# Still feel very uncomfortable with these rear disk calipers.



## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

A photo is worth a thousand words.

View attachment 93474


Dealer won't replace them because he says they are functional, can imagine that lever breaking off in the next year or two. Then would really be screwed. Looked at other used vehicles like the Malibu and Impala of the 2012 vintage, nicely plated, and even are the 2014 Cruzes. Did spot one other 2012 Cruze. Some kind of black oxide, but nothing as bad as what mine are. Even my 04 Cavalier was well plated, what happened with this Cruze?

What do you reps think about this? Would you want these in your car where your life depends upon them?

Leaving a very negative feeling with this guy.

Oh and still having this mysterious problem where the brake pedal goes clear to the floor, but not all the time. Other times, getting a full pedal.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

NickD said:


> What do you reps think about this?


Glad I have rear drums. :grin:


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## David1 (Sep 16, 2011)

It's fine.


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## nick993 (Dec 30, 2013)

Is it pitting or just surface rust? Pitting would be a sign of corrosion and would be covered under the corrosion warranty.


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## iTz SADISTIK (Apr 6, 2014)

Guess I'll keep my drums


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

My old car was 13 years old with 250,000km on the clock when I sold it and the rear discs were in much better condition than that. If my brakes looked like that while still under warranty I would take it to a RTA inspection station and would most likely get a defect notice and the dealer would have no choice but to repair them to as new condition to pass inspection and have the defect notice cleared.


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## hificruzer226 (Mar 27, 2013)

I say take them off media blast than powder coat...


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Ha, where are the reps at? Certainly a hazard and still covered under warranty, could spend a couple of hundred bucks and replace the calipers myself and even paint them pink.

I am suspecting part #20 on this exploded view as a very suspect culprit as rusty as these things are, can be binding causing this erratic operation. But what do I know, only a dumb customer and not an expert mechanic. 

View attachment 93553


Matter of fact, the more I think about it, the calipers are the problem, piston does have a mm of play in it so you can remove the pads if you have a ridge on the rotor. With rust, that piston can vibrate back leaving a mm gap in the pads to the rotor. That would INDUBITABLY, cause this low pedal problem. Wish they would quit horsing around and replace these calipers with the new plated kind. Should have been plated in the first place.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

NickD said:


> Should have been plated in the first place.


No arguements there


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## money_man (Feb 25, 2014)

Man I hope I have the plated kind on my ctd


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

NickD said:


> Oh and still having this mysterious problem where the brake pedal goes clear to the floor, but not all the time. Other times, getting a full pedal.


This doesn't happen to be related to the brake assist recall from a year or more ago, does it? That's exactly how the pedal on my '11 felt the one or two times I experienced that fun. It would only happen on cold startup. After revving the engine, problem solved.

As for the rust, it doesn't look dangerous...yet. That said, I have a 5 year old Subaru that's spent every winter of its life in salty Minnesota that has less rust than that on the brakes.

I'm so glad I finally moved out of the salty Midwestern winters. I hated seeing salted roads with a passion I can't describe. Unfortunately, my CTD still got one salty winter under its belt, but from what I can tell it's rust free except a bit of surface rust on the exhaust pipe and a bit on the rear brake rotors.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Ten year old calipers on he Cavalier look like new yet, but what does this have to do with the Cruze. Several factors are involved. Metal piston in a rusty caliper, rust clear around the piston boot, can't expect that to seal. Piston can be depressed one millimeter to permit removal of the pads if someone leaves it long enough to get a ridge around the edge of the rotor.

Play in the hub bearings and shove that piston in leaving a gap that would cause the pedal to go the floor. Augmented by rust in the bore. Or just normal vibration. Seems so obvious to me that badly rusted calipers are the problem, and have failed to find one yet where there isn't internal rust as well besides external rust.

Saw another 2012 Cruze, least they attempted to paint the darn thing black, these are raw, other GM cars have plated calipers and no rust at all. 

Going into my dealer again this morning, and will respectably request to speak to GM myself on this issue. Just send this piece of crap back to China and tell that vendor to plate them.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Experts at GM conclusion is that entire vacuum line between the intake manifold and brake booster including the vacuum pump switch/valve is causing this low brake pedal problem. Saw this assembly yesterday.

The major difference between this new one is all neoprene hoses are used with plastic fittings, where the one in there is using half plastic hoses with integrated fittings. Claim the rusty calipers is not the problem and won't replace them. 

They are to install this new line in this Tuesday. Time will tell if this will solve this problem. Experienced low brake pedal again last night. Guess I will have to wait to see if this solves this problem.


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## Poje (Aug 2, 2012)

NickD said:


> A photo is worth a thousand words.
> 
> View attachment 93474
> 
> ...


I have the same trouble with rust, im gonna paint them or powder coat them soon.

Btw i saw a 120000$ Tesla model S with the rear calipers rusted too...


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

PanJet said:


> This doesn't happen to be related to the brake assist recall from a year or more ago, does it? That's exactly how the pedal on my '11 felt the one or two times I experienced that fun. It would only happen on cold startup. After revving the engine, problem solved.
> 
> As for the rust, it doesn't look dangerous...yet. That said, I have a 5 year old Subaru that's spent every winter of its life in salty Minnesota that has less rust than that on the brakes.
> 
> I'm so glad I finally moved out of the salty Midwestern winters. I hated seeing salted roads with a passion I can't describe. Unfortunately, my CTD still got one salty winter under its belt, but from what I can tell it's rust free except a bit of surface rust on the exhaust pipe and a bit on the rear brake rotors.


Yeah my Legacy only had the rust on the rotors. Calipers were fine but I painted them before the 1st Virginia snow. The original owner got the car in ATL and got stationed in VA. Car came back to Ohio and has been here since 09.


Sent from my iFail 5s


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Certainly an ongoing battle between auto manufacturers and the government, in particular using calcium chloride for snow removal causing excess vehicle corrosion. This is just one article on this subject.

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/sr/sr235/031-046.pdf

Heard on the news last night that Subaru is recalling 70,000 vehicle due to road salt damage to hydraulic brake lines. Said would cause fluid leaks that MAY cause extended stopping distances. Ha. laughed when I heard this, like a half a mile. 

The front calipers in my Cruze look okay, the cheap easy to replace ones. Already discussing spending money to do something with these rears ones. Or told my wife, not completely aware of our liability laws, to sue GM for a billion dollars if I get killed due to rusty calipers.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

If rusted out vehicles goes that far back, why is it still an issue? The last gen chargers are rusting up here around the back wheel wells. 


Sent from my iFail 5s


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## stamas (Mar 7, 2014)

mine are shiny they deffntly look like they have some sort of coating . deffintly not bear metal .


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## CHEVYCRUZE RS (Mar 29, 2011)

Wow that's terrible , you do a lot of driving in rain ? I just finished lubing up my coilovers again and did a light coat on my callipers with white lithium , not a single spot of Rust on my Cruze maybe try some out it'll help contain the rust


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Thank you GM for at least plating my front calipers, little dull now due to a coating of brake dust, but 100% rust free. But do wish the rear calipers were plated instead of the fronts, far more difficult to replace and far more expensive.

But feel I have to go along with they are not the problem, been checking the gap between the rotors and pads, can't even squeeze a finger nail in there. And zero axial play. Getting a constant half pedal now, so is getting worse, whatever the problem is.

