# 'Gen-2 Cruze switching from R-134a to R-1234YF refrigerant



## ajb62787 (Feb 13, 2018)

Is there any particular reason as to why the R-1234YF freon became so restricted to just the dealership and wholesale can get ahold of them? I called NAPA Auto Parts and they told me "We have the freon in stock; however, you must have a vendor license and certificate in order to purchase it". My local dealership wants to charge $200 just for a recharge. I was also told by a ACDelco employee that the Federal Government is mandating it to not be sold to the general public as a DIY.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Not really...it's not any more dangerous than R-134a...


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## ajb62787 (Feb 13, 2018)

The pressure hose for the R-134a does not fit on the new Cruze, so it prevents it from being backwards compatible


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Correct, because you know someone would try and fill it. If it's anything like changing from R12 to R134a, you'd have to change the oil in the compressor along with all of the refrigerant.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

$200 is a pretty decent rate from the dealer. That stuff is P R I C E Y at the moment. 

Give it some time and it might come down in price and you might be able to buy it in the future. 

As for now. You shouldn't be needing it for a couple years at least. So I don't know why your pricing it out. It's new stuff. I think i read January 1, 2017 was the implementation date. But some manufactures started using earlier. 

My cruze is a 17. Produced August 27, 2016 so it's 134. 

134 was restricted to licensed mechanics also in the beginning. So, It'll probably take a couple of years before the public can buy it.

I"m glad I've got a certificate to buy.


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## ajb62787 (Feb 13, 2018)

snowwy66 said:


> $200 is a pretty decent rate from the dealer. That stuff is P R I C E Y at the moment.
> 
> Give it some time and it might come down in price and you might be able to buy it in the future.
> 
> ...


I apparently have an A/C leak to where it went from Cold to Cool to Warm over the past 2 Weeks. Had it checked and was found to be low on freon. My '17 Cruze was manufactured in 04/17, which has R-1234yf on the label under the hood


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

ajb62787 said:


> I apparently have an A/C leak to where it went from Cold to Cool to Warm over the past 2 Weeks. Had it checked and was found to be low on freon. My '17 Cruze was manufactured in 04/17, which has R-1234yf on the label under the hood


What's the date it went in to service? You bought it? How many miles? 

Isn't AC part of the bumper to bumper warranty for 36k miles? Or whatever your car came with.

I'm glad mine was manufactured when it was. Still has 134.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

snowwy66 said:


> Isn't AC part of the bumper to bumper warranty for 36k miles? Or whatever your car came with.


It should be.


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## Cruzen18 (Jan 28, 2018)

fwiw...I can't remember the dates, but I did have a residential a/c guy tell me last year that they are (eventually) removing all of it from end user accessibility w/o a license. So, unless you you have one or know someone that does and willing to get it for you, you will have to pay a repairman/garage to service all a/c units. Good ole EPA and govt regs...


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## jmlo96 (May 2, 2015)

Gold old R1234yf. Anyone know what YF stands for? You're F***ED. That stuff is supposed to be super expensive and I hear its flammable.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Slightly flammable. And most of that came from the Germans who have some weird grudge against it.


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## Cruzen18 (Jan 28, 2018)

jmlo96 said:


> Gold old R1234yf. Anyone know what YF stands for? You're F***ED. That stuff is supposed to be super expensive and I hear its flammable.



I think I got it....Rrrrr...1,2,3,4 You're F......


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

R12 is flammable. That's why it's illegal to be had in the United States. 1234 is expensive. Because it's brand new stuff. So new. That you really need to stop worrying about price because it's covered under warranty. 
It was only implemented 14 months ago. Wait another 22 months then worry about actually paying for it yourself. 

That's probably one reason why it's not on the shelf also. Because no one needs to be buying it yet. WAit for the 3 year mark when cars expire their standard 36k mile warranty or whatever. Then start worrying about it. 

Untill then. None of us need to be concerned about buying or needing. Let the warranty worry about it. 

134 went through the same process when it came out in 94. Not available for public purchase. Needed a EPA certificate. Was expensive.
12 was totally banned. Never to be heard from again.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

snowwy66 said:


> R12 is flammable. That's why it's illegal to be had in the United States. 1234 is expensive. Because it's brand new stuff. So new. That you really need to stop worrying about price because it's covered under warranty.
> It was only implemented 14 months ago. Wait another 22 months then worry about actually paying for it yourself.
> 
> That's probably one reason why it's not on the shelf also. Because no one needs to be buying it yet. WAit for the 3 year mark when cars expire their standard 36k mile warranty or whatever. Then start worrying about it.
> ...


