# '12 Cruze LT Valve Cover ?



## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Hi

So for the 3rd time, my check engine light is on with the code P0171. Both times it's been the valve cover. It was dark and I was too tired from work to open the hood and listen (last time I heard what I describe as a whistling noise). But she was idling rough, she didn't have any issues accelerating but I also didn't drive her far tonight to even really see. She has about 93,400 miles. I'm so angry that this happened again. If it is the valve cover, I'm sure it won't be covered since my warranty is out and I'm sure it's a very expensive fix at the dealer. Is this a hard part to replace? It looks like it'd be easy but I'm not sure what all is under the cover. I also just replaced the purge valve...did that myself...so I don't think it'd be that. 

First time the valve cover went was around 30,000 miles. I had only had her for a few months (and no I didn't put that many miles on her, I bought her used) and the second was around 65,000 miles.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Over time, we have learned that the burst valve (in the cam cover) failing is often the result of a broken and now missing vacuum check valve that is part of the intake manifold.
With the valve out of place the burst diaphragm endures full manifold vacuum at all times......this results in repeated failures.

There are several photos on this site to show you what to look for when diagnosing.
The cover is fairly inexpensive, the manifold, not so much.

Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> Over time, we have learned that the burst valve (in the cam cover) failing is often the result of a broken and now missing vacuum check valve that is part of the intake manifold.
> With the valve out of place the burst diaphragm endures full manifold vacuum at all times......this results in repeated failures.
> 
> There are several photos on this site to show you what to look for when diagnosing.
> ...


Thank you. I'm not sure if I found the pictures of what to look for but I saw a post about pulling my dipstick. I did and there was a pop as I pulled it and the hissing went away. Could it still be the valve cover or does that indicate something else?


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

The sound you hear still is the cover.....you just reduced the crankcase vacuum by providing a air path (dipstick hole).

The photos you are looking for involve removing a hose to the backside center top of engine to look down into the manifold. A good manifold will have a reddish/whiteish bit visible....otherwise, you see nothing but a black hole......in that case the manifold requires replacement in conjunction with the cover.

For whatever it is worth, the newest design manifold incorporates a positive lock for check valve retention.
I am speaking about the part provided through a dealer parts department......the items sold on the internet as aftermarket may be old, non updated stock so beware.

Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> The sound you hear still is the cover.....you just reduced the crankcase vacuum by providing a air path (dipstick hole).
> 
> The photos you are looking for involve removing a hose to the backside center top of engine to look down into the manifold. A good manifold will have a reddish/whiteish bit visible....otherwise, you see nothing but a black hole......in that case the manifold requires replacement in conjunction with the cover.
> 
> ...


Okay. Thank you. I have a friend who works on cars himself for fun that is going to come take a look at it tonight. I will still look for those pictures so I can show him.

I find it strange that roughly every 30,000 miles that cover is going. The first time was about 29,000, the second was at 60,321, and now the 3rd at 93, 974. :angry: Or is this from the missing vacuum check valve?


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

PenguinEMT said:


> Okay. Thank you. I have a friend who works on cars himself for fun that is going to come take a look at it tonight. I will still look for those pictures so I can show him.
> 
> I find it strange that roughly every 30,000 miles that cover is going. The first time was about 29,000, the second was at 60,321, and now the 3rd at 93, 974. :angry: Or is this from the missing vacuum check valve?


You are giving a compelling case of a failed check valve......if it is gone, it likely has been so since your first failure of the cam cover.....you've inadvertently been repairing the result rather than the cause.
Sadly, shame on the dealer for not reading his/her service bulletins, which direct the repair person to check for the valve we are discussing any time a burst valve (cam cover) experiences a failure.

Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> You are giving a compelling case of a failed check valve......if it is gone, it likely has been so since your first failure of the cam cover.....you've inadvertently been repairing the result rather than the cause.
> Sadly, shame on the dealer for not reading his/her service bulletins, which direct the repair person to check for the valve we are discussing any time a burst valve (cam cover) experiences a failure.
> 
> Rob



Awesome (Total sarcasm). I found the pictures so I will either check it or have my friend check it. The dealer is giving me half off of the diagnostic price so Thursday they will be taking a look as well and I will definately be mentioning this and/or asking GM why it was never checked before. I said to my friend that it would make sense for them to check it while they were replacing the cover. I will be fighting for GM or the dealership to cover the cost of repairs because this should never had happened a 3rd time if they had checked everything out properly. I KNEW last night that something else had to be causing this. I will not leave the dealership without GM or them agreeing to cover ALL costs. I am so angry right now. I think I get more angry with every second that passes. 

