well, we look at 3rd order harmonic as that's the most offensive to the ears, and what do we see? We see Revelator-like harmonic distortion in that passband. What you are looking at is a cheap poly cone in a poly frame and an ugly flange that will have to get rear-mounted with a roundover cut out for it, showing up some absolutely incredible measurements, and on top of that, people are reporting it truly does sound incredible as a mid. Using two to increase sensitivity and reduce impedance, it's one **** of a driver.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Looks like the off-axis response is indeed good. I saw the manual for the driver first, then checked the price. At $500+ a set, I would sure hope so!!!
> 
> That speaker will not play full range *well*. Trust me on that one. This is another one of those areas where you need to try it to know what I'm talking about. Many full-range drivers will play all the way up to 20khz without any issues. Looking at their frequency response, everything looks magnificent, but once you have a listen, you realize why nobody builds *good *speakers with them or similar drivers without a tweeter. They will play highs, but the highs will sound strained. They will sound mudded. They will lack that nice airy and spacious sound, and harmonic distortion will be high. It's not just about frequency response. You can't take a very light and articulate silk dome and replace it with a paper/fiber cone and expect it to sound anywhere near similar or detailed.
> 
> ...





You are falling prey to what would appear to be logical rules in speaker placement.
The human ear cannot accurately localize sound on the vertical plane for the most part. For localization to occur, frequencies must be at least 7000hz, and even then head tilting etc may still be required and is dependent on the shape of the individuals ear.

With the human ear being at the same height on your head, the brain relies on variances in time and intensity to determine the origin of sound. It is much more dire to achieve the widest placement of drivers, as the brain is much more sensitive to variances along the horizontal plane.

People have been building stellar setup's for years with mids and woofers in their kick panels. I am not one of them, but it can be done.
Like I said in my original post - my crossovers are purely guesses here. 

In addition to this, I will be listening to stereo recording. In a stereo recording the only method of sound placement is through panning. There is no way to convey height. The brain will create the illusion of height through variances in EQ with can simply be recreated if need be.




To touch back on the L3SE - Yes they can play up to 18 and even 20khz on their own. However I am not going to do it. I am already planning on using a tweeter as you know for the reasons you listed. When I mentioned using them on their own, it is when you suggested to scrap the mid altogether. I would scrap the tweeter before the mid.
This however is a moot point, as I am not scrapping anything.

Also, I have my days where I like to blast my music, and driver limitations to come in to play necessitating a reduced bandwidth being played - well maybe not necessitated, but benefited from.


With regards to the door, I'm assuming you have listened at some point to the same driver in a stock, and then sealed and deadened door?
I can throw 300watts into each woofer. Mid-bass may still be lacking if the enclosure is shitty. If the enclosure is done right you don't need anywhere near that power.
This is what I meant when I said to maximize the power. You wouldn't put your sub in a leaky, rattling box would you? As long as their is sufficient volume in the door for the driver to behave as if it is infinite baffle (as 9/10 drivers are of this size), then it serves well to ensure the door is sealed and deadened.



so to conclude!

- a tweeter will be used in stock location
- vertical plane localization is very difficult
- my listening tendencies warrant smaller chunks of bandwidth
- doors will be sealed and deadened
- I will NOT be placing velcro pods on my dash haha


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> You are falling prey to what would appear to be logical rules in speaker placement.
> The human ear cannot accurately localize sound on the vertical plane for the most part. For localization to occur, frequencies must be at least 7000hz, and even then head tilting etc may still be required and is dependent on the shape of the individuals ear.
> 
> With the human ear being at the same height on your head, the brain relies on variances in time and intensity to determine the origin of sound. It is much more dire to achieve the widest placement of drivers, as the brain is much more sensitive to variances along the horizontal plane.
> ...


With regard to vertical plane localization, suit yourself. It's your car and you asked for suggestions. I've played with the tweeter crossover point plenty of times and the lower I can get it, the better the sound stage turns out. Otherwise, I would never even bother playing my tweeters as low as I do. It doesn't make as much of a difference at high volumes, but it does at lower and moderate volumes.

No, your mids will not play up to 18 or 20khz. They will reproduce test tones that high, but will not sound good at all. Sure, it's a moot point, but at least be realistic about it. I've built and worked with enough full range drivers to know exactly why you always need a tweeter no matter how good your mid is or claims to be.

"Sealing" your doors will not improve power handling the slightest bit. You need to go back to the basics of why we put a driver in an enclosure to begin with. The airspace in the door is far too large to create any consequential compliance, and you don't need to seal the door in order to block rear waves from entering the cabin. Your main issue will be the window seals, drain holes, and the internal door latch, where plenty of air will pass through. It is pointless to completely seal the door. I'm saying this because there are options out there that you can use to *cover* your doors that will create a sufficient sound barrier.

You aren't understanding my point on crossovers. If I can measure distortion while playing frequencies at the loudest volumes my ears can tolerate, then I can choose a crossover point around those distortion readings and never have that issue. If you are out of that range, there is no benefit to be had. I'm telling you this because you would benefit from your own RTA setup not only for EQ tuning, but also for crossover tuning. If I was in your place, I'd cross that tweeter as low as it can go under the loudest volumes you will ever listen. There is absolutely zero harm in that and nothing to gain from not utilizing the full potential of that tweeter. 

