# Extreme cold



## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

So a lot of places have been seeing extremely cold temps lately. Today is - 14 here and my car won't even start. It sucks but my work is probably gonna get closed anyways. 

I have also been having trouble getting my remote start to work consistently. If it's below ten degrees, sometime it will start, then shut off, then I try to start it again with the remote, and the lights flash, but it doesn't even try. Anyone else experience this? 

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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

In DesPlaines here......same morning temps as N. Chicago,

Does the starter turn the engine over normally but no start or is the starter unable to crank the engine?

Rob


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## Sperry (Aug 3, 2013)

I don't use the remote very often but I find it starts easier when I wait for the warning lights to finish their song, I guess it gives the glowplug time warm up


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## CosmosGoat (Sep 23, 2013)

On my way in this morning the cars showed -14 as well. My garage is heated sot he car started fine but the temp gauge never got to its "normal" position. It did best on the highway but woudl drop when I was sitting at stop lights, I assume due to lack of load. I added Diesel Kleen to the tank on the last fillup so fingered crossed for a quick start at 5 PM tonight after sitting outside all day.


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

Glad I replaced my battery this fall, was -21F this morning and my cruze fired right up.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

CosmosGoat said:


> On my way in this morning the cars showed -14 as well. My garage is heated sot he car started fine but the temp gauge never got to its "normal" position. It did best on the highway but woudl drop when I was sitting at stop lights, I assume due to lack of load. I added Diesel Kleen to the tank on the last fillup so fingered crossed for a quick start at 5 PM tonight after sitting outside all day.


This is the tough part of first time diesel ownership.....getting the fuel right because below 0 it 'gels' in the fuel filter.
The only response is to get it hauled into an area above 0 and let it sit for a half hour....they come right back to life.

I can see where this can happen easily on the Cruze due to its ability to stretch a tank of fuel for as high as 800 miles.
Lotta folks find that could be a month of driving and, depending where you live, that could mean a 50 to 70 degree temperature change.
That would make it easy to have a half tank of fuel that is not appropriate for the temperature.

Heavy trucks go through a tank (or two) a day depending on usage, so they don't run into this unless they are travelling from a warm state to a cold state and don't refuel at arrival.

Rob


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Starter is turning over, just wont start the car. I let it try for about ten seconds before stopping it. I just filled up yesterday in Wisconsin, not sure what blend it was, but I would assume 50/50, which is only good to -16, and it was about -20 last night. I did also put fuel treatment in there too which is supposed to help...but no go. I used Power Service Diesel treatment.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

spacedout said:


> Glad I replaced my battery this fall, was -21F this morning and my cruze fired right up.


We are referring to Diesel cruze though. Battery is a non-issue. It's massive and brand new.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Starter is turning over, just wont start the car. I let it try for about ten seconds before stopping it. I just filled up yesterday in Wisconsin, not sure what blend it was, but I would assume 50/50, which is only good to -16, and it was about -20 last night. I did also put fuel treatment in there too which is supposed to help...but no go. I used Power Service Diesel treatment.


Yep, 
Your description is classic fuel gelling.......nothing is getting through the filter and to the injectors.
Situation may have been caused by the fuel supplier up in Wisconson yesterday.......you don't know if the fuel down in the tanks was cut thin enouph for this mornings temps......well actually, you do know, it won't fire up.

Gonna need some warm air under the hood or another 15 degrees towards the plus side before it'll make any noise.

Rob


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Considering todays high is only -10, and the low is -16 again, I probably wont get a start till late tomorrow...Wish I had a garage...lol


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

See if you can find Power Service 911 additive (red bottle). It's supposed to help de-gel diesel. 

I've been using their white bottle, which is an anti-gel additive, in straight #2 diesel, and I've had no issues at all, even in these extreme cold temps.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

PanJet said:


> See if you can find Power Service 911 additive (red bottle). It's supposed to help de-gel diesel.
> 
> I've been using their white bottle, which is an anti-gel additive, in straight #2 diesel, and I've had no issues at all, even in these extreme cold temps.


I used the white bottle when I filled up yesterday. I put in 8-10oz of it. Unfortunately I have no way of getting that, because my car won't start...lol. I was thinking about that earlier.


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

I keep a bottle of the red-bottle "Diesel 911" from PowerService in the trunk, just in case, but otherwise I just vary my fuel blend for the anticipated temperatures. Since I go through a tank every 4-7 days, I can usually have a pretty good idea what temps I'm going to face during the tank, and if necessary, I can always top off with some straight #1 to handle unexpected changes to the forecast. 

I was a little concerned I would have to push it in the garage and aim 125,000 BTUs of bullet-heater at it this morning (or just shove it onto the lawn and drive the Jeep instead), but she did start up with a bit of effort. Will post a video on a separate thread in a few minutes.


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## titanman2789 (Oct 27, 2013)

Well not like you're going to go to the store and pick up power service when the car won't start. I can't believe it won't start though. I guess it's all part of owning a diesel

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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

After watching the video revjpeterson posted, I suspect the OP did not crank the car long enough. 

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/64-chevy-cruze-diesel/46121-18f-cold-start-video.html


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

spacedout said:


> After watching the video revjpeterson posted, I suspect the OP did not crank the car long enough.
> 
> http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/64-chevy-cruze-diesel/46121-18f-cold-start-video.html


My thoughts exactly!!


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

spacedout said:


> After watching the video revjpeterson posted, I suspect the OP did not crank the car long enough.
> 
> http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/64-chevy-cruze-diesel/46121-18f-cold-start-video.html


It has now warmed up to -9 and the car has been sitting in direct sunlight for most of the day...just tried it about ten min ago, and now the car won't even let me crank it for as long. Trust me, I let it try for a fair bit, even tried remote start twice.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Luigi said:


> It has now warmed up to -9 and the car has been sitting in direct sunlight for most of the day...just tried it about ten min ago, and now the car won't even let me crank it for as long. Trust me, I let it try for a fair bit, even tried remote start twice.


Well then, ring up your nearest dealer and let them sort it out (its a freebe anyways).....all that it needs is a warmup and battery charge.....probably won't be this cold here for another twenty years anyways (after tonight)

Rob


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> It has now warmed up to -9 and the car has been sitting in direct sunlight for most of the day...just tried it about ten min ago, and now the car won't even let me crank it for as long. Trust me, I let it try for a fair bit, even tried remote start twice.


I wonder if putting something hot on the fuel lines for a few minutes might help. I am thinking something like one of those gel ice packs, but except heated up.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Robby said:


> Well then, ring up your nearest dealer and let them sort it out (its a freebe anyways).....all that it needs is a warmup and battery charge.....probably won't be this cold here for another twenty years anyways (after tonight)
> 
> Rob


Good luck with that. If our area is any indication, you'd be better off waiting for the weather to get warmer. Our dealers (all of them, not just GM) and nearly every shop in town are slammed with cars that have had failures due to the extreme cold. I'm told a minimum one-week wait at the dealer here right now. The local tow company had a two-hour wait-list just for jump starting this morning.

My best advice if the additive doesn't work would be to try and get some heat under it. When we had gelled fuel on our tractors on the farm, we'd wrap the underside with tarps and aim a kerosene turbo heater under it (from a distance to protect against cooking something or lighting a fire).


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

Some came to the party prepared some did not ...


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## Barefeet (Jan 1, 2014)

You guys have me worried. I'm in balmy Rochester NY. They are predicting zero here tonight.
Question- Can you get a heater installed from the dealer? How much would it cost?
What about an oil change to a lighter oil?
Would a hair dryer warm up the fuel filter?
Electric space heater?
100m watt light bulbs?