Thank you so much.

Also, are you sure that a bulletin was sent out to the dealer to check this part? Because if so, I am going to have a field day on Thursday. I already have the number for the PA State Attorney General's office for consumer affairs programmed into my phone to call. I called the Lemon Law office about the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act and they said that the State Attorney General's office would be able to help better because of how many miles I have on my car.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

PenguinEMT said:


> Awesome (Total sarcasm). I found the pictures so I will either check it or have my friend check it. The dealer is giving me half off of the diagnostic price so Thursday they will be taking a look as well and I will definately be mentioning this and/or asking GM why it was never checked before. I said to my friend that it would make sense for them to check it while they were replacing the cover. I will be fighting for GM or the dealership to cover the cost of repairs because this should never had happened a 3rd time if they had checked everything out properly. I KNEW last night that something else had to be causing this. I will not leave the dealership without GM or them agreeing to cover ALL costs. I am so angry right now. I think I get more angry with every second that passes.
> 
> Thank you so much.
> 
> Also, are you sure that a bulletin was sent out to the dealer to check this part? Because if so, I am going to have a field day on Thursday. I already have the number for the PA State Attorney General's office for consumer affairs programmed into my phone to call. I called the Lemon Law office about the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act and they said that the State Attorney General's office would be able to help better because of how many miles I have on my car.




Not a bulletin per se.....it is on the GM global connect site as a 'If this happens, check for that before releasing the car'.
The tech. (those that give a snit) will look this stuff up. Those that don't, don't.
Remember, you are dealing with a dealer, a independent franchise that is not owned by GM.
GM has done you no wrong......the dealer service department, by not following protocol and not using the information provided to each tech. is who you should focus your unhappiness at.

If you try to bring any legal action towards GM (the corporation) you will lose.......That, and the moment GM becomes aware of lawyer involvement of any sort, they forward everything to their legal department (seven floors of nothing but retained lawyers).

I wouldn't recommend rattling that cage until all normal channels have been exhausted.

(Past GM Corporate employee speaking)

Keep in touch.
Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> Not a bulletin per se.....it is on the GM global connect site as a 'If this happens, check for that before releasing the car'.
> The tech. (those that give a snit) will look this stuff up. Those that don't, don't.
> Remember, you are dealing with a dealer, a independent franchise that is not owned by GM.
> GM has done you no wrong......the dealer service department, by not following protocol and not using the information provided to each tech. is who you should focus your unhappiness at.
> ...


Okay, Thank you. Oh, you can bet everything that I am NOT leaving that dealership without it fixed or the agreement that it will be fixed without me having to pay a dime except for the diagnostic fee (Which I will pay because the service manager will be giving me half off the normal diagnostic fee). 

Once this is fixed, I am trading my car in. I am done. I don't have the energy or anxiety capacity to deal with this again or any other issues because of this turbo engine. I'm done with Chevy, I just can't do this again. I can't.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

PenguinEMT said:


> Okay, Thank you. Oh, you can bet everything that I am NOT leaving that dealership without it fixed or the agreement that it will be fixed without me having to pay a dime except for the diagnostic fee (Which I will pay because the service manager will be giving me half off the normal diagnostic fee).
> 
> Once this is fixed, I am trading my car in. I am done. I don't have the energy or anxiety capacity to deal with this again or any other issues because of this turbo engine. I'm done with Chevy, I just can't do this again. I can't.


I fail to see the logic in trading in a correctly repaired car with parts that are updated, but that is just me.

Chill a bit....you might have a change of heart.
Otherwise, trade it in in its current configuration and reduce the brain damage.

Just my thoughts.

Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> I fail to see the logic in trading in a correctly repaired car with parts that are updated, but that is just me.
> 
> Chill a bit....you might have a change of heart.
> Otherwise, trade it in in its current configuration and reduce the brain damage.
> ...



