# Engine Dimensions?



## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

I'll try to find time to measure for you. It could be a few days or a week though. What is the project car? I could give you a rough idea based on that. The Gen 2 is pretty compact, especially compared to Gen 1 ( I have both ). It's a great little engine. 

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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> I'll try to find time to measure for you. It could be a few days or a week though. What is the project car? I could give you a rough idea based on that. The Gen 2 is pretty compact, especially compared to Gen 1 ( I have both ).  It's a great little engine.


Heya, thanks for saying you'll take a look for me!
a week isn't much of an issue - but if anyone wants to beat this guy to it - I'd be glad to have dimensions sooner, but really not a big deal otherwise

I'd actually love to stick it in a Smart ForTwo!
The diesels of those are 0.8L (3 cylinders), 150lbs, and only on earlier models (known as the 450 cdi, the 451 is the modern version we know of in the US since '07), and was available in Canada as MB never went through EPA testing (amongst other things they left out).. 
I was actually planning on doing a diesel swap with a legally imported (and conformed) 450 by going across the border for a weekend to gank an engine - but the available one recently sold.. While I was debating the whole thing I've been looking at other engines that may be able to squeeze in there instead (the power of the orig Smart diesel is less than thrilling).. could be a great little swap  ... (or am I a fool?)


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## Taxman (Aug 10, 2017)

I have no idea why the specifications page at gmauthority.com has no weight or dimensions for the MDE. 

I do seem to recall seeing a 233lb spec for the LE2, and a magazine article said the 1.6 diesel added something like 35lb to the weight of the Cruze, but I don't know if the added weight of the 9sp was included in that, and I don't know what if any accessories are included in the 233lb.


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

Taxman said:


> I do seem to recall seeing a 233lb spec for the LE2, and a magazine article said the 1.6 diesel added something like 35lb to the weight of the Cruze, but I don't know if the added weight of the 9sp was included in that, and I don't know what if any accessories are included in the 233lb.


Very interesting! ~250lbs is certainly within a good range that a smart could handle.. Compare against 500lbs for a Cummins R2.8
A custom subframe will be needed no matter what..

Also, just as a side note.. the goal is actually to run biodiesel (that I plan on making myself - I do not want to discuss the process nor quality of such things here, I am well aware most mfgrs recommend max B20 max due to quality issues w/ bio) .. and as such I was looking for the best mpg, which happened to come from the smallest engine in the smallest car  (but it's not technically available in the US)


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## Taxman (Aug 10, 2017)

Oops, the LE2 is said to weigh 98kg, or 216lb, "ready to install" so the aluminum block diesel would be closer to 250lb. 
That's what I get for going by memory.

I wonder how much the 3 cylinder 1.4L TDI weighs, and if it's available in Canadian salvage yards.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Well, it's going to require some serious effort, if even possible to fit in a Smart car. You'll spend way more in the process.. I could suggest perhaps you just get a Cruze Diesel? I've had tanks well over 50MPG on the stock car. 

As for Bio Diesel, you'll likely have emmissions system problems, but it's not impossible.

I might suggest you look at compact diesel engines in used tractors. My tractor has an engine about the size of the diesel version of the smart car. Making it turbo would likely be easier than cramming a much bigger engine in that tight space. 

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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Well, it's going to require some serious effort, if even possible to fit in a Smart car.


Project Car.. all caps? 



MRO1791 said:


> I could suggest perhaps you just get a Cruze Diesel? I've had tanks well over 50MPG on the stock car.


 I have an electric project car in my garage, and my driveway is tiny (really close to the street).. but the Smart fits! (Cruze would not)



MRO1791 said:


> I might suggest you look at compact diesel engines in used tractors. My tractor has an engine about the size of the diesel version of the smart car. Making it turbo would likely be easier than cramming a much bigger engine in that tight space.


The issue I was having with many of the more industrial type (I've looked at nearly every major diesel brand at this point) is that their weight and size are quite large as they are built to a more robust standard.. You say 'Compact' but the power:size factor starts becoming a concern early - and this is a reason I'm requesting info on dimensions as there isn't really a datasheet publicly available of the LH7 for me to compare.


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## Taxman (Aug 10, 2017)

Apparently you can cram a 400lb K20 Honda in there if you try hard enough:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Vxu2TyvE8


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

There was a MR2 swap that was done (into a 450), Engine + tranny are ~400lbs, dry

Roadster is more like a 450 from what I understand (uses same sub-frame/engine cradle). I'm likely going to use a 451 as parts in the US are plentiful.

There's hope in every corner! .. but some corners you have to cut to make fit!