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## revjpeterson (Oct 2, 2013)

If you're only expecting 0F, I wouldn't worry too much. Untreated #2 Diesel is good to 2 degrees above zero, and your fuel is probably treated to some degree. I've had no problem starting my Cruze down to -8 with no special fuel, additives, or even plugging in the heater. 

You can get the heater dealer-installed after purchase, but I remember others on this forum stating that the labor gets pretty steep. The heater is only an oil pan heater, so it only warms your oil, not the fuel or lines. This will make your engine turn easier and take some of the stress off of the starter, but it won't impact your fuel at all. If you watch my cold start video from this morning, that was unplugged, thus the slow/hard turn of the motor. A plugged-in start would have turned over a little easier, but probably would have taken just as long to actually fire, because of the fuel temperature.

As to oil, my motor is filled with 0W-30 right now, and I haven't seen much difference compared to the 5W-30 factory fill. If you needed to warm it up, I think your best bet is to get it indoors and/or aim a kerosene heater at it. I have a 125,000 BTU "bullet" type heater that I use to warm up my (uninsulated, unheated) garage when doing service work. It runs on Diesel, Kerosene, Heating Oil, or Jet Fuel. That would be my go-to tool if I ever needed to warm it up. I wouldn't see the hair dryer, light bulb, or any sort of electric heater being very effective, since you'd first have to lift the right-hand side of the car and pull the underbody panel to access the filter or fuel lines.


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

Barefeet said:


> You guys have me worried. I'm in balmy Rochester NY. They are predicting zero here tonight.


Worry not. I live in one of the coldest parts of the lower 48, and I've had no issues thus far, and I don't even have an oil pan heater. We've seen only two days with temps above zero F at all in the last eight days. You should be fine.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

**** ton of water in the fuel filter froze or faulty glow plugs. These temperatures shouldnt be a problem with winter fuel from the pumps or the car itself imo.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Well, even after getting Diesel 911, and putting it in the gas tank, it's still unable to start today. It's gonna be just as cold tomorrow and my work is getting irritated that I won't be able to get there again. I also noticed that when I was trying to start it earlier, the car was acting strange. My windshield wipers randomly came on a few times while trying to start it, and they DIC kept telling me to roll down the drivers window and put it back up, and then my hazards came on out of nowhere. I have also seen my CEL come on and stay on when the car is in the ON position, before trying to start. That may just be because of the cold.
Would this be covered under warranty? I really don't want to have the dealer tow it in if it won't be covered...


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## spacedout (Dec 7, 2010)

The day after we picked up our first diesel truck, we took a trip to northern Wisconsin. Even though we had the truck plugged in at the motel, the next cold morning the truck kept stalling and dying. Fuel was all gelled. 

Called chevy road side assistance and had it towed to the dealer, they put the truck in their warm garage and added some sort of diesel fuel additive. within 20 minutes the truck was warmed up and running great and we were back on our way. Dealer did not charge us anything. Not sure today if that would be the case as it seems they all want to charge for everything.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 27, 2013)

Luigi said:


> So a lot of places have been seeing extremely cold temps lately. Today is - 14 here and my car won't even start. It sucks but my work is probably gonna get closed anyways.


-14 here, just went out and turned it over. Didn't seem like it was going to start. I let off turning the key and it actually kept going (computer?) and started.

If this car has problems starting in the cold with winter blend, GM is going to be buying it back.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Well, even after getting Diesel 911, and putting it in the gas tank, it's still unable to start today. It's gonna be just as cold tomorrow and my work is getting irritated that I won't be able to get there again. I also noticed that when I was trying to start it earlier, the car was acting strange. My windshield wipers randomly came on a few times while trying to start it, and they DIC kept telling me to roll down the drivers window and put it back up, and then my hazards came on out of nowhere. I have also seen my CEL come on and stay on when the car is in the ON position, before trying to start. That may just be because of the cold.
> Would this be covered under warranty? I really don't want to have the dealer tow it in if it won't be covered...


I would consider all of that an operational defect/malfunction which would be covered by warranty. Basically it's not working like it's supposed to.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> -14 here, just went out and turned it over. Didn't seem like it was going to start. I let off turning the key and it actually kept going (computer?) and started.
> 
> If this car has problems starting in the cold with winter blend, GM is going to be buying it back.


Buybacks aren't as easy as you think. They would have to have 3 repair attempts (depending on yoru state) in which the problem still exists. A video of failed start with documented mileage before and after each repair attempt might help though. Plus GM's lawyers will fight you tooth and nail. Car manufacturers do not want to buy cars back. I had a lemon before and it was a gruelling process even with obvious issues.


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## CosmosGoat (Sep 23, 2013)

After work last night and the car sitting in -15 deg F weather for 10+ hours she fired right up. Glad I added the Diesel Kleen, gave me some peace of mind.


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## DLORESKI (Apr 9, 2012)

-10 temp here last night with windchills -30 to -40.
Car sat out from noon yesterday until 6AM today.
Coughed a couple times after cranking but smoothed right out.
I did put some PS in last week just in case it gelled.


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

Barefeet said:


> You guys have me worried. I'm in balmy Rochester NY. They are predicting zero here tonight.
> Question- Can you get a heater installed from the dealer? How much would it cost?
> What about an oil change to a lighter oil?
> Would a hair dryer warm up the fuel filter?
> ...


'
Herein lies the problem. Dealers in many states did not order cars with the block heaters when they should have. Really, anyone north of the Mason-Dixon line should have a block heater on their diesel. It's like Murphy's Law. You start selling diesels without heaters in Ohio or NY and it's going to drop to -15 the following winter, guaranteed.

BTW, the hair dryer on the fuel filter isn't a bad idea. I used to carry a propane torch back in the 80s for that exact purpose. 

_(Edit: Oil pan heater, not block heater. My age is showing)_


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## titanman2789 (Oct 27, 2013)

Took my car to Canada for a week. It has no oil pan heater. Highest temp the whole week was 1f. Average was probably -15f with wind chills around -30f and as low as nearly -50f at night. Started up every time and usually right away with no issue. You don't need the oil pan heater with today's technology. My oil was the normal 5w30. I doubt many, if any, dealers even carry the 0w30 dexos2. 

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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

More Horror stories I love em .. 36 degrees Saturday get that #1 Diesel Fuel !


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

After a hassle today I finally got it at least towed to the dealer, and it has been there for over 4 hours now...still waiting. and the only loaner they had was a cargo van...lol.


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## Barefeet (Jan 1, 2014)

Eugene_C said:


> '
> Herein lies the problem. Dealers in many states did not order cars with the block heaters when they should have. Really, anyone north of the Mason-Dixon line should have a block heater on their diesel. It's like Murphy's Law. You start selling diesels without heaters in Ohio or NY and it's going to drop to -15 the following winter, guaranteed.
> 
> BTW, the hair dryer on the fuel filter isn't a bad idea. I used to carry a propane torch back in the 80s for that exact purpose.
> ...


When I purchased my CTD in November I posed the following question to the service manager. " When my wife and I fly back from Florida in February and my car has been sitting in the parking lot in sub zero temperatures, will it start?" He assured me that there would be no problem.
I hope he is right.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

+1 for the oil pan heaters actual value being questionable

the stock oil is _fine _at these temps, and most will go 0Wxx and or syn

the oil pan heaters output is miniscule compared to my block heaters on my gas cars, my hood is free of snow when plugged in, engine bay warm....the cruze not even close...the dipstick is not cold, but its not warm either, i have a IR thermometer on the way to see what its actual temp is, but if you dont plug it in, the dipstick is actually cold, so there is a physical difference

and none of this will prevent gelling which is sounding to be the issue(s)

and none of this is extreme cold, its unusual temps for the area(s)

its all normal winter temps for up here, all our diesel is dandy


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> After a hassle today I finally got it at least towed to the dealer, and it has been there for over 4 hours now...still waiting. and the only loaner they had was a cargo van...lol.


