# Collective Coolant heater/circulator install thread



## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

I'll start....

Here's the kind of part I've been eying up. 1500W....

Amazon.com: Zerostart 330-8003 Circulation Engine Heater: Automotive


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## KOBALT (Nov 19, 2013)

I looked in to this briefly, but never followed through. I see a few options are available.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

KOBALT said:


> I looked in to this briefly, but never followed through. I see a few options are available.


I'm clueless as to details of the 1.4T but I'd assume our hose sizes are identical to save GM $$$ and streamline manufacturing....


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

I had something like this on an old Benz once. It would get the coolant and engine block nice and warm even on the coldest nights. I am not sure how you would get the coolant past a closed thermostat though since the coolant inside the engine is what opens it up. I know the people who engineered it in the Benz must have figured that out, but I don't know if it would require more complicated setup. Seems like the frostheater people have figured that all out. I wouldn't mind having something like this, but my driving habits would not really allow me to park anywhere that I could plug it in.


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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

THere were threads about this someplace on this site. An effective block heater is supposed to cause codes to be thrown because the sensors will see states it sees as outside of expected parameters.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

You put it behind the thermostat in the heater hoses not off the radiator hoses, I need to find out if theres a check valve anywhere and remedy that


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

boneheaddoctor said:


> THere were threads about this someplace on this site. An effective block heater is supposed to cause codes to be thrown because the sensors will see states it sees as outside of expected parameters.


i find it hard to believe since no codes fly on the comparitively advanced 2014 tdi's but I'm not saying you're wrong either


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## boneheaddoctor (Dec 10, 2014)

Not saying I've seen it happen personally. I've read a thread on this site about it in the last couple months I've owned my Cruze where other people have. I've got block heaters in two of my Benzes and my truck. But none of them have a computer in them. The stereos I have installed are the sole islands of Technology in them. Except for the Garmin thats in the Truck I move between them.

I believe it was a thread about removing the thermostat that's built into the oil pan heater so it works are temperatures most of us will see, and not just the colder regions.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

boneheaddoctor said:


> THere were threads about this someplace on this site. An effective block heater is supposed to cause codes to be thrown because the sensors will see states it sees as outside of expected parameters.





KpaxFAQ said:


> i find it hard to believe since no codes fly on the comparitively advanced 2014 tdi's but I'm not saying you're wrong either


GM vehicles are know to throw codes P0116 from having a block heater used in to warm of conditions. Many newer GM vehicles come with a thermostatically controlled plug for the block heater that won't work above 0F/-18C. However, the CTD does not have this, so maybe we will not have that problem?

I too am interested in adding a bit more heat to the block on the colder days of winter, but have not pulled the trigger on anything. 
I have also wondered if a circulating heater would work well on our cars. I purchased an inline radiator hose heater, but have never installed it as I am not sure if it would work as I hope.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

I'm curious if it throws codes if you were too heat things up too much? Such as the coolant were to start warmer then desired and the engine thinks there's an overheating condition? They do make these units that have their own thermostats. You can set them to shut down when the coolant is at say 175F.

That might not matter to some who will just run on a timer like I will at home to have it kick on say 2 hours before departure but I can plug it in a work too and it would be nice to have it kick on and off at a certain temperature. 

I tend to maintain and build everything overkill because I build infrastructure for a living which is all built to withstand quite a bit. My dad is always chuckling how everything in my house is "commercial grade" from my washing machine to coffee pot. 

This is no different, I don't know if I need 1500W version but better to have enough and run it a shorter period or on a thermostat then be wishing you had more!


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

The conditions for setting PO116 on GM vehicles is as follows: 

5.3L engine block heater - Page 3 - Ask the GM Technician - GM-Trucks.com

"Conditions for Running the DTC

• The ignition is ON. 

• DTCs P0112, P0113, P0116, P0117, P0118, P0128, P0502, P0503 are not set. 

• The start-up IAT is more than -7°C (+20°F). 

• The vehicle has a minimum ignition OFF time of 10 hours. 

• DTC P0116 runs once per drive cycle when the above conditions are met. 


Conditions for Setting the DTC

• The start-up ECT is more than the start-up IAT by 100°C (180°F). OR 

• The start-up ECT is more than the start-up IAT by 15°C (27°F), then the vehicle must be driven for more than 400 seconds over 24 km/h (15 mph). If the IAT sensor temperature decreases more than 8°C (14°F), a block heater is detected and the test is aborted. If the IAT sensor temperature does not decrease, a block heater was not detected and DTC P0116 sets. "

As I said our CTD block heaters do not have any thermostatically controlled plug so maybe, just maybe we are immune to this GM problem?


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Great info, I'm on my way out to the door but even if we do suffer this, am I understanding it correctly when it looks to just be a harmless code that will go away once the conditions go away?


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

BlueAngel has installed a heater like this in his 1.4L, and he mentioned via a PM to me that he's having problems with the codes, and would write a How To after he get's it figured out. It sounded like he was struggling with it. 

Yes there's the one code mentioned above, but I wonder if that in turn sets other nuisance codes.


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## lostjuan (Jan 21, 2011)

I have been thinking about doing this every winter, of course no garage so plan to do it in the summer. One of those things I have never gotten around to. My question is does the heater coolant flow valve close during the time the car is not running. If so this would make an install a waste of time if the valve is closed.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

New to the board and just purchased 2015 Cruze diesel. I also have an interest in adding a block/ circ tank heater to this small diesel. I live in northern IL and the town I live in holds the state record for coldest temp of -36 F without wind chill. In the past I've own a rabbit diesel, OLDs gas conv diesel, toyota diesel pickup and currently own a F350 6.0L PS plus now the new Cruze diesel. What I found over the years is that most diesel will not start at colder then -10 F without heat and if they did start they sound like they were going to explode with all the rattling until they begin to warm up. On my F350 I use timed heat at temps colder then 20 F not because of any starting issues it just sounds so much BETTER when it starts warm plus avoids the wear caused by cold starts.

I've began checking some of the links but did not find any where there was an install, has anyone found one? In the past I've install a freeze plug heater on the 1.9 L Rabbit diesel and a circl tank heat on a Gm V8. On the V8 something like this might work where one would remove one of the block drain plugs, install hose fitting, insert circ heater and outlet of heater would "Y" into the heater return line. I was thinking of something like this on the Cruze but have not looked into the details at this point i.e. any block drain plugs to use on the cruze and whether there is any obstruction to flow in the heater return hose?

Are there currently another approaches that are being investigated?


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

My CTD has started without problem for two winters consistently at -10f and much colder. 

Did anyone pause to wonder why GM decided to use an oil pan heater of 150 watts on this engine as opposed to a block heater?

