# Winter Tires



## Cartwright4 (Oct 4, 2013)

It'll still be a month or so til I think about putting on winter tires, but I'm definitely starting to shop around. What are your thoughts on a good set of winter tires for a 2013 Cruze?


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## jstoner22 (Aug 21, 2012)

I'd 100% recommend Michelin X-ice 3's.
I purchased them for my Cruze right when they were released last winter, and am thoroughly happy with them.

Only time will tell, but they apparently will maintain their abilities right down to 4/32". Most winter tires performance drop off well before this, leading to less usable seasons on your car.

Review: Michelin X-Ice Xi3 - Driving Impressions
Review: Michelin X-Ice Xi3
Tire Review: Michelin X-ICE Xi3 - Autos.ca


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

X-ice or Blizzaks are some of the best you can buy.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Nokian if you can find them. 

Pricey Finnish winter tire that consistently is at the top of the pack. The model to look for is Hakkapeliitta 7 for studded or Hakkapeliitta R2 for studless. 

If you can't find them, or they don't fit your budget the Micheline Xice3 is almost as good in the studless category.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Tomko said:


> Nokian if you can find them.
> 
> Pricey Finnish winter tire that consistently is at the top of the pack. The model to look for is Hakkapeliitta 7 for studded or Hakkapeliitta R2 for studless.
> 
> If you can't find them, or they don't fit your budget the Micheline Xice3 is almost as good in the studless category.


What is the price on Nokians in general, on a 16" rim? 

For comparison purposes, I was able to get all 4 Blizzaks installed, mounting and balancing and tax included, for under $500.


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## 2013LT (Jul 3, 2013)

Be careful with studded tires. They are illegal in a lot of places (Where I live in Southern Ontario and tons of other areas)


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

nokian hakkapeliitta 7 studded tires on my diesel cruze


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

bought the General tires from tire rack. They got excellent reviews from actual Canadian drivers and they are made in Germany. $68 each!


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

My set of Nokian Hakka R snow tires in 215/60-16 was ~$700 installed 2 years ago. I've put over 20k miles on those tires, and they still have 7/32" of tread left. They also did not ding my fuel economy any over my OEM Goodyear AFM's. Between the wear, the fantastic road manners, and the fantastic snow performance, those snow tires are a hard act to follow. 

When I looked at General Altimax Arctics, they were only $30/tire cheaper than the Nokians I got. In the 20k miles I've put on them, I've likely saved at least that much in gas.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> What is the price on Nokians in general, on a 16" rim?
> 
> For comparison purposes, I was able to get all 4 Blizzaks installed, mounting and balancing and tax included, for under $500.


Here in America, Nokian is more of a craft operation than mass market. They don't compete on price and they refuse to sell through Tire Rack. They're a little like Amsoil in their approach. If you're savvy enough to know about them, and can find them, they'll cost you accordingly. 

Blizzak on the other hand is a brand from Bridgestone / Firestone and competes in the mass market on price and their brand name. People I know with Blizzak are loyal to the brand but observe that the tires wear quickly. Sometimes in only two winters. In European testing they come up below Michelin and Nokian, but above Goodyear.


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## Cartwright4 (Oct 4, 2013)

I've done a bit of research today and I can get the Nokian's here in Ottawa, however the dealer I found them on didn't provide a price online. Snow is tough here, but good on ice is just as important as freezing rain can happen often. Will definitely look at Nokian prices in the near future. I don't put a ton of mileage on my car, so should be good to get a few seasons out of any winter tire, but of course the longer lasting the better.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Tomko said:


> Here in America, Nokian is more of a craft operation than mass market. They don't compete on price and they refuse to sell through Tire Rack. They're a little like Amsoil in their approach. If you're savvy enough to know about them, and can find them, they'll cost you accordingly.
> 
> Blizzak on the other hand is a brand from Bridgestone / Firestone and competes in the mass market on price and their brand name. People I know with Blizzak are loyal to the brand but observe that the tires wear quickly. Sometimes in only two winters. In European testing they come up below Michelin and Nokian, but above Goodyear.


This is an area of concern for me. With wear come traction, from my experience. Tread design will only get you so far. 

When discussing ultimate traction with regard to cornering ability, emergency maneuvers, and stopping distance, would a Blizzak with a far softer tread compound (ultimately the cause of their low mileage rating) not perform better in those regards? I see the Nokian as more of a northern climate all-weather tire that outperforms any other "all season" tire on the market than a dedicated snow and ice tire. 

I have two winters on a set of Blizzaks I used on my 95 Regal and have at least 2 more left in them. Of course, mileage will vary depending on how often snow is on the ground compared to dry pavement, and how cold the winter is overall. I swap mine on as soon as the temperatures hit freezing during the day and take them off as soon as it starts warming up.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Cartwright4 said:


> I've done a bit of research today and I can get the Nokian's here in Ottawa, however the dealer I found them on didn't provide a price online. Snow is tough here, but good on ice is just as important as freezing rain can happen often. Will definitely look at Nokian prices in the near future. I don't put a ton of mileage on my car, so should be good to get a few seasons out of any winter tire, but of course the longer lasting the better.


Best place to get Nokian in Ottawa is from Commercial Tire on Star Top Road. You want to deal with Cedric. He knows his tires and can road force balance them. 

I don't recommend KAL tire, the other Nokian retailer. They do not have a GSP9700 road force balancer in their shop.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> This is an area of concern for me. With wear come traction, from my experience. Tread design will only get you so far.
> 
> When discussing ultimate traction with regard to cornering ability, emergency maneuvers, and stopping distance, would a Blizzak with a far softer tread compound (ultimately the cause of their low mileage rating) not perform better in those regards? I see the Nokian as more of a northern climate all-weather tire that outperforms any other "all season" tire on the market than a dedicated snow and ice tire.
> 
> I have two winters on a set of Blizzaks I used on my 95 Regal and have at least 2 more left in them. Of course, mileage will vary depending on how often snow is on the ground compared to dry pavement, and how cold the winter is overall. I swap mine on as soon as the temperatures hit freezing during the day and take them off as soon as it starts warming up.