Haha well at least the cargo van will get you where you're going, albeit with a bit of excitement in the snow since it's probably RWD


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Got my car back... $242 for labor and tow...and all they did was recharge my battery, and re attach my fuel line because apparently it blew out? and let the car sit in the garage for a few hours...WTF. They said it's because GM won't cover fuel...but they should have designed it so this won't happen then...I will be contacting GM tomorrow to see why I should be paying $242 for having the car not start...


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

where did the fuel line blow out?


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

boraz said:


> where did the fuel line blow out?


Never mind. I read the order wrong. They blew out the lines to clear them. 

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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

I really hope you goofie balls with the Diesel sharpen your skill set up a bit .. knowing about what additives to utilize and what combination of fuel to dispense and when can go a long way in preventing your fuel from gelling ... 

Now I know that there is another member besides myself that had the forsight to atleast try to Educate the New Owners of The Diesel Cruzen 2 Months in advance to this recent cold snap .. there is nothing wrong with heeding good advice from an Elder ..


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

brian v said:


> I really hope you goofie balls with the Diesel sharpen your skill set up a bit .. knowing about what additives to utilize and what combination of fuel to dispense and when can go a long way in preventing your fuel from gelling ...
> 
> Now I know that there is another member besides myself that had the forsight to atleast try to Educate the New Owners of The Diesel Cruzen 2 Months in advance to this recent cold snap .. there is nothing wrong with heeding good advice from an Elder ..


I'm not sure what you're talking about. In case you haven't been paying attention to all the threads lately, most every diesel owner has been paying close attention to what fuel and additives they're using for the cold. So far, this is the first case any of us have heard of with gelled fuel, and the driver bought fuel in Wisconsin (if it wasn't treated it is the station's fault, it is Wisconsin for heaven's sake), and added PS anti-gel, which is pretty much what most of us are doing.

Nobody can help it if they get a bad batch of fuel, which is probably what happened here.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

brian v said:


> I really hope you goofie balls with the Diesel sharpen your skill set up a bit .. knowing about what additives to utilize and what combination of fuel to dispense and when can go a long way in preventing your fuel from gelling ...
> 
> Now I know that there is another member besides myself that had the forsight to atleast try to Educate the New Owners of The Diesel Cruzen 2 Months in advance to this recent cold snap .. there is nothing wrong with heeding good advice from an Elder ..


I did have 8oz of power service in my tank, and unfortunately I have no control of the blend that the gas station sells. 

On another note, it was -12 this morning and my car started perfect. It did also have half a bottle of diesel 911 and an additional 4oz of PS yesterday though. 

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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

Glad it all got taken care of (for the most part). It sucks that you had to go through that, especially when you took all the proper precautions. On a little side note, I've only filled my car in WI (over 20 fills) at the same 2 stations (a Shell and a Mobil. I’m not sure what the blend is) and up until 2 weeks ago, I never added PS. They both are pretty high volume stations, so I'm guessing it was just a bad batch of fuel (as mentioned above). Too bad it happened to come in during the coldest spell in years.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Got my car back... $242 for labor and tow...and all they did was recharge my battery, and re attach my fuel line because apparently it blew out? and let the car sit in the garage for a few hours...WTF. They said it's because GM won't cover fuel...but they should have designed it so this won't happen then...I will be contacting GM tomorrow to see why I should be paying $242 for having the car not start...


I can't get to page 5 for some reason so apologies if this is a repeat question, but were you the person who posted that he had a fuel leak that was repaired early on?


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

plasticplant said:


> Glad it all got taken care of (for the most part). It sucks that you had to go through that, especially when you took all the proper precautions. On a little side note, I've only filled my car in WI (over 20 fills) at the same 2 stations (a Shell and a Mobil. I’m not sure what the blend is) and up until 2 weeks ago, I never added PS. They both are pretty high volume stations, so I'm guessing it was just a bad batch of fuel (as mentioned above). Too bad it happened to come in during the coldest spell in years.


Which ones? I used the shell off of 75th and 94 in Kenosha. 

No I did not post about a fuel leak before. 

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## Garandman (Dec 31, 2013)

Robby said:


> This is the tough part of first time diesel ownership.....getting the fuel right because below 0 it 'gels' in the fuel filter.
> The only response is to get it hauled into an area above 0 and let it sit for a half hour....they come right back to life.//
> Rob


A buddy had to aim one of those propane-fueled "torpedo" heaters at his pickup truck for nearly and hour to ge tit going.

Some of the big trucks have fuel line heaters but never heard of a car requiring this.


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## Eugene_C (Mar 15, 2012)

Barefeet said:


> When I purchased my CTD in November I posed the following question to the service manager. " When my wife and I fly back from Florida in February and my car has been sitting in the parking lot in sub zero temperatures, will it start?" He assured me that there would be no problem.
> I hope he is right.


Do let us know how it turned out.


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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Which ones? I used the shell off of 75th and 94 in Kenosha.
> 
> No I did not post about a fuel leak before.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


A town called Newville. Just outside of Edgerton. Both stations are right off I90. Not too close to you I'm afraid.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> So a lot of places have been seeing extremely cold temps lately. Today is - 14 here and my car won't even start. It sucks but my work is probably gonna get closed anyways.
> 
> I have also been having trouble getting my remote start to work consistently. If it's below ten degrees, sometime it will start, then shut off, then I try to start it again with the remote, and the lights flash, but it doesn't even try. Anyone else experience this?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


Not to make light of your car not starting, but my friend's 2013 Accord started yesterday morning - and wouldn't move. It had about 5 error lights on the dash. To me, this speaks volumes about the affect of cold weather on cars - gas or diesel and even new cars.


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## brian v (Dec 25, 2011)

PanJet said:


> I'm not sure what you're talking about. In case you haven't been paying attention to all the threads lately, most every diesel owner has been paying close attention to what fuel and additives they're using for the cold. So far, this is the first case any of us have heard of with gelled fuel, and the driver bought fuel in Wisconsin (if it wasn't treated it is the station's fault, it is Wisconsin for heaven's sake), and added PS anti-gel, which is pretty much what most of us are doing.
> 
> Nobody can help it if they get a bad batch of fuel, which is probably what happened
> 
> here.


Bad Batch of Fuel Malarky .. Ill Preperation is more likely the cause !

But any who Ha Ha Ha Ha hohohahaha yeah we are laughing because we can ..


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Garandman said:


> A buddy had to aim one of those propane-fueled "torpedo" heaters at his pickup truck for nearly and hour to ge tit going.
> 
> Some of the big trucks have fuel line heaters but never heard of a car requiring this.


ive not driven a big truck with heated fuel lines, but have driven big trucks with heated tanks, but thats for driving, doesnt help when youre parked and engine off


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

boraz said:


> ive not driven a big truck with heated fuel lines, but have driven big trucks with heated tanks, but thats for driving, doesnt help when youre parked and engine off


Our cars do the same thing recirculating hot fuel back into the tank......once the vehicle is up to operating temp of course


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## Garandman (Dec 31, 2013)

Anyone using a winter grill cover? It's been around zero here for a while and the engine will barely warm itself at idle. But it does seem to come up to normal operating range even on the highway with cold air passing through.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Garandman said:


> Anyone using a winter grill cover? It's been around zero here for a while and the engine will barely warm itself at idle. But it does seem to come up to normal operating range even on the highway with cold air passing through.


My engine barely warms itself at idle in 80 degree weather... You need to drive it, idling gets you nowhere. 

I was looking into a grill cover but frankly my temp gauge moves after just a couple miles, even on that -9 day I took the video of so I said **** with it.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

There is a member from Finland that mentions a mask......I interpet that as a winterfront.