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

I asked if the seller of the engine could do the measurements for me - but the response was: high volume warehouse, can't/won't
I will wait for MRO1791's measurements


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

So.. I signed up for a single day 'subscription' of some (the only?) website which has a service manual for the car..
and I am mass downloading all the info.. every torque value etc

there was some info on dimensions..



Engine Block Height
220.25 mm8.67 in



Cylinder Head Height
127 ± 0.15 mm5.000 ± 0.006 in
so, that would give us a height of ~13.6" without the oilpan nor the valve cover + fuel lines etc

~25gb worth of data + images on the entire car, not just the engine (and both engines) (actually, may be half that, the downloader is processing cache stuff, but the folder itself is about half that)
some of the best $10 I ever spent

I can walk others through on how to gank this info if interested, fairly standard though.. I am sure most of the torque specs and such, if they havent made their way here yet, they will in the future..


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

If I may ask, who's selling a new diesel LH7, and what's the cost. It's a great engine, I could see it working in other applications.


Noxz said:


> I asked if the seller of the engine could do the measurements for me - but the response was: high volume warehouse, can't/won't
> I will wait for MRO1791's measurements


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> If I may ask, who's selling a new diesel LH7, and what's the cost. It's a great engine, I could see it working in other applications.


There is only one on ebay (please dont gank it from under me until I make sure dimensions are too far out for a swap)
only 3 miles on it
$3500 + $210 shipping
looks like "all" sensors are on it, but wires cut near the connectors
missing throttle body, and from the turbo on back (no cat)
no ECU, but appears seller may have one, but I am actually looking at other alternatives..

Still waiting on those rough measurements


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## blackbird (Nov 6, 2017)

Noxz said:


> There is only one on ebay...
> looks like "all" sensors are on it, but wires cut near the connectors
> missing throttle body, and from the turbo on back (no cat)
> no ECU...


If you're interested in a swap and haven't done one before, that sounds like a recipe for pain. You'd want to find a wrecked car with the intact powertrain as there will likely be a lot of little stuff you'll need and the basic engine and with a hacked harness is going to have to buying a lot miscellaneous stuff that will add up to big bucks. It's also nice having the donor car to see how everything goes together before pulling parts off it.


I'm not near my 2nd-gen so I can't measure anything right now but will say the new 1.6L is a very refined and great diesel engine. Although _relatively_ small and much lighter than the first-gen 2.0L diesel used in the US/Canada market cars, it's still a lot of weight compared to a the small Smart powertrain, especially if you try to retain all the emission equipment.

The GM media site shows the manual diesel is about 200-250 pounds heavier than manual gas engine cars (I'm guessing the 200 pound numbers for the sedans are a more accurate representation of the overall weight difference as the manual hatches have the RS package body work and heavier wheel/tire combo).

It's always great to see interesting projects but does sound like a lot of work and money, and beyond having a neat one-off car, the first-gen Fortwo with way more weight hanging off the back end doesn't sound like the best idea for driving dynamics.


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

blackbird said:


> having the donor car to see how everything goes together before pulling parts off it.


I have the entire service manual at this point. I know how every bolt should go, etc. Even the sensor diagnostics and so interfacing with them (like I said, an alternative ECU not the factory one) should not be difficult with all of the information on hand. I am also very electronically apt. Possibly sniffing/scoping a stock one while driving could reveal some specifics such as the pre/post injection sequences - but there are also peer reviewed papers on this subject..




blackbird said:


> it's still a lot of weight compared to a the small Smart powertrain, especially if you try to retain all the emission equipment.


a bit of the emissions equip should be hunted down.. Afterall, this is for biodiesel with the goal of sustainability



blackbird said:


> It's always great to see interesting projects but does sound like a lot of work and money, and beyond having a neat one-off car, the first-gen Fortwo with way more weight hanging off the back end doesn't sound like the best idea for driving dynamics.


I'm actually looking at second gens (451) at this point due to US availability. They are rated at ~500lbs of payload (the bottleneck has been pointed out at the wheels) and I dont think the additional weight will have much of a factor - as has been pointed out before people have crammed in many many different types of motors in the little guys. Sure fab work will be needed, but that's part of the process.

I really do not like settling with options that are available/proven and was once told that if I have the time and money, why not build the car I want?


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## johnmo (Mar 2, 2017)

Noxz said:


> (please dont gank it from under me until I make sure dimensions are too far out for a swap)


:biggrin:

Because there are dozens of us with one-year-old diesel-equipped Cruzes thinking, "You know what, I need to buy a spare engine to have around just in case."