I thought it was correctly repaired twice before. And apparently not. This car has been nothing but issues. Issues with my brakes, issues with the purge valve, issues with the water outlet, issues with this valve cover. At times I feel like I'm leaking gas somewhere because I feel like it eats it.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

PenguinEMT said:


> I thought it was correctly repaired twice before. And apparently not. This car has been nothing but issues. Issues with my brakes, issues with the purge valve, issues with the water outlet, issues with this valve cover. At times I feel like I'm leaking gas somewhere because I feel like it eats it.


Try to see this from my perspective...it might better define my response.

I see a first time poster with multiple failures of the same component.....the car has over 100,000 miles.
Further discussion leads me to believe the root cause of failure has not been properly addressed.

After providing suggestions that may possibly result in a long lasting repair, you indicate the car has been nothing but trouble.
I'm afraid that a car with this mileage, regardless of who manufactured it, might need brakes, might develop a coolant leak, and might need a emission part replaced.

I look at these as a well designed car that had growing pains (as every manufacturer does in the first two years) that came with a solid warranty to cover those growing pains if they arose.

But I consider it a disservice to yourself, the vehicle, and the manufacturer when the car gets beat up for being....a machine.....that in this case may have been incorrectly serviced.
Trading in the car in a 'I'll show you!' frame of mind just ends up being a way to screw yourself out of a paid for car.

The secondary items you have had fail, fall into the machine being a machine category....and you are the lucky one that owns the machine.
Once you get it squared away, the next owner will consider it the best car they ever owned....you fixed it up before they bought it.

In my old age, I tend to get rid of my driver cars at about the three year point......this makes every car I own the best I ever had because I don't have them long enough to act up, heh heh.

So, if machines being machines makes you crazy, try my tack.....keeps the stress level down.
BTW...I use three years because the depreciation stops (almost) from the end of the third year till the end of the fifth.....something to consider.

Regards!
Rob


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Robby said:


> The sound you hear still is the cover.....you just reduced the crankcase vacuum by providing a air path (dipstick hole).
> 
> The photos you are looking for involve removing a hose to the backside center top of engine to look down into the manifold. A good manifold will have a reddish/whiteish bit visible....otherwise, you see nothing but a black hole......in that case the manifold requires replacement in conjunction with the cover.
> 
> ...


Robby-

Good points in this post. Do you happen to know which intake manifold part number is the latest that contains the check valve retainer? I know it appears that the lastest part numbers appear to not be a "fully loaded" intake. It appears they finally removed the injectors and throttle body from the large intake assembly. 

I know there's a member here who has developed a fix, yet there's several of us that appreciate evaluating factory parts if they have fixed the deficiencies. Sounds like maybe they have. 

Now the problem is trusting the online parts departments to give you the latest parts if you don't have a part number. You've been around the forum and these 1.4's for a long time. Is this a foolproof design in your opinion? Issue addressed?

I have a high idle, but not sure if it's due to cold weather or a potential intake that has not yet blown the valve cover. Something to look into this spring as part of maintenance. 

6 years old, 71,000 miles, and other than oil cooler lines car has been great.


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> PenguinEMT said:
> 
> 
> > I thought it was correctly repaired twice before. And apparently not. This car has been nothing but issues. Issues with my brakes, issues with the purge valve, issues with the water outlet, issues with this valve cover. At times I feel like I'm leaking gas somewhere because I feel like it eats it.
> ...


Thanks Rob. This is just my frustration and anxiety talking. I love my baby, even though she can be a real brat at times. I've not even had her 3 years yet, May will be 3 years. I still owe $10,000 on her and my credit is now bad thanks to an ex. So I wouldn't be able to trade her in even if I really wanted to. 

And when I say issues with the brakes...the rotors were digging into my brakes about 4 months after getting them put on. But I'm just frustrated. Sorry.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

carbon02 said:


> Robby-
> 
> Good points in this post. Do you happen to know which intake manifold part number is the latest that contains the check valve retainer? I know it appears that the lastest part numbers appear to not be a "fully loaded" intake. It appears they finally removed the injectors and throttle body from the large intake assembly.
> 
> ...