The Finns take their winter tires really seriously. Every year they conduct and publish tests. They assess traction, cornering, stoping, rolling resistance, tread wear, etc. It's almost impossible to read the tests because they're written in Finnish. But with the help of google translate I've pieced some things together. 

A grade winter tires are Michelin Xice3 and Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7 or 8 (studded) and Hakkapeliitta R2 (studless). 

B grade winter tires include Blizzak. 

C grade winter tires include Goodyear. 

D grade winter tires include General. 

These are relative degrees of performance; and, any of the above will outperform an all-season tire. 

For the driving most of us do, any will be fine. But the higher the letter grade you go, the fewer compromises you'll make in extreme situations.


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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

I went with the Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice WRT's (on my stock alloy rims). Every website I visited, these scored great reviews. This is my first set of dedicated winter tires and obviously I have not had a chance to try them out in actual winter conditions yet, but if they perform at least half as good as their reviews, I will be happy. On a side note, don't wait until the snow starts flying to purchase your winter tires. I bought these in September and most places were already in very short supply. Just my 2 cents.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I drove on Goodyear Eagle M+S snow tires for 24 years and only needed help getting unstuck once - and that was on a hill in freezing rain.


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## Silver Streak (Jan 5, 2013)

Purchased a set of Michelin X-Ice 2 last March from Craig's List, along with a set of new take off LT 16" alloy wheels. Wheels had under 100 miles and the tires measured at full tread depth. Both from private sellers. Believe it or not, it snowed 3 times last March in Michigan, so I had a good test of the tires - and they were Great. Having them on mounted wheels allows me to install them whenever I want. The only assistance I need is to go to my local Discount Tire and have them initialize the TPMS system. I had them do my mounting and balancing plus they do all of the other tire rotations. Buying the lifetime rotation plan works quite well for me.


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## Vetterin (Mar 27, 2011)

Two years ago I bougt a set of steelies and the Generals for just under $500 mounted and balanced. I can switch over all 4 tires in less than 30 minutes which is great as here in Chicago I only had them on about 3 weeks all last winter as I must have switched them 3-4 times. The previous winter was brutal and even though I travel 76 miles daily the Generals never let me down. Are they the best.....no! Will they get you through the worst winter has to offer.....yes? 
Remember...it is pretty hard to go 60 mph in a snowstorm when everyone else is going 15 no matter what tires you are wearing.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Somehow got by with all season tires since studded snow tires were banned in the early 70 or mid 70's. And don't even ask me how, but somehow managed to drive most of these years without ABS.

Been driving on icy and snowy roads since I was 14 years old, if my math is correct, that is 60 years now without ever getting stuck. Have to admit, FWD is far superior to RWD. And as far as 4WD is concerned, seen more of those in the ditch during our last ice storm than anything else last winter.

Ha, recall the last time I landed my plane on an ice coated runway without a bit of problems, but the drive home with all these idiots on the road was tense to say the least. That prop with prop blast does not depend on road friction like a road vehicle does. 

When road salt replaced studded snow tires, this is when my problems really started to exist. Redefined the meaning of rust.


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## NYCruizer (Jul 10, 2013)

I've only ever done 2 snows in the winter - past few winters I ran Altimax Artic and Hankook I*Pike W409 - same tread design, no discernible road noise and they go over and through anything, never had a problem running them on dry pavement either. 

I haven't had my Cruze in winter yet, but my thoughts are to run a pair of either of the above - my only regret is my last pair went with my previous ride and I could have put them on the Cruze had I kept the tires.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

NYCruizer said:


> I haven't had my Cruze in winter yet, but my thoughts are to run a pair of either of the above - my only regret is my last pair went with my previous ride and I could have put them on the Cruze had I kept the tires.


What a great opportunity to try something different. 

In 1989 I was the first in my family to go from four all-seasons to four snows and have never regretted it.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> When discussing ultimate traction with regard to cornering ability, emergency maneuvers, and stopping distance, would a Blizzak with a far softer tread compound (ultimately the cause of their low mileage rating) not perform better in those regards? I see the Nokian as more of a northern climate all-weather tire that outperforms any other "all season" tire on the market than a dedicated snow and ice tire.


That's far too black and white. *Which* Nokian and *which* Blizzak are you talking about? The Nokian WRG2 or WRG3 is a true all-season tire in that it can be used in summer, and does have the mountain and snowflake deep-snow symbol on it. The Nokian Hakka R or R2 are true studless snow tires with a full-depth compound that nonetheless manages to wear well. The Hakka 7 or 8 is a studded snow tire. 

Blizzak can mean any one of several different tires. The one available for the Cruze in 16" size is the WS70. They also have the LM-60 performance snow tire in 17" and 18" sizes. The WS series has their half-tread grip compound, while the LM series has a less-grippy compound the full tread depth. 

I have the Nokian Hakka R snow tires right now. Our Fit has a set of Blizzak LM-25 snows. I've also run Blizzak MZ-02 snow tires which had the half-depth grip compound. The MZ-02's were horrible after the grippy compound wore away. The Hakka R's have been consistent in their level of grip as they have worn. So have the LM-25's. Based on my experiences with Blizzaks that go from awesome one year to horrible the next once the grippy compound is gone, I am not a fan of that style Blizzak. The LM-25's, though, have been predictable as they have worn down. 

No half-depth super-tread for me. Been there, done that, never again.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

I'm referring to the WS70 and comparing to Nokian's dedicated snow tire. I have two sets of them. From what I understand, they changed the design over time from the WS60. I vaguely recall people stating that after the first half-tread wore off, the WS60 was basically an all-season tire compound, and that the tire was improved with the WS70 to make the second half a winter tire compound. 

With the WS70, the tire has 10% life left on the grippy compound when 50% of the tread is gone according to Firestone. 

Sent from mobile.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

If the WS70 did make that change to the LM series winter compound underneath the multicell compound, good. That removes one of the major qualms I had about them if it's true. Bridgestone makes some all-season compounds that are horrid in the snow. Had a set of Bridgestone all-seasons on the Fit that were unsafe in the snow at anything faster than 35 mph. Same thing with the MZ-02's I had. They were worse than all-seasons once the multicell wore away. 

