# SORRY GM! You LOST another potential buyer!



## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

You just got crossed off my short list. I've been shopping for awhile and have driven several Cruze's. I love they everything about them, but I'm not willing to risk my (or other innocent's) lives with this very, very dangerous brake parts issue! 
*
Totally UNACCEPTABLE for a 2011-2012 made vehicle !!!
*
http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/25-service-issues/4388-brakes-quit-working.html

*Cost savings on LOW quality parts has finally bit you in the ASS !!! *Low quality clutches, master cylinders, AC compressor bearings etc....
Oh, BTW, I live in Ohio and really, really wanted to buy an Ohio made car to support all the Union workers here.

I hope you do a total recall on this issue and get the problem fixed BEFORE someone gets KILLED!

C-YA !

PS - I know this was rather harsh, but you NEED a wake up call !


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

Well GM, I have not ruled you out completely (YET!). Just the Cruze so far.

I'll now move on to the Sonic forums and hope they don't have the same issues as the Cruze here.


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## rustinn (Jun 7, 2012)

As unfortunate as your experience has clearly been, you have to understand no product is perfect. There always comes a level of risk when designing an affordable car. There will always be those lemons. History shows it ain't going away, but it's getting better.


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## jakkaroo (Feb 12, 2011)

Troll alert haha really theres maybe a handful of people who have had problems my cruze has 25 k miles hassnt seen the dealer once not even recalls and it drives betterr than any other forgien crap out there sorry buddy but your logical is way off alright see you later have fun in whatever pos you buy

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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

rustinn said:


> As unfortunate as your experience has clearly been, you have to understand no product is perfect. There always comes a level of risk when designing an affordable car. There will always be those lemons. History shows it ain't going away, but it's getting better.


I'm not expecting perfect. That's not realistic. But when it comes to a very serious safety issue due to defective parts. That's where I draw the line.

BTW, there have been more than a handful of Cruze owners that have experience total BRAKE FAILURE. In my book, that is totally unacceptable.

Take the time to read that thread on the Brake Failures. Very enlightening.


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## jakkaroo (Feb 12, 2011)

Labrat0116 said:


> I'm not expecting perfect. That's not realistic. But when it comes to a very serious safety issue due to defective parts. That's where I draw the line.
> 
> BTW, there have been more than a handful of Cruze owners that have experience total BRAKE FAILURE. In my book, that is totally unacceptable.
> 
> Take the time to read that thread on the Brake Failures. Very enlightening.


Take the time and figure maybe one in 3000 cruzes have had brake problens my cruze still has more than 75% pad left and i used to drive this car super hard into turns really man im saying ur acting pretty childish making threads saying its unaccpetable when there are more people that will tell u they have not had one problen over the what 50 who say they have had a problem go drive one and u find out every car is diffrent

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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

jakkaroo said:


> Troll alert haha really theres maybe a handful of people who have had problems my cruze has 25 k miles hassnt seen the dealer once not even recalls and it drives betterr than any other forgien crap out there sorry buddy but your logical is way off alright see you later have fun in whatever pos you buy


Troll alert ? My logic is WAY off ? Put the crack pipe down kid. It's effecting your ability to reason and type.

After you sober up, Read this thread below. SERIOUSLY.

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/25-service-issues/4388-brakes-quit-working.html


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## jakkaroo (Feb 12, 2011)

Labrat0116 said:


> Troll alert ? My logic is WAY off ? Put the crack pipe down kid. It's effecting your ability to reason and type.
> 
> After you sober up, Read this thread below. SERIOUSLY.
> 
> http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/25-service-issues/4388-brakes-quit-working.html


Dude really ur the one high making ubstay comments about a car that you dont even own, if i were u i would have never posted in the first ace cause really ur the crack head who is gonna get flamed up the ass for posting stupid **** dude what's 

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## jakkaroo (Feb 12, 2011)

And also u dont find it a tad ironic that almost everyone who commented on that thread had nomore than 3 posts and are lady names and all state the same exact problem and the same mileage sounds prettu fishy to me but hey your lose on not buying a great car no point in arguing with and idiot 