You cannot throw 300w into each woofer. I dare you to try. Let me know how hard they bottom out and distory. I can barely throw 300W into my small sealed IDQ15. In the doors, your power handling ability will not consequentially change. What will change is how much midbass you can produce at a given volume and how much excursion will be required to produce that output. On that note, you will likely find that your 65hz crossover is far too low to play music at higher volumes. At the volumes I listen, I haven't been able to cross lower than 80hz with an 8th order BW. Keep in mind, I'm explaining this all so you know your options. If you think you absolutely need to seal doors, you will ignore fine products like SDS MLV and CCF sheets, which are attached to the doors with extremely strong velcro strips. They do not create an airtight seal to the door that will hold pressure, but they are an extremely effective sound barrier. 

As always, take this as a discussion, not an argument, and consider the experiencd I'm bringing to the table that may help you.





Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## thormxkid (Nov 19, 2012)

my thought would be just stick the tweeter and mids up in the a pillar. midbass in stock location, seal doors and lots of deadening. once doors are sealed there is a huge diffidence in midbass output. 

you cant hear where midbass is localized anyways. for the most part cross over settings depending.

for tweets and mids try to aim towards the center of your headliner to make time aliment easier.

i used rammat for deadener when i did my car. seemed to work good.RAAMaudio - Automotive sound deadening products

you seem to know what your doing. so more progress pics, less pushing products upon this guy. haha


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> With regard to vertical plane localization, suit yourself. It's your car and you asked for suggestions. I've played with the tweeter crossover point plenty of times and the lower I can get it, the better the sound stage turns out. Otherwise, I would never even bother playing my tweeters as low as I do. It doesn't make as much of a difference at high volumes, but it does at lower and moderate volumes.
> 
> No, your mids will not play up to 18 or 20khz. They will reproduce test tones that high, but will not sound good at all. Sure, it's a moot point, but at least be realistic about it. I've built and worked with enough full range drivers to know exactly why you always need a tweeter no matter how good your mid is or claims to be.
> 
> ...


I could be wrong here, but I can sense you getting a little hostile because I'm disagreeing on some topics and debating others. Don't. I understand you have experience. I have a little myself. 
and I don't want you to think i'm just brushing off your suggestions. I'm thinking about them all and will play around with them when the time comes.
Neither of our ways are the only method to achieve our goals.


With the localization thing. When I was running a two way front stage, I found the same thing. I ran my tweeters at 1600-2000. It simply allowed for a better sound stage it seemed.
When I went three way this effect changed.


Did you happen to read up on what I'm talking about with regards to vertical localization?



I agreed that it isn't ideal to use those mids on their own full range, and I agreed for the same reasons as you why I will not be. But you are 100% wrong saying they will not play that high. You didn't even know what they were that start off. Even in my last build i've experience first hand what these drivers do, and on-axis they do it just fine.

[email protected]

Scott Buwalda is the owner and designer of the company and one of the smartest guys in the car audio game. I encourage you to ask him about them.
I would refer you to countless other installs and tests with these drivers, but I don't think we are allowed to promote other forums here? If I'm wrong, I will gladly do so.

Actually for some fun reading, check out his recent build. His tweeterless infinity G35 posted the higest SQ scores in north america. (IASCA confirmed) 
He was using the exact same driver from 250hz and up.



We've had a few posts here and typed a lot, but I'm pretty sure I never said anything about improving power handling. That isn't remotely related to what sealing and deadening would do. A drivers power handling will come down to how much heat it can dissipate and its mechanical limits. (i think i said maximize the power being put in)
lol, I was speaking figuratively with regards to the 300watts. 

Its like if you have a thousand HP and little tiny tires. If you can't transfer that energy, why have the big engine?
If you are going to have a leaky door that is flexing, resonating, vibrating, causing cancellation...why have a big mid?

"What will change is how much midbass you can produce at a given volume and how much excursion will be required to produce that output"

This is along the lines of what I'm saying.

(and you'd be amazed how stout the ML 165 drivers are. They handle 63hz no problem. Again, crossover points may wildly vary in a new install. this is just my past experience)


When did I say I'm ignoring sounddeadenershowdown products?
and I will be utilizing and RTA in the tuning process. Which is still a ways away.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

thormxkid said:


> my thought would be just stick the tweeter and mids up in the a pillar. midbass in stock location, seal doors and lots of deadening. once doors are sealed there is a huge diffidence in midbass output.
> 
> you cant hear where midbass is localized anyways. for the most part cross over settings depending.
> 
> ...



This would be the ideal setup. This is exactly how I had my last install.
The only reason i'm shying away from an A-pillar install is my goal of a stealth install as much as possible (i know its not fully possible ), and I don't want to cut into the car and possible interfere with airbag operation.

I'm going to do everything else you suggested though!


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

The mention of the hybrid G35 got me thinking.

Nobody Beats Hybrid

I could always do a sail panel install.
Not exactly stealth, but it would minimize alterations to the vehicle.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> I could be wrong here, but I can sense you getting a little hostile because I'm disagreeing on some topics and debating others. Don't. I understand you have experience. I have a little myself.
> and I don't want you to think i'm just brushing off your suggestions. I'm thinking about them all and will play around with them when the time comes.
> Neither of our ways are the only method to achieve our goals.
> 
> ...


Not getting hostile at all. Just having a...spirited discussion.

As for those drivers, I stand by my statement. I have never heard a full range driver 3" or larger that had what I would consider acceptable highs, and there are many, many reasons for that. Like I said before, you really need some home theater speaker design experience to really know what I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with off-axis response and everything to do with the quality of sound. It's why we stopped using paper cone tweeters 30 years ago. Maybe some people can tolerate the compromise, but if you're spending that much money, just do it the right way from the start.