I'm guessing that they had a very good engineering reason that's lost on us shade trees.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> and the town I live in holds the state record for coldest temp of -36 F without wind chill.


wind chill has zero impact on a car, the temperature is the temperature

the cruze diesel starts perfectly as it is much colder

but yeah it'd be nice to have more heat sooner.

and as mentioned earlier, aftermarket coolant heaters end up confusing these fancy computerized cars and you get codes


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

yea thanks for the welcome also boraz; wind chill understood... but some people want to believe wind chill makes diff to mech thingy also. But you are right and my only point was it was a REAL temp of -36 F but then again wind chill does make a diff as you overlook the fact wind chill implies there is a wind which means anything in the wind will cool off FASTER with wind then without a wind so ...wind chill does have its place in the calculation of things i.e. time!!

Tomko, no need to pause and ponder GM clamp on oil pan heater... can you say a forgotten but needed after thought in cold climates but most important "CHEEEEEP"!! Yes engineering at its best for GM. Or maybe like GM's Northstar design where for 18 yrs nearly all the Northstars blew head gaskets in under 122K mi and some at only 35K mi, or the plastic gears in the transmissions, or even the plastic plenum on 3.8L with HOT EGR gasses running through the plastic burning a hole into the water passage causing engine cyl's to fill up with coolant or even the current Cruze with the poorly crimped (-) battery cable terminal causing all those intermittent electrical problems (200 mi on the clock and mine would not even start, had to re-engineer the battery cables so it would even start/run, see ALL the posts on this forum). Yes quality "JOB ONE" at GM, I guess?? At least compared with the scandal at VW with the EPA over their TDI emission problems!

Yes some diesels may start at -10 F and no heat with or without wind chill but you would be lucky with the BIO blend crap in this area. They will also sound like crap, like marbles in a tin can being shaken in the wind, CAN YOU SAY ENGINE WEAR!! Diesel like to run in warm weather esp with BIO blend and they will last a long time if given detailed proper care. Yes it really is a complex problem or you can ignore the issues and put band-aids on as VW did?? 

Go ahead and run yours ALL day on cold start cycle when its -36 F outside and change your oil every 800 mi with BIO crap fuel, LOL, but I would EXPECT mine to go at least 300K mi with the proper care. :th_salute:


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

I'm happy to see some interest in this. I lost time/motivation since it's work's busy season and I have an 18 month old sucking the very life and energy out me every time he can lol. This mod is not necessary for the car to start which is why GM went cheap with the oil pan heater/lack of block heater. It's just not necessary for reliable operation within the 100k powertrain warranty period. No need to think any deeper, engineering is about doing the cheapest, least complicated, to meet the required demands of the application. 

What would be awesome about this mod is the ability to have red hot heat immediately at start up and a block/coolant/oil pretty close to operating temperature already. Lots of things will start under various conditions but listening to my CTD start below zero is frankly pretty ugly even though it never fails. It's hard on the battery and everything else. 

It's really one of those mods that you do if you're an enthusiasts with time on their hands looking for a fun project 

I hope if I have some extended time off during winter like last year maybe I can get my head back into this.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

hi KpaxFAQ, good meeting a fellow enthusiast. Since owning several different diesels over the years and learning ways to make them very reliable starters in Northern Illinois climate I've started a new project with this Cruze diesel. With my F350 one weak link was the FICM where the internal components were very marginal on their specs for the application and I had to redesign with components with greater margin to make the unit reliable. So that brings me back around to the new project Cruze. I've already been through the battery cable issue and redesign of the battery cable setup/layout. Now its onto the issue of a block heater to insure reliable starts in Northern Ill with the crap BIO blend fuel and our cold temps before winter sets in. Its a bummer to go out every 4 hrs running the engine for 15 min to insure starts at -36 F as I'm not fortunate enough to have a heated garage to park it in when and if the temp drops to -36 F.

Yes I understand there may be CEL codes to deal with but remains to be seen what they will be? The real question is what the exact codes are and why they are being set. When one thinks about the normal driving patterns and heating and cooling the engine one might think this could set the CEl code also but once again that all depends? 

Initial thought would be is that it is a software BUG a programmer overlooked this case exception and the problem should be treated as a defect requiring recall and reprogramming by GM. But depending on the GM bureaucracy this may turn into a DIY hack :grin: to eliminate the issue.

My approach would be to tap into the lower radiator hose running to the circ tank heater mounted lower back passenger side rail and returning the tank outlet "Y" into the compartment heater return hose to the block. This has been the common approach for pre-2015 vehicles. I have not had the lower engine cover off so I do not have the complete picture yet. Any thoughts you would like to share on advancing the topic?

As an off topic side note, my original thought for a daily commuter was a Nissan Leaf but they just dont have a real range I need of 150 miles round trip and they have yet to be forward thinking to see the need of longer range like the Tesla with offering several optional battery capacities. So for now the Cuze is my interim solution until some forward thinking auto manufacturer can fill the void then I may convert to all electric. My local power company has recently put up several acres of solar panels to feed into our local grid.Add my own solar panels and I can drive to and from work free (almost) and sell excess power back to the electric company. :grin:


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> hi KpaxFAQ, good meeting a fellow enthusiast. Since owning several different diesels over the years and learning ways to make them very reliable starters in Northern Illinois climate I've started a new project with this Cruze diesel. With my F350 one weak link was the FICM where the internal components were very marginal on their specs for the application and I had to redesign with components with greater margin to make the unit reliable. So that brings me back around to the new project Cruze. I've already been through the battery cable issue and redesign of the battery cable setup/layout. Now its onto the issue of a block heater to insure reliable starts in Northern Ill with the crap BIO blend fuel and our cold temps before winter sets in. Its a bummer to go out every 4 hrs running the engine for 15 min to insure starts at -36 F as I'm not fortunate enough to have a heated garage to park it in when and if the temp drops to -36 F.
> 
> Yes I understand there may be CEL codes to deal with but remains to be seen what they will be? The real question is what the exact codes are and why they are being set. When one thinks about the normal driving patterns and heating and cooling the engine one might think this could set the CEl code also but once again that all depends?
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're on point. I think the hardest part of any project like this is finding a place to cleanly mount the heater for a neat install. I haven't poked around under the cover yet either. When I changed tranny fluid, I literally cut a hole in the panel where the drain was because the panel was actually a bit of a PITA to take off. So much for a clean install lol 

I don't know what your goals are but I wanted to be mount the biggest heater I could neatly fit on mine. It would be nice to be able to get things warm are quickly as possible as I'd just run mine on a timer anyways. There's a company that makes kits for VW TDI's called frostheater I need to go back and look at any other issues we might run into. If my memory serves me correct their kits come with something to bypass some kind of check valve or the coolant wouldn't circulate. I can't remember.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

i still have my front panel removed from my tranny fluid change

ill take a picture when its light out


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> Now its onto the issue of a block heater to insure reliable starts in Northern Ill with the crap BIO blend fuel and our cold temps before winter sets in.


how is warm coolant going to ensure starting with _crap _fuel?

if the fuel is crap, the engine area _might _be fine, but you got the lines from the tank to the engine...sure the fuel filter is heated when you start the car, but theres been enough threads aboot gelled fuel in these cars....

we have real fuel up here so its not an issue, you should be fine where you are if you shop smart


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Does anyone know with certainty the coolant flow through the radiator? Based on my observations of the hose connections I believe it would be from the driver side to the passenger side.

