# Complete Flex Fuel kits coming soon!



## AZ007 (Sep 26, 2014)

This is awesome. I'll have to see if I can make it work for my situation.


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## wiltedjoint (Jun 6, 2015)

What's the benefit?


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## AZ007 (Sep 26, 2014)

1. High-octane fuel for cheap

2. The possibility of making your own fuel from sugar.

3. Someday, the possibility of making your own fuel from leaves and cardboard.

4. A slight reduction in greenhouse gasses.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

AZ007 said:


> 1. High-octane fuel for cheap


This is the only real benefit, but it does save a ton of money while offering much better performance. Currently even with cheap gas prices the cheapest E85 in my area is 70 cents a gallon less than regular 87 octane E10 fuel. That's not the whole story however since octane wise its higher than any premium available, with a 94-96 minimum octane rating. Comparing to Premium gas prices, it saves $1.10 a gallon!!! Even if you MPG drops significantly, you still come out ahead when you save $15+ extra cash every tank.


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## CruzeTech (Mar 23, 2012)

I'd say 94-96 octane is a little conservative. 100-105 and even as high as 108, have been quoted. I used to have no problem running 40psi of boost on my 4G63 motors with E85. 

Huge benefit and cost savings over full race fuel. 

1. It's widely sold, at the pump. Especially in California. 

2. It's about $4-$6 a gallon cheaper than race gas.


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## Jfisher (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm assuming both cats are deleted? AFR at the tailpipe is going to be different than AFR measured via WBO2 in the downpipe.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

CruzeTech said:


> I'd say 94-96 octane is a little conservative.


Remember I said minimum octane rating. E85 can be sold as low as a E70, which is the winter blend here.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jfisher said:


> I'm assuming both cats are deleted? AFR at the tailpipe is going to be different than AFR measured via WBO2 in the downpipe.



Both cats are still installed, and AFR at the tailpipe was exactly what the ECM was commanding. I know it can be off, but we did a lot of testing and comparison, and I can assure you it's accurate.


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## Camo66 (Jun 27, 2015)

With Flex fuel, should be able to run more boost as it is a colder fuel fuel which means more performance.

Cheaper to buy fuel, more performance - equals a win, win situation.


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## CruzeTech (Mar 23, 2012)

spacedout said:


> Remember I said minimum octane rating. E85 can be sold as low as a E70, which is the winter blend here.


Ah, you did say minimum. I see that, now. It's all downhill after 40.


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## cruzinred92 (Dec 4, 2013)

How will this work with us tuned guys? Well we have to be going back and forth with trifecta to get it right or is it a kinda plug and play?


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Still have a lot to learn, when I inadvertently put E10 in my Supra, for awhile, this is all I could buy. The fuel pump, sender, fuel filter, regulator, and the injectors all had to be replaced.

Son purchased a flex fuel vehicle for E85, his cost per mile was greater than ethanol free 91 octane fuel, but not interested in drag racing, just cost per mile hauling my grandkids around. 

Since ethanol came around, the cost of diary and meat products skyrocketed, somewhere, missing the boat on this issue.


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## CruzeTech (Mar 23, 2012)

cruzinred92 said:


> How will this work with us tuned guys? Well we have to be going back and forth with trifecta to get it right or is it a kinda plug and play?


The sensor, in the picture, meters fuel and reads the fuel mixture. The tune automatically adjusts to the ethanol content. You will, however, need an updated tune to make the initial function work. Not sure how or if he's selling the kits for the Trifecta tuned guys, at first, since someone else tunes the trifecta tunes. But they will be immediately available (upon release) for the Efi Live tuned vehicles, such as myself.


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## Jfisher (Apr 21, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Both cats are still installed, and AFR at the tailpipe was exactly what the ECM was commanding. I know it can be off, but we did a lot of testing and comparison, and I can assure you it's accurate.


The sole purpose of a converter is to alter the AFR to reach the stoich ratio whether it be gasoline or E85. Unless your cats are completely defective, which I highly doubt being a newer car, the reading at the tailpipe will be different. Why go to all this effort to convert to E85 and tune from an inaccurate value?


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## MilTownSHO (Oct 9, 2013)

I had a rental Taurus with the flex fuel option. I ran one tank regular fuel and the other on E85 running down the highway. When you figured in the cost per mile, it was actually cheaper running plain old gasoline.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Jfisher said:


> The sole purpose of a converter is to alter the AFR to reach the stoich ratio whether it be gasoline or E85. Unless your cats are completely defective, which I highly doubt being a newer car, the reading at the tailpipe will be different. Why go to all this effort to convert to E85 and tune from an inaccurate value?