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

johnmo said:


> Because there are dozens of us with one-year-old diesel-equipped Cruzes thinking, "You know what, I need to buy a spare engine to have around just in case."


Those are my thoughts exactly! 

But I would guess everyone is still under warranty?


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Noxz said:


> There is only one on ebay (please dont gank it from under me until I make sure dimensions are too far out for a swap)
> only 3 miles on it
> $3500 + $210 shipping
> looks like "all" sensors are on it, but wires cut near the connectors
> ...


There was an insurance auction car a few months back, that car had minimal damage and I seem to recall was about $7500. That price with cut wires is a bit high if you ask me. Why the need to cut wires when they have connectors? That would make me a bit cautious about the history on this one. Taking on a custom ECU, that is quite the challenge. You definitely have much more time available than I do.. I'd recommend you work with the original ECU, I actually think they aren't too expensive. The Gen 1 is less than $200 new, if I recall correctly.. I'd expect similar for Gen 2. I've done vehicle restoration and many projects, these things eat up time in a massive way, and it's the unforseen issues that blow up the size of any project. If this is your first swap, take what you think it's going to require in time and money and multiply that by about 10.. that is likely a more realistic estimate. 

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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Why the need to cut wires when they have connectors? That would make me a bit cautious about the history on this one.


Maybe simply for a quick extraction? Imagine how much work is involved in removing a complete wiring harness - with very little return.



MRO1791 said:


> I'd recommend you work with the original ECU, I actually think they aren't too expensive. The Gen 1 is less than $200 new, if I recall correctly.. I'd expect similar for Gen 2


Sure, having a complete car in front of me to do the swap could certainly make things easier as everything is there..
I think that initially not have any of the extras may actually help a basic idle going easier than not.. consider an immobilizer where a specific key is required (or to learn a new key, and thus a reprogrammer needed).. or any number of things that are specific to the car setup - not the bare engine..
The Cruze ECM (2018, 1k miles, diesel compatible according to the description - same seller) is $100 - would certainly be worth it if I had everything else.

It all comes down to: What is available?
Like going to the hardware store to get a certain bolt but they only have the size bigger or smaller.. what should you do? change your design to accept the available hardware? Which is sort of what I am doing..


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Quick extraction as in a theft, perhaps.. I've removed and installed engines.  It's not too hard to unplug sensors and retain the wire harness. Sure it adds some time, but not that much. 

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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

A key program is significantly easier and cheaper than most of your proposed project. I don't mean to discourage, it's cool you want to take on such a challenge, however the odds fo success diminish if you go in without a decent idea of what it's going to take to make this work. 

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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

Welp, going back to the original topic of the thread.. 

It'll come down to the dimensions - for my proposed application.

If it seems like it can even remotely fit then I will likely go with it - I haven't come across too many other US available small diesels that even approach the power stated for the Cruze.


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

RockAuto has a new ECM for $179


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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

I'm trying to visually see if there are any differences between the LH7 and the B16DTH.. images are showing the same exact thing.. I only bring it up because it is another search term I can throw in for possibly more data, but many of the sites returned are not in English so it's slightly difficult to extract any of the information..

No dimensions returned from initial searches..


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Ok, height 26 inches, width 22inches, length 27inches. I'll attach pictures.























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## Noxz (Jun 21, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Ok, height 26 inches, width 22inches, length 27inches.


Oh!
Thank you so much!


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## ponyboy (May 18, 2018)

This is such a tough idea lol. How are you going to integrate the DPF and adblue injection into such a tiny platform? The stock ECU won't run the car without them. If you go aftermarket ECU are there any capable of running such a complicated engine? The piezo nozzles can inject fuel up to thirteen times during the same cycle, I'd be shocked if an aftermarket ECU were capable of doing that. These cars are brand new and rare, and you'd probably need a full wrecked donor car to get all the components. I love the concept of a Smart car with decent diesel power, I just think this is probably a very difficult way to go about it.

Have a look at the 1.9L MTDI engine, a fully mechanical semi modern diesel that will run full biodiesel to boot. Bigger than the 1.6 most likely but no emissions or electrical crap to stuff in.

Also check out the three cylinder VW Polo TDI motor, I think it was 1.4 L. Should be enough old or wrecked Polo diesels in Europe that the motor should be obtainable. Or maybe just import a Polo TDI lol.


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## Binod Kurian (Jul 23, 2020)

I might suggest you look at compact diesel engines in used tractors. My tractor has an engine about the size of the diesel version of the smart car. Making it turbo would likely be easier than cramming a much bigger engine in that tight space.


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