# I didn't know DEF went bad until tonight



## karmatourer (Jul 6, 2018)

*I didn't know DEF spoiled until tonight*

How to read the expiration date.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgwmaAqAXwA


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

If you buy the Walmart brand you don't need to decode the date. It's exactly the same as the expensive stuff, only cheaper. 

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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

But it from the truckstops. Cheaper and no expiration date to read.


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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

It does go bad, but will last much longer if stored properly. 
It should be stored in a cool, dry place away from direct sunlight. 

That being said, I have never paid much attention to the jugs I was buying at the store. 
Never had an issue yet with the fluid I have used.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

I buy mine a few 2.5 gal jugs at a time, from Walmart, so they ship it for free and I don't have to go pick it up from the store - plus, I then have it on hand for when we need it.

It sits in my basement, so plenty good for storage.


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## soutthpaw (Dec 14, 2018)

snowwy66 said:


> But it from the truckstops. Cheaper and no expiration date to read.


Go through the semi fueling lane and the DEF is actually in a separate fuel pump just like gas or diesel. Easiest way to fill by far.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Certainly a truck stop is an easy way to get DEF... Assuming you have a local truck stop. There are far more Walmart locations than truck stops. 

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## TDCruze (Sep 26, 2014)

soutthpaw said:


> Go through the semi fueling lane and the DEF is actually in a separate fuel pump just like gas or diesel. Easiest way to fill by far.


We don't really have this in my immediate area, but will be trying this now with the gen II having the filler outside the car. 
I would guess it is a lot cheaper than the jugs. 
I was to afraid to spill in the trunk on the gen I.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

Yup, def has always had an expiry date. Rule of thumb is 2yrs stored properly. 1yr is a safer bet. Different manufacturers may have variances. Freezing shortens it's life as well.



Just wait til Amazon sells their own, it'll probably only be $3.50/gallon with free 2 day shipping.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

I think it's $2.50 at the truckstop

VS. how much at walmart. 

And you only fill what you need. 

VS. having to store the rest.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

snowwy66 said:


> I think it's $2.50 at the truckstop
> 
> VS. how much at walmart.
> 
> ...


Which is why you just make sure you don't have to store any.


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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

MP81 said:


> Which is why you just make sure you don't have to store any.


And how do you accomplish that? Because you all seem to buying and storing.


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

All mine that are stored are unopened.

I just make sure I know the full 2.5 gallons will fit in the tank when I pour one in. It's really quite simple...


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## Jacque8080 (Oct 31, 2017)

soutthpaw said:


> Go through the semi fueling lane and the DEF is actually in a separate fuel pump just like gas or diesel. Easiest way to fill by far.


Drive through the truck stop backwards since our DEF filler is on the passenger side. And a lot of trucks have the DEF filler on the driver's side.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

overthinking it

theres no cases where 'bad def' was the cause of a malfunction


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## karmatourer (Jul 6, 2018)

boraz said:


> overthinking it
> 
> theres no cases where 'bad def' was the cause of a malfunction


You can't possibly know that.
Here's 1 example of you being wrong: ​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFj-SYN8l-Y


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

boraz said:


> overthinking it
> 
> theres no cases where 'bad def' was the cause of a malfunction


LOL WTF....Seriously? I've had more instances than I can count with 2 hands where bad DEF was involved


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

karmatourer said:


> You can't possibly know that.
> Here's 1 example of you being wrong: ​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFj-SYN8l-Y


no mention of how the 'bad def' failed??? they test it with a refractometer? could it be coincidence that crud from his system plugged up same time he added the dreaded 'bad def'??

he doesnt show the 'bad def' expiry date in the video? hmmmm

its the same story over and over, 'bad def' and never any proof of said 'bad def'


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Ma v e n said:


> LOL WTF....Seriously? I've had more instances than I can count with 2 hands where bad DEF was involved


ok, gimme 10 of them


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## karmatourer (Jul 6, 2018)

boraz said:


> no mention of how the 'bad def' failed??? they test it with a refractometer? could it be coincidence that crud from his system plugged up same time he added the dreaded 'bad def'??
> 
> he doesnt show the 'bad def' expiry date in the video? hmmmm
> 
> its the same story over and over, 'bad def' and never any proof of said 'bad def'


You're right,pure coincidence.


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## karmatourer (Jul 6, 2018)

boraz said:


> ok, gimme 10 of them


Has google or any other search engine made it to Canada yet?