That's not what catalytic converters are for at all. And I've tested my same car with and without catalytic converters, I assure you, they have no effect on AFR.


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## cruzinred92 (Dec 4, 2013)

Jfisher said:


> The sole purpose of a converter is to alter the AFR to reach the stoich ratio whether it be gasoline or E85. Unless your cats are completely defective, which I highly doubt being a newer car, the reading at the tailpipe will be different. Why go to all this effort to convert to E85 and tune from an inaccurate value?


If the sole purpose of the converter was to change then afr then why is the wideband 02 installed before it? Converters are there to do just that, convert gasses into less harmful gasses for the environment. Take a little read if you will, http://www.explainthatstuff.com/catalyticconverters.html better explanes how this works. As for afr your primary 02 in modern cars (most fuel injected vehicles) the primary 02 sensor(s) are factory wideband afr sensors that are constantly measuring the afr and making adjustments as needed. Do a little more reading. Youd be enlightened by what you may find.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

MilTownSHO said:


> I had a rental Taurus with the flex fuel option. I ran one tank regular fuel and the other on E85 running down the highway. When you figured in the cost per mile, it was actually cheaper running plain old gasoline.


This can be true for many flex fuel especially if your comparing to normal 87 octane E10 gas sold everywhere to E85, not as much savings as comparing to premium gas. However with a tune to utilize the E85 for its higher octane, its would be more accurate to compare cost/performance vs premium fuel.

Flex fuel technology has come along way in the last few years, a stock flexfuel 2014+ Silverado 1500 with the 4.3L ecotec3 v6 gains 12HP and 25lb-ft of torque on E85, the 5.3L V8 Ecotec3 gains 25hp and 33lb-ft of torque. More performance and cheaper fuel, sounds like a win to me.


EDIT: I should also add E85 prices can vary significantly. I have seen a few stations where E85 is only 10 cents less than regular 87 octane gas, on the same day seen another station it's a dollar less a gallon. This website below is great for finding cheap E85. http://www.e85prices.com/


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## ErickysGSX (Jul 19, 2011)

Is their any chance that those of us that already have the E85 tune and sensor could just buy the fuel line and sensor harness shown in the pic?


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## Jfisher (Apr 21, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> That's not what catalytic converters are for at all. And I've tested my same car with and without catalytic converters, I assure you, they have no effect on AFR.


Let's hear what you think they're used for?



cruzinred92 said:


> If the sole purpose of the converter was to change then afr then why is the wideband 02 installed before it? Converters are there to do just that, convert gasses into less harmful gasses for the environment. Take a little read if you will, How do catalytic converters work? - Explain that Stuff better explanes how this works. As for afr your primary 02 in modern cars (most fuel injected vehicles) the primary 02 sensor(s) are factory wideband afr sensors that are constantly measuring the afr and making adjustments as needed. Do a little more reading. Youd be enlightened by what you may find.


A WBO2 is installed before the converter(s) because the converters alter AFR / reduce harmful emissions. When you install a WBO2 after the cats (which is the wrong way, hence why you never see anyone doing it that way) you're getting a reading that isn't accurate at the engine because the cats (if working correctly) are doing their jobs and reducing harmful emissions / attempting to reach the stoich ratio. When tuning accurately you want to know what the engine is doing AT the engine and not anything behind that where the AFR is changed.

The reason you have an O2 before a cat and after cat is to ensure the converter is working. If the converter didn't do anything why would you even need a 2nd O2...

If anyone needs to read anything you need to read this...

EFI University Electronic Fuel Injection Tuning :: View topic - Do catalytic converters affect AFR?

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?24124-do-cats-affect-AFR

Will the every day driver notice a difference in a tune done pre / post cat? Probably not especially at idle or normal driving. WOT is a different story. My point was why do all this tuning work on a value that isn't at the engine.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

What is a catalytic converter and how does it work? - HowStuffWorks


Carbon monoxide is a poison for any air-breathing animal. Nitrogen oxides lead to smog and acid rain, and hydrocarbonsproduce smog.
In a catalytic converter, the *catalyst* (in the form of platinum and palladium) is coated onto a ceramic honeycomb or ceramic beads that are housed in a muffler-like package attached to the exhaust pipe. The catalyst helps to convert carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide. It converts the hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide and water. It also converts the nitrogen oxides back into nitrogen and oxygen.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Again- I have done wideband testing PRE and POST and I can assure you, they are the same readings. I've done testing on my cars with and without catalytic converters, and again, the AFR is the same either way at the tip. If you have an exhaust leak or something, it will throw it off for sure.


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## Samuel (Jun 4, 2014)

Well I'm ready for the details on this kit already.