With that said, I've purchased a Zerostart 1Kw circulating heater locally so to have a retailer to directly work with on this install. Plans are to install the heater input to the passenger side radiator outlet hose. The heater outlet will then "Y" into the cabin heater return to engine block near the oil cooler. The heater would be located in the lower open area which is near the lower right side of the engine. Thi gives the heater a low mounting position with sufficient rise for convection coolant flow. I still need to remove the RT wheel well liner to check out the exact heater mounting details.

Has anyone already attempted this configuration and found out it would not work for any reason?? Thanks.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Finally received all the parts for the block heater install which will be attempted this weekend weather providing.
Below is a photo of the parts I will be using:


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Nice! Let us know how it goes and if a success some parts details would be nice. I'll probably do the same thing during my time off this winter.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

I have not forgotten about this project just a little slow going with having back surgery, honey do list, our first 6" snow with -1 F temps. 

In the mean time I've kept the project going with the below photos of my experiments, and planning the heater location along with procuring a new metal Tee adapter:

Experiment parts








The experiment was to see how a closed loop siphon (circulating heater no pump) type heater would work real life. Bernoulli's principle and Newton's law and decades of hot water heating systems all contribute to how this actually should work.:question: A 1 gallon jug of water simulates a small engine with about 1 1/2 gallons total water capacity including heater and 6' 5/8 hose. Inlet hose is about 27" long and outlet is about 45" long. These lengths were based on what I would expect to use in my installation on the Cruze.








The 1 1/2 gallons of water was heated from a temp of 45 F to 120 F in about 15 mins using what I selected for the heater (1K watt) which represents a 75 F rise from inlet temp. One can extrapolate what that would be with an outside temp of -30 F for a 15 min rise period, note that in a real application there willbe some heating loss. My Ford 6.0L PS diesel with an OEM freeze plug 1200 watt heater heats up to a temp to keep the engine happy with an outside temp of -36 F in 3 hours. The heater location I selected is show below on passenger side on the engine block (note fender liner removed for viewing purposes).








I decided to replace the plastic 1 1/4 Tee, a Doorman with 3/4 hose tap, with a metal Tee intended for installing temp sensors which looks better and simplifies the install. Now the only thing to make the parts list complete is to add 6' of 5/8 hose. Note that the metal Tee comes as a 1 1/4 hose Tee pre-drilled and taped for 1/8 NPT sensor. This required that the original hole be re-drilled and tapped for a 1/4 NPT 5/8 hose adapter which is part of the heater kit. All hose clamps one would need comes with the heater kit and metal Tee adapter.















The only steps remaining are to fabricated a mounting bracket for the intended location and the final install and proof of concept.

My remaining pondering is over the coolant flow through the Cruze block? The Frostheater app on the TDI, if I understand correctly, flows through the block heater to the cabin heater and then through the engine oil cooler back to the engine block and therefore one would not want a check valve in the block heater! The block heater I choose does have a check valve. I believe this is necessary for the install I'm contemplating where the flow is from the lower radiator hose to the cabin heater return to the oil cooler and back to the engine block. Whether any codes will be set still remains to be determined? Posting by another author on this blog stated that a code would be set due to a large temp diff between the heated block temp sensor and the unheated air intake sensor (MAS sensor). I have to admit I don't know at this point? One plan I had if that was the case was to put one of those pad heaters on the air box to see if that would resolve any such temp differential code set.

I might still get this done before the first REAL freeze sets in.:uhh:


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

interesting...


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## Cruzator (Dec 31, 2014)

Personally, I like the freeze plug heaters myself. I've seen too many of the tank type heater burn out (even though you won't get 80 degree air out of your heater right off that bat. Just my preference.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Cruzator said:


> Personally, I like the freeze plug heaters myself. I've seen too many of the tank type heater burn out (even though you won't get 80 degree air out of your heater right off that bat. Just my preference.


I agree 100% one just needs to add a little heat when its -36 F to keep the diesel engine happy. Years ago on vintage 1982 Rabbit diesel it was the simplest job to punch out a freeze plug! Try finding the freeze plug on one of these cars without taking the engine out let alone punching out a freeze plug with the engine install. Or how about the block drain valve/plug? I fully support the KISS principal. I use cir tank heaters on big V8 carburetor gassers when I was staying northern WI years ago. they work just fine yet simple to install.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Nearly a year later after back surgery, divorce, and death of a brother I finally got the motivation to put this project back on track considering current weather forecasts for a cold long 2016/2017 winter. Yesterday the tank heater was located and rigidly mounted in the position previous identified in my posts.

Hope to complete coolant line connections this weekend including full try out with the promise of continued mild weather (best time to work on this project). Will post further photos once installation completed with test results and operation proven.


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## mkohan (Dec 19, 2015)

Sorry to hear of the tough year. Best of luck with project. I'm interested in the results.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Attached are photos of my current install for a circulating tank block heater, note that this is a work in progress and does not represent a fully functioning setup but a simple experiment at this time.

































The hose has been connected into the radiator hose with a 1 1/4" tee to 5/8" hose adapter on the passenger side into the lower block heater connection, the block heater outlet is connected to "y" into the oil cooler coolant input (from cabin heater) on the back passenger side of the engine. I have been driving with this configuration for the last week (710 miles) and this setup appears to result in normal cabin heater operation and typical engine coolant temperature rise and operation during cold start/warm up, city and highway driving... however when use as block heater the heater is unable to circulate the coolant through the engine block as intended.

So the next step is to identify a more appropriate connection point to the engine to achieve proper block heater coolant flow. 

My initial thought on this configuration was that the thermostat was on the driver side radiator hose but in reality it may appear that it is on the passenger side radiator hose which would explain the lack of flow thru the block heater.

Does any member have a schematic of the Cruze 2.0L diesel coolant flow and/or any further definitive information on coolant flow through the diesel?















Note that there is roughly 1 1/4" clearance between the block heater and engine pulley.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

With the weather being in the low 60F today this work in progress has move to what I believe is a functioning bock heater after a few minor mod's to my initial install. After reviewing the the information on Alldata for the Cruze diesel it was determined that the block outlet and thermostat was on the driver side and block inlet on the passenger side. With that determined it was decided to run the block heater outlet instead of into the oil cooler inlet but to that of the block driver side outlet to the cabin heater. This allows the block heater to flow into the head behind the thermostat thru the head and block down to the head inlet from the radiator. This now heats up very nicely all the way to the head and the block heater only gets warm indicating that the coolant is now flowing through the block heater.





