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

karmatourer said:


> You're right,pure coincidence.


notice how he doesnt show his bill?

no sensors were replaced under warranty or anything?

warranty work doesnt pay anything, so mechanic goes on a fishing expedition to blame it on 'bad def' so he can charge a bunch of hours to the ignorant customer

or it was 'bad def'

still waiting to see an actual time when the def was actually bad

you know how field mechanics test for def? drain it into empty water bottle and shake it, yep its def, move on to whats really wrong with the vehicle.

cuz its never the def.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

boraz said:


> you know how field mechanics test for def? drain it into empty water bottle and shake it, yep its def, move on to whats really wrong with the vehicle.
> 
> cuz its never the def.


Except for when it is bad def.Ive had DEF that was as little .010 RI/SG below specification set trouble codes for def quality and place vehicle in tamper/limp mode. GM spec for DEF refractive index/specific gravity is 1.310-1.384. I have never found any GM DEF that ever tested over 1.320 on my Reichert refractometer. That's a really tight range for acceptable DEF. It essentially a difference of one percentage point urea content.

If you're trying to tell me that GM diesels won't go into tamper mode and set DTCs and speed restrictions based on DEF quality...You're full is sh!t. And I make plenty of money under warranty, dont you worry.
Only time I ever push to make a DEF issue non warranty is if fluid isn't clear. If you're tank is full of blue, or orange or diesel...Well you're a moron and you're paying for it. If it's clear and even remotely smells of urea GM pays


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

Hopefully my purely anecdotal statements and plebeian grease monkey status are worthy of further interaction with a personage carrying whatever exalted status you do.


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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Ma v e n said:


> Except for when it is bad def.Ive had DEF that was as little .010 RI/SG below specification set trouble codes for def quality and place vehicle in tamper/limp mode. GM spec for DEF refractive index/specific gravity is 1.310-1.384. I have never found any GM DEF that ever tested over 1.320 on my Reichert refractometer. That's a really tight range for acceptable DEF. It essentially a difference of one percentage point urea content.
> 
> If you're trying to tell me that GM diesels won't go into tamper mode and set DTCs and speed restrictions based on DEF quality...You're full is sh!t. And I make plenty of money under warranty, dont you worry.
> Only time I ever push to make a DEF issue non warranty is if fluid isn't clear. If you're tank is full of blue, or orange or diesel...Well you're a moron and you're paying for it. If it's clear and even remotely smells of urea GM pays


people buy gm def? rofl


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

boraz said:


> Ma v e n said:
> 
> 
> > Except for when it is bad def.Ive had DEF that was as little .010 RI/SG below specification set trouble codes for def quality and place vehicle in tamper/limp mode. GM spec for DEF refractive index/specific gravity is 1.310-1.384. I have never found any GM DEF that ever tested over 1.320 on my Reichert refractometer. That's a really tight range for acceptable DEF. It essentially a difference of one percentage point urea content.
> ...


Of course that's your response. 

Yes, lots of people buy GM DEF, not everyone feels comfortable working on or performing "maintenance" on their car. This is why gas stations still have full service lanes, and why many auto shops do 50, 75 or 100+ oil changes a day. And you can be pretty sure that many of those people who pay for oil changes, also get DEF tank filled during service.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

Ma v e n said:


> Except for when it is bad def.Ive had DEF that was as little .010 RI/SG below specification set trouble codes for def quality and place vehicle in tamper/limp mode. GM spec for DEF refractive index/specific gravity is 1.310-1.384. I have never found any GM DEF that ever tested over 1.320 on my Reichert refractometer. That's a really tight range for acceptable DEF. It essentially a difference of one percentage point urea content.
> 
> If you're trying to tell me that GM diesels won't go into tamper mode and set DTCs and speed restrictions based on DEF quality...You're full is sh!t. And I make plenty of money under warranty, dont you worry.
> Only time I ever push to make a DEF issue non warranty is if fluid isn't clear. If you're tank is full of blue, or orange or diesel...Well you're a moron and you're paying for it. If it's clear and even remotely smells of urea GM pays


Boraz is very sure of himself on this and he lives in a near artic tundra in Canada. DEF shelf life is affected by temperature, the warmer the shorter life it has. It can be stored infefinitly if frozen. The specifications for the fluid and for proper operation are pretty tight. I do have to wonder if most cases of bad fluid is from people putting something other than DEF in that tank. It seems it's impossible to "idiot proof" anything, there is apparently always some idiots who will find a way! 

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## snowwy66 (Nov 5, 2017)

I've never heard of bad def. 