You can still get R12...but it's expensive because it is old. My '81 runs on R12, but I'm pretty sure it all leaked out when I tightened it down during the header install. I'll likely remove the giant cast iron A6 compressor and update to a much smaller aluminum compressor, running R134a. 

And agreed - the AC refrigerant is definitely covered under B2B warranty...no cost...


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

MP81 said:


> You can still get R12...but it's expensive because it is old. My '81 runs on R12, but I'm pretty sure it all leaked out when I tightened it down during the header install. I'll likely remove the giant cast iron A6 compressor and update to a much smaller aluminum compressor, running R134a.
> 
> And agreed - the AC refrigerant is definitely covered under B2B warranty...no cost...


According to google. It's only available in the middle east i think it was. Highly flammable so it's illegal in the U.S. 
The gooberment banned it's existence about 5 years after 134. I wanna say 98. It was no longer allowed for production or available for purchase in the U.S. 
We had to take a class and watch a video on the effects 12 was having on the ozone. Then we were given a book and a test. It was a open book test. We turned in and EPA mailed us our certificates. We had to have that certificate to buy 134 at that time. And 12 while it was still in existence. The class was done through a vendor. I think i did mine through NAPA. 

I didn't even know 134 was available to the consumer till i saw it on the shelves at autozone a few years after i retired from wrenching. 

If 12 is available. I'd like to know how and where cuz i know some people who'd still like to have some. 

Course, there ARE kits that can be installed to accomodate 134 in a 12 system. I don't know why they don't buy those kits. They're fairly cheap kits. Even walmart has them. Used to be the system had to be rebuilt for 134. Apparently that's not the case anymore. 134 ran at a higher pressure then 12 so the compressor had to be replaced. And every seal in teh system had to be replaced. 12 uses black seals while 134 uses green seals. Different freon and the oil used was also different. The green seals have a different molecular structure then the black and can hold 134 while the old black seals couldn't.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Quite a lot available on eBay it looks like...if you're willing to pay, haha: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...A0.H0.XR12.TRS0&_nkw=r12+refrigerant&_sacat=0

Yeah, I think they do make a conversion, but to me, if I'm going that route, I can get a Sanden-style aluminum compressor and get that behemoth out of the engine bay!


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

I don't think i'd trust any of them cans. Old and rusty and every one of them sold in Houston. 

THe conversion kits were $40 when i saw them at walmart. Looked like all they were was adaptor fittings. I think there was some oil. I'd have to look it up. If walmart is even still selling them.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

snowwy66 said:


> R12 is flammable.


Uh, no. R-12 is currently used as fire suppressant in submarines and aircraft. It's the only allowable use for it right now. R-12 was banned because it destroys the ozone layer.


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## Taxman (Aug 10, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> Uh, no. R-12 is currently used as fire suppressant in submarines and aircraft.


That's news to me. H-1211 is another name for Halon, and R-102 is a brand name, not a refrigerant label, and I haven't found any reference to R-12 as a suppressant. 



> R-12 was banned because it destroys the ozone layer.


Yep. 
But only manufacture was banned, not purchase or usage.
And now they're pushing 1234 because 134a is supposed to be lots more 'greenhouse' effective than CO2, which isn't a major contributor when compared to real greenhouse compounds like H2O. 

Oh, no, 134a is 1600x more conducive to global warming than CO2. So it's suddenly very wrong to have a pound of 134a last ten years or more in a car that emits 1600lb of CO2 every 3000 miles.

If I still have two Cruzes in a month or two when the weather gets hot, I might do some AC performance testing of my R134a 2016 gen2 vs my R-1234YF 2017. More and more I'm thinking about selling my beloved 2017 RS and keeping the 2016 that has cheap refrigerant and has fewer security hurdles in flashing the PCM.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Barry Allen said:


> Uh, no. R-12 is currently used as fire suppressant in submarines and aircraft. It's the only allowable use for it right now. R-12 was banned because it destroys the ozone layer.


You got the ozone part correct. But I'm not seeing the military using a highly flammable substance from the middle east as a fire suppressant. 

CFC was banned in 96. That includes R12, hairsprays, and I don't remember the rest of the list when i had to take the class to get certified to buy freon when the transition from 12 to 134 was soon to happen. 