The first photo show's the block heater outlet coming up on the left side and going around the backside of the engine to the Y into the cabin heater supply hose into the head behind the thermostat. The second photo shows the Y connection into the cabin heater supply hose. The third photo shows the the block heater hose coming from the block heater outlet. 

Although this install is experimental it appears to yield a functional block heater operation. The initial test drive appeared to indicate normal engine warmup. From the block heater warm up through a ten mile drive no error codes were set. Further observations will continue during the next week 720 mile drive to and from work.

Keep in mind this is a work in progress and the next steps will include a hide away power socket probably behind the front license plate. The socket with be a marine grade covered plug mounted on the front bumper cover with the license plate mounting hinged from the top to fold down and hide the plug. It would be held down by a magnet so it could not be blown up by wind.

http://www.marinco.com/en/150bbi

[url]https://www.amazon.com/Marinco-On-Board-Charging-Inlets/dp/B01K9KDXOA

[/URL]https://www.hawkusa.com/search-quer...rohs_compliant=All&items_per_page=10&offset=0


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## DslGate (Jun 29, 2016)

@theonlypheonix. Excellent work on the recirc heater. Been following this since started . Where in Northern Il does it get -36 F. I too am in NO IL and have only seen -20????


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> With the weather being in the low 60F today this work in progress has move to what I believe is a functioning bock heater after a few minor mod's to my initial install. After reviewing the the information on Alldata for the Cruze diesel it was determined that the block outlet and thermostat was on the driver side and block inlet on the passenger side. With that determined it was decided to run the block heater outlet instead of into the oil cooler inlet but to that of the block driver side outlet to the cabin heater. This allows the block heater to flow into the head behind the thermostat thru the head and block down to the head inlet from the radiator. This now heats up very nicely all the way to the head and the block heater only gets warm indicating that the coolant is now flowing through the block heater.
> 
> View attachment 209346
> View attachment 209354
> ...


Very nice work!


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

DslGate said:


> @*theonlypheonix* . Excellent work on the recirc heater. Been following this since started . Where in Northern Il does it get -36 F. I too am in NO IL and have only seen -20????


Chicago boy, born and raised in northern IL except for a 3 year contract stint in the Ft Worth, Tx area.

The highest *temperature recorded* in *Illinois* was 117 °F (47 °C), *recorded* on July 14, 1954, at East St. Louis, while the lowest *temperature* was -37 °F (-39 °C), *recorded* on January 15, 2009, at Rochelle, IL otherwise known as the train "Hub City".


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## mkohan (Dec 19, 2015)

nice work, keep us posted. something I might try


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

The testing continues over the last week for about 700 miles now and so far all 
is well. Still no engine codes at this point.:th_dblthumb2:

Currently I use the heater to preheat the engine even though outside temps are 
in 50 to 60 F range in the mornings. The plan is to reduce the engine warm up 
cycle to improve fuel mileage during cold start, so I have the heater on a 20 min 
timer right before I plan on leaving the house.

Due to the tap point into the engines cooling system, it seems that with outside
temp in the 60F range the heater runs hotter then I would like to see. So my next 
plans are to add a small circulating pump to get better flow during warm mornings
for a more even heating of the engine. 

I like the Kim Hotflow heater which includes a small pump but it is a commercial
grade heater/pump priced at $480 which is a little steep for my budget on this
project. I also like it because it has a thermal cut set at about 100-120F where as the thermal siphon heaters are set generally about 180F. However the HotFlow is also a little on the large side. So I've ordered a small circulating pump from ebay, about $22 which will put this project at a total cost of about $100 so far. The pump and current heater are psychically smaller and are easier to fit into the Cruze engine compartment in a distributed fashion. 









https://www.hotstart.com/en/home/products/hotflow/

https://www.hotstart.com/assets/Data-Sheets/Data-sheet-CTM-DS-CTM-E.pdf


I also have plans in the works to add a filter to this branch to effectuate a coolant bypass filter as they have diesel trucks. That way when this loop is not heating the engine for a cold winter start it will otherwise be filtering the coolant full time. When I have the details together I'll post some more on this aspect of the project.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Interesting. I had no idea that there was such a thing as a coolant filter. I found this on the Wix site"

"Surprisingly, 53 percent of all catastrophic, premature diesel engine failures are directly related to improper cooling system maintenance techniques and habits. Providing the correct water, antifreeze, filters and supplemental coolant additives is critical to coolant system life."


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

diesel said:


> Interesting. I had no idea that there was such a thing as a coolant filter. I found this on the Wix site"
> 
> "Surprisingly, 53 percent of all catastrophic, premature diesel engine failures are directly related to improper cooling system maintenance techniques and habits. Providing the correct water, antifreeze, filters and supplemental coolant additives is critical to coolant system life."


every big truck/equipment has one


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Progress continues, the circulating pump and filter have been received, all that remains is to pick up the fittings and install. If the weather remains nice I may get this done this weekend.:grin: Below is a picture of the selected parts. Reminder... my goals are to achieve an effective sub zero block heater with coolant filtering for the diesel Cruze and also to function as engine pre-heater to reduce the warm up cycle thereby improving slightly on Avg MPG.

My initial prototype install will locate the pump near the passenger side strut tower, in the corner with the firewall for easy access and evaluation purposes. Once it proves out to meet my goals I will attempt to locate the pump down below near the block heater installation point. Also I'll eventually get around to installing the hide-away plug for the electrics behind the front license plate mounting.










Hey *KpaxFAQ*, do you want to chime in with different ideas on this install since you started this post and to get best ideas out there on the forum?


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Finally the pump is installed, the weather was just too nice not to get this done as we are running out of nice days for this winter. It was a real pain attempting to find the right fittings but I just grabbed what I could get at our small local hardware store so the connection is a little bit of a kludge.:2cents:Its worthy to note that the pump runs very quietly (30dB for those who are measuring).

Instead of mounting in the corner between passenger strut and firewall as originally planned, I hung it off the back passenger side of engine just to get it done. Eventually I would like to move down by the heater but for the experiment this will do. After bleeding air out of the lines, the coolant is circulating very nicely and being filter although with only a 50 micron screen and sediment bowl on the pump inlet. The heater (1000W) gets warm but not real hot the way it did with only relying on just the heaters natural siphon flow. Its currently 46F degrees outside and the heaters been running for about 1 1/2 hrs, after about two hours I will observe engine start up, temp rise, cabin heater warm up, any anomalies, etc. Obviously this is not the same as starting at 0F OR -37F but the experiment will yield some relative information. opblood:Over night I will put it on a timer and have it start heating an hour before I leave for work and once again note the observations. 