But I do know that's the code that pops up for when something is wrong. The one time i got the code. It was some stupid dpf thing that just had to be reset. On a Freightliner. Kind of like the oil mileage counter.

I don't know how big the tank is at the truckstops. But considering most of the semi's on the road these days are 2010 or newer. The tank sells A LOT of def.


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## karmatourer (Jul 6, 2018)

MRO1791 said:


> Boraz is very sure of himself on this and he lives in a near artic tundra in Canada. DEF shelf life is affected by temperature, the warmer the shorter life it has. It can be stored infefinitly if frozen. The specifications for the fluid and for proper operation are pretty tight. I do have to wonder if most cases of bad fluid is from people putting something other than DEF in that tank. It seems it's impossible to "idiot proof" anything, there is apparently always some idiots who will find a way!
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


Whether it goes bad isn't the issue. The issue is he says it doesn't cause issues if used when bad.


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## Dieselfever (Feb 23, 2017)

DEF? I don't need no stinkin DEF.


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## MRO1791 (Sep 2, 2016)

karmatourer said:


> Whether it goes bad isn't the issue. The issue is he says it doesn't cause issues if used when bad.


If "bad" means it's basically distilled water, sure that is not likely to damage anything. When the DEF breaks down if gets less effective, because it's closer to water.. however if a contaminated source is put in the tank, damage is certainly possible. Putting the wrong oil in the engine can damage the DPF when only a tiny amount of oil is burned in the engine. I don't see why the SCR catalyst would not be subject to damage, then there is the pump, the injector, heater, level sensor, etc. 

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## boraz (Aug 29, 2013)

Ma v e n said:


> Of course that's your response.
> 
> Yes, lots of people buy GM DEF, not everyone feels comfortable working on or performing "maintenance" on their car. This is why gas stations still have full service lanes, and why many auto shops do 50, 75 or 100+ oil changes a day. And you can be pretty sure that many of those people who pay for oil changes, also get DEF tank filled during service.


im still waiting for 9 more


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

boraz said:


> Ma v e n said:
> 
> 
> > Of course that's your response.
> ...


So you were unable to infer from my response that in my experience every warrantable case of fluid related faults on GM diesels was from improper urea concentration?

Okay. Every case of warrantable vehicle concern I've come across related to reductant fluid quality tests has involved DEF that clear and free of debris, but with a low urea concentration, typically only 1-2% too low, indicating it was very unlikely a case of pure water being added.

You still haven't explained how DEF can't cause issues...


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## MP81 (Jul 20, 2015)

DEF legitimately cannot be a different concentration, by law, or else it cannot be called DEF.


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## Ma v e n (Oct 8, 2018)

Well...It can't carry the approval stamp if it doesn't, it can still be called whatever it wants though. By law you can't legitimately exceed the speed posted on the signs...But it happens all-day everyday.

**** happens, stuff breaks down, things get handled improperly, companies lie, the world's and imperfect place screws fall out, etc, etc...


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## Scottydont1987! (Jul 28, 2017)

I have been working on semi trucks for 15 years now and have seen the new emissions roll in. I work on different types of engines but the aftertreatment system is the same in everything. I have dealt with tons of DEF, DOC, DPF, and SCR faults. DEF quality is measured one by the DEF refractometer and needs to be at 32%. When we see a quality fault we do test the DEF, but I have never seen DEF be the problem. Yes DEF can be contaminated but that is the only failure I have seen. I do think DEF can be bad but it would be from poor storage. Biggest problem with DEF it can freeze but depending on how much and how long will be the deciding factor it being bad. Your DEF will freeze in your tank. That is why you have DEF line heaters and DEF Tank heaters. The only way the ECM or in most cases the ACM can sense the quality is from your inlet and outlet Nox sensors. If we get a fault for quality low we check DEF for the 32%, DEF doser for being clogged and spray pattern, DEF decomp tube for DEF Build up, and if those are good we change the outlet Nox. Then if the fault is back we change the inlet Nox sensor. The reason we go after the sensors is because they can fail in range and give a faulty number just like O2 sensors. If those are replaced and the fault is still coming on the SCR is next. Its last because it costs the most. The shop I work at is a leasing company so the customer doesn't pay for anything, so we are trying to fix it at the lowest cost. NOW I do know semi trucks have ECM and ACM Updates all the time! Like 45 or so. I am unsure if the Cruzes have those updates. These updates tell the ECM/ACM not to be so picky on certain faults because they are throw false check engine lights. I would also add we use Blue DEF from Peak.


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## HondaTech2016 (Apr 20, 2017)

All the more reason for someone to delete this mess.


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