12 MIGHT still be available in a recycled from. If you can find it. From what i read. There IS a reformulation but HIGHLY flammable. And I think only used in the middle east. Been awhile since i read up on it so i could be wrong.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Taxman said:


> That's news to me. H-1211 is another name for Halon, and R-102 is a brand name, not a refrigerant label, and I haven't found any reference to R-12 as a suppressant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had to make a pit stop at a tire shop on my way home from work today to get a flat tire fixed on my 5,000 mile car. I talked to the manager. He says 1234 is supposed to be a replacement for 12 and is SUPPOSED to be just as cold as 12 was. Last year when i read up on 1234. According to google. It's supposed to be a in between 12 and 134. Thus the 1234 name. 

I don't know about the greenhouse effect you talk of. But i do know. One R12 molecule has a lifespan of 100 years. That's how long it can last in the ozone. Burning a hole. 134 has a lifespan of 25 years. The new 1234 has a lifespan of 7 years. I guess the technology isn't there yet to create something that WON'T burn up the ozone. 

The ozone CAN repair itself. But i don't remember the details and timeframe and on that aspect.


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## Taxman (Aug 10, 2017)

snowwy66 said:


> Last year when i read up on 1234. According to google. It's supposed to be a in between 12 and 134. Thus the 1234 name.


Well, that's potentially a good thing. 134a was never about performance, and its relatively low critical temperature can cause real problems in extreme, as in Arizona summer, weather. 




> I guess the technology isn't there yet to create something that WON'T burn up the ozone.


Yes, there is. 
R-290 (AKA Propane) and R-600 (AKA Isobutane) are examples. 
The boiling point of 290 is too low, and 600 is too high for air conditioning use, so they're typically mixed to strike a happy medium. Envirosafe ES-12a / HC-12a was one example. And the best part is, it works great with the old fashioned mineral oils we used with R-12. The only drawback is it's more flammable than R-134a. (and R-290's critical temp is even worse than R-134a, so don't use it in weather over 100°F)

Here's a write-up a friend of mine did on testing out an old Mercedes with hydrocarbon mix so he knew it was fixed before filling it with expensive (and ozone depleting if it leaked out) R-12.
http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/cwair.html


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

The CDC lists R-12 as non-flammable: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0192.html


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

CDC describes something that existed in America 22 years ago. CDC has no control or jurisdiction of CURRENT chemicals being used overseas. 

You might research it. It's how I found out about it. It's also how i found out about the upcoming 1234. I had no idea or even heard of it coming down the pipeline. 

RESEARCH.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

Taxman said:


> If I still have two Cruzes in a month or two when the weather gets hot, I might do some AC performance testing of my R134a 2016 gen2 vs my R-1234YF 2017. More and more I'm thinking about selling my beloved 2017 RS and keeping the 2016 that has cheap refrigerant and has fewer security hurdles in flashing the PCM.


GM really does make the best air conditioning. GM and Cadillac had any other luxury brand beat in the 1960s and even today. So long as the compressor, condenser, evaporator, etc. is all sized properly, GM air conditioning will just about freeze you solid.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

snowwy66 said:


> CDC describes something that existed in America 22 years ago. CDC has no control or jurisdiction of CURRENT chemicals being used overseas.


R-12 is all the same no matter where it is made. Dichlorodifluoromethane is dichlorodifluoromethane.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

barry allen said:


> r-12 is all the same no matter where it is made. Dichlorodifluoromethane is dichlorodifluoromethane.


 r e s e a r c h


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## ChevyGuy (Dec 13, 2014)

snowwy66 said:


> r e s e a r c h


R-12 and a R-12 substitute are two different things. And let's not confuse R-12 refrigerant with R-12 Risk Phrases or any of the other "R12"s out there.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Barry Allen said:


> GM really does make the best air conditioning. GM and Cadillac had any other luxury brand beat in the 1960s and even today. So long as the compressor, condenser, evaporator, etc. is all sized properly, GM air conditioning will just about freeze you solid.


I found the Gen 1 Cruze pretty underwhelming, even when properly charged, but the blower was asthmatic. 

Gen 2 AC is [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

ChevyGuy said:


> R-12 and a R-12 substitute are two different things. And let's not confuse R-12 refrigerant with R-12 Risk Phrases or any of the other "R12"s out there.


Yep


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Nothing 134 will freeze you solid. 

134 doesn't compare to what 12 used to do.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

snowwy66 said:


> Nothing 134 will freeze you solid.
> 
> 134 doesn't compare to what 12 used to do.


Yuuup. R12 is a far superior refrigerant. It's just...a lot worse for the environment, haha.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

MP81 said:


> Yuuup. R12 is a far superior refrigerant. It's just...a lot worse for the environment, haha.


