# Slight transmission flare into 3rd when cold (diesel)



## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Does this happen to anybody else? I've noticed a couple times in the morning a very slight flare going into 3rd. It started happening around 186K miles. It's very subtle and I only notice it because I've been driving the car since new and it's slightly different. Doesn't really seem like an issue, but definitely something to take note of. Anybody else?


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

Transmission flare = internal component wear. 

Remind me again about your ATF services.


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## oldestof11 (Apr 3, 2016)

Yep. When I drive, I put it in manual as I have 3-4 blocks with stop signs. Once I'm in the highway I put it back into auto. I remember a brand new one doing it when I tear drove the first one that came to my local dealer. Was a December morning with snow.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Tomko said:


> Transmission flare = internal component wear.
> 
> Remind me again about your ATF services.


Amsoil fluid was put in about 60K miles ago, but with my driving habits I figured I could get away with the longer change interval. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to swap it out again, as I did the 3X change, which only got out about 80% of the original fluid. 



oldestof11 said:


> Yep. When I drive, I put it in manual as I have 3-4 blocks with stop signs. Once I'm in the highway I put it back into auto. I remember a brand new one doing it when I tear drove the first one that came to my local dealer. Was a December morning with snow.


Interesting. I never noticed mine doing that until recently. Mine is the only diesel Cruze I've ever driven, though, so i don't have a point of reference. 

I am also higher miles than anybody else on this forum, so it stands to reason that I will most likely be the first to get the "component wear" issues. To be clear, though, it shifts and performs perfectly fine except for the very first shift into 3rd.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

A little more followup on this. Seems like the Aisin AW40-6 does have a valve body issue that will cause a 2-3 flare (higher mileage examples). I am optimistic that a fluid change will correct this. I am going to try to get this done in the next few weeks.


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

Pretty sure I recall this issue popping up on some Volvo vehicles using the same trans, and I do believe it was a solenoid problem. I'm going to see if I can find that article...or video, or whatever it was.


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

Diesel, did you see this? https://www.ipdusa.com/techtips/10176/volvo-tf80-awf21-transmission-issues

There's a bit in there where he talks about the 2-3 shift flaring, followed by really hard engagement of 3rd, and warns that '_you only get to do that twice, then we have to rebuild it_ (due to case damage). Maybe some gentle driving is in order until the problem is sorted.....


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## joshuab (Apr 16, 2014)

diesel said:


> Does this happen to anybody else? I've noticed a couple times in the morning a very slight flare going into 3rd. It started happening around 186K miles. It's very subtle and I only notice it because I've been driving the car since new and it's slightly different. Doesn't really seem like an issue, but definitely something to take note of. Anybody else?


You know mine has did this for awhile then cleared up & then has came back. Mine has about 200 to 300 RPM rev before shifting into the 3rd gear. Its not rough just has that delay in shift before it completes. It doesn't jerk me in the seat or anything but as you have said its noticeable since I have drove this car since its new. My model is 6T40 transmission auto 

But you know its weird, when its cold it shifts like a dream just as it warms up is when the noticeable shift flare does your do this?


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## BrandoFisher117 (Mar 14, 2016)

There are a couple of gassers (myself and @sparkman) that have this issue. On mine, from 3rd to 4th, the trans will flare shift, but my RPMs will go anywhere from +500 to +1000 RPMs. Had it in at the dealership and they said that they could not replicate. Have been working with GM Customer Care, but unfortunately, when it happens, I cannot always take it straight to the dealership, leave the car on, and let them take a look at it. My commute to work is 120 miles, round trip, I leave at 5:45am and usually don't get home till around 6:00 - 7:00pm. So I'm kinda in a bind when it comes to getting it in to the dealership.


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## BrandoFisher117 (Mar 14, 2016)

joshuab said:


> You know mine has did this for awhile then cleared up & then has came back. Mine has about 200 to 300 RPM rev before shifting into the 3rd gear. Its not rough just has that delay in shift before it completes. It doesn't jerk me in the seat or anything but as you have said its noticeable since I have drove this car since its new. My model is 6T40 transmission auto
> 
> But you know its weird, when its cold it shifts like a dream just as it warms up is when the noticeable shift flare does your do this?