Will learn Tuesday if a new vacuum booster hose assembly corrects this.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Vacuum brake booster is next on the list to replace, this coming Thursday. GM is still debating the rear disk calipers.

Since I have been working in the automotive field for some odd 38 years as an engineer, have more than a vague idea what the manufacturing cost of these parts are. Can say this, the labor charge to replace these parts is considerably greater. So since the ABS modulator and module is directly below the vacuum brake booster. Should replace this too, to save on labor. 

But if they want to play around, so can I.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Pretty sure the ABS components will exceed the cost of labor.
Years back I replaced a $900 abs module for only 0.5hrs of labor.

It does get frustrating dealing with warranty.
When I left the dealership for a different maintenance career I was a master cert. ASE tech. My truck was under warranty and I knew they were mis-diagnosing it but they would not listen.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Reason for my paranoia on parts cost, seen markups as high as 150 times as great on the dealers shelves compared to actual manufacturing cost that also included the executives paychecks. 

Ha, can't fire me for stating these facts now, already moved my job to China. Sure the ABS is not marked up quite this high. but would guess the manufacturing cost to be around 35 bucks.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Dealer just replaced the vacuum pump under advisement from GM. Didn't make a bit of difference, parking brake is not ratcheting the super rusty rear calipers, and the brake pedal is extremely low.

Starting to get a wee bit teed off, feel like I am dealing with idiots. Have another call into GM, this has been dragging on for seven weeks now. 

Didn't quite like the suggestion to trade it off for a 2014.


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

NickD said:


> Dealer just replaced the vacuum pump under advisement from GM. Didn't make a bit of difference, parking brake is not ratcheting the super rusty rear calipers, and the brake pedal is extremely low.
> 
> Starting to get a wee bit teed off, feel like I am dealing with idiots. Have another call into GM, this has been dragging on for seven weeks now.
> 
> Didn't quite like the suggestion to trade it off for a 2014.


tell the dealer too pinch off the rear flex hoses, then see if you have a good pedal, if pedal is good you have sticky calipers or air in calipers.


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

if pedal is the same with hoses pinched, start looking somewhere else.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

oilburner said:


> if pedal is the same with hoses pinched, start looking somewhere else.


They won't do this unless they can find a TSB that tells them to. So far, any TSB they can find deals with lack of power assist, so dealing with all vacuum related problems. Even though this is not the problem. 

Did you ever try talking to a wall?


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

NickD said:


> Did you ever try talking to a wall?


If you talk loud enough to a wall, you'll at least get an echo. I'd say you're talking to a pillow. Full of air and no intelligible return.


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## oilburner (Jun 13, 2013)

NickD said:


> They won't do this unless they can find a TSB that tells them to. So far, any TSB they can find deals with lack of power assist, so dealing with all vacuum related problems. Even though this is not the problem.
> 
> Did you ever try talking to a wall?


their guys are like robots instead of real techs.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

Try this method, it worked with my local council about removing dead trees. Tell the dealer you are getting a lawyer to hold information saying that your brakes are fault and aren't being repaired and if you have an accident you will be suing the dealer for causing the problem and putting lives at risk. My trees were gone within a week after 2 years of pleading.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Tell them to give you a loaner and keep the car until fixed.
Obviously they can duplicate the problem but aren't able to fix it.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Service manager says the brakes are perfectly fine, even though the ratcheting of the calipers no longer works, and getting half a pedal. Still claims, if he changes the calipers and GM says they are fine, will get struck with the bill. Although I pointed out to him, you already replaced three components that didn't change a thing. And at times the brake pedal goes to the floor, and the service manager tells me he needs authority to replace the calipers. That brought about the question, who has this authority.

When you call GM at customer service, speak to a person at the bottom of the totem pole, been assigned to an agent at a higher level. Talked to her yesterday with key questions, do you have the authority, she said no. Do you have any technical knowledge of these cars, again the answer is no. Tried to explain to her in the most simplest terms I could use as to what the problem is, lost her in the dust, doesn't even know what a ratcheting wrench is.

Then I asked her, who is my service manager talking to at GM, she said to me and technical service. Does technical have the authority? No was the reply, from the symptoms the manager tells them, they just make recommendations.

She said her only job is to document this case, so I asked, who does have the authority? Turns out it is this service manager and his boss, the owner of the dealership. Could only reply, than the service manager is a blatant liar!

Her recommendation that was to go to a different dealer, said, this would be easy since I have eight Chevy dealers in my area. So I went to the next closest one to me, made an appointment, will look at my car this Tuesday. But did make a comment, should check into my existing service manager. Don't like people lying to me.

See what happens this Tuesday.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Your experience with customer service sounds the same as mine was..... a waste of my time. Not sure which was more annoying, the lack of help or when they didn't call me back a scheduled times they said they would. 

I suspect it might take a trip to a few different dealers to find one with a good service department, some are not receptive at all to customers who have a clue. 

No reason what so ever you should be going through this GM should swap out a 2 winter part that looks 8+ years old that very well could be the cause of your brake issues. Would seem the NHTSA would be interested in this case since your brake issue could cause a serious accident, should this be a recall? Wish you luck!


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

I sure don't want to make any new enemies, been being nice for a change. But when told this manager has full authority to replaced these calipers, and told otherwise about this, couldn't help but call him a blatant liar. 

Other idiot statements were, you want plated calipers, trade it in for a 2014. Or your brakes are okay, not getting any codes, like there are codes for a low brake pedal. Or when I first get into the car in the morning, the pedal goes clear to the floor. Why are you stepping on the brake pedal? Said, been doing this all my life, if I don't, when stepping on the clutch, the car will roll backwards. 

Showed him a 2012 in his lot with plated rear calipers, no comment to this, why weren't my calipers plated? Front one are, no problems with these. Tried to explain to him, whenever the brake pedal started getting low, would work the parking brake a couple of time, could feel clicks, not doing this anymore. He turns to his assistant, did you ever hear about using the parking brake to adjust the rear brakes. His assistant said no. These are suppose to be the experts, I am suppose to be the idiot customer. 

Well lets see with what this new dealer has to say, still plan on being nice. Known this dealer since 1970, use to be very good, guess this is history.


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## Daryl (Nov 10, 2013)

Next time I buy a new GM vehicle I'm telling the salesman I want the price dropped another $300 so I can use it to buy good brake rotors, and pads. Every new GM vehicle I have bought except for one has had garbage brakes. They must use the cheapest ones they can find in China. Might be a coincidence, but that one vehicle that I had no problem with? It had rear discs the rest all had or have rear drums.

Sent from my Droid Ultra


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

1982 Chevy P-30 motorhome chassis calipers are neither plated nor painted. If anything, just a very tiny amount of surface rust.

1978 Cadillac Fleetwood rear disk calipers were also not painted nor plated. Was a daily driver in this same road salt stuff, didn't start to give me problems until around 1985 as I recall. Theses were made in the US, no telling what kind of crap the Chinese are tossing in the pot on this two year old car. But one of the worse pile of rust I have ever seen. 

Like I have saying for years in engineering. Can start off with a piece of material, precision machine it, plate it, paint it, even put it in a fancy box with a ribbon on top. But if that basic material is sh!t, will end up with sh!t. And this is exactly what these calipers are on my Cruze!