As you are learning this little engine can be cooled by the heater core alone in low temps......don't think a winterfront would have much affect other than keeping some of the heat underhood at shutoff.
You will learn to not run the fan speed at much past one or two to speed warmup time.

One of our members, Extreme Revolution, is currently running a bit of a experiment using a Amsoil product for more effective heat transfer.......search around.

Lots and lots of discussion every winter.

Rob


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Robby said:


> There is a member from Finland that mentions a mask......I interpet that as a winterfront.
> 
> As you are learning this little engine can be cooled by the heater core alone in low temps......don't think a winterfront would have much affect other than keeping some of the heat underhood at shutoff.
> You will learn to not run the fan speed at much past one or two to speed warmup time.
> ...


I noticed this exact thing, keep the heater at 1 and the car warms pretty quick, keep it at full blast on a bitterly cold day and the needle wont move for a very long time...


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

After contacting Shell, and submitting a claim based on the fact that the station owner must not have ordered Diesel with sufficient #1 for the cold temperatures predicted, they have denied my claim. All they tell me is that it is through a vendor, and not actually shell providing the fuel, and that the diesel is all up to spec, and no other customers have had a complaint about it.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

In the future, I would use a cold weather additive of your own. AMSOIL makes a diesel cold flow additive that prevents this issue. They also make a bottle that combines their cold floe and injector clean. I went over those in another thread.

Sent from mobile.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> In the future, I would use a cold weather additive of your own. AMSOIL makes a diesel cold flow additive that prevents this issue. They also make a bottle that combines their cold floe and injector clean. I went over those in another thread.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


Like I said earlier in the thread, I had 8oz of PS in there, yet this still happened

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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Luigi said:


> Like I said earlier in the thread, I had 8oz of PS in there, yet this still happened
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


I specifically mentioned AMSOIL products. Diesel 911 is not among the best products out there. AMSOIL's DRCCN - Diesel emergency recovery additive is far more effective. AMSOIL's cold flow additive prevents this from happening in the first place. 

I have seen them both at work. My NAPA account ordered 10 *gallons* of the AMSOIL product last week. 

There are products out there that sometimes work. AMSOIL works better. In this case, 2x better. I'll send you a PM in a second.

Sent from mobile.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

All this makes me wonder exactly what the heater above our fuel filter does.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

diesel said:


> All this makes me wonder exactly what the heater above our fuel filter does.


Clearly, this is a fluke case of very crappy fuel or other unknown variables. Not a single other person (many in much colder regions) had any issues at all during the "Polar Vortex" 

Even on the VW board, no common rails had any issues other then intercooler icing but that is an engineered defect in their engines.

Poor Luigi had a host of bad luck during that time beyond gelled fuel from the sounds of posts.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

KpaxFAQ said:


> Clearly, this is a fluke case of very crappy fuel or other unknown variables. Not a single other person (many in much colder regions) had any issues at all during the "Polar Vortex"
> 
> Even on the VW board, no common rails had any issues other then intercooler icing but that is an engineered defect in their engines.
> 
> Poor Luigi had a host of bad luck during that time beyond gelled fuel from the sounds of posts.


I wouldn't count on it. Every distributor in my area was sold out of diesel 911 and quart bottles of AMSOIL diesel emergency recovery. My NAPA account bought 10 GALLONS of that stuff, which was all the regional distributor had left. There were a lot of diesel engines that weren't starting around here. Happened to one of my friends with an excursion as well. 

Sent from mobile.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I wouldn't count on it. Every distributor in my area was sold out of diesel 911 and quart bottles of AMSOIL diesel emergency recovery. My NAPA account bought 10 GALLONS of that stuff, which was all the regional distributor had left. There were a lot of diesel engines that weren't starting around here. Happened to one of my friends with an excursion as well.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


100% improper fuel.

how does my diesel cruze, and all the diesel equipment at the coal mine i work at continue to operate just fine WITHOUT ADDITIVES with temps colder than those in this thread?

cuz we have proper fuel.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

boraz said:


> 100% improper fuel.
> 
> how does my diesel cruze, and all the diesel equipment at the coal mine i work at continue to operate just fine WITHOUT ADDITIVES with temps colder than those in this thread?
> 
> cuz we have proper fuel.


Define proper fuel. When everyone is sold out of an emergency additive, there is a whole heck of a lot of "improper fuel" going around. Are you referring to mixing #1 with #2 diesel and the gas station's either refusal or inability to mix the two? How far out of their way do people need to go to find "proper fuel," and how much does this "proper fuel" cost?

From what I have been able to tell, mixing #1 diesel lowers the cloud point of the fuel. However, #1 diesel is also more expensive. Which is cheaper; adding a cold flow (de-gelling) diesel additive, or filling an entire tank with a percentage of #1 diesel? Keep in mind mind a bottle of fuel additive is $7.xx and lowers the cloud point by 20C for 40 gallons of fuel. 

From the limited research I have done, #1 diesel will also provide 5% less energy than #2 diesel, which will reduce fuel economy, so factor that into the equation as well. On top of that, there are concerns regarding lubrication of very expensive fuel pumps and injectors on newer vehicles that were not an issue with older diesels due to the far more precise atomization of fuel in the newer injectors. 

If all you have in your area is #2 diesel, an additive will fix the problem for a lot less than it will cost you to drive out of your way to find #1 diesel or a #1 diesel blend. This is often not an option if you already have a full tank.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Define proper fuel. When everyone is sold out of an emergency additive, there is a whole heck of a lot of "improper fuel" going around. Are you referring to mixing #1 with #2 diesel and the gas station's either refusal or inability to mix the two? How far out of their way do people need to go to find "proper fuel," and how much does this "proper fuel" cost?
> 
> From what I have been able to tell, mixing #1 diesel lowers the cloud point of the fuel. However, #1 diesel is also more expensive. Which is cheaper; adding a cold flow (de-gelling) diesel additive, or filling an entire tank with a percentage of #1 diesel? Keep in mind mind a bottle of fuel additive is $7.xx and lowers the cloud point by 20C for 40 gallons of fuel.
> 
> ...


proper fuel = the fuel out of the one hose im allowed to choose from....we dont have no #1 and #2 silliness....it just works.

currently diesel is 40 cents more per gallon than 87, cuz of a refinery shutdown and winter, in summer its par to 10 cents more per gallon than 87

canadian diesel doesnt suffer from the lubricity issues in the usa

on winter fuel and studded tires my mpg is still above epa

the fuel for the minesite i work at is delivered in super b's and i then deliver it around the 75,000 acre site....its just seasonal diesel...we have storage for 100,000 g, and receive 50,000 g 5 days a week....the fuel is never bad....

the 12 yrs that i highway trucked (every state other than hawaii and every province/territory other than newfoundland) the only times i had fuel issues was going south to north and not having enough proper fuel in the tanks for the area, never had an issue with canadian fuel goin south.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

boraz said:


> proper fuel = the fuel out of the one hose im allowed to choose from....we dont have no #1 and #2 silliness....it just works.
> 
> currently diesel is 40 cents more per gallon than 87, cuz of a refinery shutdown and winter, in summer its par to 10 cents more per gallon than 87
> 
> ...


I agree with this guy. Gelling is not rampant with region specific fuel. We don't have separate pumps here either, it just works. Modern common rails with fuel not completely water logged should start just fine... 

I use some power service not for anti gel but for cetane boost to get my number as close to 51 as possible and to assist the water separator removing water easier.

I'd like to run some of the amsoil products to compare sometime.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I wouldn't count on it. Every distributor in my area was sold out of diesel 911 and quart bottles of AMSOIL diesel emergency recovery. My NAPA account bought 10 GALLONS of that stuff, which was all the regional distributor had left. There were a lot of diesel engines that weren't starting around here. Happened to one of my friends with an excursion as well.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


Was your friends excursion the 7.3 or 6.0? Neither are common rail engines, neither start as easy as the cruze in the cold.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

KpaxFAQ said:


> Was your friends excursion the 7.3 or 6.0? Neither are common rail engines, neither start as easy as the cruze in the cold.


