# tweeter crossover settings



## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm going active with my stock speakers, 70w rms (assuming a 4ohm load) into each driver

Has anyone played around with crossover settings for the tweeters? My hpf ranges from 400-4000 and I planned on starting at 4k and coming down, but I wondered if anyone had already done this 

Thanks


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> I'm going active with my stock speakers, 70w rms (assuming a 4ohm load) into each driver
> 
> Has anyone played around with crossover settings for the tweeters? My hpf ranges from 400-4000 and I planned on starting at 4k and coming down, but I wondered if anyone had already done this
> 
> Thanks


You're in for a world of fun. 

If you want to find a crossover point, you need an RTA rig (measurement mic and mic pre-amp) that you can use to measure frequency response and harmonic distortion. Otherwise, it's just a shot in the dark. 

Stock speakers aren't very good. Actually let me clarify...they're terrible.

70W RMS is overkill. Those tweeters won't take more than 5W best case without distorting, and those door speakers will take maybe 20W at the limits of their nonlinear suspension.

I would invest in a pair of decent tweeters and woofers. I have one that I measured recently that is very affordable and performs excellently. 

What slopes do you have available for your crossover?

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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

well I've been putting 70rms into each side for a while with no issues, and I really want to push them as far as I can without replacing them. I have a set of Focal tweeters to put in eventually, and will probably get some home audio mids for the doors eventually...

as for slopes, 12db is all i get, not adjustable on the amp.

I don't have access to an RTA so i'll just trial and error it until it works for me.


and the stock speakers aren't that bad once you get some juice in them, in fact I'd imagine mine right now sound better than anyone who's replaced their stockers without amping them


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> well I've been putting 70rms into each side for a while with no issues, and I really want to push them as far as I can without replacing them. I have a set of Focal tweeters to put in eventually, and will probably get some home audio mids for the doors eventually...
> 
> as for slopes, 12db is all i get, not adjustable on the amp.
> 
> ...


To be clear, you're not *giving* 70W RMS, but rather making it available. High frequencies will use less power than lower frequencies. I can make your ears bleed with 20W on a pair of tweeters, but that will do absolutely nothing for any given number of subwoofers that match that same efficiency. Trust me, those tweeters aren't getting more than 5W of power.

12db is better than the 6db that the tiny capacitor gives that tweeter, and is most likely the biggest reason why it sounds better. The harmonic distortion caused by a shallow slope will make the biggest difference in this scenario. 

Trust me, they're bad. I measured them with the stock system, and unless you have some impressive equalization going on, they are still bad. Here's the frequency response of the stock system:










With a 12db slope, I'd look into crossover points of no lower than 3000hz. 

I'll see if I can find one of my old ones and hook it up to the WT3 to see what the impedance profile looks like. Frequency response alone doesn't look promising. 

The midwoofers themselves are designed for low power, high sensitivity applications. They have a soft suspension, but nonlinear that stiffens up at higher excursion levels to prevent damage. Basically, you will only get them to go so loud in the bass region, and after that point, you can keep giving them power but you won't get any additional output and will only start increasing distortion. The small dust cap will limit cone breakup to high frequencies in the 5000hz range, which should be muffled fairly well due to their off-axis nature, but they're still not very good and have a fairly weak motor (despite being neodymium), so they'll lack clarity at anything past moderate volumes. 

What midwoofers did you have in mind? I'm currently using the 6.5" Silver Flute. Prior to that, I ran the Dayton DA-175s for about 2 months but got sick of the ringing they exhibited above 1000hz. The wool/paper cones on the Silver Flutes are so much nicer sounding. It is without any doubt the best driver you can get for $30.


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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

I was looking at vifa, scans and seas, but after some research tonight the Hat Imagine 2 way kit may be better for me as i can pick up locally and they have amazing reviews


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> I was looking at vifa, scans and seas, but after some research tonight the Hat Imagine 2 way kit may be better for me as i can pick up locally and they have amazing reviews


Who made those reviews? People who measure speakers, design crossovers, publish frequency response, harmonic distortion, and specific T/S parameters, and have extensive experience with speaker design and crossovers, or people who don't know the difference between a butterworth, and a linkwitz-riley filter and couldn't explain the meaning of power response if you asked them to?