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

NickD said:


> 1982 Chevy P-30 motorhome chassis calipers are neither plated nor painted. If anything, just a very tiny amount of surface rust.
> 
> 1978 Cadillac Fleetwood rear disk calipers were also not painted nor plated. Was a daily driver in this same road salt stuff, didn't start to give me problems until around 1985 as I recall. Theses were made in the US, no telling what kind of crap the Chinese are tossing in the pot on this two year old car. But one of the worse pile of rust I have ever seen.
> 
> Like I have saying for years in engineering. Can start off with a piece of material, precision machine it, plate it, paint it, even put it in a fancy box with a ribbon on top. But if that basic material is sh!t, will end up with sh!t. And this is exactly what these calipers are on my Cruze!


theyre not using the 'same salt stuff' as in they did _in the good ole days _


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

boraz said:


> theyre not using the 'same salt stuff' as in they did _in the good ole days _


Maybe not but I live in the same rust belt that NickD does and those calipers of his have rusted too much for their age.
My 2000 K3500 has the original calipers on the front and they look better than his.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

boraz said:


> theyre not using the 'same salt stuff' as in they did _in the good ole days _


Is the point of your response to justify the use of inferior materials in automotive safety related components? If not, what is your point? 

Calcium Chloride has been in use for years dating clear back to the end of WWII.

Was under some weird impression, GM would address this issue instantly, but God, they are dragging their feet.


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

NickD said:


> Was under some weird impression, GM would address this issue instantly, but God, they are dragging their feet.


Remember, I said your car wasn't on fire. I saw a TSB for another Cruze problem that said the engineers were collecting information on what ever the problem was, so there was nothing for the dealers to do about it until engineering had figured out what the problem was. I'm suspect that you are the first to complain about corroded calipers and it's "Stump The Band" time. Now, logic tells me that the smart thing to do would be to replace your brakes with new ones and send your originals back to engineering for further evaluation, but that's me, not GM. Wonder who made the calipers?


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Sure finding a number of rebuilt rear disk calipers for the Cruze on the net. Rebuilders don't invest in the tooling unless there is a good replacement market. Somebody must know there is a major problem with these things.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Still waiting to here from dealer number 2 about my Cruze. Gave me a 2005 Buick Park Avenue to drive as a loaner. Odometer says 175K and see it has very well working rear disk calipers. And a full brake pedal!

Told the service manager, to take the brakes out of this thing and put in my Cruze. And maybe I should have purchased a Buick instead of a Chevy. Or maybe they don't make them like they use to. Wife really likes it.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Dealer number 2 said the same thing, nothing wrong with your brakes. Just said very nicely, get your GM Tech II scanner out with the ABS module. Activate the ABS pump, follow the instructions on the screen and bleed all four brakes.

Don't know why they don't have a jar with a tube on it, made a mess on the floor, but the rear calipers had air in them, but the fluid was clean. Lost all arguments here for replacing the rear calipers. Front ones were dirty, but came out clean after a bit, but are rust free because they were plated. Also all four had air.

Lied a bit but asking how air got in there in the first place, but the first dealer after change in the master cylinder never bled them properly.

Am told the piston housing part of the caliper is made from aluminum and should polish up. But only got as far as the parking brake level, bracket for the cable, and the bracket that holds the pads are steel. Is possible they are dripping rust on the rest of the housing. So if I want my Cruze to look nice underneath, will have to remove these parts and paint them.

While I am at it, will rebleed the brakes, still feel the pedal should be a half an inch higher. Think I would rather do this and keep my busy that standing around and waiting, waiting, and waiting. Get awfully bored waiting.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Unfortunately, least for me, no way to hot wire the ABS pump motor for effective brake bleeding. This is the electronic module, that 38 pin connector just handles the wheel sensors and other data links to be BCM.










Those columns make contact directly below the modulator, two of these are for the ABS pump motor. But the modulator sitting on top has to be removed first that requires removing the six brake lines first. And sure can't bleed with the modulator disconnected. Tapping wires into this module won't work either, assuming power MOSFET driven, good way to burn it up by applying 12V, way too small for a relay. Eight are used for the solenoid valves, both close and dump. 

Rear disk brakes are modulated to save the cost of proportioning valves.

Only way is to get your hands on a GMTech II scanner with the ABS module that is interactive. Sure making it more and more difficult to work on these things. 

Shop manual says to access the ABS, remove one clip from the coolant reservoir and move it aside. Failed to mention, you have to slide it an inch forward first. But before you can do this, have to remove the battery first with a half dozen leads on it. Can see where this car can be a maintenance nightmare. Already thinking about trading it off.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Any newer car is a maintenance nightmare especially when you have to send an engineer out to a dealership.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Its the law, first problem is Dot 3 brake fluid is glycol based like anti-freeze, and as such leaves a scum on these eight valves. Without frequent flushing, can even lock up these valve and get no brakes at all. Been able to work around this on older vehicles because to really get air out of ABS module, could hot wire the pump and the valves.

No longer possible with this integrated unit, maybe my dealer will be nice and let me borrow his scanner. Still not happy with my brakes, but a bit worn out after seven long weeks of fighting this issue. So looking into repairing it myself. The fact that brake fluid is hygroscopic doesn't help either, but been this way for the last 80 years.

ABS will never replace studded snow tires, but again the law. 

By hot wiring the pump, use a DC supply for this, switch it on, have a clear tube running off the bleeder, make sure the master cylinder is topped off. open the bleeder, and in second can watch that fluid pump out until its bubble free and clean.

With the rear disks, kicking around if I want to paint them, or just lay out 240 bucks and buy brand new ones that are plated. Seems like a lot of money, but sure beats getting severely injured.

No, I am not pleased with the service I have received. Shouldn't have never been a problem in the first place. And going way to far with all this snap together stuff, when the only way to remove a component is to break it off.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

With dealer #2m brakes are just as bad as they were before. What's going on!!! Told me the rear calipers are made our of aluminum, not, made of a very poor grade of cast iron. Said the fluid came out clean, never touched the rear calipers, but did bleed the front ones. Last dealer didn't bleed properly, didn't touch any of the bleeders after changing the master cylinder.

Fluid from the rears is rusty, darn things are crap. Parking brake no longer adjusts the rear calipers, could feel clicks before, no more clicks. Coupled with the fact that pumping the brake pedal does bring the pedal up.


Not sure why not one but two dealers came to the same conclusion, and telling me these brakes are fine, when they are not. Won't be long before I don't have any brakes at all. Feel like I am dealing with a bunch of idiot kids.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Can't you show them how the parking brake handle and brake pedal feel on a new car vs yours and tell them to keep it until it feels the same? You could go as far as measuring pedal travel with a given amount of force.

I like the lawyer route suggested by Aussie (I think). If you can prove the EMERGENCY brake is no longer operational they would have to change the calipers.

If it makes you feel any better my drums are rusted all to heck and are starting to look really bad. They have a black, probably oxide of some sort, coating on them but it doesn't last well at all. For the cost of new drums I'm thinking about replacing them rather than going through the hassle of sanding/priming/painting them. A good coat of paint on the new drums would keep them looking good for a long time.