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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

OP is also forgetting the single biggest truism about forums like Cruzetalk. They will ALWAYS show more problems than there really are simply because people with problems will show up here to complain to try to get help or just to complain. There are nearly 500,000 Lordstown built Cruzen sold (leased) and I have yet to see one sitting on the side of the road. Even scanning the NHTSA complaint database is misleading because the same NHTSA complaint number appears multiple times.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> I'm not expecting perfect. That's not realistic. But when it comes to a very serious safety issue due to defective parts. That's where I draw the line.
> 
> BTW, there have been more than a handful of Cruze owners that have experience total BRAKE FAILURE. In my book, that is totally unacceptable.
> 
> Take the time to read that thread on the Brake Failures. Very enlightening.


I did just reread it. It appears that the problems are pretty much limited to the 2011 Cruzen. The 2012's that report are most likely improperly adjusted rear brakes because they appear to be all related to braking while backing up. Improperly adjusted rear brakes will adversly impact braking while in reverse. This tells me that GM has corrected the problem at Lordstown (or in the supply chain to Lordstown). For the owners who didn't specify model year I took a look at the "join date" for the poster.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> Troll alert ? My logic is WAY off ? Put the crack pipe down kid. It's effecting your ability to reason and type.
> 
> After you sober up, Read this thread below. SERIOUSLY.
> 
> http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/25-service-issues/4388-brakes-quit-working.html





jakkaroo said:


> Dude really ur the one high making ubstay comments about a car that you dont even own, if i were u i would have never posted in the first ace cause really ur the crack head who is gonna get flamed up the ass for posting stupid **** dude what's
> 
> Sent from my MB886 using AutoGuide.Com Free App





jakkaroo said:


> And also u dont find it a tad ironic that almost everyone who commented on that thread had nomore than 3 posts and are lady names and all state the same exact problem and the same mileage sounds prettu fishy to me but hey your lose on not buying a great car no point in arguing with and idiot
> 
> Sent from my MB886 using AutoGuide.Com Free App





obermd said:


> OP is also forgetting the single biggest truism about forums like Cruzetalk. They will ALWAYS show more problems than there really are simply because people with problems will show up here to complain to try to get help or just to complain. There are nearly 500,000 Lordstown built Cruzen sold (leased) and I have yet to see one sitting on the side of the road. Even scanning the NHTSA complaint database is misleading because the same NHTSA complaint number appears multiple times.


Both of you, be respectful or don't post at all. Quit the name-calling. 

Labrat, tell me who makes those brake parts. Not GM. Who makes those clutches? LuK. Who makes those AC compressor bearings (and what relevance do they have with safety?). Most likely not GM. 

You need to understand that this is not a GM problem. This is a supplier problem, and furthermore, it is an automotive industry problem, because many companies use the same suppliers, and they screw up sometimes too. LuK screwed up on a defective batch of clutches, then remedied the issue, just to name one example. The fact that these problems have been addressed and remedied should, if anything, be a selling point for the Cruze. 

If you think you're better off with any car other than the Cruze, you're only fooling yourself. The same suppliers provide the same parts, and often times, GM is at the mercy of those suppliers and are forced to take the heat when they screw up. 

We here at CruzeTalk do the best we can to help people with their problems, but you have to keep in mind that people come in here specifically to vent about their problems. The nature of the forum is such that it is a magnet of sorts for people who have problems. It is in no way representative of all Cruzes on the road today. In fact, there are many people here with perfectly functioning Cruzes that have absolutely no issue. 

You coming in here and bashing the car for reasons you don't fully understand is not what I would consider tactful. Instead of bashing the car, you would have been better served asking questions about the problems you've found to determine whether or not they are legitimate concerns.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Good riddance.

I really wish I had my moderator privileges here to clean up some of the nonsensical, unfounded CRAP people post on this site...


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

I think the OP needs to look more closely at those brake failure posts. I think there is actually only TWO users who have had this issue, there are a few more posts claiming to have had that problem but they are TROLLS. look at there limited post on cruzetalk, then look at the content of their posts...