Always consider who it is that's reviewing the items you're about to purchase. I've heard people rave over and over again about parts that I wouldn't even give a chance in my car. I've silenced quite a few bragging mouths with under 5 minutes of music playback in my own car. In the sub-$1000 (total install cost) range, the systems I've designed and installed set a standard to be followed because of my attention these kinds of details. 

Anything you buy that's car audio related will have a markup in price because of the fact that it's labeled for car audio. That doesn't mean it's any better. 

Spend some time learning how to build home theater speakers, and you'll never again purchase a single driver that you can't get technical information for. "Great reviews" is a terrible reason to buy any audio component. I can't tell you how many terrible products in the home and car audio world were reviewed very favorably but perform absolutely terribly. If I can't find at minimum T/S parameters and a frequency response chart, I'm not wasting my money on it. 

Which *specific *Vifa, Scans, and Seas drivers were you looking at? All three of those companies make a wide range of audio components. 

The Silver Flute makes the driver in the HAT Imagine 2 6.5" look like a child's toy. $289 for a component set with a cast ABS frame? Need I say more? At that price, I'd expect an aluminum frame at minimum, as well as gold-plated push terminals and full T/S specifications. One thing you learn in over the years of speaker design is that the price of a given speaker often has absolutely no correlation with its performance or quality. 

I'll give you an example. Take the DA-175. On the offset, it looks like a decent driver. Stamped steel frame is a bit cheap, but the frequency response looks alright up to 2500hz, the motor strength is decently high, and the bass output is impressive. For ~$30, it's hard to call it a bad driver. Bring in a driver like the 6.5" Silver Flute however for that same $30, and you have a cast aluminum frame, a stronger motor, a lower moving mass, a higher power handling, and vastly improved clarity and frequency response above 1000hz. Suddenly, the DA-175 looks like a $15 driver. 

Want the best sound quality possible? Focus on tuning and system design, not on the cost of individual parts. The quality of individual parts will, no doubt, make a large difference, but price is not directly correlated to quality, and at the end of the day, your ability to tune to your specific vehicle will make all the difference. I've recommended the miniDSP for a proper Active setup in the past due to its ability to select both BW and LR crossover slopes up to 48db/octave, offer you 18 parametric equalizers per channel (left and right), and allow you to adjust time alginment in increments of .02ms for each individual driver. A total component cost of $290 including the miniDSP with the Silver Flutes and a nice Vifa tweeter will make that HAT kit look like a steamy turd. There's simply no competition.


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## 1990tsi (Apr 29, 2011)

I'll look into the miniDSP, I spend a lot of time on DIYMA and havn't really noticed that come up a lot, although it does sound familiar. 

I do need a processor of some sorts, the shop I deal with says arc has one coming out pretty soon that should do everything I need, no idea on cost yet, but they're very excited about it. 

Thanks for the long posts, lots of great information in them, I'm glad someone as knowlegable as you is in the cruze world!


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

1990tsi said:


> I'll look into the miniDSP, I spend a lot of time on DIYMA and havn't really noticed that come up a lot, although it does sound familiar.
> 
> I do need a processor of some sorts, the shop I deal with says arc has one coming out pretty soon that should do everything I need, no idea on cost yet, but they're very excited about it.
> 
> Thanks for the long posts, lots of great information in them, I'm glad someone as knowlegable as you is in the cruze world!


I think I know which ARC unit you're talking about, as I've heard a few people talk about it as well. Expect north of $500 for just the processor. The miniDSP, the miniDC, and a plugin will run you just under $150 shipped. I haven't yet seen anything out there that comes even close.


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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> "Great reviews" is a terrible reason to buy any audio component.


So, based on that logic, buying anything you suggest would fall under the same category. 

1990tsi,

Buy what your ears like. It's as simple as that. You can either try to audition speakers before you buy them at a retail location and hope they sound as good in your car as they did on the sound board, or find an retailer who will accept a return/exchange if you're not 100% satisfied with the speakers. 

Everyone's brain accepts and perceives sound differently. Ever notice how some people cringe at the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard, while others just laugh at those people (because they're the person rubbing their fingernails on the chalkboard LOL). It's all perception.

Just like there are some singers' voices that just send a chill down your spine, while there are some you could listen to for hours.