.

After two hours of heating the temp gauge was up by 3 marks, drop by one mark after starting engine and was up to full operating temp within 4 min after start up, the cabin heater was blowing warm air immediately after start up. Still no engine codes at this point.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Progress: I continue to use the heater to preheat the engine in the mornings. With preheat, when the engine is poked with the starter it starts as a gasser and just purrs like a warm comfortable kitten:yahoo:. Normally a cold diesel when started it kinda snarls like an old dog (like myself) poke from a warm comfortable sleep .

This morning I set the timer for only 1 hr instead of two hours as in the past and today's ambient temperature was a bit colder @ 30F. I finally got the answer to the old question of does any codes get set? For the first time the answer today was yes, a code can get set! Specifically the code: P011B - Engine coolant temperature/ intake air temperature correlation. The check engine light is easily extinguished with a code reader but a nuisance. The event is also recorded in the permanent log. Not sure why it set this morning and not the other mornings? It could be a colder morning with less time on the heater to evenly heat things (greater delta)? But clearly a code can set and the code which set make sense! One has to wonder what real good the OEM pan heater does in the real COLD (-35F and colder)  when it can not significantly heat the block to get the same effect? 

The next step is to figure out which of the air intake sensors has noticed the temp difference and get some heat also to fool it. I think there is one in the MAS which if it came up I was going to add a pad heater to the air box in an attempt to help correct the temp delta. opblood:


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> One has to wonder what real good the OEM pan heater does in the real COLD (-35F and colder)  when it can not significantly heat the block to get the same effect?


it heats the oil, not supposed to heat the block, works perfect as designed.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

I don't mean to mince meat with you Boraz... but can you define what you mean by "works perfect" as I think some of us have a finer definition then you maybe using? One notion I have for "works perfect" as relates to environment is that a vehicle starts/runs reliably 24/7 while in the open outdoors exposed to expected temperature ranges.

I understand that some places in BC gets to -60F to -70F during the winter but worst case I've only felt -37F here in northern IL and Wisc. That is darn cold for me and mechanical things left in the open outdoors esp with the wind blowing 40 -50 MPH, we are known to be the windy city. How quickly does your car cabin heater warm up when its -70F outside with just the OEM pan heater? Yes there is a small amount of oil sitting in the bottom of the oil pan but how quickly does it cool off if you can even get a diesel engine started at -70F? How long do you need to let the engine warm up before the car is even drive-able? What does the engine sound like while its warming up, is it really getting sufficient lubrication during those first few critical minutes? And I bet you guys don't use B20 in BC during the winter months where as here in IL that is about all you can get year round as the politicians do not believe in reliable diesel operation during the winter months, they are only hobby vehicles for the summer use.

We all have different expectations... mine are just a little higher to fall into the "perfect" category because I depend on reliability year round and do not count beans to make a living the way the folks at GM do, can you say CHEAP. I'm surprise they spent my money on the fuel heater in the filter housing! 

I expect to be able to jump into the car 24/7 after sitting all night in the open (not garaged) @ -37F with 50 MPH winds, have the engine start immediately sound like its summer, using B20 diesel, get some heat out of the cabin heater and drive off after a couple minutes of idling allowing for temperature stabilization and get excellent MPG! That's my definition of "perfect", does yours match up??mg:


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> I don't mean to mince meat with you Boraz... but can you define what you mean by "works perfect" as I think some of us have a finer definition then you maybe using? One notion I have for "works perfect" as relates to environment is that a vehicle starts/runs reliably 24/7 while in the open outdoors exposed to expected temperature ranges.
> 
> I understand that some places in BC gets to -60F to -70F during the winter but worst case I've only felt -37F here in northern IL and Wisc. That is darn cold for me and mechanical things left in the open outdoors esp with the wind blowing 40 -50 MPH, we are known to be the windy city. How quickly does your car cabin heater warm up when its -70F outside with just the OEM pan heater? Yes there is a small amount of oil sitting in the bottom of the oil pan but how quickly does it cool off if you can even get a diesel engine started at -70F? How long do you need to let the engine warm up before the car is even drive-able? What does the engine sound like while its warming up, is it really getting sufficient lubrication during those first few critical minutes? And I bet you guys don't use B20 in BC during the winter months where as here in IL that is about all you can get year round as the politicians do not believe in reliable diesel operation during the winter months, they are only hobby vehicles for the summer use.
> 
> ...


its an oil pan heater, designed to keep the oil warm, it does it perfectly....not meant for driver comfort.

my kenworth has oil pan heater, no coolant heater, plus glow plugs plus intake heater iirc...it starts and runs like it should

we do have 3 trucks with diesel fired coolant heaters cuz the trucks dont fit in our parking lot, so nowhere to plug them in

coolant heaters and oil pan heaters work like they are supposed to.

i live in BC at 3500' and work in alberta in the rockies anywhere from 4000' to 6300' yeah, its cold here in the winter, but the car has all the modern tricks in it so it will start.

my car spent all winter unplugged (oil pan heater cord was on recall for starting fires) so i didnt plug it in til i had time to take it in

car sat at work 12 hrs, or sat at the house for 11 hrs

-51f is the coldest the car started, started fine...its a 15 mile drive to town, 55mph...i could take hat and gloves off halfway.

ive never let the car idle more than 5 minutes, its not gonna get warm, so no point, brush the snow off, quick scrape while the electric heat/defrosters is on full

ive stated 11ty times on here already, but i'll do it again....wind chill doesnt work on cars....the temperature is the temperature, the car cant get colder than that.

your car isnt gonna be subjected to -70f, your car will start fine*


* i dont have garbage fuel up here, theres only one diesel available, and it works....but even if your fuel is garbage, warm engine isnt gonna help the gelled fuel in the tank so it wont start regardless of the coolant heater.


as i said ~2yrs ago when this whole thing was brought up by someone else wanting to do it, if it worked (internet said other newer cars would get sensor issues) and was <$500 i'd consider it, i use block heaters in all my gas vehicles once below 5f....so if by springtime youve got everything goin right, i might copy.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

No doubt I'm a rebel! :stoner: But after owning several different diesel vehicles and had plenty of fuel problems I found there are two things you need for reliably running a diesel in Northern IL, Heated engine when it gets real cold and plenty of fuel additive thanks to our pay to play politicians :idiot:
go green BIO20 :ban: . I heard all kinds of diesel start at -temperatures including the Cruze, none of them sound very good at all until they are warmed up a little, like shaking a can of marbles until the oil circulates. 