"WOW SO SCARY, ALMOST KILLED EVERYONE I KNOW WITH THIS CAR!!!" 

Reality is they never respond to any inquiry by anyone. I for one know if I have an issue, especially a big one I am going to report back & let everyone know what the dealer found. I can't think of any real user who would just make 3-4 posts claiming nothing but issues & never responds to user feedback.


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## Mick (Dec 31, 2011)

Kbai


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## mcg75 (Mar 5, 2012)

spacedout said:


> I think the OP needs to look more closely at those brake failure posts. I think there is actually only TWO users who have had this issue, there are a few more posts claiming to have had that problem but they are TROLLS. look at there limited post on cruzetalk, then look at the content of their posts...
> 
> "WOW SO SCARY, ALMOST KILLED EVERYONE I KNOW WITH THIS CAR!!!"
> 
> Reality is they never respond to any inquiry by anyone. I for one know if I have an issue, especially a big one I am going to report back & let everyone know what the dealer found. I can't think of any real user who would just make 3-4 posts claiming nothing but issues & never responds to user feedback.


Agreed 100%. What some people don't get is that no company makes 10,000 of the same part without a failure. Nobody. A 1% failure rate on mass produced part is pretty much top of the line quality.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

As long as the government keeps on pouring tons of salt on unplowed roads, every car I have ever owned had brake problems.

With a Honda, rear brakes were rusted so bad, couldn't even budge the shoes with full brake pedal pressure with the drums off. And it literally took hours to remove those drums they were rusted on so bad. Every vehicle had problems with brake lines rusting off. Cruze is one for the first cars I have ever owned that has a plastic coating on these lines. Hopefully they will last slightly beyond warranty.

With unibody vehicles, rocker panel is the first to rust out, and that is the only panel to give lateral support to the vehicle, center of these vehicles actually dips toward the ground.

ABS, required by law really gives extremely expensive problems to repair, those valves lock solid preventing fluid flow to the wheels. In brief, no braking with those wheels.

Your complaint is valid, but take your issues up with the government. And good luck with these self appointed dictators, I sure in the **** didn't elect them.

In designing military products, had to pass a thousand hour salt spray test. That is only six weeks long. Our vehicles are exposed to this salt all winter long and are consumer grade.

Not only brakes, but these newer wheel hubs freezing up due to salt rust, not only brake lines, but fuel lines as well. How about waking up and finding 25 gallons of gas leaked out all over your garage floor!

Not only are our vehicles damaged with road salt, but the roads as well. Huge raising of concrete slabs when that salt melted water seeps under, thins out and freezes. But the idiots running this country blamed studded snow tires for that.

If that isn't enough, if you own a Gulstream, 100% deductible for entertaining your potential customers or suckers is more like it. But try and deduct your expenses to your miserable job or school.

Yes there are problems, but just find the right people to blame for these.


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## Dale_K (Jul 16, 2011)

I think the brake failure issue had something to do with the failure of the supplemental vacuum pump and I expect to see more of this on other brands of cars too. I have a 2012 Jeep and it also has a supplemental vacuum pump and I was confused about why the new vehicles should need them. Certainly you didn't need them during the past 50 years with vacuum power brake systems, why now? The answer I got is the VVT systems on modern engines can operate in modes where very little intake manifold vacuum is present and thus the need for an additional vacuum source. Of course that introduces more failure paths, like the relay for the supplemental pump, etc.

Not an excuse for GM but a new way for cars to have trouble. I don't know what GM needs to to to obtain 100% reliability. The brakes still work but no power assist.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

You don't get 20"/Hg vacuum that translates to about a negative 10 psi with a turbo engine. More like a positive 15 psi of reverse pressure, so a vacuum pump becomes a necessity. Or just get rid of the turbo.

Or get rid of the vacuum operated brake booster. A great effort was put into this in the 90's with all electric brakes, but just too much reliability problems. Technology just doesn't exist yet, still learning.