BTW, I just painted the calipers and rotor hats on our '11 BMW, they were getting pretty rusty looking. My wife, who pays more attention to just about anything more than she does cars, noticed this right away as soon as we put a nicer set of wheels on for the summer.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Blue Angel said:


> If it makes you feel any better my drums are rusted all to heck and are starting to look really bad.


Mine also, only lasted two winters.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> If you can prove the EMERGENCY brake is no longer operational they would have to change the calipers.


theyll determine the corrosion is due to road salt, et al and not be on the hook


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

boraz said:


> theyll determine the corrosion is due to road salt, et al and not be on the hook


I would think they would be liable. All chassis components should last the warranty period without rusting to the point their performance was compromised. The body has a 100k mile rust perforation warranty.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Went back to dealer #2, said hi John. Rear calipers are made of cast iron, pulled a bit of brake fluid out with my hand vacuum pump with a clear hose, is rusty. Pedal still goes over half way down, can be pumped up to get more like a full pedal, and the parking brake has no longer affect on the pad adjustment. What do you think John?

I will order new calipers, Nick, said John, do you want my phone number? No need Nick, I have it, will call you when they come in. We shook hands like when two gentlemen do when they make an agreement.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Nice! Let us know how it works out!


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

New rep is Augusta, called me yesterday morning, she called my dealer, one caliper came in, waiting for the other. Only comment that came to mind is those boats from China are slow. And hope these new calipers were made to GM specifications.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

I hope the new calipers last better, but the pessimist in me thinks they will probably be in the same shape as your originals after the same time period. I would keep a close eye on them and take matters into my own hands (paint them) at the first sign of any corrosion at all.


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## grs1961 (Oct 23, 2012)

NickD said:


> And hope these new calipers were made to GM specifications.


Shirley you mean "exceed GM specifications," given that he ones you are replacing were made to GM specifications!


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

grs1961 said:


> Shirley you mean "exceed GM specifications," given that he ones you are replacing were made to GM specifications!


If the originals were made to GM specs., he wouldn't be needing to have them replaced. Just because the originals got put on his car, doesn't mean they were in spec. My neighbor used to be a QC manager for TRW and they found an entire week's worth of brake pads from a supplier that contained 20% asbestos, way out of even federal specs. Nearly shut the Jeep plant down. Obviously, the tier2 supplier to TRW tried to pull a fast one on them. Yes, made in China. 

And don't call me Shirley.


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## pL2014 (Dec 29, 2013)

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

pL2014 said:


> Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines.


You and me both, picked a heck of a time to quit drinking, smoking, and chasing wild woman.

2012 Cruze's in the used parking section already? Heard about people trading in a new vehicle when the gas tank got empty, this is almost as ridiculous. More mileage than mine, but still with bright plated rear disk calipers.

Why me, God?

Maybe GM should transfer their many customer reps to an incoming inspection department, would save a lot of money.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

jim frye said:


> and don't call me shirley.




RIP Leslie


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

grs1961 said:


> Shirley you mean "exceed GM specifications," given that he ones you are replacing were made to GM specifications!


Feel Shirley is spelled Surely in the grammatical use of this word in this sentence.

Believe that I was the one called Shirley.

In regards to exceeding GM specifications, how about my company increasing the maximum operating temperature of a CS series voltage regulator from the specified 125*C to 195*C. We quickly learned the application can far exceed 170*C. But they still quit buying from us and went to China instead. Outbid us by a couple of cents, company is no more.

We had to pay city, county, state, and federal taxes, workman's compensation, share of health insurance, inventory is considered profit, extra taxes on this. Huge expense for liability insurance, fair competitive wages, meet ERA requirements. We insisted on plating key electrical connections, but the EPA would not let us do this here. So we had to ship our parts to Taiwan to get them plated. OSHA, EPA, ERA visited us frequently.

Not easy to do business in the USA. Owner gave up. We were named in several large lawsuits and had to defend ourselves, even though our product had nothing to do with an accident. We had to pay for our defense. Namely because, we had a couple of bucks. This is how this country has become.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

C'mon Nick,
It is so much easier just to say unions ran business out of the country! :grin:

Supplier I worked for made driveline components and aimed for a 250K mile life cycle, was said too much quality was bad as well.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Diesel Dan said:


> Supplier I worked for made driveline components and aimed for a 250K mile life cycle, was said too much quality was bad as well.


If it lasts forever we're not making it cheap enough!


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Ha, as an engineer, could get chewed out for over designing just as well as under designing. But under designing was safer as long as the warranty period was met. Or even if the warranty repair cost for those exceptions resulted in more profits by taking the cheaper route.

So developed a theory, a perfect design would be one where after a predetermined mileage or time limit was left. When that limit was met, the entire vehicle would simultaneously go up in a puff of smoke. Or more likely around here, after a vehicle is around 7-8 years old, a pile of rust.

Found a brand new pair of rear air shocks I had stored away and completely forgot about. Looked them up on rockauto, only had a couple left they were trying to sell for twenty bucks each. Fit many high end GM cars between 1985 and 2000. I tried to give them away for free to my GM dealer, he didn't want them. So I went to Carquest, after a bit of persuasion, they agreed to take them. Just wanted to get rid of them, manager recognized them, said they haven't carried these for the last seven years. I didn't want to fool around with craiglist or ebay for a couple of bucks.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

At my dealers now watching them install new plated calipers.


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

NickD said:


> At my dealers now watching them install new plated calipers.


43 days to a resolution. Your tenacity is to be commended.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Just checked the rear disc brakes on a guys '04 Blazer. 
Both caliper still good(aluminum) but one mounting bracket has sliders starting to seize up.
10yrs, 100K+ in the rust belt.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Diesel Dan said:


> Just checked the rear disc brakes on a guys '04 Blazer.
> Both caliper still good(aluminum) but one mounting bracket has sliders starting to seize up.
> 10yrs, 100K+ in the rust belt.


Time will tell, but these are definitely plated. Not quite sure about the bleeding process, plan on trying a vacuum bleeding tomorrow. Still feel some air was left in the system. Unlike other GM vehicle, reservoir is sitting right on top of the ABS module, so maybe air pockets own be much of a problem. No access to this pump, really needs a GM Tech2 scanner with an ABS module attached.

Then I like to check everything for proper torque.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

All the dealer did was swap out the old rusty calipers, get tired of moaning so decided to finish the job myself. Did request new pad holders, but was turned down. So soaked the old one in hydrochloric acid and painted them with 900*F caliper paint. This what they now look like. 

View attachment 104369


Heck, this is a daily driver, if doing a restoration, would have polished everything with 17 coats of lacquer. Did screw in the piston a half a turn to finally get clicks when operating the parking brake again. This took up the clearance. Used the vacuum method to bleed the brakes, got out more air bubbles.

Like I use to say, if you want to do anything yourself, have to do it alone or something like this. Then elected to do the same thing, but took some before photos.

View attachment 104377
View attachment 104385
View attachment 104393


Pad backing plated are painted with rust bubbles underneath, you can see on the clips, this is where this paint ended up. Then lots of rust inside of the pad holders. With the clips attached, leaves a space where salt can gather. These are the front plated pad holders.

The combination of these three factors result in jammed pads that cannot self center, took a block of wood and a hammer to get these pads out. After a good cleaning, painting, and using Permatex anti-seize as a the lubricant, could easily slide in the pads with my fingers. This is the way its suppose to be, and learned a long time agao, anti-seize is the very best lubricant that last for years. That black brake grease is worthless. Also found improperly torqued bolts, wasn't happy to find this, a screw was ready to all out. 