Last year end of November it got down to -5F and the Cruze was even lucky to start!! Ran fine up to that point and after the cold spell but had to shop for premium diesel with premium price at local Petro truck stop to get through the winter, although everything in the area is marked as BIO20. Here in Illinois diesel is like Forest Gump said "a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get"

I'm also taking into consideration the warm up time as a factor when the engine is burning more fuel then once its warmed up. On my F350 6.0L, I have it plugged in for a half hour when temps are @20F or Lower before start to cut down on wear of cold start and for shorter warm up time (better MPG). As I previously mention a diesel in the cold purrs like a kitten when cold started pre-warmed!

Boraz... so you autocross?? I use to in my younger years, go to Grattan MI with the Stealth TT. A real blast with all their turns and a nice straight away to let the turbos spool up... then hard on the brakes at then end for the 90 degree turn and all the twisty !:yahoo:.
http://www.grattanracewaypark.com/
http://www.grattanracewaypark.com/aboutus.html


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Update: today's morning temp was about 32F and the heater was turned on for about 1 hour. Scan gauge reported coolant temp of 106F before starting (74F rise in 1 hour). After my usual 2-3 min warm up I drove off. I first noticed on the Cruze avg economy graph that there wasn't the huge drop during the warm up period as would otherwise be typical. Also noted was that this time for some reason the error code was not set as it was yesterday.:go:What may have happen yesterday is that the computer may have gotten confused? I had started the car and it was running for about 2 min then shut it off because I went back in the house to get something I forgot. After restarting the engine is when I noticed the error code set. I assume the limits for checking the coolant and air temp correlation must be marginal which might be why the error code was set under this variance of start up conditions. It worthy to note that the OEM pan heater has a temp switch which does not allow it to operate unless the temp is 0F or below. Maybe this is just a simple cover for this situation for the OEM pan heater although it seems it could also be corrected in software without added hardware.

So far this experiment has been meeting my expectations, the real test will be when the ambient temps are in the -10F to -30F range which based on predictions will not be until Jan 2017 for my area. Otherwise I will continue to use the heat for morning pre-heats in an attempt to increase average MPG and to see what else can be learned from this experiment. After all... the claim for the alternator regen is an increased range of 7 miles per tank of diesel. Maybe the engine pre-heat will yield another 7 miles per tank.:jump:

Note: that if one is repeating my experiment, all parts (heater, hose, fittings and etc.) applied were automotive grade with the exception of the pump and filter which are designed for a solar hot water heating application. The circulating pump is rated for max temp of 212F and a max system pressure of 145 psi, flow is 2.3 gal/min with no head ($22). The next upgrade in pump from the same source is rated max temp of 230F, max system pressure of 145 PSI, flows 3.1 gal/min with no head ($70). Circulating pumps are not self priming and all air must be bled, and are intended to be used below the water line of the system. The pump I used was selected primarily for cost with some consideration to system application. So far the scan gauge reports a warmed up engine coolant operating temp of 195F which is within range of the selected pumps max spec of 212F.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

boraz said:


> ive stated 11ty times on here already, but i'll do it again....wind chill doesnt work on cars....the temperature is the temperature, the car cant get colder than that.


Once again I correct this notion! I contend that "wind" does make a difference on mechanical things! Basic lesson in thermal dynamic is why we have fans cooling all kinds things. Look around you, fans are being used to create movement of air for cooling every thing. Moving air (wind) cools things... simply stated. Put a car that is fully heated outdoors at say -10F no wind and it will cool off very slowly and over night there could be some heat remaining (still above -10F). Add a 50MPH wind to the above experiment and most of the heat will be gone in the first hour, depends on the dynamics of the amount of heat stored, the mass of the object and effective surface area to dissipate the heat.

"Wind chill" is an effect felt by bare skin and is a misplaced term with any like discussion here. Wind does cool off objects quicker and that can make the difference in starting or not starting a diesel when it is very cold.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> Once again I correct this notion! I contend that "wind" does make a difference on mechanical things! Basic lesson in thermal dynamic is why we have fans cooling all kinds things. Look around you, fans are being used to create movement of air for cooling every thing. Moving air (wind) cools things... simply stated. Put a car that is fully heated outdoors at say -10F no wind and it will cool off very slowly and over night there could be some heat remaining (still above -10F). Add a 50MPH wind to the above experiment and most of the heat will be gone in the first hour, depends on the dynamics of the amount of heat stored, the mass of the object and effective surface area to dissipate the heat.
> 
> "Wind chill" is an effect felt by bare skin and is a misplaced term with any like discussion here. Wind does cool off objects quicker and that can make the difference in starting or not starting a diesel when it is very cold.


I believe you are both correct! I never thought of the distinction between wind being used to dissipate heat faster and "wind chill effect", but they are definitely different things. I suppose it's semantics and terminology when being stated.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

boraz said:


> my kenworth has oil pan heater, no coolant heater, plus glow plugs plus intake heater iirc...it starts and runs like it should.


I like the idea of an intake heater, after some checking I see that some big diesels do use intake heaters and I think Fords old 7.3 use one also. This maybe my solution to the engine code set, although the code did not set the last two days after pre-warming the engine for an hour.

Maybe I can fit one of those small heating pad like heaters in the air box or even just squeeze in a 100 watt incandescent light bulb as they give off more heat then light.:stoner: This may give an initial snort of warm air to prevent the code from being set?

https://jet.com/product/detail/d5c5...15&gclid=CNnr4f28sNACFUVrMgode5UMzA&gclsrc=ds

https://www.amazon.com/Kats-24150-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8TQD6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kats-24150-150-Watt-4-x-5-Universal-Hot-Pad-Heater-/142142755324?hash=item21185e51fc:g:41UAAOSwOyJX-Wn8

http://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/Kat's-Silicone-Hot-Pad-Heater/0000000047517?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping%2Bsearch&utm_campaign=google%2Bproduct%20search&gslfah&gclid=CJu9k5u8sNACFUMaaQodX-MC8w

http://www.fivestarmanufacturing.com/kat_s


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

Personally I would just buy a cheapo obd2 bluetooth adapter and whenever that code is set just clear it and be done with it. I wouldn't try to fix it by stacking heaters on top of heaters to try to fool sensors just to find out that it messes with another sensor and then have to come up with some fix for that etc. Before long you're gonna have so much wattage in heaters here and there that the thing is gonna become a fire hazard.

Also, to get enough heat in the intake to make a difference, you will need something like a grid heater in a diesel truck. A light bulb or heating mat isn't gonna give off enough heat and the heat created may actually be so focused that you can risk melting stuff. You will need something like a grid heater, an element that will heat the air as it flows through.

But like I said, personally I would just spend 10 dollars on a Bluetooth obd2 adapter and whenever it decides to throw the code, just clear it.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

justin13703 said:


> Before long you're gonna have so much wattage in heaters here and there that the thing is gonna become a fire hazard.