I will keep my turbos and learned how to live with vacuum assist, love the increase performance and fuel economy. And assist it is, as long as the brakes still work, just requires an extra amount of foot pressure.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

NickD said:


> I will keep my turbos and learned how to live with vacuum assist, love the increase performance and fuel economy. And assist it is, as long as the brakes still work, just requires an extra amount of foot pressure.


Amen, brother! 

Almost out of B2B warranty on my Cruze, and no brake issues. I thought that thread was over-run with trolls blowing up a very isolated issue. We still have a physical cable actuating the rear brakes in case of total hydraulic failure. Yank up on the handle and let it lock into place while guiding the car away from other things. 

And, it sounds like nobody's driven a car without vacuum-assisted brakes. If you're a normal-size American, it's possible to do for a short trip. Oh wait, we "want" self-driving cars that take care of themselves, and don't want to do anything physically active anymore...


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

sciphi said:


> And, it sounds like nobody's driven a car without vacuum-assisted brakes. If you're a normal-size American, it's possible to do for a short trip.


Lol, I have. The brake booster went out on my 1985 Saab, and it took me 500+ feet to stop from 45 mph going through a yellow light. I was stomping on the brake pedal with both feet and the car was just ever-so-gradually slowing down.

A police officer came after me, but acknowledged seeing my brake lights through the whole intersection and let me off as long as I had the car towed home. 

My friend had an old Bug where you really had to hit the brakes hard, but it stopped much easier than that Saab did without the power assist.


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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

Really don't recall any problems driving my old 1937 Cadillac Limo, a V-16 powered car that tipped the scales at 7,500 pounds. Was 16 years old at the time and about a foot shorter than I am today. No power brakes, no power steering, but recall it was a dream to drive. Ha, peer pressure made me get rid of it, should rent it out to funeral homes. 

They also had a hill holder back then, stepping on the clutch when stopped also engaged the brakes, no problems starting off when stopped on an upward hill. All forgotten technology with these new kids on the block. With well over a hundred year history, some of this old stuff is still great.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

NickD said:


> Really don't recall any problems driving my old 1937 Cadillac Limo, a V-16 powered car that tipped the scales at 7,500 pounds. Was 16 years old at the time and about a foot shorter than I am today. No power brakes, no power steering, but recall it was a dream to drive. Ha, peer pressure made me get rid of it, should rent it out to funeral homes.
> 
> They also had a hill holder back then, stepping on the clutch when stopped also engaged the brakes, no problems starting off when stopped on an upward hill. All forgotten technology with these new kids on the block. With well over a hundred year history, some of this old stuff is still great.


The salesman I test drove a few Cruzes with said that some of these cars WERE equipped with a "hill-assist" manual transmission!

I've never seen one, though. I know Sonics have it.

I remember reading an article about Cadillac's "sixteen" as I believe it was called. Must have been an amazing car.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

NickD said:


> Really don't recall any problems driving my old 1937 Cadillac Limo, a V-16 powered car that tipped the scales at 7,500 pounds. Was 16 years old at the time and about a foot shorter than I am today. No power brakes, no power steering, but recall it was a dream to drive. Ha, peer pressure made me get rid of it, should rent it out to funeral homes.
> 
> They also had a hill holder back then, stepping on the clutch when stopped also engaged the brakes, no problems starting off when stopped on an upward hill. All forgotten technology with these new kids on the block. With well over a hundred year history, some of this old stuff is still great.


I wouldn't mind hearing how you came to own one of those. Researching those, they only made 4,xxx of them, so I imagine they were quite rare. 

I know you're older than most of us (or all of us) here, but the mentioning of this car really makes one wonder how old you really are, haha. I don't intend to be or anything; it's just curiosity.


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## Skraeling (May 30, 2012)

ringland problem for the older gen sti's anyone? go to a car specific forum and youll find tons of problems with anything heh.

and uh nickD... my wrx had a hill holder so no... some of us havnt forgotten anything.


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

obermd said:


> I did just reread it. It appears that the problems are pretty much limited to the 2011 Cruzen. The 2012's that report are most likely improperly adjusted rear brakes because they appear to be all related to braking while backing up. Improperly adjusted rear brakes will adversly impact braking while in reverse.
> 
> This tells me that GM has corrected the problem at Lordstown (or in the supply chain to Lordstown). For the owners who didn't specify model year I took a look at the "join date" for the poster.