I don't remember. I do remember he posted a picture of the filter, which was gelled all over. The fuel crystallized and the filter clogged. 

Sent from mobile.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

KpaxFAQ said:


> I agree with this guy. Gelling is not rampant with region specific fuel. We don't have separate pumps here either, it just works. Modern common rails with fuel not completely water logged should start just fine...
> 
> I use some power service not for anti gel but for cetane boost to get my number as close to 51 as possible and to assist the water separator removing water easier.
> 
> I'd like to run some of the amsoil products to compare sometime.


AMSOIOL has a bottle specifically for cetane boost. Fairly inexpensive as well. I can get you a couple at wholesale price if you'd like to try it out. 

Sent from mobile.


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## jblackburn (Apr 14, 2012)

KpaxFAQ said:


> Was your friends excursion the 7.3 or 6.0? Neither are common rail engines, neither start as easy as the cruze in the cold.


A 7.3 just plain doesn't start at all easily in cold =D. 


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## Sunline Fan (Jul 29, 2012)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I don't remember. I do remember he posted a picture of the filter, which was gelled all over. The fuel crystallized and the filter clogged.
> 
> Sent from mobile.


If you have a pic of the truck, send it to me, I'll probably be able to tell.


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## Cruze2.0Diesel (Jun 30, 2013)

Fuel filter heater blanket should keep the fuel from gelling, the other I'm not sure how you would use it on a cruze but we use to put them on the lower radiator hoses, they circulate and heat the coolant to 120*....and it's going to be cold again this week.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Cruze2.0Diesel said:


> Fuel filter heater blanket should keep the fuel from gelling, the other I'm not sure how you would use it on a cruze but we use to put them on the lower radiator hoses, they circulate and heat the coolant to 120*....and it's going to be cold again this week.


Awesome! This is exactly what the Frostheater is for VW. Heats and circulates the coolant. Instant heat, summer MPG performance. Much better than oil pan heater. Circulating the coolant heats everything.


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## Garandman (Dec 31, 2013)

The Subaru cold weather start package is an engine block heater and a battery blanket. Works great and you get heat much sooner.


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## Cruze2.0Diesel (Jun 30, 2013)

Garandman said:


> The Subaru cold weather start package is an engine block heater and a battery blanket. Works great and you get heat much sooner.


Is the battery blanket heated or just an insulator?


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## giantsnation (Oct 11, 2012)

Great, more cold. Feels like is -5*. Time to pay an intern to run out and start the Cruze.


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## Barefeet (Jan 1, 2014)

At -7 deg. after five miles driving my temp gauge was pegged at the bottom. I turned the heater blower off and it started creeping up. I turned the blower back on and it cooled the engine back down.
Question, does the Cruze have a built in electric heater? I was getting warm air after only a few minutes driving.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Barefeet said:


> At -7 deg. after five miles driving my temp gauge was pegged at the bottom. I turned the heater blower off and it started creeping up. I turned the blower back on and it cooled the engine back down.
> Question, does the Cruze have a built in electric heater? I was getting warm air after only a few minutes driving.


diesel cruze has electric heater to compensate for the _slow_​ heating of the coolant


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## Jorday (Jul 30, 2013)

My car started up in -12 this morning after being outside at those temps all night. Other than the engine being noisy you wouldn't have even known it was cold out by the way it started up. It fired right up. Didn't even seem like it cranked slower or longer than usual. I do think the heater performance in this car is disappointing however. The engine heats up very slowly and won't warm up at all if you use the heat above fan setting 2. If you wait for the engine to warm up it will not stay warm once you turn the heat on high. The supplemental electric heater functions poorly, and it doesn't come anywhere close to being adequate to making up for the engine not being able to heat the car. After driving over 30 miles today I wasn't warm enough to even turn the heat down from the highest setting.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Guys, I posted a separate thread about how to get your engine to warm up much faster in these cold temps. THe thread never seemed to get too much attention though.


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## vwgtiglx (Jun 13, 2013)

boraz said:


> diesel cruze has electric heater to compensate for the _slow_​ heating of the coolant


You have to set the Heater Control to MAX when you first start the car. It even works when you remote start the car if you remember to leave it set to MAX when you shut off the car. It is a good addition to the heated seats.


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## Cruze2.0Diesel (Jun 30, 2013)

Is the electric heater the same as the one in the volt, and does it say in the owners manual that you have to have it on MAX?


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## remward88 (Nov 21, 2013)

Do you have OnStar feature?
Remote start good for two shots between key stars. 
Any engine lights on dash?


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## remward88 (Nov 21, 2013)

It might take up to twenty minutes but my 2014 is a toaster when it comes to heat.


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## Roadburner440 (Dec 29, 2013)

Cruze2.0Diesel said:


> Is the electric heater the same as the one in the volt, and does it say in the owners manual that you have to have it on MAX?


I wouldn't think so.. The Volt has a 7.7kwh electric heater. I don't think the electric system on the Cruze is capable of anywhere near that amount of power output which is probably why it doesn't seem to work very well. I know in the Volt as long as I have it in comfort mode I get heat within a minute or two, and in about 5 minutes it is blasting hot. The one in the Cruze might be similiar, but a scaled down variant. Something I do with our Nissan Leaf is block the radiator to help retain heat cause for some dumb reason it circulates the coolant used to heat the cabin through the radiator (very inefficient). Whenever I do switch to the Cruze it looks like for cold spells like this blocking out portions of the radiator is going to be my go to method.


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## Cruze2.0Diesel (Jun 30, 2013)

Absolutely, blocking off portions of the radiator would be my method as well, I just haven't found were it says you can turn it on MAX when you first start it to get the electric system working, and I know some of the eco cruze owners would love to have the electric heater from the cruze diesel installed.


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## Roadburner440 (Dec 29, 2013)

Would seem to me with the diesel they could make something similar to a hydronic kerosene/diesel heater that would sufficiently heat the cabin in the winter when the engine is unable to, and allow the engine and its coolant to retain its heat. GM did this on the EV1, and is something that I wished they had carried over on the Volt. Electric heating is at best inefficient, and takes a lot of power to heat up to comfortable levels. Volvo is actually offering an Ethanol heater on the C-30 so this concept may be catching back on. It just amazes me the 1.4 and 2.0 is unable to maintain high heat in cold climates.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

This thread has been totally hijacked, so please, unless the conversation is related to my circumstances, then refrain from posting it here. I will have more updates coming soon regarding talking to the station owner and getting details on the fuel.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Cruze2.0Diesel said:


> Absolutely, blocking off portions of the radiator would be my method as well, I just haven't found were it says you can turn it on MAX when you first start it to get the electric system working, and I know some of the eco cruze owners would love to have the electric heater from the cruze diesel installed.


I have had good success with the electric heater when I put the fan on the 4th highest setting.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> This thread has been totally hijacked, so please, unless the conversation is related to my circumstances, then refrain from posting it here. I will have more updates coming soon regarding talking to the station owner and getting details on the fuel.


Oops sorry, I posted about the heater before I read that. I am very interested to hear what you find out about the fuel that caused your situation.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

We are expecting temps below -20 on Monday night again...I really hope this doesn't happen again. I will be driving a lot this weekend to empty my tank, and trying out the AMSOIL Product that XtremeRevolution recommended. Also will be filling up at BP.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Luigi said:


> We are expecting temps below -20 on Monday night again...I really hope this doesn't happen again. I will be driving a lot this weekend to empty my tank, and trying out the AMSOIL Product that XtremeRevolution recommended. Also will be filling up at BP.


do the BP or the amsoil, doing both solves nothing, you wont be able to eliminate a possiblity


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## DieselMan33 (Oct 13, 2013)

Luigi said:


> We are expecting temps below -20 on Monday night again...I really hope this doesn't happen again. I will be driving a lot this weekend to empty my tank, and trying out the AMSOIL Product that XtremeRevolution recommended. Also will be filling up at BP.