You can promote other products, but they cannot come here and advertise. I promote SDS products because I have yet to use anything better and the guy has spent the last several years benchmarking deadeners and door treatment materials before designing his own, as his website's name would suggest. I have no affiliation with Don or SDS though.

I've known about localization. It's not a new topic to me. 

You said maximing power, so I assumed it was regarding sealing. Not sure what other aspect of door treatment would maximize power, and you did say power; not output.

63Hz will be difficult to reach at the output levels you seem to want and at that point, excursion and cone area will limit you. At the end of the day, it's still a 6.5" driver. A good one, but still 6.5". The Silver Flutes I use have a respectable xmax and xlim and a very strong motor, but at high volumes, I cannot get an authoritative tom tom snap or kick drum punch to the chest without crossing where I am now. I want to feel all of my drum beats and with these drivers, I can do that.

I didn't say you are ignoring those products, but if you were dead set on creating an airtight seal, those products won't achieve that purpose. I was just explaining why I don't believe an airtight seal is necessary.

Do you already have the RTA setup, or are you looking to purchase one?

Something to keep in mind is that my wording may come off as overly strong and formal, but that's just the way I talk. I wouldn't be moderator if I talked to people with hostility. 

My way is not the only way to do things and I know that for a fact. I just hope that the experience and knowledge I have may be of some use to you.

Cheers!

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

off topic here, but any car and audio enthusiast will love this build.

Scott Buwalda's Hybrid Silvia S14.5 (260SX) Spec. GT-R

ridiculously nice Nissan Silvia w/ a Skyline GT-R engine and complete audio install.
this and the G35 I mentioned earlier - Best of the best


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Just pulled out a couple drivers to look at sizing and thought I'd share a couple of pics. Please excuse the dust 




























The L3SE's are definitely small enough for a sail install, so I'm seriously contemplating that route.


Also, looking at the ML 165, I forgot how much of a tank each of these drivers are. 

I haven't had my doors off yet, but what is the mounting depth like in the car?
Something may have to be rigged up for clearance.



It has come to my attention that the scosche mounting kits only allow for double din applications. Which leaves me with Metra and their stock silver kit. So one more decision checked off.


I pick up the two IDMax 12's later this week, so I'll be sure to post pictures of them. They will be replacing my single 10" IDMax.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

just picked up the subs for the install.

as noted, i'm going to be using two 12" IDMax v.3 d4 subs.

here are some pics of the subs themselves, and a couple with them sitting next to the woofers and mids being used.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> View attachment 9452
> View attachment 9453
> View attachment 9454
> View attachment 9455
> ...


Such awesome subs!

On an alternate note, have you heard anything about their V4 lineup?


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

They've had the 'coming soon' on their site for a while now.

I'm interested to see what they will be like since the company has new owners now and -correct me if i'm wrong- will be manufactured overseas.

They company was in shambles for a little bit there when the original designer/owner of their subs left.

I have heard for the longest time that the v4 line-up will include a 15" sub, which I'd be very interested in seeing.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> They've had the 'coming soon' on their site for a while now.
> 
> I'm interested to see what they will be like since the company has new owners now and -correct me if i'm wrong- will be manufactured overseas.
> 
> ...


I kept up to date on that as I've been a big fan of ID for a while. My understanding was that Powerbass was a financing partner in their company with the agreement that the owners would be able to buy back their share after the company grew. Turns out Powerbass didn't want to give up their share and negotiations just went downhill. Matt Borgardt and Eric Stevens if I remember correctly were the lead engineer and founder of the company. They left the company, but I'm not sure what they're doing now. I heard some rumor they were going to get into home theater, but who knows. 

Just about everything is manufactured overseas. I had an issue with my IDMax10 due to assembly of the cone. Apparently some of it is manufactured overseas, but assembled here in the US. I have no reason to believe that the V4 IDQ and IDMax subs will be any different. Their support has always been excellent so I can't complain. 

I saw the whole situation go down over on DIYMA and was asking Eric questions for a while. Matt started up a new forum called backyardinstallers.com shortly afterward, but that went downhill, and seems to be back up now but with very little traffic.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Sorry about the lack of updates here. Everything was delayed a little bit with the holidays being hectic and mulling over the install details.

A couple big decisions.

1. I have decided to have this done professionally for a few of reasons.
a. I do not have a heated garage, and it is January in Canada.

b. I simply do not have a desire right now to complete the install. I've installed all of my past systems myself - time for a change.

c. Peace of mind - if something breaks, its not on me haha

2. After thinking it over, the mids will be installed in custom enclosures in the sail panel. They will be vented into the doors. Basically I am going to have an exact copy of the pictures seen below (the driver pictured is the same that I'm using.) This placement will allow minimal alteration, no loss in visibility, and optimal placement for stage height and width.
























All parts were just ordered yesterday (harness, wiring, breakers, etc)

The install is booked for February 8 until completion.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> Sorry about the lack of updates here. Everything was delayed a little bit with the holidays being hectic and mulling over the install details.
> 
> A couple big decisions.
> 
> ...


Can't wait to see the results. 