Thats odd, IMO. The issue I seem to be having usually happens when it is cold then sometimes it will get better as it warms up.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

beaurrr said:


> Diesel, did you see this? https://www.ipdusa.com/techtips/10176/volvo-tf80-awf21-transmission-issues
> 
> There's a bit in there where he talks about the 2-3 shift flaring, followed by really hard engagement of 3rd, and warns that '_you only get to do that twice, then we have to rebuild it_ (due to case damage). Maybe some gentle driving is in order until the problem is sorted.....


Thanks for that. That is pretty good evidence that I probably shouldn't have waited so long to do my initial fluid change. I ordered some of the Amsoil signature series and hope to get the fluid changed this weekend. Hopefully that can extend the life a bit. I am not sure what's reasonable to expect from a transmission. 200K? 300K? more?



joshuab said:


> You know mine has did this for awhile then cleared up & then has came back. Mine has about 200 to 300 RPM rev before shifting into the 3rd gear. Its not rough just has that delay in shift before it completes. It doesn't jerk me in the seat or anything but as you have said its noticeable since I have drove this car since its new. My model is 6T40 transmission auto
> 
> But you know its weird, when its cold it shifts like a dream just as it warms up is when the noticeable shift flare does your do this?


Do you have a diesel? The gas Cruzes use a different transmission, so before we go down the path, I want to make sure we're talking about the same transmission.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

What do you mean by "flare"?


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## BrandoFisher117 (Mar 14, 2016)

Shift flare is a condition that occurs on up shifts between a lower gear and a higher gear. The transmission will simply shift out of the lower gear and delay before engaging in the higher gear. This will result in the engine RPMs “flaring” (revving high) prior to engagement in the higher gear. It seems to be more common with lower gears but can happen with any of the shifts. Typically, the transmission will start exhibiting the symptom between the same two gears. Early on, this may only happen randomly once the transmission is warmed up but as it gets worse, it may happen consistently at any temperature


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

Can't say that's something we've noticed.

It jerks like **** at certain conditions if you go to tip into the throttle to maintain speed (usually when you're in 6th, cruising around 50-60 - so probably TC unlocking and locking), and it's downright stupid sometimes when you put your foot to the floor, expect a downshift and it takes a good few _seconds_ to even think of shifting - great when you're trying to pass a car in oncoming...


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## sparkman (Oct 15, 2015)

BrandoFisher117 said:


> There are a couple of gassers (myself and @*sparkman*) that have this issue. On mine, from 3rd to 4th, the trans will flare shift, but my RPMs will go anywhere from +500 to +1000 RPMs. Had it in at the dealership and they said that they could not replicate. Have been working with GM Customer Care, but unfortunately, when it happens, I cannot always take it straight to the dealership, leave the car on, and let them take a look at it. My commute to work is 120 miles, round trip, I leave at 5:45am and usually don't get home till around 6:00 - 7:00pm. So I'm kinda in a bind when it comes to getting it in to the dealership.


Mine still does it. Usually when it's cold and sometimes (but rare) when it's warmed up. 

I've driven two other gasser Cruze's on the lot that have the same issue, but worse. The '13 LTZ I drove for a week did it all the time, and the '15 I drove last night (long story) did it as well.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Gently guiding this back on topic - this thread is specifically for discussion of the diesel transmission, as it is unique. Anyway, I am trying to get to changing the fluid this weekend if everything comes in and we'll see if that makes a difference.


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## BrandoFisher117 (Mar 14, 2016)

diesel said:


> Gently guiding this back on topic - this thread is specifically for discussion of the diesel transmission, as it is unique. Anyway, I am trying to get to changing the fluid this weekend if everything comes in and we'll see if that makes a difference.


I understand that, I was just letting you know that this just isn't a diesel issue.