Basically, I've had direct experience with 3 sets of Bridgestone tires, including two winter tires, and only found 1 set of those tires to be worth a darn. I'm glad I was wrong about the LM-25's going onto our Fit for their 4th winter in a few months. That being said, I am not going to purchase or recommend another set of Bridgestone winter tires until they have shown that they do fine once the fancy compound is gone.


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## jcihos (Jun 9, 2013)

I just picked up some blizzaks with 10/32 left on 16" steel wheels for $250 off of craigslist and I am interested to see how they will handle compared to an all season tire as well.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

Winter tires going on in 2 weeks. Tires are an investment, so don't be cheap. Michelin Xi3 will be going on. Got quoted for $750 out the door price for tire, balance, everything. Those tires are rated 40,000 mile warranty. Considering I'm at 55,000 miles and 6/32 on my original Michelin Pilots, we know that quality is key.

Anyway, I live in Buffalo, New York. For most humid continental locations around 42-45N latitude, the reasonable window for snow is ~November 1-10 to ~April 1-10 according to weather spark. Give or take a week, this will be true for major cities of Buffalo, Rochester, Ottawa, Montreal, Detroit, Chicago, Greater Toronto, Milwaukee, Twin Cities, Boston.

So yea, Halloween or Veteran's Day and April Fools are good holidays to remember


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

Vetterin said:


> Two years ago I bougt a set of steelies and the Generals for just under $500 mounted and balanced. I can switch over all 4 tires in less than 30 minutes which is great as here in Chicago I only had them on about 3 weeks all last winter as I must have switched them 3-4 times. The previous winter was brutal and even though I travel 76 miles daily the Generals never let me down. Are they the best.....no! Will they get you through the worst winter has to offer.....yes? Remember...it is pretty hard to go 60 mph in a snowstorm when everyone else is going 15 no matter what tires you are wearing.


I did the same exact thing and have the same tires. cant wait to try them out this winter  got it all from tirerack for less then $600


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## Gnfanatic (Oct 2, 2013)

I have a question for you eco guys. Once winter is over and the salt on the roads are gone are you planning to take off the aero panels under the car and wash down everything?? Get all the salt out of there,wash the panels and then mount them back???


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

jcihos said:


> I just picked up some blizzaks with 10/32 left on 16" steel wheels for $250 off of craigslist and I am interested to see how they will handle compared to an all season tire as well.


Like night and day. You'll never go back to "all season" tires again.



Gnfanatic said:


> I have a question for you eco guys. Once winter is over and the salt on the roads are gone are you planning to take off the aero panels under the car and wash down everything?? Get all the salt out of there,wash the panels and then mount them back???


I didn't, but I did occasionally take the car through a car wash that also washes the undercarriage. 

Sent from mobile.


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## Vetterin (Mar 27, 2011)

ErikBEggs said:


> Anyway, I live in Buffalo, New York. For most humid continental locations around 42-45N latitude, the reasonable window for snow is ~November 1-10 to ~April 1-10 according to weather spark. Give or take a week, this will be true for major cities of Buffalo, Rochester, Ottawa, Montreal, Detroit, Chicago, Greater Toronto, Milwaukee, Twin Cities, Boston.
> 
> So yea, Halloween or Veteran's Day and April Fools are good holidays to remember


I live just out of Chicago and don't even garage my Corvette until the Thanksgiving weekend. Unless we have a freak blizzard my snow tires usually go on around Christmas and are off by mid March. 
The ironic part is that I've been driving in Chicago since the late 60's and until 2 years ago have NEVER even had snow tires.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Like night and day. You'll never go back to "all season" tires again.





Vetterin said:


> until 2 years ago have NEVER even had snow tires.


i _did just fine _on all seasons til ~5yrs ago when i got a set of winters for my miata....HOLY MOLY WHAT A DIFFERENCE...

since then i run winter tires on every vehicle I drive...i go studded, but I'm in different conditions than most....wife was pissed at the price of 10 tires for our two xj's, but first day on them, she was amazed

*100% recommend winter tires....*


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

Gnfanatic said:


> I have a question for you eco guys. Once winter is over and the salt on the roads are gone are you planning to take off the aero panels under the car and wash down everything?? Get all the salt out of there,wash the panels and then mount them back???


I have taken the aero panels off three times to spray rustproofing. I shouldn't have bothered this year since the areas under there were pristine. No salt, no dirt, no nothing. The straw-colored rustproofing I sprayed on 2 years ago was still a pale yellow. When exposed to dirt it turns gray rapidly. 

Based on that experience, I would not bother.


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## warplane95 (May 29, 2013)

Nokian hakka r2 for 750$ with tax  

First winter with nokian tire on my 2013 cruze lt (I have 18 years) 

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I put mine on December 1 and take them off on March 31.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

warplane95 said:


> Nokian hakka r2 for 750$ with tax
> 
> First winter with nokian tire on my 2013 cruze lt (I have 18 years)
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


From my two winters on my Nokian Hakka R's, you will be quite happy with the R2's. The R2 is supposed to be the R on steroids. Considering I've really liked my set of Hakka R's, I'd expect the R2 to be another great snow tire.


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## whitelt (Oct 10, 2013)

only tire i use now is Nitto's. i have them on all my cars. these tires are amazing.


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## giantsfan10 (May 25, 2013)

ill be putting mine on either this weekend or next. its getting close to that 0-10 degree mark. got a good deal on some kuhmo izen kw22 not too much reviews compared to say a x ice 3. hopefully they are a decent tire. but any winter tire will be better then a all season


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## warplane95 (May 29, 2013)

sciphi said:


> From my two winters on my Nokian Hakka R's, you will be quite happy with the R2's. The R2 is supposed to be the R on steroids. Considering I've really liked my set of Hakka R's, I'd expect the R2 to be another great snow tire.