I did not have a full pedal when I left the dealer, but got one now, did request just to give me the new calipers and would do it myself.

Guess the way that saying goes, if you want a job done right, have to do it yourself. This is the end of a 2 1/2 month story.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Glad you goter all fixed up Nick!

Agree... most times you're better off doing things yourself.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

88 Supra used exactly the same kind of pad holder clips, and even got a negative report from CR for poor brakes.










So did the same thing to my Supra over 20 years ago I did to my Cruze yesterday. Honda also was having other shim problems. Supra never saw road salt, still hasn't.

Apparently the guys that designed the brakes on my 04 Cavalier was aware of these problem, came up with a much simpler design, used constantly in road salt, and even with 140K miles on it and over ten years later, still problem free.

I do not believe the guy that choose the Cruze brake design did his homework, but we have to pay the price. All Cruze's use front calipers, suggest you check yours.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Noticing with continuous driving the brake pedal is coming up pretty close where it use to be. Figure those remaining air bubbles are slowing coming back to the top. Maybe won't have to power bleed after all.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

A proper bleed is always a good idea. I bled mine and they definitely feel better.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Only proper bleed I now of with ABS is to run the ABS pump, sure made this impossible with the Cruze unless you have that GM scanner.

Pedal travel is 3 inches, came back from the dealer using up an inch and a half. Vacuum bleeding out 3/4 of a pint did raise that up to about a tad over 2", but slowly creeping up closer to the 2 1/2" mark.

Ha, at times wished I kept my 41 Chevy, still got me there just as fast as any other car, but never had problems like this.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Apparently the spark isn't doing much better in the front calipers.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

NickD said:


> Only proper bleed I now of with ABS is to run the ABS pump...
> 
> ...Vacuum bleeding...


Nick, you're right. The only way to completely and properly flush the brake system of old fluid is to cycle the ABS pump. However, unless you suspect air in the ABS controller, for the purpose of getting the brake feel back you should be able to accomplish this with a good four corner bleed.

Do you suspect they got air up into your ABS module when they changed the calipers?

WRT vacuum bleeding, I personally don't like that method. As soon as the bleeder screws are loose enough to allow fluid to flow, you are also letting air get in through the bleeder screw threads. The only way to keep that from happening is to wet the threads with brake fluid so air cannot get in, and that can make a mess (brake fluid is nasty stuff).

You can still get the volume of air out of the caliper/cylinder with vacuum bleeding, but you will almost always see a tiny trail of air bubbles in the fluid you're vacuuming out since it's leaking in through the threads. You can't quite be sure when you're done.

I bought a tapered rubber stopper with an air fitting on it and jam it into the reservoir opening. I put a tire valve on it and use a bike air pump with a bungee cord on it to apply pressure to the system. When you crack a bleeder screw the fluid flows out nice and quick, and when the air is gone the fluid comes out perfectly clear.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Merc6 said:


> Apparently the spark isn't doing much better in the front calipers.


Guess GM has found a new way to keep cost down.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Oh, and pedal travel depends on how hard you hit the brakes. 

I was in a panic stop situation at highway speed the other day. Even with a good brake bleed the pedal went almost all the way to the floor when I STOOD on it (no tire lockup or ABS activation, this car has pretty weak brakes overall). I pushed the pedal hard enough to find elasticity in the system, be it the rubber lines expanding, firewall flexing or whatever.

I couldn't have moved the pedal much farther before it hit the floor.

At lower speeds I've activated ABS before, but not so at highway speed. And this is with LRR tires.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> Oh, and pedal travel depends on how hard you hit the brakes.
> 
> I was in a panic stop situation at highway speed the other day. Even with a good brake bleed the pedal went almost all the way to the floor when I STOOD on it (no tire lockup or ABS activation, this car has pretty weak brakes overall). I pushed the pedal hard enough to find elasticity in the system, be it the rubber lines expanding, firewall flexing or whatever.
> 
> ...


Has anyone swapped out to stainless steel lines?


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Merc6 said:


> Has anyone swapped out to stainless steel lines?


I'm sure that would help, but I think it might be a waste on a car with rear drum brakes. I still think drums put a bit too much slop in a brake system. Part of me wonders how rigid a drum system can be, and on top of that, I'm not sure how rigid the front calipers are either. There can be a lot of weak points to look after on the way to braking nirvana...


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Blue Angel said:


> Nick, you're right. The only way to completely and properly flush the brake system of old fluid is to cycle the ABS pump. However, unless you suspect air in the ABS controller, for the purpose of getting the brake feel back you should be able to accomplish this with a good four corner bleed.
> 
> Do you suspect they got air up into your ABS module when they changed the calipers?
> 
> ...


Have to unscrew the bleeders several turns and put a bead of non-hardening Permatex gasket maker at the base at the bleeder before using vacuum. When you screw that bleeder back on, this stuff gets on the threads to prevent that air leak.

Another trick when changing the calipers is to get a stick of the right length and depress the brake pedal so the reservoir bleed holes are block. This prevents the ABS from draining. Can get air pockets in the pump vane that will never fill up. Also the Cruze dumped the proportioning valves for the rear brakes, using the two rear ABS valves to regulate the fluid flow.

All I could see after they worked on my Cruze were cleaning up brake fluid all over the floor, I hardly spill a drop.

Could see using a pure fluid pressure method to bleed the system from the reservoir, but sure don't want to pump in any air. But so much easier to run the pump. With older systems, not only had easy access to the pump wires, but all four valves as well. Call this history to save a few cents in production.

Sure that scanner is firing a code to the diagnostic plug, but to learn what that code is, would be easier to make an atomic bomb. Some guys had success with vacuum bleeding in a two step operation, bleed first, get on an icy road to activate the pump, then bleed again. Not easy to do this in the summer and sure don't want to wreck my Cruze on a loose gravel road.

For that coolant reservoir, put a pressure gauge in series with a regulator and a shut off valve with quick couplers on each end. Just got a reservoir cap and mounted a male quick coupler in it, glued and screwed kind of thing. Hit it with 25 psi and close the valve for a cheap means for a pressure tester. Saves paying a fortune for yet another pressure tester since these guys are changing the cap every five minutes.

Really making working on these things a b!tch, hope they are happy, I am not.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> I'm sure that would help, but I think it might be a waste on a car with rear drum brakes. I still think drums put a bit too much slop in a brake system. Part of me wonders how rigid a drum system can be, and on top of that, I'm not sure how rigid the front calipers are either. There can be a lot of weak points to look after on the way to braking nirvana...


Hah! 
You want a weak disc/drum setup? Try the low mileage 1980 Monza I bought. The Cruze feels like a Corvette with Brembos incomparison.
I feel like *Yosemite Sam, *"Whoa, mule, whoa!"


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

NickD said:


> Have to unscrew the bleeders several turns and put a bead of non-hardening Permatex gasket maker at the base at the bleeder before using vacuum. When you screw that bleeder back on, this stuff gets on the threads to prevent that air leak.