-20 must be wind chill? Next week here in Michigan we are not suppose to make it above 10 until Thursday.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

boraz said:


> do the BP or the amsoil, doing both solves nothing, you wont be able to eliminate a possiblity


^ Agreed. Change only one variable at a time or you won't know which one made the improvement.


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

I wonder if there was a bad batch of fuel in the Chicago area since xtreme said there were a bunch of gelling issues. I know more people then I can count with diesels, many dont use additives who didn't gel during that same freak cold and have never gelled period.

interested to hear what happens with the station you're talking to.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

The majority of stations are not configured for entry or exit of large, diesel powered trucks.
Those that sell diesel, only are selling to the rather small diesel powered private vehicle and pick up truck owners.
As a result, the underground only needs to be replenished maybe once every two or three weeks....maybe longer.
This results in fuel that is 'behind' the current weather conditions.
For example, the last underground fill was configured for ambient average temperature three weeks ago.....it is now twenty degrees cooler than that average.
You refill your tank and the fuel gells overnight because it is the incorrect blend.

Advice: In the cold winter months only buy fuel where heavy vehicles buy fuel.....the underground tank is shared by both sides of the facility and likely are replenished every two or three days, assuring you of correctly blended fuel for the anticipated temperatures.

Rob


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

DieselMan33 said:


> -20 must be wind chill? Next week here in Michigan we are not suppose to make it above 10 until Thursday.


No, it's the actual temp. 

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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

XtremeRevolution said:


> ^ Agreed. Change only one variable at a time or you won't know which one made the improvement.


I have been filling at BP ever since the incident happened with shell. I honestly don't care which one fixes it, as long as it doesn't happen again. Not really something that I want to be testing with my car... And a $250 bill if it does gel again. 

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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Robby said:


> The majority of stations are not configured for entry or exit of large, diesel powered trucks.
> Those that sell diesel, only are selling to the rather small diesel powered private vehicle and pick up truck owners.
> As a result, the underground only needs to be replenished maybe once every two or three weeks....maybe longer.
> This results in fuel that is 'behind' the current weather conditions.
> ...


The only problem with that theory is that the shell I filled up with uses an additive rather than D1 mix, so it's the same all winter long. I am guessing BP does the same thing. 

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## Arne73 (Nov 24, 2013)

I live in rural northern Will county and have driving my diesel all winter with no issues (knock on wood). I use no additives, not because I "know better" but because I'm not familiar with them. I've purchased my last 3 fill ups at a Shell Circle K that has been steadily reducing the per gl price, Thursday it was $3.37. 
My car is garage kept but sits outdoors during my 12 hour shifts. A couple rough starts but always on the first
Lots of good cold winter info here. Good luck this week with the upcoming low temps Luigi!


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## vwgtiglx (Jun 13, 2013)

Where abouts in Will county are you getting Diesel for $3.37?


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Luigi said:


> I have been filling at BP ever since the incident happened with shell. I honestly don't care which one fixes it, as long as it doesn't happen again. Not really something that I want to be testing with my car... And a $250 bill if it does gel again.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


Yeah I wouldn't really chance that either. I don't blame you. Either way, you have two bottles to use up so that should cover you for a while. 



Arne73 said:


> I live in rural northern Will county and have driving my diesel all winter with no issues (knock on wood). I use no additives, not because I "know better" but because I'm not familiar with them. I've purchased my last 3 fill ups at a Shell Circle K that has been steadily reducing the per gl price, Thursday it was $3.37.
> My car is garage kept but sits outdoors during my 12 hour shifts. A couple rough starts but always on the first
> Lots of good cold winter info here. Good luck this week with the upcoming low temps Luigi!


I would recommend a cetane boost and injector clean additive on a regular basis. Diesel fuel is not what it used to be, and neither are diesel engines. They've reduced the quality (sulfur) of the fuel, compromised it's lubricating ability, and compromised component longevity as well. I see Diesel engines as life-long engines, and I don't see fuel injectors and fuel pumps as wear items, but they will wear out over ~300k miles with the fuel quality we have here.


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## Arne73 (Nov 24, 2013)

vwgtiglx said:


> Where abouts in Will county are you getting Diesel for $3.37?


Circle K @ Monee-Manhattan road & La Grange road (Route 45)


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

I spoke with the GM of the shell station today. He showed me the paperwork for the Diesel they order, and its D2 with a Lubrication additive, and an additive called Gold R1. He stated that it's the best Diesel there is, but had absolutely no info on it, and gave me the MSDS for the Gasoline they sell...wtf. So next stop is to contact R&M Petroleum, which is who supplies the gas to that station, and find out what Gold R1 is.

As far as Monday's temps go...I will be filling up at BP tomorrow, and putting in the antigel, to make sure it makes it through my whole system by Monday night.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Luigi said:


> I spoke with the GM of the shell station today. He showed me the paperwork for the Diesel they order, and its D2 with a Lubrication additive, and an additive called Gold R1. He stated that it's the best Diesel there is, but had absolutely no info on it, and gave me the MSDS for the Gasoline they sell...wtf. So next stop is to contact R&M Petroleum, which is who supplies the gas to that station, and find out what Gold R1 is.
> 
> As far as Monday's temps go...I will be filling up at BP tomorrow, and putting in the antigel, to make sure it makes it through my whole system by Monday night.


Let me know how that goes. It's supposed to hit -20 as a low Monday night into Tuesday morning.


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## Jim Frye (Mar 16, 2011)

Here's a list of the registered fuel additives from the EPA and there's a ton of them:

List of Registered Diesel Additives | List of Registered Fuels and Fuel Additives | Fuels and Fuel Additives | US EPA

I didn't see Gold R1 listed there, but I did see Amsoil and GM products. I also found some university research papers that list R1 and gold as components in the making of biodiesel. The EPA also lists biodiesel as an additive for diesel fuel. 

Someone please stop me before I Google again.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 27, 2013)

I haven't had the car fail to start yet, and I'm not using a heater.

It's actually quite a bit colder than what the internal thermometer is reading.



I did buy a quart of Diesel 911 but not sure I'll ever need to use it unless I pickup a bad winter blend.

Took a video at -12F...Sorry about the vertical video syndrome, I was cold and forgot:






The car actually keeps cranking if you don't hold the key down...which you can hear.


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## Arne73 (Nov 24, 2013)

Where are you at gyrfalcon?


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

I don't know but he didn't read this thread and missed the OP's memo to please not hijack it anymore. There's a few cold start threads including my own floating around or start your own.


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## gyrfalcon (Dec 27, 2013)

KpaxFAQ said:


> I don't know but he didn't read this thread and missed the OP's memo to please not hijack it anymore. There's a few cold start threads including my own floating around or start your own.


I'm not sure if you're replying to me, or if you think I'm "hijacking" the thread... I'm just sharing my personal experience with the original poster. The diesel Cruze should start fine in the cold with the appropriate winter blend of fuel (which varies by state) unless you have something wrong with your car.



Arne73 said:


> Where are you at gyrfalcon?


Minnesnowta


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

So today I filled up at BP, added in the PS, and just for some added insurance, put in a bit of the AMSOIL product...I am sure someone will now tell me that I shouldn't mix additives...but as long as my car starts on Tuesday morning...I will be happy.


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## Arne73 (Nov 24, 2013)

KpaxFAQ said:


> I don't know but he didn't read this thread and missed the OP's memo to please not hijack it anymore. There's a few cold start threads including my own floating around or start your own.