Once or twice a winter we have always a snowfall of 50-70cm, so stud tire is usefull for me

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

Turns out all the tire places are selling the Michelin Xi3 for $150-$200 more out the door than Bridgestone Blizzaks.. Looks like the Blizzaks are going on.

I'm trying to hold out until the November 8 (weather spark recommended snow season start) date for my area. However, we have snow in the forecast for Wednesday. Temp will be 48/35, and 45/35 for Friday. Good thing I have all-seasons. I'm going to still wait a few weeks since you never know here.. could be 65 or 70 the following week


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Where do you live and do you normally get dry powdery snow or wet icy snow? Depends on the snow as to which tire will better suit you


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

And to answer your questions, IMO for dry snow Nokian's are worth the money, if it is wet or icy the Blizzak WS70 is my favorite. Just keep in mind they aren't cheap and a snow tire is really only "good" for half it's tread life unlike other tires.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NBrehm said:


> And to answer your questions, IMO for dry snow Nokian's are worth the money, if it is wet or icy the Blizzak WS70 is my favorite. Just keep in mind they aren't cheap and a snow tire is really only "good" for half it's tread life unlike other tires.


Well, on that notion, what's better; a winter tire with half the tread left or an all season tire with all of the tread left?

Sent from mobile.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

Buffalo, NY.

From November 8 to April 9, there is at least a 25% chance of snow falling at any given day, according to the weather spark almanac.

We get mostly wet snow until mid January because it is lake affect snow. Lake Erie and Lake Ontario are unseasonably warm right now (62 and 60F), which means our lake effect snow machine will probably tick a little later into the season this year. After Lake Erie freezes over, the Buffalo area gets dry powdery snow from mid January to early April. It stops sticking usually around April fools, sometimes earlier if we get a freak March.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Well, on that notion, what's better; a winter tire with half the tread left or an all season tire with all of the tread left?
> 
> Sent from mobile.


Phenomenal question XR!!!

I want to know too.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

NickD said:


> Somehow got by with all season tires since studded snow tires were banned in the early 70 or mid 70's. And don't even ask me how, but somehow managed to drive most of these years without ABS.
> 
> Been driving on icy and snowy roads since I was 14 years old, if my math is correct, that is 60 years now without ever getting stuck. Have to admit, FWD is far superior to RWD. And as far as 4WD is concerned, seen more of those in the ditch during our last ice storm than anything else last winter.


I used to be just like you. I grew up in northern Montana with long winters and lots of snow. I didn't know anything different other than all-seasons with no problems. However, when I got married my wife convinced me to put on snow tires for her sake, and now I'll swear by them. Sure, you can get by just fine with all-seasons, but a real snow tire is SO much better and very confidence inspiring.

I put on Michelin X-Ice Xi3's last winter, and I'll swear by them. Not only are they great on snow and ice, they handle very well and are efficient on dry roads as well. I did not notice any significant mileage drop, and I did not notice the mushy handling with them that is common among snow tires.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

PanJet said:


> I put on Michelin X-Ice Xi3's last winter, and I'll swear by them. Not only are they great on snow and ice, they handle very well and are efficient on dry roads as well. I did not notice any significant mileage drop, and I did not notice the mushy handling with them that is common among snow tires.


This is really encouraging. I also see they come with a 40,000 mile factory warranty. The bad part is, I can't find a local tire shop to install a set of 4 for under $750. They are just too darn expensive!


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Well, on that notion, what's better; a winter tire with half the tread left or an all season tire with all of the tread left?
> 
> Sent from mobile.


the all season with full tread IMO would be better. In order for a snow tire to work properly it has to pack snow into the tread, if the tread isn't deep enough to hold snow you just have a soft tire that isn't suceptable to cold weather.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NBrehm said:


> the all season with full tread IMO would be better. In order for a snow tire to work properly it has to pack snow into the tread, if the tread isn't deep enough to hold snow you just have a soft tire that isn't suceptable to cold weather.


Yes, but what about other conditions such as slush and ice?

Sent from mobile.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Yes, but what about other conditions such as slush and ice?
> 
> Sent from mobile.


I'd sya the same, deeper the tread the more water/slush you could siphon off. As for ice you are realistically screwed without studded tires. Snow tires are marginally better than all seasons, and tread depth doesn't impact ice traction. However most snows that have a compound that sticks to ice at all still only have the first half of the tread life treated with the compound so I'd still give the nod to the all season at full tread vs a worn out snow tire. Tires that aren't treated for ice still rely on the snow in the tread for their actual traction (yes you read that right, snow creates more friction than a rubber tire) so the deeper tread will also win out in this sense


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## H3LLON3ARTH (Dec 16, 2011)

It also depends on tread design. You would want a tire that pushes everything outward instead of directly behind.

Sent From My Galaxy Note 3.
Which is bigger than my hand.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

NBrehm said:


> And to answer your questions, IMO for dry snow Nokian's are worth the money, if it is wet or icy the Blizzak WS70 is my favorite. Just keep in mind they aren't cheap and a snow tire is really only "good" for half it's tread life unlike other tires.


What about tires like the Nokian Hakka R2 that have grit scattered throughout the full depth of the usable snow tread? Several companies are doing that with their latest studless snow tires to improve ice traction.