Excellent tip! I used brake fluid to wet the threads but that can get messy, and if the threads are too loose you'll let air in anyways. The gasket maker would seal much better.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

Diesel Dan said:


> Hah!
> You want a weak disc/drum setup? Try the low mileage 1980 Monza I bought. The Cruze feels like a Corvette with Brembos incomparison.
> I feel like *Yosemite Sam, *"Whoa, mule, whoa!"


I thought we were talking about rear disc calipers? This would mean an all disc set up, how did rear drums get into this? I have a diesel Cruze and the brakes are fine even after 2 years and the park brake is in the same position as when the car was new. The only brake system available in Australia is all disc on every model.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Aussie said:


> ...how did rear drums get into this?





Blue Angel said:


> ...I'm sure that would help, but I think it might be a waste on a car with rear drum brakes....


That was me, sorry! Back to disks!


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> Excellent tip! I used brake fluid to wet the threads but that can get messy, and if the threads are too loose you'll let air in anyways. The gasket maker would seal much better.


I use anti-seize on the threads when I vacuum bleed a system.
Good/bad, don't know but anecdotally haven't had any issues.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Wife and I wanted the 2LT, but was shaking my head and saying here we go again with combination rear disc calipers. Been having fits with these way overpriced calipers since 1978. 88 Supra does not have this problem using conventional type front calipers in the rear with an integrated drum for the parking brake function. Conventional calipers are inherently self adjustable and cheap to replace.

Wish the 2LT did come with rear drums, but from this board, not the kind they are using on the Cruze. But the kind they used on my 04 Cavalier. At around 55K miles, didn't want to self adjust anymore, so took them apart. Just needed a little cleaning and used anti-seize for the lubricant.

This was 90K miles ago, still working perfectly troublefree. Can see the dealers complaining about this, not enough service work.

Matter of fact car was practically trouble free, at 36,200 miles I had to replace the upper strut bearings, originals were not tempered nor greased. But for twenty bucks each, tempered this time, still not greased, did grease them, been troublefree ever since.

At 70K my wife forced the climate mode control, ha told her not to do this, but ten bucks and ten minutes later, the problem was fixed. At 85K miles, got a check engine lamp, problem was with the filler pipe being all rusty, tried to fight this with my dealer as a safety issue, but he wanted 160 bucks for a new filler. After I looked at it, metal was good, just sanded and painted it, been good ever since. Car still has the original exhaust system, but at 110K that steel band broke around the muffer, patched that and slapped some paint on it.

This was it besides tires, oil changes, and spark plugs. Can only hope the Cruze is this way.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Drove up ten miles to a small Chevy dealer, no appointment. Took me in instantly. Put a Midtronics GR8 battery tester and it printed out a ticket saying my battery is bad. Dealer immediately installed a brand new battery under warranty. Even let me back in there shop so I could observe.

Beginning to hate my in town dealers with all this worthless nonsense they have put me through. Guess who I am buying my next car from? Very friendly people and no BS.


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

NickD said:


> Drove up ten miles to a small Chevy dealer, no appointment. Took me in instantly. Put a Midtronics GR8 battery tester and it printed out a ticket saying my battery is bad. Dealer immediately installed a brand new battery under warranty. Even let me back in there shop so I could observe.
> 
> Beginning to hate my in town dealers with all this worthless nonsense they have put me through. Guess who I am buying my next car from? Very friendly people and no BS.


Quick! Name the dealer and town.


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## Merc6 (Jun 8, 2013)

Jim Frye said:


> Quick! Name the dealer and town.


Lol you ready to come back to the bow tie life? Wisconsin isn't that far a drive?


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Jim Frye said:


> Quick! Name the dealer and town.


Klemme Chevrolet Stratford, WI

Was several other Chevy owners there from my hometown also highly dissatisfied with the two GM dealers in our town. The service manager was teasing me for talking to an extremely beautiful young woman. Ha, just replied, young enough to be my granddaughter, she dropped out of college, was trying to encourage her to go back.

She was driving a 2013 pearl white Malibu with brake problems. I like that color. 

Service manager told me that the two GM dealers in my town also had that Midtronics GR8 that said my battery was good. So guessing, either they are dirty rotten liars or don't know how to push the button on it.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Here is part of the ticket that Midtronics GR8 printed out, rest is personal information of no interest to you unless you want to send me money.

View attachment 115098


As you can see, says to replace the battery. Understand all GM dealers are suppose to have this tester, if you have battery problems, ask for this ticket. Dealer had no problem in giving this to me.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Conducted the same test with this new battery, instead of drawing 1.9 amps when fully charged, only drawing 0.012 amperes. Can live with this.

Wondering about this anti-thief device with the doors locks, draws a pulse of about a quarter of an ampere every couple of seconds. I didn't haul my integrating scope out to measure the average current with a current probe. But convinced the battery life when parked will be much shorter with the doors locked.

Often made the comment with anti-thief historically, far more effective to prevent the rightful owner from starting their vehicles than to prevent thief. And as the vehicle ages, if a thief does manage to steal your car with anti-thief problems, will be doing you a great favor. Now he/she has your problems.

And why the gear shift and steering wheel lock on top of this? Even more problems.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Did the 3rd vacuum bleeding on this thing today with the bleeder threads sealed with non-hardening Permatex. Followed the rr, fl, rl,fr sequence. Got quite of few bubbles from the rr and fl diagonal, but just a few from the other side. Used a half a quart of new DOT 3 brake fluid. Stuff that came wasn't exactly clean, is now.

Logic behind this, each time the car is started and hits around 6 mph, the ABS pump kicks on and hopefully will run the air bubbles down stream so the vacuum can draw it out. Works, because I finally have a full brake pedal again.

Thoughts are, would have been much simpler if Wheeler or Gross gave me the new calipers so I could install them myself. Both dealers refused to use the recommended shop manual ABS GMTechII procedure and would not loan this piece of equipment to me. So screw these basterds,never going back and sure won't get any good recommendations from me.

Been screwing around with these brakes since Memorial day, but these shops are liars when Patsy told me, the dealers make the decision as to whether a component is defective or not. Then the workmanship they finally did do, was terrible. Don't need this in my life.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

I always do my own work whenever possible. I get the service I want and I know it's done right. My labor rates are very reasonable too.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Blue Angel said:


> I always do my own work whenever possible. I get the service I want and I know it's done right. My labor rates are very reasonable too.


Even under warranty? Never had any problems under warranty with any other vendor, just tell them the problem I am having with a particular component, send me out a new part at no charge, and install it myself. With an expensive defective component, they pay for return shipping if they want the old one back.

Heating contractor is wonderful in this respect, purchased a high efficiency furnace from him and wanted to install it myself to save 3,000 bucks. But he said to get the ten year all part warranty, would have to come out an inspect the installation. Said he never saw such a neat installation. Some rather expensive parts quit working, just took them back and exchanged them for new improved ones. 

I knew right away my rear disc calipers were bad, a pile of rust and you could even see the excessive gap in the rear pads. And no amount of working the parking brake would close that gap. Dang idiots said this is not my problem and changed practically everything else before I had a long discussion with a high level GM rep. No only Wheeler, but Gross as well.

The other characteristic is that with excessive gap and a lot brake pedal, before coming to a stop, could pump the brake pedal up to get could braking, and did this for a couple of months. But then when they finally changed them, left a lot of air in the system. But with air in the system, can pump that pedal all day and still wouldn't come up.