If a replacement manifold is (finally) being marketed as manifold only, you can be well assured it is the new design. All the new version manifolds I've seen only came as full assembly's including the throttle body and injectors.
I consider the newest valve retention disc method probably more robust than necessary......the dealer I hang out at has never seen a failure of the newest version......these started showing up a little longer than a year ago....maybe a year and a half.

Any of the techs. I speak with indicate the 1.4 found in your Cruze, all version Trax, and the base engine in the little Buick suv (can't remember name, heh heh) has become a 'bread and butter engine'..... that means they don't hardly have any problems to speak of.
I'll try and get you the most current part number tomorrow.

High idle? 
I don't remember any members having that concern......post your findings please.

Rob


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

A few week ago I remember doing an internet search for a newer member who couldn't find the manifold in stock online, and he was told that there was just the manifold now available. At that time I confirmed his research, with the "public tools" I have. 

Now doing another search based on a GM dealers online public tool shows the intake to be 55581014 but that's the entire assembly.

I noticed I have a cold start idle of 1500 rpm which I've always had. After 90 seconds it goes down to around 1000 rpm. It's kind of slow to get from 1000 rpm down to 675-700, but it does seem to finally get there. 

I remember seeing youtube video'showing that the valve cover leaking can cause high idle, which I think is due to unmetered air. 

I also remember seeing in the service manual that the car can command high idle with higher electrical loads, which is what I think I'm seeing. It's cold, and even with a new battery I'm running a lot of loads with the aftermarket heated seats and winter electrical loads. 

I'm no longer willing to freeze on the way into work for mpg. At least not the same as when fuel was $4.10/gallon..


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

carbon02 said:


> A few week ago I remember doing an internet search for a newer member who couldn't find the manifold in stock online, and he was told that there was just the manifold now available. At that time I confirmed his research, with the "public tools" I have.
> 
> Now doing another search based on a GM dealers online public tool shows the intake to be 55581014 but that's the entire assembly.
> 
> ...


Follow up:

Information is good....the original manifold that came with injectors and throttle body (55581014) is now marketed manifold only (25200449)......all with the updated pcv retention.....obviously cheaper.

I'm seeing the updated part on Dorman OE solutions (cheaper yet).....they make it a point to advertise the pcv retention update......around $165.00

Rob


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks Rob for the confirmation. I too noticed that Dorman has a solution, but I haven't seen any detailed info on the area of failure that they improved upon. 

Other than the Dorman website, very little information in the "Google sphere" about it.

Glad to see they make it a point to advertise the PCV retention update. I've only bought a few Dorman parts, but what I've purchased have addressed the failures of the original parts, which is what they are known for.


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Rob,

In your opinion, should I bring up the vacuum check valve right away or wait and see what happens? 

I am no longer under warranty and I highly doubt if the valve is broken or now missing that GM or the dealer will cover the cost and I really don't have money at the moment to put into it. I am going to fight for them to cover the cost of the valve cover because this isn't just a wear and tear type of issue apparently. 

Thanks.


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## R3DSh1ft_Cruze (Jul 25, 2016)

my 2012 LT has done this twice as well... first occurrence was around 70k and the last was around 120k... both times it was serviced at a dealer. I am hoping the last repair was with the updated parts as they not only changed the 'top' of the engine, but the entire intake manifold as well. It was an expensive repair at that.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

PenguinEMT said:


> Rob,
> 
> In your opinion, should I bring up the vacuum check valve right away or wait and see what happens?
> 
> ...


You indicated a mechanical friend would be involved with the repair if memory serves.
Since you have located the photos and know how to check the valve, at least get that figured out.
Yes, you can replace just the cover, knowing now that it will have a shortened lifespan if it is being operated with a failed/missing valve.

If the valve has disappeared (failed) I'd be asking the Service Director questions along the lines of why was this not inspected after three component failures.
Especially since the division has made every effort to alert the repairman to replace the manifold.......clearly trying to help the mechanic to correctly provide a lasting repair.

Sometimes, if the dealer contacts the division on your behalf, admitting they may have misdiagnosed in the past, the division will assist.....just a thought.