Hey Justin you have a good point about adding excessive and unnecessary equipment ... but I'll let you in on a secret? As soon as one puts fuel in the tank and connects the battery the vehicle has become a potential fire hazard!:blowup:

I would add that this experiment is not for the inexperienced. :signs006:


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

theonlypheonix said:


> Once again I correct this notion! I contend that "wind" does make a difference on mechanical things! Basic lesson in thermal dynamic is why we have fans cooling all kinds things. Look around you, fans are being used to create movement of air for cooling every thing. Moving air (wind) cools things... simply stated. Put a car that is fully heated outdoors at say -10F no wind and it will cool off very slowly and over night there could be some heat remaining (still above -10F). Add a 50MPH wind to the above experiment and most of the heat will be gone in the first hour, depends on the dynamics of the amount of heat stored, the mass of the object and effective surface area to dissipate the heat.
> 
> "Wind chill" is an effect felt by bare skin and is a misplaced term with any like discussion here. Wind does cool off objects quicker and that can make the difference in starting or not starting a diesel when it is very cold.


notion?

its called science 

parked car doesnt create heat....theres nothing for the wind to chill.

wanna leave it running all night? now theres something for the wind to chill.

wind chill FEELS colder, it ISNT colder.

ambient temp is -40f, the coldest the car/anything will be is -40f, regardless of windspeed.

same with 20f in seattle FEELS colder than 20f in fargo, its the same temperature.


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

theonlypheonix said:


> justin13703 said:
> 
> 
> > Before long you're gonna have so much wattage in heaters here and there that the thing is gonna become a fire hazard.
> ...


I figured that my post would be responded to with sarcasm so I'll break it down a little more.

Sticking a 100 watt light bulb into a plastic box with a paper filter element is not a good idea and will not be effective for what you want it to do.

Those silicone pad heaters have to be mounted to something such as an oil pan or 55 gallon drum. They are meant to be attached to something and to use that thing as a heat sink to give off heat. They are not meant to be placed in open air and will not be effective in that way and most of them will actually overheat and burn up if they're not attached to something metal.

I like your original coolant heater idea and think that it will work very well. But at this point there is going to be a lot of complication added to it when you talk about putting light bulbs and heater pads into intake tubes to try to fool sensors etc. I am just giving my opinion that it might be a better option to just stick with what you have now as it seems to be pretty reliable, and just clear a code if it pops up.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

Its ok ... my comments are intended to add a little humor to the topic. The light bulb was really an attempt at cheap humor on the subject although second thoughts maybe there are people that really might attempt it? One reason why I always add my project is only an "experiment" and work in progress at this point. A matter of finding inexpensive ways to get more meaningfully start up heat for those of us that live in colder climates. There is relevant historical basis for adding heat to the cold intake air esp during start up. May help with reducing number of regen cycles and maybe even less pollution to the environment? I think both are honorable goals.

As an update once again, although today a warmer morning then past, the engine started and purred like a summer day. I did not even wait for glow plug light to go off and she popped right off after hitting the starter. Scan gauge reported before start coolant temp at 127F and outside ambient at 56F with light breeze (70F temp rise over ambient). Still observing the fuel consumption rate to determine if there is a measurable change during cold start cycle when using preheat.

We will be experiencing cool weather over the weekend so I hope to be able to gather more relevant data on the heaters performance in the cold (20F).


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Great work! I've been away from the forum for awhile and finally took a peek today! I'm so busy with work and family right now I doubt I'll be much of a contributor but am following to implement eventually.


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

update: the other day we only were at 30F in the morning I let the heater run for 2.5 hrs, the scan gauge report a 90F rise in coolant temp and a 20 F rise on the three air temp sensors. All though there was a coolant/air temp correlation reported the 
MIL did not set. The engine started nicely and once again purred like it was the middle of summer.

As I previously mentioned this is a work in progress, my next step is to add an intake heater of sorts. My initial thoughts is to add just enough heat to supply the engine with a gulp of warm to light up the cylinders on initial startup. This would be accomplished by mounting a thin aluminum plate to the inside of the air box top. The aluminum plate would have a Kats 50 or 100 watt pad heater w/thermostat mounted to it.

Or alternative remove the resonator from the air intake flow and add in place a grid type heater one finds on the larger diesel. THe only problem with this I would need to add too much electronics to effectively control it which would defeat one of my goals in applying the KISS principle.


https://www.amazon.com/Kats-24100-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8VL3O

https://www.amazon.com/Kats-24050-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8YPQ4

A more aggressive approach would be would be to implement one of the common diesel grid heaters with a bunch of electronics to effectively control it.

Glacier Diesel Power | Diesel Truck and Tractor Parts | Dodge Ram Cummins Kubota | - Product Detail

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/air_heat.php

Heating Technology - Air Intake

Intake Air Preheating – DBK

Cummins Intake Heater | eBay


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

A grid heater would be the most effective but my only concern is this. I know the ones for the Cummins engines get upwards of 5-600 degrees. Hopefully the plastic intake tubing can stand up to that.

Also having it where the intake resonator is puts it quite a distance from the engine. At such a low volume of air that is being pulled through during cranking, it may actually take a while for the heated air to get there. Also may lose a lot of the heat on the way.

As far as controlling it, it would be easy enough to mount a momentary switch in the car and have it trigger a solenoid for the heater. Hold the switch for 5 seconds or so and fire it up. Of course now you may be setting CELs for having an intake temp TOO high. 

So many questions.


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## DslGate (Jun 29, 2016)

theonlypheonix said:


> update: the other day we only were at 30F in the morning I let the heater run for 2.5 hrs, the scan gauge report a 90F rise in coolant temp and a 20 F rise on the three air temp sensors. All though there was a coolant/air temp correlation reported the
> MIL did not set. The engine started nicely and once again purred like it was the middle of summer.
> 
> As I previously mentioned this is a work in progress, my next step is to add an intake heater of sorts. My initial thoughts is to add just enough heat to supply the engine with a gulp of warm to light up the cylinders on initial startup. This would be accomplished by mounting a thin aluminum plate to the inside of the air box top. The aluminum plate would have a Kats 50 or 100 watt pad heater w/thermostat mounted to it.
> ...



You and I are wthin 15 miles of one another. My car has sat outside for 13 months, including last winter. Not once did I ever experience a difficulty in starting the CTD nor getting heat from the electric heater set on full. Add to that the seat heaters set on warmest and the cabin gets toasty within 5-10 minutes. I really dont get the need for these various heaters. When it's below 20, I'll use the remote to start her for about 3 minutes before I drive and the car runs just like it does any other time. Northern Illinos is not the North Pole nor the Yukon.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

That electric heater works extraordinarily well - heats the cabin up quicker than some gas cars. And definitely using the heated seats in conjunction, makes it real cozy, real quick.