Complained about this several times to each of these dealers, refused to do anything about it. Darn pedal was going clear to the floor. So had no choice but to do it myself. This last time, left the engine off with the ignition switch on. Could hear the rear valves buzzing for just the rear brakes, forgot about this trick with ABS. But vacuum bleeding does work, but have to do it at least three times.

Already know how to change rear disc calipers without draining the ABS, apparently these idiots don't know how. Sure about not to pay for an extended warranty.

Was the same problem with the battery failing to hold a charge with these two idiot dealers, least I found a good one. Other choice was to lay out 175 bucks for a new battery. But why, when this one is covered under warranty.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Yep, if the parts cost less than $50 I would rather just do it myself. My dealer won't schedule an appointment, they want you to drop the car for a whole day and use their shuttle service, even just to get something looked at, so a fix is most likely a two day ordeal. Add to that the misery accompanied with leaving your car in someone else's "care", and I'd rather just do it myself.

So far I've replaced my coolant reservoir and cap (~$45), the brake vacuum pump switch ($25), and the clutch pedal return spring ($2).

The clutch pedal spring was a good one. I got looking at what it would take to replace the clutch pedal assembly (you have to do the whole unit, the spring isn't available separately), and it's a huge job. It took some creativity to get the spring in there without taking half the car apart, but I did it. A local hardware store had a suitable spring in a two pack for $4.

Next up is the coolant vent tube that runs from the cylinder head water outlet to the coolant reservoir. It's not leaking but it smells like coolant near the lower connection. It's not even worth the time to ask them about replacing it, just gonna do it myself while I have the coolant drained installing my block heater.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Power steering gear, 807 bucks plus shipping.










Two rear disc calipers, 120 bucks each.










Vacuum pump, 160 bucks










Vacuum brake booster, 105 bucks.










Master cylinder is 76 bucks, rockauto.com prices for the preceding.











Would take an effort to find the cost of the driver's side window weather strip and the vacuum motor switch assembly, but think that was around 160 bucks at dealers prices. Good battery is 175 bucks. Two step relay for the trunk listed at 88 bucks, found six push pin rivets missing, dealers price was around $4.86 each.

Was lucky to find an OE fog lamp kit on ebay for 130 bucks plus some other items. But as you can see for needed parts, adds up in a hurry. Only three months left on my bumper to bumper warranty, really doubt if I will hit that 36,000 mile mark.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Did the fog lamp kit myself for less than half what my dealer would have charged me to do it.

As for the rest of your repairs, yeah, I think I'd be going to the dealer for most of that. I guess I've been fortunate, I've only had a few minor issues with my car.

The parts guys look at you funny when you're ordering parts for a car that's still under warranty.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Next up is the coolant vent tube that runs from the cylinder head water outlet to the coolant reservoir. It's not leaking but it smells like coolant near the lower connection. It's not even worth the time to ask them about replacing it, just gonna do it myself while I have the coolant drained installing my block heater.[/QUOTE]

Glad to see the block heater may still be in the works! Now I noticed that there is a service bulletin out to discuss with customers about low levels of heat. The Cruze is simply a very efficient vehicle, and no repair required. Don't forget the coolant outlet gasket at the lower connection. I believe it's avalible at Rockauto. Would that hose back to the surge tank leak? I guess anything is possible. 

So far drying and replacing the cap has worked, but I think a new radiator cap is in my future.


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## The_Madcat (Oct 6, 2012)

carbon02 said:


> The Cruze is simply a very efficient vehicle, and no repair required.


I would have to disagree with that statement. It is indeed an issue. It's the reason I won't recommend the car to friends in this climate zone (Wisconsin). Had I test driven one in wintery conditions, I would not have purchased it myself. Last winter was **** and I am sure this one will be too as the only way this car heats up is on the highway. Since I live and work in town, it will NEVER reach full operating temps in colder weather (below and around freezing pt). In fact, if I have the fan speed set to the second notch, and I am doing 25-35 in town, I can watch the heat gauge go down at stop signs. I realize it is only a 1.4l engine but if you are going to market this thing to cold weather areas, it had better have some heat. It is an issue that DOES need repair/fixing.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Blue Angel said:


> Did the fog lamp kit myself for less than half what my dealer would have charged me to do it.
> 
> The parts guys look at you funny when you're ordering parts for a car that's still under warranty.


Have to talk to the service manager first, checks my FBI file in his computer and reads my odometer. Then he sends me to the parts guy.

Can do some things to a car, like a complete ground up restoration. I did sell my valve grinder and distributor tester a few years back, running out of space. 608/609 certified for AC work, know how blue a ring gear for proper adjustment. Have a machine lathe and milling machine to make hard to find parts. Huge pile of electronic test equipment. Been doing this for the last 65 years.

With connections, could get lots of parts for free, call them engineering samples. Also was on the GM site to download firmware. But all this is history, now have to suffer like everyone else. 

What really hurts is when you know what it cost to manufacture this stuff, and what you have to pay for it.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

The _madCat-

I totally agree that the heat is bad, yet we have seen no improvement with it. I have noticed that as the coolant temperature drops on the DIC display (I have the digital reading before it was removed.) the car tends to attempt to compensate via running richer, but simply in a Minnesota or Wisconsin winter I don't think it does as well as it could. 

I think ultimately it will be up to us Cruze fans to attempt a solution. Other than the oil pan heater, which Blue Angel did a write up on, no one has done a coolant heater to heat the block on a 1.4L.

I was just simply amazed when I read AllData and there was a Campaign on customer complains about low heat, and they selected to address it the way they did.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

Does the diesel have heater problems as well in winter? I haven't heard anybody in Australia have any problem with being cold in their Cruze, I guess our milder climate doesn't show up these problems. Still people who live in snowy areas don't seem to have any problems either.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

The diesel in the USA has a really large battery, and actually has an electric heating element to heat the air thats used inside the cabin. I haven're researched it, but I believe it's an electric to air type exhanger. If there were more diesels on the roads in the States I'd consider trying to get that thpe of heater to work in a petrol car, but parts at the scrap yard for CTD's are going to be hard to find! 

It's not uncommon in Minnesota and Wisconsin to see the equivalent of -30 to -40C temps in the winter. I would say it's possible to get weeks of temperature around -20C. That makes driving the 1.4L pretty difficult.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

carbon02 said:


> The diesel in the USA has a really large battery, and actually has an electric heating element to heat the air thats used inside the cabin. I haven're researched it, but I believe it's an electric to air type exhanger. If there were more diesels on the roads in the States I'd consider trying to get that thpe of heater to work in a petrol car, but parts at the scrap yard for CTD's are going to be hard to find!
> 
> It's not uncommon in Minnesota and Wisconsin to see the equivalent of -30 to -40C temps in the winter. I would say it's possible to get weeks of temperature around -20C. That makes driving the 1.4L pretty difficult.


This morning the temperature in the area I work was 8C at 12:30am when I finished my shift and I did enjoy the seat heater until my engine was warm enough to take over. Took about 5 minutes before I turned the seat off. Would heating the seats be expensive in the 1.4T?


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

Yes, an unfortunate side effect of a very efficient and tiny engine is a lack of waste heat to use for cabin heat. It isn't so much a defect, but maybe an Engineering oversight/compromise that swings the wrong way for those in colder climates.