I will agree that snow tires are only really effective until about 5/32" of tread. At that depth, their ability to pack snow into the tread is nowhere near as good as it would be at full depth. It's still worlds better than an all-season without the sipes for snow to pack into, however. Add in all the lateral stability that a snow tire still retains over an all-season thanks to the sheer number of sipes, and my nod goes to half-worn snow tires over full-tread all-seasons.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

NBrehm said:


> I'd sya the same, deeper the tread the more water/slush you could siphon off. As for ice you are realistically screwed without studded tires. Snow tires are marginally better than all seasons, and tread depth doesn't impact ice traction. However most snows that have a compound that sticks to ice at all still only have the first half of the tread life treated with the compound so I'd still give the nod to the all season at full tread vs a worn out snow tire. Tires that aren't treated for ice still rely on the snow in the tread for their actual traction (yes you read that right, snow creates more friction than a rubber tire) so the deeper tread will also win out in this sense


and sipes...most of the tires copy the hakkapeliitta sipes

+1 for the part aboot buying the tires for your application, theres not a blanket best tire 

and winter tires dont make you invicible...drive to the conditions and slow down

i rolled my miata in march (with 2yr old hakka r's ((non studded)) taking a sweeping corner at perhaps too high a speed and perhaps too much weight in the trunk on a perhaps too icy highway and couldnt control it at all, rolled it ended up on drivers door, had to bust out the windshield to get out

the 5 cars in front of me made it (at apparently the same speed,was same pace as them) though the guy that drove me to next town said there was a pile of cars same as me 1/2 mile up the road

ive got 2 million plus safe miles and i ended up this way, stay safe


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

sciphi said:


> What about tires like the Nokian Hakka R2 that have grit scattered throughout the full depth of the usable snow tread? Several companies are doing that with their latest studless snow tires to improve ice traction.


Never had them or sold them so I couldn't tell you. In theory it sounds like it would help but there would probably have to be a ton of it in there, tire would feel like sandpaper. I dunno, sounds kinda gimmicky to me but now I feel the need to do some research.


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## zeoalex (Aug 24, 2013)

boraz said:


> and winter tires dont make you invicible...drive to the conditions and slow down
> 
> i rolled my miata in march (with 2yr old hakka r's ((non studded)) taking a sweeping corner at perhaps too high a speed and perhaps too much weight in the trunk on a perhaps too icy highway and couldnt control it at all, rolled it ended up on drivers door, had to bust out the windshield to get out
> 
> ...


I don't know if I can really put into words how true this is. yes, we have lower powered FWD cars, and with snow tyres, we will be in a significantly better position than most people, but with that said you HAVE to respect the conditions. just because you have the right tyres, doesn't mean you can drive like an ******* because you WILL crash. this is how I survived a NH summer with summer rubber still on my car (a cardinal sin, but I was a poor college kid, luckily I had AWD which helped, but I knew when I could and couldn't drive...luckily now that I am gainfully employed, I will be putting snows on my cruze)


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Off topic I love how everyone thinks in modern cars FWD is better in the snow. I always shake my head at that. It is by far my least favorite drivetrain config for winter. Just felt like saying that


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NBrehm said:


> Off topic I love how everyone thinks in modern cars FWD is better in the snow. I always shake my head at that. It is by far my least favorite drivetrain config for winter. Just felt like saying that


Mind elaborating?

Sent from mobile.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

With modern tires and much better weight distribution FWD is irrelevant If a car has a 50/50 weight split it doesn't matter which wheels are driving it int he snow. I'd give FWD an edge only for getting a car moving since it pulls instead of pushes. After that it is no better. And the big downside, IMO, you lose traction at all and now you can no longer steer since the drive wheels are the steering wheels. I'll take the predictability and overall control of a RWD car with a good set of snows anyday of the week over a FWD car. And obviously AWD and 4WD are a whole different league.


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## NYCruizer (Jul 10, 2013)

NBrehm said:


> With modern tires and much better weight distribution FWD is irrelevant If a car has a 50/50 weight split it doesn't matter which wheels are driving it int he snow. I'd give FWD an edge only for getting a car moving since it pulls instead of pushes. After that it is no better. And the big downside, IMO, you lose traction at all and now you can no longer steer since the drive wheels are the steering wheels. I'll take the predictability and overall control of a RWD car with a good set of snows anyday of the week over a FWD car. And obviously AWD and 4WD are a whole different league.


If the front end slides in a rear wheel car in the snow or on ice, it's pretty much game over and welcome to a ditch - with front wheel you can apply power and steer and have a much better chance of staying out of the ditch. If you're talking about simply getting the car moving .... maybe, but you'd have to do better than 50/50, more like 40 front, 60 rear to actually make it work, but then again you're then having to make the drive wheels dig through the snow that the front wheels just packed down. It may be more "fun" to screw around with rear wheel drive, but front wheel will get the job done and will be more stable in the long run. Ever apply a little power to a rear wheel drive and get the car to fishtail? Ever tried it in front wheel drive? You can get a rear wheeler to fishtail, but not with power.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NBrehm said:


> With modern tires and much better weight distribution FWD is irrelevant If a car has a 50/50 weight split it doesn't matter which wheels are driving it int he snow. I'd give FWD an edge only for getting a car moving since it pulls instead of pushes. After that it is no better. And the big downside, IMO, you lose traction at all and now you can no longer steer since the drive wheels are the steering wheels. I'll take the predictability and overall control of a RWD car with a good set of snows anyday of the week over a FWD car. And obviously AWD and 4WD are a whole different league.


Aren't most modern FWD cars, or at least compacts, closer to a 65:35 weight distribution?

I did notice that with snow tires that could really dig through snow and fling it out from underneath the car, FWD had many advantages. I could literally plow around a corner at fairly good speeds without concern for losing control. 

Then again, the weight distribution on my last car was 70:30.

Sent from mobile.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

NYCruizer said:


> If the front end slides in a rear wheel car in the snow or on ice, it's pretty much game over and welcome to a ditch


Huh? Have you ever driven a RWD in the winter? That is kind of true I guess, although trying to haphazardly floor it out of a ditch with FWD is a double edged sword. If it works great, if not now you hit the object even harder or maybe hit something else. Also a fantastic way to lose the back end of the car. Your best bet at keeping control of a vehicle in any sliding situation is to take your foot off the brake and the gas and steer out of it till you regain control. Every situation is obviously different but statistically that is your best bet. Maybe I'm wrong, but I delivered my old T/A to the shop years ago in an snow storm, with drag radials on the back and had no issues with just traction control. Got caught in a freak ice storm with it a year later coming back from racing in NC same thing, no issues. Yeah the rear end moves around but it also does on the Cruze or any vehicle. It's predictable and controllable. I think more people get in trouble being stupid in RWD cars than anything else, which can be said for all types of vehicle. Maybe I am just giving John Q driver too much credit, a lot of these people end up in ditches on sunny days in the summer.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Aren't most modern FWD cars, or at least compacts, closer to a 65:35 weight distribution?
> 
> I did notice that with snow tires that could really dig through snow and fling it out from underneath the car, FWD had many advantages. I could literally plow around a corner at fairly good speeds without concern for losing control.
> 
> ...