Rob


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## mechguy78 (Jun 6, 2016)

This would explain why when I had my manifold replaced last month that it looked like the throttle body and other attached components looked to be the old ones. Only the manifold itself looked new post service.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

mechguy78 said:


> This would explain why when I had my manifold replaced last month that it looked like the throttle body and other attached components looked to be the old ones. Only the manifold itself looked new post service.



Heh heh, yeah.....my dealer contact said the techs. were whining about the new part because now they had to transfer the sub assemblies from the old to the new.

Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> You indicated a mechanical friend would be involved with the repair if memory serves.
> Since you have located the photos and know how to check the valve, at least get that figured out.
> Yes, you can replace just the cover, knowing now that it will have a shortened lifespan if it is being operated with a failed/missing valve.
> 
> ...



He was just confirming my suspicion. Now, if the dealership or GM refuses to cover the cost, I will be coming home, buying the valve cover and doing it myself...with his assistance. Then I will take it to a mechanic who is NOT a dealership and have them replace the intake manifold when I have money. Yes, I know that I should do both at the same time or I risk ruining another valve cover but I just don't have the money right now. 

I will definitely ask that. I am trying so hard to not stress about it at the moment. I just want tomorrow morning to be over with already. 

Thank you very much Rob and I will definitely let you know what happens tomorrow.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

PenguinEMT said:


> He was just confirming my suspicion. Now, if the dealership or GM refuses to cover the cost, I will be coming home, buying the valve cover and doing it myself...with his assistance. Then I will take it to a mechanic who is NOT a dealership and have them replace the intake manifold when I have money. Yes, I know that I should do both at the same time or I risk ruining another valve cover but I just don't have the money right now.
> 
> I will definitely ask that. I am trying so hard to not stress about it at the moment. I just want tomorrow morning to be over with already.
> 
> Thank you very much Rob and I will definitely let you know what happens tomorrow.



Good luck!

Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> PenguinEMT said:
> 
> 
> > He was just confirming my suspicion. Now, if the dealership or GM refuses to cover the cost, I will be coming home, buying the valve cover and doing it myself...with his assistance. Then I will take it to a mechanic who is NOT a dealership and have them replace the intake manifold when I have money. Yes, I know that I should do both at the same time or I risk ruining another valve cover but I just don't have the money right now.
> ...



So now it's throwing 2 other codes and showing P0171 is in the history. It's throwing P0106 and P015B. I'm so over this car. It wasn't throwing those codes the other day.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Those are likely resultant codes.....a result of the first code......disregard them till the P0171 is resolved.

Rob


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

Robby said:


> Those are likely resultant codes.....a result of the first code......disregard them till the P0171 is resolved.
> 
> Rob


I thought so. I told the service tech that I know for sure that my valve cover has gone and he didn't believe me. Sigh, I really don't have the patience for being looked down on because I'm a female.


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

PenguinEMT said:


> Robby said:
> 
> 
> > Those are likely resultant codes.....a result of the first code......disregard them till the P0171 is resolved.
> ...



So after about 40 minutes on the phone with GM with the service manager, they agreed to pay $300 so I'm responsible for $350. Which isn't too bad. I'm also getting a rental with no cost to me. And the service tech was surprised that I knew it was the cover and the check valve in the intake manifold. I said "well I do my research, I know my car". He said "well for a woman, that's impressive" ? 

But thank you so much Rob!!


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## carbon02 (Feb 25, 2011)

PenguinEMT said:


> So after about 40 minutes on the phone with GM with the service manager, they agreed to pay $300 so I'm responsible for $350. Which isn't too bad. I'm also getting a rental with no cost to me. And the service tech was surprised that I knew it was the cover and the check valve in the intake manifold. I said "well I do my research, I know my car". He said "well for a woman, that's impressive" ?
> 
> But thank you so much Rob!!


It's sad the way some dealerships treat people, as if they aren't interested in knowing anything. Use this as an opportunity to build a relationship with them. I've even found how you present yourself forms a lot of impressions. Going in with your Saturday jeans with holes in them that are a little dirty get's one impression. Going in with office buisness attire gets another impression. 

This isn't just auto shops, it's a lot of businesses. Making yourself look and act like someone they would hang out with gets better service. 

I'm not suggesting you have to go buy some axle grease, and grease up your hands before driving the car in, but it's unfortunate that assumptions of people's knowledge are made.