I think there's a few reasons why. 

It basically boils down to this. 

2 pounds of 12 vs. 1 pound of 134. In cars.

12 had twice the amount of freon.

Semis had 5 pounds of 12. They only have slightly more then 2 pounds of 134.


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## ajb62787 (Feb 13, 2018)

It was determined as an A/C Leak in the compressor. My vehicle is a '17 Cruze with just over 23K Miles. What really irritated the .... out of me was it took them (dealership) 7 Hours to put a new seal and bolt in the compressor as I got a rental for the day. By the time they said it was done, they were closing up. I told them that I would pick it up on Saturday. I get there Saturday and they said have a seat and we'd get the car for you. 45 Minutes later, I go up there and nobody knew anything. 1 Hour later, I finally got my car after the service advisor swore to me that he told me to go to the cashier to get checked out and for them to get my vehicle.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

LOL. 

Keys always get picked up from the cashier. You want a receipt for work done anyways. 

I kept every paperwork on my Hyundai when i traded it in. For my records. But only had the car 3 years. Now the new owner has everything. Right down to the temp tag that was issued before the plates arrived. And the stickers on the windows at the dealer lot. 

I'll be keeping everything for my cruze. If i die before the car does. The new owner will have everything. Just like the Hyundai.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

I'm surprised they didn't give you a loaner for warranty work. I always check my vehicle in Friday afternoon (parts/service isn't open on Saturday at our service dealer) so that I get a loaner for the weekend, haha.


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## Pegasus (Feb 17, 2018)

ajb62787 said:


> It was determined as an A/C Leak in the compressor. My vehicle is a '17 Cruze with just over 23K Miles. What really irritated the .... out of me was it took them (dealership) 7 Hours to put a new seal and bolt in the compressor as I got a rental for the day. By the time they said it was done, they were closing up. I told them that I would pick it up on Saturday. I get there Saturday and they said have a seat and we'd get the car for you. 45 Minutes later, I go up there and nobody knew anything. 1 Hour later, I finally got my car after the service advisor swore to me that he told me to go to the cashier to get checked out and for them to get my vehicle.


I'm confused. I know you have to pick keys up at the cashier regardless, but did you or did you not have to pay for something that should've been under warranty? If you did, what exactly did you pay for?


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

snowwy66 said:


> It basically boils down to this.
> 2 pounds of 12 vs. 1 pound of 134. In cars.
> 12 had twice the amount of freon.
> Semis had 5 pounds of 12. They only have slightly more then 2 pounds of 134.


The amount of Freon is irrelevant. 

Pound for pound R134a is a more efficient refrigerant than R12 (however it runs at higher pressures in some aspects and therefore requires more effective condensing). Given two identical vehicles, each with the same weighted amount of refrigerant, the vehicle with the R134a has the ability to remove more heat from the vehicle than the same type of vehicle using the same amount of R12.

Whether R134a performs as well as R12 in any given a/c system depends upon system components and the amount of R134a used.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

The amount of 134 is just as relevant as the amount of 12. 

The older 134 cars blew a couple degrees colder. The held roughly 1.50 pounds. You could get em down to 38 degrees if everything worked properly. 

Todays cars average 1 pound. And are lucky to hit 42 degrees. 

I don't charge 134 any higher then i did with 12. Anything higher caused vent temps to start going up. OVERCHARGED. 

I also don't use cans. I use 30 lb cylinders. And I don't allow any air whatsoever.


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## Barry Allen (Apr 18, 2018)

MP81 said:


> Slightly flammable. And most of that came from the Germans who have some weird grudge against it.


The Germans want a consensus solution so that the entire industry has a standard way of doing this. They don't want to sink time and money into CO2 to have their cars be the odd ones out in the US (and global) market if everyone else adapts HFO-1234yf as a replacement for R-124a. Imagine having only MB, BMW, and Audi/VW cars using CO2. You'd have all the American (and possibly Japanese) brands using a drop-in replacement for R-134a and the German imports would be the cars that "You have to go to the dealership to get that fixed." It would hinder their market share.


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## Celdwist (Nov 17, 2016)

So would my Gen2 2016 Cruze have the R134a or the new r1234yf?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Celdwist said:


> So would my Gen2 2016 Cruze have the R134a or the new r1234yf?


134a

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## Celdwist (Nov 17, 2016)

Thank you


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

Anything built before Jan 1, 2017 will be 134. 

My 17 beat the clock by 4 months.


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