I've read that the next gen small GM engines will use an integrated exhaust manifold, meaning the manifold (or at least part of it) will be a part of the cylinder head casting. This will pull extra heat from the exhaust, cutting warm up times and providing extra cabin heat.

As with most things, there are trade-offs. They can only pull so much extra heat from the exhaust on a cold start without negatively affecting cold start emissions (slower cat warm up and/or a need to run richer), and all that extra heat will need to be dissipated through the rad when the car is warm and operating in hot climates, which drives larger radiators, more cooling airflow and poorer aerodynamics. Higher flowing water pumps, higher pressure cooling systems, the list grows and grows.

As things get more efficient it's always tougher to check all the boxes and make a fool proof car that operates flawlessly for all people under all conditions. We're in a period of rapid evolution that will last comfortably past 2025, when the CAFE requirements settle down. I'm willing to bet the heater in the next Cruze will work much better.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

I wonder why they don't just make the a/c reverse cycle and save on all that extra plumbing for the heater? Remember how the 1980's J car had a radiator and evaporator side by side? This way the a/c won't affect engine cooling and allow better control. I am not an engineer but surely this could be made to work?


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Aussie said:


> I wonder why they don't just make the a/c reverse cycle and save on all that extra plumbing for the heater? Remember how the 1980's J car had a radiator and evaporator side by side? This way the a/c won't affect engine cooling and allow better control. I am not an engineer but surely this could be made to work?


Heat pumps are crap in below freezing temps - the air coming out of the vents would never be warm enough to quickly warm the interior of a car. 

The electric heater like they use in the US diesel is probably the best way to supplement heating. Idk how I fee about having coolant go through the exhaust manifold (think I read they were trying out that somewhere) - the Series II GM 3800s were enough of a nightmare with their intake manifold gaskets.


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> the Series II GM 3800s were enough of a nightmare with their intake manifold gaskets.


That is because you put them in the car wrong, they should fit like this!

View attachment 116241


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Aussie said:


> That is because you put them in the car wrong, they should fit like this!
> 
> View attachment 116241


Agreed!

The overseas markets usually get the cool stuff though


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Really no complaints on the Cruze MVAC system. Had to run down to Milwaukee at the beginning of this year to pick up my wife and daughter when it was -27*F. Was getting decent heat through the first 3 miles in the city, but when I hit interstate speeds, jumped up to 221*F on the DIC and held good all the way.

What a night that was, NY had a major snow storm canceling many flights, only flight they could get back arrived at 1:00AM in the morning. Made it back home at 5:00AM, traffic was kind of light.

Good idea to go on recir mode in this kind of weather, we were as warm as toast, had to cut the heat.

If I wanted another gas guzzling V-8, would have purchased one. Hate giving any more money to the oil companies than I have too.


Ha, my first three cars didn't even have any heaters, first car with heater was a 41 Chevy, every fought to sit in the front passenger seat, everyone else froze to death. With only alcohol available for a coolant back then, 160*F thermostat was the maximum one could use.


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Aussie said:


> That is because you put them in the car wrong, they should fit like this!
> 
> View attachment 116241


Holden seems to have made some cool cars. The last few years of the Pontiac brand existance they were "rebadging" Holden cars. There's a few 2008-2010 Commodore Pontiac G8's in my area that are really sharp collectors cars. I believe the very last Pontiac G6 was also a Holden body style. Granted it was only sold for 6-10 months as a "half year model" but it looked so much better than the G6 model that dominates the American roads.

Not sure if these cars were built by Holden and shipped as complete cars to the US, or shipped as a kit, and assembled in a US factory. Either way some neat limited production cars that should have seen longer runs!


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## Aussie (Sep 16, 2012)

carbon02 said:


> Holden seems to have made some cool cars. The last few years of the Pontiac brand existance they were "rebadging" Holden cars. There's a few 2008-2010 Commodore Pontiac G8's in my area that are really sharp collectors cars. I believe the very last Pontiac G6 was also a Holden body style. Granted it was only sold for 6-10 months as a "half year model" but it looked so much better than the G6 model that dominates the American roads.
> 
> Not sure if these cars were built by Holden and shipped as complete cars to the US, or shipped as a kit, and assembled in a US factory. Either way some neat limited production cars that should have seen longer runs!


G6 had nothing to do with Holden. Here is a pic of the car the engine is in (4 door gto to you). The silver car parked behind it is a VE commodore that the G8 is based on and later on morphed into the VF Commodore and Chevy SS. The GTO, G8 and SS are all Australian built but GM is closing all Australian production in 2017. With both Ford and Toyota closing down there will no longer be any cars built in Australia.
View attachment 116369


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

"June 9 (Bloomberg) -- Mexico’s share of North American auto production may rise at a quicker pace as General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group LLC seek out workers making less than 10 percent of what their U.S. counterparts earn. 
The lower labor costs may help the U.S. companies build smaller cars profitably amid demand for fuel-efficient vehicles in the wake of last year’s recession. Mexico’s gains will come at the expense of workers in the U.S. and Canada, said Dennis DesRosiers, president of DesRosiers Automotive Consulting Inc."

From GM, Ford Accelerate Shift to Mexico Workers Making $26 a Day - Bloomberg

But also heard this on PBS news, cost of shipping cars from China is getting too expensive and Mexico is just across the border.

Can a guy support a family on four bucks an hour? Ha, if you can, may want to move down there.

Willing to bet that the sticker prices won't go down. Think they call this greed. Least you can buy a low grade antibiotic drug without a prescription. Here you have to pay a quack doctor 460 bucks to prescribe it,


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## mbushen1 (Oct 15, 2014)

Anybody know what part # 14 is & what does it do?


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

mbushen1 said:


> Anybody know what part # 14 is & what does it do?


You mean from this drawing?










Part 14 is a dampener, suppose to retard vibrations on the rear disc calipers when the brakes are first applied to prevent squeal.

The reason for this vibration is that the ABS modulates the rear brake calipers to eliminate the need for the older conventional proportional valves. You can actually feel this vibration with the key on engine off with someone slowly applying the brakes.

Modulation of the rear brakes, is suppose to reduce the vehicle cost by eliminating the need for proportioning valves. But this cost was countered by the addition of these dampeners. If this makes any sense to you, you can try to explain it to me. 

Dampeners were not required on rear disc calipers when proportioning valves. So what do we have? A far more complicated system, if the ABS craps out for any reason, won't have any proportioning at all. Rear wheels can lock up and cause a spin. Plus they stick way out, are low and can be broken off by an obstacle on the road.

Don;t ask my dealers what these things are for, don't even know the simple test to show that the calipers are no longer adjusting.


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## Diesel Dan (May 18, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> As for the rest of your repairs, yeah, I think I'd be going to the dealer for most of that.


Most of the stuff he had replaced was still functioning properly however.



The_Madcat said:


> I can watch the heat gauge go down at stop signs. I realize it is only a 1.4l engine but


Sounds like everyone of my Diesel pickups. Even with the block heater plugged in for 8 hrs it would take miles on interstate to get heat. I could go 2 miles before the temp gauge first moved. And yes had to deal with -20 to -30*F in NW WI for a few years. A friend of ours has a 1.4T Cruze up in New Richmond WI and I haven't heard any complaints.

I can see how a small fuel efficient engine creates little extra heat.
Back to cardboard or winter radiator covers I guess.


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