The more I've learned about how mechanics get paid on flat rate has made me realize just how valuable a good independent mechanic is. The whole system of only paying a mechanic what the "book" says a procedure takes, vs. actually considering how much time it takes the mechanic to learn and do the job, can breed some bad practices with mechanics. 

The customer is paying $130/ hour for labor, yet the tech get's $15 to $20 and is told, you get paid for a half an hour, no matter how long this takes? Doesn't seem like the entire mechanic business model breeds quality. This is the same "business model" at both the dealership and independent shops. At least the indpendent shops have their reputation to protect or seems to care more about it. Often the owner of the independent shop is the guy that's turning wrenches. He's making the $100+/hour labor rate to their business, and have an interest in growing it. 

I used to think independents didn't have access to all the tools and knowledge of the dealership. Well that's changed. Good independents have the tools, they aren't cheaper, but are they more honest, and not trying to "pad the labor time, and throw parts at it"?

From what I've gathered you have to put a lot of time in to get the senior technician roles and pay. Many senior technicians that are good break away and start their own shops. 

Participation in forums is an investment in your car. I like researching things, but I don't have the wrenching experience or confidence to jump right in like a lot of people on this forum. 

Thanks goes out to people that participated in this thread and the forum for their expertise and willingness to share.

We have several people on this forum that "hang out" with a lot of direct dealership knowledge. This gives confidence to some of us to consider doing some of these repairs yourself.

My car would have blown up after year 3, had BlueAngel and Obermd not realized that the gasket on the radiator cap was the root cause of the leaking. That's just one example.. 

Anyway--

Sorry for the long message

Good Luck and stick around.


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## PenguinEMT (Feb 20, 2018)

carbon02 said:


> It's sad the way some dealerships treat people, as if they aren't interested in knowing anything. Use this as an opportunity to build a relationship with them. I've even found how you present yourself forms a lot of impressions. Going in with your Saturday jeans with holes in them that are a little dirty get's one impression. Going in with office buisness attire gets another impression.
> 
> This isn't just auto shops, it's a lot of businesses. Making yourself look and act like someone they would hang out with gets better service.
> 
> ...



That's okay. This is really my first car that I had to get any work done on it myself. My first car was totalled after about 7 months because of a drunk driver. My second car was really old and the transmission went just a year and half after I got it. My third car met it's demise from a flash flood when I was at my ex's after only a year. This is the first car I've had longer than a year and half. But I am quickly realizing that being a woman, I have to be just as knowledgeable about my car than the mechanic. 

Oh I will be sticking around. I have got more help here in 48 hours than I think I have in 3 years of owning my car. LOL. Thank you.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

This has been a interesting thread to be involved in.

I look forward to your follow up once the car is back in your possession.......might run better than it has in quite some time.

My long term hope is that the dealer mechanics may more willing to utilize the programs that the corporation provides to effect correctly performed repairs.
Your situation, and calling them out on it, could make service management lean on the mechanics to utilize the info more often.
Dealer service departments tend to open their eyes a bit when they are exposing themselves financially due to situations that are caused like we are discussing.

Telling us your gender makes the event, specifically providing repair guidance,....well, it brings a smile to me. I wish I could have seen the squirming going on.
Years ago I had a shop and I spent a lot of time educating the ladies (that wanted to know) on what made the machines tick and how not to be hoodwinked into spending money on services and repairs that did not require immediate attention.
I would tell them to always ask two questions.

1. Why? (did this happen and how can it be prevented).
2. What? (requires attention TODAY from the standpoint of safety and reliability).

This gives you the opportunity to get other opinions (like you did) and also allows you to shop around for recommended services.

Although women think they get taken advantage of, they really don't IF they ask those questions.

Men, because we are 'manly,heh heh', generally will not admit they have no clue what the service writer is talking about. As a result, it is far easier to sell a male customer the whole shootin match. A man will listen to the spiel, nod his head as though he knows everything about the discussion, pause, and then say 'OK.....if it needs it, it needs it, how soon will it be ready'.

No, I did not take advantage of this but I've sure seen it happen a bunch.

Oh well, getting off track.

Good to hear things might be going your way.....finally.

Rob


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