One thing to note: there will be no purpose in venting the mids into the doors. You don't need airspace with those drivers as you won't be playing them low enough. Instead, create a sealed chamber and stuff it with acoustic foam. You'll probably only take those down to 600-800hz or so and let your door speakers take care of everything below that.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Can't wait to see the results.
> 
> One thing to note: there will be no purpose in venting the mids into the doors. You don't need airspace with those drivers as you won't be playing them low enough. Instead, create a sealed chamber and stuff it with acoustic foam. You'll probably only take those down to 600-800hz or so and let your door speakers take care of everything below that.



If I were only going to 600-800 you would absolutely be right, and I would definitely just keep it sealed.

These will be playing down to 315hz daily. They do it no problem whatsoever, and louder than I need. They will be run lower than that if I decide to compete.

Our previous conversation actually played a role in me deciding this placement. I was toying with the idea of an enclosure in the door storage area, but with an install like this, I'm not going to half-ass it with the most important driver in setup.
So thank you for making me rethink that!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> If I were only going to 600-800 you would absolutely be right, and I would definitely just keep it sealed.
> 
> These will be playing down to 315hz daily. They do it no problem whatsoever, and louder than I need. They will be run lower than that if I decide to compete.
> 
> ...


I personally wouldn't see a purpose to increasing enclosure size unless I was playing below 200hz. If you do vent this into the door, I would use a generous amount of acoustic material wherever possible. 

I'm glad you went with this placement instead of what you had previously considered. This will vastly improve your sound stage.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

so it begins!!

just don't look to closely, there is an unfortunate banner from a past era lol


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

some more pics!!

As you can see, the two A900's fit perfectly in the trunk cavity. The foam holder behind the flap that houses the inflator kit is going to be removed, and the opening slot is a perfect fit for the small amp powering my shaker.

By doing this install I am barely losing any flat trunk space. Yes there is going to be a box, but the ECO's cavity will not be flush. Making the entire front a flat usable trunk.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

not a whole lot of progress to see today, but I figured I'll post whatever pictures I have so people can see behind the panelling.Haven't removed it yet, but the thoughts are that my mic will be installed in the rear view mirror casing seen in the pic.Wiring will be near completed today. Box, dampening, woofers, headunit, and amps will be completed on monday. The mid range enclosures will be completed by wednesday.so lots of more interesting pics to come!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Great progress. Keep the pictures coming!


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## TheMaterial (Sep 5, 2012)

really looking to see how this all turns out when its done!


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## Mick (Dec 31, 2011)

Very nice. I like the door pods for the tweeters, are they available for the Cruze or custom?

Also that dude's Nissan build is insane.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Mick said:


> Very nice. I like the door pods for the tweeters, are they available for the Cruze or custom?
> 
> Also that dude's Nissan build is insane.



my tweeters are being installed in the factory location behind the a-pillar panelling.

if you are referring to the pods for the 3" mids in the sail panels, they are custom made in the photos shown (scott buwaldas infinity g35), and will also be custom made in my cruze.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I didn't have time to take a lot of pictures, but here are a few more of the box.

I did decide on some last minute changes. Mainly that I am not having a wall made in the trunk. I had originally planned for a wall to be made around the sub box (for aesthetic reasons and to hide an amp).

Then I thought...i'm not competing, i very rarely open it up to show anyone, and its just more weight.
So, the two class D amps are simply going to be mounted beneath the sub box. There is adequate spacing for ventilation.

The carpeted insert pictured is the cover for the cavity in the trunk of the ECO.

There was a delay in wiring arriving and I need to car tomorrow. So the install will be finished by Wednesday night.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

sail panels in progress!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Box looks nice. No flush mount though?

What fabric was used?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Box looks nice. No flush mount though?
> 
> What fabric was used?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App


Yea, box turned out like a wanted. Simple and clean. To be honest, i didn't even think of having flush mounted.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> Yea, box turned out like a wanted. Simple and clean. To be honest, i didn't even think of having flush mounted.


I can't build a box without a flush mount these days. It significantly strengthens the baffle, protects the subwoofers a tad better from items in the trunk, and makes for a much cleaner look.

Did your builder at least use a double thick baffle to mount the subs? Those IDMax subs pack a lot of punch.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I can't build a box without a flush mount these days. It significantly strengthens the baffle, protects the subwoofers a tad better from items in the trunk, and makes for a much cleaner look.
> 
> Did your builder at least use a double thick baffle to mount the subs? Those IDMax subs pack a lot of punch.



As far as I know yes. 

I wasn't there for the full build. I'll double check tomorrow.


Still have a bit of work to go.
The sails need completed. (they obviously aren't finished in that pic)

headunit installed, battery enclosure built (i'm hoping it fits in the small slot on the right rear of the trunk), and all front drivers installed.

I'll have more pictures tomorrow!


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

doors getting a little treatment
the mid isn't actually mounted in that housing, so it isn't quite centered, but you guys get the idea


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

also, in my previous post with the box pictures, I said that the flat carpeted piece was the cover for the amps. That is actually the floor insert for the cavity that they will be mounted to (the eco cavity is not flat). It will also serve to hide wiring and make them aesthetically pleasing.

the actual cover has not been cut yet.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

i'm really surprised with how much dynamat i had. anything that says dynamat is from my last build. 

the tweeters aren't actually wired yet (they will be cleaned up from the pic), but thankfully no modification was needed at all. they fit perfectly


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

battery fits perfectly. it will be encased when its all said and done.

the other is a mockup of the amp placement. the bottom two amps are to be covered to make the floor flush. 
the top two amps will lay directly beneath the sub box.

fans will be used where needed.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

here is a shot of the amp cover and you can just see the battery enclosure on the right. the trunk is perfectly flush with the covering now.











some unfortunate but necessary cuts to run wires 













a shot of the trunk looking in from the back seats.











here are a few progress pictures of the pods for the L3SE's





























isolator to be in-line between front and rear batteries.













and just a shot of the car being used! (not sure why the badge and licence plate turned out yellowish. badge is black, plate has a smoke covering on it.)