Perhaps I did not factor in the Troll factor when reading through that thread. I really am still very interested in the Cruze. 

That said, I did test drive a 2012 Cruze Eco a couple days ago. I had the salesman with me when we took the car out.

I did notice almost immediately on this particular car a very soft and low brake pedal upon the first application. I commented on this condition immediately to the salesman. It definitely caught my attention! I attributed it to that fact that this car had rear disc brakes as they don't give as firm as a feel as do rear disc.

BTW, I took this Eco for a test drive *BEFORE *I even knew about the brake issue in that thread.

Oh yea. Sorry about the crack pipe comment to that kid above. That wasn't called for.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> Perhaps I did not factor in the Troll factor when reading through that thread. I really am still very interested in the Cruze.
> 
> That said, I did test drive a 2012 Cruze Eco a couple days ago. I had the salesman with me when we took the car out.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the drum brakes result in a softer brake pedal than most cars, but I believe the braking is very linear in progression - and the brakes work very well if you really need to slam them on.

Every car's brakes take some getting used to. My mom's Accord will smash you into the windshield just breathing on the brake pedal too hard. The girlfriend's 2002 Camry annoyed the **** out of me; it had a very firm pedal and you really had to mash hard on the brakes to get the car to slow down quickly - and the gas pedal was extremely touchy. The 2012 is nice and very linear in both, but I still prefer the way my Cruze drives.


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## rbtec (Feb 3, 2012)

I have had minor problems with the Cruze; that I have not had with any of my other cars. Even though most (I still have banging from under the car after turning the engine off) have been taken care of, it is still a pain. Do not think I will buy another GM vehicle.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> Perhaps I did not factor in the Troll factor when reading through that thread. I really am still very interested in the Cruze.
> 
> That said, I did test drive a 2012 Cruze Eco a couple days ago. I had the salesman with me when we took the car out.
> 
> ...


A soft brake pedal feel can be attributed to several things. Consider that new brake rotors may have packaging film still applied to them that hasn't worn off, and the initial "break-in" film on the pads themselves is also still there. One or two miles of driving may not be enough to allow the pads to completely break in. I know my Cruze brakes are much more sensitive than that on my 2000 Regal GSE or 1995 Regal. 

The troll factor is always there. Consider the following quote:

"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathan Swift

I think that quote applies to excellent cars as well.


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## Skraeling (May 30, 2012)

maybe he could upgrade to stainless steel lines  (yea i know its just a steel jacket and the line inside is still rubber..)


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> "When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathan Swift


Good stuff right there.

|I think I'm going to take a break from car shopping now and "Go fly a kite". ;>)


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Soft brakes can also be a sign of incorrectly adjusted brakes. If the rear brakes are adjusted properly you have to press the pedal a lot farther to get the same braking effect.


The cruze MTs don't have the "hill assist". Sonics do.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> Good stuff right there.
> 
> |I think I'm going to take a break from car shopping now and "Go fly a kite". ;>)


You should consider it on a literal sense as well. It's more relaxing and enjoyable than one would expect such a simple activity to be. It forces you to slow down and enjoy what's around you; almost therapeutic. I've been meaning to get out there again with my dual-string, 96" wingspan stunt kite. I can't hold my balance standing up if the winds pick up with that thing, lol.


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## GoldenCruze (Dec 18, 2011)

> That said, I did test drive a 2012 Cruze Eco a couple days ago. I had the salesman with me when we took the car out. I did notice almost immediately on this particular car a very soft and low brake pedal upon the first application. I commented on this condition immediately to the salesman. It definitely caught my attention! I attributed it to that fact that this car had rear disc brakes as they don't give as firm as a feel as do rear disc.


 I may not remember correctly, but I don't think that the rear disk is available for the Eco trim. I have a 2LT that comes standard with rear disk and it has never had a soft feel.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

The ECO has rear drums.