Even worse, good for traction terrible for handling. I'd rather have a balanced chassis over just about anything else. Keep you out of trouble in the first place.


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## NYCruizer (Jul 10, 2013)

NBrehm said:


> Huh? Have you ever driven a RWD in the winter?


LMAO - Yes, I have experience driving rear wheel in the snow; 123,000 miles a year for many years, motorcycles, various cars, pickups and the like (licensed 34+ years, 30 years professionally). Seeing as you assumed I wasn't experienced, I won't waste any time arguing with you - you rock!


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

NYCruizer said:


> LMAO - Yes, I have experience driving rear wheel in the snow; 123,000 miles a year for many years, motorcycles, various cars, pickups and the like (licensed 34+ years, 30 years professionally). Seeing as you assumed I wasn't experienced, I won't waste any time arguing with you - you rock!


it's an honest question, i don't know you from a hole in the wall and since our opinions differ greatly I was curious. . I made no assumption which is why I asked, but if you feel the need to be an a$$ about being asked a question then I won't bother you with any more. I also have a ton of time behind various types of vehicles for the last 20 years and have held 5 different racing licenses, spent a crap ton of time doing measured/instrumented R&D and testing on various vehicles in different conditions with different modifications in that time if you really feel like comparing resumes, which really isn't relevant since it was a simple yes/no question. You Rock!

Now if you want to keep comparing penis sizes we can or we can just discuss it like adults and give our opinions and evidence that we have gained from our experiences. Frankly what you said prior to that doesn't make any sense to me because I have had the exact opposite experiences between the 2 types of cars. I have never had an issue steering out of a slide with a RWD car and I have had multiple problems in the FWD cars I have owned and tested in bad conditions. Maybe our driving styles are just different but IMO (opinion mind you) accelerating out of a slide is going to be the wrong answer 95% of the time if you want to keep control of the car no matter which wheels are driving it.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

The other issue with accelerating even briefly from a slide with FWD is it also transfers weight toward the rear of the car. Not a huge issue if traction stays constant but if you suddenly gain grip it will pull weight from the drive wheels which may cause another slide. You are essentially asking for 50% of your tires to do 90% of the work (accelerate, brake and steer) with FWD Vs a better distribution of overall grip when your drive/steering wheels are on opposite axles. FWD will also understeer almost every time, which is also not good for trying to change your direction even on dry pavement. At least with oversteer you can rotate the chassis if you are going to try and power out of something vs just plowing through it and hoping to regain traction. I will continue to stand firm that with good tires and modern traction control RWD is a better overall chssis set-up in bad weather (assuming competent drivers are involved). 

***DISCLAIMER*** so I don't hurt anyone's feelings this time this is my opinion based on facts from my personal experiences, research I have conducted over the years and testing backed by science. It is no way the end all be all of every driving style for every car and if I have offended anyone in any way shape or form I would like to apologize at this time. If anyone would like to add/debate my findings with information you have please feel free.

We have strayed off topic though (my fault) I suggest if we want to continue this discussion we take it to another thread so the OP can get the info they are looking for


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

I was always under the impression that it went like this for winter driving:

AWD > FWD > RWD on the same set of tires.

FWD (Winter Tires) > RWD (Winter Tires ) > AWD (non-winter tires).

A Cruze LTZ, has a weight distribution of *60.5% / 39.5%.

*Most compact cars now are closer 60-40 due to very small engines with very big bodies.


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## Blue Angel (Feb 18, 2011)

The debate of FWD vs. RWD in winter has to be broken down...

Acceleration: The more traction there is available the bigger advantage the RWD car has, and conversely the less traction available the bigger advantag the FWD car has. This is based and dependant soley on the force on the contact patch which is based on vehicle weight distribution and acceleration dynamics. On a very slippery surface there is litle dynamic impact (acceleration is very slow) so the static weight distribution advantage of the FWD car will (in most cases) be enough to keep a higher percentage of the vehicle's weight on the drive tires. Advantage FWD.

Braking: Not much difference, though you can argue that RWD vehicles may brake better due to a greater percentage of the weight on the rear tires so they can contribute more. Slight advantage RWD.

Handling: This is a bit more subjective and situation dependant, but the general idea is not much different than on any surface, dry or wet, snowy or icy... having the drive wheels separate from the steering wheels is an advantage, and so is better weight distribution. FWD cars tend to be safer for the general driving public as understeer is usually easier for inexperienced drivers to control. It also results in the car traveling forward when traction is lost, so if there is a collision it happens at the front of the car which is FAR safer than a side or angular impact. For a driver who is comfortable, practiced and skilled at the behaviour of a RWD car in traction limited conditions, RWD may be seen as preferrable.

Please keep in mind that the above information is full of assumptions. In the real world, not all FWD and RWD vehicles are equal and one would be a little crazy to think a RWD short cab full box work truck has the same capabilities as a RWD BMW sedan. Suspension design, weight distribution, tire choice, tire size, driver skill and environment are ALL variables that will affect every situation. I'm sure there are FWD vehicles out there that can outperform some RWD vehicles given the right circumstances.

Having said all that, a long time ago I had a great time one night embarassing my buddy. His RWD 4cyl Mustang with ordinary all seasons was no match for my first Saturn with all seasons, but his tires were big 225's on 16" GT wheels while my Saturn had 185's on skinny 15" wheels. We were lapping an island in a parking lot and I could simply accelerate faster than he could, and I was also using the handbrake to back the car into the corners (something you won't do on the street!). He later kicked my butt with his big heavy extended cab F150 which had snow tires on it, but that was on a different day in different snow, blah blah blah...

Now, back on topic.