I haven't taken pictures yet, but the tweeters are in, the woofers are in, the shaker is in.amps, headunit, bluetooth, and power wire will be in tomorrow.then its just some vacuuming/cleaning etc, and on to the fun part - tuning!!


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

here is another shot of the battery enclosure.


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## Mick (Dec 31, 2011)

I thought those "tweeters" looked massive lol. I've never seem mids up that high.

Can't see your last pics on app or browser from my phone.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

lol, ya the tweeters are still in stock location in the A-pillars.

i still have woofers in the doors in the stock location remember.

mids are commonly installed in the sail panel/a-pillar region in higher end installs. (generally sq oriented)



i'm not sure which pics aren't showing up. they are displaying fine on my browser?


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## grs1961 (Oct 23, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> lol, ya the tweeters are still in stock location in the A-pillars.
> 
> i still have woofers in the doors in the stock location remember.
> 
> ...


No pictures are displaying - NFI what has gone wrong, did you click on the "insert Image" icon to upload them? Did you upload them as files or URIs?


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

the pictures are showing up just fine in my browser.

however - when I try to 'manage attachments', the pictures are not there and it it is showing that I have used up my 10mb of uploading.

....if this is the case, thats just foolish.

**xtreme, what am I doing wrong here?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> the pictures are showing up just fine in my browser.
> 
> however - when I try to 'manage attachments', the pictures are not there and it it is showing that I have used up my 10mb of uploading.
> 
> ...


You're hotlinking to DIYMA attachments. Those who are not logged into DIYMA cannot see them. I would very heavily recommend starting up an imageshack or photobucket account for this type of thing. I believe dropbox might work as well. Imageshack is very simple and works well.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

hows that everyone? anyone not seeing the pics still?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> hows that everyone? anyone not seeing the pics still?


Much better! Pictures are looking good!


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

still have some work to do....
-cleaning up amp wiring
-steering wheel controls
-utilizing stock usb connection in console for ipod
-a whole lot of vacuum time and shining
-grilles

in the meantime, here are some more pictures.



here is a shot of what the finished trunk looks like.
the battery is hidden in the enclosure seen in the bottom right.
two amps are mounted beneath the sub enclosure.
the other two beneath the false floor which allows for a flat trunk.










just the uncovered battery.
1/0 gauge main run and grounds.
4 gauge to each amp.
breaker











the two hidden amps underneath the subs
the end caps are not on yet since I haven't completed any tuning, so it will be cleaned up one that happens.










this is the shaker underneath the drivers front seat. 
it is completely hidden from view, and does not obstruct movement in any way.











a shot of the front stage.
these drivers will have grilles on them. they just haven't arrived yet.











left mid









right mid


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

just found a pic I forgot to post.

this just shows the first of two false floors.

it provides the PRS-A900 's a flat mounting surface and a the ability to hide the RCA's.
its obviously not completed - those wires will be cleaned up, and the opening closed off.

the full trunk finished shot i posted earlier shows what this looks like with the second of two floors on.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

some more progress pics.

the pods are 90% done. just a little touch up is needed, and the grilles are still enroute.

have the stock screen and the steering wheel controls hooked up now.
the harness indeed retains full function of the stock info screen in addition to controlling my P99RS



















Thank you GM! The usb connection in the console is a simple USB at the other end as well. So the P99RS simply plugged straight into the stock wiring. Most cars are not like this.










Finished trunk!










finished amps beneath the false floor


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Well some good and bad news.

the bad news = my yellowtop is dead. It gave me 7 years of trouble free use in demanding applications. 

the good news = I did things right and installed a battery isolator. Without one, the yellowtop not holding its charge would have discharged my starting battery as they levelled out. This is one main reason why these are needed in a dual battery setup!
Here is a better picture of the isolator









A shot of the engine bay wiring including the isolator. (not much to see as its all covered in loom)











Also, it isn't visible at all unless you stick you head in the actual trunk and look around the box, but the inflation kit sits nicely in the slot seen.
A couple of 'L' brackets keep the box firmly in place as well.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Just did some colour matching between the headunit and cluster / info screen.
Its near perfect colour match in person.

















Still waiting on the grills for the pods to arrive.
A couple of rattles to work out, but very minor thankfully.


*please excuse the filthy floormats. They are next to impossible to keep clean when its 3 degrees and everything is melting outside *


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

For those that are possibly thinking of using the harness from metra, apparently you lose the ability to dim your cluster and info screen at night.
Not a big deal for me, but still something to note.


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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

Looks good! i'm glad you decided to put the L3s on axis as scott designed them to be. I wonder how it will sound if you play the mids up to 18k and turn the tweets waay down or turned off 

I use HAT speakers myself and am strongly considering going tweeterless and using the same L3s you're using with my imagine woofers, or getting L6s. I also installed those same milles you own into my buddies jetta a few weeks ago (passive with only 140w/channel) and they sound awesome too. I bet your car sounds amazing! 

The P99 was also a great choice. i'm jealous!