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

diesel said:


> Gently guiding this back on topic - this thread is specifically for discussion of the diesel transmission, as it is unique. Anyway, I am trying to get to changing the fluid this weekend if everything comes in and we'll see if that makes a difference.


Keep us up to date if this fluid change corrects your issue, will you just drop pan and change once or 3 times like you did before as I recall. I haven't decided yet, but I am thinking every 50k with my driving should be often enough. I assume this transmission would be expensive to rebuild. I know 50k for you is maybe not even 12 months. For me 50K is maybe every 30 months or so. Clean fluid I am guessing is important.


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

Everything I've been able to find regarding this problem on this Aisin transmission (which is installed in many other vehicles) points to a valve body problem; specifically a weak solenoid or two, and not anything to do with the planetaries and clutches. In other words, at worst, a replacement valve body should solve the problem, without need for replacing the whole unit. But, I'm hoping a few drain-and-fills will at least improve the problem.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

IndyDiesel said:


> Keep us up to date if this fluid change corrects your issue, will you just drop pan and change once or 3 times like you did before as I recall. I haven't decided yet, but I am thinking every 50k with my driving should be often enough. I assume this transmission would be expensive to rebuild. I know 50k for you is maybe not even 12 months. For me 50K is maybe every 30 months or so. Clean fluid I am guessing is important.


I plan on doing it the same way as before with the 3 changes. I should have the fluid by Friday and I will report back after a few days to let everybody know if it clears anything up. 

I'm a bit of a pioneer here. It seems like my experience may point to changing fluid every 30K (as others have suggested) would be a better idea than waiting 124K to change it the first time.


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

Once I get a better fix on which ATF I'll use, I think I'll just plan on a single drain-and-fill every 15 or 20 thousand. Car has 20,000 miles now. Sound like a reasonable plan?
That should get me at least as far as Diesel.:smile:


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

beaurrr said:


> Once I get a better fix on which ATF I'll use, I think I'll just plan on a single drain-and-fill every 15 or 20 thousand. Car has 20,000 miles now. Sound like a reasonable plan?
> That should get me at least as far as Diesel.:smile:


That would be better than what I did, I think. You would have done 6 changes before I ever even did my first round of 3.


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## CruzeDan (May 17, 2015)

I don't think that this issue would be abnormal behavior when the transmission is cold. Changing the fluid isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't be too concerned about it.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

CruzeDan said:


> I don't think that this issue would be abnormal behavior when the transmission is cold. Changing the fluid isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't be too concerned about it.


Interesting theory. Can you go into more detail?


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## CruzeDan (May 17, 2015)

I have experienced flares in various transmissions when they are cold. Some manufacturers had bulletins stating it was normal. While I haven't seen anything like that in regards with our transmissions, with the milage on your transmission, it wouldn't be surprising or concerning due to the internal seals aging and varnishing that occurs on the solenoids. It might get better with fluid change, it might not. Transmissions act very strange when they are cold. As long as you don't have any issues at operating temperature you should be ok.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

CruzeDan said:


> I have experienced flares in various transmissions when they are cold. Some manufacturers had bulletins stating it was normal. While I haven't seen anything like that in regards with our transmissions, with the milage on your transmission, it wouldn't be surprising or concerning due to the internal seals aging and varnishing that occurs on the solenoids. It might get better with fluid change, it might not. Transmissions act very strange when they are cold. As long as you don't have any issues at operating temperature you should be ok.


It makes sense - the fluid isn't at it's operating viscosity, so the pressures are thrown all off. Usually the trans programming "knows" this, so it acts in a way that won't cause issues, but does cause it to act funky. My Cobalt's 4T45 won't shift into 4th gear until it hits a certain temperature (only noticeable when it's winter, a condition I no longer drive it in).


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

It's apparently random too. I made a video this morning, and now it's on the 4-5 shift.

https://youtu.be/t2c_iJwSwSY


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

diesel said:


> It's apparently random too. I made a video this morning, and now it's on the 4-5 shift.
> 
> https://youtu.be/t2c_iJwSwSY


I couldn't hear it - but could definitely see it on the tach. 

I don't think its going to get any better over time.