I'm in the same geographic area as the OP and am adding my experiences IRT his original post, sort of the whole point of a forum donchathink.


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## XtremeRevolution (Jan 19, 2012)

Luigi said:


> So today I filled up at BP, added in the PS, and just for some added insurance, put in a bit of the AMSOIL product...I am sure someone will now tell me that I shouldn't mix additives...but as long as my car starts on Tuesday morning...I will be happy.


Ultimately, all this will tell you is whether or not your vehicle will start given those additives. This will not tell you which additive or which fuel contributed to your car starting perfectly fine under those temperatures. 

While at the end of the day, this saves you a few hundred dollars, you ultimately will not have learned what effect those additives have. The whole idea of using AMSOIL was to use that in your fuel to determine if that would prevent your fuel from gelling. Since you won't know which additive did what, will you add both of those additives to your fuel next time we have another cold spell, and every time after that?

Don't get me wrong, I will certainly be glad to see your car start in the coldest conditions possible (and we will be hitting negative teens again Monday night into Tuesday morning), but if all it takes is a bottle of the AMSOIL cold flow or a bottle of PS antigel to ensure that your car starts, that would have been valuable information to have.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

I recommend against the temptation to use more than one additive at the same time. 

I know it seems like it's a good idea. If a little will help, why not more and different kinds. But in reality no manufacture can design their product on the premise that the user will mix it with some other product of unknown formulation. 

It seems to me that you are compounding additional variables in the diagnosis of your problem. I know that when we find ourselves in desperate situations we tend to throw everything we've got at the problem. Sometimes in an almost superstitious effort to get things to work. I saw my father do this 35+ years ago dumping gasoline antifreeze into his tank. In the end it was operator error and he just didn't follow the starting procedure published in the owners manual. But from his perspective he drove a deuce an a half in the Korean War and he sure enough didn't have to read a book in order to start a car. Not saying it's operator error in your case but I just wanted to illustrate the point. 

I might be in the minority here but it would seem best to stick with a known good source of fuel and maybe one additive. But nothing more. And if you're using a premium diesel like Shell V-Power diesel it already has an additive injected at the pump and I don't recommend adding anything else. 

Here's an objective testing of diesel additives. When you read it you discover that some additives are not the holy grail that some proponents make them out to be. 

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76.../177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html

I've posted this at least twice before, but it never seems to register with our community. 


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

gyrfalcon said:


> I'm not sure if you're replying to me, or if you think I'm "hijacking" the thread... I'm just sharing my personal experience with the original poster. The diesel Cruze should start fine in the cold with the appropriate winter blend of fuel (which varies by state) unless you have something wrong with your car.
> 
> 
> 
> Minnesnowta



Sorry, what I gathered from the original poster late in the thread was that he wanted this thread to remain about his trials and tribulations of his own personal vehicle starting or not starting and what caused it not to and how to prevent it in the future. He asked us to quit talking about other stuff. 

I didn't think another one of us stating/showing how awesome ours started in subzero temperatures was what he was looking for. It's been established that it's not the car's fault what so ever. This car will start on the north pole with the right fuel and a good battery like you demonstrate. Minnesota is close enough for me! 



Luigi, 

I would agree with Xtreme and Tomko. Stick to one additive. At least one additive manufacturer. AMSoil makes different ones that do specifically different things. I'd mix those in a heartbeat. I really think there was something wrong with your fuel you got that no additive would cure. PowerService is pretty reputable. You don't get away with selling as much as they do if it's complete garbage.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Well, after cranking a bit it started. Thankfully it only got to about -18 instead of -24. I pushed the remote start from inside my apartment, and at first the tail lights didn't come on, so I figured it hadn't started. I checked on it a minute later and it was running. Let it warm. Up for about 15 min, and even in that time it was so cold that the electric assisted heating couldn't even make a dent it the slight frost on my windshield. 
I sure hate living up here... 

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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

^^^ Glad it started.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Just got some good news! After getting in contact with the station owner to find out more about the additive, they agreed to pay for my repair bill since I have been persistent, even though they still claim their fuel wasn't an issue. I did also get my insurance company to cover the tow, so thankfully I have got the whole cost covered! 
I will still be contacting shell directly to find out more info on the additive. 

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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Just got some good news! After getting in contact with the station owner to find out more about the additive, they agreed to pay for my repair bill since I have been persistent, even though they still claim their fuel wasn't an issue. I did also get my insurance company to cover the tow, so thankfully I have got the whole cost covered!
> I will still be contacting shell directly to find out more info on the additive.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


Wow! I never would of guessed they would of came through like that in good faith. Nice to hear a good story like this once in awhile.


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## Sperry (Aug 3, 2013)

Great news.. hopefully your troubles are over


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

In my experience Shell has always been a slightly higher end 'gas' station - if there can be such a thing. I've been consistently using their fuels for almost 30 years without problem. 


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

Tomko said:


> In my experience Shell has always been a slightly higher end 'gas' station - if there can be such a thing. I've been consistently using their fuels for almost 30 years without problem.
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com App


That's interesting. I always thought highly of them when it came to gasoline, but with diesel I seem to get somewhat lower MPGs with branded Shell diesel, however the engine runs much quieter it seems. Maybe I have just been hitting it wrong. I actually just put a tank of it in this evening because I had a gift card so we'll see. I guess it could be the way their diesel is winterized. I hope I can convince myself to keep using them. We're talking low 4.20s at Shell vs. 4.30-4.49 from almost all other non-Shell stations.


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## Roadburner440 (Dec 29, 2013)

Glad to see they are stepping up to pay for the repairs. As far as Shell goes as a fuel company I usually try to avoid them. With the Trailblazer their fuels were eating the level sending unit sensors. However on their diesel I heard it was supposed to be better, and a higher cetane rating. So when I picked up the Cruze was going to try it. So is disappointing to hear the mileage is actually lower. I figured with the higher cetane rating, and it being a "premium" diesel as they like to say it would provide higher fuel economy.


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

Roadburner440 said:


> Glad to see they are stepping up to pay for the repairs. As far as Shell goes as a fuel company I usually try to avoid them. With the Trailblazer their fuels were eating the level sending unit sensors. However on their diesel I heard it was supposed to be better, and a higher cetane rating. So when I picked up the Cruze was going to try it. So is disappointing to hear the mileage is actually lower. I figured with the higher cetane rating, and it being a "premium" diesel as they like to say it would provide higher fuel economy.


I'd be very interested to see what you find. It could be regional too. I know our fuel tends to come from Montreal which I hear is from Brent crude offloaded in Maine. Maybe the Shell fuel comes from somewhere else though and is WTI crude? I'm not sure if it really matters after it gets out of the refinery (except price).


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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Most fuel comes from the local pipeline and stations can dump in additional additives as they wish. All local Shell stations here get their fuel from Erie Petroleum who according to the MSDS on their site gets their fuel from Sunoco. The MSDS shows all the appropriate additives already in the fuel before they get it.

It's also the only B5 fuel I've been able to find locally. Everything else is B2 by law.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Shell’s official response is

“……Shell retail sites offer diesel fuel in different geographic regions of the country based on the typical winter temperatures encountered in each region. We cannot share with you information on additives Shell may use in diesel fuel for improved cold weather performance as this information is proprietary in nature. Customers should purchase their fuel from a reputable dealer and use a high quality such as Shell..”

David Ketchum
Shell Oil Co US


Lame...have to do more digging I guess. I am not signing their release form until I get the answers I am after...


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

The truth is out there. 


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Shell’s official response is
> 
> “……Shell retail sites offer diesel fuel in different geographic regions of the country based on the typical winter temperatures encountered in each region. We cannot share with you information on additives Shell may use in diesel fuel for improved cold weather performance as this information is proprietary in nature. Customers should purchase their fuel from a reputable dealer and use a high quality such as Shell..”
> 
> ...