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> Looks good! i'm glad you decided to put the L3s on axis as scott designed them to be. I wonder how it will sound if you play the mids up to 18k and turn the tweets waay down or turned off
> 
> I use HAT speakers myself and am strongly considering going tweeterless and using the same L3s you're using with my imagine woofers, or getting L6s. I also installed those same milles you own into my buddies jetta a few weeks ago (passive with only 140w/channel) and they sound awesome too. I bet your car sounds amazing!
> 
> The P99 was also a great choice. i'm jealous!



I like your taste in gear!

Yes the L3SE is just fine without a tweeter, but still isn't quite as good as when paired with one.
Many may not notice a difference actually. Personally I can still hear up to 18khz and do notice.

The car is starting to sound amazing. Tuning is 90% there. That last 10% takes a while to dial in nicely.
Imaging is spectacular.
Soundstage is right to the boundaries of the dash.
The cruze does present some tuning challenges though. There are some serious dead spots and boosts.
63hz and 2.5khz are the most prominent valley and hump.

all part of the fun though!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Believe me, no matter how great a manufacturer claims their "full range" mid is, it will not sound the same without a tweeter, and any experienced audiophile will not only know the difference, but will be sickened by it. Full range drivers simply do not sound the same. You can tell that the top end sounds strained, and that's one of the most sensitive areas to your ears. Even if all you'll do is buy a Dayton ND20FA (an excellent high crossover point 3/4" tweeter) and run it from 4khz on up, it will make all the difference.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> I like your taste in gear!
> 
> Yes the L3SE is just fine without a tweeter, but still isn't quite as good as when paired with one.
> Many may not notice a difference actually. Personally I can still hear up to 18khz and do notice.
> ...


The existence of the anomalies of the car itself are why I so strongly stressed that people consider using the miniDSP. With a parametric EQ that allows you to specify not only the Q of your equalizer band (of which there are 18) but also the specific frequency and amplitude, you really have the power to overcome the car's particularities. The Cruze in fact has a lot of energy beamed around 2.5khz-4khz that causes a world of listening fatigue. Your valley at 63hz might be more due to your crossover points and your driver phase than anything you can EQ.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Believe me, no matter how great a manufacturer claims their "full range" mid is, it will not sound the same without a tweeter, and any experienced audiophile will not only know the difference, but will be sickened by it. Full range drivers simply do not sound the same. You can tell that the top end sounds strained, and that's one of the most sensitive areas to your ears. Even if all you'll do is buy a Dayton ND20FA (an excellent high crossover point 3/4" tweeter) and run it from 4khz on up, it will make all the difference.


Haha, while I agree for the most part, I wouldn't say audiophiles would be 'sickened by it' lol. That's a little harsh. Fantastic results have been proven with the L3SE's many times over in very high end installs.

As I said though, I personally still prefer a tweeter. As great as the results can be, I find the addition of a tweeter will make it just that much better.



XtremeRevolution said:


> The existence of the anomalies of the car itself are why I so strongly stressed that people consider using the miniDSP. With a parametric EQ that allows you to specify not only the Q of your equalizer band (of which there are 18) but also the specific frequency and amplitude, you really have the power to overcome the car's particularities. The Cruze in fact has a lot of energy beamed around 2.5khz-4khz that causes a world of listening fatigue. Your valley at 63hz might be more due to your crossover points and your driver phase than anything you can EQ.


From my tuning so far that is exactly the case. 2khz-just below 4khz requires a fair bit of taming. 
The 63hz is most likely a crossover issue. Just gotta spend some time working out the bugs.

I know exactly what the DSP does, and still firmly stand behind my reasoning for not using them that I started to get into at the beginning of this thread.

From what I have accomplished so far, there is not going to be any issue whatsover achieving audio bliss with the DSP capabilities of the P99.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

For anyone wondering, the metra harness does indeed retain factory bluetooth.

So turns out I actually have a redundant system haha.
I have my aftermarket bluetooth and my stock one installed.


Also, this could just be me, but before this was installed I do not remember a temperature being displayed on the info screen when adjusting the heat.

Now when turning the heat/cold dial it will say on the info screen 
...lo...16-19degrees in 1 degree increments...0.5degree increments up to 24degress...then 1degree increments up to 29 degrees...hi

Did I just miss this before?


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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

Highest scoring car ever did it without tweeters. good enough for me


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> Highest scoring car ever did it without tweeters. good enough for me


Frankly, I wouldn't put any weight at all into how people get scored in competitions. There's a reason I don't compete, and I guarantee you it's not because my car doesn't sound good enough. The judging is far too heavily geared toward quality of install. ****, they would prefer to see layers upon layers of Dynamat instead of a proper product. It's more about the install and the appearance than it is about the sound quality. Last I checked, judges don't take harmonic distortion frequency response measurements of cars as part of their scoring process. I do, however, when choosing my crossover points and slopes, and I review those numbers when choosing my components. 

Take it from a guy who has used a variety of full range drivers in his time designing and building home theater speakers; you're better off with a tweeter. When you put so much work, time, and money into a car audio install, it blows my mind why you'd choose not to use a tweeter when it is far more suitable for high frequency response reproduction. An extra $33 and a couple of small pods isn't exactly cost-prohibitive.