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## IndyDiesel (May 24, 2015)

I have had previous cars do this, 95 Mercedes e300 diesel did it and it had 250k miles, changed fluid and it still did it but never really got worse prior to selling it. I find the specs on this transmission little confusing. I know oem fluid is quite expensive, not sure what and when I will service my 15 ctd transmission, sorta leaning towards more frequent, but mind isn't made up just yet.


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

Tomko said:


> I couldn't hear it - but could definitely see it on the tach.
> 
> I don't think its going to get any better over time.


This is my concern, too.


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

Occasionally my transmission will shift hard in some gears and it will usually last for a little while (i.e. a week) then correct itself. I thought it was fluid at first, but since it kind of comes and goes I justified it to myself as something to do with maybe buggy learning the transmission does.


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## anthonysmith93 (Jul 15, 2015)

sparkman said:


> Mine still does it. Usually when it's cold and sometimes (but rare) when it's warmed up.
> 
> I've driven two other gasser Cruze's on the lot that have the same issue, but worse. The '13 LTZ I drove for a week did it all the time, and the '15 I drove last night (long story) did it as well.


My 1.4 cruze has the 2-3 gear flare too, it does it when it's cold only, but not every time it's cold so mine is basically impossible to predict or diagnose at a dealer. And I only have 44,000 miles and it's done it since I bought it at 21,000 miles. (original trans fluid)


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

VtTD said:


> Occasionally my transmission will shift hard in some gears and it will usually last for a little while (i.e. a week) then correct itself. I thought it was fluid at first, but since it kind of comes and goes I justified it to myself as something to do with maybe buggy learning the transmission does.


Mine has done this since new, but not often.


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## beaurrr (Aug 27, 2016)

diesel said:


> Mine has done this since new, but not often.


In the 2500 miles I've had mine, I don't recall noticing hard upshifts, but definitely a hard downshift here and there, which is seen only on decel.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

beaurrr said:


> In the 2500 miles I've had mine, I don't recall noticing hard upshifts, but definitely a hard downshift here and there, which is seen only on decel.


I am pretty sure it's always been the downshifts for me too.


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## anthonysmith93 (Jul 15, 2015)

diesel said:


> I am pretty sure it's always been the downshifts for me too.


I think the fact that our trans is more "manu-matic" and less automatic makes the downshifts more noticeable, like they are in a true manual.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

I definitely enjoy the noticeable downshifts. They feel deliberate - and contrary to the typical consumer's thinking - that means more efficient.


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## pandrad61 (Jul 8, 2015)

> i am pretty sure it's always been the downshifts for me too.


mine does as well. 4th to 3rd or was it 3rd to second.. One of the two. I stopped counting since it doesnt worry me as much any more


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Finally changed the fluid last night. It looked a bit like brown metallic paint when it came out, so there's definitely some wear going on inside the transmission after 191K miles and only 2 fluid changes. It's back to smooth shifting now. I will update if the flare returns.


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## mkohan (Dec 19, 2015)

diesel said:


> Finally changed the fluid last night. It looked a bit like brown metallic paint when it came out, so there's definitely some wear going on inside the transmission after 191K miles and only 2 fluid changes. It's back to smooth shifting now. I will update if the flare returns.


Glad to hear it all worked out. Was the new fill plug hex, allen or something else? Do you recall the size?


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

mkohan said:


> Glad to hear it all worked out. Was the new fill plug hex, allen or something else? Do you recall the size?


The new one was a T45 part number 11099271


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## pacolino (Aug 1, 2015)

diesel said:


> Finally changed the fluid last night. It looked a bit like brown metallic paint when it came out, so there's definitely some wear going on inside the transmission after 191K miles and only 2 fluid changes. It's back to smooth shifting now. I will update if the flare returns.


Normally at what mileage should be replaced, for the first time change?

Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

pacolino said:


> Normally at what mileage should be replaced, for the first time change?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS631 using Tapatalk



There are differing opinions on this, but the number I've heard the most often is every 30K. i will probably do every 50K from here on out.


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