Very generic and lacking any substance.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Not to mention they are flat out refusing to give me the MSDS. 

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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Not to mention they are flat out refusing to give me the MSDS.
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


I'm a "safety guy" and I know for a fact that they cannot withhold an MSDS from anyone. The whole purpose of an MSDS is to inform people of what's in the products they are working with, what can harm them and how to protect themselves (PPE), etc. Never once have I come across an MSDS that lists "secret ingredients." I can understand that they don't want their formula out there, but to withhold an MSDS is just asking for trouble on their part.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

plasticplant said:


> I'm a "safety guy" and I know for a fact that they cannot withhold an MSDS from anyone. The whole purpose of an MSDS is to inform people of what's in the products they are working with, what can harm them and how to protect themselves (PPE), etc. Never once have I come across an MSDS that lists "secret ingredients." I can understand that they don't want their formula out there, but to withhold an MSDS is just asking for trouble on their part.


That's what I thought at first, but then I looked up the OSHA regulations, and they only have to have it available for employees. They are not required to give it out, at least from what I read, unless it's different for fuel. 


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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

Luigi said:


> That's what I thought at first, but then I looked up the OSHA regulations, and they only have to have it available for employees. They are not required to give it out, at least from what I read, unless it's different for fuel.
> 
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


If we are coming in contact with it, we should be able to know what's in it.


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## hulkss (Jan 30, 2014)

*Nordic Diesel Fuel*

-17F predicted here tomorrow night. I'm going to fill with "Nordic Diesel" from SuperAmerica.


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## Tomko (Jun 1, 2013)

That stuff looks interesting. 


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## PanJet (Jun 18, 2013)

hulkss said:


> -17F predicted here tomorrow night. I'm going to fill with "Nordic Diesel" from SuperAmerica.


It might be the same stuff, but our SA station calls it "Yukon Diesel," at least on their advertisement board.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Update:
After trying to get the MSDS sheets from shell, or information on the additive, or the gel point, and coming up with nothing, I finally gave up. I had told the station owner that I was not going to sign their release and get my money until I had gotten the info I was looking for, so I emailed him today, explaining that I did not get the info I was looking for, so I was giving up, and would just stay away from Shell fuel. Well apparently that was the wrong thing to say, because the response I got was 
"That response has changed our mind about offering you payment for your the trouble you had with your car back in January. As you know we were never taking responsibility for the issues you had with your car, however we were still willing to pay because we wanted you to be happy and to remain a Shell customer."

FML. Way to go Shell. You give me an offer, then you decide to take it back just because of a statement I made. At least since I haven't signed the release form, I am free to tell everyone how terrible Shell is now. I have filed a complaint with the state of Wisconsin, and I will also be filing one with the BBB. That is all.


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## VtTD (Nov 5, 2013)

This might help although it appears 75,000 gallons must be present which I think is like 10 tanker trucks. May not be common.. I'm not sure. If it is... maybe your fire department has it on file. 

EPCRA Sections 311-312 | EPCRA Tier I and Tier II Reporting | US EPA


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## titanman2789 (Oct 27, 2013)

I always use shell fuel.. Never had a problem. 

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## KpaxFAQ (Sep 1, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Update:
> After trying to get the MSDS sheets from shell, or information on the additive, or the gel point, and coming up with nothing, I finally gave up. I had told the station owner that I was not going to sign their release and get my money until I had gotten the info I was looking for, so I emailed him today, explaining that I did not get the info I was looking for, so I was giving up, and would just stay away from Shell fuel. Well apparently that was the wrong thing to say, because the response I got was
> "That response has changed our mind about offering you payment for your the trouble you had with your car back in January. As you know we were never taking responsibility for the issues you had with your car, however we were still willing to pay because we wanted you to be happy and to remain a Shell customer."
> 
> FML. Way to go Shell. You give me an offer, then you decide to take it back just because of a statement I made. At least since I haven't signed the release form, I am free to tell everyone how terrible Shell is now. I have filed a complaint with the state of Wisconsin, and I will also be filing one with the BBB. That is all.


What more could you expect out of the corner gas station acting on good faith? 

That would of been my response too, don't want free money we have no reason to give you? Take a hike! Good for them, the customer isn't always right.

shell diesel in my area comes from sunoco. The regional supplier who supplies all of those stations gets their fuel from them. Brand at the pump doesn't always mean everything.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> Update:
> After trying to get the MSDS sheets from shell, or information on the additive, or the gel point, and coming up with nothing, I finally gave up. I had told the station owner that I was not going to sign their release and get my money until I had gotten the info I was looking for, so I emailed him today, explaining that I did not get the info I was looking for, so I was giving up, and would just stay away from Shell fuel. Well apparently that was the wrong thing to say, because the response I got was
> "That response has changed our mind about offering you payment for your the trouble you had with your car back in January. As you know we were never taking responsibility for the issues you had with your car, however we were still willing to pay because we wanted you to be happy and to remain a Shell customer."
> 
> FML. Way to go Shell. You give me an offer, then you decide to take it back just because of a statement I made. At least since I haven't signed the release form, I am free to tell everyone how terrible Shell is now. I have filed a complaint with the state of Wisconsin, and I will also be filing one with the BBB. That is all.


I have had success with BBB complaints. Seems like companies take them seriously. You could also send a quick letter to the AG - they can route your issue to the proper regulatory agency. It may make a difference.


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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

Sorry,
I agree with the fuel suppliers approach on this one.

This is a rather classic example of 'Burning the bridge before you crossed it'
You know I'm right......should've taken the check and run......bitch later......this is a life lesson.

BBB and AG will be shown your response, and close the case.

Rob


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

Yes I agree that I didn't quite think that one through before I said it, but still. Shell does not want to work with me on this at all. There is very simple information that I want, which is the gel point of the fuel with the additives. I would prefer to buy my fuel from a supplier who is more transparent regarding simple information like that. 

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## Robby (Mar 1, 2013)

I understand what you were trying to accomplish.

But your timing was wrong.......Bird in the Hand beats Two in the Bush and all that stuff.

For future reference, taking on a oil company is usually less successful than taking on the I.R.S.
You'll get squashed like a bug......Visualize that drawing of a mouse flipping an eagle the bird moments before becoming lunch.....you were the mouse.

Rob


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## plasticplant (Mar 26, 2013)

Ouch. I use Shell almost exclusively. No bio, not problems thus far. I think I would have taken the money and ran.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Yeah, I do agree with others, however, if this station (and other stations being supplied with this fuel) are selling an improperly treated winter blend, then it should receive at least some attention.


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

I was able to get the MSDS sheets finally. Unfortunately there is no info on the winterized diesel itself regarding the freezing point. Does anyone know of a way I can have the gel point tested? Maybe a lab that can do it? 

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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

put it in the freezer


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

boraz said:


> put it in the freezer


Lol, I thought of that, but unfortunately that won't get me to -25F

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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> I was able to get the MSDS sheets finally. Unfortunately there is no info on the winterized diesel itself regarding the freezing point. Does anyone know of a way I can have the gel point tested? Maybe a lab that can do it?
> 
> Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App


Maybe these guys. Not sure if they do individuals, but maybe they could recommend.

http://www.intertek.com/petroleum/testing/diesel-fuel/


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## Luigi (Jun 16, 2013)

This basically says I have no legal grounds against them since it's not regulated that they add anything or post anything regarding it...End of story I guess.


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## diesel (Jun 8, 2013)

Luigi said:


> View attachment 67065
> 
> This basically says I have no legal grounds against them since it's not regulated that they add anything or post anything regarding it...End of story I guess.


Was worth a shot


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