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## Bohdan (Apr 28, 2012)

obermd said:


> OP is also forgetting the single biggest truism about forums like Cruzetalk. They will ALWAYS show more problems than there really are simply because people with problems will show up here to complain to try to get help or just to complain. There are nearly 500,000 Lordstown built Cruzen sold (leased) and I have yet to see one sitting on the side of the road. Even scanning the NHTSA complaint database is misleading because the same NHTSA complaint number appears multiple times.


Before we bought our Cruze we looked at the *Fiat 500* and found out they have soooo many problems and ran away and got the Cruze which has been great. So far we have seen 4 Fiat 500s broken down on the road with smoke rising from the front hood. Our brakes are fine with very little dust and great stopping power having all wheels with Calipers on.


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## AaronR1074 (May 23, 2012)

I think the best part about driving the Cruze is the brakes. I dunno what you're complaining about. It saved the lives of many squirrels in the past couple months. Or maybe it was the same one over and over.. I dunno. It feels soft at first but as soon as you hit that petal with any type of marginal force it grips like a Mo'Fo


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## pntballer925 (Feb 27, 2011)

Labrat0116 said:


> Troll alert ? My logic is WAY off ? Put the crack pipe down kid. It's effecting your ability to reason and type.
> 
> After you sober up, Read this thread below. SERIOUSLY.
> 
> http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/25-service-issues/4388-brakes-quit-working.html


So. let me get this straight. You read one thread about brake failure and you're not going to buy the car? My cruze is a year and a half old, with 32,000 miles on it. I'm 19 so I dog the living h-e-l-l out of my little Cruze. And not once has it ever been to the dealer for ANY kind of service. I have not had a single problem with it. When you factor in how many cruzes are sold in a month (well over 20,000 last i read), even 1000 cruzes with brake failures is nothing to worry about. Just today I was doing 105 on the way to work. Someone cut in front of me and i slammed on my brakes. yeah it started shaking and making a lot of noise, but it's not a performance brake system. But fact of the matter is, it still slowed me from 105 to 50 in just a few seconds. Don't base your whole outlook on life based on one small factor.


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## sciphi (Aug 26, 2011)

obermd said:


> Soft brakes can also be a sign of incorrectly adjusted brakes. If the rear brakes are adjusted properly you have to press the pedal a lot farther to get the same braking effect.
> 
> 
> The cruze MTs don't have the "hill assist". Sonics do.


The rear drums are poorly adjusted from the factory. It's not a problem exclusive to Lordstown, or even Chevrolet. Our Japan-assembled Fit had the same exact problem. Easy fix, though.


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## ErikBEggs (Aug 20, 2011)

I've driven a 2012 LT and my 2011 LTZ. The pedal feel is soft on the LT, but if you actually press the brakes it stops with AUTHORITY. The LTZ has super sensitive brakes though. No pedal travel needed to stop. Brakes stronger than my old Infiniti


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## Hoon (Mar 18, 2012)

LOL @ this thread. 

You really told GM! 

:goodjob:























:uhh:


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

pntballer925 said:


> So. let me get this straight. You read one thread about brake failure and you're not going to buy the car?


Nope. Only two threads actually. 

The first thread was 16 pages long and extremely detailed and informative. The other thread about half as long addressing a completely different brake issue. More than enough info to digest.

If you've been following along, I've backed off my TOTAL stance of not buying a Cruze, to possibly. I have time on my side to make an informed decision.


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

Hoon said:


> LOL @ this thread.
> 
> You really told GM!
> 
> :goodjob: :uhh:


You don't believe GM has people reading all the different forums about their vehicles ? There is at least (1) on this forum publicly. And rest assured loads others either as member's themselves, troll mode and/or lurking about. In any case, manufacturers do care what people think of their products. Word does get out.


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## silverls (Nov 12, 2011)

I believe i will make a statement about this.

I notice a considerable difference upon leaving my 10k mile LS and getting into my brand new eco. I thought there was a problem at first with how soft the pedal was. Now at 1300 miles i am back to normal. 