E.G., I can't stand Reba McEntire (my wife loves her music). Not only because she sings country music, but her voice just makes me cringe every time I hear her. I don't care how much you try to flatten the frequencies the RTA tells you are peaky and dippy, the only way you'll get that woman's voice to keep me from running and screaming like a raped school girl is to completely eliminate her voice from the song.

Years ago I had a local audio shop analyze my system in my '92 Camaro, and using an Alpine 3331 EQ (which I already had installed), set the freq to "flat". The "loudness" on the head unit was switched off and the bass, midrange and treble settings in the head unit were set to flat. They only used the EQ (11 band, ±12 db per band) which also had an active two-way infinitely variable HP/LP crossover for the subs (18 db/octave), and a volume level for the subs (0 to +15dB).

They did a great job of getting it pretty close to "flat", and showed me the results as I watched them. I gave it about 2-3 days (1 hr commute to work, 1 hr home) and I couldn't stand it anymore. To me it sounded like an AM radio. I ended up putting it back to were I liked it. My ears didn't like the way they had set it. 

They're my ears and only I know what my ears like. There isn't a chart or machine (computer/RTA or whatever you want to call it) out there that can convince me that something "sounds good" just because it says it should. 

I researched why that was and found out, our ears don't perceive the "volume" of frequencies equally. This is a chart that shows how much of an SPL increase is needed for us to think the frequencies are equally "loud".












Notice how, at lower spl levels, we don't hear bass and treble as equally as we do @ 1kHz (the "medium" of our hearing range). Had I known then what I know now, I'd have simply hit the loudness button on my head unit and probably made up for the "loss" in bass and treble. 
LOL

Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Actually, the differences between speakers I was referring to has nothing to do with frequency response. Its a matter of clarity and distortion.

Also higher frequencies sound louder than lower ones as you increase volumes. Treble will sound louder than mids, mids will sound louder than bass. For "loud" sq systems, most people will quiet down their tweeters for this reason. Ever heard people say you have to give a set of speakers some real power to make them sound good? That's why. Human ears are more sensitive to higher frequencies. 

You can buy whatever parts tickle your fancy if you don't really care about the difference between a Polk midbass and a Scanspeak midbass. If you do want to get the best bang for your buck and the best sounding speakers your money can buy, you'll need more to go off of than some online reviews saying they "sound good." 

With the right combination of drivers and tuning, your problem switches from how good your speakers sound to how well recorded your songs are. My biggest problem in the Cruze is running into songs that are poorly recorded or compressed. They are very revealing of bad recordings.

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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

> Actually, the differences between speakers I was referring to has nothing to do with frequency response. Its a matter of clarity and distortion.


Exactly, which is why I suggested he use his ears. 



> If you do want to get the best bang for your buck and the best sounding speakers your money can buy, you'll need more to go off of than some online reviews saying they "sound good."


Which is why I told him to use his ears.

The only reason I mentioned my experience with an RTA and freq response is because the question began as what cut-off freq to use on tweeters. You mentioned it would require things like " ... "

It wasn't a reference to what speakers to buy.

I'm just giving my opinion of how audio can be done if someone doesn't have the means or desire to analyze their system with devices such as an RTA, DSP, or whatever else. In the end, it's "my ears" that will determine if "my system" sounds good to me, or not.

You and I don't agree on some things related to car audio. At least we can agree on that. You're an analyst, I'm someone that likes to keep things simple. You may think I'm wrong or not getting "the best bang for your buck" or "the best sounding speakers your money can buy", but as long as I like my system, then that is what matters.

Just like you think the Cruze is a decent car. Others don't. You can try to convince them 'til you're blue in the face, but if they don't think it's a good car, it isn't (to them). I can't stand the Cruze. It's my wife's car. It's what she wanted, not me. It handles and rides like crap, to me. Etc., etc. I think you get my point. 

Also, keep in mind, I'm not critisizing anything you do, or not saying that you're not good at what you do. There are obviously those that appreciate it, and you're a true philanthropist. LOL


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

amalmer71 said:


> Exactly, which is why I suggested he use his ears.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will be sad if you ever leave this forum. You're one of a few people who I can debate with intelligently, and dispite disagreeing completely, still leave by shaking virtual hands. ccasion14:


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## amalmer71 (Apr 5, 2012)

Meh.

If everyone thought the same way the world would be a boring place.

Just don't start calling me intelligent. Them's fightin' words. :shoot:


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