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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

To the onterrible, while tuning do you think you'll stick with your original crossover points,or will you consider letting the mids play much much higher and just have the tweeters fill in the missing bands, anywhere from 15k-18k and up?

really curious, from someone in your position who is capable of doing this, to see just how necesary the tweeters are, and at what xover points are best between the mid and tweeter. I know from experience those tweeters play really well down to about 2k, and the mids are supposed to play up to 18k and well, look at _the_ G35 scotty built. I'm really curious what x-over points you find work the best between the mid and the tweeter.

do you think you'll have any issues with the mids being on axis (as they should) and the tweeters being off axis in the stock location? most installs i've seen have had the mids and tweets on axis together in the same pod, and while i'm always up for what sounds best, it seems like it may have negative effects. maybe XR can chime in on this part


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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

also, the amp cover, is that the chevy cover or something custom?


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I have them crossed at 8000hz right now and the imaging and staging is fantastic.

The main thing is to get a crossover point outside of the human voice which generally extends up to 6000hz. I want to minimize phasing issues and cancellation in the crossover overlaps.
I could extend the mids up to 15khz, but while they do it very well, I still find the tweeters do it just slightly better. I have them, so I'm utilizing the drivers where they excel best.


Also, these drivers aren't perfectly on axis. They are no more than 15 degrees off axis though.
In my last setup I ran the exact same front stage but with the tweeters and mids perfectly on axis in the a-pillars.


So I have experience either way.


The only real issue with the tweeters in the stock location would be reflections making tuning more difficult. This would be minimized if the were on axis. Not having any issues though.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> also, the amp cover, is that the chevy cover or something custom?



which cover are you referring to?

In the eco trunk cavity, there is a floor insert that that amps are sitting on and wire run beneath. Then on top of the amps a false floor was made to cover them and create a flush trunk.

It is all custom.


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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

I have an ECO as well and my polk 5 channel is sitting in the hole. i don't have a cover, but i know chevy sells one. yours looks good, if it was from the dealer i'd buy it. i'll probably just make one when i get my amp situation figured out


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> To the onterrible, while tuning do you think you'll stick with your original crossover points,or will you consider letting the mids play much much higher and just have the tweeters fill in the missing bands, anywhere from 15k-18k and up?
> 
> really curious, from someone in your position who is capable of doing this, to see just how necesary the tweeters are, and at what xover points are best between the mid and tweeter. I know from experience those tweeters play really well down to about 2k, and the mids are supposed to play up to 18k and well, look at _the_ G35 scotty built. I'm really curious what x-over points you find work the best between the mid and the tweeter.
> 
> do you think you'll have any issues with the mids being on axis (as they should) and the tweeters being off axis in the stock location? most installs i've seen have had the mids and tweets on axis together in the same pod, and while i'm always up for what sounds best, it seems like it may have negative effects. maybe XR can chime in on this part


Generally speaking, the higher the frequency, the more important it is that the frequency is on-axis, which is why mids and tweets are on-axis together. The high and steep crossover points used in modern DSPs of any kind make it so that cancellation between the tweeter and midwoofer is not a real issue. In my car, I have the tweeters in the original pillars with some customized pods. I did this as stealth was more of a priority to me than absolute sound. It's a compromise I was forced to make, as I often park my car in downtown Chicago and the last thing I need is someone looking inside and knowing there's something worth stealing. 

This alignment is far less than ideal, but there were no other options given my constraints. 



jstoner22 said:


> I have them crossed at 8000hz right now and the imaging and staging is fantastic.
> 
> The main thing is to get a crossover point outside of the human voice which generally extends up to 6000hz. I want to minimize phasing issues and cancellation in the crossover overlaps.
> I could extend the mids up to 15khz, but while they do it very well, I still find the tweeters do it just slightly better. I have them, so I'm utilizing the drivers where they excel best.
> ...


The reflections would still be there if the tweeters would be on-axis. The only difference is that the very top end would be easier to tune, and the reflections would be different. You say you're not having any issues, but have you measured the car yet?

Let me give you an example. My buddy thought this sounded absolutely amazing, but something wasn't quite right to my ears. 










Check out that little peak at 4100hz. Perhaps I'm a perfectionist, but after voicing home theater speakers and tuning the few cars that I have, things like this really bother me without even having to measure them. 

As for cancellation in the crossover region, that's basically what I deal with every time I design a home theater speaker. I have a few designs I've had in progress for a while, and I will tell you that phase alignment is CRUCIAL to how a home theater speaker sounds. The problem is that your crossover point and the reflections you run into make it worthwhile to try out different options to see how they react, even if you do cut into a vocal range. 

The reason why I always like to use a tweeter is because I don't mind a bit of added complexity to ensure the best sound that I can get within my constraints. The lower moving mass and higher motor strength to moving mass ratio on a tweeter makes it far more suitable for high frequency reproduction. Keep in mind, I'm listening to a pair of Fountek NeoCd 3.0 tweeters and Tang Band titanium mids as I'm typing this, so my reference level is VERY high. Boy do I wish I could use those tweeters in my car, but that 5" faceplate wouldn't fit very well in the Cruze.

The biggest reason I don't like using a mid of any kind without a tweeter is due to beaming. They become extremely sensitive to off-axis response the higher you go in frequency. Your mid basically turns into a mag-lite flashlight with a strong focus point that, at frequencies above 10k, is affected by mere inches. 



1990tsi said:


> I have an ECO as well and my polk 5 channel is sitting in the hole. i don't have a cover, but i know chevy sells one. yours looks good, if it was from the dealer i'd buy it. i'll probably just make one when i get my amp situation figured out


You can get the cover from gmpartsdirect.com for somewhere around $40. I bought one and used it as a template to build the baffle of a sub box. That one's still in progress though...