I'm planning to get Michelin Xi3 tires, 215/55-17 for my Eco (17's so I have the option of using my stock wheels in the winter in the future). I'm lucky that my boss and his family run a tire/wheel operation near here and I'm going to get a decent deal. The reasoning for my choice; I had a GREAT experience with the Xi2 on a previous car ('01 Saturn Coupe, tires wore very slowly and were very quiet), and the Xi3 seems to test very competitively with the other top snow tires while still being reported as the quietest one. We do get lots of snow here in Ottawa, but 95% of the time we are driving on plowed roads that have packed snow or ice when the weather is bad, and dry roads the rest of the time. Some of the more aggressive tires are apparently a little better in deeper snow, but I'm willing to trade-off a small amount of deep snow performance for better road manners and a quieter ride. The Xi2's on my Saturn were so quiet I couldn't even hear them unless driving on wet roads, and they were by far the quietest tire I had on that car in 9 years of ownership.

There was a local guy selling a used set of 16" Blizzaks on steelies but he was asking $800, too much even though they only had ~3000km on them. That package could be bought new here for not too much more, and new in the US for about the same price and it's only an hour's drive south from here.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

Let us know how the Michelins work, I'm sure they are good but they carry a pretty steep price tag to go with them. I may squeeze 1 more year out of my Firestone's but if not I am going to try Nitto's new NT90W snow tire (sure you are all shocked at that  )


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## SS_Killer (Mar 23, 2013)

Blue Angel said:


> The debate of FWD vs. RWD in winter has to be broken down...
> 
> Acceleration: The more traction there is available the bigger advantage the RWD car has, and conversely the less traction available the bigger advantag the FWD car has. This is based and dependant soley on the force on the contact patch which is based on vehicle weight distribution and acceleration dynamics. On a very slippery surface there is litle dynamic impact (acceleration is very slow) so the static weight distribution advantage of the FWD car will (in most cases) be enough to keep a higher percentage of the vehicle's weight on the drive tires. Advantage FWD.
> 
> ...


Well put. All of it. I just bought the General Tire 15-inch steel wheel option from the Tire Rack and look forward to trying them out when it snows. Before the Camaro and before the Cruze ECO, I had an AVEO. The Dunlop Graspics on the AVEO were a ball. I seriously enjoyed out-accelerating 4x4s from every green light. The only major problem was all the fools driving on snow/ice with "all"-season tires. One morning I cheered when one fool slid off Rt 2 between Westville and La Porte directly in front of me so that I could move up one place in a parade of excruciatingly slow and ill-prepared winter "drivers". The snow bank he slid into looked plenty soft.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

I've driven RWD (Fiero) with a 30/70 weight distribution. If you get into trouble in this type of car your best bet is to actually spin the car (been there done it) and drive out. I also had to back my Fiero up an icy hill. FWD is definitely more stable that RWD but as NBrehm pointed out a 50/50 weight distribution is the best for snow and ice. FWD is slightly better in this case but not that much better. For flat out best starting from a stop you want an AWD car. Just remember that all cars are all wheel slide (stop).


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## Nobody (Feb 12, 2012)

jstoner22 said:


> I'd 100% recommend Michelin X-ice 3's.
> I purchased them for my Cruze right when they were released last winter, and am thoroughly happy with them.
> 
> Only time will tell, but they apparently will maintain their abilities right down to 4/32". Most winter tires performance drop off well before this, leading to less usable seasons on your car.
> ...


These! I have these as well. Definitely a good buy


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

From what I read on the latest Finnish test, this year's Xice3 has a stiffer sidewall than last years. 

The result is slightly better handling with slightly harsher ride.


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## zeoalex (Aug 24, 2013)

realistically what does everybody like for tyre size? I was planning on putting the winters on the stock wheel but after some discussion I'm iffy about putting them on a wheel that big (plus it's a decent amount more). Looks like I can be somewhere around $800 with 16" steelies and a set of blizzaks (with TMPS...+200...bleh). Do people like 16's? are 15's better?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Snow tires are a lot softer and more "mushy" than "all-season" tires, so I would go with the 16" rim. 

215/60/16 is the tire size you're looking for. Gmpartsdirect has the steelies for $200 shipped for all 4.

Sent from mobile.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

Tomko said:


> From what I read on the latest Finnish test, this year's Xice3 has a stiffer sidewall than last years. The result is slightly better handling with slightly harsher ride.


So... our LTZ / 2LT models will feel *almost* normal.From my rental experience, the 1LT trim had a cushier suspension and tires by a longshot. But the handling on the LTZ is amazing. The Xi3 comes with a 40,000 mile treadlife warranty also (advised to change at 5/32, however). Most (all?) snow tires don't.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

zeoalex said:


> realistically what does everybody like for tyre size? I was planning on putting the winters on the stock wheel but after some discussion I'm iffy about putting them on a wheel that big (plus it's a decent amount more). Looks like I can be somewhere around $800 with 16" steelies and a set of blizzaks (with TMPS...+200...bleh). Do people like 16's? are 15's better?


The TMPS is a pure waste of money. We didn't have that in the old days so we don't need it for a few months out of the year. Keep a manual pressure gauge and call it a day.

$200 + shipping for the 16" steelies off the GM parts sites. Blizzaks run $107 each on tire rack + shipping. You can find a place to mount and balance for less than $100 pretty much anywhere. Second set of wheels protects your rims, tires, and wallet from bi-annual mounting and unmounting. Plus, your rims will be shinier and less corroded when it is resale time.

I was a cocky skeptic like most - relying on the "I don't need them to drive in the snow." It is largely true, but better safe than sorry. From a pure financial standpoint, downgrading your wheel size and running winter tires is a cheaper replacement than constantly changing all-season tires every other year at half tread. It is even worse when you have 18" rims ($200 / tire, irrelevant of the brand). If you plan on holding onto the car for a while and live in the snowbelt, it is worth it.


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## zeoalex (Aug 24, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Snow tires are a lot softer and more "mushy" than "all-season" tires, so I would go with the 16" rim.
> 
> 215/60/16 is the tire size you're looking for. Gmpartsdirect has the steelies for $200 shipped for all 4.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


right, OK..16 it is (I thought briefly about 15 but there aren't many tyres available for that size)

either I'm super dense/didn't get nearly enough sleep last night, or I can't seem to find them? 