In my experience, every GM vehicle i have driven had a much softer pedal than other companies. In my moms old astrovan you could literally put the petal on the floor without a ton of effort. The vehicle stopped fine, but the pedal itself moved a lot. Same with the GMC Savanna box vans at the company i used to work for. In comparison, my Ranger braked just as well, but the pedal was firm and did not depress as much. Just because the pedal is "soft" or moves a lot when depressed does not always mean the brakes are not working correctly.

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## NickD (Dec 10, 2011)

If you are talking about freeplay, the amount of movement you depress the brake pedal before the brakes engage. Shouldn't be more than an inch in any vehicle, otherwise the brakes are not properly adjusted. Practically all vehicles made today are self adjusting.

After hitting that end of freeplay, the amount of pedal pressure required to bring the vehicle to a rapid stop does vary from vehicle to vehicle, depending on whether it has power assist or not, and if it does, the sensitivity of that power assist.

What disk and drum brakes have in common, both the pads and the shoes must have the ability to self center. Really doesn't take any special test equipment, you can see with your eyes the problems. You don't even need a GM Tech II scanner to bleed brakes with ABS, all that scanner does is by pushing buttons, is to activate the ABS pump. I just find the two wires and apply 12V to them using a lab type power supply. Average current is about 5 amperes. When applying voltage, just loosen the bleeder connected to a catch container, and those bubbles and air fly out in seconds, when its pure, close and tighten the bleeder.

A dual reservoir master cylinder uses half of it for the FL and RR, other half for the FR and RL, if any of these pads, not self centering, or shoes not automatically adjusting, your brake pedal will be low before activation.

You can hand feel the shoes or the pads to see if they are loose, doesn't take a brain for this, just common sense. Pistons have to move in and out freely, as pads wear, pistons extend way out, those boots are just mere protection and corrosion builds up around that piston. When you release the pedal, a vacuum is created to pull the pads back in, if corroded, won't do that.

An age old problem is that all brake fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it draws and retains moisture that causes corrosion. Worse place for this to happen is on the inside of the ABS module. Another key problem area is at the lower anchors for shoes, always find a tad of rust on those. Can't have that, otherwise those shoes won't self center causing noises. On some cars, have to remove and paint the backing plates after a good sanding. Can't have free shoes with rusted out backing plates.

Its all common sense, but seems to be a shortage of common sense in the automotive world. Road salt sure doesn't help, but at least GM has started to plate some of the key brake components.

You have to have good brakes, your life depends upon it, as to others.


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## silverls (Nov 12, 2011)

NickD said:


> Its all common sense, but seems to be a shortage of common sense in the automotive world.


i like this


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Common sense is actually a very uncommon thing. Seems to be going the way of the dodo with people lately...


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## nobog (Oct 25, 2011)

mcg75 said:


> Agreed 100%. What some people don't get is that no company makes 10,000 of the same part without a failure. Nobody. A 1% failure rate on mass produced part is pretty much top of the line quality.


Well.. I work for a company that makes heart valves. If we had a 1% failure rate we would be out of business. A defect rate of 1% (or even .01%) in todays computer controlled manufacturing would be very rare.

Jim


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Heart valves =/= cars. Plus there are like 82934839382883 parts in cars. 

Your argument is invalid. 


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app


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## nobog (Oct 25, 2011)

You said _*NOBODY*_. I beg to differ..

A 1% defect rate is actually very uncommon. 

JK


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## Kinmartin0789 (Feb 18, 2011)

I feel like the original argument is like "i cant go outside because people die out there" argument. if one believes there should be a "no fail rate" on anything they have forgotten we are human and we ultimately suck lol.


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> Heart valves =/= cars. Plus there are like 82934839382883 parts in cars.
> 
> Your argument is invalid.


You totally missed his point.

It's the nature of the product. A heart valve is an extremely critical piece of hardware! It's NOT like say a door handle on a car. If a heart valve fails the patient DIES. If your door handle fails, you can't get into your car. See the difference now ?

I'm a Clinical Scientist (Medical Technologist) by trade. In my job, a 1% error rate is totally unacceptable. If I Crossmatch the wrong type of blood on even 1 patient, they DIE.