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> The reflections would still be there if the tweeters would be on-axis. The only difference is that the very top end would be easier to tune, and the reflections would be different. You say you're not having any issues, but have you measured the car yet?
> 
> 
> The reason why I always like to use a tweeter is because I don't mind a bit of added complexity to ensure the best sound that I can get within my constraints. The lower moving mass and higher motor strength to moving mass ratio on a tweeter makes it far more suitable for high frequency reproduction. Keep in mind, I'm listening to a pair of Fountek NeoCd 3.0 tweeters and Tang Band titanium mids as I'm typing this, so my reference level is VERY high. Boy do I wish I could use those tweeters in my car, but that 5" faceplate wouldn't fit very well in the Cruze.
> ...


You are right, reflections will always be there. Having them directly on axis just minimizes as much as possible making them easier to dial in a nice centre sound-stage. Having them cross-firing across the dash with increased interaction with the front window-shield just makes them slightly more difficult to dial in.
At the end of the day though, they car environment is filled with hard surfaces and reflections are unavoidable.


The beaming is one of the reasons I have continued to use a tweeter.
The L3SE actually do quite well on their own in this regard. (the phaseplug isn't just a heatsink for those that don't know. it helps minimize interaction from the higher frequencies produced at the center of the cone from those lower frequencies produced at the outer edge...leading to a reduction of 'beaming')
They still don't fully negate the need for a tweeter to my ears though.

Also, I have not measured my car yet. I have barely had time the past week to tune it by ear. When I say its 90% there, that 90% is easy to hit. Its that final 10% dialling it in that takes a lot of time.
I will eventually have it measured, but I am in no rush. I enjoy taking my time doing it by ear.


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I forgot all about these quick little clips. They are from a few months ago.

It is recorded from a cellphone, so obviously it is impossible to tell what kind of SQ is there, but you can at least see it up and running!


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Finally got the grilles on my L3SE's


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

finally got my sub grilles on!


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## BryanJam (Sep 17, 2014)

I was first drawn to a Focal speaker system that I was shown at a local stero shop, Sound Diego, while talking with the tech there in weather unbearably hot I would have bought them to start my system upgrade. They one 2013 european sound design awards so I assumed they were going to sound good. If I can't get a made in the USA system I'd rather not ship any more of my money to the mideast. Too much of it goes there already. Europeans have been known for their car stereos. In the 1980's if your car didn't have a "blaupunt" I think I spelled it wrong but it was german made sound system in your car you were second class. Since I left Sound Diego without purchasing anything, I looked around online and found two system upgrades I could buy through Crutchfield. One was an obvious easy way to get a IMO pedestrian upgrade. This was made buy kicker (made in China I believe and I could look it up but don't feel the need) it adds a Single 12" Subwoofer well concealed in the trunk and, using a pretuned pre-amp, sent signals in proper strength tone and time to each speaker in the 6 speaker stock system. This system upgrade would cost $1,249.00 It would still be using the stock speakers knocked off in mexico. I am really glad I did not buy the Piooneer (made in Japan?) upgrade either so I wouldn't be stuck with pretty much the same thing with another name on it. If somone knows better here feel free to chime in.
While I was looking up Focal from Crutchfield I found an interesting solution. It precise name escapes me... I tried looking it up right now and they apaerently sold the last one. I felt it was under powered and would lack the ground shaking bass I love. It was a 500rs somrthing or other which was part of the european sound system of the year award for 2013. They had only one left when I was looking for it. This led me further down the road to look into a place of my nephew had spoken well. Car audio heeavn (or was it Haven) in kearny mesa area. I went in there and to my suprise my nephew was there having something done to his car. Neither of us knew the other was going to be there. So anyway, this is becoming a long ramble. There they turned me onto the best I have seen. Unfortunatley it is out of my budget at the moment. The Whole system could run me ten thousand dollars. I'll be keeping an eye out for more options. What I really want is to be able to tune it myself as many ways as I'd like. The Focal 500rs something or other was able to allow me to do that but again at the price point and the power level this was more than I would like to spend. At Car Audio Haven there were options that I could go with for less but this package included a bit one, SR5 2000 watt amp 5 channels, Voce Speakers all around. Components in front and woofer in rear, with my own Subwoofers two 12" Soundstream Subwoofers and a new ported housing in the trunk. I would be able to control each and every element of the signal going to each speaker and be able to time them as I wished as well as save settings and create personalized preferences for what seat in the car you wanted the sound to be optimized. I will be saving up the credit to buy one of these systems or whatever is newest and brightest out there when one of my factory components go bad. I don't want to change the look of my interior in any way that cannot be returned to stock. If You've got deep pockets check out the AUDISON system I saw at Car Audio Haven. If you've any other thoughts feel free to share. Ohhh, and the awards FOCAL won in 2013 were won by AUDISON in 2014.


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## loganste123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Sorry, but this is not high end..


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

loganste123 said:


> Sorry, but this is not high end..


Feel free to elaborate.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Feel free to elaborate.


I am waiting for this response eepwallA:


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm glad to see my pictures showing up again!

For a while there, all of my threads were decimated by imageshack not making them available anymore.



I am curious about the recent comment stating it is not Hi-End though. 
That is perfectly fine, and I respect that. 

However, it is quite vague. Can you please elaborate? I'm genuinely curious.


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