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## akulahawk (Mar 16, 2015)

I'd like to know some details about the kit as well.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Have friends and kids with flex-fuel vehicles and with E-85 around here. Same old story, for fuel economy, cost more per mile than paying a little extra for real gas.

But performance was not an issue with them and neither was being "green".

So gathering if you want performance or being green, get this kit. Wonder what the price of E-85 would be if the government wasn't subsidizing it. 

Ha, like asking stupid questions like why E-85, why not E-100?

Here is a bit on E-85, but a bit difficult to learn the BTU and octane rating, and really don't know what's at the pump with over 18 manufacturers of this stuff in Wisconsin

"
[h=1]E85 Specification[/h] ASTM International developed a specification for gasoline-ethanol blends containing 51%-83% ethanol that address proper vehicle starting, operation, and safety in varying temperature conditions. The table below shows the requirements of the ASTM D5798 Standard Specification for Ethanol Fuel Blends for Flexible-Fuel Automotive Spark-Ignition Engines. Fuel retailers or fleets purchasing E85 should specify meeting the requirements of the specification as a condition in their supply contracts, so that they can guarantee their product is ASTM-compliant.
Like gasoline and diesel fuel, E85 and other ethanol-gasoline blends are adjusted seasonally and geographically to ensure proper starting and performance. For example, E85 sold during colder months often contain lower levels of ethanol to produce the vapor pressure necessary for starting in cold temperatures. For this reason, fueling site operators offering ethanol blends typically cannot carryover summer-blend E85 into the winter months. They must instead "blend down" any remaining summer fuel to meet the ASTM specification’s requirements for winter temperature conditions. This can be done with relative ease by adding additional gasoline to the storage tank. On the other hand, there is no concern with carrying over winter fuel into the summer months because flexible fuel vehicles can operate on any blend of ethanol and gasoline in warm weather. For retail service stations, seasonal fuel adjustments are handled automatically at the wholesale fuel terminal."

From 

Alternative Fuels Data Center: E85 Specification


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Kit will be available for retail purchase later this week. If you are interested in buying NOW, just shoot me a PM.


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## 1.4TheRoad (Apr 16, 2015)

Almost been a month. 
Kit is not available yet and old kit was removed.
Out of stock on injectors too. :/

Questions.
Is old kit discontinued entirely?
Is the new kit still available with trifecta goodies for people who wanna jump from stock straight into e85.
And final question, for those of us who will have little to no issue finding e85 within 1 mile of any location. What's the price difference between the old and new kit?


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

These kits are available on our website as of last week


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## Etec225 (Apr 6, 2015)

On your website it says it wont fit a 2011 cruze. Why is that?


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## brlcla (Mar 9, 2017)

Etec225 said:


> On your website it says it wont fit a 2011 cruze. Why is that?


2011 ECUs on the LUJ did not have stock Flex Fuel mappings in the ECU. Can't tune what is not there. 2012+ ECUs with the LUJ motors had Flex Fuel mappings built into the E78 ECUs, but GM chose to never sell them as Flex Vehicles therefore never installed the fuel sensor which is what this kit is selling.

Also E85 is higher octane but it is also less BTU/#. So that is why you have to to larger injectors b/c the engine needs more #s of fuel for #s of air. AFR will be the same, but you will burn more volume of fuel.

In short E85 is cheaper bc it has lower fuel value aka potential energy when burned. You will likely not see much saving unless the price disperity is huge, but you do get to compare it to race fuel prices 105-108 octanes.


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## BMcCruze89 (Jan 6, 2017)

I'm not into cars enough to do this on my own. Could this be done by a mechanic or dealership? I was thinking why the Cruze didn't come with flexfuel as even the cars "under" the Cruze has the flexfuel option. Also I've seen flexfuel for some cars offer less MPG


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## Just 1 More PSI (Nov 14, 2017)

Hey Jerry,

I just wanted to touch base and see if this kit will work with the 2017 Cruze?

Thanks!


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## Taxman (Aug 10, 2017)

MilTownSHO said:


> I had a rental Taurus with the flex fuel option. I ran one tank regular fuel and the other on E85 running down the highway. When you figured in the cost per mile, it was actually cheaper running plain old gasoline.


Depending on the car, E85 needs to be 2/3-3/4 the price of gas to actually be economical. 

When your rental is flex fuel, and you get fined for failing to return it with a full tank, fill it up with E85 just before you drop it off.


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## [email protected] (Nov 12, 2011)

Just 1 More PSI said:


> Hey Jerry,
> 
> I just wanted to touch base and see if this kit will work with the 2017 Cruze?
> 
> Thanks!



Not yet. We're looking at it


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