ErikBEggs said:


> The TMPS is a pure waste of money. We didn't have that in the old days so we don't need it for a few months out of the year. Keep a manual pressure gauge and call it a day.
> 
> $200 + shipping for the 16" steelies off the GM parts sites. Blizzaks run $107 each on tire rack + shipping. You can find a place to mount and balance for less than $100 pretty much anywhere. Second set of wheels protects your rims, tires, and wallet from bi-annual mounting and unmounting. Plus, your rims will be shinier and less corroded when it is resale time.
> 
> I was a cocky skeptic like most - relying on the "I don't need them to drive in the snow." It is largely true, but better safe than sorry. From a pure financial standpoint, downgrading your wheel size and running winter tires is a cheaper replacement than constantly changing all-season tires every other year at half tread. It is even worse when you have 18" rims ($200 / tire, irrelevant of the brand). If you plan on holding onto the car for a while and live in the snowbelt, it is worth it.


re:TMPS yeah...that's kind of what I was thinking. I wasn't entirely sure though. 

I'm definitely doing two sets of wheels. I was initially planning on making the stock setup my winter setup, but I like the wheels, and the tyres are significantly more expensive for the 17's, and IIRC the price difference makes up for the chance in wheel size, and 16's in theory will handle a bit better. 
I'm going to have dedicated winter/summer rubber and wheels to make life easy when I want to swap. I'm moving far far away from all seasons as soon as possible


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

zeoalex said:


> I'm going to have dedicated winter/summer rubber and wheels to make life easy when I want to swap. I'm moving far far away from all seasons as soon as possible


All-seasons aren't all bad. Some of the newer all-season performance tires handle extremely well, on par with lower and medium end summer tires. Summer tires are ideal but they wear out 2-3 times as fast as all seasons. Plus, if your winter tires can't make it through an entire season, you can rough it out a little longer or earlier with all-seasons.


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## zeoalex (Aug 24, 2013)

ErikBEggs said:


> All-seasons aren't all bad. Some of the newer all-season performance tires handle extremely well, on par with lower and medium end summer tires. Summer tires are ideal but they wear out 2-3 times as fast as all seasons. Plus, if your winter tires can't make it through an entire season, you can rough it out a little longer or earlier with all-seasons.


that's a fair point. I had summers on my last car that were great (hankook ventus V12 k110 IIRC) and I like having the added grip/performance over the all seasons, since it it something I can afford/notice/want to have. I understand the benefits to all seasons and why, probably close to 95% of the population (just a guess) use em. 
That's my only issue with dedicated snow/summer rubber, is the increased wear time, but as a dear friend/car guy said...you gotta pay to play


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## Sunline Fan (Jul 29, 2012)

zeoalex said:


> I was initially planning on making the stock setup my winter setup, but I like the wheels, and the tyres are significantly more expensive for the 17's, and IIRC the price difference makes up for the chance in wheel size, and 16's in theory will handle a bit better.


Geez, a couple beers with Andrei and he's got you ready to make love to your 2LT 5 spokes!


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## zeoalex (Aug 24, 2013)

Sunline Fan said:


> Geez, a couple beers with Andrei and he's got you ready to make love to your 2LT 5 spokes!


...not quite that far hah. I think he made a good point...I'm still going to replace them, but I may try to sell em...plus dropping to 16's is cheaper in the long run (200 for wheels, 400 for tyres is still less than one set of tyres for the 17's...and I don't have to worry about corrosion)


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## AVCruze12 (Feb 27, 2013)

I bought MSW type 22 16" rims (38mm offset ,Stock eco rims are 42) and general altimax artic's 215-60/16 for under $700 mounted balanced and all, after reading reviews and more reviews and at the price point it was worth it...The michelin x ice tires would have been ~200 more and for 3-4 months out of the year I'll deal with a little more road noise.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

You could theoretically get a citation for TPMS not being equipped (stupid I know) but it is a federal law to have it on any car after 2008 and considered a safety feature. I highly highly HIGHLY doubt anyone would notice, especially since ours looks like valve stems. But if your inspection comes up in that time frame you will fail without TPMS.


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## wetpainted (Jun 10, 2012)

zeoalex said:


> realistically what does everybody like for tyre size? I was planning on putting the winters on the stock wheel but after some discussion I'm iffy about putting them on a wheel that big (plus it's a decent amount more). Looks like I can be somewhere around $800 with 16" steelies and a set of blizzaks (with TMPS...+200...bleh). Do people like 16's? are 15's better?


I have 15" steelies with 205/70-15 tires for winter. They're nice when the roads are rough with packed snow and ice for the extra cusion, but the car handles horrible with tall, soft winter tires. You can feel the sidewalls flexing when cornering. I don't mind the 15s since they work great when you really need them in the winter. I would go with whatever is cheaper 15" or 16" wheels.

I don't have TMPS in my winter wheels, I don't like it to begin with and I don't mind the light being on.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

NBrehm said:


> You could theoretically get a citation for TPMS not being equipped (stupid I know) but it is a federal law to have it on any car after 2008 and considered a safety feature. I highly highly HIGHLY doubt anyone would notice, especially since ours looks like valve stems. But if your inspection comes up in that time frame you will fail without TPMS.


Are you kidding me? Show them the manual tire pressure gauge. I'd like to *****slap whoever made that POS.

There are good laws (no texting and driving) and some really bad frickin laws. This one would raise my blood pressure quite a bit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read a **** manual tire gauge.


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## NBrehm (Jun 27, 2011)

amazing right? It is all deemed in the name of safety and curbing pollution for underinflated tires wasting MPG. Another good idea implemented poorly.


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## Bruno (Aug 20, 2012)

I will personally run nothing but Nokian Hakka's on my vehicles.. They are a bit pricey (at least here in Canada); but in my opinion VERY worth it.. Getting longer life than the Blizzaks so far as they aren't too friendly with milder temperatures.


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