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

I also agree that the electric heater works really well. So well that I honestly can't tell much of a difference between the electric heater and when the engine is up to temp. There are a lot of complaints about that electric heater but I don't really understand why. Mine works awesome. And I've also had no starting issues at below 0F


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## theonlypheonix (Oct 8, 2015)

DslGate said:


> You and I are wthin 15 miles of one another. My car has sat outside for 13 months, including last winter. Not once did I ever experience a difficulty in starting the CTD nor getting heat from the electric heater set on full. Add to that the seat heaters set on warmest and the cabin gets toasty within 5-10 minutes. I really dont get the need for these various heaters. When it's below 20, I'll use the remote to start her for about 3 minutes before I drive and the car runs just like it does any other time. Northern Illinos is not the North Pole nor the Yukon.


What a difference a few miles makes. My town holds the ILL state record for the coldest temperature a few years back at a real -37F. It sure felt like the North Pole to me! Just last year end of November at -5F, it seemed like the CTD was not going to start but it did eventually. Never again will I use Murphy diesel!!!! I can not rely of a hope, wish and prayer that it might or maybe start, for me it MUST start a what ever the ambient temp might happen to be here in northern ILL in the town with the State record.

For me its also a matter of fuel economy and minimizing engine wear. Have you ever watched your fuel rate from when it is first started, begins warming up and when it finally reaches normal operating temp? Take a look next time during the whole warm up cycle! The more heat I put in before starting the quicker it will warm up and be out of the cold start wear mode and the quicker it will be operating within the temperature for min fuel consumption. And this at 15 cents/KWH vs $2.49/gal diesel. 5 days a week I drive 60 miles each way to and from work at 60-70 MPH. The fuel economy graph does not hit peak until I'm half way to work in the winter as compared to with summer when it hits in the first 5-10miles.

Nothing like the sound of a cozy warm start of a diesel on a very cold winters day, it is a difference one can hear !!!! :eusa_clap: And your engine will even applaud you for that little extra care you gave it for keeping it warm during the cold nights. Each to his own, just different standards.k:


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Exactly, none of this is necessary but it would be pretty **** nice to have. A luxury. My electric heater doesn't do much IMO. When up to temp my heat feels like it could melt plastic, the electric heater on a 15F morning is just enough to make a tiny square of the windshield after 10 minutes of idling....lol and if I turn the fan up too much it takes that much longer for the coolant to heat up especially with downgrades when it visibly looses half the coolant meter on a very cold day coasting.... 

Also, I'd guess the mileage boost would be significant. Especially if you're not hopping right on the highway and have to putter around town.


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

KpaxFAQ said:


> Exactly, none of this is necessary but it would be pretty **** nice to have. A luxury. My electric heater doesn't do much IMO. When up to temp my heat feels like it could melt plastic, the electric heater on a 15F morning is just enough to make a tiny square of the windshield after 10 minutes of idling....lol and if I turn the fan up too much it takes that much longer for the coolant to heat up especially with downgrades when it visibly looses half the coolant meter on a very cold day coasting....
> 
> Also, I'd guess the mileage boost would be significant. Especially if you're not hopping right on the highway and have to putter around town.


Sounds to me like something isn't right with your car. At 15 degrees my electric heater is blowing probably at least 80 degrees at the vents and you definitely shouldn't be losing engine heat by coasting down a hill.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

justin13703 said:


> Sounds to me like something isn't right with your car. At 15 degrees my electric heater is blowing probably at least 80 degrees at the vents and you definitely shouldn't be losing engine heat by coasting down a hill.


this.

i go down a 7 mile 10% hill, coolant temp stays same.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Interesting, the behavior has been noticed by more than just me. Been like that since day one. Heat on full blast coasting down a long hill at 15F the coolant temp will visibly start dropping until you start accelerating again. Maybe the thermostat sticking open a little? 

I'll have to measure the temp at the vents with my thermapen sometime. I can feel warmth but it never feels that warm to me, just not freezing.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

my miata going down the same hill would lose appreciable heat

gotta think the cruze shutters solve this

im talking -4f temps...


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

when i was foreman i had a duramax, it would barely have enough heat cuz i didnt wait long enough and then 4 miles later had a 3 mile 7% downhill

lost all heat there every am


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## justin13703 (May 2, 2016)

KpaxFAQ said:


> Interesting, the behavior has been noticed by more than just me. Been like that since day one. Heat on full blast coasting down a long hill at 15F the coolant temp will visibly start dropping until you start accelerating again. Maybe the thermostat sticking open a little?
> 
> I'll have to measure the temp at the vents with my thermapen sometime. I can feel warmth but it never feels that warm to me, just not freezing.


Keep in mind that for the air to feel "warm" to you it will have to be close to body temperature. So when the temp is in the teens or lower, chances are the air out of the vents may only feel like room temperature at that point. What it does do, is increase the cabin temp while the coolant gets up to temp, so once you reach operating temperature, the cabin is either already warm or only a few minutes away from being there. Normally all the time before operating temp is reached is wasted time as far as heating. It's not going to feel "hot" but it will warm up the car. 

They couldn't slam a huge 5000 watt heating element in there and suck all the voltage from the car to blow smoking hot air. I think what they have is a good compromise. At least with my car, it blows plenty of heat but you have no idea it's running at all. No voltage drops, relays clicking or even that electric heating element smell. It is completely unnoticeable other than the heat output.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

justin13703 said:


> Keep in mind that for the air to feel "warm" to you it will have to be close to body temperature. So when the temp is in the teens or lower, chances are the air out of the vents may only feel like room temperature at that point. What it does do, is increase the cabin temp while the coolant gets up to temp, so once you reach operating temperature, the cabin is either already warm or only a few minutes away from being there. Normally all the time before operating temp is reached is wasted time as far as heating. It's not going to feel "hot" but it will warm up the car.
> 
> They couldn't slam a huge 5000 watt heating element in there and suck all the voltage from the car to blow smoking hot air. I think what they have is a good compromise. At least with my car, it blows plenty of heat but you have no idea it's running at all. No voltage drops, relays clicking or even that electric heating element smell. It is completely unnoticeable other than the heat output.


I get how it works and it was never my point or focus. It doesn't do much for me. To each their own.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

boraz said:


> my miata going down the same hill would lose appreciable heat
> 
> gotta think the cruze shutters solve this
> 
> im talking -4f temps...



If it's 15F or lower and my fan is on 4 or higher I visibly see the coolant temp go down some coasting on an off-ramp. I don't loose any noticeable heat on any grade but I see the dummy coolant meter loose a few pegs and go right back up to normal when I get back on the accelerator. 

I know this has been discussed before if I'm remembering correctly but maybe I'm going senile!


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