Back to the brake issues.

*Do you think brakes have the effect on SAFETY as a door handle ?*

I thought so.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> You totally missed his point.
> 
> It's the nature of the product. A heart valve is an extremely critical piece of hardware! It's NOT like say a door handle on a car. If a heart valve fails the patient DIES. If your door handle fails, you can't get into your car. See the difference now ?
> 
> ...


You have every reason to be concerned regarding an issue related to brakes. However, please note that this site has been around for 2-3 years now and only one person complained of a brake failure. That person is also arguably a troll since they only have 4 or so posts on this forum and never came back to report on a problem. I'd say the premise of your concern is questionable at best, and you have absolutely nothing to be worried about.


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> A soft brake pedal feel can be attributed to several things. Consider that new brake rotors may have packaging film still applied to them that hasn't worn off, and the initial "break-in" film on the pads themselves is also still there. One or two miles of driving may not be enough to allow the pads to completely break in.


I should mention, I've test driven about 10-12 cars in the last couple weeks too include an LT Cruze (unknown what the back brakes were) and ALL were under 50 miles on them and ALL had nice firm brakes.


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You have every reason to be concerned regarding an issue related to brakes. However, please note that this site has been around for 2-3 years now and only one person complained of a brake failure. That person is also arguably a troll since they only have 4 or so posts on this forum and never came back to report on a problem. I'd say the premise of your concern is questionable at best, and you have absolutely nothing to be worried about.


That is reassuring.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

The single biggest difference between pacemakers and cars is the sheer number of parts in a car. Even if each individual part of a car has the same reliability as a pacemaker, the overall failure rate for cars would still be significantly higher. On top of that, pacemakers are made to a higher standard than any part in a car.

For example - assume 1 in 1,000,000 failure rate for each part in a car. If you have 1,000 parts in the car, the expected failure rate for cars would be 1 in 100,000.


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## Mick (Dec 31, 2011)

Kinmartin0789 said:


> I feel like the original argument is like "i cant go outside because people die out there" argument. if one believes there should be a "no fail rate" on anything they have forgotten we are human and we ultimately suck lol.


Qft

/thread


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> You totally missed his point.
> 
> It's the nature of the product. A heart valve is an extremely critical piece of hardware! It's NOT like say a door handle on a car. If a heart valve fails the patient DIES. If your door handle fails, you can't get into your car. See the difference now ?
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm missing any point. All car manufacturers have problems - even the ones renowned for quality control. 

Toyota has recurring problems with water pumps on 2.5L engines (and the acceleration issues). Honda auto transmissions like to self-destruct or go into limp mode when accelerating from stops - and they have a reasonably high failure rate. Wheel bearings and ball joints fail on Chrysler vehicles and can cause one to lose control. I could keep going on...

If it was anything more than a few isolated cases, they'd issue a major recall on the vehicles. They'd have to nowadays - the NHTSA is up in every car manufacturer's business these days.


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## Labrat0116 (Sep 7, 2012)

jblackburn said:


> If it was anything more than a few isolated cases, they'd issue a major recall on the vehicles. They'd have to nowadays - the NHTSA is up in every car manufacturer's business these days.


According to the NHTSA database, there are (17) brake related complaints to date.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm

How many are UN-reported ?

How many is "isolated" ?

At what point does the NHTSA take action ?

I guess it's like when citizens want to put up a stop sign or red light at a dangerous intersection. 

How many accidents or how many people have to die before the municipality/state take action. ??


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> According to the NHTSA database, there are (17) brake related complaints to date.
> 
> http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm
> 
> ...


What are the specific complaints? Are they all related?

Even so, 17 out of over 500,000 isn't something I would be worried about assuming they are legitimate concerns and not driver error.


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## obermd (Mar 3, 2012)

Labrat0116 said:


> According to the NHTSA database, there are (17) brake related complaints to date.
> 
> http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm
> 
> ...


Do they all have unique NHTSA incident numbers? I have discovered that the NHTSA web-site will return the same incident multiple times.


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